@@simo-rn2tw he didnt walk in on vader killing all the younglings though, he never even actually witnessed it. He did however walk in while Jason was torturing Ben and knew he killed his wife.
Really don't blame Luke. Besides, from what I've seen in other videos, Mara fought him to the death because she sensed Jacen would not be returning to the light.
@@rossfitz8287 Actually yes, he did... in numerous canon novels Luke was given video evidence from various sources of the youngling massacre at his father's hands.
Watching this video and how you described Jason's story made me realize that it actually mirrors Count Dooku's in a lot of ways. Both were tempted by the dark side at their lowest point, both willingly gave themselves over to it and joined the Sith due to a belief that it was necessary for the greater good of the galaxy only to bring more pain and suffering, and both managed to kill the good within themselves so completely that even Luke thought they were impossible to save.
@@VengeanceN7 I consider Qui-gon and Obi-wan to be honorary members of the Skywalker family, yes. Dooku, not so much. Dooku was certainly an influential figure in their history due to his rivalry with Anakin but he never had any kind of familial connection to him.
Yeah, Luke’s belief in his father was central to the story. He was the only one who saw the potential for redemption in Darth Vader, even when everyone else had written him off irredeemable. That unwavering hope and connection were what ultimately saved Anakin.
Yeah but...I mean I understand why Ben and Yoda thought the way they did. The dude killed gradeschoolers who looked up to him like he was captain America with a lighsaber... I mean, I get it, especially since I'm a 90s pre-episode one star wars kid. The orginal trilogy vader was much more mysterious, and you never saw him do his most vadery stuff, but let's be honest here...if you look at everything vader did without fan-glasses on can you really say chucking palpatine down that shaft "redeemed" him? Sure the text of the movie says it does but, divorced from that, just going on ethical philosophy... was that really enough even if it killed him in the process? All that said, yes, Luke was right to hope. It's akways right to.
That's the major difference between Vader and Jacen. Jacen was an empathetic soul who willingly went down the dark path to save the future and his daughter. The dark side DID corrupt him, but his conviction to save his daughter's future was absolute. There was no way Luke could bring Jacen back, but in the grand scheme Jacen's mission was successful.
@@Omnipulsarit's much more complicated. Luke himself said it was something more than just a vision. It was like something was controlling him. Remember, The Emperor can try to control those he contacted with and Luke was exposed to him on DS2. So no, it wasn't just a dream.
That's very true, i intended to give a like at the end of the video since it was a nice topic and all but i had to force crush this like button when Disney was mentioned 🤣🤣
I think that Luke was wise here in part because I genuinely believe that he recognized that he couldn’t be impartial. He already wrongfully killed Lumia out of vengeance and he knew that if he were to go after Jacen he would likely do the same thing. While I do partially believe that his decision wa tainted by his own emotions I think that he had the wherewithal to know that he did not have what it took to kill Jacen and maintain his purity. Also while I haven’t read many of the legacy books I think that Luke recognized that based on their bond if anyone could see good in him and potentially and give him any form of redemption it would be Jana.
At first Luke absolutely hoped Jacen could be turned back, but by the end it got to the point where Jaina Solo was being trained specifically to assasinate her brother.
Jacen was the original MCU Thanos, but more right. He had accurate visions of Darth Krayt sitting on the throne of balance and running a rule of one empire, and decided he would do whatever it took to prevent that outcome. While he may have done some terrible things that cost his life and thousands of others, his actions utterly retconned Krayt's reign, likely saved billions, and put his light sided daughter on the throne of balance. This resulted in Abeloth being released, but also Darth Krayt being exposed early, and being spiritually wounded fighting her. Jacen pulled a Leto Atrides and protected the future by uniting everyone against himself. The ultimate and most painful of sacrifices.
@@victorjohansen6038but he did. Both Paul and Leto II were monsters but they didn't do one thing - torture their family. Yes, Leto II killed Alya but only because she was posessed by Baron Harkonnen beyond salvation, but he never touched other Atreides. Jacen Solo, on the contrary, tried to destroy his entire family among the other galaxy members. He was much more of a monster, far worse even than Palpatine.
Really find Caedus interesting would love more videos about him and his philosophy he seems to have a lot more depth to his character than any disney star wars has created
Disney : Luke almost kills his sleeping nephew because he had a bad dream where (if we take into account the lesson that Luke learned in the original trilogy), kill his sleeping nephew because he MIGHT turn to the Darkside to lead a new galactic empire that was yet to be. And afterwards is unwilling to help stop the empire because what good is one guy with a “lazer sword” going to do, by doing that? Lucas’ Luke: Learns not to blindly react to dreams and visions, especially based on fear, since the future isn’t set in stone, and since playing into them might create a self filling prophecy. Then helps bring down a well entrenched galactic empire with a lazer sword. Faces off against a powerful man of pure evil. And saves that guy’s right hand man who turned out to be his own father and everyone believed was beyond redemption, not just to stop tyranny, but because friends and family matter. Legends Luke: Lucas’ Luke plus+ some. Goes after his nephew, who turned evil of his own volition, and helping to establish a new empire after successfully co-opting the galaxy’s military forces. A nephew who possibly knew more about the Force than anyone that he had ever known, while having near Chosen One level Force potential himself. His nephew who wasn’t beyond trying to kill his parents, his uncle, torturing his cousin, manipulating friends to start wars and even killing his own uncle and mentor’s wife. A nephew who did that all based on a bad dream or vision. Again Disney Luke: Almost decides to kill his sleeping nephew because he had a bad dream, in which his nephew MIGHT turn to the Darkside and lead a new galactic empire that was yet to be.
Exactly it didn’t help Disney version of the nephew wasn’t much of a threat throughout the three movies due to him getting his ass whoop. Disney version don’t really fit well in Lucas version.
Good summary but you got a couple parts wrong. Mara ambushed Caedus fully intending to finish him on her own when she found out he was working with Lumiya. The novel Sacrifice makes it quite clear she was acting on her own so the rest of the Jedi wouldn't have to deal with the emotional fallout of killing a family member and genuine galactic hero in the past, she'd take on the burden of ending him herself and almost, almost pulled it off. For Caedus it was murder but not premedidated, he was fighting for his life in the moment too and I think that nuance is important. I agree with your general take that Caedus didn't want redemption and made his choices deliberately but, even with that Luke did make one final try at peacefully bring bringing him back … and mind this was after they fought probably the most brutal duel either of them ever faced this side of Abeloth, Caedus went toe to toe with Luke and more than held his own Anyway even after that Luke tried to catch Caedus in an force illusion and get him to come talk and be healed, Caedus escaped and they had one last oddly civil conversation. The think thing I love about Caedus is even as a full Sith he had warped principles, often restraining his anger out of empathy and being quite critical of himself when those passions slipped, as he saw it, too far out of control. Like he really thought he was doing the right thing for everyone, evil bred from love and the best intentions. Oh and even at the end Caedus chose to spend his last couple seconds warning his former wife to run because their daughter was in immediate danger from a bioweapon. That's not redemption but it is something. He could have taken Jaina down with him, he decided to keep his daughter alive instead.
I would like to hear more stories of what worlds the mnggal mnggal has taken over, it's a perfect concept for a horror movie monster. Possibly the best I've ever seen.
Btw jacen did not seek out mara to kill her. She had realized jacen and lumia were working together and went out to to hunt and kill jacen where they eventually landed on a planet and fought to the death in a cave system
I knew it was Jacen after seeing the title. Stupendous, you and theory are inspiring me to create my own channel to star wars but I think you should re-read Fate of the Jedi. When Luke entered the "lake of memories" easier for me to name it that... Luke met with Mara and Jacen. Luke and Ben both questioned Jacen. They asked why he did what he did BUT he did it because he saw much further into the future. He confessed he made the choices to protect everyone from Abeloth though he didnt know it at the time. He sensed abeloth after Ben experienced a force anomaly. Jacen was NOT evil ... he copied anakin but never had anyone listen to him. Fate of the Jedi reveals it, Luke apologizes to Jacen's spirit for not listening. Marking a monumental moment of a jedi not succumbing to further hubris. But Jacen felt alone, he wasnt corrupt but lost as you said. Ben though, NEVER GAVE UP ON JACEN.
Excellent video, thoroughly enjoyed it. It actually reminded me how. Much I love that story and how much attention to detail went in to every character, every action and every consequence. A story written over multiple arcs or story culminating in a fantastic, terrible but justified ending. And of course the little dig at Disney put a smile on my face!
I love this on a philosophical level. Can you "redeem" someone who willing fell from grace without anyone to push them? Can you "redeem" someone who, at their very core, does not want to be redeemed?
I'd at least say he was back to the light as Vader was. Mara went back to dark ways and ended up similar to Jacen after death or what was shown in the book
Not entirely, but Jacen doesnt care. All he asked of Luke was who now sat on the future's throne of balance after Jacen's actions. When Luke told him it was no longer the dark man (Krayt) but his daughter, Jacen was completely satisfied with his fate.
A hard truth in life is to learn how you cant meaningfully change the people around you. You can only influence and try. People can only change themselves. And with how much others dislike being wrong, most choose not to change at all. We all make choices, but eventually those choices make us. Choose wisely
Luke in dealing with Jacen understood why people like Obi-Wan and Ahsoka couldn't redeem Vader, why it took Luke. He was wise to understand this and step back, allowing someone who COULD to try. It's what Yoda didn't understand in RotS or ESB, and I'm not sure he ever learned. It's why Luke was a far wider grandmaster, despite being much younger.
This is very interesting. I completely agree. It's good he let Jana deal with Jacon. He was irredeemable. Nice pun at Disney😂May the Force be with you too😊
Indeed, I stopped with the novels after the NJO. Something felt off about the DNT from just the summaries and then I learned that the Denningverse converged with Mortis from TCW, so I knew this wasn't right direction for the EU or Jacen.
Another Fantastic video, I love it, great job. Also, kudos for roasting Disney the way you did. You should be made Grand Master for that. What they did with Luke was in and of itself, beyond redemption.
Dang I didn't no this at all never knew this all whoa okay then I remember in return of the jedi there was still good in Vader Luke knew it and layia knew it too as a it was all ready too late for Darth Vader but Luke sense good in him at the end of the movie witch star wars Returns of jedi is one of my favorites and the episode 1-2 and 3 episode three of star wars was pretty good I seen all three of them I'm thinking about getting them on dvd 📀 and blu ray real soon.
Awesome video Stupendous love that you took shots at Disney that was just so cool because what they did to Luke was straight crap but also love that you did another video on Jacen and I think this one is just so fascinating and cool and would love more lore videos on Jacen because I think he’s an interesting character and I think a full life lore video on Jacen would be pretty cool and would make an awesome video in my opinion
God I love the legends lore it wasn’t perfect but it really interesting compared to what we were given. On other notes I view the comparison as with Anakin he was naive, impressionable, immature, and isolated. He was manipulated and used his whole life. Jacen was patient thoughtful and above all very smart. His problem as you stated was he still chose to plunge the galaxy into civil war. The only thing he succeeded in doing is saving his daughter which by letting Jaina kill him was the right thing to do it raises the issue. That being he died believing everything he did was justified is the problem he doesn’t see his actions created the opportunity for his visions to come true. I think the thing that cemented his descent is how he named his ship after his brother and it was to honor him. Then later on he thinks about the name of his ship and he hates it. This to me cements the ruin he brought himself to his brother who did his best would die tragically by putting everything he had on the line his life among them. Jacen put a lot of what he loved on the line but the moment he tossed aside many of the people he loved as sacrifice that is when he was lost.
So I haven't read Legacy of the Force in a long time. The way I remember the story unfolding was Jacen only turned to the dark side to protect his daighter? He had a vision of his daughter sitting on a dark throne and was being controlled my a dark man ( Darth Krayt). Jacen's opinion was the Jedi and the light side wasn't able to manipulate or change someone's destiny but the dark side and the Sith had the power to change a person's destiny. By the time his life ended his vision changed to his daughter sitting on a throne of light? Jacen's finale act before he died was to warn his daughter and mother of the daughter ( I can't remember her name but she is a queen I think ) to flee the ship because of the bioweapon that was released that would kill her, instead of defending himself against Jaina Solo and saving his own life? If I have that correct I don't know if that is redemption but I guess he died doing things the way he wanted. Which I can't tell if that's how a Jedi or Sith would of died.
I still remember when I was 12, rading Heirs to the Force, I felt I was at the Yavin academy with Jacen and Jaina... and then many years later, I learned he became Caedus :'(
This one is going to ruffle my feathers. Jason was a Solo not a Skywalker. Luke was wrong about this decision. Jason had plenty of light inside. His final thoughts were about his daughter and wanting to protect her. He also tried to deescalte things between himself & Jaina more than once during their final battle. She was too consumed with her own bloodlust and fear of his power to stop. She instantly and fully regretted killing him after it happened. She wouldn’t even let anyone touch the body after she murdered him. He was always very philosophical and after the torture the Vong & Vergere put him through broke his mind because it made him so much stronger as a warrior, something he excelled at but didn’t enjoy. After the torture pain became an ally instead of something that would disrupt his concentration. One of the most tragic and misunderstood characters in the franchise.
Having grown up reading the EU novels and knowing how the Skywalker Saga TRULY unfolds makes me want to violently heave at the sheer thought of what Disney has done to Star Wars. To anyone that is that in depth of a Star Wars fan no one can fathom the injustice wrought upon one of the greatest stories ever created.
Oh my god, I feel like I'm 10 again learning about legends for the first time before Disney took over I'm homeless right now and my ex is letting me stay at her place for a the night while she's at another dudes house, and as much as it hurts, she has me under a roof for a night, and im thankful, for all the light in my life, even when the darkness rises I'm rambling, love Jedi Master Luke, truly non toxic masculine role model
Jacen becoming Darth Caedus could have worked but the execution was terrible. He basically hears a mini lecture form Lumiya, doesn’t verify it with his own research and was like “ok I’m joining the Sith now”. Good shot at Disney with how they handled GM Luke.
Nah not really Lumiya revealed that Vergere was a sith and that she secretly trained him to be a sith and he didn’t realize it He looked upon his time with Vergere differently And then accepted that she was telling the truth
@@derek96720 yeah read the legacy comics bro No matter what you say Troy denning retconned her to be a sith She even says as much to darth krayt (She’s canonically a sith yeah I get it’s a retcon but think about it )
@ darth krayt says in legacy volume 3 claws of the dragon page 100 “ she claimed to have been trained as a sith by the emperor by darth sidious himself “ He also says “ Vergere taught me to use the agony of the embrace of pain to open myself to the dark side “ Vergere also says in regards to darth krayts plans for the one sith “ that will take time and skywalkers Jedi will grow stronger lord bane said that power cannot be shared that there must only be two one with power and the other to crave it , you cannot follow my path if you are walking alone . When I find my disciple perhaps I will share your philosophy with them , and now goodbye. She’s retconned to be a sith end of story
Jacen killed Mara and tried turning his son Ben by torturing him. He chose not to confront Jacen more to keep himself from seeking revenge and turning to the dark. That's why he made Jania, The Sword of the Jedi and gave her the task.
Actually, Jacen may have died a Sith, but his sister Jaina redeemed him from being a Sith Force Ghost and brought him back into the light. Edit Also it wasn't a "deliberate philosophical choice,". He saw a vision of Darth Krayt taking over the Galaxy. And even wiping out the order. The only way to avoid this and keep the Galaxy safe was for him to fill the role of the Sith Lord and keeping the reigns away from Krayt. As he lay dying, he saw a vision of his daughter become the new ruler of the Galaxy and she kept the Galaxy safe for a long time. The fact is, things would have been far worse if he hadn't become a Sith. He did what he did to protect the Galaxy. Just as Darth Vectivus chose to become a Sith because he believed it was for the best of the Galaxy, Jacen only did what he did to keep everyone safe. Was he way too brutal and overboard? Yes. But it's also true that he did what he did to keep everyone safe.
I wish there was more canon lore about Caedus. Whilst the Legacy series was awesome in itself, a book (or series thereof) focusing purely on Jason/Caedus would be any pre-Disney star wars fan's wet dream. He was so well written that I've enjoyed reading that entire series many times.
First off, I never truly thought Jacen became a Sith. Turn to the dark side - yes. Become a Dark Jedi - yes. Become a Sith? No. At least, not how Palpatine, Bane, Dooku, and Lumiya did. Second, you say Jacen wasn't manipulated. He was - by Vergere and by Lumiya. Vergere taught/forced him to see the Force as a tool. To embrace in the belief that the end justified the means. Those facts served Jacen well in his escape from the Vong, and then in ultimately defeating Onimi and the Yuuzhan Vong. The problem was that after the war, I never got the impression that Luke and the others got Jacen to undergo psychotherapy to deal with the trauma he endured. Then we had the visions he had, although I still believe he was more concerned about saving his daughter from the Dark Side rather than preparing the galaxy for Krayt. His approach to deal with this was influenced by what he learned under Vergere, and again, we see the result of Luke and the others not giving Jacen the therapy he needed. I've posted my thoughts on this matter before, so I won't repeat it again.
I don't know if anyone has gone into what having to stop her brother did to Jaina. Personally, I don't know if I could. He was her brother, her TWIN, a vital part of her life. Like even if my brothers did something like Jacen, I would hesitate and possibly lose.
The age old story of good and evil is one that will live on for eternity until both sides stop fighting and seek to understand each other. Luke would ascend beyond the light and into something more if he were to learn from the darkness. Considering Luke is the protagonist and darkness in all of reality is a mere reflection of the main character. Accept the shadow. Embrace it. Both sides seek the same thing ultimately. Fulfillment.
5:42 About time Mr. Wave said something regarding disney’s terrible writing of Luke and pretty much the rest of what the fandom has seen in the mouse canon thus far.
Lucas said that Vader was beyond redemption. However, I think that he was looking at that from a legal and moral perspective. Since Luke was able to spiritual save his father because he still had one redeeming quality. His attachments and love for his family. By the midway point of the ‘Fate of the Jedi’ series, Jacen Solo was willing to kill off his family members with the exception of his own daughter. Meanwhile, unlike Anakin, Jacen his own master whose understanding of the Force was nearly unrivaled. And by killing Luke’s wife, as well as Luke’s own failing with him, Luke could not forgive him. Even after death, Jacen was unrepentant. Where Anakin was misguided into believe that if he could obtain complete power over everything, that he would have the power to fix everything. Where as with Jacen, power didn’t matter so much, and he could shape the future, for some reason that Luke could not fully understand. “A ‘Dark Man’? Can you give me a little more to go by? I mean, I’m dealing with a powerful Force entity that is the embodiment of Chaos bent on destroying galactic civilization, who bought down galactic civilization more than once in prehistory. We brought down a galactic empire. And it’s Emperor, who was practically the embodiment of evil. Stopped and defeated the Yuuzhan Vong. And brought down many powerful bad guys, including an ancient Sith Lord. And you are still telling me that your justification going after family members and bringing about another empire was ok because you were worried about a dark guy that would divide the galaxy once again?” So Luke could not forgive him.
And by uniting with the sith, Darth Krayt was exposed decades earlier than he planned. All this because of the reverberations caused by Jacen's crimes.
His nephew tormented his son and killed his wife. I think in this case both Luke and his nephew would have been lost to the dark side if Luke confronted him. While it maybe difficult to see how Luke pit his niece against his nephew/brother, in this sense it would be a bit understandable for it to happen.
I liked your comment to Disney. Appropriate! I share in your assessment. My real name is actually Jacen, so guess who my favorite character was in the 90’s books?! And guess how distraught I was when my namesake fell. He chose his fate, as we all do. Anakin did as well, knew it was wrong, but he didn’t seek that evil out as Caedus did. It’s a sad tale.
He wasn't redeemed by Luke, but I'm pretty sure as he died, he was redeemed by Jania because he told her how to stop the nanites that he'd created and unleashed on the galaxy. It's been a while since I've listened to the audio book (CD's) I ordered instead of the paperback book.
Didn't jason Solo become a force ghost in the books? It was just before Luke fought Abeloth? And if you don't mind, could you tell me what book that was that way I can look it up?
Imagine being the only Skywalker who didn’t get redeemed… even the Death Star got a second chance!
NiCE 1 !
"From a certain point of view."
@@frenzalrhomb6919 obi?
@@frenzalrhomb6919 THANKZ 4 THE LiKEZ GUYZ, TO WHOEVER LEFT THEM !
THANKZ 4 THE LiKEZ, TO WHOEVER LEFT THEM !
5:42. “By the way Disney, that is how write a Jedi grand master Luke story.” Dude you just roasted Disney 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Soooo hard, it was epic. He’s right though, it needed to be said lol
A suprise to be sure, but a welcome one
I relistined tio that part. Made me so happy
@@michealrobinson3452 damn right.
Of course its Disney so think a major question is NOT the height of "the Bar" here but more... IS there even a bar to start with???
He killed Luke’s wife and Luke walked in on him while he was torturing Ben. Most powerful Jedi or not Luke still is human after all.
Yep
Darth vader killed all the youngling but Luke was like your ok i will let it it slide
@@simo-rn2tw he didnt walk in on vader killing all the younglings though, he never even actually witnessed it. He did however walk in while Jason was torturing Ben and knew he killed his wife.
Really don't blame Luke. Besides, from what I've seen in other videos, Mara fought him to the death because she sensed Jacen would not be returning to the light.
@@rossfitz8287 Actually yes, he did... in numerous canon novels Luke was given video evidence from various sources of the youngling massacre at his father's hands.
Watching this video and how you described Jason's story made me realize that it actually mirrors Count Dooku's in a lot of ways. Both were tempted by the dark side at their lowest point, both willingly gave themselves over to it and joined the Sith due to a belief that it was necessary for the greater good of the galaxy only to bring more pain and suffering, and both managed to kill the good within themselves so completely that even Luke thought they were impossible to save.
Anyone else consider Dooku, as well as Qui-gon and Obi-wan , unofficial members of the Skywalker family given the effect they have on it
@@VengeanceN7 I consider Qui-gon and Obi-wan to be honorary members of the Skywalker family, yes. Dooku, not so much. Dooku was certainly an influential figure in their history due to his rivalry with Anakin but he never had any kind of familial connection to him.
I feel like Dooku was more of a rival to Anakin, despite the age gap
Luke is the only one who knew that his father wasn’t really gone. There was some light inside his father that had to come out
Yeah, Luke’s belief in his father was central to the story. He was the only one who saw the potential for redemption in Darth Vader, even when everyone else had written him off irredeemable. That unwavering hope and connection were what ultimately saved Anakin.
Yeah but...I mean I understand why Ben and Yoda thought the way they did. The dude killed gradeschoolers who looked up to him like he was captain America with a lighsaber...
I mean, I get it, especially since I'm a 90s pre-episode one star wars kid. The orginal trilogy vader was much more mysterious, and you never saw him do his most vadery stuff, but let's be honest here...if you look at everything vader did without fan-glasses on can you really say chucking palpatine down that shaft "redeemed" him?
Sure the text of the movie says it does but, divorced from that, just going on ethical philosophy... was that really enough even if it killed him in the process?
All that said, yes, Luke was right to hope. It's akways right to.
That's the major difference between Vader and Jacen. Jacen was an empathetic soul who willingly went down the dark path to save the future and his daughter. The dark side DID corrupt him, but his conviction to save his daughter's future was absolute. There was no way Luke could bring Jacen back, but in the grand scheme Jacen's mission was successful.
Thank you for keeping Star Wars vibrant and alive
If Even Luke doesn’t want to save or redeem you, than there’s something wrong with your Humanity.
Remember, Jacen utterly believed in his holy mission. He may have dammed himself, but his actions did save the galaxy from a dark fate.
that isnt true in canon, ben simply had a dream and luke was ready to kill him
@@Omnipulsarit's much more complicated. Luke himself said it was something more than just a vision. It was like something was controlling him. Remember, The Emperor can try to control those he contacted with and Luke was exposed to him on DS2. So no, it wasn't just a dream.
Jacen and jaina are two of my favourite characters from the EU, shame we never got to read more of her as a jedi master after the abeloth saga
That message for Disney alone earned this video a thousand likes!
It earned him one from me, and you backing him up, earned YOU a like from me, too!
That's very true, i intended to give a like at the end of the video since it was a nice topic and all but i had to force crush this like button when Disney was mentioned 🤣🤣
5:42 Yes. That's how you write Jedi Grandmaster Luke perfectly.
5:42 You got that right. 👍👍👍👍👍
I think that Luke was wise here in part because I genuinely believe that he recognized that he couldn’t be impartial. He already wrongfully killed Lumia out of vengeance and he knew that if he were to go after Jacen he would likely do the same thing. While I do partially believe that his decision wa tainted by his own emotions I think that he had the wherewithal to know that he did not have what it took to kill Jacen and maintain his purity. Also while I haven’t read many of the legacy books I think that Luke recognized that based on their bond if anyone could see good in him and potentially and give him any form of redemption it would be Jana.
At first Luke absolutely hoped Jacen could be turned back, but by the end it got to the point where Jaina Solo was being trained specifically to assasinate her brother.
Jacen was the original MCU Thanos, but more right. He had accurate visions of Darth Krayt sitting on the throne of balance and running a rule of one empire, and decided he would do whatever it took to prevent that outcome. While he may have done some terrible things that cost his life and thousands of others, his actions utterly retconned Krayt's reign, likely saved billions, and put his light sided daughter on the throne of balance.
This resulted in Abeloth being released, but also Darth Krayt being exposed early, and being spiritually wounded fighting her.
Jacen pulled a Leto Atrides and protected the future by uniting everyone against himself. The ultimate and most painful of sacrifices.
well said, and kreia said the same of revan. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice isn't always easy to see. Perhaps Caedus never "fell"
@@victorjohansen6038but he did. Both Paul and Leto II were monsters but they didn't do one thing - torture their family. Yes, Leto II killed Alya but only because she was posessed by Baron Harkonnen beyond salvation, but he never touched other Atreides. Jacen Solo, on the contrary, tried to destroy his entire family among the other galaxy members. He was much more of a monster, far worse even than Palpatine.
A full rise and fall of Jacen Solo is a must!
Really find Caedus interesting would love more videos about him and his philosophy he seems to have a lot more depth to his character than any disney star wars has created
Yeah, Luke wouldn’t raise a lightsaber to his nephew because of some visions. Not the real Luke Skywalker.
Disney :
Luke almost kills his sleeping nephew because he had a bad dream where (if we take into account the lesson that Luke learned in the original trilogy), kill his sleeping nephew because he MIGHT turn to the Darkside to lead a new galactic empire that was yet to be. And afterwards is unwilling to help stop the empire because what good is one guy with a “lazer sword” going to do, by doing that?
Lucas’ Luke:
Learns not to blindly react to dreams and visions, especially based on fear, since the future isn’t set in stone, and since playing into them might create a self filling prophecy. Then helps bring down a well entrenched galactic empire with a lazer sword. Faces off against a powerful man of pure evil. And saves that guy’s right hand man who turned out to be his own father and everyone believed was beyond redemption, not just to stop tyranny, but because friends and family matter.
Legends Luke:
Lucas’ Luke plus+ some. Goes after his nephew, who turned evil of his own volition, and helping to establish a new empire after successfully co-opting the galaxy’s military forces. A nephew who possibly knew more about the Force than anyone that he had ever known, while having near Chosen One level Force potential himself. His nephew who wasn’t beyond trying to kill his parents, his uncle, torturing his cousin, manipulating friends to start wars and even killing his own uncle and mentor’s wife. A nephew who did that all based on a bad dream or vision.
Again Disney Luke:
Almost decides to kill his sleeping nephew because he had a bad dream, in which his nephew MIGHT turn to the Darkside and lead a new galactic empire that was yet to be.
Exactly it didn’t help Disney version of the nephew wasn’t much of a threat throughout the three movies due to him getting his ass whoop. Disney version don’t really fit well in Lucas version.
@@eds1942👎
You cant help someone who doesnt want it
Luke pointing the Sword of Jedi at Jacen, "Go get him!"
An absolute villain is one who ONLY see themselves as the hero.
Jason is one of my favorite skywalker. Love this video mate keep making these!🎉❤
He is probably my favourite starwars character.
Good summary but you got a couple parts wrong. Mara ambushed Caedus fully intending to finish him on her own when she found out he was working with Lumiya. The novel Sacrifice makes it quite clear she was acting on her own so the rest of the Jedi wouldn't have to deal with the emotional fallout of killing a family member and genuine galactic hero in the past, she'd take on the burden of ending him herself and almost, almost pulled it off. For Caedus it was murder but not premedidated, he was fighting for his life in the moment too and I think that nuance is important. I agree with your general take that Caedus didn't want redemption and made his choices deliberately but, even with that Luke did make one final try at peacefully bring bringing him back … and mind this was after they fought probably the most brutal duel either of them ever faced this side of Abeloth, Caedus went toe to toe with Luke and more than held his own Anyway even after that Luke tried to catch Caedus in an force illusion and get him to come talk and be healed, Caedus escaped and they had one last oddly civil conversation. The think thing I love about Caedus is even as a full Sith he had warped principles, often restraining his anger out of empathy and being quite critical of himself when those passions slipped, as he saw it, too far out of control. Like he really thought he was doing the right thing for everyone, evil bred from love and the best intentions. Oh and even at the end Caedus chose to spend his last couple seconds warning his former wife to run because their daughter was in immediate danger from a bioweapon. That's not redemption but it is something. He could have taken Jaina down with him, he decided to keep his daughter alive instead.
Thanks, this is a story I needed to hear. It's not always within your power to pull people back.
I would like to hear more stories of what worlds the mnggal mnggal has taken over, it's a perfect concept for a horror movie monster. Possibly the best I've ever seen.
LOVED the stab at Disney lol. Do more of that please! Thanks for the videos guys!
Btw jacen did not seek out mara to kill her. She had realized jacen and lumia were working together and went out to to hunt and kill jacen where they eventually landed on a planet and fought to the death in a cave system
Yep. Mara Jade specifically attempted to kill Jacen to prevent him from turning her son to the dark side.
I knew it was Jacen after seeing the title. Stupendous, you and theory are inspiring me to create my own channel to star wars but I think you should re-read Fate of the Jedi. When Luke entered the "lake of memories" easier for me to name it that... Luke met with Mara and Jacen. Luke and Ben both questioned Jacen. They asked why he did what he did BUT he did it because he saw much further into the future. He confessed he made the choices to protect everyone from Abeloth though he didnt know it at the time. He sensed abeloth after Ben experienced a force anomaly. Jacen was NOT evil ... he copied anakin but never had anyone listen to him. Fate of the Jedi reveals it, Luke apologizes to Jacen's spirit for not listening. Marking a monumental moment of a jedi not succumbing to further hubris. But Jacen felt alone, he wasnt corrupt but lost as you said. Ben though, NEVER GAVE UP ON JACEN.
Excellent video, thoroughly enjoyed it. It actually reminded me how. Much I love that story and how much attention to detail went in to every character, every action and every consequence. A story written over multiple arcs or story culminating in a fantastic, terrible but justified ending. And of course the little dig at Disney put a smile on my face!
"By the way Disney..."
BURN!! (read in the voice of Kelso in That 70's Show)
Great video!
I love this on a philosophical level. Can you "redeem" someone who willing fell from grace without anyone to push them? Can you "redeem" someone who, at their very core, does not want to be redeemed?
This is about Jacen isn’t it?
Edit: yarp
Actually, Jacen Solo redeemed himself in Star Wars Legends by warning his lover and daughter of an impending attack before he died.
Nope. Luke was visited later by his spirit from the chaos realm.
Well that is debated by fans
@@kellygreeniifirst as Caedus then as Jacen
I'd at least say he was back to the light as Vader was. Mara went back to dark ways and ended up similar to Jacen after death or what was shown in the book
Not entirely, but Jacen doesnt care. All he asked of Luke was who now sat on the future's throne of balance after Jacen's actions. When Luke told him it was no longer the dark man (Krayt) but his daughter, Jacen was completely satisfied with his fate.
Would absolutely love more Jacen & Jaina content. Would love to year Leia’s reaction to everything too
A hard truth in life is to learn how you cant meaningfully change the people around you. You can only influence and try. People can only change themselves. And with how much others dislike being wrong, most choose not to change at all. We all make choices, but eventually those choices make us. Choose wisely
Luke in dealing with Jacen understood why people like Obi-Wan and Ahsoka couldn't redeem Vader, why it took Luke. He was wise to understand this and step back, allowing someone who COULD to try.
It's what Yoda didn't understand in RotS or ESB, and I'm not sure he ever learned. It's why Luke was a far wider grandmaster, despite being much younger.
9:54 No, I think you hit the nail on the head. You can't redeem a villain if they have no light in them.
Jacen wasnt really a villain, though. He was someone who made calculated sacrifices, including himself, for the greater majority.
This is very interesting. I completely agree. It's good he let Jana deal with Jacon. He was irredeemable. Nice pun at Disney😂May the Force be with you too😊
Jacen could have been the Qui-Gon of the New Jedi Order instead of the bad rehash of prequel Anakin story for him in Dark Nest and LOTF
Indeed, I stopped with the novels after the NJO. Something felt off about the DNT from just the summaries and then I learned that the Denningverse converged with Mortis from TCW, so I knew this wasn't right direction for the EU or Jacen.
This was great. I definitely want more content about Darth Caedus aka Jacen Solo
Another Fantastic video, I love it, great job. Also, kudos for roasting Disney the way you did. You should be made Grand Master for that. What they did with Luke was in and of itself, beyond redemption.
I totally love this. We need for video about Darth Caedus. 💎
Great video I like this alot! 😮😮😮
Dang I didn't no this at all never knew this all whoa okay then I remember in return of the jedi there was still good in Vader Luke knew it and layia knew it too as a it was all ready too late for Darth Vader but Luke sense good in him at the end of the movie witch star wars Returns of jedi is one of my favorites and the episode 1-2 and 3 episode three of star wars was pretty good I seen all three of them I'm thinking about getting them on dvd 📀 and blu ray real soon.
Sick burn on Disney
Jacen made his choice and Anakin made his. He was only human and it shows just as much as it does with Anakin.
You didn’t really mention anakin solo at all and I find that strange, because to me his death is a massive part of why he fell to begin with.
I love your little dig at Disney 👍🏻👍🏻
Briliant video you really are well guided by the force
I think knew Jania was the right choice to stop Jacen. Anakin was manipulation and there was no redemption for Jacen.
Awesome video Stupendous love that you took shots at Disney that was just so cool because what they did to Luke was straight crap but also love that you did another video on Jacen and I think this one is just so fascinating and cool and would love more lore videos on Jacen because I think he’s an interesting character and I think a full life lore video on Jacen would be pretty cool and would make an awesome video in my opinion
Dude repeated the same thing like 4 times to get to that 10 minute mark
God I love the legends lore it wasn’t perfect but it really interesting compared to what we were given.
On other notes I view the comparison as with Anakin he was naive, impressionable, immature, and isolated. He was manipulated and used his whole life.
Jacen was patient thoughtful and above all very smart. His problem as you stated was he still chose to plunge the galaxy into civil war. The only thing he succeeded in doing is saving his daughter which by letting Jaina kill him was the right thing to do it raises the issue. That being he died believing everything he did was justified is the problem he doesn’t see his actions created the opportunity for his visions to come true.
I think the thing that cemented his descent is how he named his ship after his brother and it was to honor him. Then later on he thinks about the name of his ship and he hates it. This to me cements the ruin he brought himself to his brother who did his best would die tragically by putting everything he had on the line his life among them. Jacen put a lot of what he loved on the line but the moment he tossed aside many of the people he loved as sacrifice that is when he was lost.
So I haven't read Legacy of the Force in a long time. The way I remember the story unfolding was Jacen only turned to the dark side to protect his daighter? He had a vision of his daughter sitting on a dark throne and was being controlled my a dark man ( Darth Krayt).
Jacen's opinion was the Jedi and the light side wasn't able to manipulate or change someone's destiny but the dark side and the Sith had the power to change a person's destiny. By the time his life ended his vision changed to his daughter sitting on a throne of light?
Jacen's finale act before he died was to warn his daughter and mother of the daughter ( I can't remember her name but she is a queen I think ) to flee the ship because of the bioweapon that was released that would kill her, instead of defending himself against Jaina Solo and saving his own life?
If I have that correct I don't know if that is redemption but I guess he died doing things the way he wanted. Which I can't tell if that's how a Jedi or Sith would of died.
Great video
Speaking of Darth Vader, whatever happened to his castle on Mustafar ?
It's a really nice Bed and Breakfast.
@DarthBlue13 lol
I still remember when I was 12, rading Heirs to the Force, I felt I was at the Yavin academy with Jacen and Jaina... and then many years later, I learned he became Caedus :'(
Luke: "I feel the good in you, Darth Caedus, a conflict."
Caedus: ".. LIAR!!"
This is why darth caedus is one of my fav charaters in all of star wars.
This one is going to ruffle my feathers. Jason was a Solo not a Skywalker. Luke was wrong about this decision. Jason had plenty of light inside. His final thoughts were about his daughter and wanting to protect her. He also tried to deescalte things between himself & Jaina more than once during their final battle. She was too consumed with her own bloodlust and fear of his power to stop. She instantly and fully regretted killing him after it happened. She wouldn’t even let anyone touch the body after she murdered him. He was always very philosophical and after the torture the Vong & Vergere put him through broke his mind because it made him so much stronger as a warrior, something he excelled at but didn’t enjoy. After the torture pain became an ally instead of something that would disrupt his concentration. One of the most tragic and misunderstood characters in the franchise.
TBF, Jacen killed his wife Mara Jade.
THAT DiVORCE SHOULD'A HAPPENED ANYWAY ! [NOT YELLiNG, JUZT LiKE TYPiNG iN CAPZ]
Having grown up reading the EU novels and knowing how the Skywalker Saga TRULY unfolds makes me want to violently heave at the sheer thought of what Disney has done to Star Wars. To anyone that is that in depth of a Star Wars fan no one can fathom the injustice wrought upon one of the greatest stories ever created.
Would love another video on Darth Caedus!
6:08 So we could say that she... was unburdened by what has been? 😂
Oh my god, I feel like I'm 10 again learning about legends for the first time before Disney took over
I'm homeless right now and my ex is letting me stay at her place for a the night while she's at another dudes house, and as much as it hurts, she has me under a roof for a night, and im thankful, for all the light in my life, even when the darkness rises
I'm rambling, love Jedi Master Luke, truly non toxic masculine role model
I wish this was the storyline of the last trilogy. It was RIGHT THERE!! We could have had something amazing!
Jacen becoming Darth Caedus could have worked but the execution was terrible. He basically hears a mini lecture form Lumiya, doesn’t verify it with his own research and was like “ok I’m joining the Sith now”.
Good shot at Disney with how they handled GM Luke.
Nah not really
Lumiya revealed that Vergere was a sith and that she secretly trained him to be a sith and he didn’t realize it
He looked upon his time with Vergere differently
And then accepted that she was telling the truth
@@Badblood226and that line is complete BS, because there is nothing to indicate that Vergere was a sith or that she was manipulating Jacen.
@@derek96720 yeah read the legacy comics bro
No matter what you say Troy denning retconned her to be a sith
She even says as much to darth krayt
(She’s canonically a sith yeah I get it’s a retcon but think about it )
Casual the main reasons Jacen solo fell was because his brother died and also his daughter and wife were in danger he had vision of the future
@ darth krayt says in legacy volume 3 claws of the dragon page 100
“ she claimed to have been trained as a sith by the emperor by darth sidious himself “
He also says “ Vergere taught me to use the agony of the embrace of pain to open myself to the dark side “
Vergere also says in regards to darth krayts plans for the one sith “ that will take time and skywalkers Jedi will grow stronger lord bane said that power cannot be shared that there must only be two one with power and the other to crave it , you cannot follow my path if you are walking alone . When I find my disciple perhaps I will share your philosophy with them , and now goodbye.
She’s retconned to be a sith end of story
Yesss please keep talking about NJO especially Jacen
More on all 3 Solo kids would be awesome. What texts are these events from? I never get a solid answer from Google
Jacen killed Mara and tried turning his son Ben by torturing him. He chose not to confront Jacen more to keep himself from seeking revenge and turning to the dark. That's why he made Jania, The Sword of the Jedi and gave her the task.
That dig at Disney was beautiful
5:40 Ohhhh, there was some venom there directed at Disney X3
Actually, Jacen may have died a Sith, but his sister Jaina redeemed him from being a Sith Force Ghost and brought him back into the light.
Edit
Also it wasn't a "deliberate philosophical choice,". He saw a vision of Darth Krayt taking over the Galaxy. And even wiping out the order. The only way to avoid this and keep the Galaxy safe was for him to fill the role of the Sith Lord and keeping the reigns away from Krayt. As he lay dying, he saw a vision of his daughter become the new ruler of the Galaxy and she kept the Galaxy safe for a long time. The fact is, things would have been far worse if he hadn't become a Sith. He did what he did to protect the Galaxy. Just as Darth Vectivus chose to become a Sith because he believed it was for the best of the Galaxy, Jacen only did what he did to keep everyone safe. Was he way too brutal and overboard? Yes. But it's also true that he did what he did to keep everyone safe.
"Jacen wasn't manipulated at all." Goes on to describe Jacen being manipulated.
Disney catching strays is crazy
I wish there was more canon lore about Caedus. Whilst the Legacy series was awesome in itself, a book (or series thereof) focusing purely on Jason/Caedus would be any pre-Disney star wars fan's wet dream.
He was so well written that I've enjoyed reading that entire series many times.
First off, I never truly thought Jacen became a Sith. Turn to the dark side - yes. Become a Dark Jedi - yes. Become a Sith? No. At least, not how Palpatine, Bane, Dooku, and Lumiya did.
Second, you say Jacen wasn't manipulated. He was - by Vergere and by Lumiya. Vergere taught/forced him to see the Force as a tool. To embrace in the belief that the end justified the means. Those facts served Jacen well in his escape from the Vong, and then in ultimately defeating Onimi and the Yuuzhan Vong. The problem was that after the war, I never got the impression that Luke and the others got Jacen to undergo psychotherapy to deal with the trauma he endured.
Then we had the visions he had, although I still believe he was more concerned about saving his daughter from the Dark Side rather than preparing the galaxy for Krayt. His approach to deal with this was influenced by what he learned under Vergere, and again, we see the result of Luke and the others not giving Jacen the therapy he needed. I've posted my thoughts on this matter before, so I won't repeat it again.
I don't know if anyone has gone into what having to stop her brother did to Jaina. Personally, I don't know if I could. He was her brother, her TWIN, a vital part of her life. Like even if my brothers did something like Jacen, I would hesitate and possibly lose.
Awesome 👍
The age old story of good and evil is one that will live on for eternity until both sides stop fighting and seek to understand each other. Luke would ascend beyond the light and into something more if he were to learn from the darkness. Considering Luke is the protagonist and darkness in all of reality is a mere reflection of the main character. Accept the shadow. Embrace it. Both sides seek the same thing ultimately. Fulfillment.
Subtly roasting Disney finally, im here for it 👏🙌
Subtly?
Your hatred of Disney is worthy of Palpatine himself, isn't it? Aren't you haters on the dark side of things?
5:42 About time Mr. Wave said something regarding disney’s terrible writing of Luke and pretty much the rest of what the fandom has seen in the mouse canon thus far.
Lucas said that Vader was beyond redemption. However, I think that he was looking at that from a legal and moral perspective. Since Luke was able to spiritual save his father because he still had one redeeming quality. His attachments and love for his family.
By the midway point of the ‘Fate of the Jedi’ series, Jacen Solo was willing to kill off his family members with the exception of his own daughter. Meanwhile, unlike Anakin, Jacen his own master whose understanding of the Force was nearly unrivaled. And by killing Luke’s wife, as well as Luke’s own failing with him, Luke could not forgive him. Even after death, Jacen was unrepentant. Where Anakin was misguided into believe that if he could obtain complete power over everything, that he would have the power to fix everything. Where as with Jacen, power didn’t matter so much, and he could shape the future, for some reason that Luke could not fully understand.
“A ‘Dark Man’? Can you give me a little more to go by? I mean, I’m dealing with a powerful Force entity that is the embodiment of Chaos bent on destroying galactic civilization, who bought down galactic civilization more than once in prehistory. We brought down a galactic empire. And it’s Emperor, who was practically the embodiment of evil. Stopped and defeated the Yuuzhan Vong. And brought down many powerful bad guys, including an ancient Sith Lord. And you are still telling me that your justification going after family members and bringing about another empire was ok because you were worried about a dark guy that would divide the galaxy once again?”
So Luke could not forgive him.
Luke shoulda upped the switch on Jason... bro killed his wife and he let it slide das crazy work 😂
I love your deliberate jab at Disney. Actually I think we all did. 😂
Every time I dive into this era of Legends, I feel unimaginable pain knowing what we got on screen instead. Canon really just doesn't compare.
Now, let's try this again, which is what this story sounds like...
Ironic since Luke realized that the Sith were necessary for dealing with abeloth
And by uniting with the sith, Darth Krayt was exposed decades earlier than he planned. All this because of the reverberations caused by Jacen's crimes.
And btw Disney, you royally messed up Grand Master Luke Skywalker. Grade A bed shitting with that one lol😅
His nephew tormented his son and killed his wife. I think in this case both Luke and his nephew would have been lost to the dark side if Luke confronted him. While it maybe difficult to see how Luke pit his niece against his nephew/brother, in this sense it would be a bit understandable for it to happen.
I have a bad feeling about this i i mean great video
I recommend reading the Dark nest Series of books. With Betrayal.
We need a video on Anakin Solo
Jacen Solo is a very interesting villain and the one we truly needed for the Sequel trilogy (Not Kylo Ren)
I liked your comment to Disney. Appropriate! I share in your assessment. My real name is actually Jacen, so guess who my favorite character was in the 90’s books?! And guess how distraught I was when my namesake fell. He chose his fate, as we all do. Anakin did as well, knew it was wrong, but he didn’t seek that evil out as Caedus did. It’s a sad tale.
He wasn't redeemed by Luke, but I'm pretty sure as he died, he was redeemed by Jania because he told her how to stop the nanites that he'd created and unleashed on the galaxy. It's been a while since I've listened to the audio book (CD's) I ordered instead of the paperback book.
Jacen was a SOLO. Related, but not directly a Skywalker.
Like Revan. Brought the sith back, to save the galaxy
Yes more Caedus please 😊
Didn't jason Solo become a force ghost in the books? It was just before Luke fought Abeloth? And if you don't mind, could you tell me what book that was that way I can look it up?
The absolute SLAM aimed at Disney
Please, more about Jacen Solo/ Caedus ❤!
I thought the Solo twins were annoying at first...but enjoyed what they became and the story of them reaching it