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THE RISE, FALL AND RESURGENCE OF GE'S DASH-8 LOCOMOTIVES
Hashtags: #Trains21 #SeriousRailroading
![[GL][T-155] GE DASH-8 Decline, Resurgence and the Locomotive Leasing Craze of 2018 | Trains 21](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/07Fss2bJv38/mqdefault.jpg)
![[GL][T-155] GE DASH-8 Decline, Resurgence and the Locomotive Leasing Craze of 2018 | Trains 21](/img/tr.png)
There is one fact most fan don't realize. The DASH 8-40B is the most powerful 4-axle unit rated at 4,000 hp. To date, no other 4-axle has met this goal!
Is high power on four axles really that much of an advantage, for freight work at any rate? It's all about traction effort and adhesion, isn't it
@@AndreiTupolev Yes, it does come down to that. However I was making a historic point.
There is a reason why there hasn't been anything higher in power. The 4,000 HP is good for high speed intermodal freight (pig trains, doublestack etc) but not good for switching. The EMD GP60 was rated at 3800 HP but again these were far better pulling intermodal freight at rail speed. I do know that the 3,000 HP GP40-2 only puts down 2,100 HP to the rails below about 25ish MPH and this is due to wheel adhesion to the rail. In the end, railroads found that 6 axle locomotives were better at this and that is why we no longer see 4 axle road switchers on the catalog for either EMD or GE.
@@silicon212 Another reason why GE built them was to compete with EMD GP60 series. You're right that they are still good at high speed manifest or unit intermodal trains. As for yard work, they can handle heavy loads, but at the costs of risking damaging their traction motors - unless they were regeared for switching duties.
Amtrak's P42's at 4250 horsepower beat out the B40-8.
RJ Corman just bought 11 SD 70 M units from NS
@11:48 FCCA in Perú... But a lot of old dash 7 and dash 8 GE units have gone to Brazil.... Those guys are insane with their rebuilds.
We have a lot of GE U26C here in New Zealand. Rebuilt so many times. Now 50 years old . I bet that the Chinese shit boxes that have replaced them don't last this long.
Ok AC EXCELLENT. Professor 🎄
Thanks DJ
It's pretty interesting how GE changed strategies toward the used/remanufactured market, as previously they seemed to be pretty averse to much of any secondary market for the Dash 7 and earlier models. Did the Dash 8 line become that much better or did the Dash 8 market dominance (and better finance arm than GM?) create a favorable situation?
How do does this compare to EMDs produced during the same period? That would be mostly the 710-powered 60/70 series, no?
I think what changed was the market. Since PSR every Class 1 railroad has changed their locomotive buying strategy. I talked about this in my Canadian Pacific's SD70ACU video about two years ago. Tempus fugit!
Dash 8’s may look like shit covered in rust, there are ones out there that still have plenty of life left.
Great video
There are no ex CNW or ex BNSF units operating on CN. They've all been stored or scrapped.
Most are gone, but a few C40-8s still toil in ore service on the Iron Range here in Minnesota
didnt CSX buy out Pan AM?
Yes, the dash 8s pan am has are former csx as well, so their now on csx a second time
Be no surprise if CSX dumps them again.
@@onrr1726Dumps them forever?
some GE C39-8 went to Peru, 8 of them were rebuilt to C39-8P, to fit in the central railroad, some of them still keep their original shape, at least 12 of those arrived here to Peru, all of them from NS, now these days FCCA bought a couple CSX engines C40-8Ws and just this October, arrived 5 C41-8W locomotives from UP
Thanks for sharing that info
I remember working on all sorts of different Dash 8s. They were all rattle traps. It seemed like older conventional cab models pulled better than the wide cabs. The 4 axle units were pretty decent engines, but the wide cabs were junk. They took forever to load and were noisy. As far as I was concerned, the more that were scrapped, the better off the railroad workers were.
😂😅😂😅
Excellent video AC. Over 50 people died horrible deaths in that explosion and fire at Lac Megantic, Que.
Yes, that was very tragic. Thanks for watching.
CMQ doesn’t exist anymore I think the CP bought their lines.
I know, this was a remixed video of 2019.
Keep the videos coming AC. You’re a Railfan Content Machine. Thanks! 👍
Thanks Ken. I will do!
please make a video with differences between DASH 7, 8 and 9
Already have.. Sort of.
I would have doubts that the dash 8's will be on PanAm / Guilford vary long now that CSX owns them. MMA railroad shut down with in months of the oil train fire in quebec in 2012. CMQ no longer exists as a Railroad as of now it was acquired by Canadian Pacific. Estonia. Latvia & Lithuania have been contenders for older dash 7 locomotives and most likely would buy up remaining dash 8's to replace what's left of the older Soviet era units.
The C39's went to Peru
Thanks. I know, this was a remixed video of 2019.
Very happy you call them Warbonnets instead of Fakebonnets.
albany&eastern ended up buying four B40-8 locomotives numbered 1807 1841 5935 and 5957 were they also have a C40-8 numbered 9252
Funny that the Genesis series, to me one of the best looking US locomotives, is based on these
Super interesting - I was kinda wondering when/if some of the hundreds of older big GE units were going to start making their way in larger numbers to smaller operators. I was thinking there was a hesitancy given they are nearly all larger 6 axle units, but maybe that isn't really a concern anymore?
Pan Am got bought out by cheapskate express this year back in may or june AC! and a good thing GE makes a halfway descent locomotive because according to air force engine mechanics i know half of their jet engines ain't worth a gnats ass's damn!!
Really? The CF6 and GE90 seem pretty popular, and have done since the 1970s? And what about the J79? That has a very long service record behind it
@@AndreiTupolev these guys worked on 15's and 16's in the 80's and said the GE's were higher maintenance and went through more parts and at least three quarters of inflights were GE engines! they said Pratt and Whitney's were way better mills!
Thanks Keith. I knew about the Pan Am buyout.
One of the most reliable civil commercial jet engines is the CFM series (CFM56, CFM Leap etc) and these all have a GE core.
@@Trains21 wasn't sure since you didn't mention it and i thought it was something with the purchases!
I've had the pleasure of seeing two NS dash 8s lead some trains back in 2017/2018. One had an Rs3l and the other, a p3. 2nd even had a former csx dash 840cw trailing. Last time I saw dash 8 standard cab on rails was last year with 5 Gecx b32-8 units on a NS manifest. I have however, seen a dash 8 in patched d&h paint outside of Chattanooga's debutts yard. Of course it is definitely pleasing to know that CSX brought many of their wide cab d8s back to service. Even brought csx 9280 into service, which was a former pan am dash 8 i think.
Yes 9280 was formerly pan am 7627, a former csx again
Another great video Aaron! Awesome to see these older 8 cause when I was younger I remember them vaguely when my dad would rail fan in the 80s and 90s. Would love to see the bensef dash 8 some day. Also I think NS should go back to the lower engine numbers on the nose!
Thanks Rob! I kinda' like the high-mounted number boards. It's the headlight that I like on the nose. But then again, that's more dangerous to crews.
13:53 no no your correct, I happen to know a lot about that disaster in question and how MMA is 100% to blame for it. Even know a few videos on the said disaster that explains how it all went out and MMA eventually going bankrupt in 2014.
You would be correct The MMA was responsible for the huge fire here in Canada. It is known as the Lac-Megantic rail disaster and there were multiple parties responsible for the crash. Failing to secure the brakes was the biggest nail in the coffin(I think). Enjoyed this video of the Dash 8 too!:)
Note that nowhere in the official reports that are now public that the fire department faced any blame or repercussions from Transport Canada or the Government of Quebec or Canada for cutting the fuel off which caused the air compressor to stop running and make the train to run away in the first place. The railroad and its employees were thrown under thr bus for everything.
The #7021 a U30C brand new, in 1980 rode like a Cadillac.
Waycross to Yeoman in Tampa
Great video! Remember all the hype about Dash 8s in magazines 30 years ago, Trains and Model mags,, Love seeing the ex B&M and the MWCX carloads or empties from my town in your shots at that wye by the u haul yard.
Sure do. You couldn't get away from it. Thanks for watching.
lac mclantic
A few C39-8’s were bought by MMA from the Pennsylvania Northeastern and legit one arrived (8202) and they got thrown into storage after the derailment in Lac Megantic, Quebec and then got taken to LTEX in Ohio and was scrapped
13:50 you talking about the Lac-Megantic derailment? Yeah, that one. They went to NSSX, then Pennsylvania Northeastern, then MMA, then back to Pennsylvania Northeastern in 2014. I may be wrong though.
Santa Fe had a bunch of standard cab blue bonnet 4 axle units. I believe they were numbered in the 7400s.
Some of the C39-8s from NS went to Peru. Most of them have been rebuilt. Only 4 non modified stand
NSSX = National Salvage and Service Corporation
Thanks
I’ve been an engineer for 20 years now, and every mechanical failure I’ve ever had was with a modern EMD. I’ve also found the GEs to be more comfortable and user friendly to boot.
Them WNYP AC6000’s look really sharp. A lot of people weren’t happy when they replaced the 6 axle alcos… personally, I’m happy they got replaced with AC6000’s, something equally as cool in my opinion. Plus it means the AC6000 is not meeting the same fate as the SD80MACs… that being said, it’d be nice to see some 8-32, 40B’s replace the 4 axle alcos, in the WNYP scheme
Problem with the AC6000's is that they're mechanical freaks (and their software isn't supported from what someone close the the purchase alluded to), like the SD90MAC's, and deserved the same fate. The issues with them were not insignificant when A&M was overhauling them for WNYP. Keeping the big MLW's would've been a better idea in hindsight. Or replacement with SD40-2's, SD70M-2's, C40-8's, or pretty much anything else.
@@amateurarborist4410
The original AC6000CW's were problematic but the SD90MAC's were far worse. The AC6000CW's always had problems with crankshafts and turbochargers but SD90MAC's broke down more often with damaged crankshafts,motor mounts,and other components. Even the SD9043MAC convertibles were an issue because alot of the units ended up with cracked frames. It honestly was foolish of Norfolk Southern and Canadian Pacific to do SD70ACU rebuilds. The units with WNYP are rebuilt CW44-6's or CW46AC's with Evolution Series electronics. CSX at first derated the entire AC6000CW fleet down to 4,400-4,600 HP. Some units became CW46AH's. Certain amounts from what I remember also got prime motor replacements that were intended for 5,800 HP but most still retained the factory 7HDL's despite the derated horsepower. It was cheaper to lower the horsepower and it actually solved the mechanical malfunctions.
All of the units were then sold to PRLX before being leased to Norfolk Southern because CSX didn't want to pay more in taxes with more units on the roster. However,Union Pacific did the C44ACM program and completely rebuilt them with 7FDL's and changing the exhaust manifolds.
At first the units were also derated and then put into storage for awhile while the program was in the works. GE units are less costly to rebuild than EMD units,despite 10/1 more EMD units being around in shortline usage. Alot of that is thanks to EPA regulations and for GE units,it's thanks to Wabtec Relco taking over and finally installing rebuild programs. GE themselves were never customer friendly.
P5 action! (Sounds like CSX 5933’s horn)
CN's remaining active standard cab C40-8s are restricted to the Iron Range in Minnesota, where most have been fitted with straight air systems. A few C40-8s escaped storage last summer with one (the CN 2131) being put on the head end of hotshot Chicago-Toronto intermodal #148. Save for BC Rail 4609 and blue devil IC 2466, the Iron Range C40s are the only active Dash 8s on CN.
Currently, my local railroad has 6 of them, and they have been very helpful whenever they get busy with longer trains . They are former union pacific southern pacific nysw csx and Conrail locomotives
Wow, that was talking so fast, I felt like I was out of breath. I thought the Pan Am is owned by CSX and the Roanoke Shops are closed?
Awesome video AC! I noticed in the past, CSX has been reactivating Dash-8’s since April 2021. So far, I found out that while almost 60 of them were reactivated from CSX, another 10 were sadly retired in June 2022. For those Dash-8’s that were retired from CSX, from what I heard some found a new home on the INRD & were going to replace the SD90MAC’s (since their leasing expired this month), while the others were rumored to be scrapped.
OH PHOOEY NOT THE SD90s
@@AmtrakCSXFan457 I think he meant the Dash-8s.
Interesting. I'm planning to railfan the Indiana in 2023. Maybe I can add something to your discovery.
@@Trains21 I was saying that I am now sad that the SD90s lease expired
@@Trains21 yeah. Infact, believe it or not. Out of the 10 Dash-8's that were retired in June 2022, I actually caught 9 out of the 10 total. All of whom that were stored at Cumberland. Infact, I caught 6 of them (7677, 7679, 7694, 7709, 7722, & 7724) just hours before they left the Cumberland deadline on June 5th. Another 3 Dash-8's I caught that were among the retired list were 7650, 7667, & 7683. The Dash-8 that was retired that I didn't get though was 7896.
Roanoke and probably Erie are gone, probably because Fort Worth is newer and larger
Yeah :(
Ahhh C39-8's .... Affectionately known as "The Camels" I loved those engines, and the Lansdale short line is running the old Conrail 8212 with it's AWESOME Nathan K5LA is my absolute favorite.
If it's G&W it's going to be scrapped because of them refusing to rebuild and follow emission standards
garbaGE
EMD fan incoming!
The local class 3 that I am near has nothing but dash-8s for mainline freight
Your insight on those many details are highly apprechiated! It really helps to understand the history of US locomotives, especially GE. Thanks!
Thanks for watching Luke!
most of the dash 8 aquired from conrail had icc lights above or below the number lights. CSx only purchased units with no icc lights new
Those old standard cab Dash 8 units actually have a pretty cool look to them. The older trucks that don't look like rollerblades also stand out.
A 70ACeT4 and a -8.
What a pairing
Correct me if I'm wrong but with CSX buying part of Pan Am, they re-acquired some of their Dash 8s, now in their YN3 "Dark Future" livery. They went full circle.
I also believe the Western Maryland Scenic has one, or atleast there is one in that area in Western Maryland paint.
I can see CSX getting rid of them units pretty quick too.
@@onrr1726 They wouldn't have repainted them if they were.
@@Sleeper____1472If they repainted them then none of them would have been sold!
@@RAtheGoodRailfanner_888 I said some not all
@@Sleeper____1472 Oh okay! Which dash 8s will Csx rebuild to keep? Or which ones Csx scrap sell or retire forever? I wanna know which numbers and for the dash 9s too!
Thanx for th video. Doesn't AMTRAK still have some Dash -8 for yard work and I though Pan Am was history after CSX bought them??
Yes, Amtrak still has a couple 4-axles and CSX did buyout Pan Am but they may still exist seperately.
Great post AC
Amtrak still uses Dash 8 4-axle units for switching, you can see them at the Auto Train terminals in Lorton, VA and Orlando, FL. They run the Auto Train cars through the car wash every day, and as a result they are very clean and shiny locomotives.
Not just in Florida, I there is one in Philadelphia, and some in Chicago and other places.
There are a few in California.
The Amtrak Auto Trains from time to time also will have P32-BWH's in consist but usually DIT. Amtrak also uses those units strictly for hauling their ballast manifests. It's not impossible for every once in awhile to see any of them also returning to passenger service although very rare. I had the unique sight of seeing a P32-BWH leading the Sunset Limited a few years ago because a P42 as usual had another malfunction and was dead in consist. The unit was being refueled at the fuel racks on the mainline at Union Pacific's Kirby Yard just outside San Antonio Texas.
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Good video.......but it's the noses, not the cabs, that are wide or "standard". Cab width is the same regardless of noses.
True, but they're typically called wide cabs, not wide noses.
The 8207 shown a lot looks like a DASH-7 with the "step" in the hood. CSX got back some of its narrow cab DASH-8's when it acquired PanAm. They have been renumbered into a 9200 series (from a Trains magazine post.)
Most of the CSX dash 8 fleet was sold to LTEX as well as CN’s fleet
Most of CNs fleet was sold to K&K recycling in Welland, ON and another half to the torchers in Chicago heights.. only about a dozen were sold to LTEX with only a couple more to go there, the rest will probably go to Chicago heights eventually
Dont worry, we wont get to see any Dash-8's outside of the yard in Southern California, unless you get super lucky and see something in CN colors thats extremely lost from its home on a grain or ethanol train lol.
Not entirely true. CSX retook possession of some c40-8's when they bought Pan Am.
@@TK-ec5bv BNSF and UP both have agreements with California to not run certain engines in the state. The state can't force emissions requirements but railroads have agreed to some terms.
the goal was to average out at T2 emissions. BNSF has done so UP uses some credits to reach that level.
there is still one C39-8 running in Lansdale for the Pennsylvania Northeastern Shortline
Chicago had a Dash 8 standard cab lead on the CN, somehow it had escaped the iron ranges ion Minnesota and made its way to Chicagoland.
These things can pull a mountain down
Uhhhh AC6000s aren’t Dash 8s……
Uhhhh I know that.
@@Trains21 Uhhhh, then why did you include them in this video?
Polarized windows!
Couple things, I know the info in the video dates to 2019, and as of December 2022 all CN's second hand -8's are retired. And only one C40-8M is still running from what I've heard (was on a plow train on Bala and Newmarket Subs in Ontario December 27, 2022).
Second, the C39-8E was a GE term applied only to the last 25 NS C39-8's, 8664-8688, and it indeed stood for 'Enhanced'. These were basically pre production C40-8's, the most obvious spotting feature was the angular cab that all subsequent-8's would be built with (standard cab deliveries, obviously not wide nosed cabs), however they also included a radiator with angled intakes beneath the 'wings', standard on all subsequent -8's. I imagine they included control systems that were about to be introduced on the -8 line. The first -8 delivered was UP 9100 iirc in late 1987, same year the NS C39-8 were delivered.
*F*
Top Hats! 👍 C39-8's the beast's!
I’ve been lucky enough to film and capture these gifts in upstate New York on csx is lines I hope they live as long as I’m alive and never die
ChainsawN&W1218, I actually like those old units and the high hoods, like the new power too but the old locos are tough!👍🚂🛤