This is my all time favorite miniatures game rules. It is so much simpler and easy to use than the popular money pit games like Warhammer. It can be used with any brand of figures. You are not tied into buying predetermined army lists that will only go obsolete forcing you to buy new ones. It can be used with any scale and even plain historical figures.
I own, and play, both versions of BattleSystem. The BS Skirmish game is a miniatures game with a thin veneer of RPG over the top. It reminds me of 4e D&D, which was miniatures-focused. It reduces combat to very simple, very fast play: Fighters have roughly one Hit per Level. Every Hit, in combat, eliminates one Hit from the figure -- high level figures/monsters get two attacks per round, possibly knocking off 2 Hits per round... Experience, and level advancement are part of the rules, if you choose to use them. Both books have great ideas on how to make terrain for your games. Each book has a fantastic painting guide to get beginners started on how to paint miniatures. These guides are somewhat dated, but still useful. Their photographs are superb, throughout. The sample scenarios are good, and fun, as well. The mass battles rules are fairly exhaustive, covering nearly every possible type of combat, situation, and creature types: siege warfare with castles and engines of war; battle wagons/platforms; burrowing creatures and mining; aerial cavalry of many different types of creatures; formed troops, elite troop types, skirmish troops; heroes of every type can be stat'ed; magic from the game; magical devices, including artifacts and relics can be used in the game. There are rules for converting any monster, creature, or device, into BS stat's. It is a bucket-o'-dice game, rolling one Attack Die (AD) for each figure fighting; the AD varies from a d4, to a d12. The hits scored are based on the number rolled on the AD: 4-5 = 1 Hit; 6-9 = 2 Hits, etc. Defending figures roll an Armor Check to see if the Hits scored by the attacker bounce: roll your Armor Rating, or higher, on 1d10, for the Hit to have no effect. I've been playing 2e BS since 1995. It is a very good fantasy wargame, but it is not AD&D. RPG players hate that their Fireball spell only affects a 2" diameter area, eliminating 2-4 figures, if they are lucky... That is because the spell is only a 40-foot diameter ball of fire! Each figure represents 10 men, so 2-4 figures equates to 20-40 men being killed! RPG fans miss that translation. Their Arch-Mage figures only have around 6-8 Hits, and that bugs them, as well: "He has 42 Hit Points in our RPG!" This is not your RPG rules... As a tabletop fantasy wargame it is very comprehensive, and a very good game. Forget that it is based on AD&D and gauge it on its own merits. It is very good for what it is, a miniatures game, not an RPG. Cheers!
Bruce Laue Hello Bruce, that was a very thorough and inspiring comment on the Battlesystem games....thank you! I am very much looking forward to playing the mass battle version second edition. I already have friends buying miniatures we are going to use 15mm for it. Thanks for your insight from so many years experience. I have a copy I bought on release for the mass battle but I have had it in a box since then never played. Cheers Palmer
Accurate, agreed completely. I still regret that TSR's obsession with integrating BS mass combat into their modules and RPG books faded so quickly. Would have loved more Ral Partha minis for the oddball Dark Sun stuff, for ex.
Thanks so much for such a thorough comment and sharing of your experience! ☺️ I just recently purchased 1E & 2E Battlesystem, and I’m looking to get into integrating 2E Battlesystem into my OD&D game (as a replacement for Chainmail and/or Age of Fantasy). Your comment was very insightful!
I dig out a copy of the rules every once in awhile for nostalgia reasons. Kind of a decent rulebook for what it's trying to accomplish. Mass conflict and the Ralpartha miniatures for the most part worked hand in hand with the rulebook. The odd thing is that I was just thinking about older games and broke out my 25mm Skeleton Elephant today and started repairs and repainting for a change of pace.
Helcarexe26 Yeah I really love the rulebook it’s a great excuse to look back at those mini’s or maybe even get some more lol cool interested in seeing the evil dead elephant 💀
I've been running Dragonlance since 1994... The Battlesystem is suggested on the later modules for large scale battles, but I have never managed to wrap my mind around going through its rules... fortunately they provide alternatives on the DL modules. As of 2020 it seems there is no official 5E large scale battle rules, perhaps there is a good reason for that, maybe we should use a different game altogether for that... Thanks for the video, it seems that there are not many reviews of Battlesystem on TH-cam right now.
True it’s an old game that came out years before TH-cam existed so it’s not covered well here. Not sure if you saw it but there is a good article series on beasts of war link in the description. I do think it’s probably best to keep RPG games separate. What makes a character successful in an RPG is likely not the same in many respects in a miniature game. However as a miniature game if that’s ever your thing I think AD&D battlesystems has a lot to offer. Cheers
FWIW, the 1st edition is a very different game, with the 2nd edition rules being almost completely changed. Original came as a large boxed set with hundreds of die cut counters of varying sizes that let you play without needing to buy miniatures at all, kind of defeating the purpose of wroting minis rules in the first place. 2nd ed is much improved as a minis game IMO, and TSR leaned heavily into trying to integrate mass combat using the system into D&D for quite a while. Dark Sun was originally intended to be even more minis/mass combat focused than it was in Dragon Kings, although they backed off on that shortly thereafter. Skirmish rules were playable but not terrific. Greatly preferred the Chainmail rules that dropped in the d20/3.0 era, which evolved into the simplified D&D Miniatures rules set with the prepainted figure line.
Yes! I play it with a castle with battering rams, ballistas, catapults, etc. I use hundreds of mixed brand fantasy miniatures. All you need to do is make units of 6 or more like figures. It can be played with or without magic.
iugoeswest I noticed things like specific modules with mass battle portions and spell lists for battle systems within the tome of magic were some ways they cross supported it. Cheers
I am a long-time miniature gamer (ancients, Napoleonis, WW2 and Cold War) and a former RPGer (AD&D 1E, Traveller, RuneQuest). Battlesystem Miniatures has an okay to good game mechanic (better than Warhammer Fantasy), but i was underwhelmed its writing (targetting for too young an audience for my tastes although I understand why). But i would have loved army lists based in some fictional setting to attract gamers from outside their own D&D campaign. This would have brought in grognards like myself...
When high level characters start running a fiefdom, rules for mass combat need to come into play. That army of Orcs from the nearby hills come down the road begin raiding your lands and you need to gather your forces to go plonk them. Maybe your country is at war with it's neighboring country? You could use cardboard square chits like classic wargames.
WGRevival there are some pdf’s around of the rulebook as it’s out of print you might enjoy glancing through it for nostalgia alone if you were obsessed 😊
ostrowulf I am curious about it myself one day I will try it out my plans are to try the mass battle first and that isn’t even the next on the list. However I must say I love some of those old Ral Partha/Grenadier models Cheers
This is my all time favorite miniatures game rules. It is so much simpler and easy to use than the popular money pit games like Warhammer. It can be used with any brand of figures. You are not tied into buying predetermined army lists that will only go obsolete forcing you to buy new ones. It can be used with any scale and even plain historical figures.
I own, and play, both versions of BattleSystem. The BS Skirmish game is a miniatures game with a thin veneer of RPG over the top. It reminds me of 4e D&D, which was miniatures-focused. It reduces combat to very simple, very fast play: Fighters have roughly one Hit per Level. Every Hit, in combat, eliminates one Hit from the figure -- high level figures/monsters get two attacks per round, possibly knocking off 2 Hits per round... Experience, and level advancement are part of the rules, if you choose to use them.
Both books have great ideas on how to make terrain for your games. Each book has a fantastic painting guide to get beginners started on how to paint miniatures. These guides are somewhat dated, but still useful. Their photographs are superb, throughout. The sample scenarios are good, and fun, as well.
The mass battles rules are fairly exhaustive, covering nearly every possible type of combat, situation, and creature types: siege warfare with castles and engines of war; battle wagons/platforms; burrowing creatures and mining; aerial cavalry of many different types of creatures; formed troops, elite troop types, skirmish troops; heroes of every type can be stat'ed; magic from the game; magical devices, including artifacts and relics can be used in the game. There are rules for converting any monster, creature, or device, into BS stat's. It is a bucket-o'-dice game, rolling one Attack Die (AD) for each figure fighting; the AD varies from a d4, to a d12. The hits scored are based on the number rolled on the AD: 4-5 = 1 Hit; 6-9 = 2 Hits, etc. Defending figures roll an Armor Check to see if the Hits scored by the attacker bounce: roll your Armor Rating, or higher, on 1d10, for the Hit to have no effect.
I've been playing 2e BS since 1995. It is a very good fantasy wargame, but it is not AD&D. RPG players hate that their Fireball spell only affects a 2" diameter area, eliminating 2-4 figures, if they are lucky... That is because the spell is only a 40-foot diameter ball of fire! Each figure represents 10 men, so 2-4 figures equates to 20-40 men being killed! RPG fans miss that translation. Their Arch-Mage figures only have around 6-8 Hits, and that bugs them, as well: "He has 42 Hit Points in our RPG!" This is not your RPG rules...
As a tabletop fantasy wargame it is very comprehensive, and a very good game. Forget that it is based on AD&D and gauge it on its own merits. It is very good for what it is, a miniatures game, not an RPG. Cheers!
Bruce Laue Hello Bruce, that was a very thorough and inspiring comment on the Battlesystem games....thank you! I am very much looking forward to playing the mass battle version second edition. I already have friends buying miniatures we are going to use 15mm for it. Thanks for your insight from so many years experience. I have a copy I bought on release for the mass battle but I have had it in a box since then never played. Cheers Palmer
Accurate, agreed completely. I still regret that TSR's obsession with integrating BS mass combat into their modules and RPG books faded so quickly. Would have loved more Ral Partha minis for the oddball Dark Sun stuff, for ex.
Thanks so much for such a thorough comment and sharing of your experience! ☺️ I just recently purchased 1E & 2E Battlesystem, and I’m looking to get into integrating 2E Battlesystem into my OD&D game (as a replacement for Chainmail and/or Age of Fantasy). Your comment was very insightful!
Great video! Glad to see some love for Battlesystem, and I loved the lil Grenadier/Ral Partha showcase! :D
Battlesystem Skirmishes is a great little skirmish war game. Very fast playing and fun.
Those Grenadier minis are all Julie Guthrie sculpts. She's the best.
Cheers Diabolik I totally agree I really love those sculpts
Agreed! Julie Guthrie rules. One of my favorite sculptors.
I dig out a copy of the rules every once in awhile for nostalgia reasons. Kind of a decent rulebook for what it's trying to accomplish. Mass conflict and the Ralpartha miniatures for the most part worked hand in hand with the rulebook.
The odd thing is that I was just thinking about older games and broke out my 25mm Skeleton Elephant today and started repairs and repainting for a change of pace.
Helcarexe26 Yeah I really love the rulebook it’s a great excuse to look back at those mini’s or maybe even get some more lol cool interested in seeing the evil dead elephant 💀
HeresyProducktionz I should have it finished up for the Thursday night show.
I've been running Dragonlance since 1994... The Battlesystem is suggested on the later modules for large scale battles, but I have never managed to wrap my mind around going through its rules... fortunately they provide alternatives on the DL modules. As of 2020 it seems there is no official 5E large scale battle rules, perhaps there is a good reason for that, maybe we should use a different game altogether for that... Thanks for the video, it seems that there are not many reviews of Battlesystem on TH-cam right now.
True it’s an old game that came out years before TH-cam existed so it’s not covered well here. Not sure if you saw it but there is a good article series on beasts of war link in the description. I do think it’s probably best to keep RPG games separate. What makes a character successful in an RPG is likely not the same in many respects in a miniature game. However as a miniature game if that’s ever your thing I think AD&D battlesystems has a lot to offer. Cheers
FWIW, the 1st edition is a very different game, with the 2nd edition rules being almost completely changed. Original came as a large boxed set with hundreds of die cut counters of varying sizes that let you play without needing to buy miniatures at all, kind of defeating the purpose of wroting minis rules in the first place. 2nd ed is much improved as a minis game IMO, and TSR leaned heavily into trying to integrate mass combat using the system into D&D for quite a while. Dark Sun was originally intended to be even more minis/mass combat focused than it was in Dragon Kings, although they backed off on that shortly thereafter.
Skirmish rules were playable but not terrific. Greatly preferred the Chainmail rules that dropped in the d20/3.0 era, which evolved into the simplified D&D Miniatures rules set with the prepainted figure line.
thanks for the info Rich!
@@HeresyProducktionz MP. Nice to see someone reviewing this old gem.
SO is Battlesystem a good way to do MASS BATTLE in D&D 5E ??
Yes! I play it with a castle with battering rams, ballistas, catapults, etc. I use hundreds of mixed brand fantasy miniatures. All you need to do is make units of 6 or more like figures. It can be played with or without magic.
Interesting looking books, it will be interesting to see where they lead you.
TheDiomedef16 Thanks Ian I remember your fantasy battle video batrep was that Dragon Rampant?
They were a rule set written by a friend in Tabletop Commanders especially for younger children. Good fun to play though.
I've been the same way with Battlesystems books. Love the books.
Yes very nostalgic, thanks Jerry
They always mentioned these books and rules throughout the later life of 2nd edition. Very cool
iugoeswest I noticed things like specific modules with mass battle portions and spell lists for battle systems within the tome of magic were some ways they cross supported it. Cheers
HeresyProducktionz yeah. Tome of magic was the first for me also.
I am a long-time miniature gamer (ancients, Napoleonis, WW2 and Cold War) and a former RPGer (AD&D 1E, Traveller, RuneQuest).
Battlesystem Miniatures has an okay to good game mechanic (better than Warhammer Fantasy), but i was underwhelmed its writing (targetting for too young an audience for my tastes although I understand why).
But i would have loved army lists based in some fictional setting to attract gamers from outside their own D&D campaign. This would have brought in grognards like myself...
Interesting stuff mate
IDICBeer 40k cheers Nick 😊
When high level characters start running a fiefdom, rules for mass combat need to come into play. That army of Orcs from the nearby hills come down the road begin raiding your lands and you need to gather your forces to go plonk them. Maybe your country is at war with it's neighboring country? You could use cardboard square chits like classic wargames.
Grenadier is pronounced "gren-a-deer." Many of their old figures are still in production through Mirliton, site at link. www.mirliton.it/
I believe e-M4 also has access to some of the old Grenadier sculpts!
One that passed me by in my D&D-obsessed youth.
WGRevival there are some pdf’s around of the rulebook as it’s out of print you might enjoy glancing through it for nostalgia alone if you were obsessed 😊
Yeah we played every lunchtime at school. It's where all this began.
If the drive was shorter, I would be curious to give the skirmish one a go.
ostrowulf I am curious about it myself one day I will try it out my plans are to try the mass battle first and that isn’t even the next on the list. However I must say I love some of those old Ral Partha/Grenadier models Cheers