Not quite there yet: GE's u28 and 30 series locomotives.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ธ.ค. 2022
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U33b- BN U30C 5383 @ IRM w/Photo Freight
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Mid-Atlantic RR and Airplanes -Train Spotting: B&O RR Museum EMD GP30
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Santa Fe did also have EMD FP45’s to complement their passenger U-boats. The FP45’s worked much better. Not to mention they were more familiar to crews thanks to their EMD heritage. The 45’s also lasted in passenger service until Amtrak took over. Heck, a few FP45’s were even briefly used by Amtrak in passenger service before being moved to freight service by the Santa Fe. By that point(to my knowledge) not a single FP45 had even derailed on the mainline, and these locomotives were, just like any EMD hood or cowl unit, insanely reliable. These were easily the best American passenger-oriented diesel locomotives of the 1960s. It’s amazing how good they were as both freight and passenger locomotives, especially considering they were based on a freight locomotive design. EMD was also more experienced than GE when it came to making passenger-oriented diesel locomotives, whereas GE was very new to it and inexperienced when they produced the U28CG. Infact, the U28CG was the first passenger-oriented diesel locomotive they ever built entirely by themselves(unlike in the case of the ALCO PA’s back when they were still partnered with ALCO). And coupled with their turbochargers being more questionable than they are now, well, they were in the perfect trap for not only a failure, but for EMD to come in and stomp them hard. There was a good reason Santa Fe had contacted EMD for a new passenger locomotive at they same time they did GE, because the EMD’s were the ones that won out in the end. Finally the FP45’s were more powerful than those U-boats.
It wasn’t until the U34CH, a U36 variant, that GE managed to make a completely (albeit modestly) successful passenger locomotive, for NJ DOT.
Well done video....kindly do a segment on FDL and GEVO series prime movers...
and the Alco 244 and 251 prime movers..👍
All GE "U" series locos had a compartment for a steam generator right behind the cab - it's the bulge seen on the left side of the U28CG. Apparently the water tanks didn't have proper baffling in them, which the six-axle trucks couldn't cope with above certain speeds - the water sloshing back and forth literally rocked the trucks off the rails. And both the CG models supposedly had aluminum wiring instead of copper, which explains their tendency to burn up at the drop of a hat.
I still love my old alcos and Baldwin locomotive s
Loved the stub-nose uboats! Growing up in the 1960s next to a PRR mainline I got to see all engine types but U30C's were my favorite.Thanks for this.
The U30C is one of my favorites, l guess because BN had a ton of them lol.
I really enjoyed watching this series. Great content and valuable information. Thank you for sharing this with us
IIRC it was a combination of the steam generator, the water tanks and the truck suspension still being rated for freight.
I ran both of these machines Denver-Pueblo,CO. They defined the term "junk" Both had the KC109 controller, a 16 notch, foot long throttle handle. I liked the looks of them, but that's all.
Awesome. I was lucky to grow up watching the Diesel Wars. Always rooted for FM Trainmasters...sigh
Happy to see you do this loco! I always liked this in the Milwaukee road schemes. But the 25s with the long nose where kinda cool looking.
Your videos are really very informative and interesting. Please keep them coming.
I appreciate the comment! Thank You!
The problems with the U28 and U30CGs of the Santa Fe came down to dynamic track factors. The length of the wheelbase combined with around 1500k gallons of water on board sloshing back and forth. It literally would walk off the rails. Why the FP45 didn't get the same problem was due to having learned from their mistakes during E unit production. They had massive baffles in the water tanks to stop the sloshing.
Most railroads not only tried to match locomotives with similer horsepower but it was more important to match locomotives based off the size and gallons the of the fuel tank held. Exsample like Lehigh Valley would only match locomotives that held 1500 gallon fuel tanks with other units with 1500 gallon fuel tanks so that it was easy to keep track of the fuel levels on all the locomotives by baseing it off the level on the lead unit.
FYI, the steam generator on the U28CG's were right behind the cab in a section already made for it. Not on the rear as you said. Right behind the cab!
The Santa Fe U30CG used to pass my residence daily both in passenger service and heading fast time Chicago to LA express freight service. At that time they were in Warbonnet livery.
I miss those so much. All crap out there today.
Great video!!!Loved it
I love I love it I love it, please don't stop keep them knowledgeable videos coming 💯💯💯💯.....
Excellent video sir keep up the great work
i love the U30CG variate :D
The SD40-2 can be found on many shortline railroads.Shortlines used to only have GP38/40 GP30 how things have changed.A shortline railroad near me the AC&W now has SD40-3 and former CN SD60M they also lease CSX DASH 9 and AC4400 locomotives.
Please be aware that the "b" designation stands for TWO-AXLE trucks, not FOUR-AXLE trucks. The EMD DD35's and DD40AX were the only U.S. locomotives with 4-axle trucks.
The gp-38 didn't come out ahead of the sd-40. The entire 645 line came out at the same time except for the gp/sd-39. Also to be remembered is there was no gp-38 demonstrator . Also GE was able to sell their locomotives to the RR's not only because they backed their products but more importantly because they did two things EMD wouldn't do and ALCO couldn't do. one was accepted dead and damaged locos for trade-in (E.G. CB&Q E-5s were the trade-ins on their 6 U-25B's ). The other thing was financing new locos thru GE Credit which back in the day could borrow money cheaper than the US Government due to GE's credit rating and then finance equipment sales to their customers regardless of which product and make profits on both the product and the financing.
They were still way ahead of English Electric and Sulzer derived products.
First off the gp-30 was EMD 's answer to the u-25b which is why its gp-30 rather than gp-22 the 30 improvements being a marketing gimmick as most of the improvements were EMD coping GE. also c-628 is not ALCO response as the c-628 predates GE six axles . it was actually ALCO's response to the sd-24 which outsold the rsd-15.
Even if they didn't produce the horsepower of the biggest locomotive. They still allowed the railroads to retire thousands of old worn-out F series units. The F7 makes 1500 so 4 were 6k hp. With 3 GP30S you could replace a set of F units.
Alco C-628 predates the U-25c.
Yeah Frisco
Hey, I've been watching your videos for awhile now, and generally find them informative & entertaining - but I do have a few bones to pick...
1st, you mention here that EMD's GP30 was introduced to compete with GE's U30 - which is a problem: since the U30 wasn't introduced till 5 years later...
I assume you meant to say the U25 - which was introduced 2 years earlier in 1959...
And lets call a spade a shovel here, shall we: milking 2500 HP out of the 567 powered GP35 was in fact a bad idea - and they were quite trouble prone to my understanding...
Nothin for nothin but, for someone who calls himself "The Alco Guy" it seems you don't miss a chance to rag on them! And it might not bother me as much if you didn't always paint EMD & GE as flawless, lol.
Cause it's common knowledge that the U-boats were fairly unreliable themselves - and most were retired quite early in their careers.
I do share you contempt for Alco on the level of (mis) management & poor quality control - as their designs were superior to the competition in many ways... And had they been able to hold on just a few more years, (till the '73 energy crisis) there might just be a 3rd player in the game today!
HI open eyes!
I appreciate the constructive criticism. You are correct as i did mean the GP30 was introduced to compete with the u25b, I miss spoke and or got my locomotives confused.
I must note however, that I have gone after GE in terms of its locomotives reliability in this as well as my other videos.
I spoke about GE having spent a lot cash to keep its customers happy in this particular video, specifically at 5.00 mark, were I spoke about their costly but, effective, customer relations program were they were basically paid customers off to keep them happy.
In my earlier u25B video, I speak of GE having deep pockets which allowed them to get the number 2 spot from Alco. I also go after GM for there sd45 problems in that video and their BL2 in my video about that locomotive.
Thanks for watching!
Happy new year!
@@alcobufff
I admit you certainly did mention the U-boats having issues, and GE standing behind them - but I just get the feeling you kinda downplayed it a bit, and then jumped on Alco for reliability...
The 251 WAS a fairly reliable power plant - as the fact that many are still in service today attests to!
And being honest, the RS11 stomped all over the competition at the time, right?
In all fairness, it should've generated way more sales than it did!
Why do you suppose GE was able to continue making solid sales after the U's when Alco couldn't pull sales after standing behind the 244 powered RS3?
(My guess is cause by then they were the only other game in town besides EMD.)
I'm just saying, lets give Alco a little more love - it tears me up that they died from mismanagement, lol.
Be well & keep up the good videos👍
Was that last loco remote controlled? I was just wondering from seeing the tall antenna on the front
Any thoughts on why some of these GE units were prone to derailments?
There are indicates that it had to do with the truck design and or the axles, I have never been able to get a clear answer, GEs appears to have done a good job in hushing this up.
@@alcobufff It seems that only one U30CG (and no U28CG's) derailed in passenger service, but Santa Fe reassigned them to freight service out of an abundance of caution. The FP45's were coming online, and Amtrak was not too far in the future. Amtrak's SDP40F's, which were similar (but not identical) to the FP45's did have derailment problems ... but that's a different discussion. After reassignment to freight service the U28CG's and U30CG's had their steam generators removed and water tanks reconfigured for fuel, essentially becoming plain old U28C's and U30C's internally.
what caused derailments with the 28cg's?
was it a truck problem, ....or what was the deal with them?
NO!IT WAS THE CONDITION OF THE TRACKS THAT THEY RAN ON . ANYTIME YOU HAD POOR TRACKS, YOU COULD LOOK FORWARD TO HAVING DERAILMENTS! THE LOCOMOTIVE TRUCKS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH UNIT HAVING A DERAILMENT! POOR TRACKAGE STRUCTURE WILL CAUSE A DERAILMENT, EVERY TIME! UPGRADE THE TRACKS ,AND YOU CAN ELIMINATE THE DERAILMENTS! IT IS NOT THE LOCOMOTIVES THAT WAS THE PROBLEM!IT WAS THE CONDITION OF THE TRACKS!
@@terrywallace8922 poor track ? The Santa Fe at that time had excellent track . which was an absolute necessity given their passenger and high speed freight service.
how do u no so much bout ur subjects
PC and later CR inherited former NYC U30Bs. ( and a lot of them too!)
In all my shooting trains, have I seen a class of locos that looked like !@#$ and sounded,,,,,like a well worn U-Boat.
Painting them blue did not help either.
I sure miss those days.
YOU ALSO TALKED ABOUT HOW THESE LOCOMOTIVES WAS HAVING DERAILMENTS. IT WAS NOT THE LOCOMOTIVES THAT WAS THE PROBLEM!IT WAS THE POOR RAILS THAT THEY RAN ON! JUST ASK AMTRACK! THE SDP40FS TRUCKS WERE NOT THE PROBLEM!IT WAS THE POOR TRACKAGE TGAT AMTRACK WAS RUNNING THEM ON! ANYTIME YOU BUY NEW SIX AXLE LOCOMOTIVES, YOU BETTER HAVE YOUR TRACKS FIXED UP TO HANDLE THEM! AMTRAK WAS VERY DUMB FOR LISTENING TO EVERYONE BUT FAILED TO CONCLUDE THAT IT WAS NOT THE LOCOMOTIVES THEY BOUGHT, THEY FORGOT TO UPGRADE THE TRACKS THATTHEY RANTHESE NEW LOCOMOTIVES ON !THE TRACK WAS THE CULPRIT!NOT THE LOCOMOTIVES! ONCE THEY FIGURED OUT WHAT WAS CAUSING THOSE DERAILMENTS, THEY HAD GOTTEN RID OF A GOOD QUALITY RELIABLE locomotive THEY SCRAPPED THEM BEFORE THEY REACHED THEIR 18TH BIRTHDAYS! THEY HAD 150 OF THEM ,AND LIKE DUMMIES,THEY SOLD THEM FOR SCRAP!THEY WASTED GOID MONEY ON GOOD LOCOMOTIVES, WHEN ALL THEY HAD TO DO WAS LOOK AT THE TRACKS THEY HAD THEM RUNNING ON! WHAT GOOD IS IT TO BUY NEW LOCOMOTIVES AND YOU FAILS TO FIX YOUR TRACKS TO HANDLE THE LOAD?! FIRST, YOU MUST FIX YOUR TRACKS BEFORE YOU BUY NEW EQUIPMENT!
For these units, poor track conditions weren't an issue. The Santa Fe was well known in the 60s for having immaculate track conditions, and very few derailments during the SDP40F era occurred on their lines. The sloshing of the water tanks for the steam gen was the main issue for the GE's, as it was for the SDP40Fs in certain circumstances. I do agree though, the SDP40Fs were very reliable locomotives that should've been upgraded to HEP instead of replacing them with four-axle power.
stop typing in all caps you obnoxious crapheel.
T&D RAILROAD HAD U28B LOCOMOTIVES #8200 - #8299 . T&D RAILROAD HAD U28C LOCOMOTIVES #2800 - #2899 . T&D RAILROAD SAVED SOME OF THEIR U28B AND U28C LOCOMOTIVES .