These ventilators can be used in Young patients with compliant lungs. The Hospitals and Govt should have thousands of these Mark 8 Bird respirators in surplus. These should be used if a shortage of ventilators exists for the use in this COVID19 crisis.
Thank you for the input. To expand on your thought a bit. Even with stiff lungs, these can be used. You need to increase the driving pressure (remember with stiff lungs, not as much pressure is transmitted from the airway to the pleural area thusly there is not as much of an increase in intrathoracic pressure). As to the COVID 19, yes they could be used. The Vortran is basically a disposable style of the Mark 8. The downside is that there are not any monitors on these items and with the ever changing lung, the ventilation will change. Many back up ventilation stores are using more of the LTV 1200 in the go box. This has computerized monitoring and better ventilation for the patients. With that being said, if you do not have power and in a big pinch, yes this would work and the Vortran is basically the same vent in a disposable format.
@@resptherapyedresources1997 As an older retired RRT and RN, and prior Director of Respiratory Care, we saved many lives doing this back in the 90s. It definitely works!!!
Mk 8 was a positive-negative respirator if you used an infant J circle. The color of the center body told what the Bird could do. Green positive pressure, red positive-negative pressure, one bird the Mk10 was pre set, used by military, no adjustment to pressure or sensitivity just rate and FIO2, another the Gold Mk 14 was graduated in mmHg not cmH2O. It handled high flows and pressures, and had flow a compensator for leaky cuffs, also called a horse bird cuz it was used in veterinary medicine to ventilate large animals. I used it on children and adults. The Bird adult circuit was called a "Q" circle which had minimal dead space, we used a standard Tx setup with flex tubes to manage re breathed CO2 to get the PCO2 dialed in. Yep the hourly vent checks to measure Vt and adjust pressures, deflate the tube cuff suction and re-inflate, all we had in those days were either rubber tubes or plastic all high pressure low volume cuffs, no suction kits, a single rubber catheter with a plastic "Y" to connect to the suction canister, at beside floating in tray of Zephran. I did 200 mile ambulance transports with Mk 7's and Mk 14's, great machines. The Birds were a great series of machines too bad most disappeared! Learned to to tear them down and rebuild them, knew every part by heart. If you want to see a MK 7 in action (breifly with a Q circle) or a PR 2 for that matter get the Movie "Bullit" with Steve McQueen and pay attention to the scenes filmed in ICU at San Francisco General Hospital, circa 1968ish, you see the ICU's I started in 1971! No volume vents to be seen but they were on the way! Cape, Emerson, Ohio 560's and OMG the MA 1 !!!!!!! Now look what we have! My career 1971-2015 encompassed all phases of RT from neonates to adult acute care, ICU, Open Heart's, Trauma (before there were trauma centers and air transport, Managed a Dept for 23 years, also 10 years concurrent to that in EMS as an EMT 1&2. Instructed as faculty in those programs for the Calif State University, Sacramento. Did all that with a ONE year Inhalation Therapy School education which had outstanding classroom and clinical instructors, starting Oct 1 1971, by Feb 1 1972 I was qualified to run my own shift. School was classroom 4 in the AM and 4-8 hrs clinical at various hospitals in the PM. My favorite was Letterman Army Hospital at Presidio in San Francisco. 2 Corpsmans and 2-4 civilian students (us) for a 1200 bed hospital all we worked was ICU and CVU with occasional visits to the wards to deliver equipment, an AP for a patient with abottle of saline, and a bottle of 1:400 Isurprel so they could do their own IPPB Tx's! Bob B. CRTT , never changed to a CRT, proud to be an old "trench therapist" that could handle whatever was thrown at me! Great video brought back many memories Thanks!!!!!!
@@ABQRT Thank you for the info and the compliment. I too used the Mark 7 and PR 2 and the MA 1. I got my CRTT in 94 and RRT in 94, not as experienced. When I entered the field, the 7200 was the work horse vent. On a note of what you stated, it was my understanding that the negative P of the Mark 8 turned out to not be a great idea due to adverse effects ie deflating lungs. I never worked with it, mostly Mark 7s. Thanks again for the input and compliments.
Any of the "Bird" units Mk 7 , Mk 8, Mk10 and Mk 14, ( I didnt mention the Mk 9 seeing it was more designed for veterinary use)and add the Bird blender or even the old mixing cartridges and you can do a decent job of ventilator support. Want to know more ? ask me ! Of course we could use Bennett Pr units too !
Do you have any idea where I could get a spate part for my Mk 8 Bird? The green transparent plastic on the right (as you look at the front) is cracked and unlikely to form a gas seal. I'd be happy with a used or new part.
@@NoosaHeads lets be sure we are talking about same side, the pressure gauge side is ambient pressure the patient circuit side is the pressure side. As for as parts go ? Id suggest actually writing to percussionaire.com/ . they now own bird. see if they have parts but also go over to EBAY and do a search for bird mark series , there are several !
If they were looking for an inexpesive solution to this COVID-19 crisis I think this would be a good way to go. The Birds have been around a long time, although fairly simple design with needle valves, diaphragms, orings, check valves, magnets and gaskets, they have alot going for them, they could be easily mass produced and driven pneumatically. Could be set up in manufacturing plants, fairly simply with little tooling compared to other "big" vents and microprocessor controlled vents. I have worked for 2 ventilator manufatures and have been a repair guy for almost 4 decades. I am not sure of the Covids -19 patient pressure tolerances or syncronus operation requirements. In any case if they were to have BIG companies start building vents the smart move would be to license proven designs from the medical industry and built to those exact parameters and software, they are proven and FDA approved. Because when this is done those units may still need future support, and the manufacturers will be back making cars etc.
JCCARDIOVET the short answer is yes it is possible. Please remember that this is basically a pressure control ventilator and not volume control. It my understanding that the COVID patients are having stiff lungs which greatly affects the volume. The downside of the Mark 8 is that there are not any monitors for volume. It was originally created for post op and most post op patients do not have a greatly dynamically changing lungs. Short answer, yes it is. Longer answer, need to really watch the tidal volume and also potentially increase the peak pressure to keep the same tidal volume.
@@resptherapyedresources1997 I doubt if anyone teaches anything about the bird or bennett units. (Old 91V Instructor and RRT !) before there were MA-1s !
I am not quite sure what you mean by a Tidal V flow meter. The device I used in the video is called a Wrights Respirometer. It is used to measure tidal volumes, minute ventilation, and slow vital capacities.
You can use the hand held Wright as shown here and you could mount the PB spirometer on the exhaust side. This should not be trial and error...calculate your Ti + Te/60. We used this unit as a backup or to punish snotty cardiac surgeons back in the 1980s.
Until they came up with a PEEP valve for the exhalation port you ran a tube into a bucket of water 1.3 cmh20 of PEEP{ for ever inch the end of the tube was submerged under water.
Depending on the patient and the condition of the lungs. If the person has obstructive diseases then make the E longer. If the lungs are stiffer then the E can be shorter. This machine does not have an E time so much of the I:E is guestimation and measurement using your wristwatch.
A very valuable video. Thanks for taking the time. May well come in useful again.
These ventilators can be used in Young patients with compliant lungs. The Hospitals and Govt should have thousands of these Mark 8 Bird respirators in surplus. These should be used if a shortage of ventilators exists for the use in this COVID19 crisis.
Thank you for the input. To expand on your thought a bit.
Even with stiff lungs, these can be used. You need to increase the driving pressure (remember with stiff lungs, not as much pressure is transmitted from the airway to the pleural area thusly there is not as much of an increase in intrathoracic pressure). As to the COVID 19, yes they could be used. The Vortran is basically a disposable style of the Mark 8. The downside is that there are not any monitors on these items and with the ever changing lung, the ventilation will change. Many back up ventilation stores are using more of the LTV 1200 in the go box. This has computerized monitoring and better ventilation for the patients.
With that being said, if you do not have power and in a big pinch, yes this would work and the Vortran is basically the same vent in a disposable format.
@@resptherapyedresources1997 As an older retired RRT and RN, and prior Director of Respiratory Care, we saved many lives doing this back in the 90s. It definitely works!!!
peggy herbine we typically used the PR2 with a heater. Yes I do agree. Thanks
Mk 8 was a positive-negative respirator if you used an infant J circle. The color of the center body told what the Bird could do.
Green positive pressure, red positive-negative pressure, one bird the Mk10 was pre set, used by military, no adjustment to pressure or sensitivity just rate and FIO2, another the Gold Mk 14 was graduated in mmHg not cmH2O. It handled high flows and pressures, and had flow a compensator for leaky cuffs, also called a horse bird cuz it was used in veterinary medicine to ventilate large animals. I used it on children and adults.
The Bird adult circuit was called a "Q" circle which had minimal dead space, we used a standard Tx setup with flex tubes to manage re breathed CO2 to get the PCO2 dialed in. Yep the hourly vent checks to measure Vt and adjust pressures, deflate the tube cuff suction and re-inflate, all we had in those days were either rubber tubes or plastic all high pressure low volume cuffs, no suction kits, a single rubber catheter with a plastic "Y" to connect to the suction canister, at beside floating in tray of Zephran.
I did 200 mile ambulance transports with Mk 7's and Mk 14's, great machines. The Birds were a great series of machines too bad most disappeared! Learned to to tear them down and rebuild them, knew every part by heart.
If you want to see a MK 7 in action (breifly with a Q circle) or a PR 2 for that matter get the Movie "Bullit" with Steve McQueen and pay attention to the scenes filmed in ICU at San Francisco General Hospital, circa 1968ish, you see the ICU's I started in 1971! No volume vents to be seen but they were on the way! Cape, Emerson, Ohio 560's and OMG the MA 1 !!!!!!! Now look what we have!
My career 1971-2015 encompassed all phases of RT from neonates to adult acute care, ICU, Open Heart's, Trauma (before there were trauma centers and air transport, Managed a Dept for 23 years, also 10 years concurrent to that in EMS as an EMT 1&2. Instructed as faculty in those programs for the Calif State University, Sacramento.
Did all that with a ONE year Inhalation Therapy School education which had outstanding classroom and clinical instructors, starting Oct 1 1971, by Feb 1 1972 I was qualified to run my own shift. School was classroom 4 in the AM and 4-8 hrs clinical at various hospitals in the PM. My favorite was Letterman Army Hospital at Presidio in San Francisco. 2 Corpsmans and 2-4 civilian students (us) for a 1200 bed hospital all we worked was ICU and CVU with occasional visits to the wards to deliver equipment, an AP for a patient with abottle of saline, and a bottle of 1:400 Isurprel so they could do their own IPPB Tx's!
Bob B. CRTT , never changed to a CRT, proud to be an old "trench therapist" that could handle whatever was thrown at me!
Great video brought back many memories Thanks!!!!!!
@@ABQRT Thank you for the info and the compliment. I too used the Mark 7 and PR 2 and the MA 1. I got my CRTT in 94 and RRT in 94, not as experienced. When I entered the field, the 7200 was the work horse vent.
On a note of what you stated, it was my understanding that the negative P of the Mark 8 turned out to not be a great idea due to adverse effects ie deflating lungs. I never worked with it, mostly Mark 7s.
Thanks again for the input and compliments.
Any of the "Bird" units Mk 7 , Mk 8, Mk10 and Mk 14, ( I didnt mention the Mk 9 seeing it was more designed for veterinary use)and add the Bird blender or even the old mixing cartridges and you can do a decent job of ventilator support. Want to know more ? ask me ! Of course we could use Bennett Pr units too !
Do you have any idea where I could get a spate part for my Mk 8 Bird? The green transparent plastic on the right (as you look at the front) is cracked and unlikely to form a gas seal. I'd be happy with a used or new part.
@@NoosaHeads lets be sure we are talking about same side, the pressure gauge side is ambient pressure the patient circuit side is the pressure side. As for as parts go ? Id suggest actually writing to percussionaire.com/ . they now own bird. see if they have parts but also go over to EBAY and do a search for bird mark series , there are several !
If they were looking for an inexpesive solution to this COVID-19 crisis I think this would be a good way to go. The Birds have been around a long time, although fairly simple design with needle valves, diaphragms, orings, check valves, magnets and gaskets, they have alot going for them, they could be easily mass produced and driven pneumatically. Could be set up in manufacturing plants, fairly simply with little tooling compared to other "big" vents and microprocessor controlled vents. I have worked for 2 ventilator manufatures and have been a repair guy for almost 4 decades. I am not sure of the Covids -19 patient pressure tolerances or syncronus operation requirements. In any case if they were to have BIG companies start building vents the smart move would be to license proven designs from the medical industry and built to those exact parameters and software, they are proven and FDA approved. Because when this is done those units may still need future support, and the manufacturers will be back making cars etc.
Thank you and yes this might be an emergency solution.
Very helpful. Thanks a lot 👍
Is it possible to use as a mechanical ventilator for a patient with COVID19? (ICU)
Yes it is
JCCARDIOVET the short answer is yes it is possible. Please remember that this is basically a pressure control ventilator and not volume control. It my understanding that the COVID patients are having stiff lungs which greatly affects the volume. The downside of the Mark 8 is that there are not any monitors for volume. It was originally created for post op and most post op patients do not have a greatly dynamically changing lungs. Short answer, yes it is. Longer answer, need to really watch the tidal volume and also potentially increase the peak pressure to keep the same tidal volume.
Cute ventilator!!!! I love ventilators!!!!!
we need this now for corona,i bet RT nowadays dont know how to use this
Look up the Vortran emergency ventilator, it operates on the same principle. I do believe you are right though
@@resptherapyedresources1997 I doubt if anyone teaches anything about the bird or bennett units. (Old 91V Instructor and RRT !) before there were MA-1s !
Thank you so much
Excellent thanks for sharing where can I find TIdal V flow meter
I am not quite sure what you mean by a Tidal V flow meter. The device I used in the video is called a Wrights Respirometer. It is used to measure tidal volumes, minute ventilation, and slow vital capacities.
You can use the hand held Wright as shown here and you could mount the PB spirometer on the exhaust side. This should not be trial and error...calculate your Ti + Te/60. We used this unit as a backup or to punish snotty cardiac surgeons back in the 1980s.
How do you apply PEEP with this ventilator setup? Thank you for posting this.
You would need to add an external PEEP valve. The same that you would use for a resuscitation bag.
Until they came up with a PEEP valve for the exhalation port you ran a tube into a bucket of water 1.3 cmh20 of PEEP{ for ever inch the end of the tube was submerged under water.
What do you want the I:E to be at 1:3 or 1:2?
Depending on the patient and the condition of the lungs. If the person has obstructive diseases then make the E longer. If the lungs are stiffer then the E can be shorter. This machine does not have an E time so much of the I:E is guestimation and measurement using your wristwatch.
Wilson Susan Williams Amy Wilson James