I prefer Modelers to Real Amps for Recording - Here's Why
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Modelers let you play the finished, produced sound. It's very inspiring.
WORK FLOW increased, but the WOrK part Decreased using Modellers. Only big studios can have 1000 and up Microphones. I was floored that some of the mics used in Modelling amps and recording can be 3000 to 5000 and up in Price. I am sure Tonejunkie and Worship tutorials have a couple of those pricy mics. too.
i was inspired once: i played a 1967 jtm black flag jtm 50 with the original cab with greenbacks and a 1960 335, but then again some get inspiration from computers
@@yaniv-nos-tubes That is some expensive gear to buy today. Us retired boomers have to watch such spending for sure.
Almost all of the guitar sound we hear are on recordings. Modelers are a mic'ed up, recorded sound we're used to hearing. Run a modeler through a channel strip and it sounds like an album.
Do they?
So, no compression, no after effects, in the mixing and mastering at all?
I was never enamored of the “amp in the room” sound. It was records that inspired me to play, and that’s what I was always chasing. I was so happy when I got my Digitech GSP-21 and could get closer to the kinds of sounds at a gig that I’d been inspired by. I wasted a lot of time for many years messing with amps trying to find the thing I’d read/hear people talk about until I finally realized that what they liked just wasn’t what I liked.
True. 95% of people will never hear your amp in the room sound. They'll hear a very mixed, EQ'd, compressed and saturated version of your tone on records. Guitarists doesn't seem to realize this nor do they care.
100% this!
I recorded using 2 amp mics and a room mic today. It was blended live with a direct stereo feed from 2 Notes Captor X. Also recorded a DI dry (just in case). Took 5 minutes to set up, sounded great and positioning the mics isn’t really hard at all. Sounds awesome. Sometimes I blend real amp dry with modellers and post effects added using the DAW. Modern technology allows us to have an unprecedented amount of flexibility for very little money compared to those who went before us. It really isn’t an “either / or”.
I always record with software modelers. Space, volume, ease of use are all factors. But also, it's great to be able to completely change the tone, the gain, or even the amp model after the fact without having to go through all the hassle of reamping.
One thing that worked for me to get consistent mic placement was to use 4 small strips of black gaffe tape and create a square around the location of the mic. I was using an e609, so I could just drape it over the amp and place it in the square. Easy peasy :)
I’m John Nathan Cordy and I’m here to pump you up!
This past year I saw Joe play in a medium-small theatre venue in Peoria, IL. The venue was much too small for Joe to be blasting a 100w Marshall on stage... but he was doing it anyway. It made for a TERRIBLE mix depending on where you were sitting (and yes... this was the first show I've ever been to where everyone was sitting for the entire show!). 1/2 of the theatre was getting guitar directly from the Marshall and everything else from FOH speakers. On the other side of theatre, you could barely hear guitar. This definitely was one situation where I would have preferred a modeler being used, giving the mix engineer more flexibility.
I take it JOE is Bonamassa?? IF so his shows are very expensive if it sounded badly that would really SUCK. We are not back in the mid 60's. Before they started having monitors, and Sound Engineers. NO Wonder places are starting to want Silent Stages across the board. I am really surprised we have not seen an Artist like Eric Johnson embrace, getting rid of his huge rig, but he has at least scaled back.
I think the “amp in the room sound” is a personal preference if at all and the audience probably don’t get that at all. The top modellers now are so good that in the recording they probably are at least equal and probably in a live situation too at least from the audiences point of view. Also a lot of younger guitarists have most likely never played a valve amp like a Vox or full on Marshall stack so they will be more familiar with what a modeller sounds like…..times if they haven’t already are a changing…..
Reamping changed my workflow and ability to mic cabs the most. I record the di and use plugins to monitor myself and then just reamp when the song is done. Something like a gravity ms cab to keep the mics on the cab and you’re golden.
Might be harder to dial in the amp properly for edge of breakup stuff, because your playing kinda depends on the sound you get, but for high gain stuff this really works well for me.
Same here...love my amps,and never getting rid of them but ya for recording modeling works, works well and fast...
But there are intermediate options, such as Two-note Torpedo-Embedded amplifiers like the Revv d20, Victory V4, Laney L5 Studio, and even the new Soldano Astro 20. What do you think about these options?
John has done some videos in the past using a Two notes capture/load box, so he is familiar with that as well. He is a modelling Master.
@@ksharpe10 Thanks, I'll watch those videos. Anyway, I am referring to those tube amplifiers that already include the Two-note Torpedo embedded in them, like the examples I proposed.
@@ksharpe10 I mean a tube amp head with Two Notes Torpedo IR cabinet load box embedded.
@@DavidWapner Ahh Got Cha, hopefully John will see your Post on this very item. That is something myself has not done. I think they call it IR Loading, but I could be wrong.
@@ksharpe10 Oh, thank you very much, I would love that, an analysis from John on this would be very interesting: yes, I think it is IR loading and I would like to know the differences in the homestudio context between a modeler and, for example, a Revv d20 / g20, or a Victory v4 (the latter is a hybrid, with an all tube preamp section).
Hair cut looks great bro! Fantastic content, per usual 🔥
Mic stand/holder that clips onto the amp will give you the same placement every time and get leads off the floor. It also moves with the amp.
Can’t argue with solid results of guitarists recording with modelers/ sims.
But IMO recording with a good tube amp still wins.
Check out Johan Segeborn’s channel. Amazing results often with very inexpensive amps.
Johan has several videos about his technique including how to capture room sound.
To me it’s fairly simple. We ( most of us) have the amps, and the mics and interfaces have gotten remarkably good even at the entry level price point.
I’ve got a number of valve amps and I’ve got a pretty damn good pedal board set up with a Walrus ACS1 at the end of it if need be. I was going into a Blackstar Studio 10 EL34 and getting great sounds but lately I started using my Helix into a Powercab 1 12. At first I struggled to find a live sound I was happy with but persevered . Now I can honestly say that the Helix is at least equal from my point of view just a little different in a live situation but not in a bad way. And of course far more versatile…..Each solution has its merits at this point though,,,,,
After hearing helix,axefx modelers through a good power amp and cab...i think i just prefer modelers in general
I can’t get used to modellers when recording. For me, what works best is recording through my amp, my cab is in a sound proof box. I have two mics inside it. I adjust my amp to what sounds good for the moment and reamp it as / if needed.
Interesting! What's the brand of the box if you don't mind Rafael?
@@johnnathancordy , I don’t use a DI box. I use either my POD Go to record the DI signal (channel 3) via USB and bypass the FX to send the signal to my AMP or I use the DI port on my amp (Laney Ironheart Studio).
The way I have my stuff setup, it basically sounds polished as is. I get told that all the time by people who are playing with me live as well. Whatever you need to be inspired!! To be fair, my amp has recording out with an EQ applied or direct w no EQ for IRs. The built in Recording device sounds great, so I just use that. Has individdual volume to control input and everything, love it. My amp head is a Rivera Clubster Royale Recording 25w. Killer!
The only thing I miss with modelers and IE is a nice feedback every now and then . All other cases work perfectly fine for me. You always have a consistent tone and on the other hand a ton of options - if needed.
Have you tried the new Helix feedbacker effect?
No, I use an FM9 but thx for the hint@@r0bophonic
I have a great tube amp and I would love to use it for recording at home but simply I cannot for a few reasons:
1. Amp to sound right needs to be cranked to a certain level to get this power amp tube distortion. Attenuators don't allow to push speaker to the appropriate level to get great sound so personally I don't see it as a solution, unless somebody plays clean guitars or slightly overdriven amp on the edge of break.
2. Setting up amp and mic it can take hours, people like me have day jobs so doing this later afternoon and evenings is hard or impossible. Also, in my case if I setup an amp and mic, I cannot have it setup for days, after recording I have to clean the space and next day to setup again. I may not be able to setup and obtain the same sound, the hours for setup and tear it down and setup again are wasted.
MY SOLUTION: modeler, in my case Fractal FM9 connected to DAW via USB (I love this).
1. I learned from TH-cam channel of Brett Kingman that Fractal takes analog pedals very well so I can use my favorite overdrive pedals. In Fractal the clean JTM45 is perfect for that purpose.
2. I have also great tube preamp, ADA MP-1. I learned from Leon Todd how to use it with Fractal. He created a preset that does not have an amp. Instead he used one of fractal "amps" the tube preamp as a power amp with speaker cap emulation and effects. ADA MP-1 takes role as preamp because it is a preamp. I highly recommend this, just search Leon Todd's TH-cam channel where he shows how to do it. There are a few important details so please find his video and re-create this preset and save it in your Fractal. It is really worth it!
3. Fractal sounds just great stand alone, amp models sound really good, and the effects are studio quality so it allows to save so much time and recreate the same sound each time. It is great for recording but also for songwriting, recording scratch ideas and demos, and to daily practice routines.
Leon Todd created his video a few years ago, I wonder if this would change much today after so many firmware upgrades.
It's funny, because it's almost impossible to get the sound from amps that you can get from modelers. If you have a ton of amps, mics, mic pres, etc. AND great engineers who understand what you're trying to get, then maybe you can get it. But it's costly and takes a lot of time.
I've worked in studios as an engineer (Fame, Muscle Shoals Sound, lots in Nashville) and with enough time and energy (and money) you can get it, but almost nobody has that. It just doesn't make sense from a time/energy/money standpoint.
especially in Nashville, nobody gives you the time to get the tone right, they want it right now.
I'll give you an instance where it's not so easy. The engineer doesn't put a SM57 and even when requested won't do it, then there's a hum coming out of the amp due to electrical issues and all of a sudden you can't use your single coils and your gain pedals......it can be dicey with an amp, it's not always that easy.
@encyclopractica
Agree. When playing for fun at home or live, I prefer the real amp and cab, because I just like the feel. But when recording, the modelers give me more control without having to fuss over the mic levels.
Thanks for the video. I have a question, I am using the Neural dsp Mesa Boogie mark II plugin to record but I have noticed that if I have more than 2 tracks with that plugin I started to have lag and breaks in the playing while recording, so it seems these plugins consumes a lot of memory. Did you ever faced that kind of issue?
Thanks
I haven’t miced up an amp for years. Too much hassle and I honestly think I get better results going straight into my audio interface. I was using the record out from my Katana. Now I use either my HX Stomp (usually not via its USB but want to work on that) or Helix Native. I do sometimes run my pedal board through a Cab M+ too, but less so since I got the Stomp.
One big down side to micing an amp is external noise. I live in rural France and often have tractors going past. Not good if you’ve just nailed a great take and on playback here a rumbling piece of farm machinery trundling past!
So many good plugins now. Spoilt for choice. Tone X, Neural, Guitar Rig 7 etc. Showing my age, but I remember having a terrible cheap dynamic mic from Maplins and recording my JCM800 into a Fostex X15 4 track cassette. I lived in a flat on Tyneside and was not popular with neighbours!
I have the Dream 65 and Lion now, I don't think I will Mic up an amp again! I will even use the reverb from the Dream 65 as it sounds sooo good! But, I will have to have at least a 1x12 onstage!
I am 100% unable to use a “real” amp given my life situation. I just sold my tube amp and bought a better guitar with the proceeds and I couldn’t be happier. Cheers
Most music consumers won't know if it's a real amp or not in a mix. I would hear the same answers from guitar players who has never used amp sims before. They would say that using amp sims are fake, like the whole amp in the room kind of thing, and a bunch of other things. While yes, it may not be the real thing, but it's close to the real thing and being able to hear what's going on compared to blasting an amp and cab in the same room as your computer is in. On an audio engineer side of things, I like having both. I can record DIs with an amp sim and then re-amp through an actual amp afterwards because I want to focus on performance. When you A/B real amps and modelers, most of the time, you can't beat the real amp. But would your average music listener know the difference? Most audio engineers work in a home studio nowadays, so you may either live alone but don't want to bother the neighbors. You may live with your partner, have a family, and all of that stuff, but not try to bother them while you're working. Amp sims, or even having a load box and quality IRs, is the best solution for home recording and/or mixing. For live, I prefer actual amps unless the band really knows how to dial their tone in on the modelers and want to run their settings via MIDI so they can focus on the performance on stage. Modeler tones that you recorded for your album may not translate well in a live setting, so it's always good to do sound check to make sure it's actually the sound you want.
Hi, just bought your Fractal presets. Which one is close to what you use in this video? I like the sound!
Sometimes i like that i dont know what i dont know when it comes to the Modelers vs Real Amps discussion.
3 years ago a work buddy gave me a Fender Frontman 15G amp that he wasnt using. Before that, i was using a cheap amp that came with a cheap guitar i got from Amazon. The difference wasnt that huge to my ears, even though i assume the Fender amp is better because duh, it's a Fender, right?
I feel the same way with my Helix/PowerCab 212 combo (aside from the obvious differences like drive/distortion with each amp), and im totally fine with that. I'm just happy to play guitar and have the ability to change things sonically with the effects provided in the Helix. I honestly didnt know i was getting much more than just a multi-EFX unit when i bought it.
I’m from the same generation as Satriani. For half of my time playing guitar, I only used real amps because I had no choice. I had to deal with the constant wrestling match that automatically comes with real amps. Mics vs rooms/halls/venues vs electricity vs the tone that I really wanted. Sure running two 4x12 cabs with a fully cranked JCM 800 is both a sonic AND physical experience. But…with a high quality modeler, not having to fight everything is an infinitely superior experience.
I'm just here waiting for the random fact drop
Why not use a metronome with a flashing light, to avoid the audio bleed?
For recording I’ve started using my line 6 helix rack 4cm with my amp. Then usb from the helix to the computer, where I capture the direct unprocessed guitar sound. Then I reamp and add irs from there. I prefer playing with a real amp/cab in the room, so this seems to work for my preferences. Also with the usb to computer there’s no noticeable noise floor (and no audible latency to deal with). So far so good anyway. 🙂👍🏻 0:50
I don't know why, but can't seem to get a warm clean tone either with a modeller or plugin, only with an amp.
Neural DSP's Cory Wong and Nolly plugins are very good for cleans. I use them for every type of guitar including pedal steel. Plini and Abasi have some other clean tones. Scuffham Amps has some good ones as well.
Otherwise I agree. Cleans are tough to find outside a real amp.
Yes
As someone who has mostly used modelers and plugins for recording, I kind of have the opposite opinion of this. Most of everything that I've listened to growing up has been recorded with real amps and done with hybrid recording systems.
After using a plug-in versus micing up my friends 6505 playing through a 2x12 cam, I got to say I prefer the real thing.
The many impracticalities of guitar Amps, good Monitor and Stereo Speakers came to an end when I compared them to the sound of good Headphones. Audio Fidelity and experience is much better in good Headphones (i.e. not earbuds) in my opinion. A good test is to put on a Movie with an outstanding sound track. Then listen going back and forth between Stereo Speakers and Headphones. The difference is obvious.
The closer the speakers are to my ears, the better I hear, and the higher the fidelity at the same volume. That provides me with the most enjoyable listening experience, and consequently personal playing experience. I don't want to hear what the room sounds like.
For some of us modellers are a great way to get saturated sound at low volume to avoid aggravating tinnitus. Also why one or the other? Use a blended rig.
Quad cortex or TONEX for recording and kemper with Kones monitoring for live.
most people have no idea about guitar amps and customising them to their needs using better speakers vintage tubes modes if needed. it's much easier to use presets somebody already made for you...and everyone else...you get the device then you have to go through countless presets then you find a few that you can work with then you find out that all the other guitar players are using the same presets and sound the same.
The other day, I sat down to record an electric guitar part. Mind you, I haven’t recorded in years… had a 4 track cassette multitrack and then an 8 track multitrack in the late 90’s. Anyways… I record the part and discover the waveform looks like a sausage… and the track sounds like 💩. I mic’d the amp with a nice Rode condenser but aiming a *side address* mic isn’t like aiming an SM57. …and I’m getting tired and my fingers hurt.
So anyways, today I bought a NUX MG 30 in hopes that it’ll sound as good as Ive heard (from you and others) on TH-cam. In 1993 I bought a Digitech RP-1 and it sounded like absolute 💩 going direct without an external speaker of some sort…and that early experience with effects units tainted my desire to try anything *direct* in…. But now with the revolution of *Impulse Response’s*, I’m willing to try again. The technology may finally be ready. …and this coming from someone who’s been adamant about mic’ing cabs.
Try an hx stomp XL before you give up on modelers. I tried cheap and expensive stuff and ended up settling on this unit, and am very happy. I enjoy programming it and trying different amps and pedals. I have a bunch of great sounds for live and studio projects.
I love songs like the 1975 somebody else 😊😊🌞🌟🎸🏴🏴🏴⭐⭐🎸🏴🏴
I’ve released at least 10 albums without real amps. I much prefer a modeler and I grew up in a time in the 90’s recording to tape. I doubt I’ll ever buy another tube amp. I use plugins, Helix or the Tc Electronic Jim’s 45.
What does your shirt say John?
If daddy loves me, why is he always practicing legato? You can just make it out at 2:10
A good midway point is to play your real amp with a loadbox and IR, best of both worlds
Haha one minute after i comment he mentions it
HX stomp XL for live, and Helix Native for studio. Game Over.
I'm guessing my first post was deleted - YT doesn't like links or things that look like links! Speaking of links... John - I'm getting 404's for your coursework links.
What’s up with your content dude ? You’re all over the place ! Amp verses Modelers yada yada yada 😂
We’re a psychologically fickle bunch.
Compliments to the barber. Looking spiffing!
What happened with the “Ollie” project???
Yeah, but I don't buy this ( mic's are not ears) argument, because surely people hear the final recording with their ears... not a microphone?
It's useless for anyone to argue for "real" amp in the room tones unless they have a chain of long things handled, namely excellent mic technique, great mics for the cabs, an extremely well treated room, proven engineering experience for processing guitars, and solid editing skills. That is almost zero percent of all guitar players. And even after all that you will still sound like you used a modeler. So... just get on with it already!
Well sure. Most guitarists have no idea what they're doing in regard to engineering and I wouldn't expect them to. They can barely manage their instrument.
Wait, I thought you just decided to go back to amps? 😂
In a recording you simply cannot tell the difference.....
Nobody uses amps for recording anymore because it just doesn't make sense at all. You waste several hours miking an amp to get "the" tone, but much better ones are already instantly available in the modeler. Only the big names such as David Gilmour, Satriani, Allan Holdsworth and etc may still prefer miking a real amp instead of using a modeler, considering the gear and engineers at their disposal. Other than that, miking an amp is just a forgotten art.
Unfortunately Holdsworth is no longer playing music and Satriani used plugins on his last album.
Of course people still use amps for recording 😅
Nobody uses real amps for recording? Man guitarists are living in their own world. Wild times.
Wear proper headphones, you won't get a click. Asinine.
This guy is neurotic about gear and if you listen to his spiel, you will be too. Just wait for his upcoming video about why recording with amps is amazing.