As another reactor said, I love that every animator has universally decided that in the second verse of Ruthlessness, Poseidon is physically beating the crap out of Odysseus. No ocean waves, no giant horse form, just putting hands on him. Poseidon, ironically, is teaching Odysseus the lesson that Athena couldn't; if you throw your name and location around as a challenge, someone will take it.
Gigi's Poseidon gives off a disappointed angry Grandfather feel and this one has always felt more God about to mess your shit up and enjoy every second of it.
Funny, my interpretation of them is a total flip of that. Gigi's seemed like he was enjoying himself way more, where as Ani's definitely enjoyed it, but seemed way more disappointed in Oddy than anything else.
i'd say the difference is this poseidon feels more scary in a way and feels more like a VILLAIN in his portrayal. He's here to crush Odysseus' idealism and make him SUFFER and RELISH in that suffering for DARING to try and be 'good'.
Fun fact about Poseidon: Zeus got the sky, Hades the underworld. Poseidon got everything in between. With that in mind : Sea , earthquakes and horses make sense belonging to the same god .
And back in Mycaenaean Greece, Poseidon was king of the gods, and had everything Hades had domain over, Hades didn't exist yet, and Zeus was just a minor sky god.
Pretty sure Poseidon just got the sea, he makes earthquakes with his trident which specifically has that ability, not sure where the horses comes from, can't remember. Whilst Zeus got the sky, Hades got the underworld and Poseidon got the sea, the gods didn't know who should get the earth so they decided neither got it (Poseidon is not the god of the hills and mountains after all)
@@a.i.1328 I don't know if this came before or after Poseidon became the god of horses as well, but I remember a story where Poseidon and Athena were competing to be the patron deity of Athens. Athena offered the olive and the olive tree, and Poseidon's gift changes based on the version. In some, he creates lakes, ponds, rivers, and even fountains; while, in others, he created the chariot. That is the first instance I know of that Poseidon has gotten involved with horses.
With that my goodbye, as its ending... She keeps repeating herself, and then staring at him... Like she's looking for a sign. Waiting for him to turn back, like she never thought he'd actually walk away.
In the previous animatic Athena "won" the argument, with Odysseus standing their when Athena leaves. While in Mircsy's one Odysseus "won" because he is walking away while Athena screams after him.
Also, in that scene, with the "this is my goodbye", repeated three times, it seems like she is trying to get the same melodies as in "warrior of the mind", but failing because she doesn't have Odysseus anymore.
@@skiga specifically the remakes of this saga athena sounds more hurt plus jorge even haas a after ody says "YOUR ALONE!" in the pause theirs a little subtitle for "this hurts athena" and the vocal performancee for athena's next line is more sorrowful instead of the heated agument this version goes
“Oh that lines worse!” “It hurts so much more the second time.” Yeah that’s how I’ve learned Jorge is such a lyricist and knows exactly where his version of the Odyssey wants to go. Really hope we get like an animated duology some day
Most people think of apologies as modern day ones where you say, "I am sorry" and basically beg for forgiveness. Odysseus was doing the apologies Greeks from their time period would. The Greek word apologia (ἀπολογία) means "speaking in defense" and is derived from the prefix apo-, which means "away from," and the word logia, which comes from the Greek word lógos, meaning "speech". In Latin, apologia is translated as apology. Basically you would do what Odysseus did, express your sympathies while also explaining yourself to the best of your abilities while remaining respectful. If the offended part accepts the apologia then everything was well. If not well... Poseidon is a good enough answer. The "ruthlesness is mercy" was also very Greek. Be a monster to everyone who is NOT your family, friend, or ally. If someone harms them? Pay it back in a mountain of bl00d, pain, and suff€ring. Which is what Poseidon did. There is absolutely NO WAY for Odysseus to ever pay back Poseidon for the harm he caused. That cyclops is crippled which was seen as a great disgracs & embarassment back then. It would have been the truly honorable to simply k×ll him back then as now his son will be reliant on the generosity of his fellow cyclops. The monster races were seen as lesser than. The k×lling of him wouldn't have angered Poseidon. But what DOES anger him? Not honoring his words to dedicate their win to Poseidon in the battle of Troy. Not praying to him for a safe journey home. Not worshipping Poseidon but Athena despite Ithica being a seafaring kingdom. And MOST CERTAINLY? Crippling his child, using a fake name while showing "mercy", mocking him again with his real name once he got angry, leaving him with his real name as a punishment, d0xxing his home address--all while KNOWING he was Poseidon's son. The frequent disrespect and basically calling Poseidon out to 1v1 him in Greek terms. But lets not forget Odysseus is stuck with an idiot crew in the canon story. 😒 Tbf I am team Odysseus after reading the book. Do I condone everything Odysseus does? No, but I certainly wouldn't judge him.
… Thanks for the historical context, M8. A lot of the cultural subtext like these can be lost to a modern audience who has a different world view then those before us. >):^]
You worded that so much better than I could have. I won't get into whether Odysseus was being merciful or cruel and mocking, because I've had that discussion way too many times. But I would like to correct you on one minor detail. While in the Odyssey he does know Polyphemus is Poseidon's son, in EPIC he doesn't know until Poseidon reveals it. "That's right, the cyclops you made blind is mine." "No..." That said, I admire the knowledge you have on Greek customs and can tell you're very familiar with the Odyssey outside of modern retellings.
Not only that but in the book I’m quite certain that they were ill equity to kill Polyphemus. They were stuck in the cave for days watching their comrades being eaten, that does thing to your morals and they needed Polyphemus to open the cave (boulder blocked the entrance) so they drugged and blinded him to make the escape easier and then they hid under the sheeps while the other cycles came to investigate. There wasn’t really any time to kill him, especially not with all the other Cyclopes. The name thing though…. I guess after watching his men being eaten alive he wanted to gloat.
I love how you understood each animatic differently specially ruthlessness. But something that gives me te impression that Odysseus is once again just lying is the smile right at the end of the "apology" For me it seems a lot like a "oof, I saved everything again" smile
I disagree I feel like that's a specialty thing as what counts as a apology changes and now people won't allow you to explain yourself when back then explaining yourself was the apology
@siramaytheshowgundragon except he's not explaining himself, He's lieing through his teeth to save himself from trouble. Plus the old use of apologia was mainly supposed to be used in a legal defence, and even then in our main source for it's use (plato's apology) it points out this kind of apology didn't work even back then since Socrates attempts at justification rather than expressing remorse were unsuccessful and led to his death.
@@matthewmac5787 man why you gotta argue with me such rudeness very rude! he is explaining himself though its not a lie and how dare you imply it is "we meant no harm" he didnt he just wanted food and thought it was empty when he saw it belong to someone he wanted to make a trade, "we only hurt him to disarm him" thats what they did they would have all died if they did it "took no pleasure in pain" he didn't despite what some say he was going to leave but then Athena pushed him to make it a teaching momment unintentional he only wanted to escape he apologized and tried to explain himself dont be a jerk
To me, it looks more like a nervous smile. Like, "Okay, I did what you asked. That means we're cool now...right?" And that's where Poseidon's line comes in. The line between Odysseus displaying hopefulness (believing that he's able to make everything right with his words) and naiveté (failing to understand what Poseidon has been talking about the entire time) is almost invisible. In other words, if he'd just listened to Poseidon and paid attention, he would have known that a mere apology was never going to make things right, and maybe he could have at least saved his men by accepting his own death.
I maintain that the true theme of the musical isn't "ruthlessness is mercy on ourselves", but rather "the blood on your hands is something you won't lose, all you can choose is whose", because whenever Odysseus makes a major choice, that's what it comes down to. The infant prince, or his family? The cyclops, or his crew? His crew, or himself? Every step of the way, he's having to choose who has to suffer, who has to die, and every time he tries not to choose it just makes things worse. The only time things work out for him is when he's resolute, and he makes his decision no matter how hard it is.
Considering Jorge said the theme is Ruthlesness... I don't know man, I kinda side with the guy who wrote it all more. But to be fair, what you see as the theme is still ruthelessness, I mean "choose whose blood is on your hands" is a ruthless line on it's own 😂
Also Poseidon cradling a baby and dropping it while saying that Odysseus could've avoided his wrath if he had just killed the cyclops, a real nice touch in terms of ruthlessness being mercy to one's self
In Ruthlessness, it is easy to blame Ody once more for trying to find a loophole and talk down Posiedon instead of actually apologizing to him. But my question is... Would an apology actually even matter? Imagine for a second that Odysseus genuinely apologized, and went:- "I'm really sorry, Wet Hades, for having blinded your son. I am truly remorseful and I promise to never do it again!" Would Posiedon have actually forgiven him then? I don't think so... Cause that would be an act of *mercy*. And we already know what his stance is on that!
You could make the argument that, the Greek mentality was being kind to your allies and horrible to your foes, and Odysseus actually apologizing would make him not a foe anymore.. But I don't think so
The way I look at it is that if he actually get on his knees and truly made an apology to Poseidon then only Odysseus would’ve been drowned. I do not know whether that would’ve been only his ship or only him specifically. The reason I think this is because polytheist would have told his father that it was Odysseus who blinded and wounded him. So beside only actually needs to punish Odysseus himself. The rest of the crew and the fleet of ships. Poseidon, could care less about those. If anything because Odysseus didn’t give a true apology, Poseidon sunk his fleet and killed those 558 men to prove the point to Odysseus that he was not making an apology. He was not taking responsibility. He was trying to avoid the consequences of his actions. Which led to the death of almost all of his crew that he had fought in the Trojan war with for six years. And had he not escaped with the windbag Then all of them would’ve died right then in there.
@@dragon44048 Damned if you do, and damned if you don't 💀💀💀 Never thought of it like that, that Posiedon would have *solely* blamed Ody and taken his life as compensation for blinding his son. It's certainly an interesting perspective--and it kinda relates to 'Thunder Bringer' where Zeus asks him to choose between his life or the lives of his crew. There he made the choice willingly, but here he may have accidentally made the same choice--his arrogance/attempt to outwit Posiedon made him make an example of Ody's crew; but simultaneously giving him the opening to escape himself!
Indeed. The entire point of the song was that mercy is a weakness. The best response that he could have given would have been to immediately demand an ordeal, or offer a major sacrifice to make up for it. While it may not necessarily have worked, it had better chances than apologising and proving that he hadn't actually learned what Poseidon just spent the entire song trying to teach him. He even said it outright - "but before you go I need to make you learn how Ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves!"
Nah, Poseidon wouldn't have let them go peacefully no matter what, the lyric _"the line between naivity and hopefulness, is almost invisible"_ is basically telling us, that Ody (love that nickname) is naive for actually thinking that there is a way to get out.
I always interpreted Odysseus' apology as not an apology, but justification. I think he's genuine. He wanted to escape, he didn't want a fight, he just wanted to feed his crew so they could get home. But he never says sorry. He is given a chance by Poseidon to apologize, and instead of doing so, he gets on his high horse to the highest of all horses. NO word of Odysseus' was an apology. It was him trying to write away his violence towards Polyphemus with soft words while accepting no fault.
The word Sorry being a meaningful apology is not really a concept you can apply to most place in the ancient world, especially so in ancient Greece where an eye for an eye was the morality of many city states. In that context that many places valued reparation and retribution action over any word saying sorry is literally often seen as a mark of incinserity and trying to minimize or dodge retribution.
@@boxtank5288 Well, not necessarily. If you think about it, Posiden's whole thing was teaching Odysseus that "Ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves." If you look at Posiden's next line after Odysseus makes his justification, "The line between naivety and hopefulness is almost invisible", he's calling Odysseus naive for still believing that any form of apology or justification would cause Posidon to be merciful, especially after everything Posidon had just ranted about. So he was gonna sink the fleet either way.
Horse God Poseidon is a GOD. I love that he isn't just a stereotypical sea monster, that he's harnessed (pun not intended) the majesty and danger of his domains. And the tie in of horse imagery with Odysseus using a horse to invade Troy, dropping the shadow infant, like he's being reminded even then that he has to be ruthless and that he WAS ruthless at the start of the musical... it's just so brilliant. So, so brilliant, and horse Poseidon will always be my favourite Poseidon for that reason.
In this version of ruthlessness Posidon feels like he is making a statement. An apology wont help. If i let you go now everyone else will think they can mess with me. You need to understand that you need to follow through on your acts and to make sure that you are have the position of power that people wont mess with you in the future
Anniflamma Ruthlessness sighted let's go!!! Gigi's Ruthlessness is very good, but something about Anniflamma's just hits so well. Poseidon's understated design and horse motifs, kinda implying how people underestimate the ocean and the seas, the motion and flow feel a bit tighter, and I just feel like it overall better represents Poseidon. So glad you decided to check out alternate animatics as there are so many good ones out there. If you decide to do more I HIGHLY recommend Neal Illustrator's Thunder Bringer as being a top tier animatic. Really only thing stopping it from being the definitive Thunder Bringer is it doesn't take place on a boat, but everything else just makes up for it in droves.
I would love to sea Neal redo that animatic just on a boat. It wouldn't even take that much alteration work given how much of the animatic is just Zeus in the clouds and close ups of the crew.
No one ever seems to talk about tamatama's Ruthlessness animatic, which makes me sad, since it's one of my absolute favorites! I love how the Poseidon in it is mostly just dismissive and "here to teach these ants their lesson", he isn't truly wrathful or gleeful about what he's doing, he's more... disappointed? Wanting to deal with an annoyance? And he is the water itself, he shapes from and dissolves into the waves constantly. Not to mention, literally shaping a terrifying and inescapable boss arena from the waves and then breaking the ships with a forest of water cyclones :D I love Gigi, Anni and Neal's versions, but tamatama's just speaks to my soul in some way xD
The ancient Greek godhead is Zeus, deity of the sky, clouds, lightning, thunder, and generally just weather; however, the Mycenean Greeks (the far older variant) saw their godhead as Poseidon who was the Earth-shaker, the ocean king, and even the deity of the underworld. When Poseidon was godhead, Zeus was just his brother while Hades didn't even exist as a deity whatsoever. It's pretty interesting that the ancient Greeks are of the sky and climbing into the heavens while the more archaic Greeks saw greater power with death and the lowering into an abyss.
Something I love about the Odyssey is that Odysseus's troubles come from the need to balance hubris, pride that is considered excessive, with the need for "kleos", which roughly translates to "glory" or "reputation". For Odysseus and other heroes of this era, kleos is the ultimate virtue. Everything from great deeds to material wealth to a secured legacy contributes to kleos, which is why on the way home to Ithaca Odysseus often engages in raids and piracy. He's worried that because his legacy isn't secure, since he hasn't been able to return to his wife and son, his kleos is diminishing, so he HAS to do these stupid/courageous things. The incident with Polyphemus is a classic example of an attempt to build kleos, because Odysseus attaches his name to the defeat (or so he thinks) of a great foe. Of course, this strays into hubris, but that's the dichotomy that exists in all Greek myth when it comes to its heroes. And because kleos passes from father to son, Telemachus's efforts to find his father later in the Odyssey come from both a desire to bring him home, and from a desire to build his own kleos by finding out what Odysseus's fate is. This is also why the suitors are considered so vile, because they're abusing the laws of hospitality to both attack Odysseus's family AND deprive his household of its wealth. It's a very "Bronze Age" mindset, and it's what I love so much about this story. Everyone thinks very differently, but their motivations are still ultimately sympathetic to modern audiences. (Also fun fact, "kleos" forms the root of Heracles's name. It is literally "Hera Kles", or "Glory to Hera", since Heracles was named that to try and avoid attracting Hera's wrath. It didn't work, but it was a good effort!)
Genuinely, GENUINELY thank you for reacting to Anniflamma's Ruthlessness and posting it here! I love this current reaction craze of epic, but a part that was hard to swallow was that anni's animatic (The one that pretty much got me Into Epic) was either not reacted to at all, or was reacted to but it was behind a paywall. I've gotten over it as time has gone on, but every time now that someone does give a reaction, I just get a noticable surge of happiness. Thank you! And glad to see you enjoy this story of very flawed people.
The great comedy is that Athena lets him go when really it would be far more in character for her to smite him for injuring her. The fact she allowed herself to get injured, and him to leave, shows she genuinely cares. Although, deities have a different kind of emotional extremes and limits, they don't feel the same way humans do.
I can see Athena, being the goddess of wisdom, tolerating Odysseus talking back to her and insulting her. Hovewer, I feel like if Odysseus actually tried to kill her, the song would end the moment he throws his sword at her owl form and the story would skip straight to the "Underworld Saga". Gods in greek myths don't just take such disrespect and calmly leave :D
Oh my word THANK YOU for reacting to Anniflamma's Ruthlessness! They worked SO insanely hard on it (I followed their WIPS on tiktok), and it needs so much more love. Like, Gigi's is also super good, but Anniflamma's Poseidon is just SO cool imo. I'm so glad you also showed your reaction to it. And no matter what one feels about Poseidon's motivations, Odysseus still gets the tar beat out of him XD;
Here's my take about Poseidan's verse. When he says that the line between naivete and hopefulness being nearly invisible, he is referring to how hard it is to verify if trusting someone's apology (or whatever it was Odysseus tried) who has wronged you is the right call or not. He then follows up with "So close your heart, the world is dark" before ending it with "ruthlessness is mercy" to say that just don't take anything they say, and spare yourself the regrets by not taking any chances. Whether Odysseus was being sincere or not, Poseidon doesn't care. He doesn't want to take any chances so he doesn't have to suffer making the mistake of letting Odysseus go.
around 40:00 I've always interpreted "The line between naivete and hopefulness is almost invisible" being about Odysseus confessing to his crime for a small hope of survival. He could've claimed that he got the wrong ship, or that it wasn't them that did it, that someone else was trying to frame them. But he confessed that it was them, for the hope that Poseidon would forgive them, being naive to think he would take an apology like that.
And "Unless of course you apologize for my sons pain" to me has always felt like Poseidon playing with Ody. After that entire song, how would anyone think he would be merciful? Really? It really is calling Ody naive for thinking an apology would change anything. And the people that claim "Ody never said sorry in those lines, if only" Dude! Poseidon is making fun of you too! lol
I love Anniflamma's take on Ruthlessness. Poseidon referencing the infant at Troy to mock Odysseus by droping the dark water. The fact that you could see a frame of Odysseus getting angry as Poseidon manhandles him but can still nothing as he drags him around by the hair, Poseidon telling Odysseus he is his darkest moment while in his horse form. Talking about not only this moment but also referencing Troy. And the fact when Poseidon finally begins destroying Odysseus is just a helpless to the waves as the rest of his crew.
I feel the reason for "The line between naivety and hopefulness is almost invisible" after the apology is directly applied to Odysseus for believing Poseidon actually would forgive him with an apology. Poseidon spends the whole time beating "ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves" into Odysseus and it was very much a moment of "Have you listened to a single word I said?". I highly doubt even a perfect apology from Odysseus would have been granted any forgiveness, especially after the entire theme of the song. So the "apologize" part was literally a popquiz/trick question lmao
11:17 "This is his breakup with the Divine Sugar Mama." I love that I'm encountering a phrase coined by Mortius on a completely different reactor's channel. 😂 He has gotten so big that Luke Holt is a fan of his reactions with Casper Fox. LUKE HOLT, the voice of Zeus himself! It's awesome seeing him interact with the cast on Tik Tok.
Not so fun fact, the land of the giants also means the land of the Laestrygonions (man eating giants) meaning Odysseus's men werent just killed but also eaten afterwards
I need you to go back to Anniflamma's Ruthlessness: right after Poseidon stomps on the ship "i mean, you totally could have avoided all this if you just killed my son". Poseidon is cradling an Infant shaped blob. "...but ~nO~" Poseidon drops the Infant blob. Ouch! Please tell me I'm not the only one that noticed this call back to Just A Man. The implied 'you did it once, what was one more time?'
"He will burn your house and throne. He'll find you wherever you go." has the same melody as "He will chase you high and low, so find a place he'd never go." from "Suffering".
I super suggest watching all of aniflamma's videos because they're honestly amazing. The designs, animation, and choreography are all so incredible. Definitely a favorite
Something worth noting is that Odysseus never properly apologizes. No "I'm sorry", no "I apologize", no "You're right, I made a mistake, sorry". He just begins trying to justify his actions to Poseidon.
Poseidon's next line is "the line between naivete and hopefulness is almost invisible" Poseidon is calling him naive for thinking an apology would be enough so it does not matter weather he truly apologized or not.
@@QelerQr yes it was pointless but had he apologised properly he too could have run to hermes and cry about how Poseidon bullied him even tho he clearly said sowwy for the oopsie he made(Hermes is Odysseus's ancestor)
@@Ashishgchhetrito be fair, I don’t think Hermes could’ve done anything. Hermes is an Olympian god, yes, but he’s way younger than Poseidon and doesn’t have as powerful as a realm. Poseidon is much more elemental, what with his control over the seas and earthquakes. Hermes is the god of individuals like travelers and tricksters - even when Hermes *did* try to help Odysseus, it was to go against a much more minor goddess like Circe.
Odysseus was hopeful his words would be enough but naive to think he could trick Poseidon Which made Poseidon feel insulted that Odysseus thought he was that dumb and the fact Odysseus worked for Athena who doesn’t have a good relationship with Poseidon
I see a lot of people talking about how Odysseus decided to try and justify his actions instead of apologizing, and therefore caused Posidon to sink the fleet. Some people think that the punishment would have been less severe if Odysseus just sucked it up and apologized. Well, not necessarily. If you think about it, Posiden's whole thing was teaching Odysseus that "Ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves." If you look at Posiden's next line after Odysseus makes his justification, "The line between naivety and hopefulness is almost invisible", he's calling Odysseus naive for still believing that any form of apology or justification would cause Posidon to be merciful, especially after everything Posidon had just ranted about. So he was gonna sink the fleet either way.
The 'Horse and The Infant' animatic you watched was actually based on the remade version of the first song; I believe Jorge wasn't getting any revenue from the first versions of both the Troy and Cyclops sagas thanks to the record company he produced them under, so he just decided to completely remake them under his own company 44:30 I think anniflamma's inspiration for the horse was actually Mandella Catelogue, with the creepy eyes and teeth
Love anniflamma’s ruthlessness cause it also pulls from the very first incarnations of what Poseidon was cause in Mycenae he was know to ferry the dead as a horse and that the earliest version we can speculate was a horse that brought storms as they moved
Imagine if Odysseus tried to use his wit and guile with Scylla like he did with Poseidon. If he somehow rolled a Nat 20 on a Persuasion check, he'd be able to get back to Ithaca and stay safe, because Scylla is so scary that while in Epic, Poseidon fears her, the actual Scylla scares ALL of the gods. She's terrifying.
"I am your darkest moment. The monster that always draws near" I feel like that line is more of a constant present than the active present. Like, even if he escapes, Poseidon will always be right over his shoulder growing ever closer. He can't escape forever.
I don't know when exactly this was recorded but I'm assuming you've heard since that the next saga is coming out at the end of the month. Have you given any thoughts on how you are going to react to it since it'll be a bit before the animatics come out? Like are you gonna wait for them or are you just gonna do the music?
@@Airier Jorge usually does a live stream with partial animatics (and full lyrics) for the new songs on release night but he takes it down afterwards cause leaving it up can hurt the streaming numbers, I know Mortius got permission to use the Thunder Saga one for his reaction, he just had to emphasize to people to go stream the originals, idk if they are giving permission to everyone who asks but might be worth a shot
@@Airier If you're going to wait for the animatics, be sure to check the dates they are uploaded, since there's already some going around with the snippets and demo versions of the songs
"And they're pushing the Penelope button." It _is_ Zeus's favorite button. Remember "Thunderbringer"? Someone speculated that he projected the image of Penelope to further torture Odysseus.
So real quick. Jorge does a real good job in using the way people sing the lyrics to portray feelings and influence between characters. In Warrior of the Mind, Athena when singing by herself sings "warrior of the mind," singing "mind" in one continuous note. Odysseus joins in next sings the same phrase, but "mind" goes from this high note and lowers. Then together they both sing "mind" with Athena following along with Odysseus showing the effect that he's had on her. And then now in "My Goodbye" that is shown again when she is repeating "This is my goodbye," over and over, NOTICE!! and this animatic points it out with her facial expressions. She at one point sings "Goodbye" starting high and going lower, showing Odysseus's influence. She recognizes it and then goes back to singing the way she normally would, in what I think is an act of defiance. She is trying to let go of Odysseus through her singing! And that's just so cool to notice.
To be fair, there was no way for Odysseus to know Polyphemus was Poseidons child. Also he spared the cyclops as a lesson from Polites. Even though the cyclops acted violently, Odysseus chose to show mercy. Also, there's nothing in the songs that say Odysseus enjoyed it. They needed to blind him so he would get up and away from the cave entrance. If not, the giant cyclops corpse would keep them trapped in the cave
15:34 The OP had an animatic of "Warrior of the Mind" where Athena GAVE Odysseus those bracers to Odysseus, so by taking them off and stomping on them here, Odysseus is severing ties with Athena.
I still stand by that the Odyssey is actually the crew's fault more than Odysseus himself, since they'd probably be home right after the Cyclops if only they didn't open the wind bag
I think Odysseus being tied to the ship in mircsy's animatic of Keep Your Friends Close is not part of the betrayal but him tying himself to the steering (stick?) so they won't go off course if he falls asleep because he doesn't trust anyone else with steering the ship, just as he doesn't trust anyone else with the bag. And that is also just an amazing visualisation of how he literally tied himself down and got in his own way by not trusting his crew.
The ruthless one is so creepy cus you cant see their face its like its saying that the real face of a god is something we humans cant comprehend and we only see what they allow us to see also if you look closely where posiedon was saying that odessyus could have avoided him if he killed him you see him hold a baby and drop it it's a throwback to odessyus killing the infant in the troy saga
Fun fact: the request for an apology was a ruse to get Odysseus to confess his crimes... hence, ruthlessness would have saved him from losing so many men at the end
final goodbye is a fight between two friends/mentor and student that gets progressively more rough, progressively more violent as the argument goes on by both sides until finally Odysseus says "YOU'RE ALONE" and I feel that is captured beautifully by the animatic with the sword cutting Athena's hair, the tears splashing onto her face. Because in this instance Odysseus knows he's on a self destructive path and feels so alone. And he doesn't know what to do. And that terrifies him. And the end of the song is both of them realising "There is no saving this now."
Incase you didn't know Jorge likes to give characters a instrument that represents them. Depending on the context the type of instrument changes. Alongside this the more electronic & distorted the music gets the closer to the gods it is. Its really noticable in thunderbringer as Odysseus's instrument is the guitar and it becomes electric as he makes his choice. I believe Athena's is a piano qhich we hear at the end. She never stopped watching him.
the main and pretty much only major difference between the odyssey and epic is the lesson that "ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves" so everything is mainly the exact same but its affected by odyseuses outlook on being ruthless for personal mercy
Some things i LOVE about annis ruthless animatic is: Ody's eyes disappearing when it shifts to poseidons lines at the end- i always interpreted this as showing that poseidon views everyine as blanke chips vs individuals because it makes being ruthless easier when you have no empathy. This also leads nicely into poseidon closing his eyes and looking up paired with yhe "so close your heart" lines Also the later scene of the full black screen behind ody and just poseidons glowing eyes looking at him + the background chorus of "when does a man become a monster"- just like ugh the story telling in yhis animatic is so good because what i said above is LITERALLY the answer to that question and something arguably all the gods have to do because for one they arent (mortal) men byt also the other implications (not to mention the line at the beginning of the song "i live without a choice" Also my personal interpretation of the apology scene has always been that the apology is pointless regardless- whether ody apologized or not changed nothing. Which is why the line says "the line between hopefullness and naivety is almost invisible" hits so hard- is ody being hopeful attemping to apologize or is it pure naivety to even try? I think its more that poseidon is disgusted over ody doing either honestly
So happy to see you react to these added animatics! There's way more, if you look for animatics for any of the songs on your own you'll have hours of fun waiting for you!
The bit of the horse crashing into the water is like…. A direct reference to the clip of Spirit Stallion of the Cimmaron jumping into the water to save Rain
A lot of people hate on eurylochus, especially for the wind bag. But i think mircxy really captures why eurylochus might have caved to the will of the crew and opened it. like not "because hes stupid, or greedy" but he doesnt trust Odysseus cause odysseus doesnt place any trust back. We see Eurylochus approach an exausted Ody, whos prolly been awake just guarding that bag for days already. He tries to get him tot restt and just let his second in command help him, and is returned with just Ody screaming and snapping at him. Like Througout the story its shown time and time again, that Odysseus just doesnt hold faith in Eurylochus, and eurylochus loses trus in return to the increasingly disttant and eratic Ody.
Neo or Neoptolemus, originally called Pyrrhus at birth, was the son of the warrior Achilles and the princess Deidamia, and the brother of Oneiros. He became the mythical progenitor of the ruling dynasty of the Molossians of ancient Epirus.
26:00 What I think is implied here, is that Eurylochus tells Odysseus like "Captain, you haven't slept for 4 days. I'll keep the bag safe so you can go rest" but Odysseus is having none of it, lashing out like Frodo did to Sam.
13:30 That's not canon. The only wound he inflicts on Athena is to her pride. Honestly, that alone is "Why are you not dead?" vibes, considering Arachne disrespected Athena less, and got turned into a SPIDER. Odysseus got off easy.
Epic Poseidon doesn't have regrets. He doesn't care what he has to do to be "respected" by mortals. Quotation marks because respect out of fear is not respect. Respect is earned.
You didn’t notice when Poseidon was holding the water like a baby and talking about his son he dropped the water like Odysseus did to the infant that’s why face was animated that way.
Something I haven’t seen anyone mention, Eurylochus has been pessimistic from the beginning on them making it home- he was the one to sow seeds of dissent in the crew, and when he rips into Odysseus after Scylla about running away, he brought up running away first during Circe
Zeus did have the head of Medusa on his chest. After she was decapitated and after Perseus' adventures I believe it goes to the gods somehow and it is made into a shield called the aegis which is a symbol of both Zeus and Athena :3 Love your reactions! I hadn't seen a bunch of these animatics myself so nice to bring attention to them!
I noticed. That the lotus eater had the flower plucked from its head. Freeing it from the lotus addiction and turning it into a winnion. Maybe its a way of showing it died. Cause if you think. Lotus takes ahold. And they wouldnt have fed the little friend what its grown accustomed to. So it was starving in a way
While I enjoy seeing different interpretations of the apology given by Odysseus; whether it's an excuse, a lie, not actually an apology, or whatever; these ignore the song's main message and what Poseiden is saying(IMO). Ruthlessness is mercy, even if Odysseus gave the most genuine apology of all time it wouldn't have mattered if Poseidon accepted it and spared him it would go completely against what he's trying to tell Odysseus, that ruthlessness is mercy. I interpret the following line after the apology as Poseidon calling out Odysseus for being either naive enough, hopeful enough, or both to actually think that would work and he has to repeat his message, "The line between naïveté and hopefulness is almost invisible. So close your heart, the world dark and ruthlessness is mercy". So my interpretation is that it was never about the apology but more so that Odysseus still doesn't understand what Poseidon is saying.
39:40 It's open to whatever you interpret it - but for me it's how Poseidon did give Odysseus chance to be more than an average men (to be worthy of putting himself among gods), but Odysseus doesn't measure up. So it's both Odysseus naively thinking his tricks that worked on humans would work on a god, BUT ALSO Poseidon naively thiking a human might measure up to gods. It's especialy fitting with him hating 'Greeks with false sense of righteousness' and Poseidon closing his own EYES as he sings about it. So Odysseus blend in with the rest of his 'common men' crew.
Why didn't Athena just outright tell Odysseus whose son he just blinded? Honestly, if he knew he had injured the son of Poseidon, even he wouldn't be stupid enough to leave a victim that could identify him.
If you're interested there are 2 animatics by Neal Illustrator that made Thunderbringer and Ruthlessness. Both have the gods being larger than life but Ruthlessness has Poseidon just pissed off, no smiling to happily beat him down just absolute fury
39:02 probably for the best while i still stand firm he did apologize this is posidon and apology or not the whole point of the song is he was 100% not gonna spare ody cause ruthlessnss is mercy upon ourselves So its like "you really thought id do that?"
28:35 I love how you can hear athena try and tell him. To wake up, Begging and pleqding for him to wake up. But she had no control over him anymore. He gave that up.
As a dad im 100% with Posseidon on this 1. Someone breaks into your sons house, kills his friends/pets for food, lies to him, drugs and blinds him, and then has the audacity to give him a lecture telling him his name, thinking he wont take responsability for his actions. And then the little shit dares to go, ooooh we didnt enjoy doing that... Yeah Ruthlesness it is then.
25:09 I think the one in the back is Aeolus disguising themself as a crewman (to fan the flames of thise rumors ykno, gotta "give the fire enough to stay burning") which greek gods were known to do to mess with mortals lol, fun detail
As another reactor said, I love that every animator has universally decided that in the second verse of Ruthlessness, Poseidon is physically beating the crap out of Odysseus. No ocean waves, no giant horse form, just putting hands on him. Poseidon, ironically, is teaching Odysseus the lesson that Athena couldn't; if you throw your name and location around as a challenge, someone will take it.
👀
@@officialmortius Well, you started it
@@officialmortius 👀
@@officialmortius 👀👀 guess who started it
Which reactor said that?
Gigi's Poseidon gives off a disappointed angry Grandfather feel and this one has always felt more God about to mess your shit up and enjoy every second of it.
OmL… why did u have to go and change my perception of Gigi’s? I loved both anyway, but that’s all I see now.
Funny, my interpretation of them is a total flip of that. Gigi's seemed like he was enjoying himself way more, where as Ani's definitely enjoyed it, but seemed way more disappointed in Oddy than anything else.
i'd say the difference is this poseidon feels more scary in a way and feels more like a VILLAIN in his portrayal. He's here to crush Odysseus' idealism and make him SUFFER and RELISH in that suffering for DARING to try and be 'good'.
Fun fact about Poseidon:
Zeus got the sky, Hades the underworld. Poseidon got everything in between.
With that in mind : Sea , earthquakes and horses make sense belonging to the same god .
He's also the God of Storms
And back in Mycaenaean Greece, Poseidon was king of the gods, and had everything Hades had domain over, Hades didn't exist yet, and Zeus was just a minor sky god.
Well Poseidon better start paying taxes if he has my house
Pretty sure Poseidon just got the sea, he makes earthquakes with his trident which specifically has that ability, not sure where the horses comes from, can't remember.
Whilst Zeus got the sky, Hades got the underworld and Poseidon got the sea, the gods didn't know who should get the earth so they decided neither got it (Poseidon is not the god of the hills and mountains after all)
@@a.i.1328 I don't know if this came before or after Poseidon became the god of horses as well, but I remember a story where Poseidon and Athena were competing to be the patron deity of Athens. Athena offered the olive and the olive tree, and Poseidon's gift changes based on the version. In some, he creates lakes, ponds, rivers, and even fountains; while, in others, he created the chariot. That is the first instance I know of that Poseidon has gotten involved with horses.
With that my goodbye, as its ending... She keeps repeating herself, and then staring at him... Like she's looking for a sign. Waiting for him to turn back, like she never thought he'd actually walk away.
In the previous animatic Athena "won" the argument, with Odysseus standing their when Athena leaves. While in Mircsy's one Odysseus "won" because he is walking away while Athena screams after him.
Also, in that scene, with the "this is my goodbye", repeated three times, it seems like she is trying to get the same melodies as in "warrior of the mind", but failing because she doesn't have Odysseus anymore.
espeically with the remake of this song making athena sound more just emotional and the context from the live streams help alot xD
@@damiennightmaresx7950 what's is the context from the livestreams?
@@skiga specifically the remakes of this saga athena sounds more hurt plus jorge even haas a after ody says "YOUR ALONE!" in the pause theirs a little subtitle for "this hurts athena" and the vocal performancee for athena's next line is more sorrowful instead of the heated agument this version goes
“Oh that lines worse!” “It hurts so much more the second time.” Yeah that’s how I’ve learned Jorge is such a lyricist and knows exactly where his version of the Odyssey wants to go. Really hope we get like an animated duology some day
Most people think of apologies as modern day ones where you say, "I am sorry" and basically beg for forgiveness.
Odysseus was doing the apologies Greeks from their time period would.
The Greek word apologia (ἀπολογία) means "speaking in defense" and is derived from the prefix apo-, which means "away from," and the word logia, which comes from the Greek word lógos, meaning "speech". In Latin, apologia is translated as apology.
Basically you would do what Odysseus did, express your sympathies while also explaining yourself to the best of your abilities while remaining respectful.
If the offended part accepts the apologia then everything was well. If not well... Poseidon is a good enough answer.
The "ruthlesness is mercy" was also very Greek. Be a monster to everyone who is NOT your family, friend, or ally. If someone harms them? Pay it back in a mountain of bl00d, pain, and suff€ring.
Which is what Poseidon did.
There is absolutely NO WAY for Odysseus to ever pay back Poseidon for the harm he caused. That cyclops is crippled which was seen as a great disgracs & embarassment back then.
It would have been the truly honorable to simply k×ll him back then as now his son will be reliant on the generosity of his fellow cyclops.
The monster races were seen as lesser than. The k×lling of him wouldn't have angered Poseidon.
But what DOES anger him? Not honoring his words to dedicate their win to Poseidon in the battle of Troy. Not praying to him for a safe journey home. Not worshipping Poseidon but Athena despite Ithica being a seafaring kingdom. And MOST CERTAINLY?
Crippling his child, using a fake name while showing "mercy", mocking him again with his real name once he got angry, leaving him with his real name as a punishment, d0xxing his home address--all while KNOWING he was Poseidon's son.
The frequent disrespect and basically calling Poseidon out to 1v1 him in Greek terms.
But lets not forget Odysseus is stuck with an idiot crew in the canon story. 😒 Tbf I am team Odysseus after reading the book. Do I condone everything Odysseus does? No, but I certainly wouldn't judge him.
… Thanks for the historical context, M8. A lot of the cultural subtext like these can be lost to a modern audience who has a different world view then those before us. >):^]
You worded that so much better than I could have. I won't get into whether Odysseus was being merciful or cruel and mocking, because I've had that discussion way too many times. But I would like to correct you on one minor detail. While in the Odyssey he does know Polyphemus is Poseidon's son, in EPIC he doesn't know until Poseidon reveals it. "That's right, the cyclops you made blind is mine." "No..." That said, I admire the knowledge you have on Greek customs and can tell you're very familiar with the Odyssey outside of modern retellings.
I'm putting a comment just so I can easily find this one again.
Not only that but in the book I’m quite certain that they were ill equity to kill Polyphemus. They were stuck in the cave for days watching their comrades being eaten, that does thing to your morals and they needed Polyphemus to open the cave (boulder blocked the entrance) so they drugged and blinded him to make the escape easier and then they hid under the sheeps while the other cycles came to investigate. There wasn’t really any time to kill him, especially not with all the other Cyclopes. The name thing though…. I guess after watching his men being eaten alive he wanted to gloat.
Yeah i never understood why some thought ody didnt apologies
I love how you understood each animatic differently specially ruthlessness. But something that gives me te impression that Odysseus is once again just lying is the smile right at the end of the "apology" For me it seems a lot like a "oof, I saved everything again" smile
This, exactly. That little smirk of Ody's is what sold me on Anni's version: it's subtle, but absolutely effective.
I disagree I feel like that's a specialty thing as what counts as a apology changes and now people won't allow you to explain yourself when back then explaining yourself was the apology
@siramaytheshowgundragon except he's not explaining himself, He's lieing through his teeth to save himself from trouble.
Plus the old use of apologia was mainly supposed to be used in a legal defence, and even then in our main source for it's use (plato's apology) it points out this kind of apology didn't work even back then since Socrates attempts at justification rather than expressing remorse were unsuccessful and led to his death.
@@matthewmac5787 man why you gotta argue with me such rudeness very rude! he is explaining himself though its not a lie and how dare you imply it is "we meant no harm" he didnt he just wanted food and thought it was empty when he saw it belong to someone he wanted to make a trade, "we only hurt him to disarm him" thats what they did they would have all died if they did it "took no pleasure in pain" he didn't despite what some say he was going to leave but then Athena pushed him to make it a teaching momment unintentional he only wanted to escape he apologized and tried to explain himself dont be a jerk
To me, it looks more like a nervous smile. Like, "Okay, I did what you asked. That means we're cool now...right?"
And that's where Poseidon's line comes in. The line between Odysseus displaying hopefulness (believing that he's able to make everything right with his words) and naiveté (failing to understand what Poseidon has been talking about the entire time) is almost invisible. In other words, if he'd just listened to Poseidon and paid attention, he would have known that a mere apology was never going to make things right, and maybe he could have at least saved his men by accepting his own death.
I maintain that the true theme of the musical isn't "ruthlessness is mercy on ourselves", but rather "the blood on your hands is something you won't lose, all you can choose is whose", because whenever Odysseus makes a major choice, that's what it comes down to. The infant prince, or his family? The cyclops, or his crew? His crew, or himself? Every step of the way, he's having to choose who has to suffer, who has to die, and every time he tries not to choose it just makes things worse. The only time things work out for him is when he's resolute, and he makes his decision no matter how hard it is.
Considering Jorge said the theme is Ruthlesness... I don't know man, I kinda side with the guy who wrote it all more.
But to be fair, what you see as the theme is still ruthelessness, I mean "choose whose blood is on your hands" is a ruthless line on it's own 😂
Also Poseidon cradling a baby and dropping it while saying that Odysseus could've avoided his wrath if he had just killed the cyclops, a real nice touch in terms of ruthlessness being mercy to one's self
35:57 Oh! Look a baby! Some may call it an Infant.
STOP😭😭
In Ruthlessness, it is easy to blame Ody once more for trying to find a loophole and talk down Posiedon instead of actually apologizing to him.
But my question is... Would an apology actually even matter?
Imagine for a second that Odysseus genuinely apologized, and went:- "I'm really sorry, Wet Hades, for having blinded your son. I am truly remorseful and I promise to never do it again!"
Would Posiedon have actually forgiven him then? I don't think so... Cause that would be an act of *mercy*. And we already know what his stance is on that!
You could make the argument that, the Greek mentality was being kind to your allies and horrible to your foes, and Odysseus actually apologizing would make him not a foe anymore.. But I don't think so
The way I look at it is that if he actually get on his knees and truly made an apology to Poseidon then only Odysseus would’ve been drowned. I do not know whether that would’ve been only his ship or only him specifically. The reason I think this is because polytheist would have told his father that it was Odysseus who blinded and wounded him. So beside only actually needs to punish Odysseus himself. The rest of the crew and the fleet of ships. Poseidon, could care less about those. If anything because Odysseus didn’t give a true apology, Poseidon sunk his fleet and killed those 558 men to prove the point to Odysseus that he was not making an apology. He was not taking responsibility. He was trying to avoid the consequences of his actions. Which led to the death of almost all of his crew that he had fought in the Trojan war with for six years. And had he not escaped with the windbag Then all of them would’ve died right then in there.
@@dragon44048 Damned if you do, and damned if you don't 💀💀💀 Never thought of it like that, that Posiedon would have *solely* blamed Ody and taken his life as compensation for blinding his son. It's certainly an interesting perspective--and it kinda relates to 'Thunder Bringer' where Zeus asks him to choose between his life or the lives of his crew. There he made the choice willingly, but here he may have accidentally made the same choice--his arrogance/attempt to outwit Posiedon made him make an example of Ody's crew; but simultaneously giving him the opening to escape himself!
Indeed. The entire point of the song was that mercy is a weakness. The best response that he could have given would have been to immediately demand an ordeal, or offer a major sacrifice to make up for it. While it may not necessarily have worked, it had better chances than apologising and proving that he hadn't actually learned what Poseidon just spent the entire song trying to teach him. He even said it outright - "but before you go I need to make you learn how Ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves!"
Nah, Poseidon wouldn't have let them go peacefully no matter what, the lyric _"the line between naivity and hopefulness, is almost invisible"_ is basically telling us, that Ody (love that nickname) is naive for actually thinking that there is a way to get out.
I always interpreted Odysseus' apology as not an apology, but justification. I think he's genuine. He wanted to escape, he didn't want a fight, he just wanted to feed his crew so they could get home.
But he never says sorry. He is given a chance by Poseidon to apologize, and instead of doing so, he gets on his high horse to the highest of all horses. NO word of Odysseus' was an apology. It was him trying to write away his violence towards Polyphemus with soft words while accepting no fault.
let's be real posiedon wasn't gonna let him go with an apology he's messing around poseidon is a prick
The word Sorry being a meaningful apology is not really a concept you can apply to most place in the ancient world, especially so in ancient Greece where an eye for an eye was the morality of many city states. In that context that many places valued reparation and retribution action over any word saying sorry is literally often seen as a mark of incinserity and trying to minimize or dodge retribution.
@@marley7868 right but maybe the punishment wouldn't have been as severe. He'd still get his pound of flesh but perhaps he'd be more patient of them.
@@boxtank5288 you do not know posiedeon he is a bastard even the greeks didn't like him and they liked zeus
@@boxtank5288
Well, not necessarily. If you think about it, Posiden's whole thing was teaching Odysseus that "Ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves." If you look at Posiden's next line after Odysseus makes his justification, "The line between naivety and hopefulness is almost invisible", he's calling Odysseus naive for still believing that any form of apology or justification would cause Posidon to be merciful, especially after everything Posidon had just ranted about. So he was gonna sink the fleet either way.
Horse God Poseidon is a GOD. I love that he isn't just a stereotypical sea monster, that he's harnessed (pun not intended) the majesty and danger of his domains. And the tie in of horse imagery with Odysseus using a horse to invade Troy, dropping the shadow infant, like he's being reminded even then that he has to be ruthless and that he WAS ruthless at the start of the musical... it's just so brilliant. So, so brilliant, and horse Poseidon will always be my favourite Poseidon for that reason.
In this version of ruthlessness Posidon feels like he is making a statement. An apology wont help. If i let you go now everyone else will think they can mess with me. You need to understand that you need to follow through on your acts and to make sure that you are have the position of power that people wont mess with you in the future
Anniflamma Ruthlessness sighted let's go!!! Gigi's Ruthlessness is very good, but something about Anniflamma's just hits so well. Poseidon's understated design and horse motifs, kinda implying how people underestimate the ocean and the seas, the motion and flow feel a bit tighter, and I just feel like it overall better represents Poseidon. So glad you decided to check out alternate animatics as there are so many good ones out there. If you decide to do more I HIGHLY recommend Neal Illustrator's Thunder Bringer as being a top tier animatic. Really only thing stopping it from being the definitive Thunder Bringer is it doesn't take place on a boat, but everything else just makes up for it in droves.
I would love to sea Neal redo that animatic just on a boat. It wouldn't even take that much alteration work given how much of the animatic is just Zeus in the clouds and close ups of the crew.
They go all out with Ruthlessness, it’s my personal favorite.
Their new ruthlessness one is bloody beautiful
No one ever seems to talk about tamatama's Ruthlessness animatic, which makes me sad, since it's one of my absolute favorites! I love how the Poseidon in it is mostly just dismissive and "here to teach these ants their lesson", he isn't truly wrathful or gleeful about what he's doing, he's more... disappointed? Wanting to deal with an annoyance? And he is the water itself, he shapes from and dissolves into the waves constantly. Not to mention, literally shaping a terrifying and inescapable boss arena from the waves and then breaking the ships with a forest of water cyclones :D I love Gigi, Anni and Neal's versions, but tamatama's just speaks to my soul in some way xD
@@elieli2893 oooo thank you, that is a fantastic animatic.
Fun easy way to remember Eurylochus's name "you-really-cussed?" and drop the -ed and you have it.
Why add the "ed" when you're just going to drop it? "you-really-cuss" is a grammatically correct sentence too.
CF reacts?
I see Divine Sugar Mama's made its rounds here too 🤣
😭😭😭
@@officialmortiusyou can’t escape it mortius, *you will never escape it*
@@officialmortius hey, at least he said that he loves it. It's gotta be better than "Wet Hades" 😝
The ancient Greek godhead is Zeus, deity of the sky, clouds, lightning, thunder, and generally just weather; however, the Mycenean Greeks (the far older variant) saw their godhead as Poseidon who was the Earth-shaker, the ocean king, and even the deity of the underworld. When Poseidon was godhead, Zeus was just his brother while Hades didn't even exist as a deity whatsoever. It's pretty interesting that the ancient Greeks are of the sky and climbing into the heavens while the more archaic Greeks saw greater power with death and the lowering into an abyss.
Something I love about the Odyssey is that Odysseus's troubles come from the need to balance hubris, pride that is considered excessive, with the need for "kleos", which roughly translates to "glory" or "reputation". For Odysseus and other heroes of this era, kleos is the ultimate virtue. Everything from great deeds to material wealth to a secured legacy contributes to kleos, which is why on the way home to Ithaca Odysseus often engages in raids and piracy. He's worried that because his legacy isn't secure, since he hasn't been able to return to his wife and son, his kleos is diminishing, so he HAS to do these stupid/courageous things. The incident with Polyphemus is a classic example of an attempt to build kleos, because Odysseus attaches his name to the defeat (or so he thinks) of a great foe. Of course, this strays into hubris, but that's the dichotomy that exists in all Greek myth when it comes to its heroes. And because kleos passes from father to son, Telemachus's efforts to find his father later in the Odyssey come from both a desire to bring him home, and from a desire to build his own kleos by finding out what Odysseus's fate is. This is also why the suitors are considered so vile, because they're abusing the laws of hospitality to both attack Odysseus's family AND deprive his household of its wealth. It's a very "Bronze Age" mindset, and it's what I love so much about this story. Everyone thinks very differently, but their motivations are still ultimately sympathetic to modern audiences. (Also fun fact, "kleos" forms the root of Heracles's name. It is literally "Hera Kles", or "Glory to Hera", since Heracles was named that to try and avoid attracting Hera's wrath. It didn't work, but it was a good effort!)
Genuinely, GENUINELY thank you for reacting to Anniflamma's Ruthlessness and posting it here!
I love this current reaction craze of epic, but a part that was hard to swallow was that anni's animatic (The one that pretty much got me Into Epic) was either not reacted to at all, or was reacted to but it was behind a paywall.
I've gotten over it as time has gone on, but every time now that someone does give a reaction, I just get a noticable surge of happiness.
Thank you! And glad to see you enjoy this story of very flawed people.
The great comedy is that Athena lets him go when really it would be far more in character for her to smite him for injuring her. The fact she allowed herself to get injured, and him to leave, shows she genuinely cares. Although, deities have a different kind of emotional extremes and limits, they don't feel the same way humans do.
Annifamma's Ruthlessness is how I discovered epic the musical, so it's really nice seeing been appreciated.
I can see Athena, being the goddess of wisdom, tolerating Odysseus talking back to her and insulting her. Hovewer, I feel like if Odysseus actually tried to kill her, the song would end the moment he throws his sword at her owl form and the story would skip straight to the "Underworld Saga". Gods in greek myths don't just take such disrespect and calmly leave :D
Diomedes tried to kill apollo 3 time before apollo threatened him. He didn't kill him though.
Diomedes struck down both Aphrodite _and_ Ares
Zeus’s chest with the head of Medusa might be a reference to his shield, Aegis. It’s also used as a symbol of Athena.
"Thank you for uploading, Airier" we all say in unison
Oh my word THANK YOU for reacting to Anniflamma's Ruthlessness! They worked SO insanely hard on it (I followed their WIPS on tiktok), and it needs so much more love. Like, Gigi's is also super good, but Anniflamma's Poseidon is just SO cool imo. I'm so glad you also showed your reaction to it. And no matter what one feels about Poseidon's motivations, Odysseus still gets the tar beat out of him XD;
Here's my take about Poseidan's verse. When he says that the line between naivete and hopefulness being nearly invisible, he is referring to how hard it is to verify if trusting someone's apology (or whatever it was Odysseus tried) who has wronged you is the right call or not. He then follows up with "So close your heart, the world is dark" before ending it with "ruthlessness is mercy" to say that just don't take anything they say, and spare yourself the regrets by not taking any chances.
Whether Odysseus was being sincere or not, Poseidon doesn't care. He doesn't want to take any chances so he doesn't have to suffer making the mistake of letting Odysseus go.
around 40:00 I've always interpreted "The line between naivete and hopefulness is almost invisible" being about Odysseus confessing to his crime for a small hope of survival. He could've claimed that he got the wrong ship, or that it wasn't them that did it, that someone else was trying to frame them. But he confessed that it was them, for the hope that Poseidon would forgive them, being naive to think he would take an apology like that.
And "Unless of course you apologize for my sons pain" to me has always felt like Poseidon playing with Ody. After that entire song, how would anyone think he would be merciful? Really? It really is calling Ody naive for thinking an apology would change anything. And the people that claim "Ody never said sorry in those lines, if only" Dude! Poseidon is making fun of you too! lol
I love Anniflamma's take on Ruthlessness. Poseidon referencing the infant at Troy to mock Odysseus by droping the dark water. The fact that you could see a frame of Odysseus getting angry as Poseidon manhandles him but can still nothing as he drags him around by the hair, Poseidon telling Odysseus he is his darkest moment while in his horse form. Talking about not only this moment but also referencing Troy. And the fact when Poseidon finally begins destroying Odysseus is just a helpless to the waves as the rest of his crew.
I feel the reason for "The line between naivety and hopefulness is almost invisible" after the apology is directly applied to Odysseus for believing Poseidon actually would forgive him with an apology. Poseidon spends the whole time beating "ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves" into Odysseus and it was very much a moment of "Have you listened to a single word I said?". I highly doubt even a perfect apology from Odysseus would have been granted any forgiveness, especially after the entire theme of the song. So the "apologize" part was literally a popquiz/trick question lmao
11:17 "This is his breakup with the Divine Sugar Mama." I love that I'm encountering a phrase coined by Mortius on a completely different reactor's channel. 😂
He has gotten so big that Luke Holt is a fan of his reactions with Casper Fox. LUKE HOLT, the voice of Zeus himself! It's awesome seeing him interact with the cast on Tik Tok.
Not so fun fact, the land of the giants also means the land of the Laestrygonions (man eating giants) meaning Odysseus's men werent just killed but also eaten afterwards
I need you to go back to Anniflamma's Ruthlessness: right after Poseidon stomps on the ship "i mean, you totally could have avoided all this if you just killed my son".
Poseidon is cradling an Infant shaped blob.
"...but ~nO~"
Poseidon drops the Infant blob.
Ouch! Please tell me I'm not the only one that noticed this call back to Just A Man. The implied 'you did it once, what was one more time?'
"He will burn your house and throne. He'll find you wherever you go." has the same melody as "He will chase you high and low, so find a place he'd never go." from "Suffering".
This Poseidon ain't horsing around.
When you can see that one of these artists actively read the poems and didnt just listen to the songs... so it hits so much harder. 😆
I think posiden is calling Odysseus naive for thinking apologizing would actually work
or that it wasn't even a good apology anad he still thought that would work. He didn't even said sorry
I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing the Beserk-ness of the horse
RIGHT!!!?
I super suggest watching all of aniflamma's videos because they're honestly amazing. The designs, animation, and choreography are all so incredible. Definitely a favorite
YEA! That's exactly what it feels like to watch the reactions. This is the first animatic I've seen that is also paired with the new re recording
Something worth noting is that Odysseus never properly apologizes. No "I'm sorry", no "I apologize", no "You're right, I made a mistake, sorry".
He just begins trying to justify his actions to Poseidon.
Poseidon's next line is "the line between naivete and hopefulness is almost invisible" Poseidon is calling him naive for thinking an apology would be enough so it does not matter weather he truly apologized or not.
@@QelerQr yup it was pointless to apologize
@@QelerQr yes it was pointless but had he apologised properly he too could have run to hermes and cry about how Poseidon bullied him even tho he clearly said sowwy for the oopsie he made(Hermes is Odysseus's ancestor)
@@Ashishgchhetrito be fair, I don’t think Hermes could’ve done anything. Hermes is an Olympian god, yes, but he’s way younger than Poseidon and doesn’t have as powerful as a realm. Poseidon is much more elemental, what with his control over the seas and earthquakes. Hermes is the god of individuals like travelers and tricksters - even when Hermes *did* try to help Odysseus, it was to go against a much more minor goddess like Circe.
Odysseus was hopeful his words would be enough but naive to think he could trick Poseidon
Which made Poseidon feel insulted that Odysseus thought he was that dumb and the fact Odysseus worked for Athena who doesn’t have a good relationship with Poseidon
I see a lot of people talking about how Odysseus decided to try and justify his actions instead of apologizing, and therefore caused Posidon to sink the fleet. Some people think that the punishment would have been less severe if Odysseus just sucked it up and apologized. Well, not necessarily. If you think about it, Posiden's whole thing was teaching Odysseus that "Ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves." If you look at Posiden's next line after Odysseus makes his justification, "The line between naivety and hopefulness is almost invisible", he's calling Odysseus naive for still believing that any form of apology or justification would cause Posidon to be merciful, especially after everything Posidon had just ranted about. So he was gonna sink the fleet either way.
The 'Horse and The Infant' animatic you watched was actually based on the remade version of the first song; I believe Jorge wasn't getting any revenue from the first versions of both the Troy and Cyclops sagas thanks to the record company he produced them under, so he just decided to completely remake them under his own company
44:30 I think anniflamma's inspiration for the horse was actually Mandella Catelogue, with the creepy eyes and teeth
Love anniflamma’s ruthlessness cause it also pulls from the very first incarnations of what Poseidon was cause in Mycenae he was know to ferry the dead as a horse and that the earliest version we can speculate was a horse that brought storms as they moved
Imagine if Odysseus tried to use his wit and guile with Scylla like he did with Poseidon. If he somehow rolled a Nat 20 on a Persuasion check, he'd be able to get back to Ithaca and stay safe, because Scylla is so scary that while in Epic, Poseidon fears her, the actual Scylla scares ALL of the gods. She's terrifying.
I really hope Neal's Thunder Bringer is on that playlist. It's amazing and they're almost done making their own version of Ruthlessness.
Poseidon is the God of the Sea, but also the God of Horses. That’s why him being portrayed as a giant kelpie makes sense.
"I am your darkest moment. The monster that always draws near"
I feel like that line is more of a constant present than the active present. Like, even if he escapes, Poseidon will always be right over his shoulder growing ever closer. He can't escape forever.
34:50 something that you didn’t point out but I love in this animatic is Poseidon’s toga being the Ocean
Gigi just made their version of ther Sctlla song three days ago and it's good
I don't know when exactly this was recorded but I'm assuming you've heard since that the next saga is coming out at the end of the month. Have you given any thoughts on how you are going to react to it since it'll be a bit before the animatics come out? Like are you gonna wait for them or are you just gonna do the music?
Not sure. I'd like to wait for that animatics, but I'm also not sure I have enough self restraint to do so.
@@Airier Jorge usually does a live stream with partial animatics (and full lyrics) for the new songs on release night but he takes it down afterwards cause leaving it up can hurt the streaming numbers, I know Mortius got permission to use the Thunder Saga one for his reaction, he just had to emphasize to people to go stream the originals, idk if they are giving permission to everyone who asks but might be worth a shot
@@AirierI mean there are already some animatics for gods game idk
@@Airier If you're going to wait for the animatics, be sure to check the dates they are uploaded, since there's already some going around with the snippets and demo versions of the songs
I would say to wait for the animatics to maximize both the understanding of what's going on and the amount of emotions
Jorge has the people and gods work on the old morality meanwhile Ody is starting to be of a more modern morality.
"And they're pushing the Penelope button." It _is_ Zeus's favorite button. Remember "Thunderbringer"? Someone speculated that he projected the image of Penelope to further torture Odysseus.
So real quick. Jorge does a real good job in using the way people sing the lyrics to portray feelings and influence between characters. In Warrior of the Mind, Athena when singing by herself sings "warrior of the mind," singing "mind" in one continuous note. Odysseus joins in next sings the same phrase, but "mind" goes from this high note and lowers. Then together they both sing "mind" with Athena following along with Odysseus showing the effect that he's had on her. And then now in "My Goodbye" that is shown again when she is repeating "This is my goodbye," over and over, NOTICE!! and this animatic points it out with her facial expressions. She at one point sings "Goodbye" starting high and going lower, showing Odysseus's influence. She recognizes it and then goes back to singing the way she normally would, in what I think is an act of defiance. She is trying to let go of Odysseus through her singing! And that's just so cool to notice.
5:00 Why was I thinking you were gonna say "Oh, goddamn, his chest hair!"? 🤣 That was the first thing I noticed about this animatic's Zeus.
To be fair, there was no way for Odysseus to know Polyphemus was Poseidons child. Also he spared the cyclops as a lesson from Polites. Even though the cyclops acted violently, Odysseus chose to show mercy. Also, there's nothing in the songs that say Odysseus enjoyed it. They needed to blind him so he would get up and away from the cave entrance. If not, the giant cyclops corpse would keep them trapped in the cave
Alright. Fess up. Who told him about the Divine Sugar Mama joke?
15:34 The OP had an animatic of "Warrior of the Mind" where Athena GAVE Odysseus those bracers to Odysseus, so by taking them off and stomping on them here, Odysseus is severing ties with Athena.
I still stand by that the Odyssey is actually the crew's fault more than Odysseus himself, since they'd probably be home right after the Cyclops if only they didn't open the wind bag
Mortius learned how to say Eurylochus using the trick "You really cussed".
I think Odysseus being tied to the ship in mircsy's animatic of Keep Your Friends Close is not part of the betrayal but him tying himself to the steering (stick?) so they won't go off course if he falls asleep because he doesn't trust anyone else with steering the ship, just as he doesn't trust anyone else with the bag. And that is also just an amazing visualisation of how he literally tied himself down and got in his own way by not trusting his crew.
The ruthless one is so creepy cus you cant see their face its like its saying that the real face of a god is something we humans cant comprehend and we only see what they allow us to see also if you look closely where posiedon was saying that odessyus could have avoided him if he killed him you see him hold a baby and drop it it's a throwback to odessyus killing the infant in the troy saga
Fun fact: the request for an apology was a ruse to get Odysseus to confess his crimes... hence, ruthlessness would have saved him from losing so many men at the end
final goodbye is a fight between two friends/mentor and student that gets progressively more rough, progressively more violent as the argument goes on by both sides until finally Odysseus says "YOU'RE ALONE" and I feel that is captured beautifully by the animatic with the sword cutting Athena's hair, the tears splashing onto her face. Because in this instance Odysseus knows he's on a self destructive path and feels so alone. And he doesn't know what to do. And that terrifies him. And the end of the song is both of them realising "There is no saving this now."
I will never get over the tone switch up when Ody opens the bag. Makes me laugh every time
Yup. And Poseidon's "What!?", too. 😊
@@Airier that “what” moments are some of my favourite just in general
People are treating Epic Eurylochus like _The Odyssey_ Eurylochus deserves to be treated, when in Epic, he's a good man who made a mistake.
"Every time someone dies, I'm left to deal with the strain." That stings. That hurts in a different way, now that we've seen everything we've seen.
Incase you didn't know Jorge likes to give characters a instrument that represents them. Depending on the context the type of instrument changes. Alongside this the more electronic & distorted the music gets the closer to the gods it is. Its really noticable in thunderbringer as Odysseus's instrument is the guitar and it becomes electric as he makes his choice. I believe Athena's is a piano qhich we hear at the end. She never stopped watching him.
the main and pretty much only major difference between the odyssey and epic is the lesson that "ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves" so everything is mainly the exact same but its affected by odyseuses outlook on being ruthless for personal mercy
Some things i LOVE about annis ruthless animatic is:
Ody's eyes disappearing when it shifts to poseidons lines at the end- i always interpreted this as showing that poseidon views everyine as blanke chips vs individuals because it makes being ruthless easier when you have no empathy.
This also leads nicely into poseidon closing his eyes and looking up paired with yhe "so close your heart" lines
Also the later scene of the full black screen behind ody and just poseidons glowing eyes looking at him + the background chorus of "when does a man become a monster"-
just like ugh the story telling in yhis animatic is so good because what i said above is LITERALLY the answer to that question and something arguably all the gods have to do because for one they arent (mortal) men byt also the other implications (not to mention the line at the beginning of the song "i live without a choice"
Also my personal interpretation of the apology scene has always been that the apology is pointless regardless- whether ody apologized or not changed nothing. Which is why the line says "the line between hopefullness and naivety is almost invisible" hits so hard- is ody being hopeful attemping to apologize or is it pure naivety to even try? I think its more that poseidon is disgusted over ody doing either honestly
35:57 just the look of horror/shock on Odysseus' face when Poseidon dropped the child
So happy to see you react to these added animatics! There's way more, if you look for animatics for any of the songs on your own you'll have hours of fun waiting for you!
The bit of the horse crashing into the water is like…. A direct reference to the clip of Spirit Stallion of the Cimmaron jumping into the water to save Rain
A lot of people hate on eurylochus, especially for the wind bag. But i think mircxy really captures why eurylochus might have caved to the will of the crew and opened it. like not "because hes stupid, or greedy" but he doesnt trust Odysseus cause odysseus doesnt place any trust back.
We see Eurylochus approach an exausted Ody, whos prolly been awake just guarding that bag for days already. He tries to get him tot restt and just let his second in command help him, and is returned with just Ody screaming and snapping at him. Like Througout the story its shown time and time again, that Odysseus just doesnt hold faith in Eurylochus, and eurylochus loses trus in return to the increasingly disttant and eratic Ody.
Neo or Neoptolemus, originally called Pyrrhus at birth, was the son of the warrior Achilles and the princess Deidamia, and the brother of Oneiros. He became the mythical progenitor of the ruling dynasty of the Molossians of ancient Epirus.
If you want to see an amazing taken on ''Poseidon IS the ocean'' check out Tamatama's animatic of Ruthlesness, that one's an amazing one too
Anniflamma’s Ruthlessness is my favorite
26:00 What I think is implied here, is that Eurylochus tells Odysseus like "Captain, you haven't slept for 4 days. I'll keep the bag safe so you can go rest" but Odysseus is having none of it, lashing out like Frodo did to Sam.
13:30 That's not canon. The only wound he inflicts on Athena is to her pride. Honestly, that alone is "Why are you not dead?" vibes, considering Arachne disrespected Athena less, and got turned into a SPIDER. Odysseus got off easy.
Epic Poseidon doesn't have regrets. He doesn't care what he has to do to be "respected" by mortals. Quotation marks because respect out of fear is not respect. Respect is earned.
You didn’t notice when Poseidon was holding the water like a baby and talking about his son he dropped the water like Odysseus did to the infant that’s why face was animated that way.
23:17 "That is absolutely adorable." Adorable enough that we can completely ignore the fact that they just said "Sometimes, killing is a must."
Something I haven’t seen anyone mention, Eurylochus has been pessimistic from the beginning on them making it home- he was the one to sow seeds of dissent in the crew, and when he rips into Odysseus after Scylla about running away, he brought up running away first during Circe
Zeus did have the head of Medusa on his chest. After she was decapitated and after Perseus' adventures I believe it goes to the gods somehow and it is made into a shield called the aegis which is a symbol of both Zeus and Athena :3
Love your reactions! I hadn't seen a bunch of these animatics myself so nice to bring attention to them!
am i the only who thinks Airier should react to more Musical Animatics?
I noticed. That the lotus eater had the flower plucked from its head. Freeing it from the lotus addiction and turning it into a winnion. Maybe its a way of showing it died. Cause if you think. Lotus takes ahold. And they wouldnt have fed the little friend what its grown accustomed to. So it was starving in a way
While I enjoy seeing different interpretations of the apology given by Odysseus; whether it's an excuse, a lie, not actually an apology, or whatever; these ignore the song's main message and what Poseiden is saying(IMO). Ruthlessness is mercy, even if Odysseus gave the most genuine apology of all time it wouldn't have mattered if Poseidon accepted it and spared him it would go completely against what he's trying to tell Odysseus, that ruthlessness is mercy. I interpret the following line after the apology as Poseidon calling out Odysseus for being either naive enough, hopeful enough, or both to actually think that would work and he has to repeat his message, "The line between naïveté and hopefulness is almost invisible. So close your heart, the world dark and ruthlessness is mercy". So my interpretation is that it was never about the apology but more so that Odysseus still doesn't understand what Poseidon is saying.
39:40 It's open to whatever you interpret it - but for me it's how Poseidon did give Odysseus chance to be more than an average men (to be worthy of putting himself among gods), but Odysseus doesn't measure up.
So it's both Odysseus naively thinking his tricks that worked on humans would work on a god, BUT ALSO Poseidon naively thiking a human might measure up to gods. It's especialy fitting with him hating 'Greeks with false sense of righteousness' and Poseidon closing his own EYES as he sings about it.
So Odysseus blend in with the rest of his 'common men' crew.
I'd say it was just as vindictive considering the dropped water baby to further twist the knife
Posciden in Epic let him go and waited years just to scare the shit out of him when oddy almost reaches home
I absolutely adore the fact that the animation changes to watercolor when you see the POV of the people drowning.
I just love seeing artists being creative with these songs. They all have their styles and interpretations
Why didn't Athena just outright tell Odysseus whose son he just blinded? Honestly, if he knew he had injured the son of Poseidon, even he wouldn't be stupid enough to leave a victim that could identify him.
If you're interested there are 2 animatics by Neal Illustrator that made Thunderbringer and Ruthlessness. Both have the gods being larger than life but Ruthlessness has Poseidon just pissed off, no smiling to happily beat him down just absolute fury
I hope I'll see him watch "I am the monster ra ra ra"
39:02 probably for the best while i still stand firm he did apologize this is posidon and apology or not the whole point of the song is he was 100% not gonna spare ody cause ruthlessnss is mercy upon ourselves
So its like "you really thought id do that?"
28:35 I love how you can hear athena try and tell him. To wake up, Begging and pleqding for him to wake up. But she had no control over him anymore. He gave that up.
As a dad im 100% with Posseidon on this 1. Someone breaks into your sons house, kills his friends/pets for food, lies to him, drugs and blinds him, and then has the audacity to give him a lecture telling him his name, thinking he wont take responsability for his actions. And then the little shit dares to go, ooooh we didnt enjoy doing that... Yeah Ruthlesness it is then.
25:09 I think the one in the back is Aeolus disguising themself as a crewman (to fan the flames of thise rumors ykno, gotta "give the fire enough to stay burning") which greek gods were known to do to mess with mortals lol, fun detail
To say Eurylacus name is You Really Cuss