Retired Marine E-8 here. I was a Scout Sniper and an instructor at 2nd MarDiv Scout Sniper School. Honestly, it was always a struggle trying to get sniper teams employed the way we should have been. The officers didn't know anything about our employment except for a few hours of classroom instruction they learned at their commanding officer school. They were absolutely clueless (most of them.) The senior officers were and are the problem.
@@RetiredTop43 In recent years, the relationship between USMC senior officer leadership and political influences has sparked debates within defense circles. A critical concern among some observers is the perception that senior Marine Corps officers may prioritize political considerations over the overall strategic mission of the Marine Corps. This issue raises important questions about the implications for military readiness and effectiveness. Senior officers in the Marine Corps, operate within a framework that is influenced by civilian leadership, national policy, and budgetary constraints dictated by Congress. This relationship can lead to situations where political agendas may inadvertently overshadow military objectives. Decisions about force structure, resource allocation, and strategic focus can become entangled with political considerations, potentially diverting attention from the Corps' mission to maintain combat readiness and adaptability. The establishment of defense policies and funding priorities is often shaped by political agendas. Senior officers may feel pressure to align the Marine Corps' strategic initiatives with the current administration's objectives, which can lead to a shift in focus from core military competencies to supporting broader political goals. This alignment may hinder the ability of Marine leaders to advocate for what they see as necessary enhancements to operational capabilities. When political considerations overshadow strategic military planning, the impacts can resonate throughout the ranks. A distracted leadership may struggle to maintain focus on core missions, leading to decreased readiness and potential operational impairments. Furthermore, junior Marines may become disillusioned if they perceive that their leadership is not dedicated to the true mission of defending the nation, but rather to navigating the political landscape. It is essential for senior Marine Corps senior officers to find a balance between the realities of political influences and their duty to uphold the mission of the Corps. This includes advocating for a clear and coherent strategic vision that prioritizes military effectiveness and adaptability while engaging constructively with political leaders. Transparency, accountability, and consistent communication can help bridge the gap between military and political realms. rapid pace of global change necessitates a forward-looking strategic plan that addresses evolving threats and operational requirements. However, when political pressures arise, particularly during election cycles, there can be a tendency to prioritize initiatives that garner immediate political support rather than addressing long-term strategic needs. This can result in a reactive posture rather than a proactive approach to national defense.
Marine Scout here, scouts are the guys that came about after they scrapped the snipers. In my humble opinion as a marine for the last 6 years, Marine Corps are not about to exist in the next 10 years if it keeps going down this path. Few MARSOC and recon guys I did speak to, are talking about switching over to the army and going the green beret route.
From what I've read it looks like they want a force that can send units out to operate independently, isolated on islands. That's a SERE level gut check for every non-infantry Marine, in every unit across the Marine Corps. There have to be cuts.
They have been in talks about ending the Marines when I was in I think Mattis kind of saved them but they lost their propaganda power and there is like really only a few die hard Marine officers when it comes to the legacy of the corps. I believe the Navy sees them as a burden to their budget(because they don't even really have ice breakers & various ships) and they will pretty much not be seen as the landing force they once were and just go back to being a security element for Navy ships. Also the Army has a fleet of Logistic support vessels(landing crafts). It's interesting what will become of the Marines maybe Space Force will accept them Lol all jokes aside I can see the corps getting split and sent to various branches. Sorry for the long winded opinionated peace but our unit also had a lot of marines come over.
The Marines got rid of scout snipers, tanks, a lot of admin jobs, they're sliming down infantry MOSs - I wouldn't be surprised if they rolled them back into FORCE and Battalion Recon. I would imagine many of them would just join Army SF at that point.
Do they even need Battalion Recon anymore seeing that's what satellites and drones are for? The US Army got rid of their long range recon units years ago.
@@abp1400Navy MPs and Navy civilians. The Army also is reducing its MP Corps in favor of civilian police officers. Of course the Army isn’t getting rid of MPs completely like Marines but the Army MP force is much smaller now in favor of civilians.
Team, I am going to lay down some truth here. I am an almost 30 year Army Veteran and I am even a JFK graduate, but this isn’t about me right now this is just an observation but it’s pretty darn truth among those that know. In my long Army career I spent a lot of time around USMC NCO’s, Officers, Senior NCO’s and Senior Officers. Even pilots (different breed altogether). What I am about to write is the fundamental truth: the USMC does not believe in a “Special” Marine. Period. Upon graduation from entry level training, when a young man or woman becomes a Marine that’s it, that’s the top, Eagle, Globe and Anchor, earned the title of U.S. Marine, that’s it, done. Same goes for officers as they earn their commissions. The Marines do not formally embrace “airborne” Marines as something “better” or improved. In fact, the Marines reject Army “Lead Wings” and after their own specifications, they wear their own USMC gold jump wings (I will not comment on USMC standards, that’s their world, at one time USMC Wings were permitted after 10 jumps past U.S. Army Basic Airborne School). Marines routinely attend U.S. Army Ranger School, but you’d never know it, again, another U.S. Army thing not widely celebrated in the USMC. In the Army “refinement” happens, and it is easily visible on a Soldier’s uniform, for example you become Airborne, you’re no longer “Leg,” you earn a tab, you earn a long tab, you earn Jumpmaster stars or wreaths, you become better, you earn Senior or Master ratings, you can easily tell “this Soldier has been to combat…” and “wow, this Soldier is super qualified…” In the Army “special Soldiers” happen, they are slowly made and refined, ultimately some are selected and ultimately some earn elite accomplishments, maroon berets are earned, different color berets are earned also. On “jump status” is earned and maintained. Once at the top, Quiet Professions become quiet’er. MARSOC, Raiders, Scout Snipers, SOCOM, J-SOCOM, these are all refined, “polished, more distinctive in their application Marines” but the Marine Corps themselves is uncomfortable in that skin. Ask any Marine. In USMC circles E-5’s talk to other E-5’s about stuff, O-3’s coordinate with other captains at Range Control, there is no “cross rank coordination or socialization” if it can be avoided, in the Army if there’s a Staff Sergeant who is the expert at rental vans from the civilian airport , everyone talks to that NCO politely, it’s no big deal to follow instructions from someone who is not my same rank. In my day I could never get a Marine to call me by my first name, just couldn’t do it, I was always an Officer, in the Army, at certain times, we set that aside to be teammates and to be equals. My best Battle Buddies were of other ranks but you wouldn’t know it if you listened to us talking shop. I have no disrespect for the USMC, in fact I have an immense amount of admiration and respect for them, they pride themselves on being: The few, the proud, the Marines. Military bearing, customs and courtesies are a big deal. Uniform is a big deal. Haircuts are a big deal. Discipline is a big deal. Calling building features nautical terms like “hatches” or “poop decks” is a big deal. U.S. Marines in Multi-cam? U.S. Marines calling each other or other branch senior leaders by their first names, when authorized? I never saw it. Beards, longer hair, Roughs (a type of Ft. Bragg uniform), civilian clothes mixed with military kit, flipped back caps, hands in pockets, relaxed, “unconventional,” unconventional tactics or procedures, it’s a stretch for my Marine Corps brothers. It’s just not “fitting a Marine…” This is sad news about MARSOC but it doesn’t surprise me. Thank you for the video Airborne.
I heard a guy in the Unit who has a teammate who is a marine. Even when you're in Delta as a marine the corp leadership still shits on you. They see it as an insult to the corp to be in an army unit, no matter how elite.
@hamie7624 they are going to become irrelevant if they don't get their act together and adjust their attitude. It took some arm twisting to create MARSOC in 06, three years into the War on Terror when the demand for Operators was at an all time high.
as a prior Marine grunt and earning my way into BN recon and then the Force company back in the early 1980’s; you sir are entirely correct in your assessment. my Corps greatest strength is also its greatest liability. the proud history of the Corps may be its ultimate demise. i have met a few MARSOC operators over the years and they are the best warriors the Marine Corps has ever produced but they are being held back and stifled by BIG Marine Corps because of the attitude that there is no elite forces within the Corps because the whole Corps is elite. which is total bullsnot. just my 2 cents. take it for what it is.
Same happened in 1944, the Marine Raider Battalions I believe became the 4th Marine Regiment. The Marine Corps claimed the Raiders had outlived their original mission.
Btw the reason why is because it’s not only because they’re mission set is very similar but the marines are way more mature then the modern SEAL community all together.
I’ve thought and said the same thing, at least about the land based portion of the SEALs, but Marine Corps Philosophy is, and has always been, ideally those types of units are best used as reconnaissance, for larger forces. In general, if they get into a fight, something went wrong. So if you fold the SEALs into the Corps, there is a good chance we lose that capability, which would be very handy in a looming war in the Pacific.
The Corps got away from it's original mandate. It literally turned into a smaller version of the Army. I get it, no Jarhead wants to see his or her beloved Corps reduced. It's especially hard for any MOS to swallow the pill of elimination. Eventually, mission will dictate the return of whatever was discarded. The one thing that the Marine Corps does is adapt to political, social, technological and peer changes without sentimentality. The generals do what they must to endure that the Eagle, Globe and Anchor survives.
@jamiephillips5930 PBS ran a older 2000s era series called Super Carrier. 🚢 About real missions, deployed USMC, Navy, DoD types at sea. 1 Marine 🛩 was on a deck messed up. A navy officer was angry over the fluids, leaks. The USMC air wing E-6s E-7s said the plane had no parts, no budget to repair it. 🤷🏽♂️ .... This showed the 2010s 2020s future of Marines, USMCR.
The biggest thing I think it drives Marine Corps battle space commanders nuts is Marine Corps assets not being available to Marine Corps commanders. Even in the recon side of the house, they used to be some pissing matches that went on with battle space commanders on the use of Marine Corps sof units. When we would do SOC Quals for the Marine Expeditionary Units they would absolutely loose their minds if there were SOCOM Commanders onboard that would take Recon teams be it R&S or Force to conduct operations on their to lighten their work load, and forcing the rest of the MAGTAF to use more conventional units to conduct specialized missions that are alien to them that would otherwise be Recon’s bread and butter. Being somebody that was on both sides of that coin as a conventional Operations force MARDIV Corpsman and later on a SARC, I definitely got to see how it stretched the Improvise, adapt and overcome model to a limit. The scout sniper MOS going away was a big punch to the gut, because a lot of of those guys within the conventional forces ranks had specialized training in reconnaissance and surveillance. The only issue was our methods of insertion were limited as to the Recon assets. And what I’m talking about, there is certain is qualification in static drops and HALO jumps that would otherwise allow us either a rapid deployment, or to bypass enemy, entry control, and access denial methods. MAGTAF Commanders would have to stretch their means by having to do direct helicopter or amphibious insertions with LAV’s or AAV’s which is quite a bit more risky than having to do a closed circuit combat, dive, or halo jump would. When First Force Detachment 1 came around in 2006 they raped Force on a bunch of its most qualified operators to fill its ranks and it wasn’t too popular with big Marine Corps. there have been a lot of restructuring ideas that I’ve been going on with the Marine Corps lately and MARSOC has been mentioned any a lot of of it. It wasn’t only the scout snipers that took a hit, the Marine Corps got rid of his heavy armor and no longer has M1A1 Abrams tanks, no more electronic warfare assets like the E/A-6B Prowler jets, and they have been itching to try and reabsorb all of those skilled operators from MARSOC back into RECON. I don’t know, personally, I like the fact that Marine Corps got a piece of the SOCOM budget, there have been a lot of schools and necessary training that I thought if recon was getting all along, would’ve made us a more formidable fighting force, and it sucks that if we lose more sock, we might wind up losing some of those schools as well.
So do you think that jr corpsman who are interested in going down the SARC/SOIDC pipeline should look more so to transfer over to SF in the army for schools, languages, budget and more opportunities instead of staying greenside navy/marine corp team? Asking for a friend
Marine GySgt here. I was there in 2005-06 preparing to deploy when MARSOC building and grounds was up and running. Those young Marines were hungry. I had a chance to see those Marine Snipers in Action, man, they were awesome in my opinion. I understand budget cuts, don't get rid of those guys. Those operators and snipers are needed more than you think. Much respect to those guys and wishing nothing but the best. Semper Fi!
The last I read is that the Marine Corps is not cutting the MARSOC (Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command) program. Recently, in fact, rather than eliminating the program, there have been ongoing discussions and initiatives focused on evolving and integrating MARSOC more effectively within the broader Marine Corps and U.S. Special Operations Command (SOCOM) framework. The focus has been on optimizing their capabilities and ensuring that they align with current and future military needs. This involves enhancing training, equipment, and operational strategies to meet the demands of modern warfare and mission requirements. MARSOC continues to play a vital role in special operations and is a key component of the Marine Corps' strategic capabilities.
The documents i read, it makes it seem like they want MARSOC to pull double duty, by shaping the battlefield for the fleet MEF (ala force recon 2.0) as well as pick up FID and other missions as needed. i think the USMC is trying to pull control of MARSOC away from SOCOM and not necessarily eliminate it.
Not when the army suffers cut backs too. Army has more general today than in WW2, they are way too top heavy, and when they go, so do the rest. US military is a disaster today anyway. Something will implode soon.
I'm just using my knowing the reasoning behind the history. I don't believe SOCOM ever 'asked' for MARSOC. 2006 SF was at a critical time of manning, two wars were at full steam, and the initial stop-loss was lifted, catapulting many operators into six-figure contracting jobs. The Marines' 30-year 'no special ops' policy was depriving them of the obscene SOF pot of money. I think when the Marines said they were going to expand their experimental unit Det-1 into a full force, SOCOM just agreed to funding if they were doing all the work. SF would like to dump their FID mission on someone to pursue more Direct Action anyway. When the Marsoc debute combat mission didn't go too well, and the value added wasn't appreciated. Sharks began to circle when other more politically established SOF units in SOCOM were licking their lips over that money after the war was over. With SOCOM less willing to hand over money, it throws their expense back in the Marine Corps lapp. The Raiders do walk around telling conventional Marines to get lost when someone wants to nit pick them. So I believe Marine brass wants to disband MARSOC, give their SOF title and a few extra classes to Force Recon. Believe it or not, learning the inner workings of recruiting command. During hard times of force manning, the military actually prefers to let the cost of one senior troop go and replace him with ten privates. You might say there is an investment in the experienced guy, but the military sees it as bottom up. The 9 to 1 cost fills their numbers and funding easier than one expensive guy. Business do it too, they rather have many 'revolving door' employee's than carry one guy to retirement and owe him a pension, too. Remember the Marine budget is a subset of the Navy budget. If Marsoc competes with the Seal mission, how many Seal Admerals are there compaired to Marsoc Generals are there? Before Marsoc, many Marines migrated into other services SOF units. Like they often tell me, "The Marines is a good place to grow up, but you don't want to live there." Nothing against them who tried to be the best they could, I think other SOF units would welcome free talent. Grunts, even special ones, are cheap to the cost of one aircraft. I think as long as the Marines have had stupid decision makers, all SOF units should have always been poaching Marines. It's hard to beat them into the dirt more than they already have been, but you can sure insentivise them with training. Too easy, it's like poor Marines just standing on the corners holding signs saying, "Will work for ammo!"
Lots of former recon and raiders switch to army after their contract with USMC. Check out Socom Athlete SF National guard event and you’ll see lots of marines in that event .
Former Ssgt, 0369. I have a theory: knowing Marine Corps higher, on top of the financial issue they don't like the process involved with losing their Marines to MARSOC. They were already losing personnel to Force Recon, then they have to see some of their hard chargers leave the line platoons to go work for SOCOM, which the Marine Corps does not control. As Recon Marines, the Corps is still in charge of them as they are still a Marine Corps asset.
If they get rid of MARSOC that will be one of the biggest fqils in Marine Corps history And yea i was with 2/6 Golf Co USMC 0311 team leader 2 deployments to Afghanistan The MARINE CORPS NEED MARSOC
50 yrs ago there was no 1st and 3rd Force Recon Companies, they were completely disbanded when they returned from Vietnam. The Corps will drop whatever they feel they don't need today.
Old guy here. I remember when Special Operations Command stood up in the 80s. Big Marine Corps was against special units and the Commandant offered the entire Corps to be part of USSOCOM. Eventually they qualified every deploying MEU as special operations capable. So yea, there was no love lost for a special unit inside the Corps.
I was a contractor on the selection process for MARSOC. CSMs in the Marine Corp don't think anyone is special because everyone in the Marine Corp is special.
Till today recon guys aren’t respected and are only called special operation capable instead of being fully recognized as special operations forces like even Rangers do. But I guess the Marine senior enlisted and officer leadership didn’t fight well enough for that
@@CheyannaTrujilloYes, I didn't want to word it that way, but that's the way it was argued. You can look up Marine Corps Gazette articles at the time and that was the base argument.
0321 here. I trained the 1st MARSOC guys. the biggest issue I had was that the original guys all came from 1st and 2nd Force (Mostly 2nd Force) and the current Raiders are not seasoned veterans. When I came into the recon community, I had been a Sgt and had been in for 6 years. I brought my experience as an 0311/0341 to the game and, upon graduating from BRC-3-95, I easily melded into the recon game, becoming the Ops Chief in 2 years. The new guys arrive to the show with no experience. THAT is the issue. I can say that SOCOM is really a pain in the ass. I do prefer the old Force Reconnaissance mission as it serves the Marine Corps missions. The Marine Corps and the Navy DO NOT need Congressional approval to deploy.
I always thought it was a bit odd that MARSOC was even created... It seemed like they were just wanting to be seen as more elite, when the regular marines were already supposed to be elite expeditionary marines, who already had recon guys etc within the unit. Best to stay focused on their main roles IMO
When I was in (1972-76), the VN war was ending, 1st and 3rd Force Recon Companies were disbanded. and when I left 3rd MarDiv and got to 2nd Recon Bn, the only remaining Force Recon was 2nd Force. There was no sniper school anywhere, I was S-2 Scout 1/9 and we had no school training on our M-40's while getting ready for Operation Eagle Pull and Frequent Wind in 1973-74. Things picked up in the 1980's and kept growing as the wars increased. Given time, we'll be at war soon enough and the units will be activated to meet the demand. But in peace time, they don't need you. During my time in, the Corps went from 325,00 to about 180,000. I saw guys given discharges after 18 months of service if they wanted an early out. The draft was 2 yrs of service. Almost joined 19th SFG after I got out, worked with them and 5th/7th SFG at Ft. Bragg in 1976 at Counter Guerrilla Warfare School. Might have gone active again, they were great guys in SF.
It's always made sense to me to have the Marine Raiders be what the SEALs are in terms of amphibious maritime special operators. Anti-piracy? Marines. UDT? Marines. Etc. That just makes sense to me. Anything ground combat related is for the Marines.
MARSOC was always on the chopping block once the conflicts in Iraq and A-Stan closed shop. There is really no need to have them and it only makes sense to disband them and transfer some of the operators to Army SOF or back into the Corps. They served their purpose and helped bolster SOF during a time where SOF were operating at a high tempo for years. Hopefully, it will be the last time that SOCOM turns to the Marine Corps. They are much better off looking into the Army and selecting a couple of infantry regiments with support elements and converting them into specialized infantry to carry out assault operations against sensitive near pear targets.
I was a scout-sniper back in the '80s. even back then the officers had issues with the "special forces in a special force". and the thing is, without a ghillie suit you couldn't tell us from the rest of the grunts. most officers never learned how to properly deploy scout-snipers, and just looked down on what I considered special skilled Marines. I mean, as an infantry officer you can't use a specially skilled specially equipped Marine? Forward thinking senior officers have always been in short supply.
As far as specialized jobs go, I think the Army is always going to have better options than the Marine Corps, be that in special operations, information operations, foreign area officer, cyber, etc. It sucks because there are a lot of great guys in the Marines waiting for their shot to go do some specialized billet for two years out of their twenty year career. A lot of times they never end up getting their shot anyway.
thats just the nature of the beast. The Army is well the Army, responsible for land warfare, and land warfare only. So it only makes sense that there are more opportunities for land combat jobs than all the other branches.
If what I've heard is correct, the MARSOC push was aggressive and would hard recruit guys who were double stacked. Wings and bubble. so they would essentially get pulled to go do MARSOC stuff even after they were done being highspeed. A hard suggestion. i think this recent war has done ALOT of overlap with units For Example, the entities doing FID, VSO, Raids, Captures, Direct Action in general etc were. The Combat Arms of the United States Army and Marine Corps Active and National Guard, Navy SEALs, Green Berets, MARSOC, Force Recon.. And whatever 3 letter agency was in the area. it's no surprise the marine corps isn't seeing its use
You should do a show on who's an operator. I've heard podcasts with the usual unit guys that make the rounds that say an operator is only a delta force operator and that's how they see it. It would be an interesting maybe a little spicy topic.
It really depends on who you ask. Some will say just Delta guys because they've completed the Operator Training Course. The term originally comes from the Code of the Special Forces Operator, referring to GB's. I'd say it's broadly used in the SOF community to differentiate from the Combat Arms roles (Operators) and the supporting staff.
If you are a 'Special Ops' team member. Air Force SOW pilots and crewmen and many unit support roles are in Special Operations command too. But some term must separate specific pipeline qualified team door kickers from the SOF fluff. Delta makes up their own terms anyway and it just happened to apply to all 'team guys' Cops interact using Officers, Feds have Agents, the CIA has Opiratives and the military has friendly reprsentives, 'Operators', who are avalible to come canue your forehead.
@@FlakerFPS...not all combat arms are operators. 1st SFOD-Delta are Operators. As for special operations units, they are also support units because they solely exist to support the Infantry. All MOS , including spec.ops., exist to support the Infantry. Army 1st SFOD-Delta and Special Forces Groups are different because they don't exist to support the Infantry although during war time they sometimes take on that role. Army Special Forces are not to be confused with military special operations units. Albeit civilians and many POG's seem to be confused on this.
Gents. Read USMC Force Design to understand why these changes are happening. For example, employment of snipers in the littorals isn’t considered effective, so the Scout Sniper program was disbanded.
@@MDR-hn2yz doesn’t matter what we think. It is being implemented anyways. 2 reasons I know this? General Berger is on the board of where I work, and we are doing an assessment to understand how the Corps can still meet 2030 goals despite its poor implementation thus far.
We need to ask; who is benefitting from cutting out our MARSOC units? We had a budget for armor, snipers, and MARSOC to be going at the same time. Now we've lost two of those three so far! Why? And where is that money going?
If it’s not broke don’t fix it. We need MARSOC. We did just send another 425 million dollars to Ukraine so we can surely keep some of that for MARSOC selection.
I went through PMI school and the LT. Col. was saying why I am just a Lt. instead of a. general. I tell them the truth. They ask why are we having accidents concerning weapons? He said,"When all the weapons are locked up all the time how do you think Marines get to know the weapons they use?" I always respect that Marine. Yet, most general are all about telling people what they want to hear to get promoted for power instead of doing their job.
I'm not a Marine but I've served with several and those are some outstanding men and women. As to why, who knows for sure. As with many things, it isn't always one thing but they got rid of their tanks, you said they got rid of their scout snipers, and now this talk about the potential for losing MARSOC, I hope they aren't gutting the Corps. I do know one thing for sure, especially when it comes to talks about budgets, a nation nearly 36 trillion in debt is disastrous for our military readiness, regardless of the branch, unit, etc. We have to get our financial house in order to keep the defense in order. Of course as a nation, we do most things (defense included) in the most expensive way possible since we are a rich nation so there is a lot of waste too in the defense sector.
As an Army Aviator I had the honor is supporting the MARSOC initial team selection conducted with the Army SF and USMC at the MCMWTC, great experience working with them in 06-07, later met up with them in OEF 2008
The Corps also did away with the Specialized Search Dog program. Yes, the dogs that search for and identify IEDs, weapons caches etc. And to top it all off they got rid of ALL thier tanks. You read that correctly.
The M1 Abrams was what put the nail in the coffin for USMC tanks, they are too big and heavy for efficient sea borne operations. The success that the USMC has had with LAVs just cemented the deal.
I think there is some jealousy there from big Marine Corp. Kind of like how big Army was/is with their SOF. But this War that is coming up i think we will need them. Because we have the potential to be fighting another 2 front war.
The Marines always had the special operations skillset. It was just used for Marine Corps operations. Force Recon was subbordinated to the Division Commander, and Battalion Recon was subbordinated to the Battalion/Regiment Commander. So the skillset isn't going away, but what missions they serve is change. They will return to serving Marine Corps missions.
The trouble is by the time it reaches the operator level that decison is a done deal. If your trying to reach the decionmakers who are able to affect policy you gotta talk to atleast the commandant level. CNO or SECNAV this is bottom level of the people who reallg make this decison.
@@808INFantry11Xwill they give you time of day to answer such sensitive questions? I thought the Commandant and Sergeant Major of the corps just wished all marines a happy birthday, why didn’t they use a similar platform to explain why
Keep Force Recon and Marsoc, move Navy SWCC and EOD to the marines and dump the Seals since Forde Recon and Marsoc do that plus have real infantry training and background
Hell. The Navy doesnt even wanna give money for regular marine Corp much less MARSOC. This shouldnt be a suprise to anyone. Marines are a deadend career path anyways.
No not going to happen MARSOC is here to stay. The budgets for MARSOC comes from SOCOM not the marine corps. As long as SOCOM wants MARSOC they are not going anywhere. Let’s face it the marine corps is not at the top of the decision making chain on this issue.
SOCOM is not dishing money out the way they used to brother. No war.. They already have a group that does their job and have been for decades before them. Also at the end of the day no one controls the Marines but the Marines.
Vet here. If young men want to be in an infantry/special forces type career, choose the Army over the Marines. Army has a bigger budget and a less toxic culture. Best of luck to everyone.
@@1anredefinitely not, speaking as a marine who went army. Most marines switched over to get away from the culture cause it’s mostly toxic and ego based
I'm a Army veteran 1990s. Combat Support/MP. I considered re-enlisting USAF CCT or maybe TACP 🛩 . The programs were strict, rigid 1990s. The Air Force pre GWOT, combat was not really fully set into the JSOC, spec ops structure.
@1anre I've served with many former Marines in the Army, in one of my units we joked that we were "Amphibious qualified" because we had so many former Marines in one place. The soldiers, who still "acted like Marines" either left the Army on their own or were forced out.
@@1anre From my experience, all the former marines I worked with in the Army retain their good marine traits and let the dumb crap slide. They embraced army life while retaining the marine discipline.
I worked on this exact question during the QDR in the mid 2010s. QDR is the definitive strategic document that outlines the way ahead for the military- particularly with forces required a base locations. The reason the marines went the MARSOC route originally was funding. The funding at the time was shifting toward SOF because of the war. The marine leadership followed the money trail and created their own program. The marines in general are the poorest branch of the military based on funding. The marines were able to fund other projects and priorities with their MARSOC stand up. They bought all kinds of stuff for regular marines by playing the SOF game. Everyone with half a brain cell could see at the time the game they were playing. The real question is: is there a financial reason to keep MARSOC today that benefits the marines today like it did 15 years ago? Or has that financial incentive changed today. If is no longer a benefit financially then they are gone. Secondly, they did this previously but not as extreme. Think about the Raiders in WW2. They were disbanded before the war was half over because “every marine is elite.” Always follow the money.
There's so many former Marines in the Army when I was in. Good dudes, and across the board they all had the same story as to why they got out and switched.
The Corps loves to fuck over the grunts bro. No wonder the Corps is bleeding personnel. Why would I even recommend the Corp as a former Marine? Clearly the nonsense of operating on shit budget is old and tired. We needed the budget 10 yrs ago. Guys are going to lat move over to big Army for sure. 100%. Chesty is rolling over in his grave with this nonsense.
its the same as when the Marines get rid of its own Airborne Infantry during the early stages of the Cold War. The Army had the numbers, institutional knowledge, and expertise for Airborne Operations. The Marines having its own Airborne units didn't make sense. The same is true of Special Operations, the Army has had Special Forces units since the 1960s. The USMC didn't stand up its SOF Units until 2006 after a bit of arm twisting. It doesn't make a lot of since for the USMC now that the War on Terror is over.
I dont understand why MARSOC feel the need to wear multicam when the damn SEALs stole our MARPAT pattern for their uniform. And no a Afghan was ever fooled by MARSOC wearing the old cammie pattern anyway. Oh...and MARSOC kinda did and do poke their fingers in the eyes of the big Marine Corps. On small fact: many MARSOC think they arent Marines anymore anyway, and tou could see small things that point to that fact. If you look at the MARSOC PT training manual, the first thing that stuck out to me was the terminology they use. Nowhere in my Marine Corps career have i heard ANY Marine refer to our "conditioning hikes" (aka as "going on a "hump") as "rucking". NEVER. But in that MARSOC training manual, that's what they call it. That's straight out of the Army. The "pack" was called a "ruck" (Army term) in that manual, and it was there and then that I knew some in MARSOC started to try to decouple themselves from tthe Corps.
@@1anre Back in the day I joined the USAF to learn a trade. I was given a contract in an electronics field and chose Biomedical Equipment Technology. I served just shy of six years and got out to a promising career. Many people in medical and technology fields are former military. I have a relative that chose cyber security in the USAF. Many of his peers served an enlistment and got out to good paying jobs and promising careers. It takes all types though and we have to know who we are and who we are not.
Where are these budget cuts coming from? Because IIRC, The School House was largely funded under 0100 funds, not 1106, which is inherently Navy/Marine Corps Funding. If this is strictly a budget issue, it wouldn't be HQMC's call.
2nd FORCON here...pulled from 1sr...sent to Lejeune...stood up 2nd...stood up MARSOC disbanded 2nd...rolled the worthy into MARSOC and sent the rest packing back to 1st Rcn. or Battalion. Then I was out! Had enough of that BS after 16 yrs! That IMO was the beginning of the end! Whatever happened to us? We gladly jumped at Ranger school, SERE, sniper school, Combatan diver,, HALO, mountain warfare, JTAC, anything and everything we could get into to pump up our networth to the Corps and whatever mission set we were handed ! Today the SUCK is real. It’s all political BS! If I had to do it all over I’d go Army, SF, Ranger and work my ass off and hope and pray for UNIT work!
MARSOC needed to go a a while a go. They were created because we needed increased capacity in the 00's during the height of the GWOT, what they didn't bring was any unique capability that wasn't already being provided by the other major SOCOM elements (Rangers, SF, SEALs, AFSOC). What likely should happen is that there should be an SF battalion of Marines on the West Coast (1st Group) and East Coast (5th Group) with the USMC providing some instructors to SWCS. Alternatively, create and 05 level USMC component in the SEALs on the West and East Coasts. No overhead for a command above O5 in the USMC nor a separate school base.
Marscoc was shoved down the Corps throat during the sandbox fun since big war needed more “ operators”. Giving up the Scout Sniper program ( caps on purpose) was Huge mistake. The Corps takes care of the Corp. Ask anybody at Tarawa, Chosin, Khe Shanh, or Fallujah.
This has happened since the beginning of special operations in the Marines as well as Army. Conventional Generals cannot check their ego long enough to accept that unconventional units get shit done!
Honestly the Raiders are super legit and all, but if 1 SOCOM entity has to go, it’ll have to be MARSOC simply because their mission set is no different from Special Forces. Rangers, NSW, AFSPECWAR, Recon Marines, and Green Berets and all have individual unique mission sets that they specialize in.
I am a retired E-7, was with 1st Force Recon 2004 and did the transition into MARSOC Oct 2006. I will tell you big Marine Corps can complain all it wants, MARSOC gets all their funding from USSOCCOM, so they have no say. At the end of the day whatever the Pentagon (SECDEF) says they will get it. In light of the bigger picture globally, things are about to change dramatically, meaning MARSOC will be around for while, so don't sweat it.
No war = gotta redefine things for peace time budgets! At least this shit is understandable. The Navy pulled SEAL’s post Vietnam and forced them back into their rates if I recall…with MARSOC being stood up in 2006, I’d lean it getting retired completely!
I say this comment with all the respect in the world...and maybe its my ignorance of being retired AF...but i always wondered why the Marines had a flyboy program...we do have a force that fly's all the time...lol...its called the Air Force...and we have the Navy that fly's...I also could never figure why this was such a hard concept for others to understand...deployments...AF support multiple branches...i dont get why the marines need their own pilots...instead of keeping expensive aircraft/maintenance/crews/training programs and everything else that comes with flying...keep marsoc, sniper school, and those things....just my opinion though😂😂😂
USMC pilots are specifically trained for close in air support, goes back to the first airplanes during the Banana Wars. Same reason those same pilots work on the ground with the infantry units. All the services have provided air support, but we have our own air force for a reason.
You have to look at the Marine Corps design as a whole, by keeping it's assets organic it allows for greater availability and flexibility for the local commanders. A great example of this is the Marine Expeditionary Unit. It has everything it needs for particular missions sets without relying on any outside entities. This has always been the beauty of the Marine Corps and why it is an effective fighting force when unleashed properly.
Funds are a factor. Marsoc was created as a cool working party for socom since GWOT stretched out its SOF forces. Now that the workload is down, makes sense to being those resources back in house. War in the indopacific will be fought at the MEU level or smaller.
One of my best friends has been a Green Beret for almost 20 years and I asked him about MARSOC....he loves them and said all kinds of great shit about them....but he also said he kinda doesnt know what their purpose is nowadays.....
Everyone here in the comments is talking about budget cuts like we aren't about to start another war in the Middle East. Y'all need to check out Valhalla VFT. We're going to need MARSOC moving forward.
Former Force Recon turned Blackhawk and Apache pilot here. The Marine Corps is making terrible decisions at the Strategic level. The USMC will lose in the long run when good people go elsewhere. Sad.
Scout Snipers aren’t gone they were absorbed by Raiders. The school and skills are still taught, but there are no longer platoons of Snipers. If and I do mean if Raiders go away I have a feeling the scout sniper platoons will come back.
The current Administration is not only hostile towards Special Operations in every branch. But they'd much rather spend that money by giving it to Ukraine, instead of DOD S.O.
Ive heard from random comments by alleged operators in both Force Recon and MARSOC that Force Recon does the same thing anyway, just under SOCOM vs USMC
It's great the Marine Corps has a place in SOCOM and I hope it stays, but as a former Marine, I know how those old men think. Also, SEALS Green Berets, Combat Controllers, they all have specialties...where does MARSOC fit in? MARSOC was created after I got out...what is their specialty?
The thing is MARSOC operations are completely disaggregated from the larger Marine Corps mission. I imagine the institution will try and find ways to obtain more operational control from JSOC towards a Marine Corps mission. Yeah the Marine corps has divested some capabilities, but don’t foresee it being completely dismantled so soon. Marines join MARSOC rather than aspire to be a recon marine because there’s more of a chance at combat with MARSOC. Recon right now is highly overtrained and overqualified asset and Marines feel like their skills and time are waisted.
As a retired Marine I am all about that mission going away. I've always contended that the USMC should stay with it's origins and just be really good Naval Infantry. Everybody needing to be Spec Ops is just WOT nonsense. Sometimes you just need hard di** MF's that can sling it out on the battlefield with awesome firepower and discipline.
Department of the NAVY that why Marsoc is going away. Also DOD spending acquisitions 2025 All US military forces will obtain OCP pattern and implemented by 2027. There was a defense budget brief on CPAN about it. Wasting money . DOD Just wants one vender
@@1anre NO Department of the Navy . You have seal teams that MC member can try out for. Why spend more money when you already have s SFU you're already spending money on. Plus MC wants to spend more money on Embassy protections better training and more MC attached to those protection .
@@1anre at 1 point, pre 2008, Obama the DoD and mil had around 11, 1-1 different camo blends, uniforms. In my day there were 3. Just three. 4 if you considered all black. Some how that worked for 20+ years 🤨 ....
So the Marine corps got rid of tanks artillery and the along law enforcement battalions and sniper units inside of big Marine corps. I'm not sure if that's a good idea or not to become sort of dependent on air supports specifically.
Retired Marine E-8 here. I was a Scout Sniper and an instructor at 2nd MarDiv Scout Sniper School. Honestly, it was always a struggle trying to get sniper teams employed the way we should have been. The officers didn't know anything about our employment except for a few hours of classroom instruction they learned at their commanding officer school. They were absolutely clueless (most of them.) The senior officers were and are the problem.
It's crazy how tanks and scout snipers were removed but they have kept f35s.
I heard they rolled STA assets into Force?
@MichaelEhline what are "sta assets" lol
@@kmartins5604 Surveillance, target, and acquisition.
@@RetiredTop43
In recent years, the relationship between USMC senior officer leadership and political influences has sparked debates within defense circles. A critical concern among some observers is the perception that senior Marine Corps officers may prioritize political considerations over the overall strategic mission of the Marine Corps. This issue raises important questions about the implications for military readiness and effectiveness. Senior officers in the Marine Corps, operate within a framework that is influenced by civilian leadership, national policy, and budgetary constraints dictated by Congress. This relationship can lead to situations where political agendas may inadvertently overshadow military objectives. Decisions about force structure, resource allocation, and strategic focus can become entangled with political considerations, potentially diverting attention from the Corps' mission to maintain combat readiness and adaptability.
The establishment of defense policies and funding priorities is often shaped by political agendas. Senior officers may feel pressure to align the Marine Corps' strategic initiatives with the current administration's objectives, which can lead to a shift in focus from core military competencies to supporting broader political goals. This alignment may hinder the ability of Marine leaders to advocate for what they see as necessary enhancements to operational capabilities.
When political considerations overshadow strategic military planning, the impacts can resonate throughout the ranks. A distracted leadership may struggle to maintain focus on core missions, leading to decreased readiness and potential operational impairments. Furthermore, junior Marines may become disillusioned if they perceive that their leadership is not dedicated to the true mission of defending the nation, but rather to navigating the political landscape.
It is essential for senior Marine Corps senior officers to find a balance between the realities of political influences and their duty to uphold the mission of the Corps. This includes advocating for a clear and coherent strategic vision that prioritizes military effectiveness and adaptability while engaging constructively with political leaders. Transparency, accountability, and consistent communication can help bridge the gap between military and political realms.
rapid pace of global change necessitates a forward-looking strategic plan that addresses evolving threats and operational requirements. However, when political pressures arise, particularly during election cycles, there can be a tendency to prioritize initiatives that garner immediate political support rather than addressing long-term strategic needs. This can result in a reactive posture rather than a proactive approach to national defense.
Marine Scout here, scouts are the guys that came about after they scrapped the snipers. In my humble opinion as a marine for the last 6 years, Marine Corps are not about to exist in the next 10 years if it keeps going down this path. Few MARSOC and recon guys I did speak to, are talking about switching over to the army and going the green beret route.
From what I've read it looks like they want a force that can send units out to operate independently, isolated on islands. That's a SERE level gut check for every non-infantry Marine, in every unit across the Marine Corps. There have to be cuts.
You’re the only Marine I’ve ever met who doesn’t capitalize Marine and Recon.
They have been in talks about ending the Marines when I was in I think Mattis kind of saved them but they lost their propaganda power and there is like really only a few die hard Marine officers when it comes to the legacy of the corps. I believe the Navy sees them as a burden to their budget(because they don't even really have ice breakers & various ships) and they will pretty much not be seen as the landing force they once were and just go back to being a security element for Navy ships. Also the Army has a fleet of Logistic support vessels(landing crafts). It's interesting what will become of the Marines maybe Space Force will accept them Lol all jokes aside I can see the corps getting split and sent to various branches. Sorry for the long winded opinionated peace but our unit also had a lot of marines come over.
@@Ralfi_PoELAthe marines are the oldest branch of the military besides the navy. The marines aren’t going anywhere .
first time on the internet @@philipdru9290?
nobody cares
The Marines got rid of scout snipers, tanks, a lot of admin jobs, they're sliming down infantry MOSs - I wouldn't be surprised if they rolled them back into FORCE and Battalion Recon. I would imagine many of them would just join Army SF at that point.
yup, just like the guys who were dedicated tankers and arty men and didn't wanna reclass in the USMC, they'll just jump to the Army instead.
Do they even need Battalion Recon anymore seeing that's what satellites and drones are for? The US Army got rid of their long range recon units years ago.
They also got rid of MP’s….even allowed them to transfer to the Army.
@@philipdru9290 wait who does the MP functions then? LoL 🤣
@@abp1400Navy MPs and Navy civilians.
The Army also is reducing its MP Corps in favor of civilian police officers. Of course the Army isn’t getting rid of MPs completely like Marines but the Army MP force is much smaller now in favor of civilians.
In war, generals get promoted by spending budget.
In peace, generals get promoted by cutting budget.
That just the game.
Colllld truth !!! 😮💨Funny thing is once we’re gearing up for another war we are under budgeted…Wonder why?😂
Facts
Team, I am going to lay down some truth here.
I am an almost 30 year Army Veteran and I am even a JFK graduate, but this isn’t about me right now this is just an observation but it’s pretty darn truth among those that know.
In my long Army career I spent a lot of time around USMC NCO’s, Officers, Senior NCO’s and Senior Officers. Even pilots (different breed altogether).
What I am about to write is the fundamental truth: the USMC does not believe in a “Special” Marine. Period.
Upon graduation from entry level training, when a young man or woman becomes a Marine that’s it, that’s the top, Eagle, Globe and Anchor, earned the title of U.S. Marine, that’s it, done.
Same goes for officers as they earn their commissions.
The Marines do not formally embrace “airborne” Marines as something “better” or improved. In fact, the Marines reject Army “Lead Wings” and after their own specifications, they wear their own USMC gold jump wings (I will not comment on USMC standards, that’s their world, at one time USMC Wings were permitted after 10 jumps past U.S. Army Basic Airborne School).
Marines routinely attend U.S. Army Ranger School, but you’d never know it, again, another U.S. Army thing not widely celebrated in the USMC.
In the Army “refinement” happens, and it is easily visible on a Soldier’s uniform, for example you become Airborne, you’re no longer “Leg,” you earn a tab, you earn a long tab, you earn Jumpmaster stars or wreaths, you become better, you earn Senior or Master ratings, you can easily tell “this Soldier has been to combat…” and “wow, this Soldier is super qualified…” In the Army “special Soldiers” happen, they are slowly made and refined, ultimately some are selected and ultimately some earn elite accomplishments, maroon berets are earned, different color berets are earned also. On “jump status” is earned and maintained. Once at the top, Quiet Professions become quiet’er.
MARSOC, Raiders, Scout Snipers, SOCOM, J-SOCOM, these are all refined, “polished, more distinctive in their application Marines” but the Marine Corps themselves is uncomfortable in that skin. Ask any Marine.
In USMC circles E-5’s talk to other E-5’s about stuff, O-3’s coordinate with other captains at Range Control, there is no “cross rank coordination or socialization” if it can be avoided, in the Army if there’s a Staff Sergeant who is the expert at rental vans from the civilian airport , everyone talks to that NCO politely, it’s no big deal to follow instructions from someone who is not my same rank.
In my day I could never get a Marine to call me by my first name, just couldn’t do it, I was always an Officer, in the Army, at certain times, we set that aside to be teammates and to be equals. My best Battle Buddies were of other ranks but you wouldn’t know it if you listened to us talking shop.
I have no disrespect for the USMC, in fact I have an immense amount of admiration and respect for them, they pride themselves on being: The few, the proud, the Marines. Military bearing, customs and courtesies are a big deal. Uniform is a big deal. Haircuts are a big deal. Discipline is a big deal. Calling building features nautical terms like “hatches” or “poop decks” is a big deal.
U.S. Marines in Multi-cam? U.S. Marines calling each other or other branch senior leaders by their first names, when authorized? I never saw it.
Beards, longer hair, Roughs (a type of Ft. Bragg uniform), civilian clothes mixed with military kit, flipped back caps, hands in pockets, relaxed, “unconventional,” unconventional tactics or procedures, it’s a stretch for my Marine Corps brothers. It’s just not “fitting a Marine…”
This is sad news about MARSOC but it doesn’t surprise me.
Thank you for the video Airborne.
I heard a guy in the Unit who has a teammate who is a marine. Even when you're in Delta as a marine the corp leadership still shits on you. They see it as an insult to the corp to be in an army unit, no matter how elite.
@hamie7624 they are going to become irrelevant if they don't get their act together and adjust their attitude. It took some arm twisting to create MARSOC in 06, three years into the War on Terror when the demand for Operators was at an all time high.
The stories I've heard from Force Recon guys when they worked with the groups are wild..
as a prior Marine grunt and earning my way into BN recon and then the Force company back in the early 1980’s; you sir are entirely correct in your assessment. my Corps greatest strength is also its greatest liability. the proud history of the Corps may be its ultimate demise. i have met a few MARSOC operators over the years and they are the best warriors the Marine Corps has ever produced but they are being held back and stifled by BIG Marine Corps because of the attitude that there is no elite forces within the Corps because the whole Corps is elite. which is total bullsnot. just my 2 cents. take it for what it is.
The Marine Corp hierarchy was against MARSOC from the beginning. They even went so far as to sabotoge their own teams in combat.
Would love to hear more about this
@@ineedapharmistslink a video about that
@@ineedapharmistsThe information is out there on this.
@@ineedapharmistsMarsoc fox company story I think
They put in all kinda of recce work in nam and told their superiors what they were seeing and no one believed them. Read too many books on it.
Same happened in 1944, the Marine Raider Battalions I believe became the 4th Marine Regiment. The Marine Corps claimed the Raiders had outlived their original mission.
They outlived the budget
Imagine they kept all the tribal knowledge and history all through Vietnam etc.
What will the institution have become today ?
If anything they should replace SEALS with MARSOC Raiders
I agree!
SEAL's rep has been ruined with their frat boy behavior
Btw the reason why is because it’s not only because they’re mission set is very similar but the marines are way more mature then the modern SEAL community all together.
I’ve thought and said the same thing, at least about the land based portion of the SEALs, but Marine Corps Philosophy is, and has always been, ideally those types of units are best used as reconnaissance, for larger forces. In general, if they get into a fight, something went wrong. So if you fold the SEALs into the Corps, there is a good chance we lose that capability, which would be very handy in a looming war in the Pacific.
@@abbybonilla4511 Big time!
The Corps got away from it's original mandate. It literally turned into a smaller version of the Army. I get it, no Jarhead wants to see his or her beloved Corps reduced. It's especially hard for any MOS to swallow the pill of elimination. Eventually, mission will dictate the return of whatever was discarded. The one thing that the Marine Corps does is adapt to political, social, technological and peer changes without sentimentality. The generals do what they must to endure that the Eagle, Globe and Anchor survives.
They obviously don't learn from the past.
@jamiephillips5930 PBS ran a older 2000s era series called Super Carrier. 🚢 About real missions, deployed USMC, Navy, DoD types at sea. 1 Marine 🛩 was on a deck messed up. A navy officer was angry over the fluids, leaks. The USMC air wing E-6s E-7s said the plane had no parts, no budget to repair it. 🤷🏽♂️ .... This showed the 2010s 2020s future of Marines, USMCR.
I didn't know they had scrapped the Scout Sniper program, damn shame.
The biggest thing I think it drives Marine Corps battle space commanders nuts is Marine Corps assets not being available to Marine Corps commanders. Even in the recon side of the house, they used to be some pissing matches that went on with battle space commanders on the use of Marine Corps sof units. When we would do SOC Quals for the Marine Expeditionary Units they would absolutely loose their minds if there were SOCOM Commanders onboard that would take Recon teams be it R&S or Force to conduct operations on their to lighten their work load, and forcing the rest of the MAGTAF to use more conventional units to conduct specialized missions that are alien to them that would otherwise be Recon’s bread and butter. Being somebody that was on both sides of that coin as a conventional Operations force MARDIV Corpsman and later on a SARC, I definitely got to see how it stretched the Improvise, adapt and overcome model to a limit. The scout sniper MOS going away was a big punch to the gut, because a lot of of those guys within the conventional forces ranks had specialized training in reconnaissance and surveillance. The only issue was our methods of insertion were limited as to the Recon assets. And what I’m talking about, there is certain is qualification in static drops and HALO jumps that would otherwise allow us either a rapid deployment, or to bypass enemy, entry control, and access denial methods. MAGTAF Commanders would have to stretch their means by having to do direct helicopter or amphibious insertions with LAV’s or AAV’s which is quite a bit more risky than having to do a closed circuit combat, dive, or halo jump would. When First Force Detachment 1 came around in 2006 they raped Force on a bunch of its most qualified operators to fill its ranks and it wasn’t too popular with big Marine Corps. there have been a lot of restructuring ideas that I’ve been going on with the Marine Corps lately and MARSOC has been mentioned any a lot of of it. It wasn’t only the scout snipers that took a hit, the Marine Corps got rid of his heavy armor and no longer has M1A1 Abrams tanks, no more electronic warfare assets like the E/A-6B Prowler jets, and they have been itching to try and reabsorb all of those skilled operators from MARSOC back into RECON. I don’t know, personally, I like the fact that Marine Corps got a piece of the SOCOM budget, there have been a lot of schools and necessary training that I thought if recon was getting all along, would’ve made us a more formidable fighting force, and it sucks that if we lose more sock, we might wind up losing some of those schools as well.
As someone who finds this topic very interesting, thanks for the history and context. I know a lot of us eat this stuff up...GREAT COMMENT!!
America should be increasing her military units not winding them down at this stage
So do you think that jr corpsman who are interested in going down the SARC/SOIDC pipeline should look more so to transfer over to SF in the army for schools, languages, budget and more opportunities instead of staying greenside navy/marine corp team? Asking for a friend
Marine GySgt here. I was there in 2005-06 preparing to deploy when MARSOC building and grounds was up and running. Those young Marines were hungry. I had a chance to see those Marine Snipers in Action, man, they were awesome in my opinion. I understand budget cuts, don't get rid of those guys. Those operators and snipers are needed more than you think. Much respect to those guys and wishing nothing but the best. Semper Fi!
The last I read is that the Marine Corps is not cutting the MARSOC (Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command) program. Recently, in fact, rather than eliminating the program, there have been ongoing discussions and initiatives focused on evolving and integrating MARSOC more effectively within the broader Marine Corps and U.S. Special Operations Command (SOCOM) framework.
The focus has been on optimizing their capabilities and ensuring that they align with current and future military needs. This involves enhancing training, equipment, and operational strategies to meet the demands of modern warfare and mission requirements. MARSOC continues to play a vital role in special operations and is a key component of the Marine Corps' strategic capabilities.
Okay that's starting to make more sense. Thank you for the info! 👍🏼
This sounds like half marketing BS and half fact.
Who is responsible for confirming their true fate now honestly?
The documents i read, it makes it seem like they want MARSOC to pull double duty, by shaping the battlefield for the fleet MEF (ala force recon 2.0) as well as pick up FID and other missions as needed. i think the USMC is trying to pull control of MARSOC away from SOCOM and not necessarily eliminate it.
Green Berets help set up the Marsoc training program so all those guy can just go to the Army
The pipeline is near identical.
True and Factual, well said...
Yep... write the curriculum & many instructors there, from all over SOCOM
Not when the army suffers cut backs too.
Army has more general today than in WW2, they are way too top heavy, and when they go, so do the rest.
US military is a disaster today anyway. Something will implode soon.
I'm just using my knowing the reasoning behind the history. I don't believe SOCOM ever 'asked' for MARSOC. 2006 SF was at a critical time of manning, two wars were at full steam, and the initial stop-loss was lifted, catapulting many operators into six-figure contracting jobs.
The Marines' 30-year 'no special ops' policy was depriving them of the obscene SOF pot of money.
I think when the Marines said they were going to expand their experimental unit Det-1 into a full force, SOCOM just agreed to funding if they were doing all the work. SF would like to dump their FID mission on someone to pursue more Direct Action anyway.
When the Marsoc debute combat mission didn't go too well, and the value added wasn't appreciated. Sharks began to circle when other more politically established SOF units in SOCOM were licking their lips over that money after the war was over. With SOCOM less willing to hand over money, it throws their expense back in the Marine Corps lapp.
The Raiders do walk around telling conventional Marines to get lost when someone wants to nit pick them. So I believe Marine brass wants to disband MARSOC, give their SOF title and a few extra classes to Force Recon.
Believe it or not, learning the inner workings of recruiting command. During hard times of force manning, the military actually prefers to let the cost of one senior troop go and replace him with ten privates. You might say there is an investment in the experienced guy, but the military sees it as bottom up. The 9 to 1 cost fills their numbers and funding easier than one expensive guy. Business do it too, they rather have many 'revolving door' employee's than carry one guy to retirement and owe him a pension, too. Remember the Marine budget is a subset of the Navy budget. If Marsoc competes with the Seal mission, how many Seal Admerals are there compaired to Marsoc Generals are there?
Before Marsoc, many Marines migrated into other services SOF units. Like they often tell me, "The Marines is a good place to grow up, but you don't want to live there." Nothing against them who tried to be the best they could, I think other SOF units would welcome free talent.
Grunts, even special ones, are cheap to the cost of one aircraft. I think as long as the Marines have had stupid decision makers, all SOF units should have always been poaching Marines. It's hard to beat them into the dirt more than they already have been, but you can sure insentivise them with training. Too easy, it's like poor Marines just standing on the corners holding signs saying, "Will work for ammo!"
I agree... but SF won't dump any mission
Lots of former recon and raiders switch to army after their contract with USMC. Check out Socom Athlete SF National guard event and you’ll see lots of marines in that event .
Yeah. One of the current Medal or honor recipients. Earl Plumlee or so that was on the SocomAthlete podcast, was as prior-marine recon, too
Ya & for decades... because Marines isn't a place conducive for Special Ops... even after Marsoc stood up
Former Ssgt, 0369. I have a theory: knowing Marine Corps higher, on top of the financial issue they don't like the process involved with losing their Marines to MARSOC. They were already losing personnel to Force Recon, then they have to see some of their hard chargers leave the line platoons to go work for SOCOM, which the Marine Corps does not control. As Recon Marines, the Corps is still in charge of them as they are still a Marine Corps asset.
If they get rid of MARSOC that will be one of the biggest fqils in Marine Corps history
And yea i was with 2/6 Golf Co USMC 0311 team leader 2 deployments to Afghanistan
The MARINE CORPS NEED MARSOC
Bro the marine corps needs YOU re enlist
I was in E. Co. 1998-02. Semper Devil.
@odasmith1215 the corps needs you right now
50 yrs ago there was no 1st and 3rd Force Recon Companies, they were completely disbanded when they returned from Vietnam. The Corps will drop whatever they feel they don't need today.
wtf does Marsoc do to help?
Old guy here. I remember when Special Operations Command stood up in the 80s. Big Marine Corps was against special units and the Commandant offered the entire Corps to be part of USSOCOM. Eventually they qualified every deploying MEU as special operations capable. So yea, there was no love lost for a special unit inside the Corps.
I was a contractor on the selection process for MARSOC. CSMs in the Marine Corp don't think anyone is special because everyone in the Marine Corp is special.
Till today recon guys aren’t respected and are only called special operation capable instead of being fully recognized as special operations forces like even Rangers do. But I guess the Marine senior enlisted and officer leadership didn’t fight well enough for that
@@CheyannaTrujilloYes, I didn't want to word it that way, but that's the way it was argued. You can look up Marine Corps Gazette articles at the time and that was the base argument.
Actually it happened way back in the 1960 by order of president JFK. that’s when the entire marine corps was declared as special operations.
@@roypaulcarter4654what?
0321 here. I trained the 1st MARSOC guys. the biggest issue I had was that the original guys all came from 1st and 2nd Force (Mostly 2nd Force) and the current Raiders are not seasoned veterans. When I came into the recon community, I had been a Sgt and had been in for 6 years. I brought my experience as an 0311/0341 to the game and, upon graduating from BRC-3-95, I easily melded into the recon game, becoming the Ops Chief in 2 years. The new guys arrive to the show with no experience. THAT is the issue. I can say that SOCOM is really a pain in the ass. I do prefer the old Force Reconnaissance mission as it serves the Marine Corps missions. The Marine Corps and the Navy DO NOT need Congressional approval to deploy.
Thank you for the heads up on MARSOC.
I always thought it was a bit odd that MARSOC was even created...
It seemed like they were just wanting to be seen as more elite, when the regular marines were already supposed to be elite expeditionary marines, who already had recon guys etc within the unit.
Best to stay focused on their main roles IMO
Their main roles, like winning battles and slaughtering the enemy?
Gtfo
Love your channel and approach-RAH!
When I was in (1972-76), the VN war was ending, 1st and 3rd Force Recon Companies were disbanded. and when I left 3rd MarDiv and got to 2nd Recon Bn, the only remaining Force Recon was 2nd Force. There was no sniper school anywhere, I was S-2 Scout 1/9 and we had no school training on our M-40's while getting ready for Operation Eagle Pull and Frequent Wind in 1973-74.
Things picked up in the 1980's and kept growing as the wars increased. Given time, we'll be at war soon enough and the units will be activated to meet the demand. But in peace time, they don't need you. During my time in, the Corps went from 325,00 to about 180,000. I saw guys given discharges after 18 months of service if they wanted an early out. The draft was 2 yrs of service.
Almost joined 19th SFG after I got out, worked with them and 5th/7th SFG at Ft. Bragg in 1976 at Counter Guerrilla Warfare School. Might have gone active again, they were great guys in SF.
It's always made sense to me to have the Marine Raiders be what the SEALs are in terms of amphibious maritime special operators. Anti-piracy? Marines. UDT? Marines. Etc. That just makes sense to me. Anything ground combat related is for the Marines.
It's the Big Green vs the small footprint battle the military has always had. How many MARSOC generals are there to defend them?
Actually ground combat is for the army
MARSOC was always on the chopping block once the conflicts in Iraq and A-Stan closed shop. There is really no need to have them and it only makes sense to disband them and transfer some of the operators to Army SOF or back into the Corps. They served their purpose and helped bolster SOF during a time where SOF were operating at a high tempo for years. Hopefully, it will be the last time that SOCOM turns to the Marine Corps. They are much better off looking into the Army and selecting a couple of infantry regiments with support elements and converting them into specialized infantry to carry out assault operations against sensitive near pear targets.
I was a scout-sniper back in the '80s. even back then the officers had issues with the "special forces in a special force". and the thing is, without a ghillie suit you couldn't tell us from the rest of the grunts. most officers never learned how to properly deploy scout-snipers, and just looked down on what I considered special skilled Marines. I mean, as an infantry officer you can't use a specially skilled specially equipped Marine? Forward thinking senior officers have always been in short supply.
As far as specialized jobs go, I think the Army is always going to have better options than the Marine Corps, be that in special operations, information operations, foreign area officer, cyber, etc. It sucks because there are a lot of great guys in the Marines waiting for their shot to go do some specialized billet for two years out of their twenty year career. A lot of times they never end up getting their shot anyway.
thats just the nature of the beast. The Army is well the Army, responsible for land warfare, and land warfare only. So it only makes sense that there are more opportunities for land combat jobs than all the other branches.
If what I've heard is correct, the MARSOC push was aggressive and would hard recruit guys who were double stacked. Wings and bubble. so they would essentially get pulled to go do MARSOC stuff even after they were done being highspeed. A hard suggestion. i think this recent war has done ALOT of overlap with units
For Example, the entities doing FID, VSO, Raids, Captures, Direct Action in general etc were. The Combat Arms of the United States Army and Marine Corps Active and National Guard, Navy SEALs, Green Berets, MARSOC, Force Recon.. And whatever 3 letter agency was in the area. it's no surprise the marine corps isn't seeing its use
"If you fail to plan, you plan to fail."🔥🔥🔥
It kinda out lived it’s purpose and they do operate similar green berets. Like the video said some marines leave the Corps for SF group anyway.
You should do a show on who's an operator. I've heard podcasts with the usual unit guys that make the rounds that say an operator is only a delta force operator and that's how they see it. It would be an interesting maybe a little spicy topic.
It really depends on who you ask. Some will say just Delta guys because they've completed the Operator Training Course. The term originally comes from the Code of the Special Forces Operator, referring to GB's. I'd say it's broadly used in the SOF community to differentiate from the Combat Arms roles (Operators) and the supporting staff.
If you are a 'Special Ops' team member. Air Force SOW pilots and crewmen and many unit support roles are in Special Operations command too. But some term must separate specific pipeline qualified team door kickers from the SOF fluff. Delta makes up their own terms anyway and it just happened to apply to all 'team guys' Cops interact using Officers, Feds have Agents, the CIA has Opiratives and the military has friendly reprsentives, 'Operators', who are avalible to come canue your forehead.
@@FlakerFPS...not all combat arms are operators. 1st SFOD-Delta are Operators.
As for special operations units, they are also support units because they solely exist to support the Infantry.
All MOS , including spec.ops., exist to support the Infantry.
Army 1st SFOD-Delta and Special Forces Groups are different because they don't exist to support the Infantry although during war time they sometimes take on that role.
Army Special Forces are not to be confused with military special operations units. Albeit civilians and many POG's seem to be confused on this.
Gents. Read USMC Force Design to understand why these changes are happening. For example, employment of snipers in the littorals isn’t considered effective, so the Scout Sniper program was disbanded.
GTFO, is this for real, or are you trying to get everyone to the document?!?
Force Design (2030) isn’t widely accepted as a smart move.
@@MDR-hn2yz doesn’t matter what we think. It is being implemented anyways. 2 reasons I know this? General Berger is on the board of where I work, and we are doing an assessment to understand how the Corps can still meet 2030 goals despite its poor implementation thus far.
@@eodman89it is open source
We need to ask; who is benefitting from cutting out our MARSOC units?
We had a budget for armor, snipers, and MARSOC to be going at the same time. Now we've lost two of those three so far! Why? And where is that money going?
Going to AI & Signals
If it’s not broke don’t fix it. We need MARSOC. We did just send another 425 million dollars to Ukraine so we can surely keep some of that for MARSOC selection.
We don't need it. SEALs, Rangers and SF exist. Although it would make more sense to get rid of SEALs and have MARSOC be the navy's SOF unit.
@ Well I’d rather have MARSOC than not because China and North Korea have more spec ops than we do so it’s better to have as many as we can than not.
@treystevenson9872 or we can just bolster the numbers of other units that already existed. Number of individual units is a non issue.
@ We could just save money from the Ukraine budget and keep MARSOC.
I went through PMI school and the LT. Col. was saying why I am just a Lt. instead of a. general. I tell them the truth. They ask why are we having accidents concerning weapons? He said,"When all the weapons are locked up all the time how do you think Marines get to know the weapons they use?" I always respect that Marine. Yet, most general are all about telling people what they want to hear to get promoted for power instead of doing their job.
Marine Scout/Snipers, gone? I would have thought they would have been the last of anything to go. What has the world come too.
There still sniper programs in Marine Corps
They now exist in recon units. Instead of sending infantry to the sniper course they are now sending recon marines.
AI, 🤖, 🛰 , etc are the future. Not small arms or Intel spec ops.
I'm not a Marine but I've served with several and those are some outstanding men and women. As to why, who knows for sure. As with many things, it isn't always one thing but they got rid of their tanks, you said they got rid of their scout snipers, and now this talk about the potential for losing MARSOC, I hope they aren't gutting the Corps. I do know one thing for sure, especially when it comes to talks about budgets, a nation nearly 36 trillion in debt is disastrous for our military readiness, regardless of the branch, unit, etc. We have to get our financial house in order to keep the defense in order. Of course as a nation, we do most things (defense included) in the most expensive way possible since we are a rich nation so there is a lot of waste too in the defense sector.
As an Army Aviator I had the honor is supporting the MARSOC initial team selection conducted with the Army SF and USMC at the MCMWTC, great experience working with them in 06-07, later met up with them in OEF 2008
Marsoc were wearing bdu as well and it looked good, idk why they didn't keep that
Because the USMC hates any individuality.
The Corps also did away with the Specialized Search Dog program. Yes, the dogs that search for and identify IEDs, weapons caches etc. And to top it all off they got rid of ALL thier tanks. You read that correctly.
The M1 Abrams was what put the nail in the coffin for USMC tanks, they are too big and heavy for efficient sea borne operations.
The success that the USMC has had with LAVs just cemented the deal.
@@sokyoutdoors588 I was 106 RR mule driver, 2nd Recon and M-60 tanks, have to agree with you.
I think there is some jealousy there from big Marine Corp. Kind of like how big Army was/is with their SOF. But this War that is coming up i think we will need them. Because we have the potential to be fighting another 2 front war.
The Marines always had the special operations skillset. It was just used for Marine Corps operations. Force Recon was subbordinated to the Division Commander, and Battalion Recon was subbordinated to the Battalion/Regiment Commander. So the skillset isn't going away, but what missions they serve is change. They will return to serving Marine Corps missions.
You should interview active marsoc personnel about this
The trouble is by the time it reaches the operator level that decison is a done deal. If your trying to reach the decionmakers who are able to affect policy you gotta talk to atleast the commandant level. CNO or SECNAV this is bottom level of the people who reallg make this decison.
@@808INFantry11Xwill they give you time of day to answer such sensitive questions?
I thought the Commandant and Sergeant Major of the corps just wished all marines a happy birthday, why didn’t they use a similar platform to explain why
I honestly wonder how long until they cut the team guys. They’re discussing it.
Keep Force Recon and Marsoc, move Navy SWCC and EOD to the marines and dump the Seals since Forde Recon and Marsoc do that plus have real infantry training and background
Hear hear
Hell. The Navy doesnt even wanna give money for regular marine Corp much less MARSOC. This shouldnt be a suprise to anyone. Marines are a deadend career path anyways.
True
Dead end? How so?
The problem isn’t the spending it’s the overpaying like the Air Force did with Boeing
Two unrelated subjects
@ I beg to differ
No not going to happen MARSOC is here to stay. The budgets for MARSOC comes from SOCOM not the marine corps. As long as SOCOM wants MARSOC they are not going anywhere. Let’s face it the marine corps is not at the top of the decision making chain on this issue.
SOCOM is not dishing money out the way they used to brother. No war.. They already have a group that does their job and have been for decades before them. Also at the end of the day no one controls the Marines but the Marines.
Vet here. If young men want to be in an infantry/special forces type career, choose the Army over the Marines.
Army has a bigger budget and a less toxic culture.
Best of luck to everyone.
You don’t think all the huge influx of marines coming in will change the army culture to be more marine-like?
@@1anredefinitely not, speaking as a marine who went army. Most marines switched over to get away from the culture cause it’s mostly toxic and ego based
I'm a Army veteran 1990s. Combat Support/MP. I considered re-enlisting USAF CCT or maybe TACP 🛩 . The programs were strict, rigid 1990s. The Air Force pre GWOT, combat was not really fully set into the JSOC, spec ops structure.
@1anre I've served with many former Marines in the Army, in one of my units we joked that we were "Amphibious qualified" because we had so many former Marines in one place. The soldiers, who still "acted like Marines" either left the Army on their own or were forced out.
@@1anre From my experience, all the former marines I worked with in the Army retain their good marine traits and let the dumb crap slide. They embraced army life while retaining the marine discipline.
I worked on this exact question during the QDR in the mid 2010s. QDR is the definitive strategic document that outlines the way ahead for the military- particularly with forces required a base locations. The reason the marines went the MARSOC route originally was funding. The funding at the time was shifting toward SOF because of the war. The marine leadership followed the money trail and created their own program. The marines in general are the poorest branch of the military based on funding. The marines were able to fund other projects and priorities with their MARSOC stand up. They bought all kinds of stuff for regular marines by playing the SOF game. Everyone with half a brain cell could see at the time the game they were playing. The real question is: is there a financial reason to keep MARSOC today that benefits the marines today like it did 15 years ago? Or has that financial incentive changed today. If is no longer a benefit financially then they are gone.
Secondly, they did this previously but not as extreme. Think about the Raiders in WW2. They were disbanded before the war was half over because “every marine is elite.” Always follow the money.
There's so many former Marines in the Army when I was in. Good dudes, and across the board they all had the same story as to why they got out and switched.
The Corps loves to fuck over the grunts bro. No wonder the Corps is bleeding personnel. Why would I even recommend the Corp as a former Marine? Clearly the nonsense of operating on shit budget is old and tired. We needed the budget 10 yrs ago. Guys are going to lat move over to big Army for sure. 100%.
Chesty is rolling over in his grave with this nonsense.
They should go the SEAL route since the Marines falls under the Dept. of the Navy anyway.
That might be what the SEAL community needs, more mature guys in or leading the community and with combat experience reforming the culture
There are SEAL operators that were Marines before. They just had to finish their contract with the Corps first.
Why do we need it? Answer: We don't. We are going to be cutting massive amounts of redundancy across govt just to survive.
its the same as when the Marines get rid of its own Airborne Infantry during the early stages of the Cold War. The Army had the numbers, institutional knowledge, and expertise for Airborne Operations. The Marines having its own Airborne units didn't make sense. The same is true of Special Operations, the Army has had Special Forces units since the 1960s. The USMC didn't stand up its SOF Units until 2006 after a bit of arm twisting. It doesn't make a lot of since for the USMC now that the War on Terror is over.
Yeah I’m gonna be just a little pissed if I pass A&S only to be told to pack up bc the Raider program isn’t a thing anymore.
I mean you would still have to go to itc A&s is just a tryout to go to itc
Never going to happen. Train on. Good luck.
Marine Armor and Scout Snipers are kaput now MARSOC? WTF?
dont forget MPs and nearly all the engineers
I dont understand why MARSOC feel the need to wear multicam when the damn SEALs stole our MARPAT pattern for their uniform. And no a Afghan was ever fooled by MARSOC wearing the old cammie pattern anyway.
Oh...and MARSOC kinda did and do poke their fingers in the eyes of the big Marine Corps. On small fact: many MARSOC think they arent Marines anymore anyway, and tou could see small things that point to that fact. If you look at the MARSOC PT training manual, the first thing that stuck out to me was the terminology they use. Nowhere in my Marine Corps career have i heard ANY Marine refer to our "conditioning hikes" (aka as "going on a "hump") as "rucking". NEVER. But in that MARSOC training manual, that's what they call it. That's straight out of the Army. The "pack" was called a "ruck" (Army term) in that manual, and it was there and then that I knew some in MARSOC started to try to decouple themselves from tthe Corps.
It's because we hate daddy Marine Corps. Marines eat their own and always have. But when we get out we sure miss it
I was in the USAF. Nothing sexy. If you want to do Army stuff then join the Army.
Why didn’t you leave the Airforce too?
@@1anre Back in the day I joined the USAF to learn a trade. I was given a contract in an electronics field and chose Biomedical Equipment Technology. I served just shy of six years and got out to a promising career. Many people in medical and technology fields are former military. I have a relative that chose cyber security in the USAF. Many of his peers served an enlistment and got out to good paying jobs and promising careers. It takes all types though and we have to know who we are and who we are not.
Where are these budget cuts coming from? Because IIRC, The School House was largely funded under 0100 funds, not 1106, which is inherently Navy/Marine Corps Funding. If this is strictly a budget issue, it wouldn't be HQMC's call.
Seems like good advice, Semper Fi
2nd FORCON here...pulled from 1sr...sent to Lejeune...stood up 2nd...stood up MARSOC disbanded 2nd...rolled the worthy into MARSOC and sent the rest packing back to 1st Rcn. or Battalion. Then I was out! Had enough of that BS after 16 yrs! That IMO was the beginning of the end! Whatever happened to us? We gladly jumped at Ranger school, SERE, sniper school, Combatan diver,, HALO, mountain warfare, JTAC, anything and everything we could get into to pump up our networth to the Corps and whatever mission set we were handed ! Today the SUCK is real. It’s all political BS! If I had to do it all over I’d go Army, SF, Ranger and work my ass off and hope and pray for UNIT work!
MARSOC needed to go a a while a go. They were created because we needed increased capacity in the 00's during the height of the GWOT, what they didn't bring was any unique capability that wasn't already being provided by the other major SOCOM elements (Rangers, SF, SEALs, AFSOC). What likely should happen is that there should be an SF battalion of Marines on the West Coast (1st Group) and East Coast (5th Group) with the USMC providing some instructors to SWCS. Alternatively, create and 05 level USMC component in the SEALs on the West and East Coasts.
No overhead for a command above O5 in the USMC nor a separate school base.
Marscoc was shoved down the Corps throat during the sandbox fun since big war needed more “ operators”. Giving up the Scout Sniper program ( caps on purpose) was Huge mistake. The Corps takes care of the Corp. Ask anybody at Tarawa, Chosin, Khe Shanh, or Fallujah.
This has happened since the beginning of special operations in the Marines as well as Army. Conventional Generals cannot check their ego long enough to accept that unconventional units get shit done!
Honestly the Raiders are super legit and all, but if 1 SOCOM entity has to go, it’ll have to be MARSOC simply because their mission set is no different from Special Forces. Rangers, NSW, AFSPECWAR, Recon Marines, and Green Berets and all have individual unique mission sets that they specialize in.
@@ntbroz7315 Recon and Force Recon aren't part of SOCOM.
I am a retired E-7, was with 1st Force Recon 2004 and did the transition into MARSOC Oct 2006. I will tell you big Marine Corps can complain all it wants, MARSOC gets all their funding from USSOCCOM, so they have no say. At the end of the day whatever the Pentagon (SECDEF) says they will get it. In light of the bigger picture globally, things are about to change dramatically, meaning MARSOC will be around for while, so don't sweat it.
If they actually disband the Raiders that would the second time, I guess they really hate Raiders.
Their commanders need to learn from army how they fight to protect their units
Yeah... this was always a likely outcome. If I'm not mistaken, top brass in the Marine Corps was never really behind the formation of MARSOC.
They got rid on the scout sniper - that’s some crazy work somebody needs to run a deep background on who decided that
No war = gotta redefine things for peace time budgets! At least this shit is understandable. The Navy pulled SEAL’s post Vietnam and forced them back into their rates if I recall…with MARSOC being stood up in 2006, I’d lean it getting retired completely!
I say this comment with all the respect in the world...and maybe its my ignorance of being retired AF...but i always wondered why the Marines had a flyboy program...we do have a force that fly's all the time...lol...its called the Air Force...and we have the Navy that fly's...I also could never figure why this was such a hard concept for others to understand...deployments...AF support multiple branches...i dont get why the marines need their own pilots...instead of keeping expensive aircraft/maintenance/crews/training programs and everything else that comes with flying...keep marsoc, sniper school, and those things....just my opinion though😂😂😂
USMC pilots are specifically trained for close in air support, goes back to the first airplanes during the Banana Wars. Same reason those same pilots work on the ground with the infantry units. All the services have provided air support, but we have our own air force for a reason.
You have to look at the Marine Corps design as a whole, by keeping it's assets organic it allows for greater availability and flexibility for the local commanders. A great example of this is the Marine Expeditionary Unit. It has everything it needs for particular missions sets without relying on any outside entities. This has always been the beauty of the Marine Corps and why it is an effective fighting force when unleashed properly.
Funds are a factor. Marsoc was created as a cool working party for socom since GWOT stretched out its SOF forces. Now that the workload is down, makes sense to being those resources back in house. War in the indopacific will be fought at the MEU level or smaller.
I think it’s inevitable that MARSOC and Recon will combine. The Marine Corps simply hates anything that doesn’t conform.
One of my best friends has been a Green Beret for almost 20 years and I asked him about MARSOC....he loves them and said all kinds of great shit about them....but he also said he kinda doesnt know what their purpose is nowadays.....
Everyone here in the comments is talking about budget cuts like we aren't about to start another war in the Middle East. Y'all need to check out Valhalla VFT. We're going to need MARSOC moving forward.
Former Force Recon turned Blackhawk and Apache pilot here. The Marine Corps is making terrible decisions at the Strategic level. The USMC will lose in the long run when good people go elsewhere. Sad.
Scout Snipers aren’t gone they were absorbed by Raiders. The school and skills are still taught, but there are no longer platoons of Snipers. If and I do mean if Raiders go away I have a feeling the scout sniper platoons will come back.
It doesn't seem to me that MARSOC was ever really needed. Other than to attract funding.
They’re essentially facing the same issue 1SFC/USASOC is, lol. All of SOF is getting looked at with the side eye by conventional forces.
MARSOC got kicked out Afghanistan. They should be limited to small operations the US Navy needs and stop trying to play Army in inland conflicts.
It’s because they allegedly murdered civilians.
@@Abefroman-lq3mdyeah and it's total bs
@@Abefroman-lq3mda whole branch scraped because of that? Doesn’t that sound benign to you ?
@@1anre I believe you are using the word “benign” out of context. What’s happening is neither gentle or without harm.
This upsets me a lot! WTH are the Marines doing? Why spend all the money and time on MARSOC?
Beret's, Rangers and Delta.
All Navy needs are Clearance Divers.
All battalions will have their recon elements.
The current Administration is not only hostile towards Special Operations in every branch. But they'd much rather spend that money by giving it to Ukraine, instead of DOD S.O.
Ive heard from random comments by alleged operators in both Force Recon and MARSOC that Force Recon does the same thing anyway, just under SOCOM vs USMC
Marines might get Absorbed into the Navy, combine budgets. Navel Infantry
The Navy actually has infantry and no it’s not the marines. Look it up
The Marine Corps already falls under the Department of the Navy.
@@timsmith5335 Why don't you link a source?
The USMC is naval infantry, their Soldiers of the Sea.
@timsmith5335 ...You mean divers?
I would not be surprised if big Marine Corps takes the axe to MARSOC.
It was the SECDEF, Rumsfeld, that wanted MARSOC, not SOCOM…
STA 2/3 8541 Semper Fi.
Keep it in the corps
Scout Snipers should’ve stayed active within the Marines
It's great the Marine Corps has a place in SOCOM and I hope it stays, but as a former Marine, I know how those old men think. Also, SEALS Green Berets, Combat Controllers, they all have specialties...where does MARSOC fit in? MARSOC was created after I got out...what is their specialty?
The thing is MARSOC operations are completely disaggregated from the larger Marine Corps mission. I imagine the institution will try and find ways to obtain more operational control from JSOC towards a Marine Corps mission. Yeah the Marine corps has divested some capabilities, but don’t foresee it being completely dismantled so soon. Marines join MARSOC rather than aspire to be a recon marine because there’s more of a chance at combat with MARSOC. Recon right now is highly overtrained and overqualified asset and Marines feel like their skills and time are waisted.
As a retired Marine I am all about that mission going away. I've always contended that the USMC should stay with it's origins and just be really good Naval Infantry. Everybody needing to be Spec Ops is just WOT nonsense. Sometimes you just need hard di** MF's that can sling it out on the battlefield with awesome firepower and discipline.
Department of the NAVY that why Marsoc is going away. Also DOD spending acquisitions 2025 All US military forces will obtain OCP pattern and implemented by 2027. There was a defense budget brief on CPAN about it. Wasting money . DOD Just wants one vender
So it’s cause of uniform ?
@@1anre NO Department of the Navy . You have seal teams that MC member can try out for. Why spend more money when you already have s SFU you're already spending money on. Plus MC wants to spend more money on Embassy protections better training and more MC attached to those protection .
@@1anre at 1 point, pre 2008, Obama the DoD and mil had around 11, 1-1 different camo blends, uniforms. In my day there were 3. Just three. 4 if you considered all black. Some how that worked for 20+ years 🤨 ....
🎖️🏆⭐🙏❤️🩹🛐
Thank you for sharing this with
So the Marine corps got rid of tanks artillery and the along law enforcement battalions and sniper units inside of big Marine corps. I'm not sure if that's a good idea or not to become sort of dependent on air supports specifically.
Did you ever stop to consider this could be due to the mismanagement of SOF by the State Department?
Anyone smart doesn't go to the marine corps.
The reason why they went to MARSOC is they were given more funds. So this is kind of misleading.