Yeah it was a metaphor for oppessed people, at the time was the Civil Rights movement. And the X-Men is a good vehicle to tell stories about oppressed people, like the Morlocks being representative of the homeless and other people society rejects and ignores and the consequences of that. But, these are just storytelling devices. Not a vehicle for pushing agenda, just telling a certain type of story in a cool way (in the context of a superhero world) and thats the difference with how these characters are being used in modern comics.
Nightcrawler renouncing his faith made me lose interest, I’m an atheist and I always found his faith despite his rough life to be extremely telling of his inner strength
Nightcrawler is part of a long chain of characters that were not fit for this era's stories and as such had to be fundamentally changed to be included and ended up mostly only used as bait on the covers. The more you pay attention to his characterization and actions during Krakoa, the less it makes sense. I personally don't want to see him anymore and I used to be neutral about his character. That's how bad things have gotten.
The activist writers bulldoze anything that doesn't fit into their narrative. They have no respect for legacy or lore, as they just see characters as mouth pieces for their agenda.
@@spinningtornado4543Yes neither characters like Storm would be aboard with this Krakoa bullshit. Just a huge character assassinations of these classic characters could fit with Krakoa idea.
@@EvandroACruz What clearly shows to me that Krakoa has failed old X-Men readers, and most of the new ones too really, was that it tries referencing old stories and plotpoints to make its own self look grand and connected to the world and its past with its new take on the characters but seems completely unaware of what those elements were truly about as most of them would make it impossible for the situation they were brought up in to happen in the first place. You end up either annoyed to be reminded of a better story or confused as to what this was about at all. The readers who only have Krakoa as reference to the X-Men are dealing with the same kind of problems and giving the same critic old readers have and do after 20, 30 or 40 years all less than 5 years into their new era : Retcon, inconsistencies, plotholes, ... If old fans don't recognize long established characters anymore and completely fell out of love for them, new fans don't know what those characters are supposed to be to begin with because the Krakoa era can't keep its characterization and rules consistent.
Xmen used to be about The Outsider: the nerd, the geek, the goth, the punk, the lonely fanboy. The dream of Xavier was INTEGRATION with society. He wanted mutants to be part of society. And he protected people EVEN WHEN THEY HATED HIM. He still protected humanity even when many humans wanted him dead Now these days its all about homo superior domination. The mutants of Krwkoa era are for segregation, are for revenge on humanity, flexing their own superiority over humanity as they see themselves as the master race. The krakoa era embrace murderers and genociders mutants as long as they are mutants. Hmm. That sound heroic? Thats the thing. The writers these days are powerless little nerf herders who now have control of comics and are usung it for their own wish fulfillment and power/revenge fantasies. These creators are still living in 2016 and making all fandom suffer for their delusions and persecution complexes.
This story about X-Men being inspired by the Civil Rights movement must be the most-often perpetuated lie about the origins of the series. As you said, it was out of sheer laziness (or convenience) that mutants were created. No more "gamma radiation" or ridiculous backstories, just people who were born that way. All of the original X-Men were white guys and one white girl. All were straight (including Iceman). And I still find it funny that they want to equate Magneto to Malcolm X, as Magneto was a genocidal maniac, who believed in mutant superiority.
Exactly! Magneto was retconned to be Jewish/Romani, or whatever he is, much later, in New X-Men, to have been a tortured Holocaust survivor, and abused even after! Stan Lee was a genius, but he was a little lazy, but still genius. In fact, the whole hatred of Mutants thing never made any sense. Many Beloved Heroes looked weirder than most Mutants! Thing? Human Torch? Ant Man? C'mon! Thor even! And no one said jack about Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, and Beast when they were Avengers! Or when Angel and Iceman were in the Champions! So it's inconsistent at best!
@@BladeStar-uq6xe🤔I think mutants were more of a threat because of their potential to genetically replace humans, not necessarily just their powersets. The same thing is going now in real life...White supremacist groups are popping up all over the western world because of mass immigration, low Caucasian birthrates and much higher birthrates for other groups. The X-Men have always taken themes that mirror reality. But I do agree that humans accepting beings like the Thing and She-Hulk is weird af
that being said, Stan and Jack X-men was not popular in the slightest, and makes up some of their laziest and worst work in my opinion. When we think of the X-men, almost everything we understand as x-men today comes from that Chris Claremont run, which is what made x-men work and made x-men Popular. And Claremont, the defining voice behind the x-men was the one who introduced a lot of these political themes into the x-men, lets not pretend that the Claremont run was apolitica. God loves man kills, the whole Genosha arc, New Mutants 45 etc. etc. This whole conversation is set up in the wrong way in my opinion. Political Messaging in comic books is not the problem, POORLY WRITTEN Political Messaging is. Those chris claremont stories are some of the best marvel comic books ever produced, in part because they have something to say, but also because they are just amazing stories in their own right. Pretending that political messaging itself is what tanked x-men sales is also a little ahistorical, since God loves man kills came out in 1982, Claremont wrote 9 more years of x-men absolutely filled with political undertones and the sales exploded more and more and more. Issue is not the political element existing, but bad writes (cough cough Tini Howard) hitting you over the head with it in a poorly executed manner
@@BladeStar-uq6xeChris Claremont was the one that retconned Magneto into being a holocaust survivor in X-men 150, not Morrison in New X-men. That element was absolutely important in that run going forward and part of the character, as Claremont began to redeem Magneto. Stan and Jack might have created the X-men, but claremont deserves 99,9 percent of the credit for making the x-men popular and well.. a good comic. Stan Lees silver age x-men got cancelled because no one was reading it, due to it being very bland and uninspired. Claremont introducing more threedimensional characters, depth etc. to the world of the x-men made the book the success that it is
@@Alex-yx5qh I would give John Byrne a little credit. Uncanny X-men really didnt take off until John started drawing it and the title officially gained epic status only after the Dark Pheonix saga (also drawn by Byrne). That run gave Uncanny a lot of momentum that carried it for years after.
Its why I avoid the CBR Forums. A particular woman in Disney thinks the name 'X-Men" is discriminatory. I said that is taking it too far and two members were calling me sexist and other names while the mod (who is supposed to remain neural and let people share opinions as long people are respectful) said I deserved it Bottom Line. The extreme majority of comic fans are male. I can't grasp why Hollywood tries the same formula over and over again when its beyond obvious its not working. It's like they're trying to reach this target audience that doesn't even exist.
Easy. They can present it in powerpoints as "This is how many women are out there and who could buy our product if we target them". Of course even after 10 years, they can't present a power point presentation showing any women picked up comics.
@@linusgustafsson2629 I don’t understand what you’re talking about. I literally talk to a bunch of women who are both Titan and Flash Rogue fans. My mom was a Hawkman fan back in his early days. There quite a few females that love the comics. Unfortunately the one’s there catering to aren’t the ones who like the comics but the women you’ll see… how to put… the very popular vocal ones on tv and TH-cam, tik tok. The ones who are more prone to shopping and makeup and going out to bars. (Not the introverts, bookworms or even the gamers) They just don’t seem to understand that they’re literally dealing with 2 very different types of women. I always thought the group they were generally trying to get were part of the extremists. The nut jobs. The ones that favour books like 50 shades of grey and Twilight. Choosing not to read beyond those types of books.🧐
@@IIIISai Just to be clear I know there are some girls who are extroverts or enjoy being beautiful that also enjoy games & comics but I feel like those are uncommon.
The main writer of X men 97's X account is literally him using it as semi about the show and semi his own Only Fans. And the writers and big fanbase accounts block anyone who raises questions to changes.
Right. They don’t want to be defined by their birth and merely want to live in peaceful co-existence. Lol, they spend 95% of the time stopping their own villainous kind. If the allegory was actually applied at all, it’s like BLM fighting Chicago street gangs.
The main problem i have with woke "entertainment" is 1) is not entertaining, 2) those sort of writers do not know the difference between heroes and villains 3) they feel that Deconstruction and revisionisim is reality. This is the primary problem i have. They have RUINED stories and adventures, and they have polluted the heros journey. They are so self righteous and so self-absorbed that they have no concept that there is any reality outside of their own imaginary ideology. Marvel has destroyed Marvel comics.
All I have to ask them is the same question that got me banned on Star Trek boards. If the X-Men is "woke", then why does it have to be updated and retooled for "modern audiences" and "modern sensibilities"?
100% they know full well they are revisionists and NONE of the things they try to wear like an ill fitting skin suit, was ever about their personal fetishes and twisted ideology. They know they are lying just like they did with Star Wars, Dr. who, star Trek, and all the other IPs they have destroyed.
Because the line changes. At one point Mr. Rogers washing his feet with a black man was considered woke and super progressive. Now that's not. At some point a woman just wearing pants was woke and progressive in shows. Now it's not.
X-Men has always been about evolution. And so has progressivism. Nobody can pin down what "woke" means, but fear of change and fear of diversity do seem to be related.
Perfection gentleman. Nothing in comics hurts me personally more than what’s happened to X-men. I’ve been reading X-men for over 40 years at this point and it’s an unreadable mess now.
I can't read X-Men after they queer washed Ice man he was my childhood favorite after wolverine haven't had the stomach to watch them change anything else since then. Similar feeling to Luke Skywalker in the last jedi.
@@scinnycThe problem is that now even the most anti- killing members are slaughtering your foes without a qualm. It's very disturbing to see Kitty Pryde,Colossus,Polaris and Nightcrawler killing people with a smile and making jokes about this. I just cannot buy this,pure character assassination of these characters.
The argument (modern) that always makes me laugh is that Magneto is a “power fantasy and wish fulfillment for all those that are oppressed” is conveniently glossing over the fact that he’s a mutant supremacist and just shows what low moral fiber those people have.
I didn't know that X-Men fans were only for republicans and "neck beards". It's been said before Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were sick of coming of with new ways for characters to get powers to make the X-Men born that way is not how they were "always" political. Edit: I lost any and all interest in the new X-Men '97 cartoon, when I seen the bad art and animation character designs and more of what the people involved with the show were saying what is going to be in it. Also the comic Shadowhawk is about AIDS and it's pretty good.
@@TMF979Resurge Telling someone to grow up is just telling them to be more mature. In this case it's immature to develop a victim complex because you clung to your childhood and can't abide change.
The old X-Men comics actually had a lesson in regard to „woke“: some of the most evil villains in X-Men were mutant rights extremists that wanted to decide who gets to live or die. That was literally a warning about extremism and stuff like that „cancel culture“. Old. X-Men told us that our actions, not our words or any promised greater good make a person good or bad. It’s how we treat others people that’s important. Old X-Men comics actually warned us about the people called „woke“ today. So yeah, X-Men is more anti-„woke“ than it was ever „woke“.
Actually, anti-mutant extremists like Willaim Stryker and Graydon Cred are presented in a far harsher light than Magneto, who is presented as a sympathetic villain because he has a point. When was Stryker written as a sympathetic villain?
@@Overlord10ca Magneto was given way more time to develop as he occurred over such a long time in so many stories. Stryker and Creed were more like throw away villains in comparison. Tbh, most really old stories with Magneto that I remember, show him to be very cruel. PS: I also never said that the other extremists were shown as being good. The whole point of X-Men was that any form of extremism is bad, that people hurting others for purely ideological reasons was bad and that real progress lies in finding mutual ground to living together in harmony. X-Men was anti-nazi as it was anti-woke or anti-communism.
Exactly. And ironically it’s very funny how these people (liberal I’m sure) who are calling XMen as always being woke and calling the creators and writers of XMen to have been woke (as if this someone how is a 1up and a good thing for them lol) are the same people who call these white men from back then as non woke racists and white supremacists who were out of touch of todays issues 😒think about it
Certainly not the Wolverine of the past. The Cigar Chomping Slice and Dice first, Ask questions later Wolverine. This man almost killed Kitty Pryde because of his Berserker Outbursts
The only thing I can recall ever being like a gay allegory for the X-Men was the mutant cure in X3 and (a straight) Ice-Man having to come out as a mutant to his discriminatory parents in like X2(?), and is where the whole SJW angle came from. Realistically, mutants represent everyone because everyone can suffer discrimination, from their fellow man for a myriad of reasons. They could always try using Daken(I think he's the only gay mutant I know; from Civil War era) or The Runaways which would probably appeal to that crowd. I'm not sure, but they instead take already established characters like Ice-man instead and ruin the discourse for everyone by being plain and simple lazy.
Northstar was the first loud and proud gay character, but they only see legitimacy in replacing iconic characters, not creating new ones to push their agenda.
Darken was asexual and only used sexuality as a manipulation tool. He also raped and killed a female human supremacist that tried to kill him. Daken was a rapist. Also they made him less capable than his dad when Daken was able to kick Wolverines ass before.
Here is some actual dialog from Charles Xavier speaking with Jean Grey, from Stan Lee's 1963 X-Men #1. Jean Grey asks Charles Xavier what the real mission of the X-Men is. Xavier answers her by saying.... "Jean, there are many mutants walking the earth... and more are born each year. Not all of these mutants want to help mankind. Some hate the human race, and wish to destroy it! Some feel that mutants should be the real rulers of earth! It is the job of the X-Men to protect mankind from the evil mutants!" So the X-Men were created to defend mankind from evil mutants. Not to defend the civil rights of minority groups.
."I loved that idea; it not only made them different, but it was a good metaphor for what was happening with the civil rights movement in the country at that time."- Stan Lee.
Woke is the underlying or overarching ideology that discrepancy, different outcomes and results (i.e. representation), is caused by DISCRIMINATION. Any idea or outcome drawn from this is, by essence, is or becomes "woke" - _i.e. pushing AGAINST the rules of supply and demand, because "you know better" than the customer(s)._ Or that you're perfect as you are, it is the world around is that needs to adapt to YOU. Subjective, sociological and non-quantitative truths overrule empirical evidence and biology. It is a very narcissist-favoring ideology, and one that - as presented in the above example - often runs alongside Marxist themes and against capitalism. Professor Xavier's original main tenets are the very ANTI-THESIS of this ideology, which is more suited for Magneto. Your 2 cents from a political science and history student. *P.S.* be cautious about any and ALL sociology mains. Their work and income relies on finding "new truths" (that conflict with the pre-existing). If you want THE truth, you have to study psychology, biology, political science and economics.
@@powertothepeople5628 I’m fully aware what woke means. It isn’t the negative connotation simpletons like you seem to believe it is. Being aware of social and system injustice is definitely a good trait. You people use it as a way to describe any thing or anyone that Fox News tells you to be mad at.
Being woke is you telling people around that you think they're dumb and would do better with a governing entity adjusting their behavior and habits at every turn. If you're a sane person in the slightest, you immediately spot how crazy of a worldview that is. @@meneses_i2301
Wrong. I would never try and paint the entire left wing in a bad light, either. That's both morally and intellectually flawed, lazy at best and blatantly malicious at worst.@@meneses_i2301
Why do fake fans keep insisting on telling us what happened in stories they clearly never read? I actually own all of 60s Marvel and this is idea that X-men was always a Civil Rights metaphor or a stand in for specific groups is absolute nonsense.. Magneto was a 1 dimensional villain, he wasn't established as a holocaust survivor or old friend of Xaviers and he absolutely wasn't having civil rights debates with Xavier until the 80s. X-men in the 60s and 70s hung out in beatnik clubs and often assisted the FBI and US army. Xavier was a world respected intellectual, Warren was a playboy socialite, Hank was a football hero, Jean a model, Scott was even a radio DJ at one point and Bobby was everyones best friend. They even got a public invite to FF wedding as beloved heroes. They absolutely didn't get the hate and discrimination that Spidey, Hulk and Namor got. If you wanted social commentary in early Marvel it was found much more in Silver Surfer, Captain America, Howling Commandos and Amazing Spider-Man. A lot of fake fans misunderstand the universal appeal of the X-men- whatever the demographic of the reader they only seemed like they had been written just for you- because in reality they had actually been written for everyone. Mutants are a universal stand in for every group and everyone who has ever felt different or dealt with injustice. Pre Disney Marvel intentionally didn't make them representative of any one group because that is exclusive rather than inclusive by definition. Classic X-men was about hope. Modern X-men is about fear and segregation.
Spider-Man is a dude who has to hide his secret identity in a literal closet to protect himself from public persecution. I guess he's an "allegory," too.
Spider-Man is unironically ultra-MAGA. He has to fight against fake news (JJJ and the Daily Bugle), illegal aliens (the Venom symbiote), and wealthy corrupt elites (Osbourne). He just wants to make his neighborhood friendly again.
I'm just a white, middle age, heterosexual, conservative Republican , Christian male who has been reading comics for 45 years, so I gotta ask. What the heck is a "neckbeard?"
This is, quite literally, the same argument structure as "Sonic was always bad, lol." People have contemporary criticisms of a brand because of changing quality/themes. Contrarians who don't care gaslight critics by insisting that there was no change and they were just too stupid to realize it at first in order to discount any criticism. Very bad faith.
So to Rachel, what allegory is applicable to Apocalypse, a tyrannical Social Darwinist? Or Mr. Sinister, someone who tries to min-max a mutant like a video game character as a life goal?
These idiots will move on from comics when they inevitably lose interest and move onto the next thing. Silly kids who have been reading comics for 10 mins gatekeeping the people who have been keeping the industry alive for decades.
07:10: Actually, there's a piece of dialogue in Generation X #50 that proves that Spidey's PR campaign probably would have worked: Civilian in peril: "What's wrong with your skin?! I'm not gonna be saved by no mutie!" Skin: "Relax, man. Relax. I'm not a mutant. I was bitten by a radioactive elephant, which turned my skin gray and gave me the power to stretch." Civilian in peril: "Oh... That's OK, then."
The thing that made Xmen interesting is the issues they face as mutants, not as nonbinary or whatever other BS these "writers" try to force onto the characters.
You nailed it. Make stories about social issues, but it needs to take us for a ride. Don't beat us with the message hammer in a boring story. Give us stuff like To Kill a Mockingbird.
Dude I totally agree with you. Characters are written the way they were and I'm fine with that. What I am not fine with is demands to make Rogue black, Mystique a mom and dad now and characters like Morph non binary suddenly. Why all these OTT nonsense changes 🙄
You can't be a leftist and hate wokeness. That contradicts. It's oxymoronic. Like saying I'm for wokeness and I'm also Right-Wing, too. It doesn't make sense.
@@incubustimelord5947You are incredibly wrong. Lots of liberal people hate the woke culture, myself included. That's like saying all republicans are racist. Just ignorant.
the "allegory" thing with x-men is now irrelevant, outdated, and obsolete because of marvel comics itself. the x-men and the mutants are now murderers, segregationists and supremacists. lol. they're literally: MUTANTS only sign post. how is that a civil rights allegory? lol.
Yes I told this many times in this channel. How these characters can be heroes again after killed so many humans foes in this Era? There's no more room to heroism,mercy or idealism to them anymore after Krakoa Era.
I have read X-Men since 1975. Everybody was persecuted for being a Mutant. Northstar came out in 1992. He was gay in Alpha Flight. Who cared?? His twin sister was gorgeous. I loved Cyclops for the cool glasses, I loved Iceman cause he was the youngest of the group. I had to wear glasses from before I was two, and I was the baby of the family. After 52 years in print, (since I was 8) Marvel changed Iceman’s sexuality for sales. Change drive sales. Every good character’s first appearance or major change increase sales. “Death of Superman” is the greatest example. Now back to reality: Sir Ian McKellen IS Magneto and Gandalf The Gray. He just happens to be gay. I don’t care!!! He is one of the greatest actors of his age. Patrick Stewart is his best friend in the real world. He is not gay. I don’t care about that either. When you see them together you can tell they love each other. No matter their sexual preference. Watch Graham Norton’s Show. Stewart, McKellen, and Hugh Jackman are on together. They truly show their affection for each other.
I remember being called a "lair" by suppose fans for simply saying X-men was not made to be about civil rights. The idiots that said X-men were coming back and the new show was the beginning, you cannot complain. This is the X-men you wanted.
It was based on civil rights though, at least from pretty early on. But in the *original* sense, the Martin Luther King sense (todays so-called liberals hate him), not anything like today's woke distortions of civil rights.
@@HeyMykeelol whaat? Liberals dont hate MLK. The issue is cinsercative attempt to limit MLK to 1 line from 1 speech while ignoring the hundreds of his other writings. Lets be honest here
."I loved that idea; it not only made them different, but it was a good metaphor for what was happening with the civil rights movement in the country at that time."- Stan Lee
Nothing worse than a surface nerd trying to tell somebody who’s been a true fan of a thing what it’s all about. You both nailed it. So glad I bought the X-Men omnibus slipcase edition. Outside of few other storylines that I’ll pick up the collected editions, I’m done with it. I’ve got plenty to keep me occupied and entertained. There’s 60 plus years of good stories and art. No one has to bother with god awful fanfic and tumblr art.
The new X-men cartoon is calling Morph nonbinary because he’s a shapeshifter when Mystique was a shapeshifter in always a female. Also the original cartoon referred to him as he severely times because that nonbinary bs never existed lol.
Gender non binary isn't a thing at best morph is technically hermophroditic because he can switch sexes but his original form is still a he just like Mystique is always a she. That is not the same as being some alternate category outside of he or she which nonbinary supposedly represents.
#1 The Black Panther debuted in July 1966. The Black Panther Party was founded in October 1966. #2. The X-Men started out as a super-powered ROTC. Students wearing matching uniforms defending the establishment, taking orders from FBI agent Fred Duncan in Washington D.C. #3 The X-Men used to fight for “The Dream” of integration, mutants and humans living together in peace and harmony. Since God Loves, Man Kills, Days of Futures Past and X-Tinction Agenda, the idea that The Right is actively trying to commit genocide on minorities has been an overarching theme. Now, The Dream is dead and the X-Men practice and advocate segregation.
X-men were a great allegory for any outsider doing the right thing because it was right even if no one appreciates ot understands you, even if they hate you, you do what's right because it's right and that alone. You and your deeds matter even if the world is against you. The comics went to shit when they abandoned Xavier's dream and dealing with the struggles of upholding it even in the face of extermination. They stopped being Super Heroes with very human flaws to deal with and overcome and just became Super Powered avg people justifying or giving in to their flaws rather than overcoming them. The X-men used to be Delenn/Sheridan from Babylon 5 in Comes The Inquisitor. "No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, .. not for glory, not for fame. For one person, .. in the dark .. where no one will ever know .. or see." It's not the powers you have or the villains you fight that make you a hero, it's doing the right thing even when you have every reason not to, even when it hurts you, even if you're forgotten or hated, even if it kills you. Once they lost that they lost their heroism. Imho anyway.
These people seem to think that woke means anything that has a positive message. Woke doesn't mean "a story with a message." Woke is pandering, heavy-handed writing that prioritize agenda and message over plot and character. X-Men was an action/adventure comic first. I'm gay. I'd love to have gay characters--except these writers have no idea how to make decent gay characters. Their entire personality becomes "gay." Iceman is a great example. He lost all of his personality when he was...turned gay by Jean Grey? It's so insulting. And I have no idea why any gay person would celebrate turning a straight character gay, as it's just pandering and desperate. People would be fine with a gay character if the character were sort of badass and fun. I remember people loved characters like Micheletto Corella from The Borgias. He was the best character on the show and no one cared that he was gay because he was so freaking cool.
It was just mutants vs humans. That was it. Nowadays when they put all this LGBTcalifragisexpealidocius and this race nonsense on the X-men, they are basing it on struggle but who is more accepted? mutants or these wokesters? The latter doesn't even come close in struggling these days. There is no real struggle in comparison.
I'm seriously curious what Chris Claremont thinks about how all these stories are trying to do bluntly what he did subtly while still writing good stories. Has he done any interviews lately about this crap? Does anyone know? Is he on the woke train or not?
That was my thoughts exactly they should never go into something that was supposed to take place in 1997 with 2020's sensibilities. It's something that is jarring and pulls you out of submersion.
Even if you accept the premise that the X-Men were always about tolerance and diversity, it was a much more nuanced conversation. Mutants were mistreated and dealt with prejudice, but the comics acknowledged that the concerns of humanity had some merit. Apocalypse was dangerous. Magneto’s crusade was a self-fulfilling prophecy, creating the very fear and mistrust he used to justify his actions. The activists would never countenance such a discussion now.
As a gay republican 61 year old X-men fan the I find most if not all of the books unreadable, never blame your fans! The X men was always a tent pole for mutants from all walks of life now they narrowed it down to just sexual deviations and they are not even good stories. SMH
The X-Men were never woke, they were diverse. The characters were different genders, races and religions not because the creators were checking off boxes like the woke do, but for the benefit of the story.
I feel sorry for any cat stuck in one of these wahmen's place of residence. What a burden to be the only source of affection these creatures ever recieve. In that sentence the wahmen ate the creatures. 😂
Magneto (especially Clairemont-era Holocaust survivor Magneto) was likely modeled after Orthodox Rabbi Meir Kahane, whose dedication to the phrase "Never Again" lead him to become an extremist (the ideology of Kahanism is named for him, and is considered in many circles to be one of the worst things a Jew can call another Jew). If I were to attempt to construct an Xavier-counterpart in the Jewish community, I would probably link it to Conservative Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel, who was considered a leading _professor_ on Jewish ethics and mysticism as well as a leading author on Jewish philosophy, marched alongside MLK at Selma, was even called a "great prophet" by MLK, and built various other bridges with the Christian community, including at the Second Vatican Council where he persuaded the Catholic Church to remove various antisemitic sections of the liturgy. Just put this here since the video mentions the Jewish backgrounds of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby and cites that influence on Professor X and Magneto, which is seldom mentioned outside of the Jewish community.
@@ShilohLux.13 Claremont based the relationship and personalities of his versions of Professor X and Magneto off of the relationship and personalities of David Ben Gurion and Menachem Begin, however Begin shares almost no similarity in origin story with Claremont's Magneto (the same can be said of Kahane, who I cited however).
Very astute conversation. The same thing has been happening to my beloved Star Trek since 2017. In fact, you could replace "X-Men" with "Star Trek" in your conversation and it would be 100% relevant.
You see leftists talk about Star trek, and they are like why did you think Star Trek was ever for you right wingers?....The better question I have is why do you think all the values of Star trek are exclusively left wing? I mean all people willing actually go into space face danger, do hard work...I don't imagine this an environment where you'd run into may leftwingers. Modern leftists look down on any who does blue collar work and uses their hands. They're way too big of sissies to go out and fight people like Kirk regularly did as he blew off the big government to do things through rugged individualism, not kowtow to mandates. Historically, the left were always the ones pushing all the racism, (The KKK, nazis, identity politics) so where do they get off claiming tollerance as their value? It's revisionist history at it's best, they accuse people of being what they have always been. (The political parties switched myth...oh so the democrats don't have own they were party of slavery...) I fail see what is so left leaning about Star Trek beyond they did away with money... rightwingers don't want to slave wages either. We wanted our fair share but again only activists can have these virtues as rightwigners are soulless drones who work for corp(despite the left shares all the values they're told to by large companies....)
Yeah they’re not for us. The ones who have supported these characters for decades, it’s not for us. It’s for the they/them blue haired woke feminist who have never spent money on a comic book in their lives. Makes sense!
I never thought I would live to see a day when a new comic, show, movie or anything new from my favorite comics, or Star Wars or Trek, or anything I'm a fan of came out and I thought "couldn't care less!" I'm out until the age of wokeness ends. I'll keep remembering the past and celebrate that.
Thanks for finally confirming my theory that the X-Men were based on Jews. It always made sense, but I didn't have the reference to the two rabbi's, Irving Greenberg and Meir Kahane.
Stan Lee was already telling an anti-bigotry story with the X-Men as he said they were a good metaphor for what it’s like to be different. My question to the woke mob is why change them? why not leave them as they are? why not leave X-Men exactly as Stan Lee created them? Who are these new showrunners trying to change anything or try to tell their story? They are nobodies!! and definitely NOT better than STAN LEE!!
Anyone saying Stan Lee was writing a civil rights allegory just proves to me that they haven't read a Stan Lee comic. Stan is not a man of subtle metaphors.
Comics were never "woke" or "political ". They were always about universal morality. Spider-man had to deal with always doing the right thing, even if to the detriment of himself and others. Wolverine had to atone for a dark past and be a better person. Everyone could relate to both.
“Comics were never political”, republicans when they forget that spider man issue one of the bad guys was a republican hating Gwen Stacy dad for being a liberal.
@@kwancomicsexactly these folks forgot about that guy that was a republican that wanted to hunt spider man and hated captain stacy for being a liberal lol.
At the risk of being the contrarian here, while they weren’t meant to be progressive, they wound up being so. What people misunderstand is that they do not belong to one type of minority. They can stand for anyone who is deemed a misfit. That is why them being mutants above all else as the focal point is crucial. It is something neutral and soft. The misfit can be anyone even a person who is white, straight, male and Christian. We have all been outcasted and misunderstood sometimes.
There's definitely messages with in xmen, but they weren't about any specfic group as you said. Woke activists believe only the oppressed ever truly suffer and there for it's not about you, which is utter nonsense. People of all walks of life can be bullied, as people who have good traits like being really tall, really smart or well endowed are made feel like freaks because jerks use low hanging fruit to attack them since they typically aren't very smart. Plenty of people can feel like outcasts as thats who Xmen really are. People suffering is part of the human condition, and wokies don't want to see that way.
I'm finishing out my contract with DC. I'm tired of this shit, I'm tired of them ruining these characters; they don't have a right to do this. At Comic-Con in 2009, I was pushing Jerry Robinson's wheelchair around. That's the man who invented the Joker. I would work the DC booth back then. I remember bending down to his face and telling him, thank you for creating these characters, so people like me can waltz in and get a job. It's not about gay or anything else. What really pissed me off was saying truth, justice, and a better world, when that it was Truth, Justice, and the American way. My Grandpa almost died in World War II; we don't have a right to destroy stuff that people died for to give us. It's a bunch of nonsense. They call us bigots and racist and shit, I would ask them, find me in the mainstream, not on the fringes, one book, one t-shirt, one movie that says that leftism is bad, and conservatism is good, find it for me, they won't they're not letting people have a voice, they're the bigots. Sorry, that's been bottled up for five years.
The x-men always fought for mutant rights and showing that mutants and humans and coexist and live in peace. That’s what I remembered about them
Yes the true X-Men. Not these murderous segregacionists that we see in comics in the latest years.
The first comics it's just superhero stuff, good vs evil, the x-men were created to protect the humanity from other evil mutants.
Yeah it was a metaphor for oppessed people, at the time was the Civil Rights movement.
And the X-Men is a good vehicle to tell stories about oppressed people, like the Morlocks being representative of the homeless and other people society rejects and ignores and the consequences of that.
But, these are just storytelling devices. Not a vehicle for pushing agenda, just telling a certain type of story in a cool way (in the context of a superhero world) and thats the difference with how these characters are being used in modern comics.
@@FURognarbut it still leaves it open as a form of ammunition for them to push the whole “all entertainment is political” narrative
Yep, it's legit woke equality lol.
The Uncanny X-men run CREATED new international heroes; they didn't suddenly change golden age /silver age characters identities.
This.
People that weren't even born when I started reading & collecting comics telling me what's up. I just LOVE that, it's my favorite!
And they were born after 9/11. So they know nothing about what our country has been through. It’s sickening.
"Am I so out of touch? No, it's the children who are wrong."
@@mordorderly1473 Sometimes, the children are wrong. :)
Maybe you just have dementia and that's why you don't have any media literacy gramps
@@mordorderly1473 because they legitimately are wrong. I know, it’s ok. You’ll get through this. This revelation won’t kill you.
X-Men were ruined in a fraction of the time it took to get them over.
Always the way it goes.
All started with Grant Morrison.
Nightcrawler renouncing his faith made me lose interest, I’m an atheist and I always found his faith despite his rough life to be extremely telling of his inner strength
Nightcrawler is part of a long chain of characters that were not fit for this era's stories and as such had to be fundamentally changed to be included and ended up mostly only used as bait on the covers.
The more you pay attention to his characterization and actions during Krakoa, the less it makes sense.
I personally don't want to see him anymore and I used to be neutral about his character. That's how bad things have gotten.
The activist writers bulldoze anything that doesn't fit into their narrative. They have no respect for legacy or lore, as they just see characters as mouth pieces for their agenda.
@@spinningtornado4543Yes neither characters like Storm would be aboard with this Krakoa bullshit. Just a huge character assassinations of these classic characters could fit with Krakoa idea.
@@EvandroACruz What clearly shows to me that Krakoa has failed old X-Men readers, and most of the new ones too really, was that it tries referencing old stories and plotpoints to make its own self look grand and connected to the world and its past with its new take on the characters but seems completely unaware of what those elements were truly about as most of them would make it impossible for the situation they were brought up in to happen in the first place. You end up either annoyed to be reminded of a better story or confused as to what this was about at all.
The readers who only have Krakoa as reference to the X-Men are dealing with the same kind of problems and giving the same critic old readers have and do after 20, 30 or 40 years all less than 5 years into their new era : Retcon, inconsistencies, plotholes, ...
If old fans don't recognize long established characters anymore and completely fell out of love for them, new fans don't know what those characters are supposed to be to begin with because the Krakoa era can't keep its characterization and rules consistent.
@@spinningtornado4543Krakoa should be a elseworld like Days Of Future Past and Age of Apocalypse. In the main 616 canon this plot just can't work.
Xmen used to be about The Outsider: the nerd, the geek, the goth, the punk, the lonely fanboy. The dream of Xavier was INTEGRATION with society. He wanted mutants to be part of society. And he protected people EVEN WHEN THEY HATED HIM. He still protected humanity even when many humans wanted him dead
Now these days its all about homo superior domination. The mutants of Krwkoa era are for segregation, are for revenge on humanity, flexing their own superiority over humanity as they see themselves as the master race. The krakoa era embrace murderers and genociders mutants as long as they are mutants. Hmm. That sound heroic?
Thats the thing. The writers these days are powerless little nerf herders who now have control of comics and are usung it for their own wish fulfillment and power/revenge fantasies. These creators are still living in 2016 and making all fandom suffer for their delusions and persecution complexes.
This story about X-Men being inspired by the Civil Rights movement must be the most-often perpetuated lie about the origins of the series. As you said, it was out of sheer laziness (or convenience) that mutants were created. No more "gamma radiation" or ridiculous backstories, just people who were born that way.
All of the original X-Men were white guys and one white girl. All were straight (including Iceman). And I still find it funny that they want to equate Magneto to Malcolm X, as Magneto was a genocidal maniac, who believed in mutant superiority.
Exactly! Magneto was retconned to be Jewish/Romani, or whatever he is, much later, in New X-Men, to have been a tortured Holocaust survivor, and abused even after! Stan Lee was a genius, but he was a little lazy, but still genius. In fact, the whole hatred of Mutants thing never made any sense. Many Beloved Heroes looked weirder than most Mutants! Thing? Human Torch? Ant Man? C'mon! Thor even! And no one said jack about Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, and Beast when they were Avengers! Or when Angel and Iceman were in the Champions! So it's inconsistent at best!
@@BladeStar-uq6xe🤔I think mutants were more of a threat because of their potential to genetically replace humans, not necessarily just their powersets. The same thing is going now in real life...White supremacist groups are popping up all over the western world because of mass immigration, low Caucasian birthrates and much higher birthrates for other groups. The X-Men have always taken themes that mirror reality. But I do agree that humans accepting beings like the Thing and She-Hulk is weird af
that being said, Stan and Jack X-men was not popular in the slightest, and makes up some of their laziest and worst work in my opinion. When we think of the X-men, almost everything we understand as x-men today comes from that Chris Claremont run, which is what made x-men work and made x-men Popular. And Claremont, the defining voice behind the x-men was the one who introduced a lot of these political themes into the x-men, lets not pretend that the Claremont run was apolitica. God loves man kills, the whole Genosha arc, New Mutants 45 etc. etc. This whole conversation is set up in the wrong way in my opinion. Political Messaging in comic books is not the problem, POORLY WRITTEN Political Messaging is. Those chris claremont stories are some of the best marvel comic books ever produced, in part because they have something to say, but also because they are just amazing stories in their own right.
Pretending that political messaging itself is what tanked x-men sales is also a little ahistorical, since God loves man kills came out in 1982, Claremont wrote 9 more years of x-men absolutely filled with political undertones and the sales exploded more and more and more. Issue is not the political element existing, but bad writes (cough cough Tini Howard) hitting you over the head with it in a poorly executed manner
@@BladeStar-uq6xeChris Claremont was the one that retconned Magneto into being a holocaust survivor in X-men 150, not Morrison in New X-men. That element was absolutely important in that run going forward and part of the character, as Claremont began to redeem Magneto.
Stan and Jack might have created the X-men, but claremont deserves 99,9 percent of the credit for making the x-men popular and well.. a good comic. Stan Lees silver age x-men got cancelled because no one was reading it, due to it being very bland and uninspired. Claremont introducing more threedimensional characters, depth etc. to the world of the x-men made the book the success that it is
@@Alex-yx5qh I would give John Byrne a little credit. Uncanny X-men really didnt take off until John started drawing it and the title officially gained epic status only after the Dark Pheonix saga (also drawn by Byrne). That run gave Uncanny a lot of momentum that carried it for years after.
Its why I avoid the CBR Forums. A particular woman in Disney thinks the name 'X-Men" is discriminatory. I said that is taking it too far and two members were calling me sexist and other names while the mod (who is supposed to remain neural and let people share opinions as long people are respectful) said I deserved it
Bottom Line. The extreme majority of comic fans are male. I can't grasp why Hollywood tries the same formula over and over again when its beyond obvious its not working. It's like they're trying to reach this target audience that doesn't even exist.
Easy. They can present it in powerpoints as "This is how many women are out there and who could buy our product if we target them".
Of course even after 10 years, they can't present a power point presentation showing any women picked up comics.
X men exclusionary title, run like hell!
@@linusgustafsson2629 I don’t understand what you’re talking about. I literally talk to a bunch of women who are both Titan and Flash Rogue fans. My mom was a Hawkman fan back in his early days. There quite a few females that love the comics.
Unfortunately the one’s there catering to aren’t the ones who like the comics but the women you’ll see… how to put… the very popular vocal ones on tv and TH-cam, tik tok. The ones who are more prone to shopping and makeup and going out to bars. (Not the introverts, bookworms or even the gamers) They just don’t seem to understand that they’re literally dealing with 2 very different types of women.
I always thought the group they were generally trying to get were part of the extremists. The nut jobs. The ones that favour books like 50 shades of grey and Twilight. Choosing not to read beyond those types of books.🧐
@@LadyLark712 damn
@@IIIISai Just to be clear I know there are some girls who are extroverts or enjoy being beautiful that also enjoy games & comics but I feel like those are uncommon.
The main writer of X men 97's X account is literally him using it as semi about the show and semi his own Only Fans. And the writers and big fanbase accounts block anyone who raises questions to changes.
Remember when X:Men Children of the Atom by Capcom? When you beat the game with Iceman and he makes ice statues to impress women? I remember.
The X-men put being a hero above being a mutant.
Heck yeah. The positive traits that make us the same are what really matter.
Right. They don’t want to be defined by their birth and merely want to live in peaceful co-existence. Lol, they spend 95% of the time stopping their own villainous kind. If the allegory was actually applied at all, it’s like BLM fighting Chicago street gangs.
Reporter: Uh, Ice Man? What is your preferred gender pronoun?
Bobby: SUPERHERO!
Exactly. The right path is always the hardest road.
i took it as the "original" X-men was about teenagers who were in high school training to be heroes and be outcasts.
Yup, same
Then you're both retards
Gotta love the creating of division and shrinking their already shrunk market. Brilliant business 😃👏
The main problem i have with woke "entertainment" is 1) is not entertaining, 2) those sort of writers do not know the difference between heroes and villains 3) they feel that Deconstruction and revisionisim is reality. This is the primary problem i have. They have RUINED stories and adventures, and they have polluted the heros journey. They are so self righteous and so self-absorbed that they have no concept that there is any reality outside of their own imaginary ideology. Marvel has destroyed Marvel comics.
Yes, The modern X-Men and another Marvel heroes share many evil traits of your villains in nowadays.
All I have to ask them is the same question that got me banned on Star Trek boards.
If the X-Men is "woke", then why does it have to be updated and retooled for "modern audiences" and "modern sensibilities"?
100% they know full well they are revisionists and NONE of the things they try to wear like an ill fitting skin suit, was ever about their personal fetishes and twisted ideology. They know they are lying just like they did with Star Wars, Dr. who, star Trek, and all the other IPs they have destroyed.
That's a dangerous question, komrade. The kommissar would like to speak with you.
Because the line changes. At one point Mr. Rogers washing his feet with a black man was considered woke and super progressive. Now that's not. At some point a woman just wearing pants was woke and progressive in shows. Now it's not.
Previous generations and historical core values are always EEEVILLL.
X-Men has always been about evolution. And so has progressivism.
Nobody can pin down what "woke" means, but fear of change and fear of diversity do seem to be related.
Perfection gentleman. Nothing in comics hurts me personally more than what’s happened to X-men. I’ve been reading X-men for over 40 years at this point and it’s an unreadable mess now.
They are all murderers now. No more heroism or aspirational tales anymore. Modern Marvel killed the entire team for me.
I can't read X-Men after they queer washed Ice man he was my childhood favorite after wolverine haven't had the stomach to watch them change anything else since then. Similar feeling to Luke Skywalker in the last jedi.
It's ok for wolverine to kill his powers are built for it along with a few others.
I've seen multiple X-Men kill villains before and it wasn't really even out of their character. But aside from that, I agree
@@scinnycThe problem is that now even the most anti- killing members are slaughtering your foes without a qualm. It's very disturbing to see Kitty Pryde,Colossus,Polaris and Nightcrawler killing people with a smile and making jokes about this. I just cannot buy this,pure character assassination of these characters.
The argument (modern) that always makes me laugh is that Magneto is a “power fantasy and wish fulfillment for all those that are oppressed” is conveniently glossing over the fact that he’s a mutant supremacist and just shows what low moral fiber those people have.
None of these writers know what actual heroism is. They think having intersectionality makes you a hero, not actually doing good.
Just look what Th X_mne become in this Era.Segregacionists jerkasses and cold blooded murderers. No more heroism.
No Magneto had to go back to being bad and Evil was due to Bob Harras towards the end of the Claremont Era.
I didn't know that X-Men fans were only for republicans and "neck beards". It's been said before Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were sick of coming of with new ways for characters to get powers to make the X-Men born that way is not how they were "always" political.
Edit: I lost any and all interest in the new X-Men '97 cartoon, when I seen the bad art and animation character designs and more of what the people involved with the show were saying what is going to be in it.
Also the comic Shadowhawk is about AIDS and it's pretty good.
Sadly Shadowhawk never was published here in my country.
@@EvandroACruz , that sucks, even if it isn't ethical could you pirate it?
@@RollingDodgeI had the scans here in my PC.
They complain about nerds "gatekeeping" when they take over our childhood and gatekeeper us from it.
That's what I was thinking
Some gatekeeping is good.
They traveled back in time to take over your childhood? Grow up.
@@mordorderly1473You know, people like you always say grow up, but you never specify what exactly that entails to your satisfaction
@@TMF979Resurge Telling someone to grow up is just telling them to be more mature. In this case it's immature to develop a victim complex because you clung to your childhood and can't abide change.
The old X-Men comics actually had a lesson in regard to „woke“: some of the most evil villains in X-Men were mutant rights extremists that wanted to decide who gets to live or die. That was literally a warning about extremism and stuff like that „cancel culture“. Old. X-Men told us that our actions, not our words or any promised greater good make a person good or bad. It’s how we treat others people that’s important. Old X-Men comics actually warned us about the people called „woke“ today. So yeah, X-Men is more anti-„woke“ than it was ever „woke“.
I know!! But many don't see it like that.
Actually, anti-mutant extremists like Willaim Stryker and Graydon Cred are presented in a far harsher light than Magneto, who is presented as a sympathetic villain because he has a point. When was Stryker written as a sympathetic villain?
@@Overlord10ca Magneto was given way more time to develop as he occurred over such a long time in so many stories. Stryker and Creed were more like throw away villains in comparison. Tbh, most really old stories with Magneto that I remember, show him to be very cruel.
PS: I also never said that the other extremists were shown as being good. The whole point of X-Men was that any form of extremism is bad, that people hurting others for purely ideological reasons was bad and that real progress lies in finding mutual ground to living together in harmony. X-Men was anti-nazi as it was anti-woke or anti-communism.
@@Overlord10caIn "God Loves, Man Kills II" by Claremont. In the Silver Age, Bolivar Trask was a lot more sympathetic than Magneto.
Exactly. And ironically it’s very funny how these people (liberal I’m sure) who are calling XMen as always being woke and calling the creators and writers of XMen to have been woke (as if this someone how is a 1up and a good thing for them lol) are the same people who call these white men from back then as non woke racists and white supremacists who were out of touch of todays issues 😒think about it
Ha, "Kink fetish Island" would at least be a more honest name than X-men.
The amount of insane w0ke gaslighting around this topic is truly mindblowing.
I hear Pet Smart is hiring. Rachel could get a job there. There’s plenty of kitties there. And I’m saying that as a cat lover.
"They" don't understand. Never have and never will.
They are not interested in knowledge and understanding. And they want YOU to be the same way.
Q: Why can't we have nice things?
A: These gatekeepers.
When I think of Woke....I dont think WOLVERINE.
Certainly not the Wolverine of the past. The Cigar Chomping Slice and Dice first, Ask questions later Wolverine. This man almost killed Kitty Pryde because of his Berserker Outbursts
@@lisaroberts8556 Exaaaaaaactly
They never read that Wolverine.
@@PrivateCitizen84 shhhhh.....we don't talk about that guy
The only thing I can recall ever being like a gay allegory for the X-Men was the mutant cure in X3 and (a straight) Ice-Man having to come out as a mutant to his discriminatory parents in like X2(?), and is where the whole SJW angle came from.
Realistically, mutants represent everyone because everyone can suffer discrimination, from their fellow man for a myriad of reasons.
They could always try using Daken(I think he's the only gay mutant I know; from Civil War era) or The Runaways which would probably appeal to that crowd. I'm not sure, but they instead take already established characters like Ice-man instead and ruin the discourse for everyone by being plain and simple lazy.
Northstar was the first loud and proud gay character, but they only see legitimacy in replacing iconic characters, not creating new ones to push their agenda.
@Lastjustice Exactly, stop being so cheap if you can't afford to do anything right.
Darken was asexual and only used sexuality as a manipulation tool. He also raped and killed a female human supremacist that tried to kill him. Daken was a rapist. Also they made him less capable than his dad when Daken was able to kick Wolverines ass before.
Here is some actual dialog from Charles Xavier speaking with Jean Grey, from Stan Lee's 1963 X-Men #1. Jean Grey asks Charles Xavier what the real mission of the X-Men is. Xavier answers her by saying.... "Jean, there are many mutants walking the earth... and more are born each year. Not all of these mutants want to help mankind. Some hate the human race, and wish to destroy it! Some feel that mutants should be the real rulers of earth! It is the job of the X-Men to protect mankind from the evil mutants!" So the X-Men were created to defend mankind from evil mutants. Not to defend the civil rights of minority groups.
."I loved that idea; it not only made them different, but it was a good metaphor for what was happening with the civil rights movement in the country at that time."- Stan Lee.
Woke is the underlying or overarching ideology that discrepancy, different outcomes and results (i.e. representation), is caused by DISCRIMINATION.
Any idea or outcome drawn from this is, by essence, is or becomes "woke" - _i.e. pushing AGAINST the rules of supply and demand, because "you know better" than the customer(s)._ Or that you're perfect as you are, it is the world around is that needs to adapt to YOU. Subjective, sociological and non-quantitative truths overrule empirical evidence and biology.
It is a very narcissist-favoring ideology, and one that - as presented in the above example - often runs alongside Marxist themes and against capitalism.
Professor Xavier's original main tenets are the very ANTI-THESIS of this ideology, which is more suited for Magneto.
Your 2 cents from a political science and history student.
*P.S.* be cautious about any and ALL sociology mains. Their work and income relies on finding "new truths" (that conflict with the pre-existing). If you want THE truth, you have to study psychology, biology, political science and economics.
You have just described right wing ideology and politics.
@@powertothepeople5628 I’m fully aware what woke means. It isn’t the negative connotation simpletons like you seem to believe it is. Being aware of social and system injustice is definitely a good trait. You people use it as a way to describe any thing or anyone that Fox News tells you to be mad at.
Being woke is you telling people around that you think they're dumb and would do better with a governing entity adjusting their behavior and habits at every turn.
If you're a sane person in the slightest, you immediately spot how crazy of a worldview that is. @@meneses_i2301
Wrong. I would never try and paint the entire left wing in a bad light, either. That's both morally and intellectually flawed, lazy at best and blatantly malicious at worst.@@meneses_i2301
Why do fake fans keep insisting on telling us what happened in stories they clearly never read? I actually own all of 60s Marvel and this is idea that X-men was always a Civil Rights metaphor or a stand in for specific groups is absolute nonsense.. Magneto was a 1 dimensional villain, he wasn't established as a holocaust survivor or old friend of Xaviers and he absolutely wasn't having civil rights debates with Xavier until the 80s. X-men in the 60s and 70s hung out in beatnik clubs and often assisted the FBI and US army. Xavier was a world respected intellectual, Warren was a playboy socialite, Hank was a football hero, Jean a model, Scott was even a radio DJ at one point and Bobby was everyones best friend. They even got a public invite to FF wedding as beloved heroes. They absolutely didn't get the hate and discrimination that Spidey, Hulk and Namor got. If you wanted social commentary in early Marvel it was found much more in Silver Surfer, Captain America, Howling Commandos and Amazing Spider-Man. A lot of fake fans misunderstand the universal appeal of the X-men- whatever the demographic of the reader they only seemed like they had been written just for you- because in reality they had actually been written for everyone. Mutants are a universal stand in for every group and everyone who has ever felt different or dealt with injustice. Pre Disney Marvel intentionally didn't make them representative of any one group because that is exclusive rather than inclusive by definition. Classic X-men was about hope. Modern X-men is about fear and segregation.
Very well said.
Spider-Man is a dude who has to hide his secret identity in a literal closet to protect himself from public persecution. I guess he's an "allegory," too.
Spider-Man is unironically ultra-MAGA. He has to fight against fake news (JJJ and the Daily Bugle), illegal aliens (the Venom symbiote), and wealthy corrupt elites (Osbourne). He just wants to make his neighborhood friendly again.
Spider-Man is unironically ultra-MAGA. Fake news is always trying to get him. One of his main enemies is ĭlleĝal ąliĕn (the Venom symbiote).
@@googleislame maybe stories can have political implications and the characters themselves aren't owned by any party ideology
Yes
I'm just a white, middle age, heterosexual, conservative Republican , Christian male who has been reading comics for 45 years, so I gotta ask. What the heck is a "neckbeard?"
This is, quite literally, the same argument structure as "Sonic was always bad, lol." People have contemporary criticisms of a brand because of changing quality/themes. Contrarians who don't care gaslight critics by insisting that there was no change and they were just too stupid to realize it at first in order to discount any criticism. Very bad faith.
apparently it can't change. right disney? disney is always been good. lol
Woke wasn't a thing when 92 Xmen was on.
bro dont know his country history LMAO.. woke was a word created in the 60', with segregation
So to Rachel, what allegory is applicable to Apocalypse, a tyrannical Social Darwinist? Or Mr. Sinister, someone who tries to min-max a mutant like a video game character as a life goal?
Or when they went into space to fight the Shi'ar empire?
These idiots will move on from comics when they inevitably lose interest and move onto the next thing.
Silly kids who have been reading comics for 10 mins gatekeeping the people who have been keeping the industry alive for decades.
There is no IP in film, television, or print media created before 2010 that was "always Woke".
07:10: Actually, there's a piece of dialogue in Generation X #50 that proves that Spidey's PR campaign probably would have worked:
Civilian in peril: "What's wrong with your skin?! I'm not gonna be saved by no mutie!"
Skin: "Relax, man. Relax. I'm not a mutant. I was bitten by a radioactive elephant, which turned my skin gray and gave me the power to stretch."
Civilian in peril: "Oh... That's OK, then."
Like a lot of the franchises that welcome people with open arms the crazies came and ruined it
The “X-Men/Star Trek were also woke” people are the definition of the stupid SpongeBob meme.
The thing that made Xmen interesting is the issues they face as mutants, not as nonbinary or whatever other BS these "writers" try to force onto the characters.
Also the fact that that the LGBT poster girls Mystique and Destiny are mass murderers, with Mystique being a serial rapist.
Being lectured by anyone born after 9/11 about what is right in the world is sickening to me. These kid activists know nothing.
You nailed it. Make stories about social issues, but it needs to take us for a ride. Don't beat us with the message hammer in a boring story. Give us stuff like To Kill a Mockingbird.
Dude I totally agree with you. Characters are written the way they were and I'm fine with that. What I am not fine with is demands to make Rogue black, Mystique a mom and dad now and characters like Morph non binary suddenly. Why all these OTT nonsense changes 🙄
They bastardized the "Awakening" movement and turned it into this "woke" travesty we are fighting now.
I am a X-men fan and a leftist, I hate wokeness!!
You can't be a leftist and hate wokeness. That contradicts. It's oxymoronic. Like saying I'm for wokeness and I'm also Right-Wing, too. It doesn't make sense.
I think you mean you're left leaning. Leftists are by definition: woke.
I think the word you are looking for is classic liberal.
@@incubustimelord5947You are incredibly wrong. Lots of liberal people hate the woke culture, myself included. That's like saying all republicans are racist. Just ignorant.
@@incubustimelord5947 I am the kind of person that likes good storytelling and a movie that isn’t political in Either way
The way Aaron had done the intro for this video is great 😂🤣👍
the "allegory" thing with x-men is now irrelevant, outdated, and obsolete because of marvel comics itself. the x-men and the mutants are now murderers, segregationists and supremacists. lol. they're literally: MUTANTS only sign post. how is that a civil rights allegory? lol.
Yes I told this many times in this channel. How these characters can be heroes again after killed so many humans foes in this Era? There's no more room to heroism,mercy or idealism to them anymore after Krakoa Era.
@@EvandroACruz x-men is about being a school for mutants. never saw it as a school for years
@@cheeseburgersuperior1874Morrison ruined this in the early 2000's,
@@EvandroACruz ironically that x-men revolution got it right.
I have read X-Men since 1975. Everybody was persecuted for being a Mutant. Northstar came out in 1992. He was gay in Alpha Flight. Who cared?? His twin sister was gorgeous. I loved Cyclops for the cool glasses, I loved Iceman cause he was the youngest of the group. I had to wear glasses from before I was two, and I was the baby of the family. After 52 years in print, (since I was 8) Marvel changed Iceman’s sexuality for sales. Change drive sales. Every good character’s first appearance or major change increase sales. “Death of Superman” is the greatest example. Now back to reality: Sir Ian McKellen IS Magneto and Gandalf The Gray. He just happens to be gay. I don’t care!!! He is one of the greatest actors of his age. Patrick Stewart is his best friend in the real world. He is not gay. I don’t care about that either. When you see them together you can tell they love each other. No matter their sexual preference. Watch Graham Norton’s Show. Stewart, McKellen, and Hugh Jackman are on together. They truly show their affection for each other.
I remember being called a "lair" by suppose fans for simply saying X-men was not made to be about civil rights. The idiots that said X-men were coming back and the new show was the beginning, you cannot complain.
This is the X-men you wanted.
It was based on civil rights though, at least from pretty early on. But in the *original* sense, the Martin Luther King sense (todays so-called liberals hate him), not anything like today's woke distortions of civil rights.
@@HeyMykeeit wasn't though
@@HeyMykeelol whaat? Liberals dont hate MLK. The issue is cinsercative attempt to limit MLK to 1 line from 1 speech while ignoring the hundreds of his other writings.
Lets be honest here
those idiots don't know you just live in one.
."I loved that idea; it not only made them different, but it was a good metaphor for what was happening with the civil rights movement in the country at that time."- Stan Lee
You nailed all the points.
Nothing worse than a surface nerd trying to tell somebody who’s been a true fan of a thing what it’s all about. You both nailed it. So glad I bought the X-Men omnibus slipcase edition. Outside of few other storylines that I’ll pick up the collected editions, I’m done with it. I’ve got plenty to keep me occupied and entertained. There’s 60 plus years of good stories and art. No one has to bother with god awful fanfic and tumblr art.
The new X-men cartoon is calling Morph nonbinary because he’s a shapeshifter when Mystique was a shapeshifter in always a female. Also the original cartoon referred to him as he severely times because that nonbinary bs never existed lol.
Gender non binary isn't a thing at best morph is technically hermophroditic because he can switch sexes but his original form is still a he just like Mystique is always a she. That is not the same as being some alternate category outside of he or she which nonbinary supposedly represents.
#1 The Black Panther debuted in July 1966. The Black Panther Party was founded in October 1966.
#2. The X-Men started out as a super-powered ROTC. Students wearing matching uniforms defending the establishment, taking orders from FBI agent Fred Duncan in Washington D.C.
#3 The X-Men used to fight for “The Dream” of integration, mutants and humans living together in peace and harmony. Since God Loves, Man Kills, Days of Futures Past and X-Tinction Agenda, the idea that The Right is actively trying to commit genocide on minorities has been an overarching theme. Now, The Dream is dead and the X-Men practice and advocate segregation.
X-men were a great allegory for any outsider doing the right thing because it was right even if no one appreciates ot understands you, even if they hate you, you do what's right because it's right and that alone. You and your deeds matter even if the world is against you.
The comics went to shit when they abandoned Xavier's dream and dealing with the struggles of upholding it even in the face of extermination. They stopped being Super Heroes with very human flaws to deal with and overcome and just became Super Powered avg people justifying or giving in to their flaws rather than overcoming them.
The X-men used to be Delenn/Sheridan from Babylon 5 in Comes The Inquisitor.
"No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, .. not for glory, not for fame. For one person, .. in the dark .. where no one will ever know .. or see."
It's not the powers you have or the villains you fight that make you a hero, it's doing the right thing even when you have every reason not to, even when it hurts you, even if you're forgotten or hated, even if it kills you.
Once they lost that they lost their heroism. Imho anyway.
These people seem to think that woke means anything that has a positive message. Woke doesn't mean "a story with a message." Woke is pandering, heavy-handed writing that prioritize agenda and message over plot and character. X-Men was an action/adventure comic first.
I'm gay. I'd love to have gay characters--except these writers have no idea how to make decent gay characters. Their entire personality becomes "gay." Iceman is a great example. He lost all of his personality when he was...turned gay by Jean Grey? It's so insulting. And I have no idea why any gay person would celebrate turning a straight character gay, as it's just pandering and desperate. People would be fine with a gay character if the character were sort of badass and fun. I remember people loved characters like Micheletto Corella from The Borgias. He was the best character on the show and no one cared that he was gay because he was so freaking cool.
Holy shit media literacy has left the room
It was just mutants vs humans. That was it. Nowadays when they put all this LGBTcalifragisexpealidocius and this race nonsense on the X-men, they are basing it on struggle but who is more accepted? mutants or these wokesters? The latter doesn't even come close in struggling these days. There is no real struggle in comparison.
I'm convinced they didn't include Colossus because he is Russian and a good human being- we aren't allow to view Russians as human.
I'm seriously curious what Chris Claremont thinks about how all these stories are trying to do bluntly what he did subtly while still writing good stories. Has he done any interviews lately about this crap? Does anyone know? Is he on the woke train or not?
morph was created to die. he is a shapeshifter, not a mentally ill man.
That was my thoughts exactly they should never go into something that was supposed to take place in 1997 with 2020's sensibilities. It's something that is jarring and pulls you out of submersion.
I have no interest in listening to what she’s written
Even if you accept the premise that the X-Men were always about tolerance and diversity, it was a much more nuanced conversation. Mutants were mistreated and dealt with prejudice, but the comics acknowledged that the concerns of humanity had some merit. Apocalypse was dangerous. Magneto’s crusade was a self-fulfilling prophecy, creating the very fear and mistrust he used to justify his actions. The activists would never countenance such a discussion now.
Even The X-Men could be dangerous because violent members like Wolverine and former super-villains like Emma Frost.
*Humanism isn't Woke*
*Humanism isn't Woke*
*HUMANISM ISN'T WOKE*
do you get it?
As a gay republican 61 year old X-men fan the I find most if not all of the books unreadable, never blame your fans! The X men was always a tent pole for mutants from all walks of life now they narrowed it down to just sexual deviations and they are not even good stories. SMH
The X-Men were never woke, they were diverse. The characters were different genders, races and religions not because the creators were checking off boxes like the woke do, but for the benefit of the story.
When do we see Aaron’s action figure collection?
Remember when every Spider-Man cover said something along the lines of "New York's non-mutant superhero"?
The xmen were always woke lol that is the point of xmen.
No they fucking werent you absolute fool.
Joined on patreon!
Awesome 👊
When the Mary Sue closes, it won’t be missed.
I feel sorry for any cat stuck in one of these wahmen's place of residence. What a burden to be the only source of affection these creatures ever recieve. In that sentence the wahmen ate the creatures. 😂
Magneto (especially Clairemont-era Holocaust survivor Magneto) was likely modeled after Orthodox Rabbi Meir Kahane, whose dedication to the phrase "Never Again" lead him to become an extremist (the ideology of Kahanism is named for him, and is considered in many circles to be one of the worst things a Jew can call another Jew). If I were to attempt to construct an Xavier-counterpart in the Jewish community, I would probably link it to Conservative Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel, who was considered a leading _professor_ on Jewish ethics and mysticism as well as a leading author on Jewish philosophy, marched alongside MLK at Selma, was even called a "great prophet" by MLK, and built various other bridges with the Christian community, including at the Second Vatican Council where he persuaded the Catholic Church to remove various antisemitic sections of the liturgy.
Just put this here since the video mentions the Jewish backgrounds of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby and cites that influence on Professor X and Magneto, which is seldom mentioned outside of the Jewish community.
Didn’t Claremont base Magneto off of Menachem Begin? The terrorist who later became a statesman? I think I read Claremont said that somewhere.
@@ShilohLux.13 Claremont based the relationship and personalities of his versions of Professor X and Magneto off of the relationship and personalities of David Ben Gurion and Menachem Begin, however Begin shares almost no similarity in origin story with Claremont's Magneto (the same can be said of Kahane, who I cited however).
@@jagnestormskull3178 Oh I see! Thanks!
Revisionist history & Presentism is a hell of a drug.
Also I’ve hated “edutainment” crap….now these freak activists have created a new genre “preachtainment”.
Very astute conversation. The same thing has been happening to my beloved Star Trek since 2017. In fact, you could replace "X-Men" with "Star Trek" in your conversation and it would be 100% relevant.
You see leftists talk about Star trek, and they are like why did you think Star Trek was ever for you right wingers?....The better question I have is why do you think all the values of Star trek are exclusively left wing? I mean all people willing actually go into space face danger, do hard work...I don't imagine this an environment where you'd run into may leftwingers. Modern leftists look down on any who does blue collar work and uses their hands. They're way too big of sissies to go out and fight people like Kirk regularly did as he blew off the big government to do things through rugged individualism, not kowtow to mandates. Historically, the left were always the ones pushing all the racism, (The KKK, nazis, identity politics) so where do they get off claiming tollerance as their value? It's revisionist history at it's best, they accuse people of being what they have always been. (The political parties switched myth...oh so the democrats don't have own they were party of slavery...) I fail see what is so left leaning about Star Trek beyond they did away with money... rightwingers don't want to slave wages either. We wanted our fair share but again only activists can have these virtues as rightwigners are soulless drones who work for corp(despite the left shares all the values they're told to by large companies....)
It’s crazy times when a parody show (the Orville) is more Star Trek than the legitimate contemporary Star Trek (Discovery🤮)
Yeah they’re not for us. The ones who have supported these characters for decades, it’s not for us. It’s for the they/them blue haired woke feminist who have never spent money on a comic book in their lives. Makes sense!
I never thought I would live to see a day when a new comic, show, movie or anything new from my favorite comics, or Star Wars or Trek, or anything I'm a fan of came out and I thought "couldn't care less!" I'm out until the age of wokeness ends. I'll keep remembering the past and celebrate that.
From what I heard from Chris Claremont, the mutants vs humans conflict was actually inspired by the Israel/Palestine conflict
Take the X-men back from the woke hordes
Guys, guys! This Florence Pugh lookalike obviously knows better. I guess we're just gonna have to deal with it.
SJWs also appropriated the rainbow from God and decided it's the symbol for LGBT etc. lol
If she looks like Florence Pugh, I'm the frigging Pope.
FINALLY PEOPLE ADMIT THEY KEEP USING WOKE WRONG
Thanks for finally confirming my theory that the X-Men were based on Jews. It always made sense, but I didn't have the reference to the two rabbi's, Irving Greenberg and Meir Kahane.
Stan Lee was already telling an anti-bigotry story with the X-Men as he said they were a good metaphor for what it’s like to be different. My question to the woke mob is why change them? why not leave them as they are? why not leave X-Men exactly as Stan Lee created them?
Who are these new showrunners trying to change anything or try to tell their story? They are nobodies!! and definitely NOT better than STAN LEE!!
The looks like Florence Pugh line really got me. 🤣
Anyone saying Stan Lee was writing a civil rights allegory just proves to me that they haven't read a Stan Lee comic. Stan is not a man of subtle metaphors.
Comics were never "woke" or "political ". They were always about universal morality. Spider-man had to deal with always doing the right thing, even if to the detriment of himself and others. Wolverine had to atone for a dark past and be a better person. Everyone could relate to both.
Everything is political. You can decide to not “read” things as political (which is totally fine), but that doesn’t mean they are not
Um... Watchmen
“Comics were never political”, republicans when they forget that spider man issue one of the bad guys was a republican hating Gwen Stacy dad for being a liberal.
@@kwancomicsexactly these folks forgot about that guy that was a republican that wanted to hunt spider man and hated captain stacy for being a liberal lol.
At the risk of being the contrarian here, while they weren’t meant to be progressive, they wound up being so. What people misunderstand is that they do not belong to one type of minority. They can stand for anyone who is deemed a misfit. That is why them being mutants above all else as the focal point is crucial. It is something neutral and soft. The misfit can be anyone even a person who is white, straight, male and Christian. We have all been outcasted and misunderstood sometimes.
There's definitely messages with in xmen, but they weren't about any specfic group as you said. Woke activists believe only the oppressed ever truly suffer and there for it's not about you, which is utter nonsense. People of all walks of life can be bullied, as people who have good traits like being really tall, really smart or well endowed are made feel like freaks because jerks use low hanging fruit to attack them since they typically aren't very smart. Plenty of people can feel like outcasts as thats who Xmen really are. People suffering is part of the human condition, and wokies don't want to see that way.
FINALLY SOMETHING I CAN RELATE TOO 💀💀, so much xmen videos on this has a bunch of liberals gaslighting
I'm finishing out my contract with DC. I'm tired of this shit, I'm tired of them ruining these characters; they don't have a right to do this. At Comic-Con in 2009, I was pushing Jerry Robinson's wheelchair around. That's the man who invented the Joker. I would work the DC booth back then. I remember bending down to his face and telling him, thank you for creating these characters, so people like me can waltz in and get a job. It's not about gay or anything else. What really pissed me off was saying truth, justice, and a better world, when that it was Truth, Justice, and the American way. My Grandpa almost died in World War II; we don't have a right to destroy stuff that people died for to give us. It's a bunch of nonsense. They call us bigots and racist and shit, I would ask them, find me in the mainstream, not on the fringes, one book, one t-shirt, one movie that says that leftism is bad, and conservatism is good, find it for me, they won't they're not letting people have a voice, they're the bigots. Sorry, that's been bottled up for five years.
I agree with every point you made except I live in San Francisco and know more than white liberal girls would agree with her article
The same C-U-Next-Tuesday that said @Nerdrotic has never watched Doctor Who. I've been reading X-Men before this cow was born.
Cringe and reddit tier
Whenever anyone says X men (or whatever property) was always woke, my response is, “Why change it then?”
They would probably say it just needs to be expanded.
I said it before, and I say it again: non-bynary wasn't a thing in 1997