"Do not make pure armor divisions. I don't know who started this thing..." Well to answer that... the British. And the French. And the Soviets. Well, basically anyone who wasn't Germany ;). Yeah, they figured it out the hard way :P
Clausejoke According to wikipedia(yeayea inno :P on mobile so hard to dig up better sources) the British armoured division in 1939 consisted of one heavy armoured brigade, one light armoured brigade(neither having any inf), and a support group with, among other stuff, 2 motinf battalions. Skipping some intermediate changes, it was only in 1942 that they changed the the divisions by replacing one of the armoured brigades with an entire motinf brigade :) Link en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Armoured_formations_of_World_War_II
In the real world armoured units are made up of purely armoured units and of course support units to make the unit function. However, on operations they will form part of a much larger group such as brigades, divisions and corps. In these larger groups armour will always be supported by mechanised infantry and self propelled artillery and or air support. HoI although an enjoyable game is nevertheless just a game, and does not simulate real strategy or war. The winning results in HoI is based on computer computation of numbers and not on blood, guts, or luck. During WW2, Germany initial success was partly based on luck, and the British and French inability to interpret the overall German strategy until it was too late. In the later phase of WW2, the result was based on available resources. No amount of blood, guts and luck could beat huge resources so long as it was properly applied.
@@rockyrowlands3652 A lot of poorer nations will mix their tanks with their infantry corp. USSR for example, a company of infantry was 30 men with support vehicles (including armor). The US for example, armored division are usually supported from the air or mech units.
0:34 Duplicate your templates 2:42 Optimal combat width 4:50 Pure armor divisions, yes or no? 6:18 A good unit to capture enemy territory 7:53 FOR THE EMPEROR (“space marine” template) 9:03 Benefits of Engineers 10:55 Self propelled artillery 13:24 Support brigades and you 14:22 Artillery and support brigades 15:25 Common sense
take the grand battleplan doctrine for 10 entrenchment. Then get engineers maxed. Once you've leveled up your generals and field marshall's enough you can get ambusher and the field marshal trait for 30%+ entrenchment. In my Czechoslovakia game i had 102% entrenchment
>be german soldier >Czechoslovakia suckers refuse to give the Sudetenland >invade >arrive at border. >Column stops >walk out >Czechoslovakian asshats have dug the grand canyon. >can't push. >die
20 Width Divisions are statistically inferior to 40 Width divisions in every way. The ONLY advantage that 20 width divisions bring is their micro capability, allowing you to spread your forces along a front better, or cycle troops off the frontlines. While these advantages are good, the upsides of 40 Width divisions far outweigh them in most circumstances, especially if you are playing as a Major. Some of the Advantages include: 1. Increased Attack values increases the possibility of overwhelming enemy defense stats, allowing them to inflict full damage. 2. Increased HP, so when breakthroughs do happen, it is less likely that the Division will be wiped out 3. Increased Defense, allowing you to resist high attack divisions. 4. Support Company efficiency: Offering the same bonuses for the cost of one divisions worth of equipment eg. a 20 width support company and a 40 width support company will use the same supply. 5. Ease of Micro: While 20 Width divisions can be microed more effectively than 40 width divisions... Along an entire front, the ease of 40 width division micromanagement prevents overwork. 6. Reinforcement ticks: If you have two 40 width divisions on the front, rather than four 20 width, you will only need one reinforcement tick to trigger for the extra 40 width, rather than the three for the 20 widths. 7. (Personal Opinion) More Versatility in division creation: While maintaining the same ratios as 20 width divisions, you can still add on additional equipment more easily without sacrificing as much supply%, allowing them to fight better on the front during divisional changes.
3:30 "The Reason I say 40 Widths are pointless in my opinion" "You can fit 2x20 width for the same resources" "If you have 2 divisions on the exact same spot... that is essentially a 40 width." Although I will give you that you mentioned the ability to micro your attacking units for organization regain.
Arguably and effectively no. 1. 2x20 Width divisions actually use slightly more manpower than a 40 width, due to the extra support companies associated with them. 2. While yes, a 40 width division does include more men (For which you would assume more casualties), the extra defense and attacks stats actually significantly REDUCES the casualties you will take, allowing you to break enemy Org faster and kill enemy troops faster.
Heres one of the most cheesy things i can imagine: Use heavy Tanks (also called infantry tanks) exactly like they were envisioned to begin with, as mobile fortresses for infantry, increasing their hardness. Thats literally the doctrine of the day for the british, mobile tank regiments are an exclusivly german thing. Everyone else historically did exactly that. So no, not cheesy or innovative or anything else.
It isn't historically accirate or realistic in the slightest, lol. How does adding 40 tanks into an army of 20 000 make the infantrymen bulletproof? Because that's essentially what adding a heavy tank battalion into an infantry division does, it gives every unit in the division 30 armor
i get that isp told you to do this but i just dont like big channels like that using fans to try to get him more popular. by him asking you to go and tell people do arty only is like me making a video saying go troll people by positing loose civil war as germany, kinda makes me sick seeing channels exploiting fans like this
Tip 1: Duplicate the original template I have to agree with this one, even though I don't do it. (2:26 The reason why divisions drop in EXP when you add new battalions is because the new manpower received is green.) Tip 2: 5/10/20w, not 40w The 40w/20w debate goes on. 2x20 will take more damage, but will take longer to have their ORG depleted. 1x40 will beat 2x20 in direct combat, but if a 20w can resist, 2x20 is better on defence than 1x40 unless attack is key. Tip 3: *ADD SOME KIND OF INFNTRY INTO TANK DIVISIONS* Yep. The _problem_ is that the UK and France both start with pure tanks. 6/4, 5/5, 4/3/2 or 3/4/2 are the standards. Tip 4: 2w divisions (I call them point-divisions) can capture territory. True. But they get utterly decimated in combat. But they _are_ useful for cleaning up. Tip 5: Add HARM Costs a f*ckton of IC, but it's worth. The usual addition is an HTD battalion, though ARM can be used for BRK or an SPG for SATK. Tip 6: Add engineers to everything -I prefer Gunslinger Engies for the extra health and minisentry spam- Entrenchment and terrain boosts, yep. But they cost more than other support battalions in support equipment and sometimes something else could take the slot better. Still, they should be choice #1. I also put them at the top of the support list, because anything else looks wrong. That's just me though. Recon, however, can be ditched for Infantry. On MOT or ARM they can be used - though they can be replaced on ARM. *Replaced, not removed.* Maximum possible entrenchment: 10% base + 20% Trench Warfare + 10% Engineers + 12% Better Engineers + 2% Old Guard + 2% Old guard * 1.3 Def. Doctrine = 72.8%. I may be wrong here, but I think that's the max. (Edit: With WtT you can also get ambusher. This makes the max 85.8, or, if it applies to FMs as well, 94.9) just remember that enough Attack will dislodge them eventually. Tip 7: SPGs They are faster than towed, and/or have more attack. They cost more, but can keep up with tanks, and don't use rockets. I repeat, though: they cost more. Look at the IC at 12:20. 769:1381. One of them is over 70% more spammable. Still, good for Space Marines. Though you compared 1936 SPGs with unupgraded arty (did you even take Great War Arty?) which my be a problem. Tip 8: Use Support Brigades My argument to this would be that it's not worth the Research Time. And Logistics does not reduce equipment. It actually adds required equipment, including 10 MOT. What it does is reduce supply consumption. They are two different things. Tip 9: Support Arty (and AA) Support Arty is basically a mandatory addition to everything except suppression and maybe garrison divisions. Which leaves 0 to 3 free slots depending on whether Logistics, Field Hospitals and Recon are mandatory or not too. Tip 10: Use common sense! I f*cking agree. _HOWEVER:_ Licenses can only be done with DoD. I am under the impression that equipment can be disabled from being available to licence, but it's probably false, and I don't have DoD so I can't check.
It's exactly the same with expanding divisions with new units or units replacing lost manpower from combat. I'm not certain if there is some xp retention mechanic (or if a unit that loses 10% of its manpower loses 10% of its xp as it reinforces), but as you reinforce, your units xp will go down.
I'm new to Hearts of iron, and I think this is going to help a lot. I've done really well with understanding industry and my recent playthrough of America taught me a lot about naval combat, I ruled the seas and invaded mainland Japan in that game but for some reason I ALWAYS fail horribly at combat in Europe against Germany, and now I see it's probably the templates I'm using
@@dustinl796 Conditional though, I find I dont have infinite manpower. So If I want to improve the template, I HAVE to upgrade the existing ones. :( Now I have to figure how to do that safely... (playing France)
When you added that Heavy Tank, the production cost tripled. When you switched from artillery to SPG, the cost of that division doubled. I'd think twice before making either of those changes.
40 width are much more superior to 20 width in attack, due to overwhelming enemies' defence. It's better to have 40 width tanks and 20 width infantry, or just 40 width shock troops with a lot of arty
12:20 while yes self propelled gives you 30 soft attack more, the production doubles that of the division with just artillery, making it 220 vs 146, and since the speed is the same is not worth it, but in tank or fast division they are
20 width is good for infantry so you don't run out of units, but the 40 width tank divisions lose less attack and breakthrough from support companies and are better for breaking the line.
My few notes on those tips which are overall good, tip by tip 1) by changing a template to a higher one, the unit that changed won't loose any efficiency based on the supply compared to the initial division it's coming from. So if the unit had 100 soft atk before, after with improved div but without the new equipment, the unit will still be at 100 soft atk. However, indeed as soon as new men join the division, the unit will loose xp. And once equipment arrive, only then the 100 soft atk will increase. 2) 40 width is superior in combat to 2 * 20 width. But you need to have enough division to hold your front before thinking about going 40, on that part I completly agree. 3) Good 4) Ok, not fully convinced but make perfect sense 5) I would say watch out for the terrain malus from the heavy tank. Also, the armor is 70% base on best brigade and 30% on average. It's not 100% best brigade, just to clarify 6) Good 7) Ok, just note that in your case, production cost went from 698-769 to 1310-1381 between ART and SPART. That's almost a ART div more ! So I would say : if production follows but manpower need to be secured, YES. Otherwise 2 ART div will beat the 1 SPART 8) Good 9) Good 10) Good Overall quite nice
“If somehow Germany became a god at the sea...” Me: yea stop right there bud. I don’t need to be a god. Also Me: *Operation sea lions the UK then island hops to Canada*
well over 3000 hours mainly as Germany. You can take out Polish & Czechs before end of 1937 accelerating all aspects of the game. Thus you do not need all the sophisticated templates touted. Keep it simple & make best use of factories & tech research by concentrating on just a few units. 10CW PNZ's can do the job without SPG's and 20CW infantry is perfectly adequate, even in Barbarossa. Try it :D
I stopped taking you seriously once you said 20Ws are better than 40Ws. In 3000 hours, you'd know better. Same with adding artillery supp to your tanks & maintenance to infantry.
well i said im most situations they are better, for russia and usa yes. but as germany and itally no sense you need to cover fronts and manpower issues and so on
Dustinl796 Videos Your sort of right, that you can't guard a lot of borders with 40's, but as Germany you should be able to take out the Benelux, Poland, and any resistance in the Balkans, and France unless they're a good player, and maybe Norway. Once you have all of those countries dealt with and you've garrisoned them, you should switch your infantry to 40w, which you use to take on the Soviets. You don't start making 40's right off the bat
Also, these are no "hate trains". I'm pointing out what's wrong in the video. With ALL majors, no exceptions, you can have 40Ws. Tho, I prefer 20Ws with japan until china's over. If you can't have enough divisions with USA/Germany to cover all the fronts, then something's wrong with your macro. Also, SPG's are good, just not the mediums. And going last left with mobile warfare is one of the most retarded things I've heard.
FDX wtf are you talking about "hate trains". You can pretty easily cover all fronts with 40's, but some people prefer 20s early game just for the sake of having more divisions. And while modern blitzkrieg is good, I prefer to not get -10% factory output cause of service by requirement
40w is love, 40w is life. especially if all you have is manpower and mosins to throw at the problem... and with the -.4 combat width bonus, you can just slamjam bodies into the meat grinder until everyone capitulates from running out of bullets.
Have you ever test run an equal 40 width against 2 twenty width? Even with the extra support artillery, the twenties lose every time. You can fit more battalions in a general with 40 width divisions. Because of the way reserves work, forty width only has to roll one die instead of two dice. Also, the mechanics of how attack vs defense and soft attack vs breakthrough works, 40 widths end up taking less organizational and strength damage against two equal enemy divisions at twenty each. They both have their advantages, but you seem to have underestimated 40 width. There's more benefits too. Of course twenty width definitely have their place in hoi4, 40 width do too.
Example being motorised divisions or cav (line holders after your tanks spearhead to make encirclements) are good twenty widither divisions. For mobile tanks, forty width to maximize breakthrough and attack to spearhead quicker.
The reason that it looks like units use xp is because as manpower is added (or replaced) they naturally lose xp, this is why the Field Hospital is so nice, its due to it preserving manpower and it stopping it from being replaced constantly, this allows units to gain xp faster then the manpower reinforcements can drain it.
@Dustinl796 Videos 5:00 not sure if it was Tukhachevsky or Vladimir Triandafillov but i'm pretty sure Soviet were the one started the whole idea of full tank corps Well , they were beaten hard by germany with a mixed divisions before switch to tank brigades mixed with motorized rifle brigades corps
I get what you are saying about the 40 width, but 2 20 widths is not better than a 40 width. If enemy defense is 100 and your 20 width attack is 60, both attackers will not deal full damage. If you attack with a 40 width with 120 attack, it will go over the enemy defense and cause much more damage, which is a weird system for this game and kind of silly but that's just how it is. Dealing over the defense gives a 4x damage multiplier i believe.
its not weird at all. what is happening is that you are basically concentrating fire on a single enemy unit intending to break it instead of splitting your fire on many small units which is a viable tactic even IRL
When two 20w division is attacking single 40w division they are attacking with 120 combined attack points. 100 of them will be tanked by defense, so only 10 % will hit, and 20 will do max 40% damage.
modifying the original division is the BEST way to go ESPECIAL late game where you cant deploy the new units where you would like to, the trick is to have already produced the vast majority of the new equipment needed and obviously don't do it when your forces are stressed
Thank you for the tips. I am very new to the game. And yes there are always people that now it better then everyone else. But you made your comments and then supported them. Myself going to try them.Many,many thanks. And at least you stepped up.
Production often affects my division templates since I like playing as medium sized countries. I go for Infantry Divisions with support artillery, engineers, and recons. Then I have at least 1 artillery battalion. For Tanks I find myself using light tanks since my production capacity is limited, but often will try to get at least 1 medium or heavy.
I have a thing about preserving my manpower as much as possible so I like to do 40 width infantry, 14/4 with artillery Light tank divisions I usually do 30 width 10/5 with motorized or mechanized Medium tanks I do 40 width 10/10 motor or mech. Been experimenting with 15/5 though
Most youtubers: "Leave comments if you disagree or have ideas!" Dustin796: 13:20 Seriously though. 12 production vs 3? You tried to brush that off like it's nothing. A 25% soft attack increase for 4x the production cost is pretty mediocre. Also, maintenance companies is pretty bad on infantry div's. Anti-air is useless if you have air superiority or if the enemy isn't running ground support missions.
Ahhhh...someone mentioned to put a heavy tank battalion into infantry. Nice job! But one thing that is even more cheesy is to put one battalion of heavy tank destroyers! It works like a charm.
These armor variants both have the same number of equipment per battalion. Even if heavy aa are cheaper, they are not THAT much cheaper to sacrifice sheer power that heavy tank destroyer gives you. Edit: they don't have the same number of equipment, they used to
@@trogdortheburninator9681 I did a check and you are correct, they do not have the same number of equipment, they must have changed that because I clearly remember they had the same amount.
If you use the right side of the mass assault division, with any country, you can build up industry and spam overpowered 40.5 widths that are so good. Especially if you combine that with overwhelming air power, you won’t even need tanks. If you add field hospitals and logistics companies, with the right side of the mass assault doctrine, you will practically get no negatives from supply, even if you stack forty widths on a small front, and you can use this with any country because the field hospitals make sure that you don’t lose many troops. I did this as the UK and I was actually gaining manpower, while losing wntire divisions trying to navally invade a late-game Germany.
btw fyi, L SPA 2 has the same soft attack as the M SPA 1 has. both have 42. and L SPA has 9.0 production cost while M SPA 1 has 12. could be useful to know, also LSPA 2 1 oil 3 steel and 1 tungsten to make MSPA 1 however is 1 oil 3 tungsten and 2 steel, so if you only able to procure small amounts of tungsten LSPA 2 might be a better choice.
Fun fact. training level is based solely on manpower reinforcements. That is, adding any manpower to a unit adds that manpower ratio of "green" -100% training to the unit. So taking your 3x3 starting div and adding and adding an extra infantry battalion averages out the division's XP to 1 "green" -100% vs 9 "regular" 100% as the new manpower reinforces. This also means that equipment losses do not reduce your units' training level. Only casualties. Just something I noticed when under-equipped divisions never dropped training level as their guns slowly got built. This also allows you to train an under-equipped division to regular and keep it there, but not an understaffed division. Because of the way training works, divisions with more training train faster, so a division with "trained" 150% will get to regular in less time than it took the division to get from "trained" 0% to "trained" 50%. For this reason, it is most efficient (on equipment spent during training) to add only one thing (be it infantry, arty, engis), then train to regular, then add more bits. Also, swapping a piece out counts as first removing the original and then adding a new one. This is why swapping infantry to arty in the base template drains training level, because you have effectively changed your division from 9 "regular" 100% to 7 "regular" 100% and 2 (smaller) "green" -100%.
It's not the same as a 40 width. Two 20 width divisions fighting one 40 width or vice versa will go in favor of the 40 because it's able to deal all it's damage to one of the smaller divisions and knock them out of combat. Reman actually made a video about this Also didn't you make a video featuring an armor only div template?
i did but at the time explained only make it if you have thousands stockpiled, if its light tanks it works, but medium tanks never make a full med tank div
I don't agree about 40-widths being pointless. 2 20-widths, if you have a full kit of support equipment, requires literally twice as much support equipment and manpower. The size of the support battalions remains the same in both the 20-wide and the 40-wide but when you have 2 20-wide, you are fielding exactly twice as many support battalions, requiring twice as much support manpower and production. Essentially, 40-widths are a way to equip vaster stores of troops with less support equipment per frontline battalion. They mainly make sense for nations with high manpower that struggle to equip all that manpower adequately due to low industrial base, eg. China, British Raj, or early-game USSR. Essentially any nation that would consider using Mass Assault will see huge benefits from the 40-width, as they are getting even more firepower-per-frontage from their reduced line infantry combat width as well (that is, assuming you're massing infantry and not artillery or tanks)
I have seen effective use of 40W Light Tank SPG's with just SPG battalions. Usually as Germany they are used to deal massive damage to infantry divisions on the front and then pulled back while medium tanks and motorized use the breakthrough to encircle.
Came here expecting to learn something new ... Guess its good to know I'm on point in how to play the game x) srsly tho .. "add more support companies if you can".. well .. yeah? xD
40 width divisions are the best divisions for invading the soviet union. Its much easier to micro manage a front line of 120 40 width divisions than 240 20 width. Especially since you can prioritize a few generals
Why you loose Veterancy; you get new, inexperienced replacements in your division thus lowering the overal veterancy. why it is not happening right there; It has to wait to be reinforced why it is happening at all; historical accuracy. I came here to be educated not educate. Come on! You should know all this stuff man!
4:53 well actually anything bigger than a light tank yes it's a really really bad idea. But for a light tank if you just want to put two light train divisions with no mechanized you could fly by anybody! You don't want to put them in combat but you can just shoot by
2:50 That's just nonsense. 40 width are absolute meta on basically any fronts (except for infantry in China and Russia). The reason is you can concentrate more power in them. With armored divisions, using 40 width is the only way to ensure your tanks won't be penetrated by low anti tank divisions. 20 width is useful for garrisons and low supply areas, but generally it's 1 40 width > 2 20 width.
They are terrible for Russia :D For USA, they are great. Germany and France absolutely need 40 width. If you went into a serious game of hoi4 and started bulding 20 width tanks, you would get kicked, because 20 width tanks are absolutely useless against players. Against AI they are a maybe.
20 width is only better in areas where supply is low (like Eastern Soviet Union), otherwise 40 will crush them in combat, I use strictly 40 and it works exceedingly well, also you only need 2 groups to cover a full 80 width on an attack, where you need 4 groups at 20 to have the same effectiveness. Also, modifying your default template is just fine, you just have to allow some time for new supplies to arrive and then train them for the lost XP, its certainly a terrible move to do DURING a war, but anytime before you're in war, its not a big deal.
1. True, why would you want to change your template in the middle of the war? BUT. The big BUT here. Which major doesn't have enough XP to get the proper 20CW before they start a war even in 1937? Plus, how long is that under supply going to be? If you hover over the save button (I think), you will see how much manpower and equipment you will need to upgrade all your current divisions in the field (and in training... I think...), so you may want to check that first. If all your frontline is engaged, then okay do a separate template. But while you are it, do no train the template, but slowly change the template of your divisions in the field. Just a little add-on, you lose experience because you put greens in the division. So it averages it. It acts like a veteran army lost 10% of its division in this case and has to fill it up with green soldiers. 2. I have no comment with your 40 CW assumptions, but I highly suggest anyone reading this comment to go to other channels talking about combat widths just to see a different perspective. There are a couple of videos with experiments on this as well (like a 20CW vs 40CW). IIRC 40 CW is better at attacking while 20CW is better at defending. I have many times been bogged down with 20CW divisions so I changed to 40CW and was able to push through with them. 3. HAHAHA... WHAT?! People actually use all-tank division? That is as stupid as doing an all-Artillery Division. XD. Though it is fun to watch others in pain doing it, it is completely retarded to do it in your own game... 4. No comment... Well actually I do, I tried doing this a couple of times before in singleplayer. Did it go well? If it did, I won't be doing it a couple of times only... If you are a major with a lot of manpower and equipment stocked up... yeah sure why not. 5. HAHAHAHA. Oh my lord. I have been doing that before... when space marine was a thing... RIP Space Marines. Another good idea for majors, but not for minors. Also you might want to change it to Tank Destroyers so while you get that juicy armor, you can also pierce the armor of your enemies. 6. No comment... for real XD. Put Engineers and Recons all the time every time. 7. The thing is here... the production cost of the whole division, if you didn't notice, is twice that of the one with regular artillery. You can field twice as much with Regular Artillery than with SPG. True it gives you the armor and soft attack... but do you have the capacity to field a lot of this? Might as well use your production in more efficient endeavors like making twice as much with regular artillery or make actual armor divisions. Not saying SPG is bad, I say it is inefficient. 8. Yeah true... put all the supports you can as long as you have the production capable of supplying them. 9. Ew. No. I'd rather have my hospitals to keep my experience and manpower. Maintenance to keep my equipment and steal my enemy's. Logistics to not get fucked that much in low-supply areas. Signals... never use it, will never use it. Recon and Engineers? Never bothered thinking if I should remove them or not, they are there forever. I only use support artillery when I haven't filled up my supports yet. Those puny bonus is not worth it compared to actual support companies. You are better off putting those in the division itself. But I guess that is just me because it seems people are spamming Support Artilleries. 10. I am playing as Luxembourg and I want 40CW Armor division. I am playing as Venezuela and I want to attack Brazil through the Amazons so I make a 75CW All-Artillery divisions to go through the Amazon. What are you gonna do about it? BITE ME! :)
As a US army intelligence analyst, division templates on this game are almost realistic. Like when I build a division, I use my training to make the “”perfect”” division and it usually works.
Nice video. If I get an artillery designer, does it also reduce the research time for AA and AT? Does motorized designer also reduce research time for mechanized? Do research into artillery, AA, and AT affect SPG? Thank you.
My tips that werent discussed in the video. 1.) when you want to give AA coverage to tank divisions, use light SPAA only, because its cheapest SPAA to build, less reserach, and still has basically the same anti-air dmg against planes, but light SPAA has lowest supply usage. 2.) For docrine like superior firepower, motorized rocket artillery and towed motorized arty etc... are considered line artillery category so they should get damage bonus from shock & awe side of doctrine, where as SP-ART of all types, is considered armor category so they get bonuses from left hand side in superior firepower (airland battle side)
i get that isp told you to do this but i just dont like big channels like that using fans to try to get him more popular. by him asking you to go and tell people do arty only is like me making a video saying go troll people by positing loose civil war as germany, kinda makes me sick seeing channels exploiting fans like this
before this Tbh ill probably get a lot of hate for this but i liked to become OP and i would play sometimes normally but i would sometimes go Researdch all Add _latest _ equipment 100000 As a tiny country and conquer the world for fun and make OP templates now i can do that without cheats also fun fact if u use research all cheat and IC cheat (instant consctruction ) and make tons of fighters and CAS u can destroy maginot as germany
the big difference between the two normal artys and the tank artys is if u replace the two artys with the two tank artys the supply usage increases by 50%
Your first tip sounds more like "Don't edit the template of units in combat" rather than "Don't mess with the templates ever after 1937". Unless you're Spain, or maybe Japan/China, you shouldn't really be getting in heavy combat by 1937.
Actually, it is not a bad idea, you just need a proper general to pull this off. Panzer leader, mountaineer+hill fighter, extremely adoptable = boom, your 40width breakthrough division chews through Alps in Switzerland as it were flats somewhere in Poland)
Complaint Number 1. 40 Width Divisions make alot of Sense depending on your Playstyle A. You get Full use of the Support Companys but only require half the amount of Support than with 2x20 Width Divisions. B. 40 Width Divisions Focus their Attack. Because the Combat System results in each Division Choosing a Target for their Attack. So especially in smaller Battles having 40 Width rather than 20 Width does increase your Focus of Attack causing you to be able to take out single Divisions from the Enemy. C. 40 Width Divisions can take more Damage before they take Debuffs because they are Bigger. D. 40 Width Divisions mean you have a better Chance at Filling the Combat Width thus not taking Debuffs from Enemy Fielding more Width than you. E. 40 Width Divisions have the Advantage of something you yourself pointed out later. Adding a Heavy Tank will count here as well. And you only need 1 Heavy Tank Brigade regardless of it being a 40 or 20 Width Division. In General for your main Combat Divisions it always is Superior to use 40 Width. The Exception is if you use alot of Support Artillery. Unlike other Support Divisions. The Support Artillery will give Set Stats. So they are providing much more Bang on a 10 Width Division than on a 20 Width or a 40 Width. Paratroopers for example should be 10 Width Divisions. And get lots of Support Artillery and Paks etc. Because this Greatly Buffs their Combat Capacity. You can also do 10 Width Infantry Divisions with Support Artillery. Which allows you to actually bring more Firepower to the Field with 4x10 Width than with 1x40 Width. Because 4x Support Artillery in later Game is like 100 Soft Attack Extra. Complaint Numbers 2. Yes Self Propelled is always much Superior given you get the Full Bonus of it. They are Faster. Give better Bonusses and even Add Armor. But its only really Viable if you got Tremendous Industrial Power. Because the Cost is Crazy. 1 Medium Self Propelled costs 3-4 times a Normal Artillery And you need the same amount for a Brigade. So 1 Self Propelled Medium Artillery Brigade Costs you the same as 3-4 Artillery Brigades. So while in the 1 Battle itself the Self Propelled will Win. After 4 Battles your actually ending up Losing. Because the Enemy is just that much outnumbering you. And its also only Viable if you are Fighting in an Area where you have Infrastructure and good Supply Chains. Because they eat up nearly 3 times the Supplies of a Normal Artillery. You even mention that Issue later. And its really cutting with these Divisions :)
Just wanted to say thanks for your videos, recently subscribed and have quickly realised you are the best content creator for these kind of videos I’ve found
Thank you sir! I remember asking about this subject just a few days ago and you already got the video out covering it 🙂 Keep up the quality stuff without overworking yourself. Best regards
You should let people know that the 5-10-20 rules isn’t a rule... it’s more of a guideline. I just fought the 2nd ACW, and to make it a challenge I built up the whole nation rather than just the states I kept. I found out that I needed a lot of decent divisions instead of a ton of ok ones. My infantry ended up as a 3x3 inf. by a 1x3 art. The combat with was around 26, but I didn’t suffer penalties because I never had more than 2 divisions on attacking one tile in a frontal assault.
I put almost 11 batallions of infantry 2 artillery and 2 anti-tanks also engineer, company of comunications,company of recognition and logistic also rocket of support or two rockets batallions
20 width vs 40 width: 40 width will beat two 20 width divisions, and makes better/more efficient use of leaders, since they have a division limit, not a battalion limit. They also make more efficient use of support companies that yield % based bonuses. 20 width is more granular though, allowing you to hold a wider (thinner) front and to get "partial" widths like 60 or 100. If you have the production and manpower to completely pack a theater with 4-5 divisions of 20 width per front line territory, then it is more efficient to migrate to 40 width divisions. If not, stick with 20 width. If you have limited numbers of something (like armor for minors or special forces in general), then 20 width or even 10 width units may make more sense, since that allows you to spread them out to get their unique benefits in more places.
Thank you! Self propelled artty is always the way to go. First and foremost for speed, plus attack values. I always design my units around speed first, so I like to use light tank sp arty, but damage is pretty crucial as well, outflanking is nice, but you need to be able to hold up in a fight as well. But as you showed sp arty is stronger in soft attack as well. So you have the speed, you have thr damage, why people argue this is beyond me. I also really liked your tip about putting a heavy tank in infantry divisions too. I'm starting a new game as Germany. And I have a bunch of infantry units, my initial plan was to massively crank out motorized units and upgrade the infantry template to used motorized instead of ground based infantry. But now I'm seriously considering just throwing in a heavy tank, and using those foot soldiers for defensive positions only. That's what I normally do, I'll create a completely motorized division, and I'll built up my invasion forces around motorization and speed. Using the foot soliders to hold lines, tie up their forces, while my specialized motorized infantry and panzers punch through in specific spots for encirclement. I haven't made up my mind yet, heavy tank, or just make the entire force motorized, but it's given me soemthing else to think about so thanks!
This guide has been super handy for me. I made apparently a ton of errors. I kept playing with the standard infantry template, 18 width, all the way into the 1944's/1945s. I only made a medium tank template once... which I now see is not that wise. I think this explains also the reason why my units kept showing the yellow Exclamation mark, once I moved out of Europe and into afrika and Asia. too much manpower, at a small piece of land.
So basically if you want to cover a longer front with divisions have a smaller width template, right? For a more powerful but smaller front go with larger frontage designed units? Just want to know how to defend as Russia. They always get out manuevred due to them not having a longer enough length of front. Enemy just circles around the flanks.
To Summarize the video as I understand it and some good comments, since 20 minutes is a long time to waste on basic ideas: Basic notes on div creation: Don't edit your base templates in the middle of a war. This will cause all divisions using that template to lose effectiveness. If you want new divisions with an upgraded design use the Duplicate button. 1. Make your divisions multiples of 5 (5-10-20-40) 1a. A single attack vector is 80 width, adding attack from another direction adds 40 width. 1b. Certain situations (like tactical withdrawal, which is 60 width) make divisions smaller and more flexible 1c. Very tiny divisions (5 width) can be an effective strategy for taking and holding territory if you break through an enemies front line. They can't last long against any serious division, but 8 5width divisions can occupy 8 territories. 2. Organization is key. Organization is how long a division can remain in combat. Lower organization, the faster a division breaks off attack. 2a. Pure armor divisions are not effective because their organization is so low they can't fight for long. Mix in some motorized infantry and you get a big bonus 3. Armor and Piercing - critical for being able to stay in the fight and do more damage 3a. Add a heavy tank into your divisions, even if it's just an infantry division. 4. Support companies are EXTREMELY USEFUL 4a. Engineer + Recon are almost essential for every division. They add Entrenchment and mobility, which are always a benefit 4b. The other support slots can be used to adapt to your enemy. Even if your division has artillery battalions, a support artillery company will add a boost for low cost 5. SPGs are good. and relative to the extra production cost provide benefit. If you have a good production base, use them 6. Use common sense when designing your divisions. Figure out what the enemy is doing and adapt to it. 6a. Use Lease Production to peek at your enemy's technology - this will give you insight into how to design your divisions to counter them 6b. While 20 or 40 width divisions of a certain template may be useful across the most situations, a smart commander will adapt divisions to meet their particular needs. (I.E. If you're defending in a place with little infrastructure and the enemy has lots of armor - tiny, easy to maneuver divisions with anti-armor will likely do better than a generic 40-width Inf template.)
Damn. Pure armor divisions are not effective mainly not because of organisation, but because of low HP. Such division can die like in couple of days of fighting and you'll lose all of your tanks.
The one exception i'd say regarding the armor divisions would be if you have faster than motorized light tanks, which is pretty easy to pull off. Then you'd use those as a pure speed divisions. Otherwise I'd agree.
What? i design my divisions based on what looks cool because i have no clue what these numbers mean
Same lol
I have to make a guide about this LOL
In single player it won’t be a problem, since you rarely ever use 4 divisions from 2 tile.
In multiplayer you will get destroyed.
só podia ser brasileiro
@@rafaelcruz3829 Mas é claro kkkkk
Remember my first 60 hour didn't know I was able to train divisions it was hard times
giggity
I played for the same amount of time, but i didn't know how to make armies. It was such cancer trying to micro everything.
Bruh
@@adamwilliams7002 lol i was afraid of declaring war with Germany 😂 so i went to war with the soviets in 1947
@@ebenen36 lmao I once did a world conquest In 1939 and waited 4 years to fight the soviets
40 width can be useful as a volunteer division. You can send twice as many troops to a nation.
yea, you got a point there
oooh smart
That's actually a good point, however for standard day to day use, go mainly 20 with some 10's thrown in for good measure.
Oh dude nice ..like oh thx for tip 👍😄
what , i only do 14/4 spam and some armour /mot/mech thrown in
So Engineers are a new Meta?
Then... *Engineers only.*
-_-
Engineer is spy
Engineer place a dispenser here (battle of Stalingrad) 🔧
*ww1 intensifies*
Fuck now that two fort match is never ending
"Do not make pure armor divisions. I don't know who started this thing..."
Well to answer that... the British. And the French. And the Soviets. Well, basically anyone who wasn't Germany ;).
Yeah, they figured it out the hard way :P
Source if I may ask?
Clausejoke According to wikipedia(yeayea inno :P on mobile so hard to dig up better sources) the British armoured division in 1939 consisted of one heavy armoured brigade, one light armoured brigade(neither having any inf), and a support group with, among other stuff, 2 motinf battalions. Skipping some intermediate changes, it was only in 1942 that they changed the the divisions by replacing one of the armoured brigades with an entire motinf brigade :)
Link en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Armoured_formations_of_World_War_II
.
In the real world armoured units are made up of purely armoured units and of course support units to make the unit function. However, on operations they will form part of a much larger group such as brigades, divisions and corps. In these larger groups armour will always be supported by mechanised infantry and self propelled artillery and or air support. HoI although an enjoyable game is nevertheless just a game, and does not simulate real strategy or war. The winning results in HoI is based on computer computation of numbers and not on blood, guts, or luck. During WW2, Germany initial success was partly based on luck, and the British and French inability to interpret the overall German strategy until it was too late. In the later phase of WW2, the result was based on available resources. No amount of blood, guts and luck could beat huge resources so long as it was properly applied.
@@rockyrowlands3652 A lot of poorer nations will mix their tanks with their infantry corp. USSR for example, a company of infantry was 30 men with support vehicles (including armor). The US for example, armored division are usually supported from the air or mech units.
0:34 Duplicate your templates
2:42 Optimal combat width
4:50 Pure armor divisions, yes or no?
6:18 A good unit to capture enemy territory
7:53 FOR THE EMPEROR (“space marine” template)
9:03 Benefits of Engineers
10:55 Self propelled artillery
13:24 Support brigades and you
14:22 Artillery and support brigades
15:25 Common sense
take the grand battleplan doctrine for 10 entrenchment. Then get engineers maxed. Once you've leveled up your generals and field marshall's enough you can get ambusher and the field marshal trait for 30%+ entrenchment. In my Czechoslovakia game i had 102% entrenchment
Who needs a WW2 sim when you can have a WW1 sim
- Edvard the Germans are offering surrender. Please just accept, the war has been won
- no
>be german soldier
>Czechoslovakia suckers refuse to give the Sudetenland
>invade
>arrive at border.
>Column stops
>walk out
>Czechoslovakian asshats have dug the grand canyon.
>can't push.
>die
Trench warfare best warfare
tank that were made for breakthrough are a waste (just a joke from a HoI4 newbie)
Heavy TDs are better than heavys for infantry. You require less TDs per battalion and have higher piercing.
old school hoi4 when you could make your entire army 40 width marines with HTD bataillon, that shit was so broken
You actually get more breakthrough for infantry. Just saying
Whats td
biss man someone needs to tell us :(
biss man im not sure but i think it’s heavy Tank destroyers...
20 Width Divisions are statistically inferior to 40 Width divisions in every way. The ONLY advantage that 20 width divisions bring is their micro capability, allowing you to spread your forces along a front better, or cycle troops off the frontlines. While these advantages are good, the upsides of 40 Width divisions far outweigh them in most circumstances, especially if you are playing as a Major.
Some of the Advantages include:
1. Increased Attack values increases the possibility of overwhelming enemy defense stats, allowing them to inflict full damage.
2. Increased HP, so when breakthroughs do happen, it is less likely that the Division will be wiped out
3. Increased Defense, allowing you to resist high attack divisions.
4. Support Company efficiency: Offering the same bonuses for the cost of one divisions worth of equipment eg. a 20 width support company and a 40 width support company will use the same supply.
5. Ease of Micro: While 20 Width divisions can be microed more effectively than 40 width divisions... Along an entire front, the ease of 40 width division micromanagement prevents overwork.
6. Reinforcement ticks: If you have two 40 width divisions on the front, rather than four 20 width, you will only need one reinforcement tick to trigger for the extra 40 width, rather than the three for the 20 widths.
7. (Personal Opinion) More Versatility in division creation: While maintaining the same ratios as 20 width divisions, you can still add on additional equipment more easily without sacrificing as much supply%, allowing them to fight better on the front during divisional changes.
arat360 yeah, well said!
soooooo, pretty much what i said except for support companys? 😁
Dustinl796 Videos eh, you didn't say that 40 width deal 4 times as much damage as 20 width
3:30 "The Reason I say 40 Widths are pointless in my opinion" "You can fit 2x20 width for the same resources" "If you have 2 divisions on the exact same spot... that is essentially a 40 width."
Although I will give you that you mentioned the ability to micro your attacking units for organization regain.
Arguably and effectively no.
1. 2x20 Width divisions actually use slightly more manpower than a 40 width, due to the extra support companies associated with them.
2. While yes, a 40 width division does include more men (For which you would assume more casualties), the extra defense and attacks stats actually significantly REDUCES the casualties you will take, allowing you to break enemy Org faster and kill enemy troops faster.
"Always make 5,10, 0r 20 width."
A minute later: "Here's a real useful 2 width."
This guy tought me how to fish instead of givin' me fish. Thats the stuff i like.
the real mayhem in multiplayer will begin when someone realize that you can use a pure, support battalion only, division and paradrop it.
😂
400 hours of HOI and really needed this, thanks man.
damn you suck
Heres one of the most cheesy things i can imagine:
Use heavy Tanks (also called infantry tanks) exactly like they were envisioned to begin with, as mobile fortresses for infantry, increasing their hardness.
Thats literally the doctrine of the day for the british, mobile tank regiments are an exclusivly german thing.
Everyone else historically did exactly that. So no, not cheesy or innovative or anything else.
Ae Norist isnt this normally banned in mp?
@@deathdealer312 they can't handle the neutron style
It isn't historically accirate or realistic in the slightest, lol. How does adding 40 tanks into an army of 20 000 make the infantrymen bulletproof? Because that's essentially what adding a heavy tank battalion into an infantry division does, it gives every unit in the division 30 armor
So space marines in a nutshell.
@@exantiuse497 makes them all fucking space Marines from 40k lmfao
The best division template is artillery only
i get that isp told you to do this but i just dont like big channels like that using fans to try to get him more popular. by him asking you to go and tell people do arty only is like me making a video saying go troll people by positing loose civil war as germany, kinda makes me sick seeing channels exploiting fans like this
i don't think it's exploiting fans though. It's more for a laughs and giggles imo.
Dustinl796 Videos Dude it’s just a joke
NutritiousPie I tried explaining this to him
@@dustinl796 It's just a joke, don't get your tits in a twist.
Tip 1: Duplicate the original template
I have to agree with this one, even though I don't do it.
(2:26 The reason why divisions drop in EXP when you add new battalions is because the new manpower received is green.)
Tip 2: 5/10/20w, not 40w
The 40w/20w debate goes on. 2x20 will take more damage, but will take longer to have their ORG depleted. 1x40 will beat 2x20 in direct combat, but if a 20w can resist, 2x20 is better on defence than 1x40 unless attack is key.
Tip 3: *ADD SOME KIND OF INFNTRY INTO TANK DIVISIONS*
Yep. The _problem_ is that the UK and France both start with pure tanks. 6/4, 5/5, 4/3/2 or 3/4/2 are the standards.
Tip 4: 2w divisions (I call them point-divisions) can capture territory.
True. But they get utterly decimated in combat. But they _are_ useful for cleaning up.
Tip 5: Add HARM
Costs a f*ckton of IC, but it's worth. The usual addition is an HTD battalion, though ARM can be used for BRK or an SPG for SATK.
Tip 6: Add engineers to everything
-I prefer Gunslinger Engies for the extra health and minisentry spam- Entrenchment and terrain boosts, yep. But they cost more than other support battalions in support equipment and sometimes something else could take the slot better. Still, they should be choice #1.
I also put them at the top of the support list, because anything else looks wrong. That's just me though.
Recon, however, can be ditched for Infantry. On MOT or ARM they can be used - though they can be replaced on ARM. *Replaced, not removed.*
Maximum possible entrenchment: 10% base + 20% Trench Warfare + 10% Engineers + 12% Better Engineers + 2% Old Guard + 2% Old guard * 1.3 Def. Doctrine = 72.8%. I may be wrong here, but I think that's the max. (Edit: With WtT you can also get ambusher. This makes the max 85.8, or, if it applies to FMs as well, 94.9) just remember that enough Attack will dislodge them eventually.
Tip 7: SPGs
They are faster than towed, and/or have more attack. They cost more, but can keep up with tanks, and don't use rockets. I repeat, though: they cost more. Look at the IC at 12:20. 769:1381. One of them is over 70% more spammable. Still, good for Space Marines. Though you compared 1936 SPGs with unupgraded arty (did you even take Great War Arty?) which my be a problem.
Tip 8: Use Support Brigades
My argument to this would be that it's not worth the Research Time. And Logistics does not reduce equipment. It actually adds required equipment, including 10 MOT. What it does is reduce supply consumption. They are two different things.
Tip 9: Support Arty (and AA)
Support Arty is basically a mandatory addition to everything except suppression and maybe garrison divisions. Which leaves 0 to 3 free slots depending on whether Logistics, Field Hospitals and Recon are mandatory or not too.
Tip 10: Use common sense!
I f*cking agree. _HOWEVER:_ Licenses can only be done with DoD. I am under the impression that equipment can be disabled from being available to licence, but it's probably false, and I don't have DoD so I can't check.
with that comment about arty, i have 36 arty when doing the video just not the 10% upgrade
random guy
I see you main Engie.
*Is nice.*
With waking the tiger you can get the ambusher trait 4 generals which adds +10% entrenchment
Oof
It's exactly the same with expanding divisions with new units or units replacing lost manpower from combat.
I'm not certain if there is some xp retention mechanic (or if a unit that loses 10% of its manpower loses 10% of its xp as it reinforces), but as you reinforce, your units xp will go down.
That french dude be like: "I am gonna dig a grand canyon of my own."
So you thought the Maginot Line was a joke? Well let's see what you do about this!
BrO jUst do bIcyCle diviSions oNly loL
No
HAHAHA
jitensha shidan so OP
NIPPON BANZAAAAIIII!
New meta?
"If I were to give an exact number; 6-12%" my guy
-_-
@@dustinl796 😂had to do it. Otherwise good video. I feel like the one person who agrees about the 20>40
I'm new to Hearts of iron, and I think this is going to help a lot. I've done really well with understanding industry and my recent playthrough of America taught me a lot about naval combat, I ruled the seas and invaded mainland Japan in that game but for some reason I ALWAYS fail horribly at combat in Europe against Germany, and now I see it's probably the templates I'm using
20 hours of game experience and I didn't know I should duplicate
Glad I was able to help save you some Army experience :-)
I just found that out after 250 hours :/. Needless to say, I feel a little dumb
@@chadam917 me too, well I left it running and just pause it but they are still 250+ hours, and I can't beat the Netherlands as Germany
@@dustinl796 Conditional though, I find I dont have infinite manpower. So If I want to improve the template, I HAVE to upgrade the existing ones. :( Now I have to figure how to do that safely... (playing France)
I currently have 1100 hours and only just figured out I should do that...
When you added that Heavy Tank, the production cost tripled. When you switched from artillery to SPG, the cost of that division doubled. I'd think twice before making either of those changes.
40 width are much more superior to 20 width in attack, due to overwhelming enemies' defence. It's better to have 40 width tanks and 20 width infantry, or just 40 width shock troops with a lot of arty
before watching the video you write this?
maxphophyllite i watched the video. But why does it matter? 40 width rip 20 width to shreads dealing 4 times as much damage
Also, Support Battalions add the same statistics for... In effect, half of the equipment usage.
and you dont need to make so many armies.
arat360 and don't even talk about anti-tank and anti-air
12:20 while yes self propelled gives you 30 soft attack more, the production doubles that of the division with just artillery, making it 220 vs 146, and since the speed is the same is not worth it, but in tank or fast division they are
and i forgot about the penalties atracking of rivers
20 width is good for infantry so you don't run out of units, but the 40 width tank divisions lose less attack and breakthrough from support companies and are better for breaking the line.
My few notes on those tips which are overall good, tip by tip
1) by changing a template to a higher one, the unit that changed won't loose any efficiency based on the supply compared to the initial division it's coming from. So if the unit had 100 soft atk before, after with improved div but without the new equipment, the unit will still be at 100 soft atk.
However, indeed as soon as new men join the division, the unit will loose xp. And once equipment arrive, only then the 100 soft atk will increase.
2) 40 width is superior in combat to 2 * 20 width. But you need to have enough division to hold your front before thinking about going 40, on that part I completly agree.
3) Good
4) Ok, not fully convinced but make perfect sense
5) I would say watch out for the terrain malus from the heavy tank. Also, the armor is 70% base on best brigade and 30% on average. It's not 100% best brigade, just to clarify
6) Good
7) Ok, just note that in your case, production cost went from 698-769 to 1310-1381 between ART and SPART. That's almost a ART div more !
So I would say : if production follows but manpower need to be secured, YES. Otherwise 2 ART div will beat the 1 SPART
8) Good
9) Good
10) Good
Overall quite nice
“If somehow Germany became a god at the sea...”
Me: yea stop right there bud. I don’t need to be a god.
Also Me: *Operation sea lions the UK then island hops to Canada*
Exclusively with submarines LOL
th-cam.com/video/HukzW2LMyC0/w-d-xo.html my sub only Germany
The video is +2 hours
well over 3000 hours mainly as Germany. You can take out Polish & Czechs before end of 1937 accelerating all aspects of the game. Thus you do not need all the sophisticated templates touted. Keep it simple & make best use of factories & tech research by concentrating on just a few units. 10CW PNZ's can do the job without SPG's and 20CW infantry is perfectly adequate, even in Barbarossa. Try it :D
maybe your self propelled arty is better cause of doctrine bonus from blitzkrieg tree.
The bonuses i get from fire power tree wont work on SPGs
I stopped taking you seriously once you said 20Ws are better than 40Ws. In 3000 hours, you'd know better.
Same with adding artillery supp to your tanks & maintenance to infantry.
well i said im most situations they are better, for russia and usa yes. but as germany and itally no sense you need to cover fronts and manpower issues and so on
Dustinl796 Videos Your sort of right, that you can't guard a lot of borders with 40's, but as Germany you should be able to take out the Benelux, Poland, and any resistance in the Balkans, and France unless they're a good player, and maybe Norway. Once you have all of those countries dealt with and you've garrisoned them, you should switch your infantry to 40w, which you use to take on the Soviets. You don't start making 40's right off the bat
Dustinl796 Videos and for manpower, rush the extra 5% at the end of mobile warfare
Also, these are no "hate trains". I'm pointing out what's wrong in the video. With ALL majors, no exceptions, you can have 40Ws. Tho, I prefer 20Ws with japan until china's over. If you can't have enough divisions with USA/Germany to cover all the fronts, then something's wrong with your macro. Also, SPG's are good, just not the mediums. And going last left with mobile warfare is one of the most retarded things I've heard.
FDX wtf are you talking about "hate trains". You can pretty easily cover all fronts with 40's, but some people prefer 20s early game just for the sake of having more divisions. And while modern blitzkrieg is good, I prefer to not get -10% factory output cause of service by requirement
40w is love, 40w is life. especially if all you have is manpower and mosins to throw at the problem... and with the -.4 combat width bonus, you can just slamjam bodies into the meat grinder until everyone capitulates from running out of bullets.
Have you ever test run an equal 40 width against 2 twenty width? Even with the extra support artillery, the twenties lose every time. You can fit more battalions in a general with 40 width divisions. Because of the way reserves work, forty width only has to roll one die instead of two dice. Also, the mechanics of how attack vs defense and soft attack vs breakthrough works, 40 widths end up taking less organizational and strength damage against two equal enemy divisions at twenty each. They both have their advantages, but you seem to have underestimated 40 width. There's more benefits too. Of course twenty width definitely have their place in hoi4, 40 width do too.
Example being motorised divisions or cav (line holders after your tanks spearhead to make encirclements) are good twenty widither divisions. For mobile tanks, forty width to maximize breakthrough and attack to spearhead quicker.
This is really well done. I finally understand much more after hearing so many videos simply elude to x/y/z combat widths
Thx 😁
The reason that it looks like units use xp is because as manpower is added (or replaced) they naturally lose xp, this is why the Field Hospital is so nice, its due to it preserving manpower and it stopping it from being replaced constantly, this allows units to gain xp faster then the manpower reinforcements can drain it.
yea i was still sorta new to tutorials at the time of making this video
thanks, really helped me since I had no idea what "22 combat width" meant.
@Dustinl796 Videos 5:00 not sure if it was Tukhachevsky or Vladimir Triandafillov but i'm pretty sure Soviet were the one started the whole idea of full tank corps
Well , they were beaten hard by germany with a mixed divisions before switch to tank brigades mixed with motorized rifle brigades corps
I get what you are saying about the 40 width, but 2 20 widths is not better than a 40 width. If enemy defense is 100 and your 20 width attack is 60, both attackers will not deal full damage. If you attack with a 40 width with 120 attack, it will go over the enemy defense and cause much more damage, which is a weird system for this game and kind of silly but that's just how it is. Dealing over the defense gives a 4x damage multiplier i believe.
Only viable for huge nations though. I never use except with soviets and Germany late game.
its not weird at all. what is happening is that you are basically concentrating fire on a single enemy unit intending to break it instead of splitting your fire on many small units which is a viable tactic even IRL
@@a.f.nik.4210 Yeah that makes sense.
When two 20w division is attacking single 40w division they are attacking with 120 combined attack points. 100 of them will be tanked by defense, so only 10 % will hit, and 20 will do max 40% damage.
modifying the original division is the BEST way to go ESPECIAL late game where you cant deploy the new units where you would like to, the trick is to have already produced the vast majority of the new equipment needed and obviously don't do it when your forces are stressed
Thank you for the tips. I am very new to the game. And yes there are always people that now it better then everyone else. But you made your comments and then supported them. Myself going to try them.Many,many thanks. And at least you stepped up.
Production often affects my division templates since I like playing as medium sized countries. I go for Infantry Divisions with support artillery, engineers, and recons. Then I have at least 1 artillery battalion. For Tanks I find myself using light tanks since my production capacity is limited, but often will try to get at least 1 medium or heavy.
I’ve only been watching you for a week and ure already my favorite hoi4 TH-camr
thanks! :)
I have a thing about preserving my manpower as much as possible so I like to do 40 width infantry, 14/4 with artillery
Light tank divisions I usually do 30 width 10/5 with motorized or mechanized
Medium tanks I do 40 width 10/10 motor or mech. Been experimenting with 15/5 though
OMG... I come from HOI2 and just start to play HOI4 just recently, and oh boy, I have a long way to go lol
with la resistance being added you can now have way more insight in your enemies army so you can design your divisions based on that
10:28 french soldier being like : forts ? what forts ? ho, you mean these trenches ?
Most youtubers: "Leave comments if you disagree or have ideas!" Dustin796: 13:20 Seriously though. 12 production vs 3? You tried to brush that off like it's nothing. A 25% soft attack increase for 4x the production cost is pretty mediocre. Also, maintenance companies is pretty bad on infantry div's. Anti-air is useless if you have air superiority or if the enemy isn't running ground support missions.
Ahhhh...someone mentioned to put a heavy tank battalion into infantry. Nice job! But one thing that is even more cheesy is to put one battalion of heavy tank destroyers! It works like a charm.
oooo, misa likee
If you only want the armor use heavy AA, cheapest needing the less # of tanks per battalion, should also give pierce
These armor variants both have the same number of equipment per battalion. Even if heavy aa are cheaper, they are not THAT much cheaper to sacrifice sheer power that heavy tank destroyer gives you.
Edit: they don't have the same number of equipment, they used to
no, that's wrong. They do not have the same number of equipment per battalion. Super-Heavy SP-AA is actually cheaper than a light tank battalion
@@trogdortheburninator9681 I did a check and you are correct, they do not have the same number of equipment, they must have changed that because I clearly remember they had the same amount.
If you use the right side of the mass assault division, with any country, you can build up industry and spam overpowered 40.5 widths that are so good. Especially if you combine that with overwhelming air power, you won’t even need tanks. If you add field hospitals and logistics companies, with the right side of the mass assault doctrine, you will practically get no negatives from supply, even if you stack forty widths on a small front, and you can use this with any country because the field hospitals make sure that you don’t lose many troops. I did this as the UK and I was actually gaining manpower, while losing wntire divisions trying to navally invade a late-game Germany.
Lmao. The tips about the two-width-motorized and heavy tank with infantry were amazing. Great video!
thanks!
btw fyi, L SPA 2 has the same soft attack as the M SPA 1 has. both have 42.
and L SPA has 9.0 production cost while M SPA 1 has 12. could be useful to know,
also LSPA 2 1 oil 3 steel and 1 tungsten to make MSPA 1 however is 1 oil 3 tungsten and 2 steel, so if you only able to procure small amounts of tungsten LSPA 2 might be a better choice.
you are forgetting that you can have more fire power in one general or one water landing if u have 40 width divisions
Fun fact. training level is based solely on manpower reinforcements. That is, adding any manpower to a unit adds that manpower ratio of "green" -100% training to the unit. So taking your 3x3 starting div and adding and adding an extra infantry battalion averages out the division's XP to 1 "green" -100% vs 9 "regular" 100% as the new manpower reinforces. This also means that equipment losses do not reduce your units' training level. Only casualties. Just something I noticed when under-equipped divisions never dropped training level as their guns slowly got built. This also allows you to train an under-equipped division to regular and keep it there, but not an understaffed division. Because of the way training works, divisions with more training train faster, so a division with "trained" 150% will get to regular in less time than it took the division to get from "trained" 0% to "trained" 50%. For this reason, it is most efficient (on equipment spent during training) to add only one thing (be it infantry, arty, engis), then train to regular, then add more bits. Also, swapping a piece out counts as first removing the original and then adding a new one. This is why swapping infantry to arty in the base template drains training level, because you have effectively changed your division from 9 "regular" 100% to 7 "regular" 100% and 2 (smaller) "green" -100%.
It's not the same as a 40 width.
Two 20 width divisions fighting one 40 width or vice versa will go in favor of the 40 because it's able to deal all it's damage to one of the smaller divisions and knock them out of combat. Reman actually made a video about this
Also didn't you make a video featuring an armor only div template?
i did but at the time explained only make it if you have thousands stockpiled, if its light tanks it works, but medium tanks never make a full med tank div
I don't agree about 40-widths being pointless. 2 20-widths, if you have a full kit of support equipment, requires literally twice as much support equipment and manpower. The size of the support battalions remains the same in both the 20-wide and the 40-wide but when you have 2 20-wide, you are fielding exactly twice as many support battalions, requiring twice as much support manpower and production.
Essentially, 40-widths are a way to equip vaster stores of troops with less support equipment per frontline battalion. They mainly make sense for nations with high manpower that struggle to equip all that manpower adequately due to low industrial base, eg. China, British Raj, or early-game USSR. Essentially any nation that would consider using Mass Assault will see huge benefits from the 40-width, as they are getting even more firepower-per-frontage from their reduced line infantry combat width as well (that is, assuming you're massing infantry and not artillery or tanks)
So many mistakes were made on my side. This video has indeed improved my skill
I have seen effective use of 40W Light Tank SPG's with just SPG battalions. Usually as Germany they are used to deal massive damage to infantry divisions on the front and then pulled back while medium tanks and motorized use the breakthrough to encircle.
Came here expecting to learn something new ... Guess its good to know I'm on point in how to play the game x) srsly tho .. "add more support companies if you can".. well .. yeah? xD
40 width divisions are the best divisions for invading the soviet union. Its much easier to micro manage a front line of 120 40 width divisions than 240 20 width. Especially since you can prioritize a few generals
Why you loose Veterancy; you get new, inexperienced replacements in your division thus lowering the overal veterancy.
why it is not happening right there; It has to wait to be reinforced
why it is happening at all; historical accuracy.
I came here to be educated not educate. Come on! You should know all this stuff man!
4:53 well actually anything bigger than a light tank yes it's a really really bad idea. But for a light tank if you just want to put two light train divisions with no mechanized you could fly by anybody! You don't want to put them in combat but you can just shoot by
2:50 That's just nonsense. 40 width are absolute meta on basically any fronts (except for infantry in China and Russia). The reason is you can concentrate more power in them. With armored divisions, using 40 width is the only way to ensure your tanks won't be penetrated by low anti tank divisions. 20 width is useful for garrisons and low supply areas, but generally it's 1 40 width > 2 20 width.
yea but like i said, 40 widths are good for russia and usa. but hardly anyone else in a sereious game
They are terrible for Russia :D For USA, they are great. Germany and France absolutely need 40 width. If you went into a serious game of hoi4 and started bulding 20 width tanks, you would get kicked, because 20 width tanks are absolutely useless against players. Against AI they are a maybe.
Dustinl796 Videos france, britain, germany, japan, romania, italy...
40 Widths are just absolute meta, and it's weird that you are denying this while making HOI4 guide videos
Dan Machyl he has almost 4000 hours... my god...
20 width is only better in areas where supply is low (like Eastern Soviet Union), otherwise 40 will crush them in combat, I use strictly 40 and it works exceedingly well, also you only need 2 groups to cover a full 80 width on an attack, where you need 4 groups at 20 to have the same effectiveness. Also, modifying your default template is just fine, you just have to allow some time for new supplies to arrive and then train them for the lost XP, its certainly a terrible move to do DURING a war, but anytime before you're in war, its not a big deal.
20w have more total organization, so they will win it with more causality. I wrote more in comment above.
1. True, why would you want to change your template in the middle of the war? BUT. The big BUT here. Which major doesn't have enough XP to get the proper 20CW before they start a war even in 1937? Plus, how long is that under supply going to be? If you hover over the save button (I think), you will see how much manpower and equipment you will need to upgrade all your current divisions in the field (and in training... I think...), so you may want to check that first. If all your frontline is engaged, then okay do a separate template. But while you are it, do no train the template, but slowly change the template of your divisions in the field.
Just a little add-on, you lose experience because you put greens in the division. So it averages it. It acts like a veteran army lost 10% of its division in this case and has to fill it up with green soldiers.
2. I have no comment with your 40 CW assumptions, but I highly suggest anyone reading this comment to go to other channels talking about combat widths just to see a different perspective. There are a couple of videos with experiments on this as well (like a 20CW vs 40CW). IIRC 40 CW is better at attacking while 20CW is better at defending. I have many times been bogged down with 20CW divisions so I changed to 40CW and was able to push through with them.
3. HAHAHA... WHAT?! People actually use all-tank division? That is as stupid as doing an all-Artillery Division. XD. Though it is fun to watch others in pain doing it, it is completely retarded to do it in your own game...
4. No comment... Well actually I do, I tried doing this a couple of times before in singleplayer. Did it go well? If it did, I won't be doing it a couple of times only... If you are a major with a lot of manpower and equipment stocked up... yeah sure why not.
5. HAHAHAHA. Oh my lord. I have been doing that before... when space marine was a thing... RIP Space Marines. Another good idea for majors, but not for minors. Also you might want to change it to Tank Destroyers so while you get that juicy armor, you can also pierce the armor of your enemies.
6. No comment... for real XD. Put Engineers and Recons all the time every time.
7. The thing is here... the production cost of the whole division, if you didn't notice, is twice that of the one with regular artillery. You can field twice as much with Regular Artillery than with SPG. True it gives you the armor and soft attack... but do you have the capacity to field a lot of this? Might as well use your production in more efficient endeavors like making twice as much with regular artillery or make actual armor divisions. Not saying SPG is bad, I say it is inefficient.
8. Yeah true... put all the supports you can as long as you have the production capable of supplying them.
9. Ew. No. I'd rather have my hospitals to keep my experience and manpower. Maintenance to keep my equipment and steal my enemy's. Logistics to not get fucked that much in low-supply areas. Signals... never use it, will never use it. Recon and Engineers? Never bothered thinking if I should remove them or not, they are there forever. I only use support artillery when I haven't filled up my supports yet. Those puny bonus is not worth it compared to actual support companies. You are better off putting those in the division itself. But I guess that is just me because it seems people are spamming Support Artilleries.
10. I am playing as Luxembourg and I want 40CW Armor division. I am playing as Venezuela and I want to attack Brazil through the Amazons so I make a 75CW All-Artillery divisions to go through the Amazon. What are you gonna do about it? BITE ME! :)
As a US army intelligence analyst, division templates on this game are almost realistic. Like when I build a division, I use my training to make the “”perfect”” division and it usually works.
Nice video. If I get an artillery designer, does it also reduce the research time for AA and AT? Does motorized designer also reduce research time for mechanized? Do research into artillery, AA, and AT affect SPG? Thank you.
to all your questions... yes
Dustinl796 Videos Thanks OP.
My tips that werent discussed in the video. 1.) when you want to give AA coverage to tank divisions, use light SPAA only, because its cheapest SPAA to build, less reserach, and still has basically the same anti-air dmg against planes, but light SPAA has lowest supply usage. 2.) For docrine like superior firepower, motorized rocket artillery and towed motorized arty etc... are considered line artillery category so they should get damage bonus from shock & awe side of doctrine, where as SP-ART of all types, is considered armor category so they get bonuses from left hand side in superior firepower (airland battle side)
Artillery only template > Everything else
i get that isp told you to do this but i just dont like big channels like that using fans to try to get him more popular. by him asking you to go and tell people do arty only is like me making a video saying go troll people by positing loose civil war as germany, kinda makes me sick seeing channels exploiting fans like this
Mr Vlad. I unsubbed
*your, beat you guys to it
before this Tbh ill probably get a lot of hate for this but i liked to become OP and i would play sometimes normally but i would sometimes go Researdch all Add _latest _ equipment 100000 As a tiny country and conquer the world for fun and make OP templates now i can do that without cheats also fun fact if u use research all cheat and IC cheat (instant consctruction ) and make tons of fighters and CAS u can destroy maginot as germany
I am new to the game and its not simple the first few times
the big difference between the two normal artys and the tank artys is if u replace the two artys with the two tank artys the supply usage increases by 50%
Your first tip sounds more like "Don't edit the template of units in combat" rather than "Don't mess with the templates ever after 1937".
Unless you're Spain, or maybe Japan/China, you shouldn't really be getting in heavy combat by 1937.
Thanks man, I keep coming back to your videos and they always help me out a tremendous amount, thanks man you're the best!
Glad to hear it, and also glad to hear or what I would assume you did you enjoy the video 😁
I personally just throw everything at them without strategy. Works every time.
lol
My ususal motto is: How are they gonna know what I'm doing if I don't know it myself?
@@Nick-rs5if Exactly
About the single motorized battalion division, wouldn't it be better to use a single light tank since it has a higher max speed?
Sorta, motorized are cheaper to build so if its lost its not too big a deal. Loght tanks add another production line
Putting 2 SParty in your division doubled its cost. Sure it's better, but twice as good? Doubt that
try it, i did and punched straight through Russian 40 widths like a knife through butter
Rooz if it has a shield, it's totally worth it
i usually build 40width tank divisions when i am forced to and when i make them well lets just say it maqkes the enemy bleed
Oof,
I don’t want to sound sarcastic but your last tip was the best one in my opinion *ATTACKS WITH TANKS IN A MOUNTAIN AREA*
:)
Actually, it is not a bad idea, you just need a proper general to pull this off.
Panzer leader, mountaineer+hill fighter, extremely adoptable = boom, your 40width breakthrough division chews through Alps in Switzerland as it were flats somewhere in Poland)
honestly, it's best if you have thicc hearths of iron mod, as everything is scaled up, you get bonus for hard terrain
Is it a good idea to use the medic support companys? Ps I am a noob
Despacito
this is how we do it down in puerta rico! (CUE THE HURRICANE FOOTAGE!) 😂
@@dustinl796 hahahah nice one
Complaint Number 1.
40 Width Divisions make alot of Sense depending on your Playstyle
A.
You get Full use of the Support Companys but only require half the amount of Support than with 2x20 Width Divisions.
B.
40 Width Divisions Focus their Attack. Because the Combat System results in each Division Choosing a Target for their Attack. So especially in smaller Battles having 40 Width rather than 20 Width does increase your Focus of Attack causing you to be able to take out single Divisions from the Enemy.
C.
40 Width Divisions can take more Damage before they take Debuffs because they are Bigger.
D.
40 Width Divisions mean you have a better Chance at Filling the Combat Width thus not taking Debuffs from Enemy Fielding more Width than you.
E.
40 Width Divisions have the Advantage of something you yourself pointed out later.
Adding a Heavy Tank will count here as well. And you only need 1 Heavy Tank Brigade regardless of it being a 40 or 20 Width Division.
In General for your main Combat Divisions it always is Superior to use 40 Width.
The Exception is if you use alot of Support Artillery.
Unlike other Support Divisions. The Support Artillery will give Set Stats.
So they are providing much more Bang on a 10 Width Division than on a 20 Width or a 40 Width.
Paratroopers for example should be 10 Width Divisions. And get lots of Support Artillery and Paks etc.
Because this Greatly Buffs their Combat Capacity.
You can also do 10 Width Infantry Divisions with Support Artillery.
Which allows you to actually bring more Firepower to the Field with 4x10 Width than with 1x40 Width.
Because 4x Support Artillery in later Game is like 100 Soft Attack Extra.
Complaint Numbers 2.
Yes Self Propelled is always much Superior given you get the Full Bonus of it.
They are Faster. Give better Bonusses and even Add Armor.
But its only really Viable if you got Tremendous Industrial Power.
Because the Cost is Crazy.
1 Medium Self Propelled costs 3-4 times a Normal Artillery
And you need the same amount for a Brigade.
So 1 Self Propelled Medium Artillery Brigade Costs you the same as 3-4 Artillery Brigades.
So while in the 1 Battle itself the Self Propelled will Win.
After 4 Battles your actually ending up Losing.
Because the Enemy is just that much outnumbering you.
And its also only Viable if you are Fighting in an Area where you have Infrastructure and good Supply Chains.
Because they eat up nearly 3 times the Supplies of a Normal Artillery.
You even mention that Issue later.
And its really cutting with these Divisions :)
You are wrong about 40 widths, whether its good for infantry is debatable, but its so much better for tanks especially like medium self proppeled.
that was a point i meant to make but forgot it.
Just wanted to say thanks for your videos, recently subscribed and have quickly realised you are the best content creator for these kind of videos I’ve found
😉 Thanks!
Thank you sir!
I remember asking about this subject just a few days ago and you already got the video out covering it 🙂
Keep up the quality stuff without overworking yourself. Best regards
Thanks! 😊
Finally, a worthy video! My multiplayer games shall be legendary!
These are actually good tips. Tank you.
Great Explanation now I wanna play Hoi4 again
You should let people know that the 5-10-20 rules isn’t a rule... it’s more of a guideline.
I just fought the 2nd ACW, and to make it a challenge I built up the whole nation rather than just the states I kept. I found out that I needed a lot of decent divisions instead of a ton of ok ones. My infantry ended up as a 3x3 inf. by a 1x3 art. The combat with was around 26, but I didn’t suffer penalties because I never had more than 2 divisions on attacking one tile in a frontal assault.
Very good video thank you
Np :)
I put almost 11 batallions of infantry 2 artillery and 2 anti-tanks also engineer, company of comunications,company of recognition and logistic also rocket of support or two rockets batallions
and rockets as support
20 width vs 40 width:
40 width will beat two 20 width divisions, and makes better/more efficient use of leaders, since they have a division limit, not a battalion limit. They also make more efficient use of support companies that yield % based bonuses.
20 width is more granular though, allowing you to hold a wider (thinner) front and to get "partial" widths like 60 or 100.
If you have the production and manpower to completely pack a theater with 4-5 divisions of 20 width per front line territory, then it is more efficient to migrate to 40 width divisions. If not, stick with 20 width.
If you have limited numbers of something (like armor for minors or special forces in general), then 20 width or even 10 width units may make more sense, since that allows you to spread them out to get their unique benefits in more places.
"Use common sense when using divisions."
Me: "Lol, you got it pal."
Thank you! Self propelled artty is always the way to go. First and foremost for speed, plus attack values. I always design my units around speed first, so I like to use light tank sp arty, but damage is pretty crucial as well, outflanking is nice, but you need to be able to hold up in a fight as well. But as you showed sp arty is stronger in soft attack as well. So you have the speed, you have thr damage, why people argue this is beyond me.
I also really liked your tip about putting a heavy tank in infantry divisions too. I'm starting a new game as Germany. And I have a bunch of infantry units, my initial plan was to massively crank out motorized units and upgrade the infantry template to used motorized instead of ground based infantry. But now I'm seriously considering just throwing in a heavy tank, and using those foot soldiers for defensive positions only.
That's what I normally do, I'll create a completely motorized division, and I'll built up my invasion forces around motorization and speed. Using the foot soliders to hold lines, tie up their forces, while my specialized motorized infantry and panzers punch through in specific spots for encirclement.
I haven't made up my mind yet, heavy tank, or just make the entire force motorized, but it's given me soemthing else to think about so thanks!
Good video thanks for the tips, I was a bit intimidated by the whole template system now it makes a bit more sense.
Glad to help 😁
This guide has been super handy for me. I made apparently a ton of errors.
I kept playing with the standard infantry template, 18 width, all the way into the 1944's/1945s. I only made a medium tank template once... which I now see is not that wise.
I think this explains also the reason why my units kept showing the yellow Exclamation mark, once I moved out of Europe and into afrika and Asia. too much manpower, at a small piece of land.
But I was able to help and hopefully made your game or enjoyable :-)
@@dustinl796 It really did help and made the game more enjoyable.
Im new to the game and Im still learning, this is so useful! thx bud!
Glad I could help!
So basically if you want to cover a longer front with divisions have a smaller width template, right? For a more powerful but smaller front go with larger frontage designed units? Just want to know how to defend as Russia. They always get out manuevred due to them not having a longer enough length of front. Enemy just circles around the flanks.
@Yassine Ipekli why tho?
I don't agree with everything, but they thank you for the 'request landlease' button. Never thought of using this for reconnaissance.
To Summarize the video as I understand it and some good comments, since 20 minutes is a long time to waste on basic ideas:
Basic notes on div creation:
Don't edit your base templates in the middle of a war. This will cause all divisions using that template to lose effectiveness.
If you want new divisions with an upgraded design use the Duplicate button.
1. Make your divisions multiples of 5 (5-10-20-40)
1a. A single attack vector is 80 width, adding attack from another direction adds 40 width.
1b. Certain situations (like tactical withdrawal, which is 60 width) make divisions smaller and more flexible
1c. Very tiny divisions (5 width) can be an effective strategy for taking and holding territory if you break through an enemies front line. They can't last long against any serious division, but 8 5width divisions can occupy 8 territories.
2. Organization is key.
Organization is how long a division can remain in combat. Lower organization, the faster a division breaks off attack.
2a. Pure armor divisions are not effective because their organization is so low they can't fight for long. Mix in some motorized infantry and you get a big bonus
3. Armor and Piercing - critical for being able to stay in the fight and do more damage
3a. Add a heavy tank into your divisions, even if it's just an infantry division.
4. Support companies are EXTREMELY USEFUL
4a. Engineer + Recon are almost essential for every division. They add Entrenchment and mobility, which are always a benefit
4b. The other support slots can be used to adapt to your enemy. Even if your division has artillery battalions, a support artillery company will add a boost for low cost
5. SPGs are good. and relative to the extra production cost provide benefit. If you have a good production base, use them
6. Use common sense when designing your divisions. Figure out what the enemy is doing and adapt to it.
6a. Use Lease Production to peek at your enemy's technology - this will give you insight into how to design your divisions to counter them
6b. While 20 or 40 width divisions of a certain template may be useful across the most situations, a smart commander will adapt divisions to meet their particular needs. (I.E. If you're defending in a place with little infrastructure and the enemy has lots of armor - tiny, easy to maneuver divisions with anti-armor will likely do better than a generic 40-width Inf template.)
0_0
Damn. Pure armor divisions are not effective mainly not because of organisation, but because of low HP. Such division can die like in couple of days of fighting and you'll lose all of your tanks.
Dude AWESOME VIDEO!!! Thanks for the info!
The one exception i'd say regarding the armor divisions would be if you have faster than motorized light tanks, which is pretty easy to pull off. Then you'd use those as a pure speed divisions. Otherwise I'd agree.