Also there’s a chance that some of those ‘empaths’ are narcissistic themselves. It’s similar to the “all my exes are crazy” line. They just out here on the Internet establishing their own narratives.
Many people who claim to be empaths are forcing their interpretations of people's feelings/emotions etc on others because they are empathic. Many people who claim to be empaths are using it as an excuse to mistreat others, deny other people's experiences, and don't have the skills to express their feelings or set boundaries or self-regulation. There also people that make a great deal of money from encouraging others to not develop essential skills that can help them live happy lives and take responsibility for their feelings and experiences.
Sometimes the people we label as narcissists are simply hurting. There is no one more self-centred as a person who has just been hit by a car and is lying in the middle of the street.
How many of us have been hurt by someone and then said one or two nasty things back in anger, because we're hurt? Most of us. That doesn't make us narcissists.
I have been in many of the narcissist survivor support groups on Facebook. There are many hurt people in there, unfortunately, those groups can be very toxic. It reaffirms their victim status, and encourages their pain to fester, destroying any possibility of healing or empowering themselves so that they can move forward. . I was also attacked by the survivors that claim to have narcissists in their lives. I said something about the studies and how narcissism is on a spectrum and that I was a little concerned by some of the "outing" of their partners, family members, etc., by name, which is also a form of abuse. I was so vehemently attacked with venom, cursed at, and verbally abused. Labeled a covert/malignant narcissist. And I said I also have bipolar and other traumas and have experienced narcissistic behaviors from others. Regardless they continued to attack me and even use my abuse and suffering as ammunition. It triggered me and almost pushed me away from wanting to support others. It was one of the most emotionally damaging experiences ever These groups encourage hurt people to become toxic, self-defeating, self-absorbed, abusive, and hateful. Many of them become very narcissistic, apathetic, caustic, and abusive themselves. Also all these "narcissistic abuse" coaches... None of them have any proper training or even trauma awareness training. They do more harm than good. I feel taking advantage of people in pain when you are not trained is unethical and cruel.
One may not have the skills to accurately diagnose someone having Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) without proper training. However one can observe potential narcissistic traits in another person. A person exhibiting narcissistic traits does not mean they have NPD, as other personality disorders exhibit some of these traits. All of us has narcissistic traits to some degree and only becomes a concern when inappropriate behaviours become dominate. Before a person can seek treatment, wish for, or control the narcissistic traits or disorder, they need to know narcissism exists. If one questions whether they have NPD with self diagnoses, maybe it is time to see your doctor or a professional. Like cancer, treatment is best when the disorder is discovered early. One should know narcissism exists, in order to deal with those who potentially have NPD in a respective and safe manner. None of us wish to fall victim to a narcissist.
I’ve never felt comfortable making a diagnosis, but I gotta say, after watching every Dr. Ramani videos and learning how to survive living with a narcissistic parent, my life got a whole lot better and the years of abuse and gaslighting didn’t weigh on me and continue to make me think I was crazy. She’s my savior🙌🏽
@@M.j.7 I think you’re missing the point of the video. In an example that’s not mental health, a dietitian can put out informative videos about how to eat healthy or recognize if there are trigger foods in your diet, but that comes at the risk of people taking that information and starting to give information about dietetics and nutrition without formal training. Ana isn’t criticizing the doctors, she’s pointing out the harm that can be caused by laypeople taking information presented by the doctors and presenting it as if they are now the experts because they feel confident from the snippets of information they got on TH-cam.
There is also the phenomenon where people gather and speculate online about how public figures are narcissistic, often without enough data to make an accurate assessment. For example, Meghan Markle. The only data people have are her public appearances, what media says about her, or other 3d party information. People oberanalyze her body language and speculate heavily on this basis. For instance, I've seen a specific video yesterday about how the fact that Megan and Harry hold hands with interlocked fingers and how this shows that Meghan is a narcissist that wants to control Harry. Or how the fact that she always touches his hand while he speaks shows she's controlling. These are all inaccurate and harmful assumptions that people do just for fun or out of curiosity or because they want to feel like they belong in a group where all the people do this. Truth is, we don't truly know Meghan Markle. We only see what she wants to show us. So we cannot possibly make an accurate assessment. While I understand it is the right of people to express opinions and speculate, this has harmful implications. For instance, it can depict an inaccurate idea about what being narcisssistic means. And if people start to label other people narcissists more and more without having enough data, not only we will fail to recognize the actual narcissists and keep safe, but we will hurt people by assuming that they have this disorder.
I agree overall. Lay people should not diagnose. However, it may be okay to say that a person you know really well (partner, family member) has some narcissistic traits - or to suggest somebody seek help from a professional if someone close to them exhibit narcissistic tendencies.
In my experience folks who label others as "Narcissistic" usually have trivial topics of conversation tend to lack empath, do not own up to their mistakes, refuse to apologize and only enter relationships if their partner agrees to forget about her dreams and goals to become their private assistant, then wonder why every woman walk away.
I think not calling out narcissistic behavior is the problem. Once my Dad's behavior was finally labeled, I learned, "It's not me." Talk about a breakthrough in therapy. Way less people would get sucked into draining arguments with narcissistic people if they could recognize early on, "That's narcissistic. Not my problem," and toodle dee doo my way on out the conversation.
My therapist once said "How narcissistic can someone be?" after reading 15-20 long emails/letters my father has sent to me and my sister (one was addressed to our family therapist way back when) over a period of more than 10 years. I didn't expect a label at all but it honestly felt very relieving. Because I want to be a therapist myself one day I confronted him with the label and we had a very interesting discussion about it. For sure it wasn't meant as a diagnosis but after 20+ years of experience in the field he has seen so many signs that he felt comfortable with using the label after reading his monologs for hours. I can relate to it, however I'm still not a fan of any label because of individual differences. Things are way too complex to simply them as it happens with "the narcissists", "the borderlines" etc.
I completely relate to your sense of relief/validation in that moment. And it's true, what seems narcissistic on face-value could be something completely different going on. We can't really know what that is without doing a full assessment and ruling out disorders or issues that can look similarly
Wow, I have so many thoughts. As usual Ana, your content is very challenging, thought provoking, and valuable! I’m immediately reminded of Dr. Ramani’s TH-cam channel, where I recall in a video she encourages the viewer to “call a spade a spade” with narcissism, and I don’t want to misrepresent her goals here but I believe she is coming from a place of wanting to make a conversation about narcissistic abuse less taboo in our communities, so we can hold people accountable and combat the rise in narcissism that we are seeing. I completely agree with that sentiment, but I also agree with everything you are saying here about the dangers behind this. My personal approach is to point out patterns of behavior - And be open about them when I see them - with members of my community and with the individuals themselves. I think a big reason why so many people throw around the word “narcissism” nowadays is because we collectively have more access to mental health education, and overall this is a good thing. But this education needs to be a tool to help build our communities, not something to tear people down. I would really love a follow up video expanding on the ending of this one, covering your recommendations for how to confront patterns of narcissistic abuse in your community in a healthy way. For a personal example, I met a new group of friends a few months ago and got along well with everyone, until one person was “toxic by my standards” (to use lingo from your video) and attacked me verbally. What’s the healthiest way to communicate what happened to the rest of the group? Thanks again for these videos!
"But this education needs to be a tool to help build our communities, not something to tear people down." Yes ,this is exactly what happened with the word gaslighting. You start with a word describing a particularly vicious manipulation tactic, and you end up with people throwing that word in Internet disagreements to the point where a lot of people are now using it ironically for laughs. The meaning and importance of the word have been completely watered down.
Regarding the matter of diagnosis, am curious about the debate world-wild regarding DSM's ~[over-pathologizing], the experiences of [the North American] relationship with it versus the push towards the proposed change(s) of involving a ~[spectrum] approach.
You can speculate that someone is a narcissist. I get what u mean but most narcissistic abuse recover communities know that only a professional can diagnose a patient, so they’re aware that they aren’t giving a diagnosis. You can have an opinion without thinking you’re a doctor giving a diagnosis. These narc communities have way bigger issues than than imo, but I agree that calling everyone a narc is dumb. However it’s nice to have the language to describe our lives experiences
I think a trending insult word is one thing. That should stop. I have never personally been helped by any "how to spot a narcissist" yt video. NPD is statistically rare and trying to spot NPD in strangers helps no one. But labeling predators in present day for what they are can save lives. It saved mine. I had two parents with NPD and nothing made sense to me growing up. Ab*se by others was my baseline so I invited danger constantly. I read a book called The Narcissist In Your Life, which covers NPD behavior, family dynamics, and ab*se tactics. It changed everything for me. I stopped picking ab*sive people, workplaces, and partners like them. My life finally had room for safety. I don't have the privilege to attend school as I have too much PTSD. But I do attend therapy, and I accept various professionals' shared opinion that my parents both have NPD. It's been vital for me as a layperson to identify people like them (ab*sive with NPD). I'd like to clarify that I know ab*sive and NPD are not mutually inclusive. I have wonderful friends in treatment for NPD/narcissistic traits. In this comment I'm speaking about the center of the ven diagram where the two intersect. That's where I grew up.
I much prefer your take on this than Dr. Ramani's. You're very well-balanced and respectful toward different sides of the argument. I love that her videos helped introduce me to the topic of narcissism, but I'm finding myself put off by her attitude e.g. disagreeing with laypeople throwing around the label narcissist amounts to "silencing victims" and "enabling abusers" which feels quite emotionally manipulative. I've dealt with narcissists in the past, and it's very tempting to label anyone I have issues with personality-wise "narcissistic". I don't find that helpful because it doesn't allow space to actually work through personality conflicts. Seeing others as flawed but ultimately reasonable has been much more helpful to me.
I’ve personally only met and gotten to know one person who I feel I can confidentally say is a vulnerable narcissist. Gotten to know being an important factor, I don’t think you can really tell something like that unless you really know the person and have spent a lot of time with them.
Kind of have to accept the good with the bad on this one. While I recognize and agree there is a tendency nowadays for some people to call just about everyone narcissists, we must realize the value in naming something and calling it out. It helps others recognize inappropriate behaviors and deal with them or protect themselves or seek out further information. It can help define and understand exactly what they're dealing with. Yes, not everyone is a toxic narcissist but the awareness of this subject is vital because of the fact that there are so many with this issue that are totally destroying people's lives. Good people tend to think that only hurt people hurt people. But there are many good people that don't understand that some are toxic (and are beyond help) and can't figure out how to help themselves and that the best solution is no contact. Thankfully this is coming out.
One thing that made me stop going to Doctor Ramani's page, even though I liked her videos, is because I was starting to see my ex as a horrible person, and, by doing that, was failing to see my fair share of the "guilt". I started watching it because my ex said I was a narcissist and I wanted to understand what it meant and how could I be better (and to make sure I wasn't one, I still have an ego and I still wanted to be a "good person"). Nowadays I feel like it was important and empowering for me to be able to see his flaws and manipulations and passive aggressiveness, but also, grow out of it. He is still a human being, he has his traumas, his feelings, his pain, and I know that it doesn't excuse the pain he caused me, but it humanizes him, and I feel better knowing that I am on a path of forgiveness and growth, learning to not fall for the tricks (mainly love-bombing, we started dating after 30 days), but also identifying what made me fall for it, what I did wrong, how I overreacted, how I wronged him, and how can I be better, not for him, but for me and my future partners. The pain and the anger I felt were real, and it really helped me see that I was not the monster that I thought I was for not meeting his goals, but also, I couldn't shift the blame entirely. It felt cheap, wrong, and dirty to me, and settling on a place of compassion really made me forgive not only him for the pain I felt, but myself, for both the pain I caused and for falling for it. I know it is a long comment and I'm not trying to judge anyone, but I thought sharing my perspective could help other people.
@@thepcguysny Thank you for the response, but I didn't miss it. I am compassionate towards him as much as I am compassionate towards any human being. However, I don't want him on my life, not even as a memory of pain, so the only way I could start to heal was by learning to be true to myself and letting go of the pain and allowing compassion, towards him and myself, to enter. Not hating him and understanding his point of view is only dangerous if I fail to acknowledge my point of view, and not allowing compassion to exist was hindering my own nature and making me miserable. Abuse is abuse, and I'm not saying that we should forget it because we understand the reasons behind the action. I'm saying that allowing myself to understand it freed me of the guilt of falling for it and of the guilt of hating him. Indifference is the feeling I am aiming towards, and hatred wouldn't allow me to reach it. Anyways, this is my point of view of a situation that I lived, regarding my feelings and how it helped me heal from the pain caused, without creating more pain in the process.
Imo people absolutely overuse and weaponize terminology when it comes to personality disorders. People can be manipulative and abusive and still not have a personality disorder. These things aren't unique. They could just have some other issue they're not getting proper treatment for. What confuses me, is where people want kindness, to have their experiences heard and understood and to be empathized with but don't allow room for specific disorders to have the same. Which I get, I can feel conflicted about it sometimes too. But people in these spaces talk a lot about mental health issues and the compassion they deserve when it comes to abuse, destigmatizing certain experiences, feelings or diagnosis *except* it comes to this specifically. Using loaded language without consideration of what it does or means does exactly the opposite. It seems to be more often the case now that people will apply these terms to anyone they don't like or to hurt someone else. That only hurts the mental health community.
The worse thing is the narcissistic people do not seek help and they keep wounding others and i think the asian narcissistic peoples holds too much pride sometimes they even call themselves a narcissist. So i think the lay people or whomever has dealt with narcissism should label the behaviour and aware all the empaths, codependent people around the world. Because all we can do is carefully recognise the behaviour pattern and distance us from them.
This is a perfect example of why I think psychology should be taught in schools and become general knowledge (at least ve taught enough si that we learn to empathize and understand each other) because simply isolating someone won't fix the problem and you'll become just as cruel as them.
@@VanillaBean15 I Would love to see psychology, health, and well being taught in school. I realise that at present, that only rather trivialised versions of these concepts are taught, such as pop psychology and abnormal psychology (which is currently seeing the same phenomena that was observed in first year medical students now observed in teenagers), But I think if more constructive concepts were taught, such as active listening, developing healthy boundaries, and SMART goal setting, this would assist in developing a great foundation for psychologically healthy functioning, as I think developing skill-based knowledge is far more beneficial than merely acquiring lots of information, or learning the current labels that are trending.
This gets tricky because when most laypeople say someone is a narcissist, they don’t mean narcissist personality disorder (NPD), they mean the colloquial conceptualization of narcissism, which I believe actually predates the DSM conceptualization of NPD. Which makes me wonder if the APA/DSM should have called NPD something else, so as not to confuse it with the “Narcissist” used in the public lexicon. That being said, there definitely are some laypeople, many of them here on TH-cam, who actually are talking about NPD when they’re calling people narcissists, and that can be a big problem.
Honestly until I started coming across all these TH-cam videos about narcissism I thought the term just meant "someone with an exaggerated sense of self-worth or self-image", based off Greek mythology.
I believe it’s important for people to recognize public figures with florid NPD whose behavior is particularly damaging to society at large (e.g., Trump, Meghan Markle). I wish I’d known about these types earlier, because it would have saved me a lot of pain and struggle. But people shouldn’t just call anyone they don’t like a narcissist, they should know the criteria.
Evil just means “immoral.” If we don’t have the freedom to call this out, no one can be held to account. When people say the narc seemed demonic, maybe that’s because they’re just honestly describing their experience rather than trying to be mean. Most Christians believe that when humans do wrong, it’s because the devil tempted them. To say that there is some type of demonic influence on the narc doesn’t mean you hate them
You know, 'depressed' just meant 'very sad' before it was co-opted by the scientific community. Saying someone is narcissistic is different from saying that someone has NPD(Narcissistic personality disorder ).
I think we can still describe people as narcissistic without diagnosing them as having a mental disorder. It can be used in a descriptive way. I do agree that a lot of people fling that term around like it’s trendy. It’s actually pretty unimaginative too. Anyway, love your videos!
I think people who have channels dedicated to The Narcissist... ... .... are creating a witch hunt mentality towards those who have had neglectful abusive parents.
I’m so sick of everyone being called a narcissistic every time someone was wronged. You see it all the time on Reddit. Same thing with being gaslit, and everything being trauma nowadays
Ok, I’ve come back and seen this video, and I’m definitely guilty of doing some of the things that you’ve talked about, Ana. Definitely have used the word “narcissist,” when it wasn’t appropriate. Will try to take you advice about recognizing behavior but not labeling as much.
Yes, I agree not labeling anyone. The truth is if you try to discuss cluster B behaviour they feel labeled and no matter how much you say I'm not qualified to do that. What about this behaviour, this is the effect on me... 😢
Thanks, great video! I have been trying to figure out why it makes me so uncomfortable when people throw the term around with such malice. I had not heard about reverse victimisation either and now I think I get it!
I have never understood why people who seem to derive pleasure from “torch and pitchforking” anyone also seem to label themselves as deeply empathetic. It’s one thing to want to avoid those who do harm. It’s another thing entirely to foam at the mouth about hurting them and dehumanizing them. Basically, thank you for this take.
Its already in the vernacular as a general word and a diagnoses. You can't control the way language works. Many lay people study these things and know the criteria. There is a category of people who have clusters of behavior. How many ACTUAL narcissists seek diagnosis? I appreciate the informational videos on this topic, because they teach you red flags of toxic people. There are people who behave narcissistically and there are people who have a disorder. The word has value in a non diagnostic sense.
Never tried to "control the way language works," but there are very real dangers to non-professionals using diagnostic words to label others. How many laypeople appropriate medical terms and label others with those terms? There's no reason why it should be any different for psychological terms. I, too, appreciate many informational videos on this topic. Some are from mental health professionals, some are from people who have survived emotional abuse, some are from people with NPD themselves... They're all interesting and helpful, so long as they're not labeling others or spreading misinformation or stigma.
Found early on there were so many people commenting as if they were diagnosing NPD which quickly had me searching myself for expressive delineation - to use something along the lines of narcissistically-maladaptive [in one's current state of (~learned) tendencies] instead of ever saying "a narcissist". It went hand-in-hand when learning about codependency versus healthy interpersonal interactions amd boundaries while carefully utilizing that to humanize others.
8:08 - 🤔👉 .. a request for coverage of the covert and/or vulnerable spectrum of narcissistic-maladaptive or true narcissist and their family and/or peer source dynamics within which they learned.
I see both sides of the arguments, and I value your video and perspective. While I understand that there are implications and exaggerations with regards to labeling people as narcissistic, I do feel like it is very important if not crucial to know how to identify a narcissist person (person with NPD). Not with the purpose to diagnose them in the professional sense or to feel superior and tear them down, or to use it as ammunition in arguments, but with the purpose of recognising the signs early enough to get out of the danger zone. NPD can potentially render a person extremely dangerous and highly unpredictable. If we have the tools to recognize the patterns, the symptoms, we can make this non professional diagnostic in our minds and take action to stay safe. We can prevent. I think what Is very important is to really take time to understand the difference between NPD and a person with narcissistic traits. Same in the case of psychopathy/sociopathy. Black or white thinking is the essence of the problem in my opinion. Many people don't know that one can have narcissistic traits on a specific level without actually falling under the NPD diagnosis. You can be less empathetic without being narcissistic/psychopatic/sociopathic. But you cannot have any of these conditions and be empathetic. So yeah, I feel like balance is key here. Harmony. And proper knowledge.
Oof yes thank you. There is a huge difference from going to therapy with a narcissist and caring about their growth. I think when use it as a label to harm someone else. It's not a pathway for growth it's just a way of making them feel less than and yes it's also a personality disorder so it harms their life and those close to them but it's important to not demonize. People do the same thing with borderline as well and it's interesting that the armchair psychology method only fixates on cluster b as a primary way of demonizing the person not the experience with them. These are just my thoughts as someone who dated someone who had a diagnosis due to the therapy we did together. It is dangerous if untreated much like anything more likely to experience harm due to how it impacts them. It's about boundaries and approach.
Thank you for this video. After watching several videos on narcissism, I started wondering whether or not I am a narcissist myself. I was thinking my awareness about having narcissistic traits automatically meant I couldn't be one, because the textbook narcissist isn't aware of his disorder. I'm very self reflective and still struggling with my identity, potentially having asperger too. Through other videos I became aware my ex wife has also narcissistic traits, although more likely of the so-called vulnerable narcissist type. Not because of what she did when we divorced, but looking back on her behaviour from the very start of our relationship, I identified a lot of similiarities with the characteristics of this type of narcissist. Luckily her new boyfriend is a psychotherapist. 😅 But foremost thank you very much for showing me an alternative to step away from the labelling and making me realise it doesn't help me in processing my emotions, for I was secretly trying to label someone else as narcissistic in order to give myself a reason to break loose from her, while describing her as toxic is enough reason to do so. I would even take it one step further, for it isn't her fault, but mostly my own frustrating faulty perception of the relationship between her and me, that's giving me stress and that is toxic for me. The outcome nevertheless is the same. I had to (temporarily) break away, for I haven't found a way to cope with it yet.
Loved this video! Often people label someone else a narcissist or another term while having only a small sample size of experiences to draw from. I feel like rarely do we know someone well enough to make such judgments
With all due respect to Doctor Ramani, the comment section under her videos is often absolutely wild. A lot of comment not only use the term "narcissist" very loosely (at this point it's basically just a synonym of "bad"), they also have this quasi-religious Immaculate Good versus Pure Evil approach that just feels very inadequate. It's not necesarily the content creator's fault, and making videos about abuse is bound to attract a lot of people who are definitly still wounded and aggressive, but it does feel weird to read that.
I can see both sides too. I am almost 60 years old and I believe I was the target of a narc in the workplace. In all of my years I never experienced or knew what narcissism was until I wrote out her behavior and googled it because I had never seen anything like it. The woman was pathological and a shameless liar. I felt relieved to know what I was finally dealing with and the seriousness of the situation. It is so abusive that you really do start to question your own judgement. So, I am not really worried about the labeling as much as I am worried about how easily our society is starting to accept this behavior. I didn’t see too much of this twenty years ago. I have to believe the pressures of life are creating a world where people just can’t deal with life in a healthy way.
Ppl who wonder if they’re narcs can’t be narcs because the ones who are unconscious won’t allow themselves to even entertain that idea because they don’t self-reflect. And the ones who are conscious of it already know. The ones who are conscious are “higher functioning” but they are MORE dangerous, not less. The knowledge they gain in therapy helps them become more manipulative, and there’s no evidence that there is a cure for narcissism, despite what you’re saying. I know you’re well-intentioned. But just because narcissism CAN change hypothetically doesn’t mean we have evidence that treatment consistently leads to this result.
I don't understand, you say it trivializes a disorder by making it seem everyday, whereas the traits people often describe by calling someone a narcissist are relatively common. Many things are within "normal bounds", including just being an asshole in most cases. I don't see why this video is necessary because, again, that's not a full diagnosis of a disorder, it's similar to just calling someone arrogant/manipulative/charming. The main difference is that the mental health scientific community at one point co-opted the word. It's not really relevant if some of the things people think about when they think about narcissists are also diagnostic criteria because that's not the entire content of a diagnosis, and it's not attempting to be a diagnosis. For instance I can describe someone as exhibiting many of the diagnostic criteria of depression or ASD or as you said OCD. Like, I can say x seems really obsessive, keeps oddly doing some things over and over again and spends a whole lot of time doing so, and they told me they constantly think about things they don't want to think about and getting stressed out. Now these are some of the diagnostic criteria, but describing them doesn't mean I am diagnosing someone with OCD obviously. Calling someone narcissistic is similar. It's basically the same as describing someone as being very self centered and putting their needs, wants and fancies over others. You can describe someone as doing all that and that's still nowhere near an attempt at a diagnosis of a disorder. It's one thing to say someone has NPD, and another thing to say they are a narcissist.
Thank you, Ana! A long needed message. I'm a strong believer in strictly separating the casual use of a label from a professional diagnosis. Saying someone is "a narcissist" when they mean someone is just generally mean or condescending is a mistake. People often say semi-seriously they get "abuse" from their friends, co-workers or even children, but it is a general expression of the normal stresses of life. We know that difference when people say that with eyes rolling, but to use a specific clinical term is exceeding one's knowledge and that leads to all sorts of problems. I have been professionally diagnosed as having OCD and _hear this folks:_ It is NOT just constantly rearranging your salt and pepper shakers. It is a deeply engrained and very damaging disorder. I cringe when I hear this disorder that years ago, cost me friends, jobs, and an apartment, trivialized.
This video would have been more effective if you grouped ALL the diagnoses in which laypeople label others. There is more than narcissism tossed around freely. Before there was so much accessible content to narcissism, bipolar seemed to be what was used even more than narcissism is now. Hopefully this is something you’ll consider to remake this video and maybe take this one down.
Tbh I think it's more effective to focus on one label at a time, or maybe a small group, since each label has different criteria and different reasons why people throw them around. Don't see why she needs to take this one down when she worked hard on it.
I’ve had a lot of people label me as NPD to the point where it’s getting unhealthy personally I don’t think have it but it would be nice if everyone stopped labeling me as that
I personally think it's okay to say someone was behaving in a narcissist way, but that's not the same as definitively saying they are narcissists. It can be helpful for people in toxic relationships to recognise that they are experiencing narcissist abuse, but that doesn't necessarily mean that their partner is a pathological narcissist. Definitely some grey areas here I feel. I know that personally, figuring out that there was a word for the pattern of malicious behaviour that I continuously had to deal with from a housemate really helped me to understand that it wasn't my fault he was treating me that way. I don't know if he has NPD, but I know the way he treated me was because of his own fragile ego and need to invalidate others in order to feel better about himself. That is a narcissistic behaviour but doesn't necessarily mean he had NPD. But also, calling someone narcissistic to their face in lieu of actual conflict management is never a good idea. If someone is calling you a narcissist in the heat of the argument, that's weaponising the label against someone rather than addressing the actual behaviours that they are upset about.
~Yaihj😝~ I really value your video for an opportunity that it offered to me, to watch a video on the topic without being afraid that one moment a person in the video will start to blame someone being a narcissistic one! So happy to have this on TH-cam!)
Well done. Fair take from a secular perspective. From a Biblical perspective, the term narcissist should not be used as it is confusing and ambiguous. Rather, specific sins should be used and then delt with as the Bible prescribes.
I blame Shane Dawson for this outbreak of everyone being called a narcissist. Like don't you have to a degree or something to diagnosis someone as that? People just thrown it around like its nothing. Honestly, it's a worse reflection on you when you assume the absolute WORST about others.
Thank you for calling this out! This is sort of like people saying "omg I'm sooo OCD" - its unhelpful as it's trivialising the actual disorder as well by ignoring the whole criteria and the detrimental aspect of the disorder. Also unrelated but I love the herb planter you have in the background! Do you have a link for it? :3
LOL so random but I recently ordered a planter that I think is really similar (it may actually be the same one but I can’t be sure), Check out the Aerogarden ‘black harvest indoor hydroponic garden’ (It should be available on eBay, catch, Amazon) 🌸🌿😊.... and yes, as someone with neurodivergency, it’s so common for people to say things like “well isn’t everyone a little adhd” lol, it does kinda suck...but knowing that trauma is the basis for a personality disorder, it must be highly detrimental to anyone diagnosed as suffering from one, and I hope they know there are still many people out there that won’t trivialise their experiences or suffering.
So insightful and objective. You've truly captured another side of this topic that seems to be left out of most videos on narcissists. Thank you for a different point of view, this kind of closes and opens the circle.
I prefer to say toxic behaviour instead because shame can be a huge factor, hence why I've found that it's better to separate the person from their behaviour, including myself and others! I also say highly narcissistic person rather than straight out narcissist, then read somewhere that it's not right to use that term either. 😊
I guess it's a bit like labelling someone a Psycho. It's not a nice thing to call someone and shouldn't be done lightly, or before you know exactly what you're talking about.
hey ana! not sure if this is connected to the topic or not, since the video is more about normal people diagnosing others. but what do you think of self-diagnosis? i have seen quite a lot of people do this (because i'm also pretty active in the hellfire called twitter) and while i can see the pros of it labelling yourself as well as i recognize that mental health professionals aren't always available for everyone, especially those with financial issues, i personally wonder if self-diagnosis is okay. a lot of younger people seem to be prone to using these self-diagnosed mental illnessses as an excuse for unhealthy behaviors, in my experience.
I felt those comments were really reaching. I don't know where they were found, but I have never scrolled through comments that said anything demonizing people with narcissism.
"So today I'll be discussing some of the pros and cons of laypeople diagnosing others as narcissists, the implications of doing so as well as some caveats and viable alternatives such as an absolute ass nugget"
Ana I have a question; if i a person who claims to be a psychologist but hasn’t done their majors in it labels someone else as a “psycho” a wrong thing to do ?
If they claim to be a psychologist and they do not have a doctorate in psychology, that's already a legal and ethical offense in most states in the US (other countries have other regulations). And generally, the word "psycho" is a stigmatizing insult, not a diagnosis. If they are not a clinician either in or past grad school, they should not be diagnosing anyone with Antisocial Personality Disorder (the label for "psychopathy") in the first place.
This doesnt skin well though. People are averse to certain personality traits others exhibit primarily as a form of self-protection. Calling someone a narcissist is not intended as a misdiagnosis but rather noting certain character traits of self-absorption. So much so it actually affects you, the individual who has to being around said person. You being a layman doesnt change the fact that you may be dealing with a person that is so self-obsessed that it can affect you psychologically, it's up to you find a way to deal with it or move yourself away from said person. If you're out and about and run into a creepy or strange person in public, you may not be qualified to diagnose them but you sure can be weary enough to stay away from them, as intuition tells you that something doesn't add up with said person.
By this metric, King Narcissus couldn't be described as a narcissist as no qualified person ever diagnosed him. Perhaps you could appreciate that when "lay" people use the word narcissist they are describing someone's actions and/or personality as being comparable to those of Narcissus. When I say I have a sore throat, no one assumes that I have identified which strain of streptococcus I have in my respiratory tract. They take it to mean that my throat feels sore.
also the trend of narcissistic mom is becoming very dangerous. there are more and more youtube channels poping up about supposed expert in narcissistic abuse
Re: 2:33, Ana, do you realize that if you were my goddess, I would prep you so that you don't have to use jump cuts AND patrol the environment outside your residence for any possible sound interruptions that could ruin your shoot so that you don't have to complement some annonymous a-hole who wasn't realizing what he's doing? Seriously. Demand this of whoever you end up with. Or I'm gonna be sad/pissed.
Thank you for this. I'm so tired of this "I'm an empath, and everyone that's ever abused or mistreated me is a narcissist" narrative.
Also there’s a chance that some of those ‘empaths’ are narcissistic themselves. It’s similar to the “all my exes are crazy” line. They just out here on the Internet establishing their own narratives.
I agree with the last part. I dislike this video tho. I hate labels, but the delivery of the subject has hints of being subjective.
Many people who claim to be empaths are forcing their interpretations of people's feelings/emotions etc on others because they are empathic. Many people who claim to be empaths are using it as an excuse to mistreat others, deny other people's experiences, and don't have the skills to express their feelings or set boundaries or self-regulation. There also people that make a great deal of money from encouraging others to not develop essential skills that can help them live happy lives and take responsibility for their feelings and experiences.
Sometimes the people we label as narcissists are simply hurting. There is no one more self-centred as a person who has just been hit by a car and is lying in the middle of the street.
How many of us have been hurt by someone and then said one or two nasty things back in anger, because we're hurt? Most of us. That doesn't make us narcissists.
I have been in many of the narcissist survivor support groups on Facebook. There are many hurt people in there, unfortunately, those groups can be very toxic. It reaffirms their victim status, and encourages their pain to fester, destroying any possibility of healing or empowering themselves so that they can move forward. . I was also attacked by the survivors that claim to have narcissists in their lives. I said something about the studies and how narcissism is on a spectrum and that I was a little concerned by some of the "outing" of their partners, family members, etc., by name, which is also a form of abuse. I was so vehemently attacked with venom, cursed at, and verbally abused. Labeled a covert/malignant narcissist. And I said I also have bipolar and other traumas and have experienced narcissistic behaviors from others. Regardless they continued to attack me and even use my abuse and suffering as ammunition. It triggered me and almost pushed me away from wanting to support others. It was one of the most emotionally damaging experiences ever These groups encourage hurt people to become toxic, self-defeating, self-absorbed, abusive, and hateful. Many of them become very narcissistic, apathetic, caustic, and abusive themselves. Also all these "narcissistic abuse" coaches... None of them have any proper training or even trauma awareness training. They do more harm than good. I feel taking advantage of people in pain when you are not trained is unethical and cruel.
One may not have the skills to accurately diagnose someone having Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) without proper training. However one can observe potential narcissistic traits in another person. A person exhibiting narcissistic traits does not mean they have NPD, as other personality disorders exhibit some of these traits. All of us has narcissistic traits to some degree and only becomes a concern when inappropriate behaviours become dominate. Before a person can seek treatment, wish for, or control the narcissistic traits or disorder, they need to know narcissism exists. If one questions whether they have NPD with self diagnoses, maybe it is time to see your doctor or a professional. Like cancer, treatment is best when the disorder is discovered early. One should know narcissism exists, in order to deal with those who potentially have NPD in a respective and safe manner. None of us wish to fall victim to a narcissist.
I’ve never felt comfortable making a diagnosis, but I gotta say, after watching every Dr. Ramani videos and learning how to survive living with a narcissistic parent, my life got a whole lot better and the years of abuse and gaslighting didn’t weigh on me and continue to make me think I was crazy. She’s my savior🙌🏽
I love her stuff🤍
She’s wonderful, I agree😊
@@M.j.7 I think you’re missing the point of the video. In an example that’s not mental health, a dietitian can put out informative videos about how to eat healthy or recognize if there are trigger foods in your diet, but that comes at the risk of people taking that information and starting to give information about dietetics and nutrition without formal training. Ana isn’t criticizing the doctors, she’s pointing out the harm that can be caused by laypeople taking information presented by the doctors and presenting it as if they are now the experts because they feel confident from the snippets of information they got on TH-cam.
There is also the phenomenon where people gather and speculate online about how public figures are narcissistic, often without enough data to make an accurate assessment. For example, Meghan Markle. The only data people have are her public appearances, what media says about her, or other 3d party information. People oberanalyze her body language and speculate heavily on this basis. For instance, I've seen a specific video yesterday about how the fact that Megan and Harry hold hands with interlocked fingers and how this shows that Meghan is a narcissist that wants to control Harry. Or how the fact that she always touches his hand while he speaks shows she's controlling. These are all inaccurate and harmful assumptions that people do just for fun or out of curiosity or because they want to feel like they belong in a group where all the people do this.
Truth is, we don't truly know Meghan Markle. We only see what she wants to show us. So we cannot possibly make an accurate assessment.
While I understand it is the right of people to express opinions and speculate, this has harmful implications. For instance, it can depict an inaccurate idea about what being narcisssistic means. And if people start to label other people narcissists more and more without having enough data, not only we will fail to recognize the actual narcissists and keep safe, but we will hurt people by assuming that they have this disorder.
I agree overall. Lay people should not diagnose. However, it may be okay to say that a person you know really well (partner, family member) has some narcissistic traits - or to suggest somebody seek help from a professional if someone close to them exhibit narcissistic tendencies.
In my experience folks who label others as "Narcissistic" usually have trivial topics of conversation tend to lack empath, do not own up to their mistakes, refuse to apologize and only enter relationships if their partner agrees to forget about her dreams and goals to become their private assistant, then wonder why every woman walk away.
I think not calling out narcissistic behavior is the problem. Once my Dad's behavior was finally labeled, I learned, "It's not me." Talk about a breakthrough in therapy.
Way less people would get sucked into draining arguments with narcissistic people if they could recognize early on, "That's narcissistic. Not my problem," and toodle dee doo my way on out the conversation.
My therapist once said "How narcissistic can someone be?" after reading 15-20 long emails/letters my father has sent to me and my sister (one was addressed to our family therapist way back when) over a period of more than 10 years. I didn't expect a label at all but it honestly felt very relieving. Because I want to be a therapist myself one day I confronted him with the label and we had a very interesting discussion about it. For sure it wasn't meant as a diagnosis but after 20+ years of experience in the field he has seen so many signs that he felt comfortable with using the label after reading his monologs for hours. I can relate to it, however I'm still not a fan of any label because of individual differences. Things are way too complex to simply them as it happens with "the narcissists", "the borderlines" etc.
I completely relate to your sense of relief/validation in that moment. And it's true, what seems narcissistic on face-value could be something completely different going on. We can't really know what that is without doing a full assessment and ruling out disorders or issues that can look similarly
Wow, I have so many thoughts. As usual Ana, your content is very challenging, thought provoking, and valuable! I’m immediately reminded of Dr. Ramani’s TH-cam channel, where I recall in a video she encourages the viewer to “call a spade a spade” with narcissism, and I don’t want to misrepresent her goals here but I believe she is coming from a place of wanting to make a conversation about narcissistic abuse less taboo in our communities, so we can hold people accountable and combat the rise in narcissism that we are seeing. I completely agree with that sentiment, but I also agree with everything you are saying here about the dangers behind this. My personal approach is to point out patterns of behavior - And be open about them when I see them - with members of my community and with the individuals themselves. I think a big reason why so many people throw around the word “narcissism” nowadays is because we collectively have more access to mental health education, and overall this is a good thing. But this education needs to be a tool to help build our communities, not something to tear people down. I would really love a follow up video expanding on the ending of this one, covering your recommendations for how to confront patterns of narcissistic abuse in your community in a healthy way. For a personal example, I met a new group of friends a few months ago and got along well with everyone, until one person was “toxic by my standards” (to use lingo from your video) and attacked me verbally. What’s the healthiest way to communicate what happened to the rest of the group? Thanks again for these videos!
"But this education needs to be a tool to help build our communities, not something to tear people down."
Yes ,this is exactly what happened with the word gaslighting. You start with a word describing a particularly vicious manipulation tactic, and you end up with people throwing that word in Internet disagreements to the point where a lot of people are now using it ironically for laughs. The meaning and importance of the word have been completely watered down.
Really well said.
No one that isn't qualified should diagnose anything or anyone. Self diagnosis can be dangerous and is not rightful
Regarding the matter of diagnosis, am curious about the debate world-wild regarding DSM's ~[over-pathologizing], the experiences of [the North American] relationship with it versus the push towards the proposed change(s) of involving a ~[spectrum] approach.
She didn't talk about self diagnosis, she was talking about misdiagnosing others
You can speculate that someone is a narcissist. I get what u mean but most narcissistic abuse recover communities know that only a professional can diagnose a patient, so they’re aware that they aren’t giving a diagnosis. You can have an opinion without thinking you’re a doctor giving a diagnosis. These narc communities have way bigger issues than than imo, but I agree that calling everyone a narc is dumb. However it’s nice to have the language to describe our lives experiences
Thats a lie alot of people in these communities believe they have the ability to diagnose others.
You think this person is lying?
I think a trending insult word is one thing. That should stop. I have never personally been helped by any "how to spot a narcissist" yt video. NPD is statistically rare and trying to spot NPD in strangers helps no one.
But labeling predators in present day for what they are can save lives. It saved mine. I had two parents with NPD and nothing made sense to me growing up. Ab*se by others was my baseline so I invited danger constantly. I read a book called The Narcissist In Your Life, which covers NPD behavior, family dynamics, and ab*se tactics. It changed everything for me. I stopped picking ab*sive people, workplaces, and partners like them. My life finally had room for safety.
I don't have the privilege to attend school as I have too much PTSD. But I do attend therapy, and I accept various professionals' shared opinion that my parents both have NPD. It's been vital for me as a layperson to identify people like them (ab*sive with NPD).
I'd like to clarify that I know ab*sive and NPD are not mutually inclusive. I have wonderful friends in treatment for NPD/narcissistic traits. In this comment I'm speaking about the center of the ven diagram where the two intersect. That's where I grew up.
I much prefer your take on this than Dr. Ramani's. You're very well-balanced and respectful toward different sides of the argument. I love that her videos helped introduce me to the topic of narcissism, but I'm finding myself put off by her attitude e.g. disagreeing with laypeople throwing around the label narcissist amounts to "silencing victims" and "enabling abusers" which feels quite emotionally manipulative.
I've dealt with narcissists in the past, and it's very tempting to label anyone I have issues with personality-wise "narcissistic". I don't find that helpful because it doesn't allow space to actually work through personality conflicts. Seeing others as flawed but ultimately reasonable has been much more helpful to me.
I’ve personally only met and gotten to know one person who I feel I can confidentally say is a vulnerable narcissist. Gotten to know being an important factor, I don’t think you can really tell something like that unless you really know the person and have spent a lot of time with them.
Kind of have to accept the good with the bad on this one. While I recognize and agree there is a tendency nowadays for some people to call just about everyone narcissists, we must realize the value in naming something and calling it out.
It helps others recognize inappropriate behaviors and deal with them or protect themselves or seek out further information. It can help define and understand exactly what they're dealing with. Yes, not everyone is a toxic narcissist but the awareness of this subject is vital because of the fact that there are so many with this issue that are totally destroying people's lives.
Good people tend to think that only hurt people hurt people. But there are many good people that don't understand that some are toxic (and are beyond help) and can't figure out how to help themselves and that the best solution is no contact. Thankfully this is coming out.
One thing that made me stop going to Doctor Ramani's page, even though I liked her videos, is because I was starting to see my ex as a horrible person, and, by doing that, was failing to see my fair share of the "guilt". I started watching it because my ex said I was a narcissist and I wanted to understand what it meant and how could I be better (and to make sure I wasn't one, I still have an ego and I still wanted to be a "good person"). Nowadays I feel like it was important and empowering for me to be able to see his flaws and manipulations and passive aggressiveness, but also, grow out of it. He is still a human being, he has his traumas, his feelings, his pain, and I know that it doesn't excuse the pain he caused me, but it humanizes him, and I feel better knowing that I am on a path of forgiveness and growth, learning to not fall for the tricks (mainly love-bombing, we started dating after 30 days), but also identifying what made me fall for it, what I did wrong, how I overreacted, how I wronged him, and how can I be better, not for him, but for me and my future partners. The pain and the anger I felt were real, and it really helped me see that I was not the monster that I thought I was for not meeting his goals, but also, I couldn't shift the blame entirely. It felt cheap, wrong, and dirty to me, and settling on a place of compassion really made me forgive not only him for the pain I felt, but myself, for both the pain I caused and for falling for it. I know it is a long comment and I'm not trying to judge anyone, but I thought sharing my perspective could help other people.
@@thepcguysny Thank you for the response, but I didn't miss it. I am compassionate towards him as much as I am compassionate towards any human being. However, I don't want him on my life, not even as a memory of pain, so the only way I could start to heal was by learning to be true to myself and letting go of the pain and allowing compassion, towards him and myself, to enter. Not hating him and understanding his point of view is only dangerous if I fail to acknowledge my point of view, and not allowing compassion to exist was hindering my own nature and making me miserable. Abuse is abuse, and I'm not saying that we should forget it because we understand the reasons behind the action. I'm saying that allowing myself to understand it freed me of the guilt of falling for it and of the guilt of hating him. Indifference is the feeling I am aiming towards, and hatred wouldn't allow me to reach it. Anyways, this is my point of view of a situation that I lived, regarding my feelings and how it helped me heal from the pain caused, without creating more pain in the process.
I do believe my partner is a narcissist however i don't think I'm an empath nor do i believe all of my exs are narcissists..
Many people who date one person with a Pd have dated one in the past. I don’t know why she’s trying to make the argument that this doesn’t happen
Imo people absolutely overuse and weaponize terminology when it comes to personality disorders. People can be manipulative and abusive and still not have a personality disorder. These things aren't unique. They could just have some other issue they're not getting proper treatment for. What confuses me, is where people want kindness, to have their experiences heard and understood and to be empathized with but don't allow room for specific disorders to have the same. Which I get, I can feel conflicted about it sometimes too. But people in these spaces talk a lot about mental health issues and the compassion they deserve when it comes to abuse, destigmatizing certain experiences, feelings or diagnosis *except* it comes to this specifically. Using loaded language without consideration of what it does or means does exactly the opposite. It seems to be more often the case now that people will apply these terms to anyone they don't like or to hurt someone else. That only hurts the mental health community.
The worse thing is the narcissistic people do not seek help and they keep wounding others and i think the asian narcissistic peoples holds too much pride sometimes they even call themselves a narcissist. So i think the lay people or whomever has dealt with narcissism should label the behaviour and aware all the empaths, codependent people around the world. Because all we can do is carefully recognise the behaviour pattern and distance us from them.
This is a perfect example of why I think psychology should be taught in schools and become general knowledge (at least ve taught enough si that we learn to empathize and understand each other) because simply isolating someone won't fix the problem and you'll become just as cruel as them.
@@VanillaBean15 I Would love to see psychology, health, and well being taught in school. I realise that at present, that only rather trivialised versions of these concepts are taught, such as pop psychology and abnormal psychology (which is currently seeing the same phenomena that was observed in first year medical students now observed in teenagers), But I think if more constructive concepts were taught, such as active listening, developing healthy boundaries, and SMART goal setting, this would assist in developing a great foundation for psychologically healthy functioning, as I think developing skill-based knowledge is far more beneficial than merely acquiring lots of information, or learning the current labels that are trending.
I love you, thank you for this!!! You're so smart.
This gets tricky because when most laypeople say someone is a narcissist, they don’t mean narcissist personality disorder (NPD), they mean the colloquial conceptualization of narcissism, which I believe actually predates the DSM conceptualization of NPD. Which makes me wonder if the APA/DSM should have called NPD something else, so as not to confuse it with the “Narcissist” used in the public lexicon.
That being said, there definitely are some laypeople, many of them here on TH-cam, who actually are talking about NPD when they’re calling people narcissists, and that can be a big problem.
the issue here is being able to differentiate between those two types of people you mentioned.
Honestly until I started coming across all these TH-cam videos about narcissism I thought the term just meant "someone with an exaggerated sense of self-worth or self-image", based off Greek mythology.
I think a lot of people think narcissism is vanity. There's overlap there, but it's not the same.
I dunno, there is a TON of narcissism in the US especially. Seems like it's encouraged even. Thanks for the video though.
exactly. it creates an echo chamber of narcissists. whether or not we are qualified to diagnose someone.
I believe it’s important for people to recognize public figures with florid NPD whose behavior is particularly damaging to society at large (e.g., Trump, Meghan Markle). I wish I’d known about these types earlier, because it would have saved me a lot of pain and struggle. But people shouldn’t just call anyone they don’t like a narcissist, they should know the criteria.
Evil just means “immoral.” If we don’t have the freedom to call this out, no one can be held to account. When people say the narc seemed demonic, maybe that’s because they’re just honestly describing their experience rather than trying to be mean. Most Christians believe that when humans do wrong, it’s because the devil tempted them. To say that there is some type of demonic influence on the narc doesn’t mean you hate them
You know, 'depressed' just meant 'very sad' before it was co-opted by the scientific community. Saying someone is narcissistic is different from saying that someone has NPD(Narcissistic personality disorder
).
You're absolutely right, this is just gatekeeping language.
A lot of this feels like a step backward, i do prefer Dr Ramani’s view
I think we can still describe people as narcissistic without diagnosing them as having a mental disorder. It can be used in a descriptive way. I do agree that a lot of people fling that term around like it’s trendy. It’s actually pretty unimaginative too. Anyway, love your videos!
I think people who have channels dedicated to The Narcissist... ... .... are creating a witch hunt mentality towards those who have had neglectful abusive parents.
thanks for this video. the narcisism shit on youtube has gotten a tad too extreme. i was labeling everybody as a narcisist myself, wrongly, of course
I’m so sick of everyone being called a narcissistic every time someone was wronged. You see it all the time on Reddit. Same thing with being gaslit, and everything being trauma nowadays
Ok, I’ve come back and seen this video, and I’m definitely guilty of doing some of the things that you’ve talked about, Ana. Definitely have used the word “narcissist,” when it wasn’t appropriate.
Will try to take you advice about recognizing behavior but not labeling as much.
Yes, I agree not labeling anyone. The truth is if you try to discuss cluster B behaviour they feel labeled and no matter how much you say I'm not qualified to do that. What about this behaviour, this is the effect on me... 😢
Thanks, great video! I have been trying to figure out why it makes me so uncomfortable when people throw the term around with such malice.
I had not heard about reverse victimisation either and now I think I get it!
I have never understood why people who seem to derive pleasure from “torch and pitchforking” anyone also seem to label themselves as deeply empathetic.
It’s one thing to want to avoid those who do harm. It’s another thing entirely to foam at the mouth about hurting them and dehumanizing them. Basically, thank you for this take.
I agree with everything except your last statement
Thanks Ana! My partner and I love watching your vids. Hope your day is lovely!
Its already in the vernacular as a general word and a diagnoses. You can't control the way language works. Many lay people study these things and know the criteria. There is a category of people who have clusters of behavior. How many ACTUAL narcissists seek diagnosis? I appreciate the informational videos on this topic, because they teach you red flags of toxic people. There are people who behave narcissistically and there are people who have a disorder. The word has value in a non diagnostic sense.
Never tried to "control the way language works," but there are very real dangers to non-professionals using diagnostic words to label others. How many laypeople appropriate medical terms and label others with those terms? There's no reason why it should be any different for psychological terms.
I, too, appreciate many informational videos on this topic. Some are from mental health professionals, some are from people who have survived emotional abuse, some are from people with NPD themselves... They're all interesting and helpful, so long as they're not labeling others or spreading misinformation or stigma.
Found early on there were so many people commenting as if they were diagnosing NPD which quickly had me searching myself for expressive delineation - to use something along the lines of narcissistically-maladaptive [in one's current state of (~learned) tendencies] instead of ever saying "a narcissist". It went hand-in-hand when learning about codependency versus healthy interpersonal interactions amd boundaries while carefully utilizing that to humanize others.
@@That_Handle I like to use "narcissistic" or "narcissistic behavior"
You are so articulate. Love your videos
8:08 - 🤔👉 .. a request for coverage of the covert and/or vulnerable spectrum of narcissistic-maladaptive or true narcissist and their family and/or peer source dynamics within which they learned.
The problem with the labelling of everyone else as a narcissist is it means the “victim” doesn’t have to own their own issues.
Interesting, TH-cam helped me think I could identify narcissism, but I see the issue of "saying" I can identify it. Great video!
I see both sides of the arguments, and I value your video and perspective. While I understand that there are implications and exaggerations with regards to labeling people as narcissistic, I do feel like it is very important if not crucial to know how to identify a narcissist person (person with NPD). Not with the purpose to diagnose them in the professional sense or to feel superior and tear them down, or to use it as ammunition in arguments, but with the purpose of recognising the signs early enough to get out of the danger zone. NPD can potentially render a person extremely dangerous and highly unpredictable. If we have the tools to recognize the patterns, the symptoms, we can make this non professional diagnostic in our minds and take action to stay safe.
We can prevent.
I think what Is very important is to really take time to understand the difference between NPD and a person with narcissistic traits. Same in the case of psychopathy/sociopathy. Black or white thinking is the essence of the problem in my opinion. Many people don't know that one can have narcissistic traits on a specific level without actually falling under the NPD diagnosis.
You can be less empathetic without being narcissistic/psychopatic/sociopathic. But you cannot have any of these conditions and be empathetic.
So yeah, I feel like balance is key here. Harmony. And proper knowledge.
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Oof yes thank you. There is a huge difference from going to therapy with a narcissist and caring about their growth. I think when use it as a label to harm someone else. It's not a pathway for growth it's just a way of making them feel less than and yes it's also a personality disorder so it harms their life and those close to them but it's important to not demonize. People do the same thing with borderline as well and it's interesting that the armchair psychology method only fixates on cluster b as a primary way of demonizing the person not the experience with them. These are just my thoughts as someone who dated someone who had a diagnosis due to the therapy we did together. It is dangerous if untreated much like anything more likely to experience harm due to how it impacts them. It's about boundaries and approach.
Thank you for this video. After watching several videos on narcissism, I started wondering whether or not I am a narcissist myself. I was thinking my awareness about having narcissistic traits automatically meant I couldn't be one, because the textbook narcissist isn't aware of his disorder. I'm very self reflective and still struggling with my identity, potentially having asperger too.
Through other videos I became aware my ex wife has also narcissistic traits, although more likely of the so-called vulnerable narcissist type. Not because of what she did when we divorced, but looking back on her behaviour from the very start of our relationship, I identified a lot of similiarities with the characteristics of this type of narcissist. Luckily her new boyfriend is a psychotherapist. 😅
But foremost thank you very much for showing me an alternative to step away from the labelling and making me realise it doesn't help me in processing my emotions, for I was secretly trying to label someone else as narcissistic in order to give myself a reason to break loose from her, while describing her as toxic is enough reason to do so. I would even take it one step further, for it isn't her fault, but mostly my own frustrating faulty perception of the relationship between her and me, that's giving me stress and that is toxic for me. The outcome nevertheless is the same. I had to (temporarily) break away, for I haven't found a way to cope with it yet.
Loved this video! Often people label someone else a narcissist or another term while having only a small sample size of experiences to draw from. I feel like rarely do we know someone well enough to make such judgments
I can see both sides.
I do often put a lot of stakes into DoctorRamani, who does seem to be more on “ok with saying it,” side of the conversation
With all due respect to Doctor Ramani, the comment section under her videos is often absolutely wild. A lot of comment not only use the term "narcissist" very loosely (at this point it's basically just a synonym of "bad"), they also have this quasi-religious Immaculate Good versus Pure Evil approach that just feels very inadequate. It's not necesarily the content creator's fault, and making videos about abuse is bound to attract a lot of people who are definitly still wounded and aggressive, but it does feel weird to read that.
I can see both sides too. I am almost 60 years old and I believe I was the target of a narc in the workplace. In all of my years I never experienced or knew what narcissism was until I wrote out her behavior and googled it because I had never seen anything like it. The woman was pathological and a shameless liar. I felt relieved to know what I was finally dealing with and the seriousness of the situation. It is so abusive that you really do start to question your own judgement. So, I am not really worried about the labeling as much as I am worried about how easily our society is starting to accept this behavior. I didn’t see too much of this twenty years ago. I have to believe the pressures of life are creating a world where people just can’t deal with life in a healthy way.
thank you dr.! important important insights ❤
Ppl who wonder if they’re narcs can’t be narcs because the ones who are unconscious won’t allow themselves to even entertain that idea because they don’t self-reflect. And the ones who are conscious of it already know. The ones who are conscious are “higher functioning” but they are MORE dangerous, not less. The knowledge they gain in therapy helps them become more manipulative, and there’s no evidence that there is a cure for narcissism, despite what you’re saying. I know you’re well-intentioned. But just because narcissism CAN change hypothetically doesn’t mean we have evidence that treatment consistently leads to this result.
I don't understand, you say it trivializes a disorder by making it seem everyday, whereas the traits people often describe by calling someone a narcissist are relatively common. Many things are within "normal bounds", including just being an asshole in most cases. I don't see why this video is necessary because, again, that's not a full diagnosis of a disorder, it's similar to just calling someone arrogant/manipulative/charming. The main difference is that the mental health scientific community at one point co-opted the word. It's not really relevant if some of the things people think about when they think about narcissists are also diagnostic criteria because that's not the entire content of a diagnosis, and it's not attempting to be a diagnosis. For instance I can describe someone as exhibiting many of the diagnostic criteria of depression or ASD or as you said OCD. Like, I can say x seems really obsessive, keeps oddly doing some things over and over again and spends a whole lot of time doing so, and they told me they constantly think about things they don't want to think about and getting stressed out. Now these are some of the diagnostic criteria, but describing them doesn't mean I am diagnosing someone with OCD obviously. Calling someone narcissistic is similar. It's basically the same as describing someone as being very self centered and putting their needs, wants and fancies over others. You can describe someone as doing all that and that's still nowhere near an attempt at a diagnosis of a disorder. It's one thing to say someone has NPD, and another thing to say they are a narcissist.
Thank you, Ana! A long needed message. I'm a strong believer in strictly separating the casual use of a label from a professional diagnosis. Saying someone is "a narcissist" when they mean someone is just generally mean or condescending is a mistake. People often say semi-seriously they get "abuse" from their friends, co-workers or even children, but it is a general expression of the normal stresses of life. We know that difference when people say that with eyes rolling, but to use a specific clinical term is exceeding one's knowledge and that leads to all sorts of problems. I have been professionally diagnosed as having OCD and _hear this folks:_ It is NOT just constantly rearranging your salt and pepper shakers. It is a deeply engrained and very damaging disorder. I cringe when I hear this disorder that years ago, cost me friends, jobs, and an apartment, trivialized.
Not wanting to start a feud here, but if you see something about therapeutic matters stated by someone online named _Anna,_ check it out with _Ana._
This video would have been more effective if you grouped ALL the diagnoses in which laypeople label others. There is more than narcissism tossed around freely. Before there was so much accessible content to narcissism, bipolar seemed to be what was used even more than narcissism is now. Hopefully this is something you’ll consider to remake this video and maybe take this one down.
Tbh I think it's more effective to focus on one label at a time, or maybe a small group, since each label has different criteria and different reasons why people throw them around. Don't see why she needs to take this one down when she worked hard on it.
I’ve had a lot of people label me as NPD to the point where it’s getting unhealthy personally I don’t think have it but it would be nice if everyone stopped labeling me as that
Stop caring what they think
Some social media platforms are now banning the word narcissist altogether
which ones?, I see it all the time..
@@anareginacoronado1147 I once used the word “narcissist” on Instagram and received a warning.
@@Michael_RareZebra ohh ok, I haven't used that word yet on Instagram.
I personally think it's okay to say someone was behaving in a narcissist way, but that's not the same as definitively saying they are narcissists. It can be helpful for people in toxic relationships to recognise that they are experiencing narcissist abuse, but that doesn't necessarily mean that their partner is a pathological narcissist. Definitely some grey areas here I feel. I know that personally, figuring out that there was a word for the pattern of malicious behaviour that I continuously had to deal with from a housemate really helped me to understand that it wasn't my fault he was treating me that way. I don't know if he has NPD, but I know the way he treated me was because of his own fragile ego and need to invalidate others in order to feel better about himself. That is a narcissistic behaviour but doesn't necessarily
mean he had NPD. But also, calling someone narcissistic to their face in lieu of actual conflict management is never a good idea. If someone is calling you a narcissist in the heat of the argument, that's weaponising the label against someone rather than addressing the actual behaviours that they are upset about.
~Yaihj😝~ I really value your video for an opportunity that it offered to me, to watch a video on the topic without being afraid that one moment a person in the video will start to blame someone being a narcissistic one! So happy to have this on TH-cam!)
I didn’t want to watch this video at first, so I knew that was a sign I should. Lots of solid nuance here to ponder, glad I did watch!
The fact is my sister and her husband are narcissists. But hardly anyone else I know.
Well done. Fair take from a secular perspective. From a Biblical perspective, the term narcissist should not be used as it is confusing and ambiguous. Rather, specific sins should be used and then delt with as the Bible prescribes.
Hi! Could you make a video on Scream Queens? Totally in theme for Halloween!
We have to understand that people get hurt and build maladaptive personalities as a result. Hurt people hurt people.
Doc, that's why I wanted you to go over the biopsychosocial model. To show how all the elements in our life can contribute to our development.
I blame Shane Dawson for this outbreak of everyone being called a narcissist. Like don't you have to a degree or something to diagnosis someone as that? People just thrown it around like its nothing. Honestly, it's a worse reflection on you when you assume the absolute WORST about others.
Where does the wave-particle collapse and become a photon in the photo-transduction cascade? 11-cis-Retinal or before? Maybe in the atoms of cornea?
Thank you for calling this out! This is sort of like people saying "omg I'm sooo OCD" - its unhelpful as it's trivialising the actual disorder as well by ignoring the whole criteria and the detrimental aspect of the disorder. Also unrelated but I love the herb planter you have in the background! Do you have a link for it? :3
LOL so random but I recently ordered a planter that I think is really similar (it may actually be the same one but I can’t be sure), Check out the Aerogarden ‘black harvest indoor hydroponic garden’ (It should be available on eBay, catch, Amazon) 🌸🌿😊.... and yes, as someone with neurodivergency, it’s so common for people to say things like “well isn’t everyone a little adhd” lol, it does kinda suck...but knowing that trauma is the basis for a personality disorder, it must be highly detrimental to anyone diagnosed as suffering from one, and I hope they know there are still many people out there that won’t trivialise their experiences or suffering.
So insightful and objective. You've truly captured another side of this topic that seems to be left out of most videos on narcissists. Thank you for a different point of view, this kind of closes and opens the circle.
And also stop calling everyone toxic.
Calling people toxic is cringe
Right? Toxic is a good optional word for it ..
Saying Cringe is the real “cringe” thing to do
@Bruce apparently we can't call them a person with narcissistic behavior. *eye roll*
I prefer to say toxic behaviour instead because shame can be a huge factor, hence why I've found that it's better to separate the person from their behaviour, including myself and others!
I also say highly narcissistic person rather than straight out narcissist, then read somewhere that it's not right to use that term either. 😊
I guess it's a bit like labelling someone a Psycho. It's not a nice thing to call someone and shouldn't be done lightly, or before you know exactly what you're talking about.
hey ana! not sure if this is connected to the topic or not, since the video is more about normal people diagnosing others. but what do you think of self-diagnosis?
i have seen quite a lot of people do this (because i'm also pretty active in the hellfire called twitter) and while i can see the pros of it labelling yourself as well as i recognize that mental health professionals aren't always available for everyone, especially those with financial issues, i personally wonder if self-diagnosis is okay. a lot of younger people seem to be prone to using these self-diagnosed mental illnessses as an excuse for unhealthy behaviors, in my experience.
the comments u showed too, jesus christ yeah those are awful but it's basically 99% of the comments u see on these narcisist videos
I felt those comments were really reaching. I don't know where they were found, but I have never scrolled through comments that said anything demonizing people with narcissism.
"So today I'll be discussing some of the pros and cons of laypeople diagnosing others as narcissists, the implications of doing so as well as some caveats and viable alternatives such as an absolute ass nugget"
Ana I have a question; if i a person who claims to be a psychologist but hasn’t done their majors in it labels someone else as a “psycho” a wrong thing to do ?
If they claim to be a psychologist and they do not have a doctorate in psychology, that's already a legal and ethical offense in most states in the US (other countries have other regulations). And generally, the word "psycho" is a stigmatizing insult, not a diagnosis. If they are not a clinician either in or past grad school, they should not be diagnosing anyone with Antisocial Personality Disorder (the label for "psychopathy") in the first place.
Ooh one of the first viewers
This doesnt skin well though. People are averse to certain personality traits others exhibit primarily as a form of self-protection. Calling someone a narcissist is not intended as a misdiagnosis but rather noting certain character traits of self-absorption. So much so it actually affects you, the individual who has to being around said person.
You being a layman doesnt change the fact that you may be dealing with a person that is so self-obsessed that it can affect you psychologically, it's up to you find a way to deal with it or move yourself away from said person.
If you're out and about and run into a creepy or strange person in public, you may not be qualified to diagnose them but you sure can be weary enough to stay away from them, as intuition tells you that something doesn't add up with said person.
By this metric, King Narcissus couldn't be described as a narcissist as no qualified person ever diagnosed him. Perhaps you could appreciate that when "lay" people use the word narcissist they are describing someone's actions and/or personality as being comparable to those of Narcissus.
When I say I have a sore throat, no one assumes that I have identified which strain of streptococcus I have in my respiratory tract. They take it to mean that my throat feels sore.
My guess is >50% of people who label others as narcissist, are more likely the narcissist, but now I'm confused as to what side I'm on!
Exactly I truly feel like people nowadays throw that label narcissistic and psychopaths wayyy too much without any proofs and evidence in general.
thank you thank you!
also the trend of narcissistic mom is becoming very dangerous. there are more and more youtube channels poping up about supposed expert in narcissistic abuse
gotta post this for Richard Grannon..lol
ref th-cam.com/video/-WVLZXLyO-M/w-d-xo.html 1.6m views
@@melissacostin4464 Are you suggesting he’s a covert narc? If so, I agree.
Te vídeo TH-cam needed 🎉🎉🎉
New video yayy
Its not lupus
Yuhu hit the subscribe button
What is a lay person
A normal person with no expertise in the subject. You could have googled this though lol
@@petalchild stay mad
You seemed a bit antagonistic here.. with the whole free speech and "people on tiktok" thing, I dont see anyone trying to take your speech away lol
This video needs to go viral ✨
Re: 2:33, Ana, do you realize that if you were my goddess, I would prep you so that you don't have to use jump cuts AND patrol the environment outside your residence for any possible sound interruptions that could ruin your shoot so that you don't have to complement some annonymous a-hole who wasn't realizing what he's doing? Seriously. Demand this of whoever you end up with. Or I'm gonna be sad/pissed.
This is a certified hood classic
Put down the rap music suburbia