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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 พ.ค. 2024
- Iceland's widespread use of genetic testing means people can "pick and choose" which children to bring into the world. These prenatal screenings, which have all but eliminated Down Syndrome, are raising some serious ethical questions. Elaine Quijano takes us through the debate for "CBSN: After the Assignment."
Why is it that in all documentaries I've seen about down syndrome they only show the cute kids that can play and interact with others? Why do they never show the ones who can't talk, or read, or interact, and those who hurt themselves by kicking themselves in the head and so forth? It's very dishonest. People seem to have the idea that all down syndrome kids are going to be easy to treat, but in most cases (and all I've seen in real life), they are absolutely 100% dependent on their parents for everything. People should stop demonizing parents who decide to terminate their pregnancy. If not, they should lead by example and adopt a kid with the syndrome and take care of him themselves. It's easy to just complain and then do nothing.
Exactly! They never show them weighing 200 pounds and punching you like Mohamed Ali when they can't have their way. On a popular Down's "reality" show one girl belted her mother. They blurred it out. Played it down. It's sad.
considering i know several people with down syndrome and raised in the same household with one, the above statement you just said is almost 100% false and prejudice
all cases? really? i have seen some people with ds in my life, not all of them show this level of cerebral disfunction, and it ends up really being a spectrum, some have more problems, some have less. Saying that all of them will be 100% dependent on their carer is just a lie, ds people work, they go to school, they get married and have kids. i've seen people with ds go to college by themselves, living at their own home and providing for themselves. some need more help than others, true, but to say that all of them or that most are that dependent for everything? that is just your own prejudice
Ddrssdd D
Another thing I find odd is these same people who will complain about Down syndrome abortions,generally have the opinion its a woman's RIGHT to have an abortion. So...they have no problem with millions of healthy babies every year, but if a woman aborts because of a genetic issue like down syndrome, THATS a problem..The other thing is that as a society we selectively breed animals to have those that are strong, healthy, free of defect, etc for many reasons. But when it comes to children we dont face reality. Through civilized history only the strong survived. In nature only the strong survive..Its a dilemma, but there seem to be too many hypocrites and people who make decisions based on emotion rather than FACTS, and LOGIC..
I have had MANY kids with down-syndrome try to fight me when I was in school. I would try to be nice to them then they would follow me around and then eventually lose it - and get really mad. So, all you people saying that these kids NEVER do that have obviously never been ASSAULTED by a kid with down-syndrome. I have been punched, kicked, and TACKLED. So NO, not all down-syndrome kids are peaceful jolly balls of fun.
no dilemma here at all. the parents decide to take the genetic test. then they decide what to do when the results come in. no body else should have any say in that decision. period.
franklin field same with abortion based on gender if someone wants a boy instead of a girl they should abort the girl and try again I hope that the gay gene is real and discovered no more of them will be born
+Daragh O'kane
There is no gay gene stupid.
Brunon Kowalski that's why I said I hope it's real. Implying that it's probably not real
Koehli _ if your pro abortion you shouldn't be against this people are hypocrites. That instead of saying I don't know it's a complicated issue feel the need to pick a side even if they don't 100% agree with it.
Koehli _ if someone said I'm a libertarian and I believed everyone has a right to there body and the government should get out I would say good point. If someone's said all life is sacred we don't have the right to end it I would be fine with that also. But you can't mix and match the two.
depending on the economic status of the family, disability can take a whole family out
It depends on which country you live in. Rich countries with functioning welfare system can take care of these people, such as Western Europe. On the other hand, if you live in corrupt countries with broken system, such as America, or in poor countries it could be more problematic. However, all children are economic burdens, no matter what.
You can always put a baby up for adoption.
Yup. I am the last of my bloodline on my father's side. I am Mentally disabled and I will never have children.
@@michaeldonlon8239 Don't know if that is actually better. What if they don't get adopted and have to spend their whole lives struggling in the care system? It isn't really common to find selfless people who want to go out of their way to have a special needs child
depending on the moral status of a person or people... one bad ethic can take millions of people out.
I've been physically disabled my whole life, and grew up in the hospital. Many of the kids I knew that I was friends with were in foster care because their parents didn't want them, or couldn't handle caring for them and gave them up. My mother was capable of handling it thank goodness, but many of my friends were being raised in the system because their family didn't want them, or were being fostered by the nurses that were also caring for them in the hospital. Children are already such a huge responsibility, most people can't imagine what it takes to raise a disabled child- and it doesn't just stop at 18 either; it's lifelong. Not everyone can handle that responsibility, and if a parent doesn't think they can do it, it's not up for society to guilt them into keeping an unwanted pregnancy.
By that logic, it's also not up to society from keeping serial killers, rapists, and etc on a killing spree since it's their pro choice
Which of the arguments you just made would not apply to your friends today? Why don’t we start killing them right now?
Bearistotle because they’re already born. Duh.
@@bearistotle2820 go on go on if u have the balls. U ppl are infuriating u obv know what hes talking abt and the tacit understanding of boundaries yet ur trying to paint him as making a stupid argument. The fact is u guys have fundementally different views and yall not gonna change eithers mind so go and voice ur opinions on the general page instead of voicing it as a reply to his comment
not just that.. you have to see it like this i'd rather have a child be aborted than that they live a life of suffering because their parents can't care for them.. (then again this is also why i'd rather adopt than have a kid of my own i think it is better to give a kid who is already there a home than to put another into this horrid world) in my opinion you should follow what is best for you.. if you know you can't care for them if they have a disability then i think it is better to abort than to keep the kid to just have it be thrown into a cess pool of unwantedness and just selfe loathing.. another point i'd have is that if there are less people who are born with issues like these there will be in turn more space for care for others that also need it.. the elderly for example.. in my country there is currently a whole issue regarding healthcare there are too many people who need care.. less people that need care would thus in turn mean that the ones who need care that were already there or got their disability later on or because of a disease after they were born for some other reason (perhaps an accident) they could get more of what they need instead of having to invest in people who can literally do nothing (i am mostly talking about the worst cases wich could defenitely have been prevented) because what kind of life do they have? they can't speak walk or anything they will never have anyone or have kids of their own because they are mentally unable to.. (though i would say that if it is a physical issue that isn't life threathening like missing a leg or something i'd be fine with it.. you can easily live with something like that and can still be like others and eventually possibly having a family unless you don't want it.. )
Its nobodies decision but the parents, if you want to raise a kid with downs syndrome, go for it..have fun BUT don't think you have any right to tell anyone else they cannot make the best decisions for themselves.
Having a genetic test like this is amazing IMO!
nobody's*
murilo ninj I'm a nurse and I have seen dowsing syndrome tests be wrong many times a small percentage but it still happens
I'm a nurse and have seen the test for down syndrome be wrong many times a small percentage but still wrong
You've seen a prenatal test for Down Syndrome be wrong "many times". A test with a .1% false positive rate? Yeah, okay.
murilo ninj well taxpayers have to foot the bill so its not just the parents decision. Looks like Iceland are doing the right thing.
"Do we want to eradicate all these illnessess, all these abnormalities?" Yes, we do.
But that is a sly way of phrasing the question. How about:
'Do we want to eradicate all these ill people, all these abnormal people?'
Is your answer still 'Yes, we do.' ?
Or are you setting an arbitrary limit, defining some humans as people and some -
the 'ill' and 'abnormal' - as not?
Where does that lead? Have we seen something like that before?
The question is much bigger than that. Latest science and technology allows things that were unthinkable before. Will they be ethical and set some limits? Will they commercialize gene engineering, cloning, and full customization of human beings? My opinion: knock yourself out.
Life is a joke. Enjoy the show! * grabs popcorn *
It seems like a no brainer to me, I find these people who seem to look upon conditions such as Downs as somehow enhancing the greater human experience as naive and patronizing
amen
Graham King If a pregancy scanning came back positve for bone cancer, should the parents still give birth to it even though the chances of survival past birth are lower than 20%? Even though it may psychologically destroy the couple's mind as they try to care and pay for the bills thay come along with the treatment? Or would it be more reasonable to terminate the pregnancy and find hope in the future? I'm not saying people with illness are not people. I'm saying that illnesses are not people. After a certain point, it becomes hopeless to treat and devours what it can from everyone involved. There is no need for emotional pain and physical pain, don't romanticize illnesses and diseases. They don't add to human character, they destroy it.
People argue to keep the life but dont want to take care of it.
sounds like you are one of those people ...
@@sparkleclown you are correct. It is an easy, lazy argument. These are the weak arguments made by people who are unwilling to address the actual issue, which is "is this a life."
Except they do, but you ignore it because it doesn't fit your narrative. There are literally pro-life protesters who stand outside abortion clinics with signs that say: "I WILL ADOPT YOUR BABY". And there are pro-life pregnancy centers who help both mother and child before and after birth. So don't even try that nonsense.
@ippos_khloros Wow THIS is an incredibly stupid comparison..
@ippos_khloros How are you pro choice when you think that killing newborns is the same as having early abortions?
Why are they framing the eradication of a genetic disorder as a bad thing?
Jarron Williams but downs isn’t a hereditary condition. It’s a condition that just pops up occasionally. It can never be eradicated.
@@Sarah-ft8jr Its not hereditary but is more common with inbreeding which Iceland is known for due to its low population count. Something like this can eradicate Down Syndrome in Iceland since it is more common due to the amount of inbreeding that happens in Iceland unintentionally.
it will not stop there...
It won’t eradicate it. It’s just aborting anyone unlucky enough to develop it
@@3DL1 Good we dont need anything defects in our species
My problem is that they only show the happy DS kids. I feel like a lot of people don't really know what DS could mean. Your child could be really ill and die young. It could need supervision 24/7. These people get Alzheimer kinda early.
I respect the families for beeing strong but I think a lot of people are romanticizing DS without knowing a lot.
DeluxXe Trash
Yup.
Yes, the vast majority never learn to read or write and can't work or live independently.
You're absolutely right. I had a boy with down syndrom in my Neighborhood. When he was 4 years old he was very cute but then he gets older and startet to abuse his little brother and hits his parents when they didn't buy him sweets. You had to be careful 24/7 and they had to give him away. Down Syndrom can be a very serious illness
Give him away?! Who would want to adopt/foster a DS child? Was he put into a children's home or young offenders' institute?
What happens when they become teenagers and want sex?!
Exactly! The burden of caring for a small child with Down syndrome isn't much different than the burden of caring for a neurotypical small child. Well, assuming the Down syndrome child in question doesn't need heart surgery, develop leukemia, or any of the many other health problems that are more likely to occur with Trisomy 21. It's after the teen years that things can get hairy.
No one should be FORCED to have an abortion, just as no one should be FORCED to carry a downs baby if they do not want to. So long as abortion is legal, it can be performed for ANY reason.
+Uncle Steve if a mother hates her own race so much, there is going to be issues if she puts into existance a child she never wanted
Not in Ohio, they just made it illegal to have an abortion for the express purpose of terminating because the fetus has Down's syndrome. It's the beginning of The Handmaids Tale.
Uncle Steve if the baby is biracial, then either the mother chose to have sex with someone of another race (in which case, WHY would she hate other races?) or she was raped, which is an ENTIRELY separate issue.
Your message is mixed. Take away abortion then you are FORCING people to carry a downs baby. So where does your opinion lay, because it weighs towards FORCING women to carry and either have the children or give away the children.
A. Howell What if the baby was mixed race and the mother didn’t want the baby just for being mixed race?
My grandparents had their 7th and last child when my grandfather was 49 and my grandmother was 44. my uncle was born with Down's syndrome. my Grandfather became disabled when he was 89 and my grandmother became disabled when she was 86. By then they could no longer care for my uncle. While he was able to take care of certain basic things like dressing, bathing, eating etc he would find things like doing laundry, cooking and shopping challenging. he had absolutely no comprehension of money. he only knew that he would pay for something with paper money and he would get change back which he thought was a pretty good deal because he valued the change more than the paper money, especially the pennies. if he paid for a gallon of milk with a hundred dollar bill and you gave him two rolls of shiny new pennies as his change he would be overjoyed and consider it the best day that month and would thank you vigorously. if he paid for the jug of milk with a five dollar bill and the clerk gave him a stack of hundred dollar bills as his change he would become irate and accuse you of cheating him. The actual math was completely lost on him. Since he thought the entire purpose of doing laundry was to make the clothes smell good he would put anything that smelled good into the washer instead of soup which he considered unpleasant smelling. he once put an entire bottle of his mother's favorite expensive French perfume into the washing machine. on another occasion he dumped an entire jar of grape jelly into the washer so his clothes would smell like grapes jelly. he did not adapt well to change. When my grandparents were put into an assisted living facility he demanded that he be permitted to continue to live in the same house he'd lived in for nearly 45 years. he became violent when they tried to physically move him to a group home. he had never exhibited violent behavior before in four and a half decades. The neighbor's called the police and my uncle was put into handcuffs. he did not take well to that so they pepper sprayed him and beat him with their sticks. he became suicidal in jail and the judge ignored his pleas to be returned to the only home he knew and ordered him into a mental hospital until he was "cured." it took three years for him to transition to a group home. he could not work because he didn't understand instructions well and only his mother or father could ever tell him what to do. he refused instructions from any other source. he did not like being poked and prodded in his mouth so dental care was out of the question. As a result his teeth were all rotten by 40. Since group homes in his state were not free, 100% of my grandparent's savings went to pay for that. The assisted living facility they lived in used up most of their life savings. When they passed away there was only two years worth left for my uncle. After two years they sent him to a state facility which is basically prison for people who are unable to care for themselves. They confiscated all his possessions and auctioned them off. inmates in the state facility are not permitted possessions. he could not even own his own clothes. We could not give him gifts because the facility would take them and sell them at the quarterly auctions as per state law. he was accustomed to a very specific diet and simply would not eat unless served that diet. it was difficult enough at the group home but in the state facility they gave him what everyone else ate and anyone who did not eat would be disciplined and that included illegal corporal punishment. my uncle died in that facility at the age of 58. nobody in the family was permitted to obtain a copy of his death certificate. The reason given was that he was a ward of the state and as such deemed that it would be a violation of his privacy if his medical records were released to hi family which the state considers as having no rights in that regard. They also cremated his body and disposed of it before informing anyone in the family that my uncle died. my uncle had numerous health and behavioral problems throughout his life. i cannot say his life was typical of someone with Down's syndrome. i am not an expert. i can only offer this one example of the life of someone with this condition. i cannot say that it would have been better or worse had my grandparents the option of abortion. i can say that despite all of the above, most of the time he was a happy-go-lucky individual who was always happy to see you, made new friends easily and would hug the entire population of the world if given the chance and i don't think he had a malicious bone in his body.
Why didn't your family take him in??? That was awful what he had to go through and you guys just stood by and allowed all that to happen???
Kimmy Khaira their family probably didn’t have the money/ resources to take care of him and become his primary caretakers.
@@kristasmith7169 but it's so devastating! If that was my family I would do whatever it takes to keep him safe with me. People give up too quickly on their own blood it's so sad.
@@heartz500 unless you have actually done it, you honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not trying to be unkind here but people have alot of ideas that don't work out when you're faced with the kinds of circumstances people are talking about here.
Real story though, annoys me when people try to imply that having someone who can't look after their self's being easy and no problem.
This is one of those double edged swords that no one will agree 100% on. In such cases we should file it under. "What may be right for you, may not be what is right for me."
it's funny how they say ''we'' during the entire doc.there's no ''we'' ,there's only the parents who decide,they will be the ones raising the child.If they want the screening who are you to deny them?is this doctor and that lady who's against the screening going to raise the child with a disability?no.
If love is subjective...I.E. I will raise my child only if he's according to how I see fit, then its not love, but its possession. Every human life is precious and sacred.
Christopher Debattista
Love is subjective, by it's very nature
Love is not subjective. You cannot subjectively express compassion and empathy whilst agreeing with abortion. Its like going to take a shower before a mud-fight.
Christopher Debattista
Of course love is subjective.
The meaning of subjective: based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.
I love my nephew but obviously I love him differently to the way my sister loves him, does it mean I love him any less? No and obviously she can't tell me that I don't love him.
If you decide to spank your child as a form of discipline do I then have the right to accuse you of not loving them?
Love is very much subjective. My best friend had an abortion (for medical reasons I might add) and she says she felt a sort of love towards the fetus but nowhere as much as she did toward her second pregnancy
That's not subjectivism but relativism. You said you do not love him an less, therefore its not subjective. Maybe the way we express love towards different people is different (Communication wise). But bottom line, you love them equally and probably more than your life. However, I cannot stand it when people say fetus instead of baby conveniently. Nobody ever sad I'm having a fetus. Whilst I emphatise towards your friend and I really do hope she's ok, she will still carry a mark in her soul, even though she might not admit it or talk about it, even though she made an abortion, big-pharma and the abortion industry is huge and they will do whatever it takes to put in a sales pitch, even by using medical terms. You should search Dr Anthony Levatino who did countless of abortions and by no means any abortion can be compassionately justified. Life is precious and sacred from beginning to end.
A society where fewer children have to suffer with debilitating conditions. This is a dystopia? Umm...sign me up!
Down's Syndrome will always exist. You can't eradicate it from society unless you abort the babies with DS.
Different, in most ways there disadvantaged and they rarely become independent. Iv'e worked with people with difficulties such as Down's syndrome and i see the amount of help and enablement they need all there lives to be able to live a normal ish lives. If also seen down's syndrome parents enabled too then have down syndrome kids that then need more help that there parents are unable to provide them because of there own conditions. Controversial af but where does it end?
Tiger Feather, tell that to the downs living here in my town
there are some who cannot walk are convined to wheelchairs, some scream the whole day every minute
some cant speak, some are blind and deaf, we have em in all kind of "shapes and sizes" so to speak
Its certainly no dystopia to me! the sooner this genetic blight is wiped out the better for all of humanity, people who suffer from this condition will never have the quality of life of "normal" people.
your comment makes me believe you do not have a sibling who has downs, i do
she is now in a nursing home, cannot talk, wears diapers all the time
her teeth are rotten almost gone from the antibiotics she always has to take cause she is always sick
she is partly deaf, she is violent, she doesnt know family bonds
when she was born she had to have open heart surgery,
her tongue is to large so its always sticking out
mind you, i dont want her dead or anything, just wish sometimes she was never born
would have made alot of things way more easier
she has a life sentence inside that body that cant do anything, she cant walk the streets cant go to school she doesnt understand anything..... wheres the quality of live here ?
sorry, but even an animal is smarter then her
ow yeh... she is 27 years old
Genetic testing and making the decision not to go with a "defective" embryo is one of the big things that makes IVF so attractive to perspective parents. I can't blame people for not feeling that they can take on a special needs child, and I say that as a disabled person. Same people who gripe about other people's decision not to proceed with carrying a disabled child are the same ones who will rant later about the taxes it takes to care for that disabled person. I've been through and watched it with others when a parent or parents simply aren't willing to do what needs to be done to really care for someone who is physically (like me) or mentally disabled. It's not pretty
I agree. God bless you
I agree 100% the best ones are pro life in America how can you be pro-life and yet rally for gun ownership with less legislation despite all the school shootings they only seem to care about the birth then moan about the increased tax used for schooling of those kids and look at school shootings and do nothing but support easier unregulated gun ownership under the guise it’s my freedom and part of the Constitution and moan when care homes are full of children
@@theneonfox3414 what gun legislation will do to someone that goes to a school shooting with an illegally obtained weapon? Or someone that just plants an explosive on the school or ram a truck again the school entrance while students are leaving?
Can you tell me how many people in Nice, France were saved by gun control?
@@marcosamell96 how much was saved by a gun in the 9/11 attacks
Yup special needs mom here
There is nothing wrong with being honest to yourself and accepting that you would do a poor job as a pernt to someone with a disability, for whichever reason.
How so? Saying there isn’t anything wrong is an opinions
It’s not just that it’s caring about your child enough so that it won’t be born like this
Then don’t become a parent.
If you think you wouldn't make a good parent, then don't become a parent in the first place. That decision is made in the bedroom. And if you have already conceived someone and found out they have a disability, give them up for adoption and let someone who is both willing and able to raise them adopt them into their family. There are thousands of people who want to have children but can't, and who would be more than happy to love and care for a special needs child.
And lest you bring up the flaws of the foster system, or bad childhoods, or unwanted children, let me also say this: you don't know that child's future, so don't take it upon yourself to erase it.
@@lanadoesathing There´s a difference between being a parent to a healthy child and being one to a child with disabilities. Beside, remember that Iceland has a population of 300000 people, so ther probably aren´t that many options for a child to be adopted there.
I really hate this extremist view of abortion. People will vilify and belittle you so it's easy for them to berate you. No one is genuinely happy to have a abortion, no one is evilly laughing "MORE DEAD BABIES, I LOVE IT". it's a personal and extremely difficult choice for parents so their child doesn't have to suffer, regardless of whatever issue it is.
i'm personally against abortion, but it's the couple's choice. Safe and professional procedures should be available for those who choose.
Some people aren't mentally or financially ready to take care of a child with a condition.
Here the U.S Plan Parenthood helps carriers get abortions without making them feel horrible about it. Here in some states there's only one abortion clinic to lower abortiin rates not caring about the situation.
Yeah I agree. These people need to stop humanising a fetus. It's not alive yet it's practically not even human, just an amalgamation of random tissues and proto-organs. And frankly what they are doing is good, why should children with disabilities be brought into the world? Not only are you causing suffering to the child, but potentially to the parents. And it's society that bears the burden of financially supporting said child. So unless you are willing to pay for your disabled child's day care etc for the rest of their life. Governments should do tests on all fetuses to determine if they will have any significant disability and advise parents on the options available.
Kavas, wise answer. Personally, I would very much hope that my mother HAD aborted me, had she NOT really wanted me. That may sound harsh, but I think the sad effect of other's opposition to a woman's personal decision in this matter constitute a sort of child abuse at its resulting end. Studies have shown a strong support for the idea that legal prohibition of abortion is a prediction factor for juvenile crime. In other words, not whole-heartedy desired children have a much higher probability of ending up in trouble. No child deserves that.
Kavas I’m only for abuse or extreme diseases for now.
There is nothing wrong with this. There are too many parents in the USA who have handicapped children and will sometimes just neglect the child. Not to mention.. saving the person from a life of agony.
Can't Beat The BAY! People with down syndrome often times don't mind it and are happy.
Vihan Subramaniam what about the life's of the perents knowing that thay most likely will need help there hole life
Raising a kid with down syndrome is way more difficult than rasing an average child
just an irish anacp anarcho-capitalist right people want their kids to grow up to be something big and move on
Something tells me you don't know what Capitalism is, as such has nothing pertinent to this subject. Of course people can be happy, disregarding the ailment, but prevention of said flaw should be vital in civil pregnancy.
Will never forget a woman who had something like a fish disease as it fused her legs into a fin: she found out that her parents had the option to terminate the pregnancy and at one point she screamed out "WHY DID YOU ALLOW ME TO COME TO THE WORLD AND DEAL WITH THIS!!!! YOU BROUGHT ME HERE BECAUSE YOU WERE SELFISH!!!!" Then she died somewhere in her late teens were she wasn't expected to live long.
These were - HER WORDS!!!!!!!!!!!
Probably Harlequin Icthiosis. It's a horrendous conditon. The victims look like severe burns survivors. I don't think it shows up on ultrasound, as it is a skin problem. They probably tested specifically for it during the pregnancy and the mother then refused to terminate.
Or it might have been that little girl that was born looking like a 'mermaid'. Or someone like her. She died young. I believe there's a youtube about her.
I don’t understand this mindset. If someone is unhappy with their life and feels that their suffering is so significant that they cannot keep living and would prefer to not exist, then there is a very easy fix for that.
Dude, that’s a horrible trip to lay on your parents. Obviously she was a teenager and teenagers often say horrible things to their parents. They made a decision and they were wrong…so be it, dude. Part of living in a supposedly free society is having the ability to make such decisions and live with the consequences. We can and *should* chalk those words up to an adolescent brain that isn’t fully formed…chances are, if she’d lived longer, she would’ve deeply regretted those words and the horrible impact they almost certainly had.
@@manifestgtr Nah
How is this a dilemma???
Life or ending life. That's not a dilemma for you?
By your logic, people with down syndrome don't have the right to life.
@@TheKnoxvicious uh they don't. Their literal abominations.
As a person born with a disability I would have preferred never to have been born, but that doesn't mean that I am not grateful to have met the wonderful people in my life.
As a person without a disability, I would have preferred never to have been born. We all suffer, some more than others, but since all suffering could have been prevented, that es not a good argument.
ViolentFEAR If suffering is to be prevented, then we should just no longer continue as a species.
I have congenital and acquired disabilities and have no preference as to whether I was born or not. Even though my conception was an accident, I don't think it's mere coincidence that my existence led to me figuring out my disabilities are inherited, which led to both my and my family's diagnosis. I sort of saved our lives.
If you truly wish you had never been born, I strongly recommend you try to get professional help as soon as possible. Saying that you wish you had not been born is not something that should be said lightly. I hope you are exaggerating, but if you are not, please get help immediately.
What a brave thing to say. My neighbor has a beautiful boy with Down's Syndrome. I think he is amazing. She does too. But she worries who will care for him after they are gone. So I am scared now for him and it changes the thinking of this kind of thing.
Depression is more common than we think, I think. Life is tough for many. Death sounds restful, ahh no more anxiety, its not that uncommon a thought, with no intention to suicide. No disablity here, though I was just diagnosed with an illness that leaves me fatigued all the time so I cant do much anymore. Had hope in the meds but theyve had no effect. The therapist I was assigned was not very good lol. Still its important to be thankful, indeed phoeniximperator, makes a huge difference to notice little blessings (for want of a better word), crazy coincidences, and find meaning if you can wherever you can. Hugs to you and everyone else who wants one.
I think that many of the people who are against this are only look at the cute kids. What about the children that will need somebody to take care of them for the rest of their life.
Shia Adams
No it just seems cruel to be genetically destroyed, it's quite literally playing out the eugenics play book. What's the difference between killing and sterilizing disabled and mentally disabled people and aborting them.
Also someone who has a mentally disabled brother, I would never ever change anything, even if it did cause some pain in the very beginning.
RѦУϺØЙĐ well yes ofcourse you don't want to change anything, since he was born and he is in your family. But I am quite sure you and your family wished for a healthy baby. U didn't wish for that child to have disability? Right. That is what downsyndrome is. It's not a healthy baby. I hope ur brother has a good life, and it is your choise. But u see what I am saying? Stop lying to yourself. U all wished he was born healthy. But I am sure he has a nice life
I dont think theres anything wrong with it, because a fetus is a fetus, but Im not always sure about weather or not the argument behind it is too one sided and subjective
They look at the "cute kids", but never consider what happens as adults. Many children are left near State institutions.
I've cared for developmentally disabled adults. While a number of them had families who loved them, but could not give them 24x7 care and supervision, there were others who had been abandoned when they were about 10 or 15 years old, near (some) State facility, and all they knew that his name was "Tommy". His Dad drove a red truck. His Mom was pretty. They lived in a white house with flowers in front. There was no way to find out who these kids were! They became wards of the State.
In some states, those ward of the State kids were often horribly abused by some of their under-trained, under-paid so-called caretakers.
If you decide to complete a pregnancy and give birth to a child who will be born with a disability, you have some responsibility for that child - and to protect that child, provide for that child for a lifetime. I doubt most of the parents who so abandoned their "no longer cute" children really thought about what a big responsibility they were taking on. Not to mention that caring for these people is EXPENSIVE.
Shia Adams the children with down syndrome are cute tbh.
It sounds more like a solution than a dilemma.
There is a spectrum of the disabilities of a DS kid. A few are high/functioning but another sizeable portion are quite low functioning. Most have IQ’s around 50 which is about equal to an 8-9 year old level. Practically all DS adults need supportive housing and work in a sheltered workshop environment. As children the require special educational services and often have accompanying serious health issues like heart defects and leukemia. They usually have a shorter life span of around 50-60. So, raising a DS child from birth to adulthood requires that society contributes to their care.So I believe those who feel uncomfortable taking on this life-Long burden should have the right to terminate without being accused of selfishness.
@@quel2846 Degenerate trash ... You must enjoy seeing these people suffer and struggle for life ...
@@quel2846 You are sick; a true degenerate. God have mercy on you; let him show you the light ...
I absolutely agree, also knowingly bringing them into the world to suffer many health complications, go through surgeries and struggle with day to day life is another factor to throw into this ethical dilemma. There is no only one rightous choice here. Everyone needs to be able to choose for themselves and not be judged for whatever that decision may be.
Funny you should characterize them as a 'burden'. Many as my sister, have been and continue to be a life long joy to all who know Judy. Those who look at these beautiful people as a burden are disabled in their ability to learn compassion, respect and are probably hooked on instagram or snapchat or some other vacuous narcissistic behaviour. Sorry.
@@thor9563 they are a burden. All kids are a burden.
sounds like the lack of a dilemma
Jeff Ziemkiewicz Exactly. If this bothers them, they should head over to China where eugenics is practiced with genetic testing and hope for future designer babies among some scientists, or parts of India where many healthy baby girls are aborted. Those are due to societal issues, this is not.
Nihilina Everything involving humans is a societal issue. This and other forms of eugenics cannot be stopped. One can only hope that western society is able to transced useless morals, which are holding us back, so we won't be the ones going extinct.
+Vinay Seth Rowan Atkinson does not have DS...
Eugenics in these cases is more than justified.
@Heinz Kunz Dysgenics indeed is the worst threat to humanity today. Eugenics has been depised for decades - in the end, however, it's our future as it is our only chance to survive.
@gpff0103 It's called future
Obviously this is what most parents would choose to do. people who have mental disabilities are still people but let's not romanticize these conditions. To deliberately bring someone into the world with such conditions would be truly immoral and cruel.
Nicolas Morales Have you ever Met someone with Down Syndrome? Please do someone research before you say things like that!
Here is a good start: th-cam.com/video/AAPmGW-GDHA/w-d-xo.html
Dire Dare have you seen DS as a whole or the few that do well and get in videos like this. That isn’t the normal outcome for DS they are showing a very small percent.
Show one person who romanticize Downs Syndrome. idiot!
I've known several including one mom who said her child's Down Syndrome was a blessing because she herself had learned so much. The child learning? Not so much. She went on and on about what a blessing her child's deformity was for her - but not one word about what it was like for her child. She was a coworker of mine. I"ve known others, too.
When I was in the womb they told my parents I'd have down syndrome and I turned out to be a normal person
Huh how did that happened?
@UFO PILOT sometimes genetic testing has fake positives and gives different results it’s not always accurate
Lol maybe you do
Same for me
How long ago was that? With things like 4-d imaging now, I’d imagine doctors have more certainty about these things. Even back in the 90’s, we didn’t have as much technology as we have now.
Honestly, I don't even know how I feel about it. I think unless you are in the ultrasound receiving this information, you can't say what/if absolutely. Sad. I am very grateful I wasn't faced with this. I feel bad for moms, dads, families trying to tread this path.
I don’t have the mental nor the physical strength that it takes to raise ultra-special needs children (ones with downs, cerebral palsy, prader willi, etc). God bless the parents that choose to carry their pregnancies full-term but I don’t think we should demonize the people who decide the opposite.
Ali Syn I have a friend who has a downs child..the parents devote so much time for her they neglect their other two children
Hence why aborting children with defects is a good thing
I still think it's better to allow special-needs children the chance to overcome the challenges posed by their medical conditions.
hananokuni2580 you cant overcome an extra chromosome
One can overcome the challenges posed by having the extra chromosome, not the chromosome itself.
I don't see a problem with this .
There isn't one. People are way too invested in what happens in other people's wombs.
Yup. We already pick and choose which babies come into this world by picking which sexual partners we choose to have.
Really? These babies would grow up to be happy adults. Downs is no reason for abortion.
Chandler Redmond yea most of the time the parents or siblings ( and the government ) will have to support them for the rest of their lives .
Chandler Redmond I have absolutely no problem with people with down syndrome . But I'm looking at it from a different point of view . Look at it from the couples point of view . No couple wants to find out their child will be born permanently disabled ..
"Keep the child or terminate the fetus" that's what's called emotional distancing
For real, if it is only a child if you say it is, that is an opinion, but this matter isn't about opinion. It either is or isn't. The facts that prove it is a unique human life have stacked sky high.
@@zuffin1864 They probably mean it would become a child at one point if kept.
SOCIAL DISTANCING LOL
350,000 people isolated on an island. With such a lack of genetic diversity, they are bound to have some problems. Better to deal with it like this than the cruel hand of nature.
Is there something wrong with ensuring a person's life will be without ailment before birth?
Eliminating the birthing of downs syndrome or other illness is "controversial".
DEATH TO DEMOCRACY THRU ANY MEANS NECESSARY.
No there isn't.
By killing them? Yes.
Killing who? the nobody that never was?
Then whose life did you make better?
My mother had to have a medical abortion due to her health being put in danger. My parents still feel like they made the right choice but it was a difficult decision. If she kept the baby she had a high likely hood of death. She would have left my brother and me without a mother so she chose to terminate the pregnancy but I know even to this day it hurts her. God bless anyone who has to make difficult decisions like that and I hope I am never put in that position as I do not know what I would do.
Good thing it wasn't you.
Likely wouldn't have happened. Scare tactics plus innate human desire to save oneself at cost of others life.
living large on a small budget i'm glad your mum is okay. I can't imagine how hard that must've been for her.
mary shaffer let's see your medical degree.
living large on a small budget You seem like such a beautiful person. Just wanted to tell you that.
Although difficult and ethically questionable, it seems very responsible and pragmatic to make those tough sacrifices.
If anything, this just shows how many people who abort their babies really put a lot of thought into their decision, as they should. It's not like they're indifferent to their unborn children, they just don't want them to live a life of suffering.
most of them don't want to be bothered by a child that isn't perfect.
The fact is that all human lives have the same inherent value no matter what birth defects they have.
You cannot place one life above another based solely on whether they are physically different. Could you say that the lives of you and those around you are more valuable than anyone else's?
Do you really believe that those of whom who are handicapped in any way don't deserve their life based on a inconvenience they have no control over? Truly saddening to see the greed of people.
If one of my children some day would be born with Down Syndrome I would love and give attention to them the same as I would with my other children.
I would give them all the help they need as I would with my other children if need be AND MOST IMPORTANTLY I WOULD NOT ABORT THEM AND I WOULD GIVE THEM THE SAME CHANCE AT LIFE AS ALL OTHERS BEFORE THEM. Have a nice day.
They are showing later abortions. With the new NIPT test, it should be possible to discover if the embryo has Down's Syndrome, before it even reaches the foetus stage. A termination at 8 weeks is a lot less disturbing than at, for example, 18 weeks. It can also be carried out via pills, instead of surgery.
Emma Jones NIPT tests are not 100%, or even the 99% accurate as they claim, and can be administered at 10 weeks + days, not -8 weeks. I get that people with DS aren't worthy of life for people like you, but what about the "normal" babies who will lose their lives in the sweep of false positives if what you describes happens? Consequently, the usual next step is not immediate abortion the next day, it is CVS or amnio testing, which carry a risk of miscarriage and can take weeks to get an appt for in a govt healthcare system. We're talking 12 weeks +, which is not early enough to use a chemical abortion, which has it's own risks.
I don't think it's about 'not worthy of life' I think it's rather 'too worthy to be seen suffering'. Nobody is thinking 'my child is trash' people are thinking 'I want this baby so much, but who am I to choose a life of suffering for this person?' It's such a difficult topic, but please, it is very hurtful for all of us - those for and those against - to imagine the world the way you write it. It's just not true. We're all (for & against) just trying to do the best thing we can, out of love, to reduce suffering. I'm taking the time to say this to you because you seem very passionate and that is good, and it will help you to see the reasons why people make these decisions. If we look at this as the problem 'How can we reduce suffering?' then we can all work together - some can provide help for disabled children and their parents, to make their lives full of chances to find what they need in life, for example. I truly believe that if we all use this tremendous 'for & against' energy, we could really change the thing we are all so heartbroken by - the suffering of others. x
Mazel Tov, Amy Jones
Amy Jones Oh please. It has nothing to do with considering what’s best for the child, it’s about what’s more convenient for the mother. You don’t get to decide if their so called “suffering” is worth living through or not. That’s not your decision because it’s not YOU, it’s another person. Stop playing God.
shay jefferson great comparison you got there genius..
YOU don’t want me terminate a pregnancy with severe development issue?
YOU adopt and raise it!
You can have the ideology of your choice regarding this. Because it’s everyone’s right. But I know my physical, mental and financial limit, can I make the choice myself?!
Fine. If I grew up about ten years, and was given permission to adopt, I’d take your child. No child deserves to never have a life, regardless of any condition affecting them. I understand that money and time is an issue, but there are so many organization out there to give hope and support and funds to those who are moral enough to keep their child instead of ripping it out.
I Think a mum would be more likely to have a disabled child if they thought they would get help and a decent life, maybe society should improve its attitude and help kids with disabilities more.
Okay. It's hard, but any childbearing and rearing is.
i do hereby give thee the NOW AWARD,
now.org
but u can't get a NOB AWARD, the national organization of babies ;)
you're a child and can't comprehend what it takes to raise a child with disabilities
It is a good thing babys can be born healty.
no
@Dr. Clown
Why not lmao
@@ghristophermyers666 NO? wtf is wrong with wanting a child to have a good quality of life?
@@fawkumean378 a difference in chromosomes does not predict a bad quality of life
People need to get that lie out of their heads once and for all
@@mrsgolden6526 uh.....i never said anything about the pros/cons or quality of life relating to the average person with down syndrome but ok?
Sorry, but your attempts to show two sides to this falls flat for several reasons:
- You only show young down's, who's parents love them. That is not so hard, bc the initial development is not so different. The problems arise in puberty mostly and as adults. Where is the love then hmm?
- The defence of the president of the Down society there (and others) comparing it is totally wrong. She is comparing a causal relation, with 100% certainty as for downs, with an uncausal relation, which may never occur. Those are 2 different things. Not comparable.
- Opposition often seeks refuge in unscientific rationales, even religion. You cannot act as if you are propositioning scientific arguments AND have religious beliefs as a basis for these. Belief is not science.
- It is imo not wise and a burden on society (eventually) if you have the knowledge and persue to do this anyway. There is a neat line here as to which life should be preserved and which not. If it wouldnt survive on its own, its probably best to terminate.
But i do grant of course that this will inevitable turn out to be a slippery slope, ethically.
You can't really make a 'scientific' case for either position because ethics are entirely subjective. In theory, eugenics is great for the betterment of humanity right?
Dilemma? It's an achievement. I have a downs syndrome individual in my family and, believe me, life is not at all easy for the parents or siblings. They love their child, as do I, but the sacrifices they have to make are massive, far reaching and last a short lifetime.
The condition is a genetic defect which Iceland has managed to eradicate - this is progress. This is the future. Well done.
Do you think it would be okay if we euthanize disabled people who have already been born if their families feel unable or unwilling to care for them? How severly disabled does someone have to be to be considered for termination? Is autism acceptable in this perfect society? I would say that many physical disabilities and malformations are just as difficult to deal with and cause just as much pain to persons and families as mental retardation. What about people with deppression, schizophrenia, and bipolar? These people often live unhappy lives and cause great pain to their families. What about children who are simply unwanted, who would probably not live a very happy life and be a drain on society anyway? Why not save them pain and us trouble? Wouldn't cities be better off without the homeless, and we know that they live unhappy lives, right? Where should the lines be? Who decides who ought to live and die for the greater good?
Iceland has not eradicated down's syndrome. It keeps occuring in their population. They are just aborting babies. When women stop conceiving downs babies, then downs will be eradicated.
whaw, what a stupid text......better go to read your bible or something rather than writing stupidities online
Tia Thompson That’s a fair comment, though I’m still firmly of the opinion that it’s the right thing to do. Aborting at such an early stage remains a difficult decision, but is ultimately a mercy for all parties involved, including wider society.
Perhaps ‘manage’ or ‘control’ are better words than ‘eradicate’.
Stijn Slim No thanks,. My morality comes from thoughtful consideration and observing the modern world objectively. You can keep your 3000 year old book.
Not much of a dilemma there if 100% of positive tested fetus are terminated. Isn't every abortion about "pick and choose". A life with Down Syndrome or any other condition requires a lot of care and a lifetime of perseverance. A lifetime of struggle. Nobody should judge parents if they decide to terminate. The choice is hard, but so is living your whole life with down syndrome.
+Ashish Jena So you feel entitled to know that "living your whole life with down syndrome" is "hard"? Have you interviewed scores of down syndrome people about their life experience enabling you to propose such a claim? And do you actually believe that exterminating some unwanted traits will automatically produce a lifetime without struggle? Last thing I heard is that you can NOT control life itself..
People with downs suffer from many conditions other than the mental retardation which is the hallmark of the condition, like heart problems and digestive issues as well, they are never going to live a normal life
e2sguy Nice idiotic strawman.
Couple more people who should have been conceived in Iceland here I see...
Ashish Jena 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
“They just see Down syndrome, they don’t see me” hit me hard to the wall… 😔
Same.
Let’s make this clear bc I have seen a lot of nasty comments regarding Down Syndrome:
-DS is like pretty much everything a spectrum and therefore every case is different! Some have really heavy speech impediments others don’t, some suffer from organ damage others don’t etc..
-People with DS can lead completely normal lives. They might need a little more help than people without DS, but like anyone else they have their own interests, dislikes, they fall in love, they have friends, they can work etc..
-They aren’t any more or less ‘complicated’ than people without DS are. Everyone has their flaws, problems or baggage. Sure you might need more time when caring for a disabled child, but it’s totally worth it.
- People with DS are NOT pitiful people! Some studies actually show that they are generally happier. Pitying disabeled people is what reinforces false stigmas and makes them and society think there is something wrong with them, when they just have one chromosome too much.
-Last but not least: DS is not all they are. They have a character before they have a disability!
Also: Your life isn’t over when you have a disabled child! They go to school,they have hobbies, some even work. In most cases they don’t even live at home forever- there are great assisted living places/ homes nowadays.
character before disability - I like that!
Noa Torsello - I agree with all this once the child gets to this world. But before the fetus can feel pain, it’s up to the mother if she wants to commit.
Noa Torsello as somebody who cares for disabled people including many with down syndrome I can tell you there's nothing normal about their lives.
Noa Torsello
Thank you! Also downs doesn’t make the child be in pain, it is not physical it’s more mental. I work with special Ed kids at my school, and I would proudly take care of a downs child. I plan on adopting when I am older. A good documentary to watch is Monica and David.
It all comes down to personal choice. They people that choose to have babies that have Downs need to be fully prepared to possibly care for that child intently for many, many years. No everyone is prepared or wants to live life that way. But for those who do want that, it’s their choose to keep the baby.
It’s a complicated issue, abortion always is.
AdLibby, no one wants to have their baby born with any desease or disability. No one is fully prepared for such a life changing. To say the opposite is to assume that those who decide for the life of the baby do it because it is easier for them. No, they do it because they believe it is wrong to take away a life, even thou they will have to face a heavy burden.
Here is where your argument fail: you idealize life and suggests that people can, just to accomplise their life expectations, do anything. I'm sorry, reality is more complicated. Someone's adult son may suffer an accident and stay under care for the rest of his life. A tragedy that no one has chosen. And again this is the underlying question: what is more important, a human life or my idealized expectations?
Lílian N Souza what?
Lílian N Souza you are missing the very point a child is not yours and they don't exist to fulfil your expectations. But what they can be is in pain, afraid, bullied, unhappy, depressed suicidal, no one wants that for their child. Their expectations for their child is that they are well and happy, now that's more important than life for life's sake. It's just plain selfish to want life for life's sake when it could be that that life is intolerable and if I can do anything to try and ensure that I don't impose that on anyone I will do it. Including choosing not to continue with a pregnancy when to do so has a chance of making any baby continue on to live an unhappy unfulfilled life. I don't see it as fulfilling my expectations to have a perfect baby but rather making the difficult choice to choose what is likely to be the best for any child.
I totally agree with you AdLibby. It's all up to one's choice. It should never be easy, and like whether or not someone wants to have a child in the first place, should be something thought through. And it isn't easy. But if a parent feels like they don't want that life for their child or they aren't ready, that's their thing. It's their human right. Still, people should be educated about conditions like down syndrome, what it means, and such. Because I'm sure people with downs who have life, and a GOOD life, are glad to be alive. Still, it all comes down to the woman's choice. That's just it.
Ever taken care of one? I don't mean the high-functioning, verbal, toilet-trained individuals...I mean the other end of the spectrum. They can become violent and extremely difficult to manage. Unless or until you are adequately informed, you should keep your opinions to yourself.
Of course the woman has the right to make this decision and it doesn't mean the woman doesn't have compassion and love for that child.
No the point is that you recognise withing yourself you wont love the child enough.. So you terminate... It`s an incredible confrontation i think they are strong people for that.
It clearly they don’t to terminate a pregnancy because of that. It’s not the child’s fault
Lol shut up you idiot. Women aren't incubators. They don't have to have a baby if they don't want to. They don't owe "compassion" to the "child"
Kary Ordonez as well it's not the parents and it they do not want to do it... YOU cannot make them and have no right too...
If she murders her baby because it’s not her idea of perfect, she has NO LOVE for that child.
In Irish, the phrase for Downs' is "Daoine le Dia" ... "people with God".
Then there shouldn't be a problem to send them right back to him.
SoramimiKeiki I don’t know what to say
Ha!
Ha
@@SoramimiKeiki 😂😂😂😂
Can I just say their church building looks very nice and interesting?
daddyleon Yes, you can.
@@eddenoy321 haha thank you :)
@@daddyleon Always here to help !
No you can’t
Then you should see their Aesir temple.
Let the family make a decision that's best for that family
beep boop so u would adopt the children the parents cant support?
Autumnal Vernal, How is it in any way relevant what would I do under that hypothetical scenario without a context, that's just a demagogic retoric and you should be ashamed of using that cheap tactic to feel better about your sick oppinion, but I'll tell you this, if someone I love and care happens to be in the situation of being unable to support their child I would definitely help them without hesitation, but in the end it's their responsability to take care of a child they conceived, I firmly belief that in order to have an stable society people should be able to assume that, however if It would really be impossible for them to handdle that situation and if they would trust me enough to do it, I would take care of said child, and
if it happens that my partner is pregnant with a DS child I wouldn't even consider abortion, I'm not a hypocrite like most of the people you might be used to talk with, those that speak of free borders and wouldn't even take a refugee into their house, but like I said what I would personaly do is completly irrelevant, It's clear that there are better options for any unwanted child and I know there are thousands of couples with better conditions than myself that would gladly adopt these kids even in those conditions.
People having abortions because they can't support their children is a lie, the vast mayority of people that commits this acts come from wealthy families, they are not rape victims or poor people, I know personaly high middle class girls and couples that under their twenties had multiple abortions, they didn't do it for the child's sake but because of their own selfishness and to keep their live style.
@autumnal you have such a short sighted view. Where does it end? Will you allow parents to abort a child because it can have asthma or t1 diabetes?
If you can't accept the risk then you don't have kids.
Stephen As someone with diabetes I honestly wouldnt mind, also since children have a higher chance of getting diabetes if their parents have it.
I agree
i don't see any dilemma here. Iceland's population is so genetically interlinked so they have to get these screenings or bring in some new blood from the continent to lower the risks of having kids with genetical disorders. such a small population can't afford ill people. and as discussed below, parents will just spend all of their free time dealing with these ill kids till their death and there will be no one who cares about them when they will need some help. basically living in a constant stress. a better option is to adopt a healthier kid if can't get one of their own. dilemma solved.
quite the opposite actually this country is a femminist heaven. And you are a racist this has nothing to do with race what is the reason bringing race into this?
Patrick the county were they celebrate the Abortion of downs kids feminist heaven I think downs should be alive and aren't a problem I guess I'm not a feminist. The reason so many fetus are defects is because lack of diversity in genetics with is something alt right talk about when they say preserve the white race.
OP you really have a decent understanding of Iceland, more than the journalists in the video actually. They only give some facts, some who are in favor of the facts and some who are against but no one talks about the underlying reasons of why this is a fact. Too bad news institutions don't care about journalism anymore because you'd make a fine writer.
If you bring in "new blood", there will just be some other disorder, defect, or disease that the ethnic group is prone to. Every ethnic group is prone to something, be they Gaelic peoples with spina bifida, or West Africans with Sickle Cell Anemia. No amount of "new blood" will change this fact.
@gavinlane yeah, and smokers die from lung cancer too. that is not the point here... your mentioned diseases are just physical drawbacks that you can even treat. you just simply cannot compare it on the level of Down's Syndrome or Autism which are nearly guaranteed problems in case of incest. and those are just some that can come even in a bundle. with physical disorders you can often fight or adapt your life to, with mental ones you simply cannot which in many cases makes that somewhat physical body of yours just a useless vessel.
Well, I'm ok with it.
🙄
@@thatgirlreacts5465 honestly you are more cancerous for using an emoji
Ghristopher Myers [Official] 🙄
You already pick and choose which children are brought into the world via birth control and condoms. Having more information about any decision this important to not only your life but the people around you is only a good thing.
eradicated might be the wrong word to use lol
agreed!
i say exterminating is more arousing
Actually, it kind of isn't, as that is exactly what is happening here.
Agree but I think they mean in term of the disease not in a sense of person who get the disease.
Harrison Jendrusch it is a disease. A human with a disease is still a human, but you aren't giving birth to a "down syndrome". The disease is genetic, and thus it is hard to accept that it is an issue instead of an inherent, normal trait.... but it is a issue. Down syndrome is an issue for the sufferer and the people around the sufferer. Humans solve problems. That is just what we do.
It's not a nice decision but talking from experience, life with a child who has a disability despite rewarding at times is debilitating to all those involved.
its a hard choice to make
agreed and what happens when the parents and family pass away or cant provide the care they need they end up being cared for by the state and are at high risk of being neglegted and abused
if you think a child deserves to lead a full and active life then do everything in your power to give them that oportunity and get screened
My mom's family was devastated when my aunt (the youngest) was born with cerebral palsy. Her father made my aunt the focus of his life, neglected his other kids, and his life just revolves around her still.
you don't just choose between parenthood but also between becoming a caretaker or not.
nobody should judge
Some Downs Syndrome kids can live at home. Others have such mental disability that they must be institutionalized. IQ's will vary from the 60's down to the barely measurable.
Being icelandic, this is the first time i hear this subject described as being a dilemma.. I do not see what is wrong with this or how its a dilemma..
You will never see the problem with it. Stone cold heart, stone cold society. That is what Iceland has become.
@@nick-her9275 Is that why they call it Iceland and not Greenland?
The problem is that your government is encouraging women to have abortion if their son or daughter has Down syndrome. And this is and extermination because the plan is to eliminate Down people in Iceland by the time.
I honestly don't see the problem, I don't know what I would do in that situation, but also I am not going to demand a women carry a child she isn't equipped to deal with. Being pro-choice means letting that pregnant mother CHOOSE.
Like many commenters I don't see a "dilemma" either.
They don't promote down syndrome as a disease that has to be eradicated. They simply offer the to-be parents a test that enables them to make an informed decision if they feel capable of raising a child with down syndrome or not. I want to have children but I know that raising a disabled child would strain my emotional and mental resources to the brink so I would have every test performed to minimise the risk.
It doesn't mean I'd love my child less if it happens to have any genetic disorder but if there are ways to reduce my and my child's strain and suffering I will take them. Life IS more difficult if you have any kind of disorder, I know that from experience, so I'd want to ensure my child has the happiest life it can have. If that means an abortion and a second try, so be it.
Fiona Marie Wanting to reduce suffering does not give you the power to end someone’s life
I don't. I don't see an abortion as ending someone's life because by that time it's not yet "Someone" but "something". If you have the choice of saving a child from drowning or a medical chest with 1000 fertilised embryos - 1000 lives ! - which would you choose ?
The dilemma stems from the view that this could be a slippery slope. Agreed, Downs could be seen as a quite severe disability, and it could well be argued that parents should be able to make that choice. But if we start terminating pregnancies after detecting downs, what's next? Perhaps we'll be able to screen pregnancies for allergies, diabetes, poor sight. At what point does screening for disabilities become genetic puritanism, and is that something we want in our society? Not saying that I agree with this opinion, but I think that there is some validity to their concern.
Brilliantly put.
It's my body and life so I should have the right to do what is right for me and my family. Are you going to support these mothers with down syndrome children emotionally, financially, and physically? If not, don't criticize them because its hard enough for them to reach this decision. DON'T JUDGE!!
I understand why people are upset, but here's how I see it. Say you might not be that rich, and so you go and get this test done because you can barely afford to have a kid as it is. If the child has down syndrome then not only are they in bad health but also a in bad financial position.
Stop having sex then. Best solution.
Leave it to the capable, adults.
if you dont think that you are in a good position to have kids its okay to just not have kids. But once you have kids its no longer a matter of thinking about your money but about your children. Parents aways find a way to raise their kids.
Peter Fisher I don't know about Iceland, but where I come from health insurance pays for prenatal screenings and even (afaik) abortions.
Problem solved. Wouldn't surprise me if it's the same in Iceland. Those people take care of each other quite well.
Who Pooped In The Pudding? - Either that or keep having/have more safe sex. Both would work just fine.
Everest314 You have been saying that multiple times. Okay, I understand, the place where you live is awesome with enough money to pay for people's health care. But that doesnt solve the real problem which is that some people dont like abortions because its literally killing a baby. I dont even know why you brought up that since its the same thing as the video, people are receiving free abortions.
I was in the boys brigade when I was a kid and one of the boys had Down syndrome and he was the sweetest most genuine person I’ve ever met and he was always happy and making people laugh.
That's nice he was able to do that. Many Trig babies can't lift themselves off the couch. It's not all touchy feels angel babies with a DS baby.
Society is so two faced. They tell you down syndromes are beautiful and lovely people yet at the same time believe their existence isn’t worth protecting from eradication...
Abortion isn’t the answer. Science is the answer. We must find ways to fix the genetics of unborn children.
He probably wasn't making people laugh on purpose.
I don't see anything wrong with this. Freedom of choice.
Agree, how is this not good news
I agree with you
The murdered child would not agree....
pol dalaigh it’s not a child
@@issecret1 so why do these women feel upset and want to see them after they have been murdered?...and why would they need a priest?......of course its a child....
My family has parkinsons and i chose to not have children because of it. I couldn't inflict that on someone else
I think many more people should make such considerations before getting children, including getting children with DS. I think yes we should have the choice. But we should emphasize the choice before conception and not afterwards. I think making choices afterwards is quite a reactive approach.
I have autism and I'm choosing not to have kids either, adoption is always a better route if you have a condition that you could pass on to your children, in my opinion. But to each their own.
So why have children in the first place?
Susie, most times you don't pass it down. My maternal grand mother died of it. my mom is growing older fine , so are her siblings , and I am dad to a young adult . we are good. my gran died aged 57 .
I feel the same way. I will never have children because I have bipolar disorder and my worst fear is passing it on.
who is going to take care of them when the parents die and what quality of life will they have then?
Depending on the Country the state will have to pay big time.
In Iceland they are taken care of just as with other citizens through our wellfare system (our taxes) which is how it should be.
It sounds like you think you are doing them a favor? I think a chance at life and to be loved stacks well over death followed by your feet dipped in paint for the parent's memory box..
sxyangeleyez well stated I hate ppl that talk and have Neva experienced raising such a child
sxyangeleyez Good point!
I don't understand the comments here. I just watched a video where people spent untold hours and countless thousands to save orangutans who had been caged and weren't able to grow properly - as a result, their limbs were malformed and they were in severe pain. It has thousands of "thumbs up!" and "hooray for saving the orangutans" as scientists spent extreme time and effort to get them well.
But here's the thing. They suffered, they still suffer as they're not properly introduced into the wild and can't survive on their own. They can and will need constant care.
But yet people are somehow ok with that, and seem to champion the effort.
Yet a child, due to no fault of their own, acquires or develops in such a way that is not typical, and in such a way that means they'll need assistance through much of their life...and somehow most people in the comments are OK with killing them.
SMH....
the ones with down too
I dont understand it...it's disgusting. I hate the part where they have a memorial service for their own baby that they ordered to be murdered. Its disgusting, disturbing and frankly satanic. How?
Except that the Down syndrome fetuses are aborted before they ever reached consciousness. They didn't ask to be conceived in the first place. They have no skin in the game. There's a big difference between dying and never being born.
Did anyone else laugh when she said that they bring the dead fetus to the mother so she can kiss it and say goodbye?
I don't know if you're (or she's) aware how an abortion works but I'm pretty sure no one would like to kiss it.
its iceland. everything is better in iceland...maybe even the abortion isn't as gruesome as it is in other parts of the world . xD
There's an emotional bonding however irrational it is.
I would terminate my pregnancy if they found that the fetus has Down’s syndrome. I would NEVER willingly bring a child like that into such a cruel world.
Same here. I agree 100%.
If you believe the world is so cruel why bring a child into it at all? Every child is destined to suffer horribly and die.
Tiffany Gloucester well, it depends where you live and how bad the prejudices are. here in iceland, not so much.
Gerald Preston yeah I think I’m probably going to adopt
What if he was very autistic?
What if he was an average autistic?
What if he had a gimp leg?
What if he had weaker than normal bones?
What if he had allergies?
Where does it end?
Suffering and cruelness is part of life and if you cannot find beauty in that, then I feel sorry for you.
We have to remember that the parents won't live forever and this kids will need to be looking after, who will do it?
rachel spiess people with down syndrome become independent after sometime. They have jobs often times when they grow up.
They only have jobs through "make work" jobs and it's never enough for them to live on. Usually the "jobs" they do just end up making the people around them suffer. Not sure where you are getting the idea that they become independent after sometime...perhaps the very highest functioning ones can swing it but the vast majority become wards of the state in group homes or they get welfare checks until they die(after using god knows how much money on their heart defects and everything else they typically have problems with).
rachel spiess or the opposite, the child dies before the parents. My understanding is downs children don’t live very long, usually. My cousin died at age 26. They tend to have other issues that lead to death, like pneumonia, etc.
@@vihansubramaniam3593 Down Syndrome has a spectrum. Some people with Down Syndrome can have careers and live independently. Others will never have such capabilities may require special care for their entire life.
You speaking like you don’t remember two things. 1. That people with Down’s Syndrome typically have a shorter life span and 2. If they aren’t able to work there are people and services available to help care for them. It’s a little like saying “well if me and my siblings (if you have any) die early, who will take care of our parents?” You have other family members, and there’s plenty of assisted living and in home care places to help.
2022 and this subject is more touchy. Prayers for everyone
can someone tell me what is the moral dilemma with eliminating genetic defects? its cruel to the individual that will never have the same life as someone without a genetic defect, its cruel to the parents that cant afford to take proper care of their child with a genetic defect, and its cruel to society to masquerade that genetic defects all result in happy, relatively normal children when the spectrum has such a wide range and there is such a small percentage that are able to be self sufficient at some point.
Oh good grief what do people think the POINT of genetic testing is anyway? Abortion is legal, there is really no issue here apart from the holier than thou whiners.
Are you in iceland or US?
The issue is not about genetic testing -- well, a little bit -- and certainly not about the Right to Choose.
The issue is about decisions, especially major ones like choosing to Abort a pregnancy, needing to be *informed* ones. And it seems that the idea people have about the quality of life of kids and adults with Down Syndrome is a far too low estimate, which if assumed true would make the decision to abort all foetuses for whom DS is diagnosed a very poorly informed decision. And thus an indefensible decision.
Sure, it seems fine now but there might be people choosing to abort based on kids gender or something.
Martin Štěpán people already abort to select for gender, it's not uncommon in third world countries.
Feminists would disagree.
Is not ironic that the same people that villify the person having an abortion are the same people that do not support social programslike free health care.
LAVIN20 no such thing as free healthcare
You're describing Republicans.
True, but a basic standard shouldn't be that expensive or anywhere near "beyond the means" of a wealthy advanced nation in the 21st century; even MRI is now 50-year-old technology. Ex: The USA doesn't blow nearly 5% of GLOBAL GDP either cause its doing a fantastic job of taking care of poor people...or most of its citizenry for that matter at any standard of efficiency. Even at that, those who provide care are those having a job and earning a salary that the money's going to, as are we patching up the health of our people who work better when healthy. Bit like say, we're having debate now over "food stamps" when at the level we currently spend, they're considered an "economic multiplier" (and this is studied) with roughly every $1 the government puts in generating $1.80 in the economy. Now, were we to ramp the program up to spending $1 Trillion a year, it'd likely be a colossal waste, but at $50-100 Billion its money well spent. -Obviously there's always debate over how what we do could be improved to accrue "lost opportunity" benefits.
Says who?!?
Don't people know that when you say free healthcare you refer to financed by taxes/other methods?
Eugenics
The one shame of my country is killing unborn babies for convenience of the parents.
Well if you can abort the child while it's still a fetus in the very early stages and doesn't have any brain activity then whats so immoral about it really?
MrPizzaslice it’s barely ever done, that’s why. Most women abort a few months in, sometimes even into the final two months of pregnancy, where the child is ready to pop out.
that is..not true
The majority of abortions, 37.2%, happen within the first 6 weeks, at 6 weeks the fetus is the size of a lentil.
Ellie really? Please, explain how the majority don’t take place after a month and a half, enlighten me.
Thedemonhater 54% happen before 7 weeks, so the majority actually do abort before "a few months in".
For me, it is not a dilemma. Life with a disability is filled with unimaginable difficulties and sorrow. If I can stop one such life from being born and suffer, I will. I know it sounds inhuman, but it's not.
So I better be dead cause I have a gene abnormality, health issues and chronic pain? Still glad I am alive, but not to read your comment.
sabserab I am disabled too. I have spine problems and am on wheelchair since birth. My family loves me to death but I am well aware what they go through while taking care of me. There's no romanticism in being disabled or sick nor is it brave.
Suffering is not meaningless.
@sabserab "So I better be dead cause I have a gene abnormality, health issues and chronic pain?"
Preventing the ill from being born is not killing them as adults, you simpleton LIAR.
Your ilk is dangerous cultists and your ilk needs to to be stopped.
Good for you, wise megha sharma. Be well.
I work with individuals that are mentally handicapped every single day in my field. I decide the best method in order to how to adapt individuals into a community enviornment and this honestly hurts. Each and everyone of the individuals I care for have their own personality and their own strengths and weaknesses. As much as it pains me to see this, I can understand why individuals would want to follow through with this. My sister has developmental disabilities, I've seen her struggle to get her words out to express herself, I've seen countless seizures. I've seen my residents pass, I've seen them ask for family that never arrives and every single day it breaks my heart but I can only hope to make their life as comfortable and as happy as possible. Being a 68w in the National Guard, I convey all that I learned in AIT and basic into my civilian career. I must protect them, make sure they are comfortable and despite not being blood they are my family and I do not stand for people treating them in a disrespectful manner.
I think it’s rather exhausting to have colleagues with mental disabilities, especially due to risk of accidents when they feel the right to do something and I end up mortified, but ig I have to adapt?
This is horrific . Jesus please come back
no its not
conservative
@@mopopallpai3856fascist
selfish christian wants the world to end
It's so obvious that this news segment was under the influence of pro-life activists. Nothing about this is an issue or a dilemma. It's great that people are given the ability to make a choice as long as they treat those who are born with different abilities with respect.
Ah, but the last part of what you say seems a real problem. If it comes to the stage where many, even most, of those deemed abnormal or undesirable are being aborted, is it not likely that the few who were not detected and are born will be victimised, their families pressured, even euthanasia urged upon them?
Or, if allowed to live, that they will face lives of discrimination even worse than they would face today, for being 'unwelcome undesirables' in a 'perfect' world?
Further.. what happens as we discover and become able to detect more and more genetic or developmental abnormalities? Who sets the standards for what differences are acceptable human variation, and what ones are to be eliminated?
It's a slippery slope when we start deciding what are acceptable/desirable human characteristics and what are not. Once you start down that road you need to be very, very careful how far you want to go. What is desirable today might not be tomorrow. If the pattern is already established that you can get rid of what is not desirable, then you have to be ready for the day when it is decided that you yourself are put on the pile not desirable and then treated accordingly.
That is not a valid argument, everything we do is not a "slippery slope" thats a fallacy. We are talking about a serious disability, this will never be "desirable".
Graham King, your argument is, if there are less people with disablities it will make them more likely to be bullied, so this is a bad thing, is absolutely ridiculous. The world is FAR from perfect. Who sets the standard? Nobody. Everybody. The standard is just popular opinion. Its the mothers decision, for better or worse, details can be discussed but theres no other way that respects the individuals rights best.
I'm extremely pro-choice. I think that someone should be able to have an abortion at any time for any reason. But I still acknowledge that this is an issue with a lot of nuance, and it does have echos, if not outright parallels, of eugenics.
But I'm autistic, with a host of mental health problems, so this hits a bit close to home for me. Researchers have been trying to look for genetic markers for autism to "cure" it in a similar way to what they've done with Down's.
Obvious because it contained both sides of the argument, rather than just the one you choose to agree with?
What I learned from this video is that 100% of women in iceland are smart.
"When you run into people who have children with down syndrome, they love them dearly"
Yes, that will be true for literally anything. Even serial murderers and rapists. Parents love their kids unconditionally. That's not front page news. That doesn't mean there is something wrong with not wanting to deal with avoidable added pressures.
Not all parents love their kids. Thankfully, the majority do!
Parents are people too, a lot of them are lovely and decent, but there is a minority of people who never ever should have kids... This because they either just can't take care of even healthy kids in the capacity of carer and cannot love their child(ren) despite being good people in general, or because they are absolutely horrible people who abuse and/or rape their own children (twisted "love" doesn't count as parental love).
You mean not something wrong with killing a person because you don't want to care for them. Call it plain, and go from there.
@@zzzzz4203 you're not killing a person. you're terminating a pregnancy which is a woman's right to do for literally any reason. you can terminate a pregnancy simply because you dont feel like raising a child.
Jarron Williams, What would you look like if I had snipped off an arm at 5 months in the womb? How many arms would you have now? Not killing a person, what a sad joke. Answer the question please.
@@zzzzz4203 you are aware of that congenital deformities happen all the time, right? Same with miscarriages. Also, so crushing an apple seed is the same as chopping down a 100 year old apple tree? You are confusing potential with actual personhood.
There is an important thing this video doesn't mention: 100% of women who get DS screening terminated the pregnancy, but that doesn't mean there aren't any children born with Down Syndrome anymore, it's just that most women who wouldn't want to terminate a DS pregnancy don't opt for an amniocentesis. My aunt recently gave birth to a lovely baby girl with Down Syndrome - she knew based on the nuchal fold thickness that the odds of her baby having DS were elevated, but because she knew she wanted to keep the baby either way, the amniocentesis (and the slight risk of miscarriage that comes with it) was not worth it for her.
My uncle has down syndrom, he plays soccer and sometimes soccer player from the local soccer team come and train with him and the other guys with disabilitys. He is happy allways hugs me, but you can clearly see that down syndrom is nothing nice. He has hugh problems to speak properly and he cant live on his own even tho hes 40... My grandmother is carring for him, has to buy everything and care for his health.
I myself would choose a abortion if my future kids would have down syndrom. My uncle is happy even with the restrictions but daily life is still a struggle sometimes for him. And I know a lot of cases where even down syndrom is a very hugh problem for these people. I would never force a kid in this world when I know that their daily life will be hard just because I could feel guilty because of a abortion
It's never a tragic decision to have a kid, and that's something that you should consider. You don't get old and think, man, I wish I would have aborted those kids so I could have had less responsibility and more fun, you look back and wonder what you destroyed and what could have been.
Not per se, I impregnated a girl few years ago and she chose to abort it. If I would have convinced her to keep it, it would only have had one of the worst lives, we would never be able to support it and then what? Put it in the baby hatch and let someone else take care of our mistake? It is better to get rid of it if you don't know how to clean up your own mess.
As for Down's I'm not allowed to speak since I don't know anyone who raised them or has this condition but I can imagine that for some it might be too much responsibility to handle. I do have respect for the people that have the heart to give these people a chance to have a decent life, though.
Graf Vladumir So does your uncle wish he wasn't born?
I hope one day you'll be required to live by your beliefs.
My grandma's friend has a daughter with DS who's about 50 now. She also does all kinds of activities with other DS people around here but you can see the care takes a huge toll on the 75 y.o. mother. It's cruel.
I think that we are now fortunate to be in the position to let parents know in advance that there may be an abnormality with
their unborn child. They can then make their decision as to whether to continue with the pregnancy or not. They can decide whether that by continuing they may well have a child who's dependent on their support for not 16 - 18 years, but it may well be 20, 30, 40 or more years. Not only their support but society as a whole who will also have to support this person, especially if his/her parents become incapable through age or illness, become incapable of supporting them.
Chris Ward can we do this with lazey people. Lazy non productive people are a large burden on society
Aborting is against the human right and constitution in the US. I think that if the baby is already doomed, at least give it a chance, if not you can give it the chance.
Choice*
True. I have seen adults abandoned in psychiatric hospitals because their parents have passed away and they either have no other family or their remaining family don't want to look after them.
Currently my nanny is facing this problem. She is 62 and her disabled daughter is 32. She keeps working to provide for her daughter but she realizes that she can't work for much longer. Now my nanny faces the question on what to do with her daughter, who is going to look after her daughter when she is gone. The woman has the intelectual ability of a five year old and has the communication ability of a 2 years old.
Chris Ward i think an abortion should not occur based on if your children has down symdrome or not because that is an inhumane reason to perform one
While I do feel bad for the people that suffer with Down Syndrome; I can't feel bad about parents choosing to have a healthy child.
It's your love for the child and the unbearable thought of them suffering that leads to this. A mother's love a blessing..
I know that it's mental disorders in people that cause the misery of murders violence and paedophilia and hopefully one day that can be screened out to..
As someone who has ms and has been disabled for the last 8/10yrs i have to tell that it's no way to live! Every single day is pain, pills and dr's! I haven't truly lived in at least 8yrs and trust me I wouldn't bring a child into this world to suffer the same pain because it's heartbreaking to watch everyone else doing the normal things that you miss, but watching people not doing anything is the most painful!
I've had kids and I WOULD NOT WANT TO BRING A LIFE INTO THE WORLD ONLY TO MAKE IT SUFFER EVERY SINGLE DAY OF THEIR LIFE!
IF YOU HAVE NEVER LAID IN BED SOBBING FOR SEVERAL DAYS (OK OK, MONTHS) BECAUSE THE PAIN IS SO BAD, THEN YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT KIND OF LIFE YOU ARE FORCING ONTO YOUR OWN CHILD!
IF YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN IN SO MUCH PAIN THAT YOU START TO SERIOUSLY THINK ABOUT A QUICK HOLIDAY TO DIGNITAS THEN YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE CHOICES THAT YOU ARE MAKING FOR YOUR CHILD!
ANY ADULT GROWS TO LOVE ANY CHILD THEY HAVE REGARDLESS OF THE PROBLEMS THEY HAVE! THAT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING TO THE DEBATE!
NY19Constituent A priest’s sperm die in his body. The vast, vast, vast majority of people stay unborn. We can’t even make a dent in it. Might as well start off with reasonably healthy ones if we can. Not ones with crippling disabilities.
My brother with Down syndrome is not suffering btw the only difference between me and him is he has trouble speaking and a lower IQ. Everybody here just assumes that people with Down syndrome are suffering spend a minute with a Down syndrome person and you will realize that they are probably happier about life than you can ever be
I have had close ties with two people with Down's Syndrome over my life and will confirm that they seem to be generally very happy souls from my personal experience. One only lived to be five, the other 39. They were both happy, gentle people. That, however, does not negate the reasons some parents can't or won't give birth to a baby with Down's Syndrome. That child will require special schooling and care in all but the least affected cases. Not everyone is built that way or has the resources financially.
Plus there is the very legitimate worry of how their children will be cared for when they die. That is a worry every parent of a special needs child has. No matter how well equipped you are financially, mentally, or emotionally, a special needs child puts extra strain on a relationship too and many couples split when one parent is unable to cope or they split the work unevenly. This can make the child's future care prospects even worse. If we reach a time when we can genetically repair more of these disabilities in the womb I will be glad of it for the parents and the kids both.
Danny Tonnessen MS is not Down syndrome
Memma Time.
Totally irrelevant to the discussion but I saw a “downs” family today.
Looked like an older downs guy with a couple of women maybe his Mam and Aunty and he was pushing an older lady in a wheelchair who I took to be his Grandma.
They were working together helping each other getting their shopping in they all looked happy minding their own business and getting on with their lives. 🌹
There is no ethical dilemma here. This isn’t a designer baby process, just simply deciding to not give birth to a damaged human being.
It’s only wealthy societies that can afford the luxury of the state having to look after increasing numbers of people who cannot look after them selves, of what ever age. Parents don’t elect to have children and then exclusively look after themselves from a care and financial perspective, they need and demand the state looks after their disabled children as if it were their right. It’s not cause, someone has to pay for that and most probably will for the life time of that human being.
That's a very strong argument. I love my sister and I wouldn't want to think about life without her, but I would be lying if I didn't say it made life more difficult for my parents and myself. I understand that it takes taxpayer money. I am her personal caretaker as well, and the state pays me 40hrs a week to do it. There's no way I will every pay into my state as much as I've received for doing this. It IS a burden on the rest of the my fellow citizens, albeit a small one compared to other social burdens we carry for lazy welfare idiots.
I love my sister. I would choose for her to be born if I could go back in time and change it, but if I had never known her I'm sure I would have much more free time and freedom to do what I want in my life. Sometimes I do even imagine what I might be doing with my life if it hadn't fallen on me to care for her. That's just the honest truth, parents and families HAVE TO KNOW what they are getting into, raising a disabled child is NOT EASY and is a huge mental and fiscal drain.
This isn't a designer baby process, it's eugenics.
Fancy, thank you for your honest feelings on this. You really are spelling out the whole issue. Respects to both you and your sister.
As someone said above, this is pure eugenics. It's cowardly to refer to it as anything else.
Uh. PEOPLE with disabilities are not damaged. They are just different. They have a different set of difficulties and gifts. Just like you and I are different. From "A person with a disability"
Down Syndrom is a genetic disorder that heavily affects child and parent, often making lives harder for both. People wanting the most healthy babies possible is the most natural, human thing.
"Pick and choose the children to bring into the world." Well, your body already does that. Many women experience spontaneous abortion by the body itself. Usually it is seen as a period because it happens so early in the pregnancy. As for screening for certain diseases, we should continue to do this. Woman and their families should have the choice whether to keep a baby to whole term. And, I like the idea of saying goodbye to the aborted baby. We say goodbye to our loved ones at a wake or a funeral and it allows people closure. It also allows a woman and her family to fully realize the result of their choice. Although, I do also feel if a woman doesn't feel to see the baby after the abortion, that should be respected as well.
And, not all people can afford to take care of a child with special needs. Some of those special needs are pretty extreme as far as cost. Of course, if the world were to change to accommodate that cost for people/families, then the decision to abort could change as well.
In Iceland they have socialized health care so it's not like they have to foot medical bills. In the US it's very well possible to be able to afford a child with no health problems but not a downs child. But in Iceland that argument is void. If you can't afford to care for the child in Iceland then you couldn't afford a healthy one either.
Mc Hobbit you sound like an expert on Iceland. Do you live there? Because I do, and I don’t agree with you.
Not in Iceland but in Europe. And I know for a fact that the US is one of the only if not the only 1st world country without some form of socialized health care.
lol @ calling any Western country 'socialist'
Well. Would you rather have a lifetime of caring for someone that can't deal with most life situations on their own. Those screenings are important. Why should we go against nature, other animals don't breed with obviously genetically flawed mates. As humans we have the knowledge to even see it before it is too late. What catastrophy has ever started with the words" think about yourself".
The Black Baron This is going against nature
Lauren Wood How? Most deformed animals don't survive in wildlife. The only way they survive is in zoos with special care. Same with people.
I know many perfectly healthy individuals that can't deal with most life situations on their own. Should they be killed too?
I agree that it is probably not good for severely mentally handicapped people to have children, especially for those whose mental age will stay at one of a kids'. But I dislike not giving them a chance in life at all. I work on a group for people with DS and other handicaps and I know that they don't behave all the time and have a hard time listening quite often. But I've grown a lot since working with them and learned so much patience and skills on how I might handle my future children. You need a lot of persistence, but it is so worth it for the smiles, quirky habbits and happy moments. I believe they are able to live good and happy lives as long as they are well taken care of, whether that is at home with their family or in a loving group home. So i'd say give them a chance at life, but try to avoid them ''breeding'' if possible.
I know doctors with down syndrom so shut your ignorant mouth
such a complex question. to be or not to be. humans have always struggled with the concept of right and wrong. the questions change but the dilemma stay. every generation has their own ghosts and battles.
Strange to think that as we’re becoming more accepting of disabilities we are also increasingly removing disabilities due to medical technology improving...
@Barrier Boy Trying to cure the disabled is definitely dystopian all right ...
Mr Meow killing is not curing
All women get a screening, and that screening is not for downs, its for fetal abnormalities. The downs screening is only done when women are over 40 or if the first screening indicates a fetal abnormality.
I had a downs screening by default a few weeks ago. I'm under forty with a low risk pregnancy. Downs screening is the standard now.
I'm in my early twenties and I have had 2 children both have been tested for downs. I also had a low risk in pregnancy.
Um NO not ALL women do. Well not in my free country that is. Put your broad brush down woman.
Mrs. Garcia All women get offered an early ultrasound to check on early fetal signs of trouble. That was my point. Not all women use that option.
But you weren't forced to & if you knew you wouldn't abort, presumably you wouldn't have agreed to it
It is totally okay to abort any child without knowing its genetic makeup but as soon as you do then it is cruel. I find the contradiction in thought difficult.
Now I know I am biased on the subject, however since you ask I will answer. My problem is the misrepresentation of the handicap, I don’t think enough is being done to show the positive side. I am not saying it shouldn’t be allowed, but personally I wouldn’t do it. I am of the belief that you should get to choose when you want to have a child and if you make the decision to have one, be ready for whatever. If it is estimated that the quality of life is insanely low, then fine get the abortion, but personally I don’t put Down syndrome in that category.
Mackenzie B i think the problem comes to "who will look after him/her when im gone", im studying health and soical care and the fact that downs syndrome is a spectrum people can not handle it, they dont know what they are getting. One downs syndrome person can have a very "normal" life, others needs to be cared 24/7 by people like me. However i dont think that you should really judge someone who has had an abortion and their grieving process, its different in other countries as well as person to person. For example, in many African countries people kiss, touch and hold dead bodies close to them at the funeral. Everybodies grieving process is different, i recently lost my father and im only 18, i didnt have any emotions towards it, dont get me wrong i cried etc, compared to my brother and sister who are in their late 20s to mid 30s they acted completely different towards it than i did. The person who went to college would be on the lower scale of downs syndrome compared to someone that would be high on the scale. Humans like choice, they also like to know what will happen.
011090 it is logical. U aren't logical.. Oh..
Laura Laborn
May I ask, what can a DS child that a non-DS child can not?
Marlon Moncrieffe are seriously asking this or?? Is this a joke?
I feel like this is the best way for eugenics to be implemented. More medical problems means more suffering
It may seem cruel, but dysgenics are worse than eugenics, not only for families but for society in general.
Who decides what dysgenics are? Once, there was a time when being a certain ethnicity was considered dysgenic…
My younger sister has Downs. And she is the most happiest, active, social, endearing person I’ve ever met. She loves to dance, and she has a bit of an artistic side. I sometimes can’t understand her, but she tries so hard to get her messages across, and after all these years I feel like I can pinpoint what she says even when others don’t understand her. She’s medium on the functionality scale; she can use the bathroom on her own, shower on her own (but we sometimes have to be conscious she doesn’t use too hot of water), she microwaves meals on her own, and for the most part she’s living a fulfilling life. Who’s to say what will come of her in the next 10, 15, 20 years? She’s 20 now, and will probably eventually move in to a care home, although I’m sure my parents will try and keep her as long as they can. She luckily doesn’t have any heart defects (Which a lot of Down’s kids have), or any other serious health issues.
Is she happy? I would say so. Am I happy to have known her. Absolutely. But I also can’t say that her life would have had more meaning had she never been born. I’m glad she’s here, but if she were never born, I wouldn’t know that I was missing anything. Also, because she’s mildly high functioning, I know she knows she’s different and it breaks my heart.
There’s a lot of suffering in this world. And we shouldn’t add to it. And this isn’t just for those with cognitive/mentally disabilities. There are no imaginary children, with downs’, or not, who are sitting in mythical waiting rooms waiting to be born. There is nothing lost when these children aren’t born. At least intrinsically, the only loss is the parents and the mentality they go through as they come to grasp with their decisions .
So let’s uplift them, and not feel sad for these unborn children, who fortunately are not sentient. Let’s take care of the ones we have here. I can guarantee the terminated children are not disappointed or hurting that they weren’t born. So why should we? In fact, I could say they were lucky never to be born.
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I have the same opinion. I have a cronical illness where my immune system is slowly destroying my kidneys. Due to medicine my immune systeme gets weakened. It is not destroying my kidneys but I get ill a lot. And maybe I will get cancer and kidney failure later.
If it is genetic I don't want to give birth to children. And if I would get pregnant I would abort.
When I do want to have children later there are enough who would like to be adopted.
relatv216 You write that your sister is the most happy, active, social and endearing person you have ever met and STILL think that society wouldn‘t be missing anything in she wasn‘t there? Who IS worth living then?
kac ka She's mildly high functioning, so probably not. Good on you for making fun of a disabled person though.
I had some neighbors who had a child with downs.. there was nothing happy about that experience.. the screaming, they yelling... When I first moved into the area, I thought someone was being murdered. I called the police..
Eventually they sent the girl away they could not handle it.
A downs child is yours for life.. do you really want to deal with that..
And why shouldn't we be able to choose? Literally this is just a human nature, to give their children the best chance possible- any animal in nature would reasonably do whatever it takes if they knew that the offspring would have the best chance, and I think every mother knows that. I'm happy that some countries have taken note of that right we share.
Ashley Smith Aa
Ashley Smith what if a child is discovered to have a terrible disability after they are born? Is euthanasia acceptable for the already born?
Spencer Johnson That's why people get the test.
Just for clarity, you aren't giving your children the best chance. You're picking the children with the best chance. Not the same thing, regardless of how you feel about the issue
wicious i think you're just trying to make yourself seem like you have higher moral ground with different words that mean the same thing, lol
I wouldn’t choose to terminate a pregnancy over just Down syndrome myself, but I would be against laws that would take the right away from any pregnant woman to terminate her pregnancy, whether it be over Down syndrome, or anything else.
Calling a baby girl or boy a fetus doesn't change the FACT that it is a precious human being. And Down Syndrome isn't and shouldn't be a death sentence. I know from firsthand experience that each special child is so valuable. People need to wake up and cherish children... and care for them.
It's important to remember that the severity of mental retardation among Downs Syndrome victims varies. Some are functional. Others are completely dependent.