Fun fact: This game had less people working on it than previous boost style games. The director was Sonic Lost World's director (as well as Colors' director) and the people working on the level design were all rookies. The director for Sonic Generations is different from Colors and he had no part of this game as well as the level designers from Sonic Generations. I forgot to mention that the total number of level designers that worked this game were 3. I also forgot that the "rookies" actually never worked on a Sonic game before until this one. I also forgot that the producer of this game was the director of Sonic 06.
I love the 2D level design from Colors. I mean, they definitely put in too much 2D, but the design was very open with multiple pathways and it takes good advamtage of Wisps. I think that design team deserves more credit.
But I thought it was the creators of generations and colors... what the heck no wonder it's getting bad reviews did they not know what people thought about Lost World.
Christ, that ending was unscripted? Impressive shit, Johnny. This is how you can tell how much a franchise means to someone - when you can go off on a passionate tangent without a single mistake. Sonic Team better listen to this guy.
Caddicarus I agree because I found out thanks to AntDude that there was new blood for this game but they didn’t do a good job on the level design because the stages were short as far as I can tell (You’ll be seeing A or S ranks a lot) and worst of all they included Classic Sonic and ruined him now that’s going TOO FAR
Kyle Campbell It means he's verified, meaning that it's easy to tell the fake Caddicarus' (because everyone fakes TH-camrs these days), from the real one.
Passionate? To me, all it did was show just how much a nerd John is. Then again we are talking about the same guy who spends so much time on his youtube channels that he doesn't even have a healthy sleep schedule.
Indeed. I feel like if the series is gonna get another gameplay refresh. Or to make it sound simpler, leave the boost gameplay, and focus on something new. Sega should hire story writers that has the skills of Ian Flynn, and the level designer skills of... whoever is well known for making good level designs. Add new, talented voice actors. (But obviously keep Mike Pollock. He's too good of an Eggman to leave.) And they can also bring back the custom character, adding more species, selections, ect. I could just go on, but then this comment would be as long as a 11 minute cartoon.
To me it seem like this game should have been like shadow the hedgehog whereas your character can choose to be good or bad. That would have been better then the game doing it for you. I would like better if they copied what they did in Persona 5, whereas in that game you can name your character and yet would have liked it if you could name your character in this game and all the sonic characters introduced themselves your character because if it were something more like that then the game would be good for first timers. They'll be able to know every Sonic character and not make it seem like there just throwing you in there and telling you we need your help. Another idea would be to have some verity in the gameplay. Like Modern Sonic's gameplay can be adventure style, Classic Sonic can be the same, though don't make every stage have the same look, don't make him feel so heavy and the avatar stages can be generation style which is a good start on how the avatar should experience the level. All 3 characters should have an equal amount of stages. Attention to detail should be more seen through the game like for ex. show that Tails has totally lost it and make Sonic look all banged up to make it look like he has been torcher for mouths. Don't make every stage take control away from the player. Finally, put Blaze in the game because the fact that she isn't in this game means that Sonic generation isn't canon and they're fallowing up with 06. I mean if she was generation then she should be in this. One more thing and this is my opinion of the game, Forces is too much of a tease like you're having so much fun and then the fun gets taken away from you. It's like Sonic Team was too much of a bully to us with this game and boy do I wish I can have a talk with them about this. If there's anything you think they should have added then be my guest.
I can agree with you with almost a lot of things. For the blaze part, well she does come from a diffrent dimension. But then 06 screwed it up and had her from the future. She has her duties of protecting the sol emeralds. Though if infinite would take those and escape, then she'd have a good reason of being there. And for classic sonic, he wasn't needed at all. Tails should've been the second character instead. Focus more on him redeeming his independence, and not calling sonic to help, and hide like a wimp. The gameplay could be some sort of mix of his two spin off games, sure, not high speed, but can be entertaining. And for the love of god, they should've just kept infinite alive, like a returning villain for the games. Not just fight him 3 times, beat him with my little poney, friendship is magic shit, and him just disappearing.
Yeah, because Infinite was defeated it's like a lot was left out from him. I mean he's a new character, but people would like to learn more about him. I agree classic Sonic shouldn't have been in this game, it's like Sonic Team just wanted to make classic fans take this into action. Though, that right there would have been most brilliant idea for this game. If Eggman were to travel back in time and take the Sol emeralds then Blaze would fit right in. Heck, she can be the second character, that would've been even better because a lot of us would want to experience with her gameplay, though I doubt Sonic Team will do that much. Another thing is that Tails was my fav in Sonic games and would of liked it more if he were to stand up and act a bit heroic besides being a weakling. Forget generations and colors just give us another Sonic Rush game, this would totally be a good concept. Though, one question is should Silver be in this game?
I was very disappointed to see Tails cowering in fear every time a casual enemy showed up. Like wtf, did Sonic Adventure not happen or something? He was such a bad ass in that game.
Sega confirmed that Mania happens after Sonic 3. Sonic Adventure makes numerous references to previous games. Classic Sonic in Mania is the Classic Sonic from Forces. This gives off the implication (intentional or otherwise) that the Sonic from the Classic games and the Adventure-Black Knight games is a different Sonic from Sonic Colors-Sonic Forces.
TheZeldaExperienceWithin this makes no sense, seriously, if mania happened after sonic three, and if it did happen before sonic adventure 1, which is what I’m guessing, doesn’t that mean chaos, shadow, and Zavok don’t exist yet? I get it’s the whole multi dimension thing but then if that was the case Why is sega saying mania happened after sonic three, doesn’t that mean sonic forces happened after sonic 3? why didn’t they use time travel instead of dimensions IT DOESNT MAKE ANY FUCKING SENSE! Sonic team, not sega, cause it’s up to sonic team to create the game, doesn’t give a shit about anything anymore, and until iizuka dies, none of this crap will end IMO, they should make Sonic Lost world, mania and forces not canon, it’ll not make much of a difference but atleast it won’t mess with the story, I agree with Johnny in that there should be an adventure like-game, but I don’t think iizuka is not letting that happen cause he doesn’t want to stick on the past (even tho your using classic sonic) It’s because he knows the game won’t be good, at all That’s all I have to say
Johnny being disappointed, sad, and begging Sonic Team to bring in new people instead of being as bitter as he was with 06 makes me unreasonably sad now.
Dubious Unknown This game brought new people. However, they weren't very skilled. There were only three level designers. These three guys never worked on a Sonic game before.
I've always been a Mario fan but it's just so sad to see this. 20 years ago Sonic was on par with Mario. Now we have Mario Odyssey, a game with thousands of hours and so much care and love poured into it. A genuinely great experience all around. And then this? A budget title thats only 4 hours long? There's no contest. Mario is just in a completely different league now. Sonic deserves better.
Maybe it’s for the best that they don’t compete, cos I don’t want SEGA to think they can get on Mario’s level with one entry. If pressure gets to them, I can see them rushing another game.
Devin McLeod as overrated as i think odyssey is i can't lie that odyssey had way more things and was better than forces and this is coming from a sonic fan
I hate to say this, I don't think the 3D Sonic games have ever been as good as Mario. I enjoyed them, but they had a ton of flaws and filler content like emerald hunting and mech stages which frustrates me even when they first came out. The problem is Sonic team always seems to have to focus on a gimmick instead of using what works.
Blaze started as from another dimension, then from the future Classic Sonic started out from the past, then from another dimension. Is it Opposite Day?
Actually no they weren't. The Japanese manual and website for 06 states that Blaze was transported to the future of Sonic's dimension and stays there to help the people fight against Iblis. Her dialogue even suggests that she is the same Blaze because she clearly recognizes Sonic's description and seems to want to get back to Silver during the Wave Ocean level because she feels he's being tricked. Granted they do a 180 on that after that (Feels like it's two different versions of the storyline put together) but that was very much the implication they give off during those scenes. I personally don't understand why people assumed she suddenly had a different backstory when her dialogue clearly suggests that they're one and the same. The fact she doesn't do anything with that aspect afterwards is a product of either poor planning or being an early draft of the intended final storyline, but that was clearly their intention when making those scenes.
It didn't retcon itself though? Having the games' timeline be undone doesn't retcon anything. A retcon is something that's impossible to happen thanks to previous storylines making its existence impossible thus making it non canon to the series timeline. Nothing in 06 is anything like that. A retcon is when Point A has storylines that make the future releases the equivalent of officially endorsed fanfiction, not a storyline that has a time reboot at the end.
You said it yourself. They didn't say which villains. Leaving room for interpretation. They knew, we would think of Shadow and Chaos, since both of 'em had entire games focused on them. I don't count Zavok, since he has no backstory whatsoever. And we didn't even know who Infinite was, besides the fact that he's edgier than Shadow, so I don't count him in either. It's a clear marketing move, but misleading as hell.
Comparatively, Sonic Adventure and SA2 had complaints of 'being on rails' or 'playing itself', but having played Forces, Sonic team actually created or had the best formula for a 3D Sonic game with the adventure titles. If they polished up the gameplay, added variety that fits the character and the gameplay styles we expect of Sonic, I agree, it's time to visit an adventure style game with the polish and ingenuity of a modern Mario title. Here's hoping!
After playing the Adventure games recently, I think they haven’t aged well at all. The controls can be overly sensitive, they can be oddly glitchy, and the side characters’ gameplay was often slow and tedious. I think that it would be cool to see boost gameplay remixed into a Sonic Utopia-esque world.
This is a mindset I've never understood, that "Oh, we were just dumb children then who hadn't played enough games to know which ones were good or not! And if you go back and play those games now, you'll notice all sorts of problems you were blind to before and see how bad they really are!" It just sounds strange to me. I've gone back and played the adventure games recently, and I swear I just enjoy them more and more each time.
Which adventure gameplay? The town exploring stuff was complete rubbish. Treasure hunting, mech shooting, fishing, and slow Sonic suck. Sonic Adventure 2's over-reliance on auto-playing grind rails ruin the Sonic and Shadow stages of that game. Only Sonic and Tails in Adventure 1 are passable, and even then this isn't really a good thing. They aren't terrible but they aren't good either. A game based around that really needs to be refined before it can work, it shouldn't be made to be exactly like the old games.
I definitely agree that the Sonic Franchise needs some fresh blood. Get a new team together to work on Modern Sonic, let the Mania team continue working on Classic Sonic and let the current Sonic Team work on something else to give them a break from developing sonic games non stop. Maybe bring back some Neglected franchises to take Sonic's place for a while until Modern Sonic is ready to make a proper comeback.
Yeah. I do feel like Sonic Team should let some younger folk take on Modern Sonic. Just look at Mario Odyssey. That was a younger team and it's an amazing game. I'd say Forces isn't bad but not a masterpiece.
A little information that might be useful to some people: Sonic Team was actually split into two teams sometime near the release of the 360 and ps3; Team A and Team B. Team A has been credited for developing Sonic Unleashed(ps3/360), Sonic Generations and Sonic Colors. Team B was the team responsible for Sonic Lost World and now Sonic Forces but it's also speculated that The Secret Rings and The Black Knight were also developed by Team B. The trailers saying "by the team who brought you colors and generations" were definitely misleading as this was a different team from those games, and the people who did work on both forces and the other two aforementioned games were not in the same positions, and had less control over the final product. Wether Team A is working on the next big thing is unknown, but i certainly hope they bring back Team A.
MASONTALE over the years this information was revealed in interviews, and by closely watching who is credited for what, who worked on which parts, etc. It's honestly quite interesting to see how sega structures their teams.
Pretty sure Colors and Generations weren't the same team. In fact, Colors and Lost World share more team members between them, namely the director, Morio Kishimoto (who previously also worked on Secret Rings and Black Knight). He also directed Forces. So basically "from the team that brought you Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations" is misleading on multiple levels.
To be fair I don't have a source for this either other than the director's name and some hearsay. Feel like I might've read an article stating Colors and Generations were different teams but I dunno if I could dig it up. But Kishimoto's connections to Forces, Colors, Lost World, Black Knight, and Secret Rings would be one thread at least. All I know is that apparently Colors and Generations both went into development immediately after Unleashed was completed. Though I'm not sure if that's evidence for different teams or same teams, but you gotta admit, Colors and Generations have a very different gameplay feel.
I'll just say this: If diehard Sonic fans can make a better Sonic game (Sonic Mania) than his actual creators (Sonic Forces), then you know something's wrong.
Which is why I believe fans and developers of 3D Sonic games could do something too, with fan projects like Utopia, and other things to back up the potential.
To be fair, most of classic Sonic team is gone. So Sonic Mania came as the result of both bringing back classic Sonic and building a new classic Sonic Team.
David Dias forces was made by new people that never worked on a sonic game. The older people that worked on colors and generations moved up and didn’t work on this. Shame
Layla Francesca Rannick because it unfortunately was. You have no idea how many times I was frustrated to see an unnecessary boost pad when my boost gauge was full,have a spin dash or drop dash, or have a character that accelerates 0 to 100 real quick. And the amount of times I could've controlled Sonic/OC but the game does it for me
Travis Plush Productions fun fact sonic forces had the code name of “Sonic Wars” if you look at sonic forces in taskmanager it says Wars as the game s name
my biggest problem with the game is the absurdly short levels, its as johnny said, just when you finally start to enjoy yourself, the stage ends..... they also removed the drift, one of my favorite things from sonic generations....now turning tight corners is automatic, which is as insulting as it can get. "edit: personally i think the perfect lenght for a sonic stage is between 3 to 4 minutes, above 4 it starts to wear out its welcome like planet wisp in generations, and below 3 it becomes underwhelming like most sonic colors acts and this game" its interesting how classic death egg clearly tries to be like the one from sonic & knuckles...but the music is just awful (i like most classic tracks of this game, but even i have to admit that one is shit) at this rate they should've just remixed the one from s&k
My thoughts exactly. It's a mechanic that was taken out but it added extra depth and a slightly higher skill ceiling. So much progress was made from unleashed to colors and then to generations but they took a major step backwards in my opinion. Generations had shorts levels but you were in control for the entirety of those levels , however this game FORCES you to turn and takes away control for those parts. it stops the boost function out of nowhere and does the work for you even as the avatar when I could have simply drifted around WHILE boosting. i want to play and learn the game not have my hand held around tight corners. i cant wait for the modding community to put these levels in generations so that everyone can see just how much better those mechanics were.
Short levels can work, but all of the stages in Forces go nowhere with their designs or gimmicks. They don't do much of substance with their things before they finish, leading to a very flaccid experience overall.
And sometimes the camera distance is ass. Sonic and avatar are either to small or are to blended in with the background it’s hard to tell where you’re at and just up dying or getting hit.
Shockingly, the IDW series, taking place right after Forces, fixes a lot of plot stuff. Blaze is back and even goes Burning during an arc, the characters are much more like themselves as opposed to, "none of this is good, Vector. That's why it's called war," and there's even a bit of a meta reference having to do with Neo Metal Sonic, to the ending possibly being unfinished. Also, I don't know if it was intentional, but your use of Jim Carrey clips is super fitting.
@@sonicmario64 In the generic New Super Mario Bros. games I guess, sure, but tons of people complain about how safe and samey those are all the time. And they are. Easily the most uninspired Marios. The 3D Marios however (which is what we should be comparing the 3D Sonic games to after all, not the 2D ones) all have new interesting locations, even in their beginnings. Sunshine is on a tropical island, Galaxy is in *space,* Odyssey has you start in wacky Tim Burton land and then go to a dinosaur world by possessing an electrical wire with his talking hat. I'm actually not sure how it could be any more varied honestly. Not like any of this matters anyway, just because another series _apparently_ does a bad thing too, it doesn't make it good. But let's say Mario _did_ always regurgitate the same level. Then Sonic would _still_ suck more for doing it because Sonic has far more distinct levels and locations. Mario's thing is worlds based on basic things classically, like the water level the sky level the lava level the castle etc. The 3D ones of course mix things up a bit. Sonic however has very visually distinct zones, with fun names and unique enemies in each of them. Each zone has it's own distinct music, aesthetic and Eggman boss at the end. They have their own level gimmicks and hazards, it's kind of a staple of the classic series (which they are constantly referencing and aping). Reusing one of those is so much more noticeable then just having another grass level. Sonic just being on grass isn't the problem, it's that Green Hill Zone specifically is constantly in the new ones over and over for some sort of pathetic nostalgia whoring. Mario does the nostalgia thing too sometimes, just never to the extent the Sonic series has been doing it in recent times. Generations, Basically Lost World, Mania and Forces have _all_ started with Green Hill. 3 of those also have Chemical Plant in them as well, 2 of them have it as the second zone. It's just getting ridiculous.
@@AnthonyKusanagi101 I've played every level in that game like 300 times so don't feel too bad. It's kind of designed to be replayed. Also City Escape just never gets old.
Zona Nula, you don't fight Shadow either and the last Infinite boss fight is a rehash of the Metal Sonic boss fight. For Some reason Zavoc's boss fight is actually pretty good.
And most of the bosses are just warm-ups for the final boss. Classic Sonic's phase is the Egg Dragoon battle in Green Hill, the Avatar's part is kind of based off Zavok's fight, and the final phase is Infinite/Metal Sonic. And it's also ANOTHER copy/paste of the Colors final boss.
Looking at a couple playthroughs, it looks like the developers did a good chunk of work, but partway through, they just got tired and said, "whatever, this is good enough." It's seen in the cliched writing, the short stages, and the half-assed appearances of the wider Sonic cast. The game wasn't made out of passion like Sonic Mania, but instead looks like it was made out of obligation.
i felt the same way, it feels like it was made with a checklist of "stuff people liked in previous games", but with no care or understanding of why those things worked in the first place
@@Michael-590 I'll look into this more later, but a lot of peoplr say that they actually lost the code for the original Forces half way in development so they had to rush it to meet the deadline in the remaning year they had
Huh, I must have overlooked that part. I thought that it had something to do with losing a lot of older, more experienced staff that worked on games like Sonic Generations.
A channel known as Shadow759 made a video called "Sonic Forces theory has tails lost it?" It's mainly a joke video, but the theory is something to think about.
Goddammit, they missed such a great opportunity! Come on Sega, wake up! Most of the Sonic fans are 30 something years old! You can get a bit more edgy than a Mario shitty clone games.
I agree with what you said at the end while not doing literally adventure 3 but do the sonic tails and knuckles adventure 1 style gameplay while also bringing other characters such as shadow, espio, rouge, etc.
So I probably have a unpopular opinion but I feel like having sonic boost knuckles glide and punch and tails fly could be good in an adventure game just make the boost less o.p. (like you can destroy enemies but you still get hurt by projectiles)
they should remaster both adventure titles, before even jumping to the lets just make sonic adventure 3, this people clearly are oblivious to what makes sonic... sonic
More like: “Sonic Team Forces out another one” Yes, I’m aware I’ve made this joke before but my ego is fragile and the only thing keeping me from ending it all is validation from my friendly peers on the internet
Hearing Knuckles' "war" line made me laugh so hard. I don't know if it's the delivery, just the fact it's Knuckles of all people saying it or both but it is hilarious. (To me at least.)
Blaze has her own stuff to do at here own dimension there really is no reason for her to be there in this game Sliver does because if he doesnt help bad future and such.
But the events of Sonic 06 were erased from history, so Silver should have never met Sonic and Co. But then Sonic Generations treats the events of 06 as canon so Silver met Sonic anyway. But Sonic 06 says that Blaze is from the future and not an alternate dimension so what the hell is the deal with Sonic Rush and Rush Adventure? You know what, fuck the Sonic mythos.
Yup, you're right. Though it never felt that intrusive in those games. They cranked it up way too much in forces where it just feels like you're watching sonic instead of playing him.
This game I have mix feelings.There was a spark but sadly it didn't ignite.I'm fine with it but wish it was better. I do like mostly the avatar parts with the variety of the wispons and the customization, Modern Sonics levels were ok but were too short(same with the other levels), and finally classic Sonic levels ain't no Mania for sure.Can't really stand the classic sonic level music in this game.Right now I'm just playing it to unlock clothing and see other avatars with the SOS missions.
burgerkingJ When I watched this review, I kept saying to myself, " Why is the game like this?" or, "How did this happen?" It really quite unfortunate too. Just like Johnny said, there are certain areas of the game that seem interesting but are never fully fleshed out. I just can't imagine what was going on with Sonic Team over that 4 year period. This game should have been so much better than it turned out to be. What happened?
EV3R ST0RM That honestly worries me. Sh*t like these honestly makes me wonder what they were thinking when advertising this game. Did they feel bad for straight up lying to their fans or did they not care at all about them and only cared about the money they were gonna get? And that makes me think, is Arron Webber playing an act, pretending to care, or does he himself feel terrible for what he has done? I hope it’s the latter because Webber seems to nice to be a money grubbing asshole.
EV3R ST0RM ok A: WOW I was not expecting a reply that quick and B: I do believe that too. It’s just sometimes you need to stop and think about these kinds of things. But yeah, Aaron’s too much of a cinnamon roll to not feel bad about it.
Jackeboy I do think about it. And I still believe Aaron cares. He is a reason I believe sega America should be in charge of sonic rather than sega japan.
well turns out believe it or not this actually WAS made by new blood yeah turns out Sonic Forces was made by a bunch of Newbies meanwhile the original designers were moved up to higher positions in the company yep, even after they promised the people who made Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations working on this game turns out the designers never worked on a sonic game, Period
monster25man They need to be new AND have a working understanding of how Sonic games work (i.e. be fans of the series). I do like that Sonic Team is smart enough to bring in new developers but just because their viewpoints are fresh doesn't mean they're informed; what Sonic Team needs is more developers who GIVE A DAMN about Sonic.
"Nope, sorry Johnny. but we want to move forward with the Sonic franchise. We aren't looking to go back just to please a small group of fans that liked heavily flawed games like SA/2. Enjoy more of your Green hill. Deal wit it." -Sonic Team
'06 was 11 years ago, and they've more than made up for it with Unleashed (daytime), Colors, and Generations. Forces was mediocre at worst and decent at best, yet people are acting like it'll kill the franchise.
★ Froggie Animation ★ ok so you're gonna ignore the original trilogy, Sonic Adventure 1 & 2, and Sonic Mania? Also Boom was made by a third party developer with a gameplay style that really wasn't Sonic.
★ Froggie Animation ★ I'd argue that Sonic Lost World is pretty decent, certainly not bad. Sonic CD is pretty damn good as well. Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic '06 were rolling dumpster fires, I'll admit that. And yes I don't include Sonic Boom as part of the franchise because of the reasons I listed. It's like saying Sonic Shuffle is a main series game even though the gameplay is so different.
Akeem Taylor No I mean Sonic Unleashed. It came out with that style of gameplay first. It was only ruined by that only being half the game and the rest being those boring Werehog stages.
Wouldn't say it knocked it out of the park but it was still a great experience and if SEGA continues with this new formula, they can make a masterpiece.
People have been saying this for more than 10 years now, what the fuck. It's not a matter of the game's style, it's a matter of sheer incompetence on the maker's side. They could make a game with Adventure-style gameplay and it would still be shit.
The fact that the main reason on why Infinite is the way he is, because Shadow called him weak is pathetic. Here's how i would've done it. My reason on why infinite has gone over to the dark side (and the deep end) is because he wanted to get revenge on Shadow for wiping out his entire squad and avenging said squad, and going after ANYOJE that shadow knows. shadow calling him weak was the straw that broke the camel's back, thus causing infinite to go insane after feeling intense guilt for not trying harder alongside his comrades. Then he would go after anyone that shadow knows which is why he would go after Rouge and Omega, shadow's closest comrades (using that word a lot huh?) He eventually met up with Eggman and push comes to shove, the two strike a deal to achieve each other's goals, Eggman gives Infinte the Phantom Ruby so that he can destroy shadow once and for all IF Infinte destroys Sonic. But that's how i would handle infinite's story in Forces.
15:25 Actually they did bring in some new blood. THe level designers of Forces are new members of Sonic Team. Why they didn't bring in the level designers of Generations is beyond me. Forces isn't a bad game. I'd play this and the Wii U/PC version of Lost World over the other Meh SOnic games like Heroes, Shadow and Black Knight. but FOrces could've been so much more.
We need fan developers that loves Sonic not random people from Japan that doesn't give a shit about Sonic and just want a paycheck. And the inconsistency of keeping their good development teams is really damaging Sonic right now.
When a classic fanboy like Johnny is asking you to pull the plug on the annoyingly pointless nostalgic pandering, you know you've milked the old days dry.
Sonic Team: "Shit we made a bad game, quick make something good to fix it!!" *Good game happens* ST: "Ah yes good, now make something bad again so we can keep the balance!!"
I like how you emphasized it's not bad... it's just kinda there. What needs to happen more than anything is for Sega itself to step in and pull in Odyssey by hiring new people who grew up with this series and create that new adventure style game. I think the current sonic team at this point has proven they don't care or at least are incompetent to make sonic be anything more than fine, so until Sega steps in and does something; we'll probably end up getting the same shit
What a fucking world. SEGA basically includes a fan game into canon by tying it into an official sega game. The offical SEGA game is the one that feels undeserving of being connected.
Having played both Mania and Forces... Mania feels like they poured years of love and attention into it, whilst Forces feels like the neglected half child that the Sega family hides in the cupboard under the stairs because they can barely be bothered to feed it. Sure, having a create a character thing was neat, but the gameplay was all exceedingly bland and short, and you're literally just being pushed along without even doing anything like 80% of the time. Thats not a game. Its a woosh simulator. So yeah. The "Hard work" of most likely outsourcing to inexperienced developers on lower than average pay, with less than average allotted work hours to the deadline. I'm not saying that Forces COULDN'T have been great, but if they actually put more time, money and effort into it, and perhaps delayed it a year to make it fleshed out and feel like a finished game, sure. But admit it. it's Boom all over again. Hell, the enemies don't even DO anything. Even fodder enemies in earlier games would feebly attempt a swing at you. These bots are all bland and literally stand still.
Couldn't agree more with your unscripted bit, Sonic Team just feels like they're making games because they have to but Sonic deserves way better. There needs to be serious shakeups in SEGA.
God that last segment, so real and so true. I honestly thought that maybe Sonic Team would get the help of the Mania team, but the part of the game which I honest to God thought was there only for quality control, to be sure it was good, ended up being the most half assed attempt at recreating the classic games we've ever seen. Worse that Sonic 4 Episode II, but still, not awful, just so mediocre and uninteresting.
Nice to hear a critically unbiased review of this game after reading the abomination that is the comment section of the official Sonic the Hedgehog TH-cam page, full of people fighting over how Sonic Forces is either the best game ever made or a pile of garbage. People saying that Mania is a terrible game aimed to leech easy money from '90s fanboys just makes me sad how little some people must really understand properly functioning game design. Thanks for being smart, Johnny. Loved the review. :)
I like sonic forces the stages are short but there still fun to go like Sonic Rush or Colors but I wish classic sonic wasn't there he really has no reason to be there at all. The avatar stages are definitely the best of the game and the bosses where great other than Metal sonics and it does feel like some stuff was not finished i.e the Null dimension it was there for 5 secs and solved it had no point. Sonic Mania is the better game though but my only complaint with Mania was it went overboard with the references to past games but at least it did new things with them in there Act 2s along with new zones and great level design and bosses.
Yes i think Modern Sonic needs fans to work on the games too. Look at fan projects like "Sonic World" an Adventure style Sonic game with multiple characters to play as and you can even play it up to a team of 3 like heroes. Sadly Izuka thinks an adventure style game would "hold the franchise back" despite he himself is holding the franchise back by cramming Classic Sonic and Green hill in every game. Not hating classic but he's kinda overused at this point plus he should be reserved for 2D games for the classic era style.
I should probably note that i don't support Sonic World anymore... Some controversial stuff happened that basically got me evicted... :( Anyways yeah, Iizuka apparently would rather listen to detractors and critics over real fans.
The only 3d games that have done that are shadow and heroes. I find it obvious to only make ONE play style. Modern sonic and the oc play similarly but the controls and the level design are too simple to be fun.
i think the different playstyles MIGHT be a result of fan requests resulting in the fanbase being split on what they want and sega can't please a majority
I think the main problem is that sonic team tried to cater to all different branches of the fan base and completely lost focus on creating something original with the modern era.
NovaBeast92 At this point, they shouldn't bother. There is no way to put Adventure, Lost world, and Boost in one game and work. Pick one and go with it.
I actually feel sorry for sonic team because I'm really concerned in what type of 3D Sonic game they're gonna make and be about? The fans are like Scribble Scrabble, so its kinda hard on what their gonna do...
Hey Sonic Team. 14:24 You're welcome! All jokes aside, I think you hit the nail on the head in the end. I think the boost formula just isn't doing Sonic any justice. I mean hell, imagine working on a level pathway for months with beautiful level aesthetics.... only to have the player fly through it in less than a second with the boost button. That's why I believe Sonic Team is drained. The boost formula is too automatic for the player. And building levels for that formula sounds like hell. Its time to meet the middle man and do the adventure formula. Great review Johnny! -Sam :)
Gotta agree with ya on that one. I've always hated the non stop wise cracking these days with Sonic, it was endearing when it was done at certain moments not when everything that comes out of his mouth is a wise crack. It straight up pissed me off when he's still doing it after being tortured for 6 months and is aware the world is in ruin Because eggman made him watch.
HyperFrost220 even still, they repeated themselves with Mania And that game is friken amazing I would love another adventure style game because it has a crapload of potential... But Sonic Team just needs to sit down and truly focus on making it great and enjoyable with as little flaws as possible
He actually said something along the lines of "not yet", not a hard "no". His line of thinking was that an Adventure 3 would make people happy, but he'd rather make people ECSTATIC with something unexpected first in order to show people what the Sonic series is capable of being. You know how he could accomplish that? *_QUIT._*
They need to *STOP PLAYING IT SO SAFE.* Sonic Team and SEGA *NEED* to stop giving us half-written and half-baked stories, they need to deliver a full and cohesive storytelling, with good interesting plots that get fleshed out. *STOP* making Sonic happy 99% of the time, it literally downplays *ANY* dangerous situation he's and virtually kills *ANY* tension and drama. Dial back on the automation in the levels, I've been playing Sonic for decades, I've played almost every game besides the weird Game Gear ones, and Sonic Forces feels like only 3 things happen during gameplay: 1. It's a straight line with enemies lined to get boosted/mowed down. 2.QTE (Quick Time Event) just waiting for the right time to press a button or button mash, game plays itself afterwards basically. 3. The controls are fully taken away from the player, you just watch Sonic running and doing stuff, but it's not "You" the player, doing *ANYTHING*. ENOUGH with the Green Hill and Chemical Plant, it was good in Generations, and Mania was pushing it a little (Mostly because Christian Whitehead WANTED to do *ALL* original levels, but fucking Izuka got the final say, and he wanted to do the "Nostalgia Pandering" with the 60/40 ratio of old levels to new levels), but it's time to fucking stop showing Green Hill, this isn't a damn Mario game, Green Hill doesn't have to be the "De-Facto" 1st level or the tutorial level, and Chemical Plant doesn't have to be the "De-Facto" 2nd level to Green Hill. Get Classic Sonic out of here, he was useless both in the story and in gameplay, both Modern Sonic AND the Custom Avatar have 2D in their respective levels, hell even more than the automated 3D, having Classic Sonic's 2D was completely redundant and unnecessary, plus his physics are still bad, maybe even worse than Generations Classic Sonic, so what's the point in having him playable if he doesn't play like how he should? *Just stop using him!* Anyway, there's more I wanted to say, but I think that's enough ranting, of course this is just how I feel how Sonic Forces stopped itself from being a great Sonic game.
Or even better. Say fuck off to any serious story because Sonic does NOT work with a serious, gritty story. I mean for fuck's sake he's a cartoony blue hedgehog fighting a fat man with a poofy moustache.
+Stephen Carter As long as they don't try to be too cringy and embarrassingly lame like in Sonic Colors (Baldy McNose-hair) or in Sonic Lost World (Eggman, you bite!), I'll be okay with them not being too serious in a Sonic game. I just want a good story that does Sonic and his friends justice to their characters.
"STOP making Sonic happy 99% of the time, it literally downplays ANY dangerous situation he's and virtually kills ANY tension and drama." What do you mean. It's not jarring at all to go from "Eggman's been torturing Sonic for 6 months" to "NEXT TIME BRING CHILI DOGS GOTTA GO FAST WAY PAST COOL!" This is perfect storytelling. 👌 I have to say though, I would rather have cringy and embarrassingly lame lightheartedness like "Baldy McNose-hair" than cringy and embarrassingly lame dark serious time like Gerald Robotnik execution videos or the entirety of Shadow the Hedgehog.
Just have some good characters, emotianal depth and just a slight sprinkle of darkness. Sonic and the black Knight, Sonic Unleashed, Sonic adventure and even Sonic heroes in some instances did it very well.
I know how you feel Juan. God, this game looked and played mechanically mediocre. And that's just it: it's mediocre and can not live up to the expectations.
@@Tubular_dude_20y_ago It had a coherent canon from the OG trilogy through CD to Adventure 1. Adventure 2 fails as a sequel due to it only partially remembering key lore. After '06, the series went full Self-Contained Kids' Comedy Cartoon Mini-Movie Line.
Sonic starting with Adventure 2 treated Sonic's friends as having outright _regressed._ Forces drives that implication home, especially in the context of Mania being an alternate immediate followup to the Genesis games.
That explains a lot actually. They should of just gotten the developers/level designers for Unleashed and Generations. They are most competent to make a good boost forumla game.
Damn... I just love how this guy talks. Some of the best damn reviews come out of this channel. Good job as always. Pity Sonic Team can't seem to really care or understand what Sonic is all about
5:45 Johnny: The gang finds out that Eggman has been torturing [Sonic] for the six months he's been gone. Silver in game: No way! That's excellent! Yeah. It truly is.
Sonic gets tortured, he appears to be the same old sonic. Know what game did torture well? Jak and daxter 2. Jak act nothing like he did in one cuz he was put through hell and wanted to kill. I’m like if you want to torture sonic, make his personality reflect that.
What I want, as weird as it sounds, is 06. But as it was intended. With a coherent plot (mostly the same), polished gameplay, and things like that. Every time I play, I just see what could have been.
06 is my favorite sonic game. It combined adventure and speed without the boost function that makes the gameplay flat and dull. The story needs some tweaks and the physics need polishing, but when you look at it at its core, it's a pretty solid game. It just needed to be finished. The game they released wasn't even the latest build of the game.
+dbzfan1121 I think the PC remake will be more competent once it's finished. The plot was mostly coherent, it just got messy with some of the smaller details, especially in Silver's scenario.
They do need to do another adventure styled game. With good story and memorable music and nice animated cutscenes. Also decent character development would be nice lol
The director is the guy who directed Colours, the producer was the one who directed 06. The director usually has a bigger say the game's direction. Although, I have to agree, GET RID PONTAFF ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!
Just a theory, the lack of staff might be due to SEGA and not Sonic Team. Mainly because Sonic Team might not be the only team suffering due to lack of staff. SEGA of Japan even gave another smaller company their male idol phone game.
"Yet for some bizarre region, Silver's here so I had to fill in the gap somehow!" I died laughing at this for some reason! Also, Silver DLC please to explain this question?
Okay, where's that butthurt guy? *later edit) For anyone in the future who gets confused by this comment. here's a link (hopefully twitter will still be up.) twitter.com/Somecallmejon/status/929156542909353985
Exactly I feel like there is potential for 3d sonic. They just need to hire modern fans who have passion in making a open world gameplay style. They can do it. They need to try.
TapOutTheSonicFan78 Heck I thought 06 had potential but look at it, arguably one of the worst games in existence, but I hear the demo was amazing with no flaws, this isn't that bad but I'm getting a similar vibe, maybe it came out too soon like 06 too, should have pulled a Breath of the Wild, yeah we wait 3-5 years (wasn't it announced like 5 years prior and they kept giving dates only to be delayed?) but if it becomes an amazing game it's worth it.
Mlpfanboy I could understand that but still screw the fandom. They don't even know what 3d sonic game they want. It's always a mash of war and its unhealthy. They should just focus on a good 3d sonic game and try. They don't have to listen to every fans out there cause some are very picky.
Johnny has a point though. Sonic The Hedgehog had a rough roller coaster ride ever since Yuji Naka left since 06. No offense but the people at Sonic Team are a bunch of idiots. They need to get Yuji Naka back!
It's been rough since before '06. Adventure DX and Heroes is where the downward slide really started, and Shadow turned the series into a laughingstock.
Johnny, I️ am very pleased about what this video has you talking about. You of all people are someone who knows what should change for better or worse and you phrase your statements perfectly so they’re cohesive and understandable. I️ honest to God hope Sega watches this video and understands their flaws and improves from them. You are a perfect reviewer in my eyes.
I have hope. They seem to want to improve, with how they have Ian Flynn writing the story and Aaron Webber (somebody who knew nearly all of the criticisms Forces was going to get) got a promotion, and the fact that they delayed the game hopefully means this won't be another 06, boom etc.
@@J.R.Unbound hopefully. frontiers looks to be a big budget game which we haven't had since unleashed so that's a good first step. internally delaying the game is good if it needs extra time for quality. hopefully they reveal a gameplay trailer at summer games fest and if they do hope it looks greart
@@Voltricity435 God, I didn't even think about having cutscenes on the same level as Unleashed's opening. ARgh I don't want to give my hopes up but I'm praying that this isn't another Sonic cycle
Major step backwards with this game. I can't wait for the modding community to put these levels in generations so that everyone can see just how much better those mechanics were. No auto-pilot and a drift function. This game has way more problems than I have time to type but those are two major issues. Side note: That snake QTE should have been a chase seen where your'e running along its body and it strikes at certain points. how hard is it to let me play the game.
How did 06 fail in open level design? It's really fun to make your own pathways by crossing through the boundaries of the environment which is something 06 lets you do. It's the games' biggest saving grace for replay-ability.
+ TheZeldaExperienceWithin Eh, only like half of the levels even allowed for that and among them only crisis city, Kingdom Valley and End of the World were any fun.
I feel like if Classic Sonic wasn't in the game, there would've been more focus to Sonic and the Avatar (despite the huge amount of focus the avatar has), and overall the game just... doesn't feel fun when you're collecting everything and after you've nearly completed the Avatar customisation options.
I feel like Sega got way more protective of their brand after the Rise of Lyric debacle, and so they essentially had to meddle with the original Forces concepts to make sure it'd do well.
sonic forces left me depressed. When I started I played episode shadow for the first time I had the biggest smile on my face but a few hours later when I best the death egg robot I just felt drained. I then went back and watched egg reverie and the final hazard. that got me back to some sort of happy medium but I think it just made me more depressed that the adventure formula has never actually had a fantastic game. then I was reminded what ted said about the adventure series and it age compared to when generations came out. overall I think I just want to enjoy a truly good adventure game again.
don't get me wrong I have some other things going on in my life that are probably helping with that. but the last 3D sonic game with half decent control was sonic lost world and that game had a tube problem. or if you really want to get semantic the last sonic game with good 3D control, exploration, music, story, and climax was shadow the hedgehog. and we all know how bad that was. Sonic adventure 2 was my first video game ever and its a little depressing that If the current climate continues I'm never gonna be able to get a new experience like it. classic fans were able to get a massive amount of of things from the sonic hacking contest and on top of that freedom planet was also really good. I dono maybe I'm looking in the wrong places but the best 3D sonic to emulate the 2D style is just a tech demo made by a fan. sorry man its just hard to be optimistic about 3D sonic when such a half assed job was don with forces.
I think if Sega does make another Adventure game, it SHOULD keep the name Sonic Adventure 3, as it would boost sales tremendously. Adventure fans could make it for them same as Whitehead did for Mania. I mean look at the announcements for Shenmue 3 and Kingdom Hearts 3, it not only ended longtime memes but it brought back older fans who fell out of the series for both. Can you imagine what Sonic Adventure 3 would do for fans who stopped playing Sonic after the end of the Dreamcast era? The longer they wait to make the game, the less interested people will be especially with all the blunders that Sonic Team churns out year after year. I agree we need fresh blood. Just as Mania replaced Sonic 4, Sonic Adventure 3 can replace 06. Imagine that, a game that will save the reputation of the 3D games that the worst offender utterly demolished.
Maybe there was a time when a marketing tactic like this from Sega would work, but after Sonic the Hedgheog 4, there is too much distrust from the consumers to believe that any real effort was put into a game called "Sonic Adventure 3".
Johnny as a long time fan, I really must express how this is without a doubt, my favorite review you have ever created. It's not just with how much you've expressed how you felt about Sonic Team's laziness with this game but how we're at a point where we feel it's time for a change in development. As someone who loved Unleashed (half of it, even though I didn't hate the werehog), Colors, Generations, I was SO underwhelmed by this game that I remembering Iizuka's words about "wanting to push the series forward and not just give the fans what they want (granted that can mean a lot of things, lol), it makes me feel worried about the Sonic franchise. I KNOW Sonic can work in 3D, we all due despite naysayers. I know Sega is now a third-party developer but I still see Sonic as someone who could still produce a quality game that could be just as good as Mario. Especially for those that don't own Nintendo platforms and looking for the next best platformer. When I look at Mario Odyssey, I just feel blown away by what Nintendo and flesh young blood could do to make an amazing product, that makes me wish Sega and Sonic Team could do the same. I will always be a Sonic fan but I just wish Sega would grow some balls and make Sonic that edgy, cool character we all looked up to in the 90s. Here's hoping! Keep up with the reviews, man! One day I hope to be a reviewer just like you (I'm literally the same age as you as well, lol).
I hate that Mania had to tie in to this game because when Classic Sonic leaves at the end of this game, we don't even see him arrive back home. Mania had to have it's best ending lead into this game and couldn't have a fullfilling best ending. One cutscene in this game showing Classic Sonic get back would've been a lot more satisfying.
We don't even know if he really went back home. The guy literally just fades away! For all we know Sonic and friends could of seriously messed up the time space continuum thus obliterating Classic Sonic. XD
Spiriten XIII Hearing modern Sonic say "Dont worry, im sure we will meet him again" got me scared tbh. SEGA ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, let the modern/classic sonic tie-ins end here PLEASE.
Modern Sonic needs a refresh. I just cannot understand why they have *NEVER* tried to do the classic formula in 3D. Look, Classic Sonic games had the following: - Platforming sections which slowed down the gameplay - Momentum based physics (rolling at speed can give you extra locations, speed can help you reach other locations) - Spin dash to help reach locations or clear jumps - Exploration, extra paths - Collectibles (chaos emeralds, take the Mania approach for this) - Super Sonic as a reward - Tails and Knuckles with different options and routes available to them Sonic in modern games has almost none of these features. Yes he still has different routes and collectibles but that is pretty much it. SA1 got it the closest to the classic formula and needed some work. In my opinion, a successful modern Sonic title needs the following: - Platforming sections - Momentum based physics e.g. a high jump into a homing attack should give you the 'badnik bounce' - Spin dash to access extra locations - Multiple paths - Tails and Knuckles, offering different routes down the same stages - Mania style collectibles and special stages for Super Sonic I would love a game that literally took the classic formula into 3D. Sonic Adventure had momentum with the Spin Dash but had some control issues and glitches though the control issues were not as bad as Heroes and Shadow the edgehog. I know there are a lot of fan games and if I knew how to make a fan game, I would love to trial the concept but I have no idea where to start. Sonic in 3D I believe can work but the boost formula does not leave a lot of options.
TheMadPolarBear Yeah, classic in 3D would be amazing, but they would need to modernize it. I wouldn't want it to be *too* classic inspired, if that makes since. I get exactly what you mean, it's the perfect formula, Sonic, Tails and Knuckles should all play similar to Sonic with different abilities. However, I think a better way to go at it is: The classic Sonic gameplay formula, but in 3D, with Unleashed/Forces presentation. At least in my opinion.
TheMadPolarBear this is what baffles me. Sonic has never had his Super Mario 64 equivalent. The Adventure games came closest to translating the classic gameplay into 3D, but that only ever made up about one third of the game at best, and the boost games just aren't akin to the classics in terms of fundamental gameplay elements in the way that, say, Odyssey is to Super Mario Bros. With the extremely positive response to Mania's retro-inspired design, I think now would be a great opportunity for Sega to release "the 3D Sonic Saturn game that could have been." Take him back to his roots on more than a superficial level for once. A 3D Mania must surely seem like the most profitable course of action for the company at this point.
Honestly, I would love to see the classic formula in 3D. If they want to play it safe, they can take Sonic 2 or 3 and trial it in a 3D environment. Sonic 3&K as well as Mania is the best demonstration of the Sonic formula and if the levels translate well into 3D, then they can go ahead and try it. Level design is there so no need to worry about designing new levels, just need to nail the physics and classic Sonic gameplay in 3D.
Nice looking fan game. My only issue is the open level design, which from watching a few videos does not appear to make clear where you need to go. I'd rather a clear direction like the Classic 2D or Adventure Sonic stages
Knuckles leads the resistance? Why not Tails? He obviously has the intellect for such a position, whereas Knuckles has been a sucker for Eggman's deceptions since Sonic 3/Knuckles.
Tails "lost it", aka probably gave up on standing up to eggman and infinite. Also, the others like silver and amy do seem to keep knuckles in check to some extent.
Tails couldn't of lead the Resistance as stated before Tails literally lost all hope upon hearing about Sonic's defeat. He lost so much hope to the point to where he couldn't even defend himself against Chaos. All he could do is crouch in fear pleading for Sonic to come in and save him.
![โอ้เธอช่าง... - บี้เดอะสกา ft. ต๋อง เทวัญ (Prod. by ป๋าเพชร) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zbWhiLFmVL0/mqdefault.jpg)
"Get some fresh, young people for the Modern stuff"
That's exactly what Nintendo did with Odyssey, and look at how amazing that turned out.
This isn't me being sarcastic by the way, Odyssey is a fantastic game.
The thing is they did for this game, levels were designed by three new people.
This was apparently the same case for Zelda BotW as well.
MidnightLucario1
Those were just three inexperienced level designers that were being ordered around by an incompetent director, though.
Can we for the love of God have a discussion about sonic WITHOUT saying something about mario?
Fun fact: This game had less people working on it than previous boost style games. The director was Sonic Lost World's director (as well as Colors' director) and the people working on the level design were all rookies. The director for Sonic Generations is different from Colors and he had no part of this game as well as the level designers from Sonic Generations. I forgot to mention that the total number of level designers that worked this game were 3. I also forgot that the "rookies" actually never worked on a Sonic game before until this one. I also forgot that the producer of this game was the director of Sonic 06.
With that line up it's amazing it didn't end up like 06.
I love the 2D level design from Colors. I mean, they definitely put in too much 2D, but the design was very open with multiple pathways and it takes good advamtage of Wisps. I think that design team deserves more credit.
They lied. They said the designers of Gen were designers in Forces
That makes way too much snese...
But I thought it was the creators of generations and colors... what the heck no wonder it's getting bad reviews did they not know what people thought about Lost World.
Christ, that ending was unscripted? Impressive shit, Johnny. This is how you can tell how much a franchise means to someone - when you can go off on a passionate tangent without a single mistake. Sonic Team better listen to this guy.
BURRITO BILL It is never to late to watch a Somecallmejohny video though am I right? ;)
Caddicarus I agree because I found out thanks to AntDude that there was new blood for this game but they didn’t do a good job on the level design because the stages were short as far as I can tell (You’ll be seeing A or S ranks a lot) and worst of all they included Classic Sonic and ruined him now that’s going TOO FAR
Caddicarus what’s with the check mark next to your name
Kyle Campbell It means he's verified, meaning that it's easy to tell the fake Caddicarus' (because everyone fakes TH-camrs these days), from the real one.
Passionate?
To me, all it did was show just how much a nerd John is. Then again we are talking about the same guy who spends so much time on his youtube channels that he doesn't even have a healthy sleep schedule.
Sonic Team can "Live" with their mistakes, but can never "Learn" from them.
Indeed. I feel like if the series is gonna get another gameplay refresh. Or to make it sound simpler, leave the boost gameplay, and focus on something new. Sega should hire story writers that has the skills of Ian Flynn, and the level designer skills of... whoever is well known for making good level designs. Add new, talented voice actors. (But obviously keep Mike Pollock. He's too good of an Eggman to leave.) And they can also bring back the custom character, adding more species, selections, ect. I could just go on, but then this comment would be as long as a 11 minute cartoon.
To me it seem like this game should have been like shadow the hedgehog whereas your character can choose to be good or bad. That would have been better then the game doing it for you. I would like better if they copied what they did in Persona 5, whereas in that game you can name your character and yet would have liked it if you could name your character in this game and all the sonic characters introduced themselves your character because if it were something more like that then the game would be good for first timers. They'll be able to know every Sonic character and not make it seem like there just throwing you in there and telling you we need your help. Another idea would be to have some verity in the gameplay. Like Modern Sonic's gameplay can be adventure style, Classic Sonic can be the same, though don't make every stage have the same look, don't make him feel so heavy and the avatar stages can be generation style which is a good start on how the avatar should experience the level. All 3 characters should have an equal amount of stages. Attention to detail should be more seen through the game like for ex. show that Tails has totally lost it and make Sonic look all banged up to make it look like he has been torcher for mouths. Don't make every stage take control away from the player. Finally, put Blaze in the game because the fact that she isn't in this game means that Sonic generation isn't canon and they're fallowing up with 06. I mean if she was generation then she should be in this. One more thing and this is my opinion of the game, Forces is too much of a tease like you're having so much fun and then the fun gets taken away from you. It's like Sonic Team was too much of a bully to us with this game and boy do I wish I can have a talk with them about this. If there's anything you think they should have added then be my guest.
I can agree with you with almost a lot of things. For the blaze part, well she does come from a diffrent dimension. But then 06 screwed it up and had her from the future. She has her duties of protecting the sol emeralds. Though if infinite would take those and escape, then she'd have a good reason of being there. And for classic sonic, he wasn't needed at all. Tails should've been the second character instead. Focus more on him redeeming his independence, and not calling sonic to help, and hide like a wimp. The gameplay could be some sort of mix of his two spin off games, sure, not high speed, but can be entertaining. And for the love of god, they should've just kept infinite alive, like a returning villain for the games. Not just fight him 3 times, beat him with my little poney, friendship is magic shit, and him just disappearing.
Yeah, because Infinite was defeated it's like a lot was left out from him. I mean he's a new character, but people would like to learn more about him. I agree classic Sonic shouldn't have been in this game, it's like Sonic Team just wanted to make classic fans take this into action. Though, that right there would have been most brilliant idea for this game. If Eggman were to travel back in time and take the Sol emeralds then Blaze would fit right in. Heck, she can be the second character, that would've been even better because a lot of us would want to experience with her gameplay, though I doubt Sonic Team will do that much. Another thing is that Tails was my fav in Sonic games and would of liked it more if he were to stand up and act a bit heroic besides being a weakling. Forget generations and colors just give us another Sonic Rush game, this would totally be a good concept. Though, one question is should Silver be in this game?
That joke is is perfect
Ah yes, good old Edgy the Hedgy. Also, that unscripted part at the end definitely needs to happen. Fresh blood would be a blessing at this point.
Luis Almanza Fresh blood with experience playing sonic games and know what makes them good....
RadicalSoda on SomecallmeJohnny?
What is this?
A CROSSOVER Episode?
AMEN
I paused your video on this to watch this video.
RadicalSoda oh kewl im subscribed to you
I was very disappointed to see Tails cowering in fear every time a casual enemy showed up. Like wtf, did Sonic Adventure not happen or something? He was such a bad ass in that game.
Sega confirmed that Mania happens after Sonic 3. Sonic Adventure makes numerous references to previous games. Classic Sonic in Mania is the Classic Sonic from Forces. This gives off the implication (intentional or otherwise) that the Sonic from the Classic games and the Adventure-Black Knight games is a different Sonic from Sonic Colors-Sonic Forces.
but then, why is Chaos in the Sonic Forces world?
Because SEGA stopped giving a shit about continuity
Even Lost World, with angsty Tails he still had some liberty.
TheZeldaExperienceWithin this makes no sense, seriously, if mania happened after sonic three, and if it did happen before sonic adventure 1, which is what I’m guessing, doesn’t that mean chaos, shadow, and Zavok don’t exist yet? I get it’s the whole multi dimension thing but then if that was the case
Why is sega saying mania happened after sonic three, doesn’t that mean sonic forces happened after sonic 3? why didn’t they use time travel instead of dimensions IT DOESNT MAKE ANY FUCKING SENSE!
Sonic team, not sega, cause it’s up to sonic team to create the game, doesn’t give a shit about anything anymore, and until iizuka dies, none of this crap will end
IMO, they should make Sonic Lost world, mania and forces not canon, it’ll not make much of a difference but atleast it won’t mess with the story, I agree with Johnny in that there should be an adventure like-game, but I don’t think iizuka is not letting that happen cause he doesn’t want to stick on the past (even tho your using classic sonic)
It’s because he knows the game won’t be good, at all
That’s all I have to say
13:08 Come on, Johnny. This Sonic game wasn't "Rush"ed.
It was "Force"d.
0ctopusComp1etely HAH!
Stop.
HA!....He's right though.
It was actually 4ced.
It was fuck"ed
Sega: we will not make an adventure style game because we want to look forward and leave the past behind
(looks at classic sonic)
Me: *HMMMMM!!!*
"WHY THE FUCK U LYING? WHY YOU'RE ALWAYS LYING?"
.... kill me.
*looks at green hill
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
@Spark
They don't even need to make it an SA3, though. They just should try bringing back the Sonic Gameplay from Adventure and improve it.
@Spark
But it wouldn't have to be a sequel. It wouldn't even have to be related to the Adventure Game's stories.
HAAAA
Johnny being disappointed, sad, and begging Sonic Team to bring in new people instead of being as bitter as he was with 06 makes me unreasonably sad now.
Dubious Unknown
This game brought new people. However, they weren't very skilled. There were only three level designers. These three guys never worked on a Sonic game before.
William Sibo You're wrong.
One of them worked on Lost World.
Oh dear.
Hibub Games. But I liked Lost World though. Also wasn't he the same guy from Colors?.
Jeremy Knight No, someone compared the credits for level designers, no matching names.
Jeremy Knight
The only one who worked on Colors was the director. But he also worked on Lost World...
They tortured Sonic by forcing him to play Sonic Boom
That sounds worse then torture
Christopher Bittinger I too would be in extreme pain seeing myself with a scarf and extended legs.
Or maybe Superman 64?
No, they had sonic watch eggman as a stripper/poll dancer.
That, is TRUE touture.
But it's opposite day...
Sonic being tortured and having no scars, accusing of Zavok of not having fun? THEY WERE MAKING HIM PLAY BAD SONIC GAMES!
死後の世界64 SHIGO NO SEKAI 64 Lul
they were making him play sonic forces
I've always been a Mario fan but it's just so sad to see this. 20 years ago Sonic was on par with Mario. Now we have Mario Odyssey, a game with thousands of hours and so much care and love poured into it. A genuinely great experience all around. And then this? A budget title thats only 4 hours long? There's no contest. Mario is just in a completely different league now. Sonic deserves better.
Could not agree more.
Devin McLeod I'm a hardcore sonic fan even i admit Mario Odyssey is better.
Maybe it’s for the best that they don’t compete, cos I don’t want SEGA to think they can get on Mario’s level with one entry. If pressure gets to them, I can see them rushing another game.
Devin McLeod as overrated as i think odyssey is i can't lie that odyssey had way more things and was better than forces and this is coming from a sonic fan
I hate to say this, I don't think the 3D Sonic games have ever been as good as Mario. I enjoyed them, but they had a ton of flaws and filler content like emerald hunting and mech stages which frustrates me even when they first came out. The problem is Sonic team always seems to have to focus on a gimmick instead of using what works.
Blaze started as from another dimension, then from the future
Classic Sonic started out from the past, then from another dimension.
Is it Opposite Day?
My headcanon is that it was supposed to be Blaze but they changed it to Classic because nostalgia sells.
Actually no they weren't. The Japanese manual and website for 06 states that Blaze was transported to the future of Sonic's dimension and stays there to help the people fight against Iblis.
Her dialogue even suggests that she is the same Blaze because she clearly recognizes Sonic's description and seems to want to get back to Silver during the Wave Ocean level because she feels he's being tricked. Granted they do a 180 on that after that (Feels like it's two different versions of the storyline put together) but that was very much the implication they give off during those scenes.
I personally don't understand why people assumed she suddenly had a different backstory when her dialogue clearly suggests that they're one and the same. The fact she doesn't do anything with that aspect afterwards is a product of either poor planning or being an early draft of the intended final storyline, but that was clearly their intention when making those scenes.
I don't think SEGA understands how multiverse works.
They pretty much stated that Blaze being from another dimension is indeed canon as oppose to Sonic 06 stating that she's from the future.
It didn't retcon itself though? Having the games' timeline be undone doesn't retcon anything. A retcon is something that's impossible to happen thanks to previous storylines making its existence impossible thus making it non canon to the series timeline. Nothing in 06 is anything like that.
A retcon is when Point A has storylines that make the future releases the equivalent of officially endorsed fanfiction, not a storyline that has a time reboot at the end.
The false advertising of fighting Shadow and Chaos is what pisses me off the most
Gigi Is Here Its not false advertising, they never did say that you would fight them.
"Friends must unite to fight back against legendary villains" Explain this. SEGA did this on purpose.
SPOILERS:
They didn't say which villains, you fight against Eggman, Infinite, and metal sonic. They are all legendary, oh yeah you also fought Zavok.
You said it yourself. They didn't say which villains. Leaving room for interpretation. They knew, we would think of Shadow and Chaos, since both of 'em had entire games focused on them. I don't count Zavok, since he has no backstory whatsoever. And we didn't even know who Infinite was, besides the fact that he's edgier than Shadow, so I don't count him in either. It's a clear marketing move, but misleading as hell.
Some Random Dude Idk, they are fought in the story, just without player input.
Comparatively, Sonic Adventure and SA2 had complaints of 'being on rails' or 'playing itself', but having played Forces, Sonic team actually created or had the best formula for a 3D Sonic game with the adventure titles. If they polished up the gameplay, added variety that fits the character and the gameplay styles we expect of Sonic, I agree, it's time to visit an adventure style game with the polish and ingenuity of a modern Mario title. Here's hoping!
After playing the Adventure games recently, I think they haven’t aged well at all. The controls can be overly sensitive, they can be oddly glitchy, and the side characters’ gameplay was often slow and tedious. I think that it would be cool to see boost gameplay remixed into a Sonic Utopia-esque world.
More like people saying they weren't good should realize having flaws doesn't equal bad.
+A+Start
all of this is true.
This is a mindset I've never understood, that "Oh, we were just dumb children then who hadn't played enough games to know which ones were good or not! And if you go back and play those games now, you'll notice all sorts of problems you were blind to before and see how bad they really are!" It just sounds strange to me. I've gone back and played the adventure games recently, and I swear I just enjoy them more and more each time.
Which adventure gameplay? The town exploring stuff was complete rubbish. Treasure hunting, mech shooting, fishing, and slow Sonic suck. Sonic Adventure 2's over-reliance on auto-playing grind rails ruin the Sonic and Shadow stages of that game. Only Sonic and Tails in Adventure 1 are passable, and even then this isn't really a good thing. They aren't terrible but they aren't good either. A game based around that really needs to be refined before it can work, it shouldn't be made to be exactly like the old games.
"Welcome to Sonic Team we make games I think!"
"WHAT THE FUCK IS A SONIC?"
Yes, Puyo Puyo.
No NiGHTS is what we make
I'd refer to it as "interactive 3D CGI products"
Sonic Forces in a nutshell:
Fanservice,Fanservice everywhere
Ow the Edge
Behold my OC, Coldsteel the hedgehog
*I AM NOT WEAK*
I definitely agree that the Sonic Franchise needs some fresh blood. Get a new team together to work on Modern Sonic, let the Mania team continue working on Classic Sonic and let the current Sonic Team work on something else to give them a break from developing sonic games non stop. Maybe bring back some Neglected franchises to take Sonic's place for a while until Modern Sonic is ready to make a proper comeback.
I'd like to see that, have Sonic Team return to Modern on the 33th anniversary.
Marche800 Billy Hatcher!!!
I just wish they focus on the fun side of Sonic again
ShiningSilver100 I believe so, from what I've heard they're all new and there was only 3 people who worked on the level design
Yeah. I do feel like Sonic Team should let some younger folk take on Modern Sonic. Just look at Mario Odyssey. That was a younger team and it's an amazing game. I'd say Forces isn't bad but not a masterpiece.
A little information that might be useful to some people: Sonic Team was actually split into two teams sometime near the release of the 360 and ps3; Team A and Team B.
Team A has been credited for developing Sonic Unleashed(ps3/360), Sonic Generations and Sonic Colors.
Team B was the team responsible for Sonic Lost World and now Sonic Forces but it's also speculated that The Secret Rings and The Black Knight were also developed by Team B.
The trailers saying "by the team who brought you colors and generations" were definitely misleading as this was a different team from those games, and the people who did work on both forces and the other two aforementioned games were not in the same positions, and had less control over the final product.
Wether Team A is working on the next big thing is unknown, but i certainly hope they bring back Team A.
interesting. source?
MASONTALE over the years this information was revealed in interviews, and by closely watching who is credited for what, who worked on which parts, etc.
It's honestly quite interesting to see how sega structures their teams.
Pretty sure Colors and Generations weren't the same team. In fact, Colors and Lost World share more team members between them, namely the director, Morio Kishimoto (who previously also worked on Secret Rings and Black Knight). He also directed Forces.
So basically "from the team that brought you Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations" is misleading on multiple levels.
The Satellite i was unsure about colors, so i might've mis-placed by which team it was developed, i'm sorry
To be fair I don't have a source for this either other than the director's name and some hearsay. Feel like I might've read an article stating Colors and Generations were different teams but I dunno if I could dig it up. But Kishimoto's connections to Forces, Colors, Lost World, Black Knight, and Secret Rings would be one thread at least.
All I know is that apparently Colors and Generations both went into development immediately after Unleashed was completed. Though I'm not sure if that's evidence for different teams or same teams, but you gotta admit, Colors and Generations have a very different gameplay feel.
I'll just say this:
If diehard Sonic fans can make a better Sonic game (Sonic Mania) than his actual creators (Sonic Forces), then you know something's wrong.
Which is why I believe fans and developers of 3D Sonic games could do something too, with fan projects like Utopia, and other things to back up the potential.
Callum Jones-Hoey not a main series game like utopia. Thats to open with no sense of progression
To be fair, most of classic Sonic team is gone. So Sonic Mania came as the result of both bringing back classic Sonic and building a new classic Sonic Team.
it's really simple actually - sonic team has lost the passion for doing sonic games
David Dias forces was made by new people that never worked on a sonic game. The older people that worked on colors and generations moved up and didn’t work on this. Shame
“Sonic Forces doesn’t leave me wanting more, it leaves me asking ‘Where’s the rest of it?’”
That has got to be one of my favorite lines in anything.
Sonic Mania: half the price but two times better
no
FalconBoi OH YES
*10 times better
Your profile goes well with this comment
BargrosNintendoGames exactly
Always a wonderful review as usual from you bro.
Oh hey, what's up... So how's your day? Did Sonic do some more *HOOBA-DOOBA?*
Lets face it johnny typed this comment XD
Would it be great if there was a Sonic Mania style game in 3D like Sonic Adventure?
Is this the guy that did the sonic zombies
Yung Wun yes.
So when Johnny said "I wasn't just talking about the story," am I the only one who heard the raw disappointment in his voice?
Layla Francesca Rannick Yeah
Layla Francesca Rannick because it unfortunately was. You have no idea how many times I was frustrated to see an unnecessary boost pad when my boost gauge was full,have a spin dash or drop dash, or have a character that accelerates 0 to 100 real quick. And the amount of times I could've controlled Sonic/OC but the game does it for me
No you were not
He sounded so defeated, and it really hit home for me.
it hurts man
Sonic Forces...you to play Mania instead.
Just because I like Forces doesn't mean I don't think it could be a ton better.
Stuff We Play HAHAHAH
Stuff We Play i like forces too ,but yeah mania is better option instead
(slowly claps)
Look, a non-cancerous sonic fan who likes forces
Mania Plus*
None of this is good vector that’s why it’s called “sonic forces”
Lmao Damn.
and see it's funny because it's true.
It is okay not all bad but okay
i love the game though
Travis Plush Productions fun fact sonic forces had the code name of “Sonic Wars” if you look at sonic forces in taskmanager it says Wars as the game s name
+Fleetway “Heaven's Door” Sonic war......is hell
my biggest problem with the game is the absurdly short levels, its as johnny said, just when you finally start to enjoy yourself, the stage ends.....
they also removed the drift, one of my favorite things from sonic generations....now turning tight corners is automatic, which is as insulting as it can get.
"edit: personally i think the perfect lenght for a sonic stage is between 3 to 4 minutes, above 4 it starts to wear out its welcome like planet wisp in generations, and below 3 it becomes underwhelming like most sonic colors acts and this game"
its interesting how classic death egg clearly tries to be like the one from sonic & knuckles...but the music is just awful (i like most classic tracks of this game, but even i have to admit that one is shit) at this rate they should've just remixed the one from s&k
My thoughts exactly. It's a mechanic that was taken out but it added extra depth and a slightly higher skill ceiling. So much progress was made from unleashed to colors and then to generations but they took a major step backwards in my opinion. Generations had shorts levels but you were in control for the entirety of those levels , however this game FORCES you to turn and takes away control for those parts. it stops the boost function out of nowhere and does the work for you even as the avatar when I could have simply drifted around WHILE boosting. i want to play and learn the game not have my hand held around tight corners. i cant wait for the modding community to put these levels in generations so that everyone can see just how much better those mechanics were.
probably meant to increase replay value
Bocodamondo I love your work man! I hope everything works out for you soon!
Short levels can work, but all of the stages in Forces go nowhere with their designs or gimmicks.
They don't do much of substance with their things before they finish, leading to a very flaccid experience overall.
And sometimes the camera distance is ass. Sonic and avatar are either to small or are to blended in with the background it’s hard to tell where you’re at and just up dying or getting hit.
Shockingly, the IDW series, taking place right after Forces, fixes a lot of plot stuff. Blaze is back and even goes Burning during an arc, the characters are much more like themselves as opposed to, "none of this is good, Vector. That's why it's called war," and there's even a bit of a meta reference having to do with Neo Metal Sonic, to the ending possibly being unfinished.
Also, I don't know if it was intentional, but your use of Jim Carrey clips is super fitting.
Probably the coolest part so far is that they included the Babylon Rogues (seriously SEGA, WHERE'S SONIC RIDERS 4?!).
AortaPlatinum Yeah the writers are awful with Sonic.
Should we pretest to have the Ian Flynn's team be put in charge of writing the games?
@@paperluigi6132 i just bought the first volume recently and you saying the Babylon Rogues are in got me visibly hyped
And for some reason it’s still not canon
Squidward: "I mean, who wants to play the same level over and over again?"
Patrick: "Oh boy Green Hill zone!"
So? Mario always has to go through the grasslands in every single game he's in. :P
@@sonicmario64 In the generic New Super Mario Bros. games I guess, sure, but tons of people complain about how safe and samey those are all the time. And they are. Easily the most uninspired Marios. The 3D Marios however (which is what we should be comparing the 3D Sonic games to after all, not the 2D ones) all have new interesting locations, even in their beginnings. Sunshine is on a tropical island, Galaxy is in *space,* Odyssey has you start in wacky Tim Burton land and then go to a dinosaur world by possessing an electrical wire with his talking hat. I'm actually not sure how it could be any more varied honestly. Not like any of this matters anyway, just because another series _apparently_ does a bad thing too, it doesn't make it good. But let's say Mario _did_ always regurgitate the same level. Then Sonic would _still_ suck more for doing it because Sonic has far more distinct levels and locations. Mario's thing is worlds based on basic things classically, like the water level the sky level the lava level the castle etc. The 3D ones of course mix things up a bit. Sonic however has very visually distinct zones, with fun names and unique enemies in each of them. Each zone has it's own distinct music, aesthetic and Eggman boss at the end. They have their own level gimmicks and hazards, it's kind of a staple of the classic series (which they are constantly referencing and aping). Reusing one of those is so much more noticeable then just having another grass level. Sonic just being on grass isn't the problem, it's that Green Hill Zone specifically is constantly in the new ones over and over for some sort of pathetic nostalgia whoring. Mario does the nostalgia thing too sometimes, just never to the extent the Sonic series has been doing it in recent times. Generations, Basically Lost World, Mania and Forces have _all_ started with Green Hill. 3 of those also have Chemical Plant in them as well, 2 of them have it as the second zone. It's just getting ridiculous.
@@Squishito JESUS
I play city escape on SA2B and it's unhealthy but I needed rings
@@AnthonyKusanagi101 I've played every level in that game like 300 times so don't feel too bad. It's kind of designed to be replayed. Also City Escape just never gets old.
5:57 What?! Wait a minute, you don't fight Chaos? That's so dumb! For fucking sake, he was one of the selling points. God fucking dammit!
Zona Nula, you don't fight Shadow either and the last Infinite boss fight is a rehash of the Metal Sonic boss fight. For Some reason Zavoc's boss fight is actually pretty good.
And most of the bosses are just warm-ups for the final boss. Classic Sonic's phase is the Egg Dragoon battle in Green Hill, the Avatar's part is kind of based off Zavok's fight, and the final phase is Infinite/Metal Sonic. And it's also ANOTHER copy/paste of the Colors final boss.
Sega seems like the type of douchebags to put a chaos episode as dlc or some shit like that
Matthew Rubenstein I agree
Shadow the Edgehog and knuckles.
Knuckles the Truant. How's that Master Emerald!? Oh wait, it disappeared into the VOID!!!!
Featuring Dante from the Devil May Cry series!
Nav_Ebon yes
How about replace knuckle with omega
*Edgy the Hedgy
The amount of times Jim Carrey pops up in this video is probably why he was cast as Eggman.
Looking at a couple playthroughs, it looks like the developers did a good chunk of work, but partway through, they just got tired and said, "whatever, this is good enough." It's seen in the cliched writing, the short stages, and the half-assed appearances of the wider Sonic cast. The game wasn't made out of passion like Sonic Mania, but instead looks like it was made out of obligation.
i felt the same way, it feels like it was made with a checklist of "stuff people liked in previous games", but with no care or understanding of why those things worked in the first place
That would be because of time restraints, the game itself was only made in a year.
They only spent a year on this game? That helps explain why it’s so mediocre.
@@Michael-590 I'll look into this more later, but a lot of peoplr say that they actually lost the code for the original Forces half way in development so they had to rush it to meet the deadline in the remaning year they had
Huh, I must have overlooked that part. I thought that it had something to do with losing a lot of older, more experienced staff that worked on games like Sonic Generations.
I have an idea that could have made the story 10 times better. Classic sonic being just a figment of tails imagination.
A channel known as Shadow759 made a video called "Sonic Forces theory has tails lost it?" It's mainly a joke video, but the theory is something to think about.
10x0 is still 0
AntonyPancake Damn
Why
Goddammit, they missed such a great opportunity! Come on Sega, wake up! Most of the Sonic fans are 30 something years old! You can get a bit more edgy than a Mario shitty clone games.
I agree with what you said at the end while not doing literally adventure 3 but do the sonic tails and knuckles adventure 1 style gameplay while also bringing other characters such as shadow, espio, rouge, etc.
Travis Plush Productions Let's stick to the main trio so Sonic Team doesn't have to feel overwhelmed.
So I probably have a unpopular opinion but I feel like having sonic boost knuckles glide and punch and tails fly could be good in an adventure game just make the boost less o.p. (like you can destroy enemies but you still get hurt by projectiles)
Shizzy Sevven idk about that, I mean, Sonic 06 wasn't an adventure game but you could definitely see the similarities.
popkornkid I was thinking the same, or they could just make it like the speed shoes so you could still control Sonic while going at a quicker speed.
they should remaster both adventure titles, before even jumping to the lets just make sonic adventure 3, this people clearly are oblivious to what makes sonic... sonic
More like: “Sonic Team Forces out another one”
Yes, I’m aware I’ve made this joke before but my ego is fragile and the only thing keeping me from ending it all is validation from my friendly peers on the internet
God I see you everywhere.
Yeah, so I’ve heard
Pretty sure this is the 4th time I've seen you say this about this game, keep the originality coming my dude.
I saw you on Dunkey's Sonic Forces video
SaiyanGoku9001 Originality is hard
Hearing Knuckles' "war" line made me laugh so hard. I don't know if it's the delivery, just the fact it's Knuckles of all people saying it or both but it is hilarious. (To me at least.)
"SHUT UP!!!" - Knuckles
Why's it funny???.
His tribe was In a war and didn't live to tell the tale.
So Knuckles didn't wanna repeat.
Damn son you uploaded quick. Also I agree, Blaze should have been in the game, she's one of the best characters and so underused!
Blaze has her own stuff to do at here own dimension there really is no reason for her to be there in this game Sliver does because if he doesnt help bad future and such.
But the events of Sonic 06 were erased from history, so Silver should have never met Sonic and Co.
But then Sonic Generations treats the events of 06 as canon so Silver met Sonic anyway.
But Sonic 06 says that Blaze is from the future and not an alternate dimension so what the hell is the deal with Sonic Rush and Rush Adventure?
You know what, fuck the Sonic mythos.
Joe Robinson Sonic Rivial had sliver in it which reconed his story
Joe Robinson You do know that sonic Rivals 1&2 are canon right?
sonic rush adventure came out after 06 so 06 isn't an option for why is blaze not here
Here's the first step in making a good sonic game sega.
1. Get rid of the fucking automation and give us full control.
wasn't SA1 and 2 filled with automation? i mean i know its far better then forces QTEs, but sonic is still automated in those games
Yup, you're right. Though it never felt that intrusive in those games. They cranked it up way too much in forces where it just feels like you're watching sonic instead of playing him.
I remember when the half assed criticisms towards Sonic was just holding forward to win.
It's a me You mean like Sonic 06?
It's a me that would indeed be a start
This game I have mix feelings.There was a spark but sadly it didn't ignite.I'm fine with it but wish it was better. I do like mostly the avatar parts with the variety of the wispons and the customization, Modern Sonics levels were ok but were too short(same with the other levels), and finally classic Sonic levels ain't no Mania for sure.Can't really stand the classic sonic level music in this game.Right now I'm just playing it to unlock clothing and see other avatars with the SOS missions.
burgerkingJ When I watched this review, I kept saying to myself, " Why is the game like this?" or, "How did this happen?" It really quite unfortunate too. Just like Johnny said, there are certain areas of the game that seem interesting but are never fully fleshed out. I just can't imagine what was going on with Sonic Team over that 4 year period. This game should have been so much better than it turned out to be. What happened?
Hate how the Sonic Twitter page hyped this game up so much and it's just average...
riotrandy678 credit to the twitter page..... it shows how good Aaron Webber is at his job.
EV3R ST0RM That honestly worries me. Sh*t like these honestly makes me wonder what they were thinking when advertising this game.
Did they feel bad for straight up lying to their fans or did they not care at all about them and only cared about the money they were gonna get?
And that makes me think, is Arron Webber playing an act, pretending to care, or does he himself feel terrible for what he has done?
I hope it’s the latter because Webber seems to nice to be a money grubbing asshole.
Jackeboy maybe no one over in Japan cares anymore, but I really believe Aaron does.
EV3R ST0RM ok A: WOW I was not expecting a reply that quick and B: I do believe that too. It’s just sometimes you need to stop and think about these kinds of things.
But yeah, Aaron’s too much of a cinnamon roll to not feel bad about it.
Jackeboy I do think about it. And I still believe Aaron cares. He is a reason I believe sega America should be in charge of sonic rather than sega japan.
well turns out
believe it or not
this actually WAS made by new blood
yeah turns out Sonic Forces was made by a bunch of Newbies
meanwhile the original designers were moved up to higher positions in the company
yep, even after they promised the people who made Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations working on this game
turns out the designers never worked on a sonic game, Period
They need to be shown how to make good gameplay for sonic then
monster25man They need to be new AND have a working understanding of how Sonic games work (i.e. be fans of the series). I do like that Sonic Team is smart enough to bring in new developers but just because their viewpoints are fresh doesn't mean they're informed; what Sonic Team needs is more developers who GIVE A DAMN about Sonic.
Actually, one of them DID work on a Sonic game previously!
it was lost world
Pfft. Talk about false advertising...
monster25man
Actually, they have the director of Gens working on the fucking Mario & Sonic series now.
"Nope, sorry Johnny. but we want to move forward with the Sonic franchise. We aren't looking to go back just to please a small group of fans that liked heavily flawed games like SA/2. Enjoy more of your Green hill. Deal wit it."
-Sonic Team
'06 was 11 years ago, and they've more than made up for it with Unleashed (daytime), Colors, and Generations. Forces was mediocre at worst and decent at best, yet people are acting like it'll kill the franchise.
And also give us more opan space No more boast to win
Alex Pindell I think I understood most of your comment, but it's kinda hard to comprehend. Can you possibly be more clear with your comment?
★ Froggie Animation ★ ok so you're gonna ignore the original trilogy, Sonic Adventure 1 & 2, and Sonic Mania? Also Boom was made by a third party developer with a gameplay style that really wasn't Sonic.
★ Froggie Animation ★ I'd argue that Sonic Lost World is pretty decent, certainly not bad. Sonic CD is pretty damn good as well. Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic '06 were rolling dumpster fires, I'll admit that. And yes I don't include Sonic Boom as part of the franchise because of the reasons I listed. It's like saying Sonic Shuffle is a main series game even though the gameplay is so different.
The Sonic Unleashed (AKA "Boost") Style of gameplay is fun but I agree they should go back to the Adventure Style.
The Invisible Mare you mean the sonic colors style
Akeem Taylor Nah, Unleashed had, in my opinion, fantastic stages.
Akeem Taylor No I mean Sonic Unleashed. It came out with that style of gameplay first. It was only ruined by that only being half the game and the rest being those boring Werehog stages.
The Invisible Mare how music like the adventure style was lost world?
I've never played lost world
Seeing him rant at the end about what the next game will be like after everything we've seen with Frontiers is wild.
Fax sonic frontiers is definitely the sonic mania for us modern fans
Wouldn't say it knocked it out of the park but it was still a great experience and if SEGA continues with this new formula, they can make a masterpiece.
Unleashed was peak
@@fredrickbarnes8568Hell no… its good buy don’t say it like that lmfao.
@@HyperComet369no defiantly mania level
Sonic Forced me to not pay alimony.
Sonic Forced Yoshi to commit Tax Fraud.
Sonic Forced me to commit insurance fraud
Sonic Forced Kirby to pay his taxes
[PAY ALIMONY]
[PUNCH]
Sonic Forced me to pay $40 to play his game
Finally more people started saying that Sonic Adventure styled games need to return.
People have been saying this for more than 10 years now, what the fuck.
It's not a matter of the game's style, it's a matter of sheer incompetence on the maker's side. They could make a game with Adventure-style gameplay and it would still be shit.
Not quite, there were (are?) tons of people with that stupid "SONIC NEVER WORKS IN 3D"
Yeah, I still keep seeing those individuals. I wonder what's going on in their heads...
bandwagoning. Honestly just bandwagoning.
ArtFenixAsordis its the 20th anniversary of sonic adventure
Plus it could be remade as a new game.
The fact that the main reason on why Infinite is the way he is, because Shadow called him weak is pathetic. Here's how i would've done it. My reason on why infinite has gone over to the dark side (and the deep end) is because he wanted to get revenge on Shadow for wiping out his entire squad and avenging said squad, and going after ANYOJE that shadow knows. shadow calling him weak was the straw that broke the camel's back, thus causing infinite to go insane after feeling intense guilt for not trying harder alongside his comrades. Then he would go after anyone that shadow knows which is why he would go after Rouge and Omega, shadow's closest comrades (using that word a lot huh?) He eventually met up with Eggman and push comes to shove, the two strike a deal to achieve each other's goals, Eggman gives Infinte the Phantom Ruby so that he can destroy shadow once and for all IF Infinte destroys Sonic. But that's how i would handle infinite's story in Forces.
Not bad at all!
That definitely sounds better than what ST delivered.
This actually sounds like it has effort put into it.
"This game just... exists." Yep
15:25 Actually they did bring in some new blood. THe level designers of Forces are new members of Sonic Team. Why they didn't bring in the level designers of Generations is beyond me.
Forces isn't a bad game. I'd play this and the Wii U/PC version of Lost World over the other Meh SOnic games like Heroes, Shadow and Black Knight. but FOrces could've been so much more.
It couldn't have. Sega and Sonic Team miss developing for a Sega console.
Sega United So be it... Sonic adventure in the next 20 years.
Yea, but we need new blood that knows what they're doing.
We need fan developers that loves Sonic not random people from Japan that doesn't give a shit about Sonic and just want a paycheck. And the inconsistency of keeping their good development teams is really damaging Sonic right now.
No we need the great Lang and murasaki fox or supersonic 68. That's good new blood.
When a classic fanboy like Johnny is asking you to pull the plug on the annoyingly pointless nostalgic pandering, you know you've milked the old days dry.
If only other classic fanboys and fangirls were liked that
Sonic Team: "Shit we made a bad game, quick make something good to fix it!!"
*Good game happens*
ST: "Ah yes good, now make something bad again so we can keep the balance!!"
I like how you emphasized it's not bad... it's just kinda there. What needs to happen more than anything is for Sega itself to step in and pull in Odyssey by hiring new people who grew up with this series and create that new adventure style game. I think the current sonic team at this point has proven they don't care or at least are incompetent to make sonic be anything more than fine, so until Sega steps in and does something; we'll probably end up getting the same shit
This game was done by new people. Level designs were done by 3 new guys
MidnightLucario1 He means new people that grew up with Sonic.
Even the writers barely knew about Sonic lore... I wish they either did extensive research or assisted by competent Sonic fans.
And who says these guys didn't? You think you have to grow up with Sonic to make good games alone?
Finally...Blonic is officially canon
how embarrassing
What about Shrek?
+FlameofUdun And Gyrohedgie453 Is in an actual playable character in a Sonic Game. Being available for multiplayer in Sonic Colors doesn't count.
Nathaniel Arndt at first I misread op as referring to Bionic, Chris-Chan's basketballin' oc.
Finally my original character coldsteel the hedgehag is cannon BWHAHAHAHAHAHA (do nawt steal)
What a fucking world.
SEGA basically includes a fan game into canon by tying it into an official sega game.
The offical SEGA game is the one that feels undeserving of being connected.
actionvolcano Shut up they put hard work into it
TheRedKnightMC “Hard work” lmao. The mediocre reception Forces is getting doesn’t sound like hard work.
RainbowFalcon Regardless, it can't feel good for them to see so many average/poor review scores.
Having played both Mania and Forces... Mania feels like they poured years of love and attention into it, whilst Forces feels like the neglected half child that the Sega family hides in the cupboard under the stairs because they can barely be bothered to feed it. Sure, having a create a character thing was neat, but the gameplay was all exceedingly bland and short, and you're literally just being pushed along without even doing anything like 80% of the time. Thats not a game. Its a woosh simulator.
So yeah. The "Hard work" of most likely outsourcing to inexperienced developers on lower than average pay, with less than average allotted work hours to the deadline. I'm not saying that Forces COULDN'T have been great, but if they actually put more time, money and effort into it, and perhaps delayed it a year to make it fleshed out and feel like a finished game, sure. But admit it. it's Boom all over again. Hell, the enemies don't even DO anything. Even fodder enemies in earlier games would feebly attempt a swing at you. These bots are all bland and literally stand still.
RainbowFalcon Then why would they take 4 years to make this game?
I love how you used the Jim Carrey cuts. It’s like silly foreshadowing for the upcoming 2019 sonic movie 😂🤣
Couldn't agree more with your unscripted bit, Sonic Team just feels like they're making games because they have to but Sonic deserves way better. There needs to be serious shakeups in SEGA.
God that last segment, so real and so true. I honestly thought that maybe Sonic Team would get the help of the Mania team, but the part of the game which I honest to God thought was there only for quality control, to be sure it was good, ended up being the most half assed attempt at recreating the classic games we've ever seen. Worse that Sonic 4 Episode II, but still, not awful, just so mediocre and uninteresting.
Nice to hear a critically unbiased review of this game after reading the abomination that is the comment section of the official Sonic the Hedgehog TH-cam page, full of people fighting over how Sonic Forces is either the best game ever made or a pile of garbage. People saying that Mania is a terrible game aimed to leech easy money from '90s fanboys just makes me sad how little some people must really understand properly functioning game design.
Thanks for being smart, Johnny. Loved the review. :)
SheerSonic keep in mind, most of the people you saw raging were little kids.
Sonic fan all his life but has an unbiased view. Kek
Honestly, that description of Mania is kinda the same as mine.
YourRegularGamer nice bait
I like sonic forces the stages are short but there still fun to go like Sonic Rush or Colors but I wish classic sonic wasn't there he really has no reason to be there at all. The avatar stages are definitely the best of the game and the bosses where great other than Metal sonics and it does feel like some stuff was not finished i.e the Null dimension it was there for 5 secs and solved it had no point. Sonic Mania is the better game though but my only complaint with Mania was it went overboard with the references to past games but at least it did new things with them in there Act 2s along with new zones and great level design and bosses.
Yes i think Modern Sonic needs fans to work on the games too.
Look at fan projects like "Sonic World" an Adventure style Sonic game with multiple characters to play as and you can even play it up to a team of 3 like heroes.
Sadly Izuka thinks an adventure style game would "hold the franchise back" despite he himself is holding the franchise back by cramming Classic Sonic and Green hill in every game.
Not hating classic but he's kinda overused at this point plus he should be reserved for 2D games for the classic era style.
Izuka said the adventure style gameplay will hold the series back because he doesnt want to admit he's afraid to use the adventure gameplay again
That's why I Dub Izuka the quote on quote "Rotten Mouthed Fool"
I should probably note that i don't support Sonic World anymore... Some controversial stuff happened that basically got me evicted... :(
Anyways yeah, Iizuka apparently would rather listen to detractors and critics over real fans.
Why can't we get a Sonic game where they only focus on one style of play and polish the shit out of it. Instead of having multiple mediocre styles.
i think its because 06 happened and they won't go back to the adventure formula even though the formula ITSELF was not the problem
We need adventure play styles to come back.
The only 3d games that have done that are shadow and heroes. I find it obvious to only make ONE play style.
Modern sonic and the oc play similarly but the controls and the level design are too simple to be fun.
i think the different playstyles MIGHT be a result of fan requests resulting in the fanbase being split on what they want and sega can't please a majority
Mngalahad. That is true. Too bad none of them were good.
I think the main problem is that sonic team tried to cater to all different branches of the fan base and completely lost focus on creating something original with the modern era.
NovaBeast92 How? Mania for Classic fans turned out well. You mean the million gameplay styles of Modern Sonic?
D R exactly. I should've been more clear about that.
NovaBeast92 At this point, they shouldn't bother. There is no way to put Adventure, Lost world, and Boost in one game and work. Pick one and go with it.
I actually feel sorry for sonic team because I'm really concerned in what type of 3D Sonic game they're gonna make and be about? The fans are like Scribble Scrabble, so its kinda hard on what their gonna do...
They tried that with Sonic Lost World and it received mixed reviews.
Hey Sonic Team. 14:24 You're welcome! All jokes aside, I think you hit the nail on the head in the end. I think the boost formula just isn't doing Sonic any justice. I mean hell, imagine working on a level pathway for months with beautiful level aesthetics.... only to have the player fly through it in less than a second with the boost button. That's why I believe Sonic Team is drained. The boost formula is too automatic for the player. And building levels for that formula sounds like hell. Its time to meet the middle man and do the adventure formula. Great review Johnny! -Sam :)
Sam's Procrastination Station As someone who really likes the boost formula, even I must agree with you. That is a good point.
Yeah, and risk another '06 with the adventure formula. :)
^If they don't rush, they can do it!
GaiaX5
06's Problems had nothing to do with the formula it was working with.
I feel like Sonic Generations did a pretty good job at meeting this middle ground with a lot of its levels.
They need to give ma boi Silver another chance. (Sonic Adventure 3?)
06 is Adventure 3...
Haneef Harrington Yeah, I guess so.
Not really if anything Heroes is adventure 3
I wish I can see Silver playable again but Silver nor Blaze has nothing to do in the events after adventure 2.
Mushrunner True Dat!
Gotta agree with ya on that one. I've always hated the non stop wise cracking these days with Sonic, it was endearing when it was done at certain moments not when everything that comes out of his mouth is a wise crack. It straight up pissed me off when he's still doing it after being tortured for 6 months and is aware the world is in ruin Because eggman made him watch.
what makes me upset is that iizuka said no adventure 3 because "they dont want to repeat themselves"
Even though Forces is just a repeat of Generations.
I find that ironic considering they've been rehashing the same zones over and over again.
he means repeat 06
HyperFrost220 even still, they repeated themselves with Mania
And that game is friken amazing
I would love another adventure style game because it has a crapload of potential...
But Sonic Team just needs to sit down and truly focus on making it great and enjoyable with as little flaws as possible
He actually said something along the lines of "not yet", not a hard "no". His line of thinking was that an Adventure 3 would make people happy, but he'd rather make people ECSTATIC with something unexpected first in order to show people what the Sonic series is capable of being. You know how he could accomplish that? *_QUIT._*
I’m back here after sonic frontiers and it’s dlc. It’s crazy how far we came from the disappointing forces to the legitimately great frontiers
Everything about this game feels shallow and uninspired.
They need to *STOP PLAYING IT SO SAFE.* Sonic Team and SEGA *NEED* to stop giving us half-written and half-baked stories, they need to deliver a full and cohesive storytelling, with good interesting plots that get fleshed out. *STOP* making Sonic happy 99% of the time, it literally downplays *ANY* dangerous situation he's and virtually kills *ANY* tension and drama. Dial back on the automation in the levels, I've been playing Sonic for decades, I've played almost every game besides the weird Game Gear ones, and Sonic Forces feels like only 3 things happen during gameplay: 1. It's a straight line with enemies lined to get boosted/mowed down. 2.QTE (Quick Time Event) just waiting for the right time to press a button or button mash, game plays itself afterwards basically. 3. The controls are fully taken away from the player, you just watch Sonic running and doing stuff, but it's not "You" the player, doing *ANYTHING*. ENOUGH with the Green Hill and Chemical Plant, it was good in Generations, and Mania was pushing it a little (Mostly because Christian Whitehead WANTED to do *ALL* original levels, but fucking Izuka got the final say, and he wanted to do the "Nostalgia Pandering" with the 60/40 ratio of old levels to new levels), but it's time to fucking stop showing Green Hill, this isn't a damn Mario game, Green Hill doesn't have to be the "De-Facto" 1st level or the tutorial level, and Chemical Plant doesn't have to be the "De-Facto" 2nd level to Green Hill. Get Classic Sonic out of here, he was useless both in the story and in gameplay, both Modern Sonic AND the Custom Avatar have 2D in their respective levels, hell even more than the automated 3D, having Classic Sonic's 2D was completely redundant and unnecessary, plus his physics are still bad, maybe even worse than Generations Classic Sonic, so what's the point in having him playable if he doesn't play like how he should? *Just stop using him!* Anyway, there's more I wanted to say, but I think that's enough ranting, of course this is just how I feel how Sonic Forces stopped itself from being a great Sonic game.
palindinX I couldn’t agree more.
Or even better. Say fuck off to any serious story because Sonic does NOT work with a serious, gritty story. I mean for fuck's sake he's a cartoony blue hedgehog fighting a fat man with a poofy moustache.
+Stephen Carter As long as they don't try to be too cringy and embarrassingly lame like in Sonic Colors (Baldy McNose-hair) or in Sonic Lost World (Eggman, you bite!), I'll be okay with them not being too serious in a Sonic game. I just want a good story that does Sonic and his friends justice to their characters.
"STOP making Sonic happy 99% of the time, it literally downplays ANY dangerous situation he's and virtually kills ANY tension and drama."
What do you mean. It's not jarring at all to go from "Eggman's been torturing Sonic for 6 months" to "NEXT TIME BRING CHILI DOGS GOTTA GO FAST WAY PAST COOL!" This is perfect storytelling. 👌
I have to say though, I would rather have cringy and embarrassingly lame lightheartedness like "Baldy McNose-hair" than cringy and embarrassingly lame dark serious time like Gerald Robotnik execution videos or the entirety of Shadow the Hedgehog.
Just have some good characters, emotianal depth and just a slight sprinkle of darkness.
Sonic and the black Knight, Sonic Unleashed, Sonic adventure and even Sonic heroes in some instances did it very well.
I know how you feel Juan. God, this game looked and played mechanically mediocre. And that's just it: it's mediocre and can not live up to the expectations.
MoonSpirit Git gud then
i love the game though
FalconBoi how old are you?
+jay stinger what does it matter how old he is? if hes a kid, hes a kid let him enjoy the game
thanks
It is really weird how the sonic series can provide the best or the worst experience at the same time.
I don't give a rats ass if Mania ties in with this. Forces is not canon as far as I care. But then again, what even is canon at this point...
Its Sonic the "canon" makes no fucking sense anyways
@@Tubular_dude_20y_ago It had a coherent canon from the OG trilogy through CD to Adventure 1. Adventure 2 fails as a sequel due to it only partially remembering key lore. After '06, the series went full Self-Contained Kids' Comedy Cartoon Mini-Movie Line.
@Luke Bourne You're putting it as though someone'd be WRONG to refuse it.
Sonic starting with Adventure 2 treated Sonic's friends as having outright _regressed._ Forces drives that implication home, especially in the context of Mania being an alternate immediate followup to the Genesis games.
@@CarbonRollerCaco I agree I had meant something along the lines of doesn't my make any sense anymore
No Johnny, don't! Frassupo is going to flip out on Twitter again.
Did he post already?
I eagerly await his foretold wrath in this comment section. Surely he will bring down the entire channel and single-handedly discredit Johnny forever!
The only reason I’m scanning the comments section!
It's too late, I've already drank my own tears
TonberryJack some butthurt Sonic fan who doesn't want Johnny to criticize Forces
Well, there were only 3 level designers, 2 of which were NEW and the other one was from lost world :/
Spider Ninja 4 years of development and no wonder the level design are short. I felt they should've been long like sonic unleashed day time stages.
fabian market, they should have been at least as long as Generations modern stages with less QTEs
fabian market more like 3 years of developing another Hedgehog Engine for the game and the concepts stuff and 1 year for the actual game itself
That explains a lot actually. They should of just gotten the developers/level designers for Unleashed and Generations. They are most competent to make a good boost forumla game.
Spider Ninja Spent two years on the graphics but 2 minuets on the level design
Damn... I just love how this guy talks. Some of the best damn reviews come out of this channel. Good job as always. Pity Sonic Team can't seem to really care or understand what Sonic is all about
5:45
Johnny: The gang finds out that Eggman has been torturing [Sonic] for the six months he's been gone.
Silver in game: No way! That's excellent!
Yeah. It truly is.
Sonic gets tortured, he appears to be the same old sonic. Know what game did torture well? Jak and daxter 2. Jak act nothing like he did in one cuz he was put through hell and wanted to kill. I’m like if you want to torture sonic, make his personality reflect that.
@@sandywolfr26 Sega would never allow their mascot to end up "always angry, just like another hedgehog we know", to quote Sonic X Eggman.
Gameplay recording paused because you entered a blocked scene
TheAmazingDolphin hate it when that happens.
You right :)
TheAmazingDolphin "Want to let me out so I can join the fun? Of course Not! YOU HATE FUN SONY!"
What I want, as weird as it sounds, is 06. But as it was intended. With a coherent plot (mostly the same), polished gameplay, and things like that. Every time I play, I just see what could have been.
MetalJordy 100% agreed.
MetalJordy 06’s plot was everything but coherent.
There is a generations mod that kinda does this. It's so far the closest we'll have to seeing a competent sonic 06.
06 is my favorite sonic game. It combined adventure and speed without the boost function that makes the gameplay flat and dull. The story needs some tweaks and the physics need polishing, but when you look at it at its core, it's a pretty solid game. It just needed to be finished. The game they released wasn't even the latest build of the game.
+dbzfan1121 I think the PC remake will be more competent once it's finished.
The plot was mostly coherent, it just got messy with some of the smaller details, especially in Silver's scenario.
Adding classic Sonic in was such a huge mistake
Not really. It wasn't fundamentally bad, just a lot of bad decisions.
No no no, the fan weeb character adding was a mistake
fan weeb? More like Furry avatars they are tons cringier
Demon Lord Ghirahim The fact that this game came out right after Mania was a mistake. Just shows SEGA's inadequacy in comparison to fans.
Marku912, just after? Mania has been out for close to 3 months, that isn't really just after...
They do need to do another adventure styled game. With good story and memorable music and nice animated cutscenes. Also decent character development would be nice lol
Thats exactly what i want
06 functionally was that, but not executed well. But at least the music then was good.
Actually, here's the shocking thing, most of the people working on forces were new.
This is true
The director is the guy who directed Colours, the producer was the one who directed 06. The director usually has a bigger say the game's direction. Although, I have to agree, GET RID PONTAFF ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!
Just a theory, the lack of staff might be due to SEGA and not Sonic Team. Mainly because Sonic Team might not be the only team suffering due to lack of staff. SEGA of Japan even gave another smaller company their male idol phone game.
"Yet for some bizarre region, Silver's here so I had to fill in the gap somehow!" I died laughing at this for some reason!
Also, Silver DLC please to explain this question?
The prequel comic of Sonic Forces explains that Silver (like Classic Sonic) was pulled into this mess thanks to the Phantom Ruby.
ToadPlayer64 I thought the events from Sonic 06 never happen.
Shadow 1233's Corner They didn't. The Silver we see past that is from the Rivals games.
ToadPlayer64
"To creating a spiffy bird called Frank who has good fashion sense, *but has seen the end of days* "
Okay, where's that butthurt guy?
*later edit) For anyone in the future who gets confused by this comment.
here's a link (hopefully twitter will still be up.) twitter.com/Somecallmejon/status/929156542909353985
Seriously! I even got my popcorn ready lol
Who?
yall mean darksanic?
Grounded with no Internet for a week.
What the fuck???!
Maybe they should just let fans make their 3d Sonic games as well...
PTKickass and TwilightZoney are great modern examples.
THANK YOU!!!!! AND FINALLY!!!!! SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS HOW A MODERN SONIC GAME SHOULD BE!!!!!!!!
Exactly I feel like there is potential for 3d sonic. They just need to hire modern fans who have passion in making a open world gameplay style. They can do it. They need to try.
TapOutTheSonicFan78 then those same modern fans would bitch fit about it being open world that they created. There is no winning with this fandom.
TapOutTheSonicFan78
Heck I thought 06 had potential but look at it, arguably one of the worst games in existence, but I hear the demo was amazing with no flaws, this isn't that bad but I'm getting a similar vibe, maybe it came out too soon like 06 too, should have pulled a Breath of the Wild, yeah we wait 3-5 years (wasn't it announced like 5 years prior and they kept giving dates only to be delayed?) but if it becomes an amazing game it's worth it.
MrGojira95 ENOUGH WITH THE ADVENTURE GAMES ALREADY!! Just stop!!
Mlpfanboy I could understand that but still screw the fandom. They don't even know what 3d sonic game they want. It's always a mash of war and its unhealthy. They should just focus on a good 3d sonic game and try. They don't have to listen to every fans out there cause some are very picky.
Johnny has a point though.
Sonic The Hedgehog had a rough roller coaster ride ever since Yuji Naka left since 06.
No offense but the people at Sonic Team are a bunch of idiots.
They need to get Yuji Naka back!
Milo Carpenter Too bad, he left by his own choice and probably won't come back seeing as how he doesn't want to make sonic games for his whole life.
leonardo rodriguez True. But still...
The Fans want to see him comeback.
It's been rough since before '06. Adventure DX and Heroes is where the downward slide really started, and Shadow turned the series into a laughingstock.
Mike Rotch Plays Games yep.
Mike Rotch Plays Games My Question is whats the fate of Sonic now 😞
Johnny, I️ am very pleased about what this video has you talking about. You of all people are someone who knows what should change for better or worse and you phrase your statements perfectly so they’re cohesive and understandable. I️ honest to God hope Sega watches this video and understands their flaws and improves from them. You are a perfect reviewer in my eyes.
With Sonic 2022 on the horizon I came back for the speech at the end, I genuinely wonder how this series is gonna move forward
I have hope. They seem to want to improve, with how they have Ian Flynn writing the story and Aaron Webber (somebody who knew nearly all of the criticisms Forces was going to get) got a promotion, and the fact that they delayed the game hopefully means this won't be another 06, boom etc.
@@J.R.Unbound hopefully. frontiers looks to be a big budget game which we haven't had since unleashed so that's a good first step. internally delaying the game is good if it needs extra time for quality. hopefully they reveal a gameplay trailer at summer games fest and if they do hope it looks greart
@@Voltricity435 God, I didn't even think about having cutscenes on the same level as Unleashed's opening. ARgh I don't want to give my hopes up but I'm praying that this isn't another Sonic cycle
Major step backwards with this game.
I can't wait for the modding community to put these levels in generations so that everyone can see just how much better those mechanics were. No auto-pilot and a drift function.
This game has way more problems than I have time to type but those are two major issues.
Side note: That snake QTE should have been a chase seen where your'e running along its body and it strikes at certain points. how hard is it to let me play the game.
IIEz2
I like the idea of the snake chase. Could've made it like the GUN truck escape
Or Sonic 06 =-ish openess (Yes I'm using 06 becuase it tried to be open with it's level design and failed sometimes)
IIEz2 Forget Generations, I would rather have modders improve on Forces. Such as improving on level designs.
How did 06 fail in open level design? It's really fun to make your own pathways by crossing through the boundaries of the environment which is something 06 lets you do. It's the games' biggest saving grace for replay-ability.
+ TheZeldaExperienceWithin
Eh, only like half of the levels even allowed for that and among them only crisis city, Kingdom Valley and End of the World were any fun.
Reminder that Johnny got a fucking death threat on twitter over this game and all he said was, “you sound angry”
Whoever did that has issues and was completely in the wrong.
Yeah I think we Adventure fans deserve a tribute like how the classic fans had Sonic Mania, but please NO BOOST!
Dr.Furman also add silver
I feel like if Classic Sonic wasn't in the game, there would've been more focus to Sonic and the Avatar (despite the huge amount of focus the avatar has), and overall the game just... doesn't feel fun when you're collecting everything and after you've nearly completed the Avatar customisation options.
I feel like Sega got way more protective of their brand after the Rise of Lyric debacle, and so they essentially had to meddle with the original Forces concepts to make sure it'd do well.
sonic forces left me depressed.
When I started I played episode shadow for the first time I had the biggest smile on my face but a few hours later when I best the death egg robot I just felt drained. I then went back and watched egg reverie and the final hazard. that got me back to some sort of happy medium but I think it just made me more depressed that the adventure formula has never actually had a fantastic game. then I was reminded what ted said about the adventure series and it age compared to when generations came out.
overall I think I just want to enjoy a truly good adventure game again.
Dude if this was enough to depress you, you have stuff you need to work out.
don't get me wrong I have some other things going on in my life that are probably helping with that.
but the last 3D sonic game with half decent control was sonic lost world and that game had a tube problem. or if you really want to get semantic the last sonic game with good 3D control, exploration, music, story, and climax was shadow the hedgehog. and we all know how bad that was.
Sonic adventure 2 was my first video game ever and its a little depressing that If the current climate continues I'm never gonna be able to get a new experience like it. classic fans were able to get a massive amount of of things from the sonic hacking contest and on top of that freedom planet was also really good. I dono maybe I'm looking in the wrong places but the best 3D sonic to emulate the 2D style is just a tech demo made by a fan.
sorry man its just hard to be optimistic about 3D sonic when such a half assed job was don with forces.
I think if Sega does make another Adventure game, it SHOULD keep the name Sonic Adventure 3, as it would boost sales tremendously. Adventure fans could make it for them same as Whitehead did for Mania. I mean look at the announcements for Shenmue 3 and Kingdom Hearts 3, it not only ended longtime memes but it brought back older fans who fell out of the series for both. Can you imagine what Sonic Adventure 3 would do for fans who stopped playing Sonic after the end of the Dreamcast era? The longer they wait to make the game, the less interested people will be especially with all the blunders that Sonic Team churns out year after year. I agree we need fresh blood. Just as Mania replaced Sonic 4, Sonic Adventure 3 can replace 06. Imagine that, a game that will save the reputation of the 3D games that the worst offender utterly demolished.
Calling it adventure 3 would cause people to have too high and unrealistic expectations
elin111 This.
Maybe there was a time when a marketing tactic like this from Sega would work, but after Sonic the Hedgheog 4, there is too much distrust from the consumers to believe that any real effort was put into a game called "Sonic Adventure 3".
More so because they already did try another adventure game in Sonic 06. Different title but same formula
Or maybe have the name "sonic adventure" but add something else besides a 3.
Damn, I would love another Adventure game, SA2 is one of my fav Sonic game and I like SA1 a hell of a lot.
Thank you for saying we need Sonic Adventure type of gameplay again. I've been wanting that type of gameplay with Sonic again for a while...
Johnny as a long time fan, I really must express how this is without a doubt, my favorite review you have ever created. It's not just with how much you've expressed how you felt about Sonic Team's laziness with this game but how we're at a point where we feel it's time for a change in development. As someone who loved Unleashed (half of it, even though I didn't hate the werehog), Colors, Generations, I was SO underwhelmed by this game that I remembering Iizuka's words about "wanting to push the series forward and not just give the fans what they want (granted that can mean a lot of things, lol), it makes me feel worried about the Sonic franchise. I KNOW Sonic can work in 3D, we all due despite naysayers. I know Sega is now a third-party developer but I still see Sonic as someone who could still produce a quality game that could be just as good as Mario. Especially for those that don't own Nintendo platforms and looking for the next best platformer.
When I look at Mario Odyssey, I just feel blown away by what Nintendo and flesh young blood could do to make an amazing product, that makes me wish Sega and Sonic Team could do the same. I will always be a Sonic fan but I just wish Sega would grow some balls and make Sonic that edgy, cool character we all looked up to in the 90s. Here's hoping!
Keep up with the reviews, man! One day I hope to be a reviewer just like you (I'm literally the same age as you as well, lol).
I hate that Mania had to tie in to this game because when Classic Sonic leaves at the end of this game, we don't even see him arrive back home. Mania had to have it's best ending lead into this game and couldn't have a fullfilling best ending. One cutscene in this game showing Classic Sonic get back would've been a lot more satisfying.
Spiriten XIII manias ending was eh. Definitely wasnt “the best”
AK46supr By the "best" ending I meant to say the "true" ending, when you get all the emeralds.
Spiriten XIII ooooohhh i gotcha
We don't even know if he really went back home. The guy literally just fades away! For all we know Sonic and friends could of seriously messed up the time space continuum thus obliterating Classic Sonic. XD
Spiriten XIII
Hearing modern Sonic say "Dont worry, im sure we will meet him again" got me scared tbh.
SEGA ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, let the modern/classic sonic tie-ins end here PLEASE.
Modern Sonic needs a refresh. I just cannot understand why they have *NEVER* tried to do the classic formula in 3D. Look, Classic Sonic games had the following:
- Platforming sections which slowed down the gameplay
- Momentum based physics (rolling at speed can give you extra locations, speed can help you reach other locations)
- Spin dash to help reach locations or clear jumps
- Exploration, extra paths
- Collectibles (chaos emeralds, take the Mania approach for this)
- Super Sonic as a reward
- Tails and Knuckles with different options and routes available to them
Sonic in modern games has almost none of these features. Yes he still has different routes and collectibles but that is pretty much it. SA1 got it the closest to the classic formula and needed some work. In my opinion, a successful modern Sonic title needs the following:
- Platforming sections
- Momentum based physics e.g. a high jump into a homing attack should give you the 'badnik bounce'
- Spin dash to access extra locations
- Multiple paths
- Tails and Knuckles, offering different routes down the same stages
- Mania style collectibles and special stages for Super Sonic
I would love a game that literally took the classic formula into 3D. Sonic Adventure had momentum with the Spin Dash but had some control issues and glitches though the control issues were not as bad as Heroes and Shadow the edgehog. I know there are a lot of fan games and if I knew how to make a fan game, I would love to trial the concept but I have no idea where to start. Sonic in 3D I believe can work but the boost formula does not leave a lot of options.
TheMadPolarBear Yeah, classic in 3D would be amazing, but they would need to modernize it. I wouldn't want it to be *too* classic inspired, if that makes since. I get exactly what you mean, it's the perfect formula, Sonic, Tails and Knuckles should all play similar to Sonic with different abilities. However, I think a better way to go at it is: The classic Sonic gameplay formula, but in 3D, with Unleashed/Forces presentation. At least in my opinion.
TheMadPolarBear this is what baffles me. Sonic has never had his Super Mario 64 equivalent. The Adventure games came closest to translating the classic gameplay into 3D, but that only ever made up about one third of the game at best, and the boost games just aren't akin to the classics in terms of fundamental gameplay elements in the way that, say, Odyssey is to Super Mario Bros.
With the extremely positive response to Mania's retro-inspired design, I think now would be a great opportunity for Sega to release "the 3D Sonic Saturn game that could have been." Take him back to his roots on more than a superficial level for once. A 3D Mania must surely seem like the most profitable course of action for the company at this point.
Honestly, I would love to see the classic formula in 3D. If they want to play it safe, they can take Sonic 2 or 3 and trial it in a 3D environment. Sonic 3&K as well as Mania is the best demonstration of the Sonic formula and if the levels translate well into 3D, then they can go ahead and try it. Level design is there so no need to worry about designing new levels, just need to nail the physics and classic Sonic gameplay in 3D.
sonic utopia?
Nice looking fan game. My only issue is the open level design, which from watching a few videos does not appear to make clear where you need to go. I'd rather a clear direction like the Classic 2D or Adventure Sonic stages
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Knuckles leads the resistance? Why not Tails? He obviously has the intellect for such a position, whereas Knuckles has been a sucker for Eggman's deceptions since Sonic 3/Knuckles.
Holy shit, it's Kevin Chamberlain! How've you been man? It's been ages (assuming you remember my old YT account).
I've been doing rather well. Sadly I don't remember your old account. Sorry.
Tails "lost it", aka probably gave up on standing up to eggman and infinite. Also, the others like silver and amy do seem to keep knuckles in check to some extent.
+KTChamberlain My old account was sora3040. I was the guy who tried to impersonate Dane.
Tails couldn't of lead the Resistance as stated before Tails literally lost all hope upon hearing about Sonic's defeat. He lost so much hope to the point to where he couldn't even defend himself against Chaos. All he could do is crouch in fear pleading for Sonic to come in and save him.