A New Approach To Force Fetch? | Ep. 282
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.ย. 2024
- Chris Armanini of Full Send K9 comes on to discuss and demonstrate his entire program of the "Unforced Force Fetch."
~What aspects of the traditional approaches motivated a new outlook?
~How many dogs were washed out because their genetics couldn't overcome a traditional approach?
~The language and theory behind the UFF process
~When do we name the behaviors?
~Is "hold" implied or a separate command?
~Where does the pressure come into play?
~From slip lead pressure to E-collar pressure
~Free shaping the retrieve as a young pup
~Room service payment in behavior vs rewarding out of behavior. Direct vs Indirect reward
~Successive Approximation and the power of frustration and struggle
~Do you have to start with shaping the retrieve even if you didn't start it as a pup?
~Naming the "fetch" command
~The variety of items to use on the table
~Making the table itself challenging for the dog
~Getting on the table and walking through the steps of the process
~Whats the difference between a slip lead and the toe hitch?
~Whats wrong with the ear pinch?
~Leaving the table and going to the ground
~Accidentally pairing a correct with the command
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Watch the training:
Training Part 1: The Initial Steps | 2ly.link/1zLOZ
Training Part 2: The Continuing Steps | 2ly.link/1zLOa
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Love it. Thanks for sharing the info. I know you’re a solid dude and not about the cash, but rep your gdiy caps, they’re sweet. I’d like to score one someday.
Appreciate that. Thanks for watching and glad you like the hats. They can be found at gundogityourself.com/shop.
@@gundogityourself let your viewers know man. I looked on your website. I’ll grab one eventually. Glad to see some lab content. What do you think of English setters? We are kinda looking in that direction even though my wife likes GSPs.
Totally with you on thinking the standardized way this is done for all dogs washes a lot of good or could be great dogs out. You may answer this in the video as I’m not all the way through it yet but wanted to ask in case I forget. If you’re turning pressure off before the desired result, couldn’t the dog begin to not complete the task? I’m just thinking out loud here. Pressure on, fetching buck or dummy presented> pressure off but the task or what we are trying to teach hasn’t been completed yet. Thanks in advance if you even read or try to make sense of the way my brain works! Keep up the great content Nick love your stuff
I share your thoughts and personally believe that can lead to dogs chattering or chomping. The pressure is removed for the act of biting, so that is what they do to avoid pressure.
It definitely could lead to chomping if the timing of removing the pressure is improperly handled too often. However, Id say the bulk of the chattering or chomping isn't a result of the pressure. Its a result from people going too fast and not solidifying the hold behavior prior to the steps involving pressure. They spend 2 seconds on showing the behavior and then start pinching and pressuring the dog while repeating "hold" 500 times and just hope the dog figures it out with enough reps. The preparation of pressure and solidifying the hold within the preceding steps is exponentially more important than trying to work it out on the steps involving pressure. Id say if thats a potential concern in response to the pressure turning off too soon then the handler is operating at a step in the process they aren't prepared for.
In my opinion this applies to all Force Fetch programs. Not just Chris' Unforced Force Fetch program described in this episode.
Thanks for watching!
very good episode. I’ve been looking for a way to do this that didn’t introduce a lot of conflict- because i noticed the same things you have and didn’t like it.
Thanks for watching and hopefully it gave you some considerations for your process.
This was a good one and the guest explains very well. I hope in the future, you get him to show how he shapes the retrieve first as many gun dogs don't have a lot of natural retrieve on anything but birds. Teaching them to play and have fun with retrieving opens up all kinds of things you can train without birds. Also, this method removes the conflict of bringing the bird back and handing it over - the source of a lot of the mouthing, dropping the bird, etc.
Question, - - my dog is free-shaped to fetch up the item, bring it to hand but is mouthing and not always holding it for a period of time. My concern is the amount of mouthing/rolling/biting the item and trying to not reinforce a bad habit. Typically you would extend the duration of the hold, name the behavior and then introduce all the types of items you'll work with at this time (if I understand your video correctly) before moving to the table. Because of the mouthing, should I just move to the table at this point to work on the mouthing/rolling/biting? Thanks.
The always famous response: it depends. Is your dog old/mature enough to start the entire table program?
You can clean up a whole lot with the shaping process but you can also clean it up once you get to the table. If you're really only worried about the mouthiness getting reinforced during shaping then Id say simply don't reinforce it then. You don't have to mark/pay until theres a quiet mouth. If the dog is getting rewarded and reinforced for rolling it around then that would just mean that you decided to pay it.
Long story short: dealer's choice. Im personally not super big on jumping on the table for a short glimpse of the program and getting off. So if you're only worried about the mouthing then I would probably try and clean up off the table. If you're ready for the whole program then why not?
Thanks for watching!
@@gundogityourself Thanks! Yea should have stated he's a little over 6 mo old and collar conditioned. I believe mature enough to start table work - taking it slow so far and doing well with placing muzzle in hand. Appreciate your time and expertise!
What would training whoa in this system look like?
Reach out to Liberty Canine. That’s his wheelhouse and well versed in this system as well.
It may surprise you how little difference it looks to the more common approaches. Its more about the addition of positive reinforcement and the reward scales then it is on the step by step how tos. Once you have the dog working for the reward then you can work into variable/intermittent rewards and add in the negative reinforcement with the collar and then you have your Whoa in most of the same ways that have always been used. The steps of most approaches are fine. Its us as a handler that need to be more cognizant with our markers and reward structure that would make the difference.
Episodes 274 and 275 go into Markers and Reward Structure if interested.
Thanks for watching