I wish from the deepest of my heart, that all your troubles with sleep apnea will resolve and that you have perfect restorative sleep. You're a kind intelligent person. Keep working towards what you want and it will all happen for you.
Gets worse before it gets better...I feel you man..had my right side inferior turbinate removed from a tumour in 2012, and now feeling a bit of empty nose syndrome from the MSE expander since my airways are wider and imbalanced.
I can concur with a lot of your experience. Looking forward to getting my expander out so I can see how much my tongue posture will be able to improve!! It's definitely really tough to eat, sleep, brush and Mew with that appliance in there but I know it always gets worse before getting better. I'm doing everything to avoid DJS. Things will get better for you soon stay positive and keep spreading awareness!
These videos are awesome. I found a link to your interview with Dr.Zaghi @ TBI (he just did surgery on my 5yr old literally yesterday and I was doing some post op reading) Your experience is giving me a great perspective. It is even more reassuring that TBI is having thoughtful conversations with individuals like yourself learning from your personal journey. We are treating sleep and breathing issues, feeding, speech, underdeveloped jaw, we’ve had ear tubes in, adenoidectomy, Dr.Z just did a partial tonsillectomy and tongue tie. We do OMF therapy, our next step is jaw expansion. Thank you for sharing, I look forward to your updates!
As a temporary measure may want to consider a) a mandibular advancement device and b) positioning the nasal strip on the lower third of the nose. I’ve found the former helps tremendously even w/o proper tongue posture, and the latter really helps prevent nasal valve collapse.
Mandibular advancement devices can't fit with braces/invisalign. Also yes I use nasal strips and nasal dilators every night and they're super helpful. Thank you :)
@@evanlavizadeh4032 I guess I’m using an advanced advancement device then, it’s designed to work with Invisalign and RPEs. It’s called Apnodent / Somnodent depending on the model.
Thanks for the encouragement :) My plan is to finish my Invisalign treatment. Then, I will get a DISE (drug induced sleep endoscopy) before MMA + Genioplasty surgery.
a lot of people say that mewing is pseudoscience, but the principles it applies have been used for years in myofunctional therapy. your problem of your tongue dropping when you sleep could be because your tongue is weak, thanks to a bad swallowing habit. i bet that if you do tongue exercises and practice a correct swallow pattern, all your problems will go away
Not quite. The claim to mewing is that it grows adult bone. The intention is skeletal development. But mewing has been around for decades and there doesn't yet exist even one paper that shows that it grows adult bone. My jaw bones are tiny. Myofunctional therapy does actually improve some of my symptoms (I did it for a while, and plan to do more after this expander is removed). But it won't solve the root cause of my problems: small jaws.
Hi Evan.... what help me immensely while going through expansion (which I'm still going through now 2 months later) was cranial sacral therapy with a osteopath. I see that you're going to Audrey Yoon, I am as well... cranial sacral therapists are pretty common in California. I had a lot of sensory issues and the one thing that has help me feel better was alignment with therapy. I would suggest this if you keep feeling worse. I can send you my rec if needed she is in Pasadena. But like I said, there are a lot in Los Angeles and surrounding.
How much do you pay for that provider? I don't believe in osteopathy and cranialsacral therapy So I wouldn't spend money on it, but I'm really happy to hear that it's helping you! And it feels really good that you are offering to help me as well. I appreciate that.
Hey Evan! Thanks for creating these videos. Super helpful. I'm in the LA area as well and had a frustrating experience with the UCLA doctor you referenced in a previous video. Your experience provided validation for how I felt. Any chance you could provide links or references for the tongue placement exercises you do? Thanks!
Thanks for sharing your experiences and insights and throwing light on these matters in an interesting way! I had a question. What was your AHI/RDI/Arousal Index before these surgeries and what is it currently after them?
You're welcome! My AHI/RDI was 7/20. This was back in 2018 and I suspect it got worse before treatment but I don't know. I haven't had an updated sleep study since.
Hey buddy thanks for the great videos, I follow them every time they come out. I'm sorry you're in a bad way at the moment, it's been a consideration of mine that you'd have to retrain once the MSE was out. Can I ask, do you have an idea how old you were when you first began mewing, chewing falim etc. before MSE? Were you under or over 25 bud? Thanks for all the great content, I hope you get through this and are able to reposition your tongue after the appliance is finished and removed!
@@evanlavizadeh4032 That's cool man and you're welcome, I think afterwards is when you can then train your posture again and receive those benefits along with the now added space, you should maybe look into a myobrace or something that will retrain your posture when this gets removed :-) Haha I'm glad you don't mind bud!
I have a marpe in now and my tongue still stays up on my palate. No need to retrain when taken out. My issue is my suture won't split. I'm trying to help it spit with my tongue, though. Lol
Are you getting a tongue tie release and seeing a myofunctional therapist? I know you’ve spoken to dr. Zhagi and probably seen the videos of his patients post operation. I’m getting mine released in July. I bet that might help you feel better.
Hey Evan great video! I’m sorry to hear about the problems you have been dealing with. I’m hoping for the beast for you in the future. Just curious if you know, would MSE be good for people with TMJ/TMD issues?
Is MSE dangerous? Is there any health risks? I’m supposed to go see a surgeon for MSE to see if I can get the screws in my pallet, I am scared and hope for the best
There are some but not many. Biggest is risk of infection. If you overdo the forces, you can get some damage to bones on your eye sockets but it hasn't been seen to lead to anything permanent. And it's preventable if you take your time and don't push too hard. Give up if it's failing too much. Also, it's a new treatment so the long-term effects haven't been observed yet.
I'm curious so I have a few questions for you: 1. If your jaws are small and underdeveloped, how have your teeth manged to stay straight? Have you had tooth extraction and braces before? 2. After all is said and done (and fingers crossed youre completely cured), that is after your MARPE, Invisalign and MMA are done, will you need retainers to keep your teeth straight?
1. yes and yes. I have had wisdom teeth extractions, and braces. And my arches have this weird curve to accommodate for the low space. Plus, I still have crooked lower teeth. 2. Yes I'll need retainers. hope that helps :)
Hey Evan! Hang in there buddy! I wanted to ask you if after the bulk of the expansion you’ve noticed your eyes being more wide apart? I have hypertelorism (very wide set eyes) but also a very narrow palate. I want to have a MSE but want to prevent having my eyes more wide set. What’s your opinion? Thanks
From what I've heard: slow mse expansion primarily provides more tounge space and less zygomatic or cranial facial changes, while faster expansion puts more force on surrounding sutures in the skull. So maybe just do one turn a day, or even a half turn a day
The part where you were suspecting the oral device was worsening your sleep due to low tongue posture, etc.... Did you find your sleep improved after the device was removed? Of course, I mean before the MMA.
@@evanlavizadeh4032 🤞 wrapping up EASE now and my experience is similar to yours. Objectively I can nasal breathe much better, but it hasn't translated into better sleep yet. Getting out the TPD bar in a couple months, so hoping I get a boost once it's removed.
look into flobility. You need to change the spine in order to bring the maxxilla and mandible forward. Also a good way to train the jaw is to microwave flatbread, eat it with hummas and chew it. It will be much tougher than any gum.
@@evanlavizadeh4032 not both jaws just the mandible. increasing cervical lordosis will bring the mandible forward and out of the throat. cervical lordosis can only be increased if the ribs and the pelvis are lined up correctly and out of anterior pelvic tilt or any of the other compensations people make to breath with deficient airways. postural restoration is a way better system to address the whole body than flobility. I really think the most ideal solution would be to work with someone who understands importance of cranial issues, level your bite, get out of compensatory postures and head/neck positions THEN open the airway. Otherwise, you've just allowed yourself to get air in a compensated position. I mean just tongue work with myofunctional therapy can improve sleep apnea/sleep disordered breathing and thats just the tip of the iceberg of the more "holistic" treatments. But do orthodontists tell you about this stuff no..they want to make money and many dont take into account the role of autonomics, neck position etc.
Hi Evan, new sub here. what's your opinion on Mse? I have vivos appliance but I'm thinking about dropping it mid way and doing Mse, but I can't find a provider around Dallas atm.
Hey Evan, Do you use CPAP or BPAP? I have also seen that in the video you are sleeping with the Dreamwear nasal mask, I'm about to get BPAP and I want to know what your thoughts are about buying one and whether or not you are statisfied with yours and with the Dreamwear nasal mask. Thanks alot.
I used CPAP for years but now I'm on BPAP. It doesn't make me feel better but it is more comfortable. I like the dreamwear nasal mask alot but it doesn't feel as effective as the dreamwear pillows. Idk could just be my perception.
@@evanlavizadeh4032 booo. That's disappointing. So which of the many non-surgical treatments (besides PAP) you've tried helped the most would you say?
I think it's complicated. If you have tongue tie, narrow palate, or chronic nasal congestion, you can forget about proper resting tongue posture. Otherwise, I use to train by mouth taping during the day and night. I would even jog with my mouth taped. Forced myself to breathe through my nose and keep my tongue up. It worked!
Well... When I had the expander removed, it was because MSE failed. I didn't have any expansion. So no. And what results are you asking about? Changes in my appearance or skeletal changes? No. Changes in my tongue posture? Yes.
@@evanlavizadeh4032 I thought you got palatal expansion with the MSE, correct? You said you IMW expanded about 8mm with the MSE and that your nose is less congested than before after the MSE expansion
@@evanlavizadeh4032 With your suture split and your MSE removed I assumed mewing would have been easier to continue with the expansion to get results In your appearance.
@@evanlavizadeh4032 thanks for the reply. I feel a little divided as my orthodontist said 10 months (I’m 33 years old) after the 3 or 4 weeks expansion. I don’t understand why the calcification process is so long compared to any other bone fracture
@@superdr88 wow 10 months. Yeah I'm not sure, I'm not sure what the norm is. One surgeon I consulted with said it takes 6 months for MMA so I figured it was normal.
Some of the osteopath and ALF crowd say that any fixed appliance disrupts cranial motion. A proper swallow massages the brain. There is fMRI that shows the brainstem and the brain itself moving in conjunction with a proper swallow which involves the posterior third of the tongue contacting the palate. It also looks like you've lost your cervical lordosis which can make life miserable. You'll feel better once you get that thing out. Dentistry is more complex than just moving bone or teeth. We rely so much on the teeth for sensory input. Just think of the periodontal ligaments - if you have something btw your teeth you go crazy. Your bite has changed with the MARPE, this may effect your overall state.
Hi Alex, thanks for this. I think it's helpful for everyone to hear all sides. From my perspective, you're not taking into account the fact that I (like all of us here) developed serious craniofacial and postural deformities. I can understand the fear of making it worse but whatever harmonious balance is at risk, I doubt ever existed for us. The risk (which is 100%) of serious physiological damage sleep apnea has to your body overshadows the risk of this alternative medicine theory. That's just my perspective. Concepts from alternative medicine have made their way into scientific medicine, so it would be naiive to dismiss those concerns. But most of us struggle to get through each day, so I'm not too worried about that. Edit: I should comment on ALF too, since it's a possible alternative you mentioned. I've never met anyone who had success. So I didn't give it much thought. I figure, if it works, it'd be flying off the shelf. Maybe not the best logic, but that's just my thought process.
@@evanlavizadeh4032 If ALF and other devices like that actually made the jaw bigger instead of pressing on teeth then you're correct they'd be ubiquitous. I agree I've never seen a compelling case for any device like ALF, DNA, AGGA, etc.
@@evanlavizadeh4032 @Evan Lavizadeh Yeah AFL doesnt work on adults. The appliance itself is simply a weak palate/teeth mover and bullshit in my opinion. What does work is the deprograming bite splint they use. Cranial bone/postural distortions are caused by uneven muscle forces due to uneven bite contact and jaw alignment. Leveling the jaw over time will realign C1 and occiput and the cranial bones as they do move. simply splitting the maxilla will only make existing cranial issues accentuated. leveling the bite and muscle forces is key. Its kind of a shame that they hide all the success (anecdotally) behind a wire palate expander when what they are really doing is leveling the bite. increasing the vertical to reduce forward head posture. the ALF device itself is a smokescreen. but the AFL/osteopath community and some folks in asia are the only ones who recognize the importance of a level bite and full occlusion in whole body health. Airway is actually less important as we as humans compensate to get an airway and there are plenty of folks with crap airways and UARS that feel good. UARS and airway is just another way for dentists to brand themselves as unique.
Part of me wonders if part of your problem is that you’re someone who just obsesses over your health in general to the point where you create psycho-somatic symptoms for yourself. Because you’re all over the place. You say MSE failed but then you decided to try it again, then you moved onto SARPE, and now you’re saying you’re trying to new electro shock therapy for sleep apnea (probably the Inspire device). And then you’re overly concerned about mouth leaks (I personally don’t think they matter THAT much), and THEN you say that the numbers on CPAP machines are wrong. Obstructive sleep apnea may be a dangerous condition, but that doesn’t mean it’s complicated one. It’s quite simple actually. Therefore, the mechanism of fixing it is pretty simple too-unblock the obstruction. And it sounds like you’ve done a million and one things that should do or have done just that. So have you ever considered maybe your sleep issues and the way you feel are unrelated to sleep apnea?
Well, hold on. I have two docs. One surgeon and one ortho. MSE failed, then my ortho recommended we try again but my surgeon disagreed and recommended SARPE. I chose to try MSE again. It succeeded, yay! So SARPE is canceled. I'm not moving on to SARPE. It's officially off my treatment plan. I was invited to try the new eXciteOSA device (not Inspire) for free so I said yes. It is not part of my treatment plan, I just said "hey why not?" Also, I think just about every provider would disagree about the importance of mouth leaks. What's the purpose of PAP if all that pressure is escaping? Did you see the part of this video of me sleeping? You can visually see mouth leaks and then you see me wake up a few seconds later. The numbers on CPAP machines are wrong, yeah, that's what all the doctors I consulted with told me. The numbers on CPAP don't even measure RERAs which makes up the majority of my arousals from my diagnosis. Also, my most significant source of obstruction is from my recessed jaws and I haven't even started treatment on that yet. In fact, the only treatments I've started and finished are CPAP and turbinate reduction+septoplasty (which completely failed to increase nasal airflow, unfortunately) so I wouldn't say I've done a million things. I would say I've done two things (Remember, I'm not done with MSE/MARPE). And CPAP helps me a significant amount. so one of those two things was somewhat successful and the other has a notorious rate of relapse...
I wish from the deepest of my heart, that all your troubles with sleep apnea will resolve and that you have perfect restorative sleep. You're a kind intelligent person. Keep working towards what you want and it will all happen for you.
That's very kind of you. ❤️
Did anyone notice Max's fabulous new earrings?
Hey Evan! Thanks for sharing this. I’m sorry you aren’t feeling better yet... Hang in there!
Gets worse before it gets better...I feel you man..had my right side inferior turbinate removed from a tumour in 2012, and now feeling a bit of empty nose syndrome from the MSE expander since my airways are wider and imbalanced.
No way.... I'm so sorry. That's gotta be miserable.
Are you still suffering from ENS ? Or did the MSE help ?
I can concur with a lot of your experience. Looking forward to getting my expander out so I can see how much my tongue posture will be able to improve!! It's definitely really tough to eat, sleep, brush and Mew with that appliance in there but I know it always gets worse before getting better. I'm doing everything to avoid DJS. Things will get better for you soon stay positive and keep spreading awareness!
Thanks for the encouragement! It's nice to hear that someone else is going through the same thing. When do you get yours removed?
These videos are awesome. I found a link to your interview with Dr.Zaghi @ TBI (he just did surgery on my 5yr old literally yesterday and I was doing some post op reading)
Your experience is giving me a great perspective. It is even more reassuring that TBI is having thoughtful conversations with individuals like yourself learning from your personal journey. We are treating sleep and breathing issues, feeding, speech, underdeveloped jaw, we’ve had ear tubes in, adenoidectomy, Dr.Z just did a partial tonsillectomy and tongue tie. We do OMF therapy, our next step is jaw expansion.
Thank you for sharing, I look forward to your updates!
As a temporary measure may want to consider a) a mandibular advancement device and b) positioning the nasal strip on the lower third of the nose. I’ve found the former helps tremendously even w/o proper tongue posture, and the latter really helps prevent nasal valve collapse.
Mandibular advancement devices can't fit with braces/invisalign. Also yes I use nasal strips and nasal dilators every night and they're super helpful. Thank you :)
@@evanlavizadeh4032 I guess I’m using an advanced advancement device then, it’s designed to work with Invisalign and RPEs. It’s called Apnodent / Somnodent depending on the model.
Hi I have been following your journey please dont stop making videos and whats current plan for the future
Thanks for the encouragement :) My plan is to finish my Invisalign treatment. Then, I will get a DISE (drug induced sleep endoscopy) before MMA + Genioplasty surgery.
a lot of people say that mewing is pseudoscience, but the principles it applies have been used for years in myofunctional therapy. your problem of your tongue dropping when you sleep could be because your tongue is weak, thanks to a bad swallowing habit. i bet that if you do tongue exercises and practice a correct swallow pattern, all your problems will go away
Not quite. The claim to mewing is that it grows adult bone. The intention is skeletal development. But mewing has been around for decades and there doesn't yet exist even one paper that shows that it grows adult bone.
My jaw bones are tiny. Myofunctional therapy does actually improve some of my symptoms (I did it for a while, and plan to do more after this expander is removed). But it won't solve the root cause of my problems: small jaws.
Hi Evan.... what help me immensely while going through expansion (which I'm still going through now 2 months later) was cranial sacral therapy with a osteopath. I see that you're going to Audrey Yoon, I am as well... cranial sacral therapists are pretty common in California. I had a lot of sensory issues and the one thing that has help me feel better was alignment with therapy. I would suggest this if you keep feeling worse. I can send you my rec if needed she is in Pasadena. But like I said, there are a lot in Los Angeles and surrounding.
How much do you pay for that provider? I don't believe in osteopathy and cranialsacral therapy So I wouldn't spend money on it, but I'm really happy to hear that it's helping you! And it feels really good that you are offering to help me as well. I appreciate that.
Hey Evan! Thanks for creating these videos. Super helpful. I'm in the LA area as well and had a frustrating experience with the UCLA doctor you referenced in a previous video. Your experience provided validation for how I felt.
Any chance you could provide links or references for the tongue placement exercises you do? Thanks!
Thanks for sharing your experiences and insights and throwing light on these matters in an interesting way! I had a question. What was your AHI/RDI/Arousal Index before these surgeries and what is it currently after them?
You're welcome! My AHI/RDI was 7/20. This was back in 2018 and I suspect it got worse before treatment but I don't know. I haven't had an updated sleep study since.
Cool man, feel better soon!
Hey buddy thanks for the great videos, I follow them every time they come out. I'm sorry you're in a bad way at the moment, it's been a consideration of mine that you'd have to retrain once the MSE was out. Can I ask, do you have an idea how old you were when you first began mewing, chewing falim etc. before MSE? Were you under or over 25 bud? Thanks for all the great content, I hope you get through this and are able to reposition your tongue after the appliance is finished and removed!
Jake literally no one likes it when they are called “bud” lol
@@orenda1791 Glad you do. Sorry to anyone if they don't lol
I was 25 when I started. Thank you for the kind wishes :) and btw, I don't mind being called bud. I use that word too. haha
@@evanlavizadeh4032 That's cool man and you're welcome, I think afterwards is when you can then train your posture again and receive those benefits along with the now added space, you should maybe look into a myobrace or something that will retrain your posture when this gets removed :-) Haha I'm glad you don't mind bud!
I have a marpe in now and my tongue still stays up on my palate. No need to retrain when taken out. My issue is my suture won't split. I'm trying to help it spit with my tongue, though. Lol
Are you getting a tongue tie release and seeing a myofunctional therapist? I know you’ve spoken to dr. Zhagi and probably seen the videos of his patients post operation. I’m getting mine released in July. I bet that might help you feel better.
Nope, I don't have tongue-tie. Myofunctional therapy may be something I do down the road but it won't be a significant part of my treatment.
Hey Evan great video! I’m sorry to hear about the problems you have been dealing with. I’m hoping for the beast for you in the future.
Just curious if you know, would MSE be good for people with TMJ/TMD issues?
Unfortunately, I don't know anything about TMD. :(
Is MSE dangerous? Is there any health risks? I’m supposed to go see a surgeon for MSE to see if I can get the screws in my pallet, I am scared and hope for the best
There are some but not many. Biggest is risk of infection. If you overdo the forces, you can get some damage to bones on your eye sockets but it hasn't been seen to lead to anything permanent. And it's preventable if you take your time and don't push too hard. Give up if it's failing too much. Also, it's a new treatment so the long-term effects haven't been observed yet.
I'm curious so I have a few questions for you:
1. If your jaws are small and underdeveloped, how have your teeth manged to stay straight? Have you had tooth extraction and braces before?
2. After all is said and done (and fingers crossed youre completely cured), that is after your MARPE, Invisalign and MMA are done, will you need retainers to keep your teeth straight?
1. yes and yes. I have had wisdom teeth extractions, and braces. And my arches have this weird curve to accommodate for the low space. Plus, I still have crooked lower teeth.
2. Yes I'll need retainers.
hope that helps :)
@@evanlavizadeh4032 You're awesome. Keep sharing your story. Very valuable for this community/audience.
@@tomass.6516 thank you for the support ❤️
I had a tongue tie release and now it doesn't fit very well on my palate, I want to go for marpe but you already scared me.
maybe try to use a type of thing like rpe tongue guard during the day so that your tongue would not get more lazier until mse gets out
Personally my expander doesn't irritate my tongue but it could help others! Hmm or it could give me a proper seal back? good thinking
Hey Evan! Hang in there buddy! I wanted to ask you if after the bulk of the expansion you’ve noticed your eyes being more wide apart? I have hypertelorism (very wide set eyes) but also a very narrow palate. I want to have a MSE but want to prevent having my eyes more wide set. What’s your opinion? Thanks
I haven't noticed that at all. I think you'd be fine but you can ask your provider.
From what I've heard: slow mse expansion primarily provides more tounge space and less zygomatic or cranial facial changes, while faster expansion puts more force on surrounding sutures in the skull.
So maybe just do one turn a day, or even a half turn a day
The part where you were suspecting the oral device was worsening your sleep due to low tongue posture, etc.... Did you find your sleep improved after the device was removed? Of course, I mean before the MMA.
Yes I think so! It wasn't a night and day difference but I'd say yes.
@@evanlavizadeh4032 🤞 wrapping up EASE now and my experience is similar to yours. Objectively I can nasal breathe much better, but it hasn't translated into better sleep yet. Getting out the TPD bar in a couple months, so hoping I get a boost once it's removed.
look into flobility. You need to change the spine in order to bring the maxxilla and mandible forward. Also a good way to train the jaw is to microwave flatbread, eat it with hummas and chew it. It will be much tougher than any gum.
Change the spine in order to bring the jaws forward? This is the first I'm hearing of this. How does that work?
@@evanlavizadeh4032 not both jaws just the mandible. increasing cervical lordosis will bring the mandible forward and out of the throat. cervical lordosis can only be increased if the ribs and the pelvis are lined up correctly and out of anterior pelvic tilt or any of the other compensations people make to breath with deficient airways. postural restoration is a way better system to address the whole body than flobility. I really think the most ideal solution would be to work with someone who understands importance of cranial issues, level your bite, get out of compensatory postures and head/neck positions THEN open the airway. Otherwise, you've just allowed yourself to get air in a compensated position. I mean just tongue work with myofunctional therapy can improve sleep apnea/sleep disordered breathing and thats just the tip of the iceberg of the more "holistic" treatments. But do orthodontists tell you about this stuff no..they want to make money and many dont take into account the role of autonomics, neck position etc.
Flobility is posture!!
@@alexgelinski3464 Please do you have any social media or any way I can contact you? You hold valuable knowledge
@@alexgelinski3464 how did you learn about this?
Hi Evan, new sub here. what's your opinion on Mse? I have vivos appliance but I'm thinking about dropping it mid way and doing Mse, but I can't find a provider around Dallas atm.
First, what's your age?
Hello EVAN did you do turbinate reduction? Besides are you mouth breathing or ??
Yes, but it didn't help. I don't mouth breathe
@@evanlavizadeh4032 what about before MARPE did you mouth breath , ever . And did MARPE help your nasal breathing
@@yahyaelmi8435 didn't mouth breathe much before, but yes nasal breathing dramatically improved
Quick question. When does orthodontic treatment get placed to close the diastema?
Immediately after expansion and sometimes even before expansion is finished depending on the provider and the case.
Hey Evan, Do you use CPAP or BPAP? I have also seen that in the video you are sleeping with the Dreamwear nasal mask, I'm about to get BPAP and I want to know what your thoughts are about buying one and whether or not you are statisfied with yours and with the Dreamwear nasal mask.
Thanks alot.
I used CPAP for years but now I'm on BPAP. It doesn't make me feel better but it is more comfortable. I like the dreamwear nasal mask alot but it doesn't feel as effective as the dreamwear pillows. Idk could just be my perception.
@@evanlavizadeh4032 Thanks bro
Tell us about the electric shock treatment thingy! ExciteOSA was it? 8:15
Yep! Didn't do anything for me
@@evanlavizadeh4032 booo. That's disappointing.
So which of the many non-surgical treatments (besides PAP) you've tried helped the most would you say?
@@markmoore3086 um... Nasal strips? It's no surprise that ExciteOSA didn't help, I had a skeletal deficiency.
6 months is pretty long, i imagine the ortho wants to make sure the sutures seal up properly after expansion?
yeah. Osteogenesis takes a long time.
Any advice on maintaining good resting tongue posture? Mine keeps dropping subconsciously.
I think it's complicated. If you have tongue tie, narrow palate, or chronic nasal congestion, you can forget about proper resting tongue posture. Otherwise, I use to train by mouth taping during the day and night. I would even jog with my mouth taped. Forced myself to breathe through my nose and keep my tongue up. It worked!
Did you fine mewing easier with your Suture split and the expander removed And do you also see results from mewing?
Well... When I had the expander removed, it was because MSE failed. I didn't have any expansion. So no. And what results are you asking about? Changes in my appearance or skeletal changes? No. Changes in my tongue posture? Yes.
@@evanlavizadeh4032 I thought you got palatal expansion with the MSE, correct? You said you IMW expanded about 8mm with the MSE and that your nose is less congested than before after the MSE expansion
@@evanlavizadeh4032 With your suture split and your MSE removed I assumed mewing would have been easier to continue with the expansion to get results In your appearance.
@@CroMagnon-uk2go he still has the MSE on, just the arms off. Plus, mewing doesnt do anything for the appearance.
How to measure width of the maxillary arch ?? Detail please??
Sorry Salman, I don't know. You should ask your doctor.
How long do you have to keep the mse as a retainer once the full expansion is achieved?
Different providers have different answers. My ortho says at least 6 months once expansion is complete.
@@evanlavizadeh4032 thanks for the reply. I feel a little divided as my orthodontist said 10 months (I’m 33 years old) after the 3 or 4 weeks expansion. I don’t understand why the calcification process is so long compared to any other bone fracture
@@superdr88 wow 10 months. Yeah I'm not sure, I'm not sure what the norm is. One surgeon I consulted with said it takes 6 months for MMA so I figured it was normal.
What is the age limit on MSE and MARPE? I'm a 35 year old male.
Success starts to significantly drop off after 25. You should consider SARPE such as DOME or EASE
What do you think about SARPE & CPAP? No one does MARPE in my country
I think it depends on many things. I think that question is too general for me.
I’m getting MSE put in soon I found a provider after
@@cianlewis-hughes5172 congrats :)
Is it wort it?
@@cianlewis-hughes5172 for me, yes
Some of the osteopath and ALF crowd say that any fixed appliance disrupts cranial motion. A proper swallow massages the brain. There is fMRI that shows the brainstem and the brain itself moving in conjunction with a proper swallow which involves the posterior third of the tongue contacting the palate. It also looks like you've lost your cervical lordosis which can make life miserable. You'll feel better once you get that thing out. Dentistry is more complex than just moving bone or teeth. We rely so much on the teeth for sensory input. Just think of the periodontal ligaments - if you have something btw your teeth you go crazy. Your bite has changed with the MARPE, this may effect your overall state.
Hi Alex, thanks for this. I think it's helpful for everyone to hear all sides.
From my perspective, you're not taking into account the fact that I (like all of us here) developed serious craniofacial and postural deformities. I can understand the fear of making it worse but whatever harmonious balance is at risk, I doubt ever existed for us. The risk (which is 100%) of serious physiological damage sleep apnea has to your body overshadows the risk of this alternative medicine theory. That's just my perspective. Concepts from alternative medicine have made their way into scientific medicine, so it would be naiive to dismiss those concerns. But most of us struggle to get through each day, so I'm not too worried about that.
Edit:
I should comment on ALF too, since it's a possible alternative you mentioned. I've never met anyone who had success. So I didn't give it much thought. I figure, if it works, it'd be flying off the shelf. Maybe not the best logic, but that's just my thought process.
@@evanlavizadeh4032 If ALF and other devices like that actually made the jaw bigger instead of pressing on teeth then you're correct they'd be ubiquitous. I agree I've never seen a compelling case for any device like ALF, DNA, AGGA, etc.
From what ive gathered, alf, dna, ect are good for very young children, but mse and sarpe are built for more adult bone structures
@@evanlavizadeh4032 @Evan Lavizadeh Yeah AFL doesnt work on adults. The appliance itself is simply a weak palate/teeth mover and bullshit in my opinion. What does work is the deprograming bite splint they use. Cranial bone/postural distortions are caused by uneven muscle forces due to uneven bite contact and jaw alignment. Leveling the jaw over time will realign C1 and occiput and the cranial bones as they do move. simply splitting the maxilla will only make existing cranial issues accentuated. leveling the bite and muscle forces is key. Its kind of a shame that they hide all the success (anecdotally) behind a wire palate expander when what they are really doing is leveling the bite. increasing the vertical to reduce forward head posture. the ALF device itself is a smokescreen. but the AFL/osteopath community and some folks in asia are the only ones who recognize the importance of a level bite and full occlusion in whole body health. Airway is actually less important as we as humans compensate to get an airway and there are plenty of folks with crap airways and UARS that feel good. UARS and airway is just another way for dentists to brand themselves as unique.
How old are you? I’m thinking to start the same process and I’m 33
Some get mse 50+ so as long as ur provider is legit, you should be good
I'm 26. In males especially, the success rate rapidly drops off after 25. If it fails, you can move to SARPE. Or you can start with SARPE.
I will probably do a mix of surgically open the first third of the palatine suture and then expand with a modified mse with 6 screws instead of 4
@@superdr88 why get surgical assist on first 3rd of suture? Why not surgical puncture along the entire suture?
6 screws though seem to be a good idea
Part of me wonders if part of your problem is that you’re someone who just obsesses over your health in general to the point where you create psycho-somatic symptoms for yourself. Because you’re all over the place. You say MSE failed but then you decided to try it again, then you moved onto SARPE, and now you’re saying you’re trying to new electro shock therapy for sleep apnea (probably the Inspire device). And then you’re overly concerned about mouth leaks (I personally don’t think they matter THAT much), and THEN you say that the numbers on CPAP machines are wrong.
Obstructive sleep apnea may be a dangerous condition, but that doesn’t mean it’s complicated one. It’s quite simple actually. Therefore, the mechanism of fixing it is pretty simple too-unblock the obstruction. And it sounds like you’ve done a million and one things that should do or have done just that. So have you ever considered maybe your sleep issues and the way you feel are unrelated to sleep apnea?
Well, hold on. I have two docs. One surgeon and one ortho. MSE failed, then my ortho recommended we try again but my surgeon disagreed and recommended SARPE. I chose to try MSE again. It succeeded, yay! So SARPE is canceled. I'm not moving on to SARPE. It's officially off my treatment plan.
I was invited to try the new eXciteOSA device (not Inspire) for free so I said yes. It is not part of my treatment plan, I just said "hey why not?"
Also, I think just about every provider would disagree about the importance of mouth leaks. What's the purpose of PAP if all that pressure is escaping? Did you see the part of this video of me sleeping? You can visually see mouth leaks and then you see me wake up a few seconds later.
The numbers on CPAP machines are wrong, yeah, that's what all the doctors I consulted with told me. The numbers on CPAP don't even measure RERAs which makes up the majority of my arousals from my diagnosis.
Also, my most significant source of obstruction is from my recessed jaws and I haven't even started treatment on that yet. In fact, the only treatments I've started and finished are CPAP and turbinate reduction+septoplasty (which completely failed to increase nasal airflow, unfortunately) so I wouldn't say I've done a million things. I would say I've done two things (Remember, I'm not done with MSE/MARPE). And CPAP helps me a significant amount. so one of those two things was somewhat successful and the other has a notorious rate of relapse...