Yes! The HGC helped me calculate how many mana dorks I needed for a smooth casting of my Umori companion decks, how many creatures vs auras in my Mazzy deck, etc.
This is really solid advice instead of an attempt to offer a one size fits all solution that will inevitably fail many. I also really appreciate you acknowledging that players experience diverse play patterns that differ from those within your "bubble." I respect a person who learns and grows from past oversights. I do have a few general rules that I would add to your template example, but I understand that there are benefits to keeping things simple for general audiences especially since it's only included so you can articulate the importance of varying from it based on each deck's individual needs. That said, I recommend running 4-5 boardwipes. When deployed correctly, even symmetrical ones can act as another form of card advantage. I also run a minimum of 5 counterspells that cost 1 mana or less in every deck that has access to blue. Obviously, the ability to remove any card from the stack provides unrivaled coverage, but even in aggressive decks, the option to prevent a boardwipe, protect your commander, or ensure that your win con isn't stopped is invaluable. Lastly, I want to thank you. Your content has inspired me to relaunch my channel. I'm not sure yet whether I'll do so under the old banner or just start from scratch, but listening to your content gets me pumped about getting back into the TH-cam game. ✌️
@IMTSin well, that depends on a number of factors. 1.) I, like Trinket Mage, am a high-powered casual enthusiast. Very few decks at that power level win by turning creatures sideways. 2.) Doing so only makes protection spells like Teferi's Protection, Fierce Guardianship (when played as the creators intended), and Tamayo's Safekeeping more powerful leading to some explosive plays. 3.) Doing do also bypasses many popular forms of protection like Ward, Lightning Greaves, Swiftfoot Boots, etc., which can be especially frustrating to play against when applied to hatebears like Drannith Magistrate or commanders that win the game if a player is allowed to untap with them in play. In the environments I prefer to play running 4 boardwipes should be the minimum expectation if not more in dedicated control decks or less in decks racing to assemble a combo. For example, my Atraxa superfriends deck runs approximately 12, my Breya deck of many combos might only run one, and my Mageta and his Indestructible friends deck is built to wipe the board at least once per turn cycle for the entire game.
@@IMTSin It doesn't have to. As the second comment explains, there are dozens of reasons to play X or Y boardwipes. Depending on your deck, depending on the power level, etc.... Now, if you play 4 or 5 but 3 of those 4 are asymmetric, and you're left with a full table, it's not a bad experience for your opponents because you'll probably kill one or two that same turn. So the game ends “fast” or suddenly and you can play the next one. People have to learn that interaction exists and not everyone wants to play in the brave new world where there are no boardwipes. You have to learn to live with it.
@@majinvegeta6364 I would say that the advice you gave only applies for those wanting to play high power EDH. if you show up to a normal game of EDH running low cost counter spells and 4 board wipes, then it’s likely not the same style of game that others wanted to have. I just disagree that those ideas should be used as a template. 1-2 board wipes and 4-5 counter spells is pretty normal. Unless your deck is mono-blue, you’ll likely use other forms of removal as well. If everyone runs a bunch of board wipes and a bunch of counterspells then you have 4 people running some level of control style, which isn’t in line with low-mid power EDH. My friend group plays mostly mid power EDH, and I’ve played lots of high power EDH before, I can’t use the deck building strategies I use for high power EDH in mid power, as it often leads to a very one sided game.
I run Kutzil and the reason i don't have those 1-drop mana dorks is that they don't get me white quickly enough. avacyn's pilgrim is obviously in the deck
Someone asked me what I think of the card because that commenter and their friends love it. So it was a shoutout to that player! I don’t think they struggled against the card
My thinking on land counts and mana rocks has changed in the last couple years for a couple reasons; -MDFCs enabling higher land counts while also being spells -Cheap (2 MV) value engines like Ledger Shredder, Faerie Mastermind, Pollywog Prodigy, Ripples of Undeath, etc etc Sam Black and others have really broken these ideas down with more detail and math, but basically I tend to be on 39-41 ish land in most decks now, with maybe 5-7 of those being MDFC. If my commander costs 4 or more I'm on mana rocks, but otherwise I'm jamming as much cheap card draw as possible, plus more land, rather than rocks. Maybe it's just my preference or that I play a lot of blue but it's hard to argue that playing a Ledger Shredder, Faerie Mastermind, Pollywog Prodigy, Sylvan Library and the like is not better than a mana rock. You can set up your board, draw valuable cards, and simply naturally hit every land drop with sources (land) that don't get hit by farewell or vandal blast or what have you. Of course, the green land ramp is unimpeachable and mana dorks can be good. It does depend on decks, but I still think broadly that most casual commander players are running both too land light and too mana rock dependant, and not utilizing MDFCs as much as they could be. Excuse the long comment, love your videos and the podcast!
Cards are so efficient that it boggles my mind when people decide they want some percentage of games where they don't play Magic. Maybe a decade ago you needed every slot to maximize your Avenger + Craterhoof victory but these days most of the cards in your deck snowball advantage for no effort - you just need to cast them.
I think there's a lot of hand-wringing over early ramp in the format, but what is often overlooked is the powerful ramp effects that sit around the 4-5 mana range that can accelerate you through the midgame. Yes, play a healthy amount of ramp pieces in the 1-2 mana slot if it fits your deck, but also try experimenting with cards like Turnabout, Grim Hireling, Leyline Immersion, Bear Umbra, High Tide, and Jaheira-style effects. I have some decks that do the typical "ramp on two, commander on three", but I also have a few that stick a low-cost commander or value piece early, appear on par or slightly behind on mana, then catapult ahead in the midgame with these effects. I like it a lot tbh
yeah, 4-5 mana ramp is often looked down upon because it's really bad in faster 60-card formats that are better off playing 1-3 mana ramp if they ramp at all; In commander you're generally going to have more time (and hopefully other ramp pieces to accelerate 5-spells on earlier turns) where the resource advantage will help you greatly, and you have build-in flood protection in the form of your commander
Like you said, I think its going to depend on the type of deck you are running. What you play when will determine what kind of ramp you need. My oji exquisite blade deck for example needs a lot of 2 mana ramp so I can cast oji on turn three, then use it in conjunction with another 2 or 3 drop on consecutive turns to get triggers. A more aggressive deck like my Arabella Abandoned doll can't afford to be ramping on turn 1 or 2 though. The deck has no late game, and if I'm not threatening to win turn 6 or 7 ive already lost. Every turn matters and putting 1 or 2 1/1s into play could add up to over a quarter of my opponents life totals in following turns, while also providing utility like protecting or hasting my commander. The place for big ramp is grindy midrange decks like my ghalta and mavren list. The commander easily wins the game themselves but they, and the rest of the deck in general, cost a lot of mana, but it often gets wrathed and removed. More mana is necessary to rebuild quickly and the deck commonly finds itself with 20+ Lands in play by the end of the game.
Videos like this are always helpful. It's probably the 'tism or something but I usually struggle with deckbuilding when getting in to new formats unless I have a "deck skeleton" to get started with
Everyone learns differently. The important thing is that you find what works for you and never give up. It's a process, and we are all growing as players. Whether we started last week or three decades ago, we're all walking this road together together. ✌️
I just changed my mono green Voltron deck to the new Shroofus from jumpstarts. Now that my commander is 3 cost the most important change I made is replacing all my two and three mana ramp into one mana ramp. The scenario you described is exactly what happens. Turn 3 I’m swinging with a buffed mushroom at whoever chose to spend their first two turns ramping. I added all the umbra armors, for some additional protection, and boom. A deck that will really teach the table the importance of removal.
I agree that local meta is often the biggest factor. After playing life I started running a lot more of restoration effects (getting back from grave), since I noticed I had issues rebuilding after wipes, unlike other players.
Holy shit, Kutzil mentioned. For her i ran into the problem that i could never have enough mana dorks to consistently ramp her on 2. But would i could have is have a 2 drop that has some buffed atk to then on 3 bring out kutzil, swing the 2 drop and draw that way. Having a draw more to find the 2 drop + the amount of them that has buffed atk is quite high.
That's how my friend runs it. The deck draws a ton of cards so the best ramp in this deck is "play an extra land" stuff, especially on a creature which can have some kind of buff applied.
I started making every single deck with 40 lands. I tend to make janky theme decks that I always feel like I know exactly how many lands it needs, but I don't. Ever since I defaulted to 40 I've had major success testing and seeing what I might need or if I can afford to take out a land or two. In fact most of them have stayed at 40 since I don't usually run a lot of ramp to begin with. Lol
7:56 I don't really agree that Mina is a 4 mana ramp spell. She's dependent on ramping only if you have additional lands in hand. A true 4 mana ramp spell will always search for a land/lands.
Having run my Prosper deck since release, retooling it as viable support pieces have come & gone, the constant detail of being card draw and ramp (temporary in both cases) in the command zone has ensured its always the strongest deck in my portfolio.
Man 2 board wipes definitely seems low for me, I usually start with like 5. Also average CMC should’ve probably been added to the template honestly, I’ve found if I’m playing over like 3.3 average cmc my games can be very clunky and I feel behind all too often, personally I stick to like 2.8-3.1
Thanks so much this was an amazing video, I am heading straight to the kitchen to take a deeper look into my decks and take notes to make the best of what I have , let me cook
Thinking about what you want to do on turn 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 is so crucial. I think a lot of players like the templates because it takes a super complex, involved process and reduces it down to a checklist. To be fair, a deck built within the parameters of [insert popular template here] is going to be like 70% of the way there if the choices made within that are sensible goodstuff that work within a coherent gameplan. A template is genuinely a better deckbuilder than most casual or new players. But that lack of specificity only works within the context of the sort of generic value engine commanders that were printed in the last few years or commanders with linear game-plans - and these decks are often very commander-centric. Goldfishing a deck with a gameplan that isn't summed up by the commander's textbox is much, much harder. Hitting your 20 pieces of generic "interaction" works fine when you're looking to stick a two-color 3 drop that says "when you do x, do y. When enough y happens, z happens" and take over the game with it. Ironically this is the type of commander that goldfishes really easily and really well. No shade to those using templates because frankly, they tend to produce decks that do things every game, but the things they do tend to be the same sort of steady curve approaching critical mass when uninterrupted.
The lucky number is 15. Having 15 of a card means that the average number in your opening hand is 1 and you have roughly a one in seven chances of drawing it. This is why if you really want something, you go to 30. Removal and ramp are more of a case by case basis. I usually recommend at least 8 for most midrange decks with at least 2 dealing with wide boards, artifacts/enchantments, and 4 dealing with creatures. For ramp and land counts, I use Frank Karstens' theory adjusted for the mana curve. I have an Ardenn and Rograkh deck that has 40 lands and a sol ring with an average mana value of exactly 2. I never screw and it does not matter if I flood due to my card draw.
I have a hard time goldfishing with interaction in my hand, like do I cast a creature or do i keep mana up for a instant spell. Do you have any advice for that?
You could consider to keep the removal in hand until the turn that your playgroup its usually setting the last piece of their engines or going for a early win
That's why I quit goldfishing years ago. What my decks need are stress tests to make sure they have adequate coverage and can rebuild from set backs, not simply waltz to the finishline unchallenged.
Great video. It can be intimidating making 'the perfect deck's but that doesn't exist and shouldn't but it is still important to build in a way that makes your deck viable at any table. and that can be done at any price point. I literally proxy all expensive cards I need and nobody cares cuz it's commander
Currently I'm making a Grazilaxx, Illithid Scholar deck and it runs almost no mana rocks and only like 30-ish lands. My turns 1 and 2 are playing one mana unblockable and turn 3 is playing graz. After this point I'm drawing 4 cards a turn and i don't miss land drops.
Tuning, tweaking, and goldfishing a deck is advice for folks that play more than 2 games every two months. For we irregular players, a formulaic method to deckbuilding works. I enjoy your videos, though, as they're always well thought out.
I think most people actually do realize that the guides are meant to be a reference, and nothing more. It takes time and research to get an understanding as to how to build a commander deck.
There's just never enough space for all the cool stuff I wanna cram into my decks, I always end up with humongous piles of cards and cutting stuff down takes ages...
I would modify basic template a bit 12 removal total is a good amount, but 10 spot / 2 whipes is a bad split IMO Those who would benefit from such a template are usually less experienced, and their decks will be less powerful then others at the table. I would suggest just put a bit more whipes and a bit less spot removal, it tends to work better
I never use board wipes. If I get taken out, then that is what will happen. Unless the power level difference is too great, I really don't mind others popping off and running with the victory.
Same here. I might run 1 but I’d rather just go next game and try again rather than stop the game and have everyone slowly rebuild again. I don’t like 2 hour long games anymore and 9 times out of 10 when I have a board wipe I choose not to play it because I don’t want to extend the game
@@yoyoguy1st They do just draw stuff out for sure, but my main reason is that I just don't find them fun. They are much less "needed" if the decks are close to each other in power level.
With my luck, I always run at least 37 lands, 14 ramp, and 14 card draw. It's excessive, I know. But even with those numbers, I still manage to find 3 land opening hands that leave me mana screwed. But, to be fair, I do play a lot of bug stompy green. 😅
Do you have any videos on building more resilient decks, or know of any? I sometimes find myself falling behind when I don’t find my card draw pieces, even though I have plenty in the deck. And when I do find it having it get picked off shuts me down.
If we cant find an ideal number of x cards, can there be an ideal percentage to find from a hypergeometric calculator? Like maybe "You need X% to make it a viable number" or at least a tange of them? Is it an interesting thing to think about or is it the 2 am hitting me?
I have been thinking about the curve-out situation a lot for my Rhonas deck. I really wanna go 1 mana ramp on turn 1, Rhonas turn 2, 4-attack-creature turn 3. But the number of 1 mana ramp spells is limited unless you want to throw out money for delighted halfling, or Birds in a mono-green deck. And mulliganing aggressively for the ramp is a bad idea because that has a higher chance of leading to no followup 4-attack-creature on turn 3. So my main question there is, how much other ramp should the deck even have, and what other stuff should I put in the deck to play on turn 1 or 2 for when I do not draw a 1 mana ramp card? Quite a conundrum...
I did a quick count of 1 mana ramp and there are 18 budget options. Obviously you won't run all of them, but 12 will give you a ~85% chance to have one with the free mull. Idk how many 4 attack creatures you would want but 20 gives you 90% chance to find one by turn 3 (no mulligan). Remeber that with the free mull and london mulligan it is almost always worth to mull to a better starting hand.
@@asiniel23216 Ok lets see... There's really only the following options: Llanowar Elves, Elvish Mystic, Fyndhorn Elves, Arbor Elf, Wild Growth, Utopia Sprawl, Boreal Druid (not that cheap anymore), Birds of Paradise (also not cheap), Delighted Halfling (definitely not cheap), and Sol Ring. So that is 7, with around 3 other options that get increasingly more expensive. All other cards I could find that cost 1 mana and would provide immediate extra mana on turn 2 and 3 either rely on further requirements (like Springleaf Drum) or are outside of the monogreen color identity (like Avacyn's Pilgrim). Which specific cards am I missing that you had in mind?
From your videos i think i know you don't really like commanders like jodah because he falls into the same category like the ur dragon. But how many creatures would you run in a jodah deck? I want to pack more removal but i think the only thing i can cut are creatures. I'm at 36 creatures right now. Any suggestions?
I'm going to assume you're talking about Jodah, the Unifier. Depending on how quickly you get Jodah and what the other creatures are doing, then you can cut up to 10. You can also swap those creatures for creatures that also work as removal.
Ah, that explains why my deck hasn’t been running very smoothly. I’ve got too many cantrips and not enough card draw engines. The only problem is that my deck is really jank and relies on a lot of unrelated things to function, topdeck manipulation being one of them. Like, I like to think I’m good at finding cards to include in my decks. But I’m sort of at a loss as to what sorts of things an Esper Manifest-Morph-Equipment-Counters deck needs to function smoothly outside of the mandatory pieces which already cover a majority of the deck. I was pretty proud of the mana base for a bit, but I think I added too many Evolving Wilds variants to it, and now I’m swamped in taplands. I even dropped most of the black cards because I was having trouble getting more than one black source in a game.
I do have a decklist online, and I did make a bunch of changes last night. Yes, it was the cantrips that were the issue. Fixed up the mana base a tiny bit and added some actual card draw engines and it started running much more smoothly. Still super jank, obviously, but I was able to keep myself in the game and remove stuff when it mattered. The themes do overlap more than you’d think… I didn’t mention it was an Arna Kennerüd deck. She ties the whole thing together.
My only question becomes what if I want to play my commander off curve? Do I artificially treat my commander as having a larger cost? Doing this leaves mana up to protect it for a turn cycle
I know this isn’t a clean answer but it depends. Why do you want it off curve. Is it to also hold up a counterspell or is it because you need something in play earlier. I’d look to the iron man example if my goal was to get a 6 drop in play then I might play my commander off curve and build around getting the 5 drop in play before my commander. I hope that helps
@@thetrinketmage In my case i noticed that my Commander get removed too often, so i kinda decided to play it at 6 mana instead of 6 so i have some protection in hand and there are more things in play to target instead of it, but now i wonder if i should just consider it like a 6 mana commander
But what if I play my commander on curve and then someone randomly nukes it? I always get confused about the "casting on curve" topic because what even is your curve based on your opponents' situation? If everyone taps out and plays perfectly on curve, then you're probably okay... but the amount of times someone hasn't had a good opening hand and just says "I'm gonna use this removal spell so I don't have to discard" and kills my commander = too many to count :P So if you can't rely on the curve, what do you do then when it comes to ramp and other factors? Maybe this is the point of EDH being a casual format, you can't control for success... so why bother? Just food for thought, maybe I'm just rambling and it doesn't make sense
There is something to be said about sandbagging and maybe I’ll make an updated video about that. It kinda depends on your meta. On average if your commander is a value 3 drop most players are not taking off turn 3 to remove it. Unless like you said they somehow have 8 cards in hand and need to spend one. For most games this should work but it’s not perfect just like any guide :)
The you dont need the best lands rings so true in so many pods ive seen people take 2 damage from shock lands only to not even use the mana and the player will then talk about how tap lands are too slow and they would never consider them for their decks even when they dont take advantage of shocks that often. Are they good when you start and immediately have access to your two color 2 drop commander on turn two? Sure but if you only benifit off of it every other game do you really want to pay like 30 dollars for all your shocks when you could just play a couple of penny tap lands with a bit of upside?
Llanowar is not better for Kutzil, she is not a commander you play on curve... She's a Grand Abolisher. You play her on a turn when you want to attack without interference, when you have a board covered with +1/+1 counters etc. If you play Llanowar and Kutzil on turn 2, you are getting board wiped and you'll be back to the stone age. Rampant Growth and Cultivate are so much better.
Why put card draw in the command zone if not to draw cards? Like I get the commander has a secondary effect and that’s why it’s played in the 99 of other decks. But it feels like a massive wast to not start drawing cards on turn 3. Also you can just recast the commander or play board wipe protection. I feel in an aggro deck you should be ready for wipes anyway
@TheMattmatic no, the commander is omnath locus of all (I know it is a dubious choice) but I have both tatyova and aesi in there with other spells to ramp and get cards in hand with some big creatures that I can use the mana for
I was so happy when you told the exact baseline ratio, that I use: 10 ramp, 10 draw, 10 removal. In addition to this, i would add: 2-3 grave hate, 2-3 lifegain, 2-3 land removal, 2-3 answers to hexproof/indestructible.
Currently I keep my decks at 33 lands and 15 card advantage. I haven't noticed land drops being an issue, but did flood a lot when I played more lands. I am thinking of adding MDFC's to bring down the chance of 1-land hands, but the price of some of those cards has kept me hesitant.
"Card draw?" i disagree. "Card advantage." White: Create Tokens. Blue: Draw cards. Black: Mill. Red: Exile and/or self mill artifacts. Green: Cast larger creatures. There's a reason why certain colors seem to gain more advantage in certain situations. And there's a reason why every color seems to value "card draw" equally when this is a myth. Reason why colors like White are so powerful is because of cards like Land Tax. Ultimately, as long as your not missing your "one free mana a turn" you can do more in a later turn. This is the problem everyone has been doing their best to solve when MTG has the solution. It's all about how you build your deck and how lucky you get with your starting hand. Playing white and Land Tax is gone? lean on equipment a bit and run Sword of the Animist and/or Hearth and Home. Playing black and your milling more lands than you thought you'd be? There are a handful of lands you can play from the graveyard, and there are artifacts that let you shuffle your graveyard into your library. Playing red and your "Exile" card advantage effects say "Cast instead of Play?" Swap them out with Exile advantage cards that let you "Play" those cards, there's a bunch of enchantments that do this. Hope this helped, thank you for your time reading all this.
There's a lot to think about when it comes to card advantage. A lot of times a token isn't worth "A card" until it manages to trade off for an opponent's card. Similarly you could draw a card that never manages to accomplish anything, like an Ornithopter or incompatible color-hate card or something, and the act of drawing that card never put you a card ahead. Lands in particular are interesting; Is a land worth a card? The answer is, not always! We've all drafted a deck in some format where we ramped out really consistently and then ran out of resources. That's where the line between "Raw card advantage" and "Virtual card advantage" needs to be examined. Sometimes "Card Quality" is so good that you won't need access to raw card advantage. Still, I will always vouch for 2 mana draw 2 spells. Hitting land drops in commander is always essential to a good game.
I literally only watched to make sure you mentioned hypergeometric calculators
Yes! The HGC helped me calculate how many mana dorks I needed for a smooth casting of my Umori companion decks, how many creatures vs auras in my Mazzy deck, etc.
hi buddy :3
A general rule of thumb. You need ~20 cards if you want a certain effect (90%+ chance including the free mulligan) in your opening hand.
This is really solid advice instead of an attempt to offer a one size fits all solution that will inevitably fail many.
I also really appreciate you acknowledging that players experience diverse play patterns that differ from those within your "bubble." I respect a person who learns and grows from past oversights.
I do have a few general rules that I would add to your template example, but I understand that there are benefits to keeping things simple for general audiences especially since it's only included so you can articulate the importance of varying from it based on each deck's individual needs.
That said, I recommend running 4-5 boardwipes. When deployed correctly, even symmetrical ones can act as another form of card advantage.
I also run a minimum of 5 counterspells that cost 1 mana or less in every deck that has access to blue. Obviously, the ability to remove any card from the stack provides unrivaled coverage, but even in aggressive decks, the option to prevent a boardwipe, protect your commander, or ensure that your win con isn't stopped is invaluable.
Lastly, I want to thank you. Your content has inspired me to relaunch my channel. I'm not sure yet whether I'll do so under the old banner or just start from scratch, but listening to your content gets me pumped about getting back into the TH-cam game. ✌️
If everyone runs 4-5 board wipes.... thats not going to be a very fun player experience tbh. Unless people play decks that don't care about creatures.
@IMTSin well, that depends on a number of factors.
1.) I, like Trinket Mage, am a high-powered casual enthusiast. Very few decks at that power level win by turning creatures sideways.
2.) Doing so only makes protection spells like Teferi's Protection, Fierce Guardianship (when played as the creators intended), and Tamayo's Safekeeping more powerful leading to some explosive plays.
3.) Doing do also bypasses many popular forms of protection like Ward, Lightning Greaves, Swiftfoot Boots, etc., which can be especially frustrating to play against when applied to hatebears like Drannith Magistrate or commanders that win the game if a player is allowed to untap with them in play.
In the environments I prefer to play running 4 boardwipes should be the minimum expectation if not more in dedicated control decks or less in decks racing to assemble a combo. For example, my Atraxa superfriends deck runs approximately 12, my Breya deck of many combos might only run one, and my Mageta and his Indestructible friends deck is built to wipe the board at least once per turn cycle for the entire game.
@@IMTSin It doesn't have to. As the second comment explains, there are dozens of reasons to play X or Y boardwipes. Depending on your deck, depending on the power level, etc.... Now, if you play 4 or 5 but 3 of those 4 are asymmetric, and you're left with a full table, it's not a bad experience for your opponents because you'll probably kill one or two that same turn. So the game ends “fast” or suddenly and you can play the next one.
People have to learn that interaction exists and not everyone wants to play in the brave new world where there are no boardwipes. You have to learn to live with it.
@@Controlqueen31 most boardwipes are not asymmetrical tho. Especially if you are running 4-5.
@@majinvegeta6364 I would say that the advice you gave only applies for those wanting to play high power EDH. if you show up to a normal game of EDH running low cost counter spells and 4 board wipes, then it’s likely not the same style of game that others wanted to have.
I just disagree that those ideas should be used as a template. 1-2 board wipes and 4-5 counter spells is pretty normal. Unless your deck is mono-blue, you’ll likely use other forms of removal as well.
If everyone runs a bunch of board wipes and a bunch of counterspells then you have 4 people running some level of control style, which isn’t in line with low-mid power EDH. My friend group plays mostly mid power EDH, and I’ve played lots of high power EDH before, I can’t use the deck building strategies I use for high power EDH in mid power, as it often leads to a very one sided game.
I am here to assist in gaming the algorithm
Appreciate it
I run Kutzil and the reason i don't have those 1-drop mana dorks is that they don't get me white quickly enough. avacyn's pilgrim is obviously in the deck
There's no way someone actually asked you what they're supposed to do about Monkey Cage Meta. I refuse to believe that one.
Someone asked me what I think of the card because that commenter and their friends love it. So it was a shoutout to that player! I don’t think they struggled against the card
@@thetrinketmage Monkey Cage is definitely sweet. Highly recommended in Raff Capashen
Bro its the best card in the game. Monkey Cage + Living Death = WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Also thnx for shouting me out Trinket Mage XD
My playgroup got butthurt at Transmogrifying Wand I'd believe it...
@@watevernub 🤦🏻 I know the feeling.
My thinking on land counts and mana rocks has changed in the last couple years for a couple reasons;
-MDFCs enabling higher land counts while also being spells
-Cheap (2 MV) value engines like Ledger Shredder, Faerie Mastermind, Pollywog Prodigy, Ripples of Undeath, etc etc
Sam Black and others have really broken these ideas down with more detail and math, but basically I tend to be on 39-41 ish land in most decks now, with maybe 5-7 of those being MDFC. If my commander costs 4 or more I'm on mana rocks, but otherwise I'm jamming as much cheap card draw as possible, plus more land, rather than rocks.
Maybe it's just my preference or that I play a lot of blue but it's hard to argue that playing a Ledger Shredder, Faerie Mastermind, Pollywog Prodigy, Sylvan Library and the like is not better than a mana rock. You can set up your board, draw valuable cards, and simply naturally hit every land drop with sources (land) that don't get hit by farewell or vandal blast or what have you. Of course, the green land ramp is unimpeachable and mana dorks can be good. It does depend on decks, but I still think broadly that most casual commander players are running both too land light and too mana rock dependant, and not utilizing MDFCs as much as they could be.
Excuse the long comment, love your videos and the podcast!
This is mostly the ratio I run as well. With how low cost the new cards are there is little need to ramp in an average deck.
Cards are so efficient that it boggles my mind when people decide they want some percentage of games where they don't play Magic.
Maybe a decade ago you needed every slot to maximize your Avenger + Craterhoof victory but these days most of the cards in your deck snowball advantage for no effort - you just need to cast them.
I was definitely looking forward to this one. I always feel like I'm not great at considering how much of each thing I have
Nice!! I've been using my 10 draw 10 ramp and 10 removal for years :D!!
I'm Glad you also recomend a similar template :'D !!
Monkey Cage mentioned 👀
1:45 into the video: alright got all my information and the ad read, that's a wrap! Lol
I think there's a lot of hand-wringing over early ramp in the format, but what is often overlooked is the powerful ramp effects that sit around the 4-5 mana range that can accelerate you through the midgame. Yes, play a healthy amount of ramp pieces in the 1-2 mana slot if it fits your deck, but also try experimenting with cards like Turnabout, Grim Hireling, Leyline Immersion, Bear Umbra, High Tide, and Jaheira-style effects. I have some decks that do the typical "ramp on two, commander on three", but I also have a few that stick a low-cost commander or value piece early, appear on par or slightly behind on mana, then catapult ahead in the midgame with these effects. I like it a lot tbh
yeah, 4-5 mana ramp is often looked down upon because it's really bad in faster 60-card formats that are better off playing 1-3 mana ramp if they ramp at all; In commander you're generally going to have more time (and hopefully other ramp pieces to accelerate 5-spells on earlier turns) where the resource advantage will help you greatly, and you have build-in flood protection in the form of your commander
Like you said, I think its going to depend on the type of deck you are running. What you play when will determine what kind of ramp you need. My oji exquisite blade deck for example needs a lot of 2 mana ramp so I can cast oji on turn three, then use it in conjunction with another 2 or 3 drop on consecutive turns to get triggers. A more aggressive deck like my Arabella Abandoned doll can't afford to be ramping on turn 1 or 2 though. The deck has no late game, and if I'm not threatening to win turn 6 or 7 ive already lost. Every turn matters and putting 1 or 2 1/1s into play could add up to over a quarter of my opponents life totals in following turns, while also providing utility like protecting or hasting my commander. The place for big ramp is grindy midrange decks like my ghalta and mavren list. The commander easily wins the game themselves but they, and the rest of the deck in general, cost a lot of mana, but it often gets wrathed and removed. More mana is necessary to rebuild quickly and the deck commonly finds itself with 20+ Lands in play by the end of the game.
Videos like this are always helpful. It's probably the 'tism or something but I usually struggle with deckbuilding when getting in to new formats unless I have a "deck skeleton" to get started with
Everyone learns differently. The important thing is that you find what works for you and never give up. It's a process, and we are all growing as players. Whether we started last week or three decades ago, we're all walking this road together together. ✌️
I just changed my mono green Voltron deck to the new Shroofus from jumpstarts. Now that my commander is 3 cost the most important change I made is replacing all my two and three mana ramp into one mana ramp. The scenario you described is exactly what happens. Turn 3 I’m swinging with a buffed mushroom at whoever chose to spend their first two turns ramping.
I added all the umbra armors, for some additional protection, and boom. A deck that will really teach the table the importance of removal.
I agree that local meta is often the biggest factor. After playing life I started running a lot more of restoration effects (getting back from grave), since I noticed I had issues rebuilding after wipes, unlike other players.
your channel is amazing man, i build my first edh deck and you help me so much with the deck building
Today will try my scarab god deck :D
Thank you! This was exactly what I was looking for. I’m getting into commander and figuring out how to build my first deck.
Holy shit, Kutzil mentioned. For her i ran into the problem that i could never have enough mana dorks to consistently ramp her on 2. But would i could have is have a 2 drop that has some buffed atk to then on 3 bring out kutzil, swing the 2 drop and draw that way. Having a draw more to find the 2 drop + the amount of them that has buffed atk is quite high.
That's how my friend runs it. The deck draws a ton of cards so the best ramp in this deck is "play an extra land" stuff, especially on a creature which can have some kind of buff applied.
Arboreal Grazer is a decent option if you're looking for unconventional dorks!
I started making every single deck with 40 lands. I tend to make janky theme decks that I always feel like I know exactly how many lands it needs, but I don't. Ever since I defaulted to 40 I've had major success testing and seeing what I might need or if I can afford to take out a land or two. In fact most of them have stayed at 40 since I don't usually run a lot of ramp to begin with. Lol
7:56 I don't really agree that Mina is a 4 mana ramp spell. She's dependent on ramping only if you have additional lands in hand. A true 4 mana ramp spell will always search for a land/lands.
Except that's what the deck is designed to do - watch his video about it lmao
You are correct but that list has 42 lands and is designed to get the extra land drop with the commander
Having run my Prosper deck since release, retooling it as viable support pieces have come & gone, the constant detail of being card draw and ramp (temporary in both cases) in the command zone has ensured its always the strongest deck in my portfolio.
Man 2 board wipes definitely seems low for me, I usually start with like 5. Also average CMC should’ve probably been added to the template honestly, I’ve found if I’m playing over like 3.3 average cmc my games can be very clunky and I feel behind all too often, personally I stick to like 2.8-3.1
I enjoy your mind. You understand this game more than most.
feel bad for the folks that clicked off after the template speedrun 😂
Thanks so much this was an amazing video, I am heading straight to the kitchen to take a deeper look into my decks and take notes to make the best of what I have , let me cook
Thinking about what you want to do on turn 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 is so crucial. I think a lot of players like the templates because it takes a super complex, involved process and reduces it down to a checklist. To be fair, a deck built within the parameters of [insert popular template here] is going to be like 70% of the way there if the choices made within that are sensible goodstuff that work within a coherent gameplan. A template is genuinely a better deckbuilder than most casual or new players.
But that lack of specificity only works within the context of the sort of generic value engine commanders that were printed in the last few years or commanders with linear game-plans - and these decks are often very commander-centric. Goldfishing a deck with a gameplan that isn't summed up by the commander's textbox is much, much harder.
Hitting your 20 pieces of generic "interaction" works fine when you're looking to stick a two-color 3 drop that says "when you do x, do y. When enough y happens, z happens" and take over the game with it. Ironically this is the type of commander that goldfishes really easily and really well.
No shade to those using templates because frankly, they tend to produce decks that do things every game, but the things they do tend to be the same sort of steady curve approaching critical mass when uninterrupted.
The lucky number is 15. Having 15 of a card means that the average number in your opening hand is 1 and you have roughly a one in seven chances of drawing it. This is why if you really want something, you go to 30.
Removal and ramp are more of a case by case basis. I usually recommend at least 8 for most midrange decks with at least 2 dealing with wide boards, artifacts/enchantments, and 4 dealing with creatures.
For ramp and land counts, I use Frank Karstens' theory adjusted for the mana curve. I have an Ardenn and Rograkh deck that has 40 lands and a sol ring with an average mana value of exactly 2. I never screw and it does not matter if I flood due to my card draw.
I have a hard time goldfishing with interaction in my hand, like do I cast a creature or do i keep mana up for a instant spell. Do you have any advice for that?
I usually go with what is worse for you deck. Assume the bad situation and go with that
I also try to imagine a boardwipe every other turn just to see where I am and how I would rebuild if that were to happen.
@@commanderpower99 I usually goldfish assuming a BW its hitting on turn 5 or 6
You could consider to keep the removal in hand until the turn that your playgroup its usually setting the last piece of their engines or going for a early win
That's why I quit goldfishing years ago. What my decks need are stress tests to make sure they have adequate coverage and can rebuild from set backs, not simply waltz to the finishline unchallenged.
Great video. It can be intimidating making 'the perfect deck's but that doesn't exist and shouldn't but it is still important to build in a way that makes your deck viable at any table. and that can be done at any price point.
I literally proxy all expensive cards I need and nobody cares cuz it's commander
MADE IN ABYSS REFERENCE LETS GO!
I haven't seen that show but it looks extremely cute. The exact kind of show I should watch where nothing bad ever happens.
Currently I'm making a Grazilaxx, Illithid Scholar deck and it runs almost no mana rocks and only like 30-ish lands. My turns 1 and 2 are playing one mana unblockable and turn 3 is playing graz. After this point I'm drawing 4 cards a turn and i don't miss land drops.
Tuning, tweaking, and goldfishing a deck is advice for folks that play more than 2 games every two months. For we irregular players, a formulaic method to deckbuilding works. I enjoy your videos, though, as they're always well thought out.
I’m making a kutzli deck while listening to this. Spooky.
I’m in your walls
fyi everyone, video ends at 1:28 :P
Exactly what I needed just now :)
This video convinced me to cut all the ramp from a deck I’m brewing thank you
My Shadrix breakdown
34 lands
10 ramp
12 spot removal
11 card draw
3 board wipes
4 protection
2 wincons
3 target land destruction
3 graveyard exile
I think most people actually do realize that the guides are meant to be a reference, and nothing more. It takes time and research to get an understanding as to how to build a commander deck.
There's just never enough space for all the cool stuff I wanna cram into my decks, I always end up with humongous piles of cards and cutting stuff down takes ages...
I would modify basic template a bit
12 removal total is a good amount, but 10 spot / 2 whipes is a bad split IMO
Those who would benefit from such a template are usually less experienced, and their decks will be less powerful then others at the table. I would suggest just put a bit more whipes and a bit less spot removal, it tends to work better
I never use board wipes. If I get taken out, then that is what will happen.
Unless the power level difference is too great, I really don't mind others popping off and running with the victory.
Same here. I might run 1 but I’d rather just go next game and try again rather than stop the game and have everyone slowly rebuild again. I don’t like 2 hour long games anymore and 9 times out of 10 when I have a board wipe I choose not to play it because I don’t want to extend the game
@@yoyoguy1st They do just draw stuff out for sure, but my main reason is that I just don't find them fun.
They are much less "needed" if the decks are close to each other in power level.
This is insane. It's like if a marathon was decided by whoever was ahead in the first mile 😂
@@traycarrot What?
@@kunopumpernikkel215 This is insane. It's like if a marathon was decided by whoever was ahead in the first mile 😂
The elusive edh template
With my luck, I always run at least 37 lands, 14 ramp, and 14 card draw.
It's excessive, I know. But even with those numbers, I still manage to find 3 land opening hands that leave me mana screwed.
But, to be fair, I do play a lot of bug stompy green. 😅
Do you have any videos on building more resilient decks, or know of any? I sometimes find myself falling behind when I don’t find my card draw pieces, even though I have plenty in the deck. And when I do find it having it get picked off shuts me down.
30 removal spells
20 card draw spells
???
Your commander kills them eventually >:)
My old Baral deck
Wincon: 1 Laboratory Maniac and infinite patience
If we cant find an ideal number of x cards, can there be an ideal percentage to find from a hypergeometric calculator? Like maybe "You need X% to make it a viable number" or at least a tange of them?
Is it an interesting thing to think about or is it the 2 am hitting me?
I have been thinking about the curve-out situation a lot for my Rhonas deck. I really wanna go 1 mana ramp on turn 1, Rhonas turn 2, 4-attack-creature turn 3. But the number of 1 mana ramp spells is limited unless you want to throw out money for delighted halfling, or Birds in a mono-green deck. And mulliganing aggressively for the ramp is a bad idea because that has a higher chance of leading to no followup 4-attack-creature on turn 3.
So my main question there is, how much other ramp should the deck even have, and what other stuff should I put in the deck to play on turn 1 or 2 for when I do not draw a 1 mana ramp card? Quite a conundrum...
I did a quick count of 1 mana ramp and there are 18 budget options. Obviously you won't run all of them, but 12 will give you a ~85% chance to have one with the free mull. Idk how many 4 attack creatures you would want but 20 gives you 90% chance to find one by turn 3 (no mulligan).
Remeber that with the free mull and london mulligan it is almost always worth to mull to a better starting hand.
@@asiniel23216 Ok lets see...
There's really only the following options:
Llanowar Elves, Elvish Mystic, Fyndhorn Elves, Arbor Elf, Wild Growth, Utopia Sprawl, Boreal Druid (not that cheap anymore), Birds of Paradise (also not cheap), Delighted Halfling (definitely not cheap), and Sol Ring. So that is 7, with around 3 other options that get increasingly more expensive.
All other cards I could find that cost 1 mana and would provide immediate extra mana on turn 2 and 3 either rely on further requirements (like Springleaf Drum) or are outside of the monogreen color identity (like Avacyn's Pilgrim).
Which specific cards am I missing that you had in mind?
First!
love your videos man, keep up the awesome content.
You beat me to it! Ragghhh!!!
From your videos i think i know you don't really like commanders like jodah because he falls into the same category like the ur dragon. But how many creatures would you run in a jodah deck? I want to pack more removal but i think the only thing i can cut are creatures. I'm at 36 creatures right now. Any suggestions?
36 is a thick creature base. Could probably cut like 3-4
I'm going to assume you're talking about Jodah, the Unifier. Depending on how quickly you get Jodah and what the other creatures are doing, then you can cut up to 10. You can also swap those creatures for creatures that also work as removal.
Ah, that explains why my deck hasn’t been running very smoothly. I’ve got too many cantrips and not enough card draw engines.
The only problem is that my deck is really jank and relies on a lot of unrelated things to function, topdeck manipulation being one of them. Like, I like to think I’m good at finding cards to include in my decks. But I’m sort of at a loss as to what sorts of things an Esper Manifest-Morph-Equipment-Counters deck needs to function smoothly outside of the mandatory pieces which already cover a majority of the deck.
I was pretty proud of the mana base for a bit, but I think I added too many Evolving Wilds variants to it, and now I’m swamped in taplands. I even dropped most of the black cards because I was having trouble getting more than one black source in a game.
It sounds like you might be working with too many themes. Do you have a decklist online?
"I'm sort of at a loss for what my __ deck needs to operate smoothly"
The answer is in the question, my friend.
I do have a decklist online, and I did make a bunch of changes last night. Yes, it was the cantrips that were the issue. Fixed up the mana base a tiny bit and added some actual card draw engines and it started running much more smoothly.
Still super jank, obviously, but I was able to keep myself in the game and remove stuff when it mattered.
The themes do overlap more than you’d think… I didn’t mention it was an Arna Kennerüd deck. She ties the whole thing together.
My only question becomes what if I want to play my commander off curve? Do I artificially treat my commander as having a larger cost? Doing this leaves mana up to protect it for a turn cycle
I know this isn’t a clean answer but it depends. Why do you want it off curve. Is it to also hold up a counterspell or is it because you need something in play earlier. I’d look to the iron man example if my goal was to get a 6 drop in play then I might play my commander off curve and build around getting the 5 drop in play before my commander. I hope that helps
@@thetrinketmage In my case i noticed that my Commander get removed too often, so i kinda decided to play it at 6 mana instead of 6 so i have some protection in hand and there are more things in play to target instead of it, but now i wonder if i should just consider it like a 6 mana commander
What colours is it?
But what if I play my commander on curve and then someone randomly nukes it? I always get confused about the "casting on curve" topic because what even is your curve based on your opponents' situation? If everyone taps out and plays perfectly on curve, then you're probably okay... but the amount of times someone hasn't had a good opening hand and just says "I'm gonna use this removal spell so I don't have to discard" and kills my commander = too many to count :P
So if you can't rely on the curve, what do you do then when it comes to ramp and other factors? Maybe this is the point of EDH being a casual format, you can't control for success... so why bother?
Just food for thought, maybe I'm just rambling and it doesn't make sense
There is something to be said about sandbagging and maybe I’ll make an updated video about that. It kinda depends on your meta. On average if your commander is a value 3 drop most players are not taking off turn 3 to remove it. Unless like you said they somehow have 8 cards in hand and need to spend one. For most games this should work but it’s not perfect just like any guide :)
I always run like 45 lands like a Mad man
The you dont need the best lands rings so true in so many pods ive seen people take 2 damage from shock lands only to not even use the mana and the player will then talk about how tap lands are too slow and they would never consider them for their decks even when they dont take advantage of shocks that often. Are they good when you start and immediately have access to your two color 2 drop commander on turn two? Sure but if you only benifit off of it every other game do you really want to pay like 30 dollars for all your shocks when you could just play a couple of penny tap lands with a bit of upside?
can you talk about reanimator decks? i build a scarab god and idk what is the path to the victory haha
I have an old video on it. Check my playlist of archetype breakdowns
@@thetrinketmage will go to check it out, thank you! greetings from Argentina
I am early. Um... hi, great content. Keep it up. No pressure :)
Rolls up with a mana base of entirely rainbow lands-
Llanowar is not better for Kutzil, she is not a commander you play on curve... She's a Grand Abolisher. You play her on a turn when you want to attack without interference, when you have a board covered with +1/+1 counters etc. If you play Llanowar and Kutzil on turn 2, you are getting board wiped and you'll be back to the stone age. Rampant Growth and Cultivate are so much better.
Why put card draw in the command zone if not to draw cards? Like I get the commander has a secondary effect and that’s why it’s played in the 99 of other decks. But it feels like a massive wast to not start drawing cards on turn 3. Also you can just recast the commander or play board wipe protection. I feel in an aggro deck you should be ready for wipes anyway
0:21
In a row?
Hell yeah
I didnt came here for my deck to be just fine....ho wait there is more video (actual joke I told myself before your coment)
Is 47 lands too much for a landfall?
1. Does your commander draw cards? 2. Is your commander a mana sink? Two questions to ask yourself. So maybe, maybe not
@TheMattmatic no, the commander is omnath locus of all (I know it is a dubious choice) but I have both tatyova and aesi in there with other spells to ramp and get cards in hand with some big creatures that I can use the mana for
I was so happy when you told the exact baseline ratio, that I use:
10 ramp, 10 draw, 10 removal.
In addition to this, i would add: 2-3 grave hate, 2-3 lifegain, 2-3 land removal, 2-3 answers to hexproof/indestructible.
Goldfishing on moxfield is awful. I find that physical cards act easy different then his ever the websites randomize.
Monkey cage gaming
Currently I keep my decks at 33 lands and 15 card advantage. I haven't noticed land drops being an issue, but did flood a lot when I played more lands. I am thinking of adding MDFC's to bring down the chance of 1-land hands, but the price of some of those cards has kept me hesitant.
I bet playing Kutzil T2 has a lower winrate
Id say 4-5 board wipes one or two that include exiling.
that sounds like an exhausting meta to play in. One 5 hour game a night sounds miserable
@monkeeb Two seems rather low. Two at least with exile. Depends where you are playing.
@@OverlyCriticalAnime Two is plenty
@@ev5837 It's 99 cards. Four is fine also.
I hardly even include board wipes in my decks, I include like 1 now. 5 seems wild.
Fourth!
I stopped at the "very nice 69 cards" ;)
I’m so greedy with how many lands I run even with plenty of ramp. Makes me mulligan a lot but I really like the other cards I have in.
"Card draw?" i disagree. "Card advantage."
White: Create Tokens.
Blue: Draw cards.
Black: Mill.
Red: Exile and/or self mill artifacts.
Green: Cast larger creatures.
There's a reason why certain colors seem to gain more advantage in certain situations. And there's a reason why every color seems to value "card draw" equally when this is a myth. Reason why colors like White are so powerful is because of cards like Land Tax. Ultimately, as long as your not missing your "one free mana a turn" you can do more in a later turn. This is the problem everyone has been doing their best to solve when MTG has the solution. It's all about how you build your deck and how lucky you get with your starting hand.
Playing white and Land Tax is gone? lean on equipment a bit and run Sword of the Animist and/or Hearth and Home. Playing black and your milling more lands than you thought you'd be? There are a handful of lands you can play from the graveyard, and there are artifacts that let you shuffle your graveyard into your library. Playing red and your "Exile" card advantage effects say "Cast instead of Play?" Swap them out with Exile advantage cards that let you "Play" those cards, there's a bunch of enchantments that do this.
Hope this helped, thank you for your time reading all this.
There's a lot to think about when it comes to card advantage. A lot of times a token isn't worth "A card" until it manages to trade off for an opponent's card. Similarly you could draw a card that never manages to accomplish anything, like an Ornithopter or incompatible color-hate card or something, and the act of drawing that card never put you a card ahead. Lands in particular are interesting; Is a land worth a card? The answer is, not always! We've all drafted a deck in some format where we ramped out really consistently and then ran out of resources. That's where the line between "Raw card advantage" and "Virtual card advantage" needs to be examined. Sometimes "Card Quality" is so good that you won't need access to raw card advantage. Still, I will always vouch for 2 mana draw 2 spells. Hitting land drops in commander is always essential to a good game.
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