Thanks guys! I had a similar journey from the Pre-Trib Theory. I was slow to speak it out until after I came across Dr. Michael Brown denouncing it. Then I knew that I wasn't alone, there were actually scholars (which I am not) who were seeing the same things.
I was taught and believed in Rapture my whole life. Then I studied on my own with prayerful guidance from the Holy Spirit, no preacher. I'm still unsure of many things but quite certain that the Rapture is wrong. Throughout scripture God comes to the aide of his people during tribulation not before. After the 40 years of wandering. In the lions den and fiery furnace etc. Thanks for the interview with our favorite scholar!
Pre trib rapture is probably THE easiest thing to disprove. People get upset when you try to show them that isnt true, they have an emotional attachment to it. Its is a very harmful doctrine, it is not some secondary issue. The Holy Spirit wouldnt have included all those details if the only thing you need to know is that Hes coming back. His people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation: (which prove the book is not in chronological order) Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse. Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb. Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present? The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ. He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18. The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15. The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13. He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet? He comes on a horse in chapter 19. He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1. (The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.) There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46. Why does an angel come down from heaven with a key to unlock the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2, if the pit was not already locked? Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner. Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book. The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation". th-cam.com/video/puk7HOeSYRI/w-d-xo.html
Wright has been very good in the past. However, he's very much off track on some important issues today because of his dependence upon John Walton, from Wheaton, who has really lost it on Creation, Adam and a total buy-in to an evolutionary worldview.
Thanks for the slam on the Anglican Church. Sheesh. Why would you, "Pentecostal Pastor" even raise this matter? Stop talking and let the doctor speak. You're obviously in over your head here.
These "scholars" frustrate me, hes right about some stiff but totally off on so much. Dont listen to people just b/c they went to seminary. We WILL know the season of His coming,thats what Scripture says. The reason that all of those predictions were dumb is because they strayed from what Scripture says. Jesus gave us a sure sign to look for- "when you see the abomination of desolation...look up your salvation draws near." Paul also told us that the Day of the Lord wont come UNTIL the falling away comes first and the man of sin is revealed, who sets himself up in the temple of God declaring that he is god. Paul also says that the Day wont overtake us as thief because we know to be watchful...it will come as a thief to those who are not watchful. Also , the Mark of the Beast is absolutely literal based on the context- how can you say its not?? The image of the beast *causes* all to *receive* a mark on the right hand or forehead in which you *cannot buy or sell* without it...how can you not buy or sell with a mark that only God and the angels see? Its awfully specific. And it also says all *who will not get it will be killed* it even says *let he who has wisdom calculate the number of the beast* how can you calculate something that isnt literal?? It is clear and obvious that the mark will be some kind of biometric chip that is implanted(which the technology is already being used) Yes there are spiritual implications but it is also literal, its a physical manifestation. The idea that "the details dont matter" is absolutely NOT true, the beginning of Revelation even says "blessed are those who read aloud the words of this prophecy and blessed are those who KEEP whats in it, for the time is near"
@@zacharycorral1318 youre completely ignoring the details and the context. The abomination of desolation IS the mark of the beast and it has to be physical, as I said it is physical but has deep spiritual implications. Just look at how what Scripture says is already matching up with reality. Klaus Schwab(the main man over at the world economic forum) has already said that their goal is to chip people in the right or forehead with biometric chips and go completely cashless. Like how can people deny whats unfolding right in front of them??
Please don't use the term "schizophrenic" when referring to people. It is offensive to those in the mental health community and is an inaccurate and inappropriate term to describe a behavior.
![Craig Keener: Miracles (Part 1) [Talbot Chapel]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/q9ksgLrPCkg/mqdefault.jpg)
![Craig Keener: Trusting The Signs of the Kingdom [Biola University Chapel]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/72Hf1heiAaQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Great discussion. Thank you
Was raised post-trib, but this helped me understand better my Pre-trib brothers position. Thanks.
Thanks guys! I had a similar journey from the Pre-Trib Theory. I was slow to speak it out until after I came across Dr. Michael Brown denouncing it. Then I knew that I wasn't alone, there were actually scholars (which I am not) who were seeing the same things.
Anyone who studies Scripture seriously to find the true meaning is a scholar, please dont rely on these professors for truth- so many are wrong.
Wow! Thanks for doing this!!!
Fantastic discussion.
Thanks for it.
I was taught and believed in Rapture my whole life.
Then I studied on my own with prayerful guidance from the Holy Spirit, no preacher.
I'm still unsure of many things but quite certain that the Rapture is wrong.
Throughout scripture God comes to the aide of his people during tribulation not before.
After the 40 years of wandering. In the lions den and fiery furnace etc.
Thanks for the interview with our favorite scholar!
Fascinating discussion!
Thanks guys!!
Thanks Men of God
Pre trib rapture is probably THE easiest thing to disprove. People get upset when you try to show them that isnt true, they have an emotional attachment to it. Its is a very harmful doctrine, it is not some secondary issue. The Holy Spirit wouldnt have included all those details if the only thing you need to know is that Hes coming back. His people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation:
(which prove the book is not in chronological order)
Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.
He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.
The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.
The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.
He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?
He comes on a horse in chapter 19.
He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
Why does an angel come down from heaven with a key to unlock the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2, if the pit was not already locked?
Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner.
Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.
The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".
th-cam.com/video/puk7HOeSYRI/w-d-xo.html
N.T. Wright as an exemplar!??
Wright has been very good in the past. However, he's very much off track on some important issues today because of his dependence upon John Walton, from Wheaton, who has really lost it on Creation, Adam and a total buy-in to an evolutionary worldview.
Please watch "The Mark of the Beast" by Pastor CD Brooks
Thanks for the slam on the Anglican Church. Sheesh. Why would you, "Pentecostal Pastor" even raise this matter? Stop talking and let the doctor speak. You're obviously in over your head here.
These "scholars" frustrate me, hes right about some stiff but totally off on so much. Dont listen to people just b/c they went to seminary.
We WILL know the season of His coming,thats what Scripture says. The reason that all of those predictions were dumb is because they strayed from what Scripture says. Jesus gave us a sure sign to look for- "when you see the abomination of desolation...look up your salvation draws near." Paul also told us that the Day of the Lord wont come UNTIL the falling away comes first and the man of sin is revealed, who sets himself up in the temple of God declaring that he is god. Paul also says that the Day wont overtake us as thief because we know to be watchful...it will come as a thief to those who are not watchful.
Also , the Mark of the Beast is absolutely literal based on the context- how can you say its not?? The image of the beast *causes* all to *receive* a mark on the right hand or forehead in which you *cannot buy or sell* without it...how can you not buy or sell with a mark that only God and the angels see? Its awfully specific. And it also says all *who will not get it will be killed* it even says *let he who has wisdom calculate the number of the beast* how can you calculate something that isnt literal?? It is clear and obvious that the mark will be some kind of biometric chip that is implanted(which the technology is already being used) Yes there are spiritual implications but it is also literal, its a physical manifestation.
The idea that "the details dont matter" is absolutely NOT true, the beginning of Revelation even says "blessed are those who read aloud the words of this prophecy and blessed are those who KEEP whats in it, for the time is near"
You think it’s physical? Was the mark on the forehead and hand physical in the Old Testament?
@@zacharycorral1318 youre completely ignoring the details and the context. The abomination of desolation IS the mark of the beast and it has to be physical, as I said it is physical but has deep spiritual implications. Just look at how what Scripture says is already matching up with reality. Klaus Schwab(the main man over at the world economic forum) has already said that their goal is to chip people in the right or forehead with biometric chips and go completely cashless. Like how can people deny whats unfolding right in front of them??
Please don't use the term "schizophrenic" when referring to people. It is offensive to those in the mental health community and is an inaccurate and inappropriate term to describe a behavior.
Offensive...please