This Fixed My Model Railroad Switches
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ส.ค. 2024
- Frog Juicer
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“The godly may trip seven times, but they will get up again.
But one disaster is enough to overthrow the wicked.
Don’t rejoice when your enemies fall;
don’t be happy when they stumble.
For the Lord will be displeased with you
and will turn his anger away from them.
Don’t fret because of evildoers;
don’t envy the wicked.”
Proverbs 24: 16-19 NLT
The Circuitron Tortoise switch machine has two sets of SPST switches for this. I have 35 turnouts on my layout and used these to control frog polarity. The exception was was for a double crossover and a crossing and I used frog juicers for this. Frog juicers on work for DVC, not DC. I like how well you demonstrate the installation and your overall video subjects. BTW, Starbucks’s French Roast freshly ground is the coffee that I drink. 😋
I thought the same, why not use the built in feature for that in the tortoise motors
With the risk of getting reprimanded or something like that, I’m going to say, this is why some people find model railroading complex and expensive sometimes, why adding more when you can do it with less and that doesn’t mean you are cutting corners or anything it is just the most effective and less expensive way to do it and probably the right way to do it (( I know, I know everyone is different, but sometimes it’s just about making things easy and simple))
Hope you all understand my point of view
Nice demo, short and sweet ! I am surprised that this 4 axles loco did not pickup currents from the 3 other axles ! But with a hot frog, no more problems!
Frog Juicer sounds like some form of a blender. 🤣 I have to say that I have never heard of them before, but I can see the need for them.
Between the Tortoise and the Frog you are getting an aquatic theme there, are you going to have a small pond or lake for them to live in? 🤣 Today's coffee is Black Pointe Donut Shop Blend.
I think you should also show how to use the Circuitron Tortoise machines to route power to the frogs. They have a built in switches that also you to change the frog polarity and do power routing. This would also save you some money since you would need to buy the frog juicers. I would use frog juicers if I had manual throw switches since the manual throws don't have power routing capability. I still think it's good to show different options like the juicers.
I'm all for powering frogs, but in this particular case the wheelbase of the truck (and there are two of them) is longer than the frog. So even when one axle was on the frog the other three should have continued to receive power from the other rails. If there was any stuttering or stalling then it was due to other factors.
If you’re using FrogMang fluxcore to weld up your frog then you should be getting 180 amps at 28 volts running at 270 inches per minute and an inch and a half stick out. Slight drag angle, and make sure to blend in about 30% to the previous bead so you get a nice flat weld to minimize grinding.
Like you Jimmy, another wise model railroader taught me to use green for frog power. His reasoning was different, he asked me what colors frogs are.
I was a bit surprised that you decided on Frog Juicers seeing as you have Tortoise switch machines which will switch frog power for you - no "shorting" to switch power at the frog. The only issue with using them is if you come down the throat of the turnout and it hasn't been thrown, you'll generate a short and have to manually clear it. The frog juicer will handle this (but at extra cost over the money already invested in the Tortoise.
I use both. For my automated turnouts I use Switchwrights from Tam Valley and they too will route frog power so that's what I use. But there is one darn turnout that I use a lot and way too often I forget to switch it and I end up with a short when I come around - sigh. I also have a quad frog juicer that I use on a layout where the turnouts are manual. Oh and I use a dual frog juicer as an Auto-Reversing unit on one of the layouts as well. I do really like the Frog Juicers, nice and small and they just work reliably all the time for me.
Keep the videos coming, I really enjoy and look forward to them.
Hey Don! Yes the Tortoises can do that, but I wanted to show a way that anyone can power the frogs. That way if somebody came across this video and didn't have tortoises, they can still implement this.
Green wire for frog because frogs are green😂😂😂. Thanks for sharing.
You need to switch the points to actually test the polarity change. Forward and backwards should be the same polarity on the frog.
You are correct, but I think Jimmy was just demonstrating that there was no loss of power as the loco went through the turnout.
I think Kennedy G answered my question about whether or not your switch machines can control frog polarity. I have been using Blue Point switch controllers on my n scale layout with great success; they also have the ability to power and change frog polarity. I have also used the caboose industries ground throughs with the ability to power and change frog polarity. They are a little large and clunky looking for N scale, but at about $5 each, they are a reasonable budget option for Atlas switch users.
Nice work on the videos Jimmy.
I used to have an issue with my N Scale Peco insulfrogs where my engine would short across the back of the frog. I found that the two rails coming into the frog joing across a thin piece of plastic which wasn't a wide enough gap so the wheels could sometimes reach over to the opposite track (This will make the normal buzzing/whining when it shorts). I know that isn't the same issue here, but it causes a similar problem. As for keeping good connection, I added ground throws with extra springs in them and left the original peco springs in the switches to add more pressure, never had an issue since
That was on of my deciding factors to use the kato track and switches. They made life easy in that department. Although adding the juicer doesnt seem to difficult. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for answering part of my question, before I posted it.
I have been meaning to add frog juicers to my layout for way too long now. Especially since I like running switchers, the frog juicers are helpful.
Another way to deal with this problem is to install a keep alive capacitor in the locomotive itself.
The only difference is that with a KA, during the time of no contact, the decoder can't receive commands just continues to execute the last one. Since directly after the turnout there could be a train, I am not comfortable with uncontrolled locomotives moving towards them. I still use KAs though, but only on those locomotives where it's absolutely necessary. And I have all my frogs live.
Question:
Why not use the built in switches that all the Circuitron tortoises have in them?
Just wondering
After building my previous layout (#7, and #4 in N scale) I decided that frog juicers were a must. On my new layout all of my turnouts are manual throw, so I didn't have the option of using the switch machines to power the frogs. I have 5 of Tam Valley's 6-way frog juicers installed, and I've had many comments from fellow model railroaders about how well my n scale layout runs, especially through turnouts. I'm using a combination of Peco electrofrog and unifrog turnouts, and the frog juicers work great! Sure, I probably could have used keep-alives in my locos, but it can sometimes be difficult in N scale to fit a keep-alive in the loco, and now I don't have to worry about adding keep-alives to new locos as they're added to the railroad.
My turnouts are also manually thrown, using pushrods mounted in the fascia. The pushrod operates a DPDT slide switch under the turnout, which provides power to the frog.
What are the ultimate comparisons on using frog juicers on trouble switches versus using a keep alive in your locomotives? I would think the keep alive would be better for switches that have plastic frogs but I'm curious on your thoughts.
Keep alive vs juicer/other method. If u have a couple locos or u travel to other layouts. The keep alive is most likely the budget friendly route. If u have lots of locos, run at your layout a lot and have visitors. Probably best to make sure the track work is more bulletproof. Making the other option a good call.
The biggest problem with the Keep Alive is that, so far at least, very few locos come equipped with a Keep Alive. The Keep Alive is very bulky and can be tricky to install. The Nov 2022 Railroad Model Craftsman has an article on installing a Keep Alive, and the author had to cut away a portion of the weight to make a space for it. I use frog juicers on all my turnouts, and if I could, I would install Keep Alives on all my locos as well.
Jimmy, would a stay alive decoder work as well
Good video, but I'm confused, don't the tortoise machines have built in switching for frogs? Isn't that piece you added superfluous?
Yes you are correct. I did this video to show everyone how to fix the issue regardless of switch machine. I didn’t want to show how to use the tortoise and somebody who doesn’t have it is out of luck.
Got the Frog Juicer but getting Conflicting info on modifying a Peco Electrofrog Switch for DCC.
Need Help Wiring one up to test. Really need 5 new ones Wired in.
There is a Wiki Doc showing cutting Closure Rails and adding extra Feeders between them and the Insulated Joiners on the Frog end. Under the Electrofrog there is an X of 2 Jumper wires from the Factory.
Found this on the Tam Site:
Peco Electrofrog Update- All Frog Juicers have both been modified to work with Peco electrofrog turnouts (and other power-routing turnouts) as they come. You still need to insulate the Peco electrofrog turnouts as in the instructions that come with the turnout. Peco Insulfrogs do not need a frog juicer as the frog is plastic and cannot be powered.
Hoping this means Electrofrogs only need the
2 insulated Joiners on the Outbound Frog rails.
If I do that future switching layout I'll be using Walthers DCC friendly turnouts. Still watching🚂🇨🇦🇺🇲🙋
Really liking 👍🏻 the gp30. One of my favorites!
When designing a layout a person needs to figure if they will be running short wheel based locomotives. If so an electro frog turnout maybe the best option since it does not have a plastic frog. Then the use of a tourtise machine would change the polarity. This also would be best if there are many turnouts. A number between 1 to 5 turnouts probably just use the juicer.
Great demo Jimmy!! GP30 is my favorite!!😊👍
SD-45 -> Does the Frog Juicer do the same thing as a Digitrax AR1? Instructions seem a lot easier. I also saw a DCC Dual Frog Juicer and Auto-Reverser, and a Hex Juicer and those may be options as well. I’m using N-scale Kato Unitrack if it matters and I’m beginning to rethink NCE vs Digitrax as I haven’t ordered yet.
Nice Tip. But a lot of turnouts have plastic frogs. At least the once which I use from Fleismann and Minitrix. However I know that the pointers get their power the way they are set. Straight or divergent
Great easy to understand explanation of how to install the frog juicer. I’m still in the planning stages of my layout, still making space and building prefabricated benchwork, so taking all this into consideration. I noticed that the locomotive kind of raised up as it went over the frog in the turnout, is that normal and or expected?
Again thanks for your great videos.
The loco hobbling across the turnout is because of the design of the turnout frog (what an ugly word - in german we call this "Herzstück", that is heart piece). Most older designs of model turnouts use either a metal or plastic cast piece with grooves in it for the frog. The loco (or car) is supposed to run on the wheel flanges through this part of the turnout. This was done because "back in the days", clearances for wheel flanges had to be much larger, the wheels had to be wider, than what is possible with modern maufacturing today. This means the gaps between rails in the turnout had to be so large, that a wheel would just drop in and no smooth running was possible. Even worse, a wheel flange could be caught in the gap and cause the loco or car to derail. By replacing rails with this one-piece frog, basically just a block with grooves in it, the wheel flanges could ride "on the floor" in the bottom of the grooves, resulting in smooth running and reduced risk of derailment.
However, this requires rather high wheel flanges. As wheel flanges have become much smaller and even wheels have become finer over the last decades, this no longer works and when running over an old-style frog, the wheel will drop a bit into the gap, causing the rolling stock to wobble.
It is possible to build model turnouts with a more protoptypical layout, where the wheels run on rails, but as this requires much smaller gaps, this also means wheel flange width and the distance between the inner parts of the wheels on the axle have to be very tightly controlled. Some rolling stock might need to have their wheelsets adjusted or even replaced.
For example, I have read that you have to expect problems running some old Fleischmann rolling stock through prototypical Weinert turnouts.
So either you want prototypical track and no "axle dip", then you need to make sure all wheelsets of all your rolling stock is up to standard (which can be quite a lot of work and also get expensive if you have to replace say a hundred wheelsets...), or you want to just run your existing stuff without much work, and the wobble and the unprotytypical look does not bother you to much, and this is when you choose the old-style turnouts. Prototypical turnouts are usually also more expensive.
You should be able to reduce the sinking in of new rolling stock in old-style turnouts by raising the frog floor a bit (fill up with brass tripes etc), but this will in return make the occasional old wheelset with really flanges climb up. So if this is worthwile or feasible depends on the composition of your rolling stock (as well as your tolerance for wobbling locos and small-scale, fiddly work).
As @DIY and Digital Railroad 's main message seems to be that you neither have to be an expert modeller, master craftsman and a millionaire (all in the same person) to have fun with a model railroad, but that model railroading should be an accessible hobby, he made the quite sensible choice to go with the cheaper traditional turnouts, which allow to run older, cheaper rolling stock without having to invest to much time, thought and money into the evolution of wheelset standards and norms...
I fixed the turnouts on my layout by using Kato unitrack instead of Atlas track. Lol
Wow that can't get any easier than that 👍👍
Will this circuit work on analog and dcc? I use both on my ho scale layout and I need a way to prevent Bachmann Thomas & Friends locomotives and steam engines from stalling in DC mode.
Atlas really placed the connector in-between the rails, above a tie? I have never seen anything like that. All my frog connections are outside, under the level of the ties, so the whole connection can be hidden by the ballast.
A few comments: (1) a mono frog juicer retails for $16.50. A hex frog juicer retails for $90. So if you need to power five frogs, you can pay 5x16.50=82.50, or $90 - you chose wisely. But if you're powering six frogs, you should get a hex frog juicer, because 6x16.50=99.00. (2) Many turnouts come with a wire already soldered to the frog, avoiding the need for another soldered connection above the ties. You just need to drill an extra hole under the turnout (or just outside the ties) to slip this wire through. Finally, many modelers have been using the auxiliary contacts in Tortoise or Blue Point switch machines to power their frogs for years. This is a bullet proof installation, but you need to carefully figure out which DCC feeder goes to which contact. The switch machines can face either of two directions along the track, turnouts can be left hand or right hand; all of this affects the wiring. For me, eliminating all that trial and error is easily worth $17. The Frog Juicer detects the short circuit LONG before the short can raise current to an unsafe level. Unfortunately, you CANNOT use a frog juicer on a DC layout! You're stuck with the tortoise contacts. 🙁
There is no trial and error needed, you can measure it with a multimeter and solder once.
Eh? Why not use your Tortoise switch engine to wire the frog? Seems the more logical and cheaper solution.
Next to that, frog juicer rely on a short circuit to function, briefly I admit but still fundamentally wrong imho.
Yes you are correct about the Tortoise. The reason I didn’t is that I wanted to show a way to solve the issue that would work for anyone and didn’t rely on having a tortoise switch machine.
Just curious. I saw an old technique using two nails and a wire. As the turnout changes, the wire changes from touching one nail to the other. Haven't tried it yet but makes sense. Why pay for a juicer?
Kinda lumpy going through the frog. Did you check your flangeways and railhead match?
how would you insulate it if it had no insultation, i bought the electrofrog switches and need to know because nobody is talking about it, do i just cut the arrow pointing into the switch IDK.
Hey Jimmy, just wondering how the frog juicer is holding up?? Still no issues? I'm looking at possibly using them on my lower level of my layout. I have tortoise switches on the upper portion but would like to use manual switches on the lower portion.
Can the frog juice work with Kato tracks?
Do ez track switches need frog juicers? Or is this just a particular problem with Atlas turnouts?
Would those frog juicers work for changing the polarity on a turn-around loop? Or would you use something else for that?
Does this device use a momentary short to cause the polarity flip?
Yes. I personally dislike the idea of this but at a few critical points it could work. It could cause problems with decoders but I have heard of very large model railroads that work just fine with them.
Do these juicers work with any DCC system or just DCC++?
Any.
Would you get that hesitation if “electofrog” (what ever they are) were used?
It is an "electrofrog" turnout, in the sense that the frog can be energized, as opposed to an "insulfrog" where the frog is made of plastic. The terms are trademarks of Peco, but many people use them in a general sense.
@@benbedothu if it was a electro frog, why then did his engine hesitate or stumble?
@@bruceyoung1343 Electrofrogs "can" be energized, but that doesn't mean they always are. As Jimmy says at the beginning of the video, the frog has to be separated from the stock rails, as they are of different "polarities" (more like phases, polarity has no meaning with DCC). Now you could connect a permanent feed to the frog from one of the stock rails, but that would cause a short in one of the directions. That's why you need to have a frog juicer, or use the terminals on the Tortoise, or use frog-juicing switch decoders to power the frog, as this way, the frog will always have the same signal on it, as the stock rail the wheel is going to travel on at.
was that a electro frog and if it was you didn't have to cut the other wires to modify them
That turnout is an Atlas code 83 #4. The frog is completely isolated. I actually disassembled a junk one of these to make sure haha!
@@DIYDigitalRailroad Are the frogs really that bad on Atlas switches? It looks like the locomotive is taking a flying leap over the frog.
@@IC-Tom Haha! No. I warped the plastic a bit when I soldered it. I filed it back down.
I have a peco double slip unifrog that causes my switcher to stall. Would two of these juicers work (one for each frog) or would I be better off with tame valley's dual juicer? I can't find much information at all when dealing with double slips.
My hunch is you need a juicer for each frog, but Tam Valley has great customer support - they can tell you for sure.
I am a bit unfamiliar with electronics, but how does the frog juicer know whether the switches are set in one direction vs. the other?
So the frog Juicer works in a similar way to an auto reverser in that when it detects a short circuit caused by the turnout being aligned differently than before, it reverses the polarity.
Oh man controlling everything from the app. My late father and I did everything manually for the most part I miss this stuff
Is there a reason you chose to not use the frog powering capabilities of the Tortoise switch machines you have on the layout?
Yes I wanted to make the video so that someone could fix the issue regardless of switch machine. If I did the tortoise only, then somebody who doesn’t have the tortoises would be out of luck.
@@DIYDigitalRailroad I understand and that makes perfect sense. I was just wanting to save you a few bucks if I could. Thanks for all the valuable things you have taught me in your wonderful videos.
I run a dc layout and yes i am new to this, when i switch my points (switches) and try to run a loco over them they short and go dead. any tips or advice for that will be most welcome. thankyou.
Hmmm. What brand of track are you using?
Some turnouts have a pretty small section which is electrically isolated. When locomotives with wider than normal flanges run through these turnouts, the flanges can bridge across the insulated portion and cause a short, even in DC. Examine your turnout closely: you should be able to see the insulated gaps in the rails around the frog. Then move your loco through the turnout (with track power off) and see if you can spot any trouble. It could be one or two "bad actor" locos on marginal turnouts.
@@DIYDigitalRailroad its peko.