I know it's complicated & i'm trying to find a way to pull this off. I am trying to observe the fact that combat happens in 6 seconds per round. I wanted to make a sort of speed chess method where around the table it's first action, second action & 3rd or more & so on. What those actions are depend on which player does which move to set up either their own or another's action. The speed part implies a quick decision making process adding an element of chaos to be sure. If a party in their rest periods has that conversation about "what you did here was great but seemed wasted since no one else was able to take advantage. If you waited until this moment or I delayed until you went that changes things greatly." I think of it as playing an audible in combat that had been discussed before they break camp. The same could work for watch rotations. Waking the guy who just was relieved means that person is sleepy & tired AF. Waking the next watch kind of makes more sense if the whole party isn't needed will account for the adrenaline high that the oncoming watch won't overcome before their watch starts & so on. Just a few ideas here.
I'm just starting to watch your videos but something bothered me, you look like someone but I couldn't remember until today... David Van Driessen (the hippie teacher from Beavis and Butthead)
Alternative to just going around the table: Players and DM roll one D20 each. Highest roll starts. Then his neighbor with the higher roll. From there on we go around the table in the direction we're already going. Optional: Seating must be rearenged every rest. Maybe by dice roll 😀
I've been saying this for years: the only thing that slows down combat in D&D is the player not knowing what they're doing. You can use any trick you want, you can roll the monster's initiatives previously, you can roll attack and damage at the same time, etc... not of that really matters if the players still don't know what to do or how their abilities works.
Great point. Players being knowledgeable and prepared probably has the greatest effect on combat time, but I think these other "tricks" can smooth out the rough edges
Every single time it's always some dumb dumb who wanted to play a full caster and wants to feel special looking through their spells. Then mocks the fighter for being done with their turn in a few seconds. Even with great weapon fighter, and multiple attacks with action surge my turn takes 30 seconds max. Move roll all your attacks. Divide them up if an attack kills and share the love with the next enemy(if you have movement) that's the turn. Magical lol
I was going to defend rolling attack and damage together saving a lot of time in my experience, but if my players knew what they were doing, it wouldn't save much time anymore
@Creatotron it also rewards interrupting the description of the scene. Basically the rudest player gets to attack first. I feel like this might be some kind of “gotch-ya.” Or playing both sides against the middle. I’m having a hard time believing this is an honest suggestion.
@Creatotron it also rewards interrupting the description of the scene. Basically the rudest player gets to attack first. I feel like this might be some kind of “gotch-ya.” Or playing both sides against the middle. I’m having a hard time believing this is an honest suggestion.
I've always loved the pause right after the DM says "roll for initiative". Its a great moment to get into combat mode and it gives you a few seconds to plan what you will do your first tur.
Same! It also gives you a few moments to process a plot line that resulted in a fight or process a big unexpected foe. You basically stretch that anticipation out instead of just dropping it
for me "roll initiative" was like a "entering combat" screen for Final Fantasy or something like that, specially when it's a boss it always get's me hyped
"Six cowled men emerge from the crowd. The glint of steel shines as they unsheathe concealed blades and converge upon your group. Assassins!" /Dramatic pause, DM looks around the table *"Roll for Initiative."* ^ Is kind of an iconic D&D trope, though. It would be sad to see it go.
I like using a mix of early bird and initiative order. I build my encounters on dndbeyond and automatically roll for monsters. But players that state action that make sense to resolve before initiative get to do it.
@@BobWorldBuilder Sometimes, depending on the table, I have initiative going outside of combat, too. It helps with online groups that interrupt one another frequently and for rowdy tables. :)
@@BobWorldBuilder One potential way to keep "roll for initiative" in for the large group size would be to have everyone roll initiative, and the highest roll is the one that starts the round robin for that combat. I don't know how that works in practice since I just came up with it. I've been looking for and trying out various initiative alternatives because it takes so long for us to figure out turn order, even though I have 5 players, which should be reasonable. I'm definitely giving the monsters go on 11 method a shot, or reworking it to minions go on turn 11, mini-bosses go on turn 13, bosses go on turn 15, and legendary creatures go on turn 17.
I like the idea of monsters in the middle- the only alteration I'd make is that instead of 'on 11', the monsters go on 'passive Initiative' (ie 10+dex). I think that would feel a little more dynamic, while still keeping the bulk of monsters around the middle (and making outliers special!)
Passive Initiative would also be good for PCs. 1. PCs with the same initiative bonus can choose who goes first. 2. Abilities that add to their initiative can easily be reworded as "Your Passive Initiative is calculated as 10 + your Dexterity modifier + [whatever additional bonus, such as Intelligence modifier for War Magic Wizards]". 3. Abilities that grant advantage on initiative could be refactored to be "When determining your initiative during combat, make an Initiative Check, using the result of this check in place of your Passive Initiative if it is higher."
@@deffdefying4803 for #3, you could also rule it the same way permanent advantage works for other passive skills, which is +5 to the relevant skill, so Passive Initiative for such a character would be 10+Dex+5
"No initiative" method was horrible in practice; table order initiative was pretty good but I had to figure out the most equitable way to insert monster turns into that. However, it disadvantages certain class abilities and high stats like taking away things like having an Advantage on initiative - I had some players express disappointment that their class abilities were essentially nullified. Group initiative is pretty good but suffers from same issues. My preferred way is to roll initiative once at the beginning of the session and then that's the initiative order for the rest of the session. If a player wants to reroll their initiative they have to take an action on their turn to pause, assess the situation, and then roll a new initiative (few players take that option).
I worried about this too, like the Alert feat and the barbarian ability. I would probably just give change those abilities to “you can always choose to Earlybird act” or you get a surprise round every combat.
As DM, you pick which PC is closest to a sudden monster appearance. Each combat, pick a new PC. Your players might catch on, if they pay attention, but you can also make sure that the injured PCs find low-level mooks, and buff heroes get set upon by a lieutenant of the Big Bad.
I did the Early Bird method when I first DMd, and a friend of mine is doing it now that he's starting to DM. My experience is the spell caster quickly turns into The Wizard from XP to Level 3. "I cast Fireball."
@@benvoliothefirst, or you tell them that fireball takes too long, but a cantrip or bonus action spell will work. We didn't let the fighter take his full attack action, and so we're not letting the caster perform a full casting action.
Change the verbiage to “I cast a spell” To be fair a cantrip is the most likely as burning a spell slot is unlikely. They also should be allowed to roll an intelligence check to see if they have an in character knowledge of what would work better (fire vs cold; charm vs attack)
So people in the comments don't want to use the system already in the game so they create a new system and then punish the players for adapting to that system and learning how to utilize it better? That sounds like a real great idea.
The best advice I've EVER recieved was to push minor bookkeeping tasks like initiative and time progression on select players. I'm lucky I have one player who loves to take initiative and discuss strats based on it and one that THRIVES on keeping track of the number of hours that pass in any given session. I can focus more on combat and story but still get that attention to detail that makes a campaign feel alive.
One thing I want to note that you seem to disregard, intentionally or not, I can not say, is that initiative is a stat, an ability check using your dexterity. It is a very useful stat, as high initiative is generally quite powerful. If you go early in the turn order, you might have earned yourself a whole extra turn in combat, and it gives you the opportunity to remove or deny the turns of enemy creatures either through debuffs or straight up killing them before they can act. Not only can a caster potentially swing a whole fight on the first turn if they go before the enemies, it is also useful for characters wanting to get into a good position to deal damage, stay safe or protect the party. Therefore some people build around it. There are many class features, spells, magic items and even a feat that improves your initiative roll, in addition to just increasing your dexterity and some people build around said features. My point is just that removing initiative can really change the game as it is a core mechanic that combat is built around and removing it nerfs some characters.
I agree, and this method either includes the initiative stat, or leaves it in the hands of the group. For example: If you have 1-3 players and they choose their initiative, hopefully they'll be nice and let the player with high initiative go first. If you have 4-6 and roll, no problem. If you have 7+ and go around the table, have them sit where you'll start the round.
Agreed, I'm playing an arcane trickster in a 5e game and I've considered the Alert feat for that +5 initiative. Because I need to go as soon as possible to both get proper positioning for sneak attacks and to cast spells like sleep and color spray. If you finick with how turns work too much then you mess with other aspects of the game.
@@slydoorkeeper4783 but if your group sets this as the standard for how you plan to do initiative for all future combats then you will know that you won’t need to grab alert and can instead grab a different feat that would be more beneficial to you and your group. What I’m getting at is this should be a rule established in session 0 so that you know this is how initiative will work moving forward and you can create a character accordingly. And remember if you don’t like this idea then just don’t use it.
One idea I've had that (but haven't had a chance to playtest yet) is that if you go without initiative rolls, but are hacking 5e so characters still have an initiative bonus, on the first round of combat, characters can add their initiative bonus to one attack roll, ability check, or defence roll (they declare they do so before rolling). If they get advantage on initiative then they get advantage on a roll of their choice too. That way characters who build around getting good initiative scores will be basically guaranteed to get off a good attack on the first round of combat
Has Initiative really been that big of a problem for people? The only issue I've ever had is when roll20 breaks and doesn't add people to the turn order
The roll20 turn order probably breaks because the player did not click on their token to make it active before either rolling a d20 in the vtt or using the initiative stat in their DnDBeyond character sheet through the beyond20 extension.
In person and online for me, initiative has never been an issue. The only time its been relative is when someone needed to answer a phone call or in my case, either my wifi decided to crash or I needed to switch computers. But after people got caught up it went back to no issues.
The transition from roleplay to combat can be greatly smoothed by having the players pre-roll initiative at the start of the session, then using that initiative when it comes up
Good Idea, but you might have to take sitational factors into account and have to switch it up later ... hmm. And I assume you reroll after each encounter for the next one?
great idea, then sit them acordingly. That way it's visualy easy to know who goes next but it also doesn't make initiative booster feats/magic items useless
Yeah, not a fan of the early bird rule. I think it encourages "shoot first, ask questions later" approach too much. One free turn at the beginning is a pretty strong incentive. If I were to adopt the early bird rule, I think I'll offer my player the choice: "You can take your action right now, but you'll forfeit your normal initiative spot in the first round, meaning you could potentially be waiting quite a bit until your turn comes in the second round. Are you sure you want to be the early bird?" Maybe that could be a workable tradeoff. I do like the idea of changing the initiative style depending on group size, and having all the minions go at the end while the main monster goes at a predetermined spot in the initiative order. I run games with 3 players, and I think they'll be amiable to this change. I ought to try it out.
I agree. I'm about to run the Umbrage Quest in Icespire peak and I feel that this would make my players immediately attack the manticore. I'm hoping that they consider roleplaying and convince the manticore to leave the lady, Adabra, alone, such as by bribing it.with food and / or healing it airh a potion. So I'm definitely not keen on encouraging shoot first, ask questions later. I think what I might try is that every round, or for every major battle (because I often have one sneak up behind them!) I'll have them ro) initiative - whoever rolls highest wins and then we go clockwise from there.
This is my thinking too. Many campaign have several interesting and intimidating foes that *could* be resolved with battle, but are more interestingly and satisfyingly resolved through non-lethal, semi-lethal, or RP-based means. Early Bird robs campaigns of this.
Rolling initiative is fun, thematic, and mechanically important. Getting a good initiative is an important consideration when building a character. I know there aren't many hot takes left in 5e, but there's no need to just ignore mechanics when the only real way of speeding up combat is having engaged and knowledgeable players
With a big table (7 players), I’ve had players roll and then go around the table from the high number. Let’s one player benefit from high initiative and have ease of knowing who’s next.
I wonder if this would help with encounters of large numbers of enemies, the ones that take forever to finish a round. My only worry with monsters in the middle though is a ton of bad guys swarming a PC on their group turn, potentially not allowing other PC's to intervene. Could easily break these monsters into groups and have a monsters either side of the middle player group :)
Yeah, the effectiveness definitely drops with high numbers of monsters. Then a more even distribution is best... but who knows if you would get that by rolling randomly either!
Yeah for normal size groups (4-6), I still recommend that! You could still have small groups do it without it taking much time, but for big groups, I'd rather minimize that pause before combat
Can see the early bird attack encouraging those itchy fingered players into trying to attack and take their shot before the more diplomatic players can get a word in. Not sure on that part
That's a good point. It really depends on playstyle. Most of my players are pretty experienced and usually try to talk their way through something, but if negotiations start to go sour, this gives them a chance to get a quick attack in before the combat technically starts
@@BobWorldBuilder I guess when it feels like this is happening the GM can quickly check with the rest of table before heading on. That brief moment check would have less distribution to the flow than rolling for initiative would.
Maybe they should be "tricked" a couple of times by having the aggressive reaction leading to bad consequences ? The bodyguard was ready for any attack and parry, the party got the wrong read on the real threat, attacking head front the hag leads to other fey creatures jumping out of the wood... Not systematically of course, but enough to understand they can't murder their way out of every discussion
I really liked the "monsters in the middle" approach, thanks! I have read something interesting in reddit, someone suggested a new state a bit lower than "normal surprise" which instead of free turn to the faster side, it gives advantage on initiative rolls to the faster side, it comes very handy sometimes and more balanced than the surprise in some cases.
Great video Bob! Great thoughts. Back when I played at a real table I often used the "go around the table" approach for any battle that wasn't a big boss fight. It worked well and the players were happy. Depending on the circumstances the monsters either got the early-bird attack or the players did which determined whether it started with the DM or started with the first player and the DM went last. That was generally fine. This was, like you say, a sort of surprise round option. Like you, I used static monster initiative when we rolled for initiative. It saved me a roll and helped the monsters not get hosed by starting at the very end of a boss fight. When playing online I've set up a macro using the Avrae Discord bot in which I already have everyone's initiative bonus and it auto-rolls for everyone and dumps out a list so everyone can see it. It's *way* faster than having everyone roll but players do feel like it is out of their hands and they get screwed when Avrae rolls low for them. Still, they've gotten over it and it's really fast to do. I expect D&D Beyond will soon have an auto-roll for initiative in their encounter builder which will be equally nice. I'm hoping to get back to a table soon for at least one of my games and will probably return to the "around the table" initiative system I've enjoyed in the past. Great topic!
Thanks Mike! It does seem like major VTTs have solved this age old issue, but my players definitely prefer rolling-- sometimes when D&D Beyond rolls low, they switch to real dice haha, so I don't think the macro would fly :P
I don't really agree with any of this. I find initiative is too core to the rules, and messing with it can de-rail combat quickly. I find the best way to do initiative is to pre-roll monsters that I know they will be coming up against, or maybe just pre-roll a load of d20s without DEX modifiers to change on the fly, and also get the players to roll initiative after a combat for the next combat, so there is very little difficulty in jumping into combat.
Ahh yes, pre-rolling was my first adjustment to initiative, but eventually I realized grouping enemies was nice for me. Rather than randomly roll every time, I just chose 11 and 1 as a way to keep it pre-determined and split them up
@@BobWorldBuilder - I posted this comment on another site, but I'm moving it here because you really do need to see this: Just no. To all of this. This heavily encourages players to jump on top of Cinematic narrative that the DM is trying to create, or more to the point it punishes players who are willing to wait for a DM to finish, and practically guarantees that SOMEONE is going to jump the gun the moment they hear something that could be construed as a threat. "You see a giant-" "I attack it!" "-crystal relic, the source of your quest, glowing with power, which you hit with your greatclub and shatter into pieces..." This also vastly overpower classes that specifically RELY on initiative, and gimp class/subclass that get features specifically giving bonuses to their initiative. If I'm an assassin, of course I'll choose to go first in initiative, EVERY. TIME. The whole point of rolling is that THE OPTIMAL RESULT DOESN'T ALWAYS HAPPEN. Sometimes you have a great plan but the monster goes before the lynchpin and throws everything into chaos. Sometimes everything is crap, but the monster rolls low and everyone gets to pile onto it before it can do its thing. THAT IS THE POINT OF D&D. And seriously, VTT? 99% of online D&D platforms (Fantasy Grounds, Roll20, Foundry, DnDBeyond) roll initiative with a single click and organize the entire turn order for you, what time are you even saving then? I started off just wanting to poke at some of the holes, but the further I thought about this, the more insulting it became that this aspect is just treated as a roadblock, when it is one of the most crucial aspects of the "you can TRY" philosophy.
@@GreyAcumen Absolutely this. I don't think Bob's method works for me. I've been playing both online and offline for multiple years and the biggest factor is not tracking or rolling it is people needing time to find their first action. This is even more apparent in online gaming. Also don't group monsters, especially bigger monsters. If a monster is closer in initiaitve order it gives insentive to be prioritised iin attacks. Multiple (stronger) monsters attacking at once, coordinated will take that advantage from the players. And as @Grey Acumen said, chaos is part of the narrative. Everyone is excited about the chances of combat. But playnning is only fun when you mix a little bit of chaos. Are you sticking to the plan or do you develop a new one? These interactions become boring. And you can always reorganize initiative by dropping if you really want to give up your initiative advantage for iit. This whole video is a "fix" for something that is not broken but an essential part of gameplay.
When I design encounters I always pre roll Monster initiative before the game even starts. I have custom sheets made up though with a 30-1 set of slots though it’s easy for me. Probably because I am ocd.
I’m not sure rolling initiative is the slow down; more the recording of order. A blend could be a quick ‘roll off’. Highest initiative starts. Second highest determines direction round table (for variation). This would account somewhat for initiative bonuses (including monsters) but still leaves a margin for the dice mix it up.
I have a plinko board and each character has a token associated and I let the faster characters drop first. I play with small groups so this works out nice. We get a little bit of randomness, fun mini game, and a visual reminder of the order.
The issue I have with this is that going earlier in the combat is a strategy for high dex characters. There are feats and magic items that give you a boost to your initiative roll, meaning that the developers wanted it to be a central part of combat. I understand wanting to speed up the game, but there are some dynamic shortfalls to that.
Yea, high dex characters get a bonus to initiative. You also have Alert which gives a +5. If i was high dex with Alert and my initiative was being negated by some arbitrary system which doesn't factor in my bonus I'd be pissed off. Especially if Passive Perception wasn't zeroed out in a similar way since that takes your Wisdom modifier into account.
In my current campaign, with four players, I have the players sit around the table in order of their initiative bonuses, with highest bonus player immediately to my left. At the start of each combat encounter, I roll a 1 v 1 initiative, with the monsters rolling against my highest initiative player using her own bonus. If she wins the roll, initiative starts with her. If I win the roll, initiative starts with monsters. I am really liking this, as it has greatly sped up the process, the players are better aware of when their upcoming turn in the order occurs, and yet it still rewards the players who wanted to build a character with a higher initiative bonus.
Dexterity is kind of a god stat in 5e. It adds to stealth, ranged attack damage, armor class, several of the most commonly used skills, and initiative. A bit of a nerf in initiative is no great loss. High dex characters will still find plenty of use for it.
i really like the monsters go on 11 and 1 idea! i think i just love the traditional concept of rolling. as i introduce my gf into dnd with 1 on 1 sessions i want her to feel the rush of rolling well and getting to do her paladin smiting before the monsters get to hit her.
I think, instead of at 11 and 1, maybe 10+Dex Mod and 1+Dex Mod -- faster monsters would be harder to hit. As the DM, you would know what these were beforehand, so you could still tell your players what those numbers would be.
In 2e AD&D, there was an archer kit (in Complete Book of Elves) that allowed a free shot before initiative. The PC had to announce they had an arrow nocked before encountering something. I wish 5e had more rules like this for classes.
Yeah I've known WAY too many players who would absolutely abuse that early-bird attack. That's why there's also plenty of advice out there that says the opposite: when the ranger says "I fire an arrow," that's when you call for initiative, and the ranger can't ACTUALLY make that attack until it's their turn.
Initiative is a lot like XP in the groups I've historical run and played in - the DM hates to do it, but the players look forward to it. People like 'going first'. I enjoy the early bird action idea, especially if someone could instead attempt a distraction/diplomacy attempt. Though, it does seem a lot of variant initiative is trying to solve the 'flow' of combat and player attention. For that certain telegraphing methods might work well too- mentioning who is next in the round after the current party member, winding up monsters attacks to give an idea of how the battle is turning, and narrating narrative flavor after a successful hit while damage is being rolled.
This is fantastic. This gave me an idea that’s a slight adjustment. Use the early bird idea and use that as the starting point for then going round the table from there. This way the order sort of changes each time.
Another initiative option for this system: Have the players determine their seating order. Everyone (DM included) rolls initiative as normal. The one who goes the highest goes first. Play then goes clockwise around the table from there. Option: In a surprise situation mix things up even more roll a d6 or something to determine if play goes clockwise or counterclockwise. You could do this either as a simple 50/50 roll or weight it more likely to go in reverse if the opposing side has surprise. This will make a huge difference on how the combats flow depending if they were intentional or thrust upon everyone! (BTW this system is based off of one for an RPG I am developing but also has similarities to the system/feel in Darkest Dungeon, only without the changing character order.)
I go 10 + Dex for all combatants. Those who are naturally fast go first, it makes sense, easy to keep track and easier to manage. But Imma try out your method to see if it works.
You have a pretty great voice, just wanted to start with that. My problem with your option for initiative here is when players spec into getting a higher initiative bonus. I once had a DM had us take turns around the table, but I had heavily invested into a speedster character who had an absurd bonus, and it was such a sour moment.
Thanks! Yeah for 4-6 players you'd still be rolling and the speedster bonus applies. For small or big groups, if your fellow players are reasonable, they should let such a character act first or have you sit in the right spot for it
I used to (and still) play a lot Call of Cthulhu or Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. In both games, the initiative is fixed and depends on a stat of the character. What I always did is to asked the players to sit around the table in the order of their initiative. Pretty efficient.
@@Poulpy37Cthulhu In the vanilla Warhammer rules the initiative is not fixed, it's 1d10 + Agility. Since Agility is a percentile value that hovers around 30 for humans, it's the main factor, but there's still quite a bit of variance. However, to speed up combat, I decided to forego the roll and just go in the order of Agility. Makes bookkeeping a lot easier.
I've been using a method taken from shadow of the demon Lord which speeds stuff up and allows for more setting each other up. Essentially you can take a fast or slow action. Fast is an action or movement, slow an action and movement. Just ask who's taking a fast action then do: Fast players Fast monsters Slow players Slow monsters The order they go is up to them
I do enjoy your tips here, and I have seen these in games I've done and been a part of. The round-the-table method would be sweet for in person games! I have always done initiative at the end of a long rest and keep it as a rolling total of how aware my players are. The key here is to change the mindset of what initiative can be, because it probably is more than reflexes in the moment. It's how strained your brain and body is plus how trained one is. So, I give the training the baseline at the beginning of the day and adjust the reflex abilities of the party throughout their day toward a combat and allow them agency to change it in preparation (with reason). So, they roll their initiative and it's locked for the day based on how well they slept or rested(the roll). I give positives and negatives for doing things to amp up their awareness prior to combat to give incentives for the common items that people often overlook and put weight and storage capacity (bags of holding are way too consistent and forgiving to me here, also Artifacers can break this) to the test. The initiative resets after the long rest. A short rest provides a bonus depending on what the players do during the rest. Although, if they are resting in a hostile situation, short resting can help monsters regroup or trigger them to the players presence in some way resulting in negative initiative overall. My fear with a lot of initiative stuff that doesn't roll is how it takes out some official, third party, and home brew things that add/subtract, or even move initiative around. I know my way isn't fool-proof, but it does what you're looking for in fluidity and provides an extra dimension for my players.
I want to like the Early Bird idea, but I'm concerned this would regress into a verbal "Duck-Duck-Goose" type scenario. How do you account for the fact that you as the DM know where every monster is, and thus you are always already primed to "act first", unless in the interest of fairness you impose some arbitrary post-encounter-explanation delay on yourself to not be able to "react as monster" to your own description? ----OR--- once players understand this process, wouldn't they just always naturally and obnoxiously "SHOTGUN!" you the second you get to what they think is the end of your description, thus preventing you from ever Early Birding them? to use your troll example, why wouldn't you, except to save face as DM, just say: You lock eyes with a troll who's raising a deer leg to its mouth--AND IN ANGER IT THROWS THE LEG AT YOU (attack). What's fair for the players/your Troll vis-a-vis reaction time?
If the DM is competitive, that would be a problem! If the DM wants players to succeed and roleplays monsters based on how they should act in the given scenario, you're all good
@@BobWorldBuilder maybe you can address this in your follow up video? Your response doesn’t feel like much of a solution...it sounds more like Early Bird is simply: always let players get a free attack lest you as DM come off as “competitive”. Regardless, good work and good luck fighting the horde of haters :)
I've started using the Encounter Builder and Combat Tracker on D&D Beyond. It's a really great tool. I ask my players to roll initiative at the beginning of the session to "pre-load" it into the first encounter if/when it happens. Then when the first encounter is completed, we roll again to "pre-load" again, and then rinse, repeat throughout the session. It doesn't break tension and combat, when it is triggered, happens immediately with no "loading screen". Works for my group.
I like it. The monster in the middle also lets support or healers become more meaningful. Yup my "Lockdown Locks" are a solid two years old ritual cast...
Glad you think so! Others have made a good argument that grouping monsters can make it hard for a healer to help before a character goes down. The way dnd works however, getting healed from unconsciousness is basically as effective as getting healed from low HP
Professor DM sent me here, great video. I have a group of 4 players and I’m gonna try the monster on 11 and 1, I already use something close to early bird when i made monsters stalk them, if successful monsters have the first attack but if they fail players got the firs action, but as I made them give me march order for travel and dungeon crawl I’m gonna use this method as well. How about keep the march order as theirs iniciative and monsters in the middle?
I'm a big fan of monsters in the middle, but I think early bird might mess with balance too much. I can see why it improves the transition into combat, but what about having that first turn be the start of the first round, and then go around the group clockwise from there? No need to roll initiative and start with a surprise turn. The downside is that having a good initiative modifier becomes less important. It can still be used sometimes to determine who goes first when the narrative doesn't determine it, but it's still a nerf to some features and feats. This can be solved by letting players readjust their characters if they feel they're being nerfed.
Thanks! Yeah for 4-6 players, they still get to roll, so speedy characters get their bonus. For small or big groups, it just comes down to the other players being reasonable about letting that fast PC go first or sit in the right spot to go first
your described scene of the character shooting the troll was good. the play should continue with the DM simply asking individuals what they are doing, assign DC for activities or make to hit rolls. as the scene unfolds, inject opponent actions as appropriate. by stopping the story to inject an arbitrary turn order, changes the whole sense of a role-playing scene into a tactical simulation. this disruption can reduce/remove important role-playing information due to the action economy rules of the combat mechanics.
Yea thats the problem I have with these systems. One of my players combines the chronurgy wizard (add int+Dex to initiative) with gift of alacrity (+d8 to initiative) altert feat (+5) and a dagger of warding to go first and control the battlefield. Then, one day, they would sit at the wrong side of the table and go last, when the -2 Dex fighter goes first and the -3 dex monster also goes before the wizard.
@@leonpetrich5864 I mean, there is a rather simple fix to this. Let him go first if he reaaally cares that much and has made an effort to build the character to have high Initiative.
1-3 players: the other 2 players should be reasonable and let the speedy character go first! 4-6: they roll, so no problem. 7+: hopefully the DM is reasonable and lets the speedy player sit in the right spot to go first!
Why complicate it so much? Just use basically a passive initiative, just like passive perception. 10 + your dex mod +and additions you have and boom, initiative for everyone that the DM can just write down and always use. Plus the same can be done for monsters so everyone is on the same page.
This is why I like to play with Roll20. I can just bulk roll all tokens and the turn tracker in Roll20 sorts them automatically. I use some API/plugins to achieve this, but the time from initiative rolls to battle start is like 2 seconds.
Yes, in Fantasy Grounds all initiatives are rolled with a mouse click. This solves the issue. On person I use two distinct methods, for 4 or more players, one generic roll at the begining of the combat for the whole group and then, on the player's turn, they choose who goes first. This encourages collaboration. On 3 players or less, I have been using classical method.
Huh. I usually just play a clip of James Brown screaming "I feel good!", but I don't turn it off until everyone gets their initiative rolled. Incidentally, they roll and determine order quickly. Your idea has a bit more class, although it will make it harder for me to expose everyone to the King of Soul. Although, I guess I could have a boss NPC who is the King of the Land of Soul and just call it a day.
In my experience, having monsters go on an 11 will have them going after more than half the initiative-rolling players (because if they have a choice players will have some bonus to Dexterity nine characters out of ten, but it is a good idea.
@@BobWorldBuilder The obvious change would be to let them go on 11 plus their initiative modifier, but that ruins the elegance of your system. I think I may try it your way first, before experimenting.
Been playing D&D and RPGs since the 80s, all sorts of group sizes (3 - 9) all sorts of combat scenarios, all sorts of mob mixes. TBH rolling initiative and keeping track with just paper and pencil was never a time consuming thing and always added to the combat. Folks might be overthinking thinking this a bit...
@@BobWorldBuilder Fair enough my friend. Whatever works best for your table. I do appreciate the perspective. Keep putting out your great content!!! Cheers
The problem I see with this is that not all monsters and characters are created equal. The initiative stat is an extremely powerful stat, more so than people think. Increase the probability of starting a combat by only five percent can increase the probability of winning the fight by up to 40%! Especially for fights that are about equal. It is that powerful! Having a static initiative can disproportionately nerf/buff characters. For balance and strategy sake, no matter the initiative method, it must be random. Of course, if you value combat speed and story immersion, by all means, put it static. But be aware that your are removing some of the unpredictableness of the game, which is a core mechanic.
I've never heard those stats of relating initiative to probability of winning! That's a great point and I love how you phrased it in a constructive way. Thanks for commenting! :)
@@BobWorldBuilder The statistics come from a fight simulator I developed for 3.5E where I wanted to test class and ability balancing. In some very contrived situations ( like two level 1 fighters with longswords) where both sides are almost identical, I noticed the main factor for winning was the initiative (in hindsight, it's kinda obvious) more so than increasing damage, increasing attack bonus, or increasing AC. Which made me realize the importance of being the first to hit. Even in reality, i.e. LARPing, the first one to hit is often the one who will win.
I like the "players choose order" quite a bit, it reminds me of how the initiative system in Lancer works. I think it works for groups up to 7 regardless
@@BobWorldBuilder Lancer is a great Mech RPG, has some similarities to D&D 4e when it comes to combat, but smartly grabbed much of the out of combat rules from blades in the dark to fill out that area. I would definitely recommend taking a look at it.
I generally play high dex characters, so naturally, I don't love any of this. Playing on VTTs makes it extremely easy to roll initiative for each character and monster and keep the order with no fuss. In in person games or solo, I'm a fan of group initiative, at least for monster types. I also don't mind group initiative for the PCs, applying the highest dex modifier to the roll for both PCs and monsters. When I'm playing solo, I tend to do group initiative with a d10....the reason I use a d10 instead of a d10 is I tend to solo using a system that incorporates elements of 5e as well as elements of old school games like B/X and Basic Fantasy. Those use a d6 for initiative (too many ties), so I feel a d10 is a good compromise between the two systems that I'm combining.
These ideas are novel. I personally dislike individual initiative because it makes working together feel awkward and needlessly contrived, so I do either group initiative or no initiative. In the cases it is paramount that someone does manage to go first I can always call for a roll at that particular moment.
Thank you! Yes, I'd like to experiment more with combo attacks. That was a homebrew adjustment we used in my first campaign before we learned he rules and it was tons of fun!
The early bird is a good idea. I was toiling with something like that but didn't really work. I had the player who initiated if there was one get a +10 on initiative in the first round. The attacked monster could then try and react with a dex check DC was the initiative of the player. While the idea is ok was way too much hassle. Going around the table takes away all chance and I don't like that. Another tought would be to continue the round from the early bird player after rollling initiative. So rolling high might mean not being first.
I've gamed with someone who always tried to get free surprise sucker punches by (reliably) yelling out an attack or spell while in the middle of dialogue. It got stale really quick. This seems like a good rule for the most low level of lowest level newbie players. But it ignores too many character intracies for me. Too many players able to dump their Dex and initiative but still get the benefits of going first just because they sit to the left of the DM. Simple, balanced, fun - pick two. Sometimes a little complexity is necessary
But then there are certain abilities that become useless. My barbarian gets advantage on initiative rolls, but this class ability would essentially not exist with going around the table.
I haven't tried it yet, but I was thinking of using 10+ (DEX or INT) mod+ prof. bonus for initiative. Quick thinking seems just as important as quick action, hence DEX or INT. By including proficiency bonuses, PCs have an edge over your typical monsters, but high powered monsters have an edge with higher stats and prof. bonuses. I have also considered just replacing the D20 for initiative rolls with a D10 because I do like variability. I just feel that there is too much unpredictability with a D20 when a character has 20 DEX but rolls a pesky 1 while a monster with 9 DEX rolls a 20 and goes before everybody who should be faster. A third option is just adding proficiency to the initiative roll since PCs usually have the higher bonus and this would also simulate a more experienced character having a better reaction time because of said experience. These are just some ideas. I don't know if they'll work better.
Hey Bob, just discovered your channel the other day and really enjoy the content! I personally use the turn order system from Wrath and Glory 2.0 for my 5e games, as I have found it to be the quickest for my groups. The turn system starts by the players choosing who goes first, and after each player turn it is an enemy turn. (I also do the narrative "early bird gets the worm" attack stuff as well.) For example. 1. player decide PC-1 goes first 2. DM decides which monster's turn 3. players decide PC-4 goes now 4. dm decides which monster's turn. so on and so forth. Generally I just order the monsters in the order of "who is narratively fastest" or by order of minions>normals>elites>bosses. Sometimes I include some monsters that are "very fast" that break the normal order and go monster first rather than player. The system works a bit better in wrath and glory 2.0 but I still like it in 5e as well! Keep up the great videos!
3:09 “No initiative” sounds great if you have reasonable people involved, but then any system (including “let’s just wing it”) will work fine. The true test of a system is how well does it survive contact with the enemy, how does it work under adverse conditions (e.g. a tired and cranky DM with their own creative agenda, or simply a need to wrap things up “soon”).
I personally prefer *Passive Initiative* (10+Dex) or setting an *Initiative Score* (Dex score). I think it's only fair that a character with super high Dexterity is always the one acting first, or even a character with the Alert feat or Advantage on Initiative checks (for whatever reason). When using *Passive Initiative* you add the +5 bonus from the Alert feat as normal. Advantage in passive checks give you a +5 bonus, while disadvantage subtracts -5. If a character has Dex 20 (+5 bonus) + Alert + Advantage on Initiative checks = 25 is your maximum *Passive Initiative* unless the PC has a way to increase their Dex beyond 20. When using *Initiative Scores* the bonus from both the Alert feat and Advantage on Initiative checks is reduced to +2 each. This is to balance things out since the natural cap for Ability Scores is 20. So, a Dex 20 + Alert + Advantage on Initiative checks = a 24 *Initiative Score* maximum unless the PC has a way to increase their Dex beyond 20. Both methods work in my experience, the difference is that the later starts higher than the former, but the fomer can go a bit higher in the end.
I've been playing D&D since 1st ed (early 1977). I've seen the game evolve through every incarnation. I've tried just about every shortcut and 'alternative method' of game play imaginable. Though well meaning, I've not found many that are actually worth their salt. The suggestions here are not exceptions. Every time an alteration is made to the most basic - and critical - mechanics there is a change to game 'balance' that can disrupt overall play both in the short and long terms. The lesson I've learned in 44 years of play is to leave rule changes to the professional game designers. Do what you want - after all it is your game, but do you want to play D&D or an amateur knockoff? When WotC rebuilt the game for 3e, they caused an internal defection which birthed Pathfinder - a rival which took the popular market away from them. It wasn't until 5e that they figured out what they did wrong and brought the game back to something much closer to the original - which is what the masses seemed to want - and returned to the top of the genre. Learn from history.
With the VTT I'm using, I can usually get the turn order setup with all the monsters rolling initiative before all my players finish rolling themselves, so it rarely takes more than 10-20 seconds to get it rolling. (usually closer to 5). I should probably say, I don't do individual initiative for each monster, each monster "group" get 1 roll. And I spend a decent amount of time preparing out of session.
Hey Bob, I don‘t like your early bird system and here is why: It favors the fast thinking, „loud“ early Player. And sometimes it is Good That certain things are Not set before the monsters- red Dragon approches oh i cast Protection from Fire really fast. Okay after That the red dragon bursts out his odem of flames???? Meh What you can do to transit from rpg to combat more smoothly is to collect say 5 rolls of Initiative at the start of the game from the players, Write it down and then use it in a mixed Order when combat occures. But use all! When empty on orders get new from the players. What helps here is a method to show of the players the order like a flag pole or stickers on the gm screen
I prefer rolling for initiative. I use roll20 and have a macro that automatically allows players to roll and have their initiative get sent to the turn order chart, so it's pretty trivial. The thing that really speeds up combat is that I impose a 5 second countdown the moment a player starts dithering, telling them that if they don't tell me what they do before I count down, they stay still and dodge for the round. Another thing that I find helps is reminding people when their turn is coming up. "Player X, it's your turn, Player Y, get ready" said just before asking what X does reminds Y that this is the moment they should be thinking about their turn. Do that enough times, and it becomes a habit.
I actually roll monster initiatives before the session as part of my prep. Then, when my players roll initiative, I ask them for their initiative in whatever order I have their tokens set up on Roll20 (the initiative tracker thing). My players tend to know what they're doing in combat, and if they take too long on their turn I usually give them a nudge verbally. It runs smooth enough I think.
I don't like it. My way of speeding combat is to tell them battle is fast if they need to think and haven't done it already it means that character is shocked and skips turn, even if they ask me what is happening which I just described means their character is assessing battlefield and skips turn while I describe everything once again for them
Or, hear me out. If you have combat planned for the session, ask the group members to preroll the initiative at the start of the combat. Then you make a few rolls for your monsters at the start of the session as well. Then, when combat starts, you already have to order set up. You just adjust a little with monster modifiers, and done.
How do you deal with specific classes that have features that give them bonuses to initiative? Like Swashbucklers or people who take the Improved Initiative feat? Seems like this style of doing Initiative would discourage people from playing those without an alternative class feature. I think changing how Initiative works isn't the way to speed up combat per say as realistically it only takes up the first minute of combat to get everything settled and then you'll be in the same flow you would be anyway. Only way I have found to speed up combat- which is really only an issue with larger encounters with more monsters is keep a monsters turn simple in terms of description unless it managed to do one of the following: A: Using a specific ability for the first time to give the party a chance to notice they can do this. B: Successfully land an attack or ability. C: Preform some non-directly combat related action like talking, planning, or repositioning with allies. Otherwise they take their turn, try, and either are successful or fail. If Fail just move on and only occasionally describe the failure. As the DM you'll be taking up most of the turns in these combats and if you really wanna stream line things you can do your best this way. Players will take their time to think and do things, players only get one turn after all to have their fun and then its time to wait and see what happens.
Very simple! If you have 1-3 players and they choose their initiative, hopefully they'll be nice and let the player with high initiative go first. If you have 4-6 and roll, no problem. If you have 7+ and go around the table, have them sit where you'll start the round.
I just realized I do the "early bird technique" by accident. If I describe a scene with monsters, and one of my players says "I shoot an arrow" I always handle that arrow first before I roll for Initiative. Otherwise it feels super weird if that player rolls bad and gets its attack resolved 10 mins later besides him having seized the opportunity. I never have problems with players always shouting first. I think I will try the fixed Initiative on 11 (and 1) for monsters too!
Here is an idea derived from the miniatures game Bolt Action. At the top of everyone's character sheet write a number. The monsters get two numbers as well. Put chits with corresponding numbers in a bag or cup and randomly draw for who goes next. It's fast, changes things, raises the tension, keeps everyone engaged and thinking more tactically. It's just another method. Having played every type of game conceivable since the 1960's I realized that in the end all methods work as well as any other from IGOUGO to completely random.
Going around the table seems a little unfair to me because there are characters with high dexterity score that should act first abd taking that away from the player who has high dexterity is not fair, also it really hurts the alert fear that gives you bouns 5 to initiative, i just use passive initiative for monsters or if i feel like it i roll all of the initiative before the session and has them rwiten on a paper already
I have an ideo I want to try. Have the players roll initiative after combat and use those rolls for the next combat. That way you dont have to stop the game every time combat starts and it'll slow things down a bit after the high of combat.
my problem with around the table is that if I have a boss and say 10 minions they all go at once or worst the winery scene in CoS where the party gets jumped by almost 2 dozen creatures all the enemies go at once then all the players.
In my experience when all the monsters go at the same time, then a player gets ganged up on without the players having an opportunity to do anything about it, or the monsters all die before they can do anything. This can happen with the initiative roles but it breaks up how often it happens
Not going to lie, I feel like the early bird initiative idea is the reason 5e moved from suprise being a round of combat to being a condition. Which is something I think many people forget is a thing.
I find that this kind of subverting initiative can really hinder a player who took a subclass such as swashbuckler because the higher initiative looked good or alert feat or ways to get advantage on initiative checks
I tend to do something similar: the monsters will always take their turn at their initiative bonus plus 10. I’m intrigued by the idea of minions going last. I may adapt that to my method.
I love the early bird attack, but I guess I’m confused on turn 11 for 4-6 players. If i have 4 players with 2 NPC’s like I do in my Strahd wouldn’t i just have them roll initiative, then go as follows- PC 1 & 2-combat order 1st and 2nd All monsters-combat order 3rd PC 3 & 4-combat order 5th and 6th NPC’s 1 & 2- combat order 7th and 8th All monsters- combat order 9th Repeat Or am I making this too hard?
I like monsters going on 11 (as if they rolled 11) because it gives the PCs a number to beat, and it roughly divides them in half. But of course, go with whatever makes the most sense for you and your players!
This isn't really adding anything.. nothing is even being modified... Idk rolling a D20 and doing some basic addition seems easier than having an 11 (easy) skill check using your dex modifier. "then raise the skill check!" Well yeah, that's why we roll the dice. Bosses will likely go first because they're getting huge bonuses, and minions will go last *usually*. And the combat transition is what everyone already does. I have yet to play with a DM that would respond to "I attack X" with "roll initiative and we'll see if your hasty decision happened!". NO they let it go through and do combat as usual or have a Dex save vs the NPC who was thinking the exact same thing.
Hey Bob. I think you got some very cool ideas there. I will probably try out some of these next time i get to play at a real table. But with my groups playing online, I can't agree that those things speed up the game for all groups. We are 6 player + me the GM and we play on Roll20. But Initiative only takes 10 seconds, because with the use of a macro button, everyone clicks and the initiative is done. Two clicks later and its sorted,the group has their sheets ready and the fight can start. So for all R20 Users out there I can recommend the macros, with my expierience. Still no guarantee for any method. Wish you all a lucky NAT 20 o/
I'm not sold on the early bird just because (as others have stated) I feel like it causes a monster "gold rush" for my fast talkers and my shy players and thoughtful players will not get a chance to participate first. I REALLY love the "monsters go on 11" idea though. I'm incorporating that into my homebrew rules today! I love the notion that the players feel like they win by rolling higher than 11. I've been watching a lot of your videos and they have all had amazing nuggets of wisdom! Thank you and I hope you keep up the content....you got my sub and a donation for all your great work.
It seems that Bob's initiative method is the ideal solution for his very specific group of players. Your shy player is a solid example of how this method creates a bigger problem than it solves. There are so many scenarios in which the early bird tweak -- just that part alone -- fails that I would say most groups are better off using rules as written than this method.
I have started experimenting with a method similar to the 4-6 player style. But I set the DC for initiative per encounter. Usually the average dex modifier of the monsters +10 (I just approximate the average I don't actually spend time calculating it). I tell what the DC is, like "Roll initiative, DC 13" So the players can instantly know if they are before or after the monsters. I haven't tried having the monsters act in 2 groups, maybe I will experiment with that.
Honestly I like the way Dungeon World handles it. However that game's mechanics are set up to do it. For straight up D&D I do go clockwise around the table and never roll initiative - heck even in Dungeon World, it just makes the most sense and gets to the action. The only other way I like is the OSE every round players and monsters roll a D6 and winner gets to go first - but still around the table ;-) Good video Bob, I'm a big fan of Professor DM as well!
my initiative goes like this. players all roll a D20, one at a time. I allow the bad guys to act first if I feel the players are taken by surprise and vice versa. I jot down their results in order, on a sheet with rows labeled 1 through 20, with a new column for every round of combat. as each player acts, I write down a short note about what their action was. "attack missed" fireball 36 damage" "cure minor wounds +8hp " ect. My bad guys take their turns all at once. This not only speeds things up, but also adds a little bit of tension. As each player acts, I announce who goes next by referencing my combat sheet.
This certainly will do it’s job to remove hassle and make the transition from scenery to combat easier but I think it’s give the players a massive a advantage your giving them every preference. If your party knows it’s likely to go before the monster, which is more likely because your removing it’s dexterity modifier and therefore the game’s internal logic trying to capture how quick-written or speedy the monster is. The party can develop strategies to press this advantage. Always using positioning or debuff spells before the enemy turn. And what about effect like Hex (Dexterity), Poisons or Cutting Words to decrease monster ability checks. Is that now an initiative of 6 or lower. I think a Dm would find it difficult for a fine tuned party to not seriously denote it’s turns before they ever happen. The intrinsic chaos that know one know where they’ll end up, but can assume some average of 10 + Initiative modifier means the players have to adapt to perfect or imperfect situations all the time. If you want a static number than it should be 10 + Dex mod, but even then let the monster roll with the group.
I think these are great options for different kinds of moments in the session/campaign. Sometimes it’s all I’s dotted and T’s crossed... other times it’s pc’s round the table, monsters go, PCs go. If someone has high initiative build, then that should usually play into a casual style to not undercut their build. Simplifying is FOR playing into the story and I think if your players are with it, it’s really cool :) Obviously rude loud players would not be allowed to reap benefits when this style is enacted at the right table. 👍✨✌️
Yeah. If you have 1-3 players and they choose their initiative, hopefully they'll be nice and let the player with high initiative go first. If you have 4-6 and roll, no problem. If you have 7+ and go around the table, have them sit where you'll start the round. As for rude/loud players, it should go without saying (but I guess would need to be said at some tables) that the early bird reaction should come after a "what do you do?" from the DM
Personally I think initiative rolls add a bit of tension to the game because everyone likes to know where they fall in the order and build a bit of nervousness. However! I like the idea of monsters having a set turn number, but would adjust for real BBEGs at higher levels of play (6 or 7 and onward) to be 19. Boss 19 Tough 11, Henches 1
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I know it's complicated & i'm trying to find a way to pull this off. I am trying to observe the fact that combat happens in 6 seconds per round. I wanted to make a sort of speed chess method where around the table it's first action, second action & 3rd or more & so on. What those actions are depend on which player does which move to set up either their own or another's action. The speed part implies a quick decision making process adding an element of chaos to be sure. If a party in their rest periods has that conversation about "what you did here was great but seemed wasted since no one else was able to take advantage. If you waited until this moment or I delayed until you went that changes things greatly." I think of it as playing an audible in combat that had been discussed before they break camp. The same could work for watch rotations. Waking the guy who just was relieved means that person is sleepy & tired AF. Waking the next watch kind of makes more sense if the whole party isn't needed will account for the adrenaline high that the oncoming watch won't overcome before their watch starts & so on. Just a few ideas here.
I'm just starting to watch your videos but something bothered me, you look like someone but I couldn't remember until today... David Van Driessen (the hippie teacher from Beavis and Butthead)
Why not just give everyone a "roll" of 10. So if they have an initiative of 4, they always default at 14. The same with monsters.
Alternative to just going around the table:
Players and DM roll one D20 each. Highest roll starts. Then his neighbor with the higher roll. From there on we go around the table in the direction we're already going. Optional: Seating must be rearenged every rest. Maybe by dice roll 😀
I've been saying this for years: the only thing that slows down combat in D&D is the player not knowing what they're doing. You can use any trick you want, you can roll the monster's initiatives previously, you can roll attack and damage at the same time, etc... not of that really matters if the players still don't know what to do or how their abilities works.
Great point. Players being knowledgeable and prepared probably has the greatest effect on combat time, but I think these other "tricks" can smooth out the rough edges
I feel like you sit in on my games. It's always, "OK, your turn, what do you do?" "Uhhhh...what does this character class ability do again?" Facepalm.
Every single time it's always some dumb dumb who wanted to play a full caster and wants to feel special looking through their spells. Then mocks the fighter for being done with their turn in a few seconds. Even with great weapon fighter, and multiple attacks with action surge my turn takes 30 seconds max. Move roll all your attacks. Divide them up if an attack kills and share the love with the next enemy(if you have movement) that's the turn. Magical lol
I was going to defend rolling attack and damage together saving a lot of time in my experience, but if my players knew what they were doing, it wouldn't save much time anymore
I just don't have the mental capacity to remember my mods for some reasona
Knowing my players if I gave them the option for an early bird attack I'd have a whole lot of dead NPCs that never got the chance to speak.
Ha ha, I think the solution there is to have them start to speak right away before the players attack.
This might be the worse suggestion I’ve ever seen for changing initiative.
@Creatotron it also rewards interrupting the description of the scene. Basically the rudest player gets to attack first. I feel like this might be some kind of “gotch-ya.” Or playing both sides against the middle. I’m having a hard time believing this is an honest suggestion.
@Creatotron it also rewards interrupting the description of the scene. Basically the rudest player gets to attack first. I feel like this might be some kind of “gotch-ya.” Or playing both sides against the middle. I’m having a hard time believing this is an honest suggestion.
Oh no!
I've always loved the pause right after the DM says "roll for initiative". Its a great moment to get into combat mode and it gives you a few seconds to plan what you will do your first tur.
Same! It also gives you a few moments to process a plot line that resulted in a fight or process a big unexpected foe. You basically stretch that anticipation out instead of just dropping it
for me "roll initiative" was like a "entering combat" screen for Final Fantasy or something like that, specially when it's a boss it always get's me hyped
At my table players have always enjoyed and been invested in rolling for initiative. I don't know why everyone is trying to "fix" it.
It also fairly accurately simulates that "Everything seemed to slow down" moment you read about and see in a lot of media
"Six cowled men emerge from the crowd. The glint of steel shines as they unsheathe concealed blades and converge upon your group. Assassins!"
/Dramatic pause, DM looks around the table
*"Roll for Initiative."*
^ Is kind of an iconic D&D trope, though. It would be sad to see it go.
Haha exactly, with this method you still get to say it for normal sized groups :P
"In the middle of the room you see a wooden chest. Roll for initiative."
I like using a mix of early bird and initiative order. I build my encounters on dndbeyond and automatically roll for monsters. But players that state action that make sense to resolve before initiative get to do it.
@@BobWorldBuilder Sometimes, depending on the table, I have initiative going outside of combat, too. It helps with online groups that interrupt one another frequently and for rowdy tables. :)
@@BobWorldBuilder One potential way to keep "roll for initiative" in for the large group size would be to have everyone roll initiative, and the highest roll is the one that starts the round robin for that combat. I don't know how that works in practice since I just came up with it. I've been looking for and trying out various initiative alternatives because it takes so long for us to figure out turn order, even though I have 5 players, which should be reasonable. I'm definitely giving the monsters go on 11 method a shot, or reworking it to minions go on turn 11, mini-bosses go on turn 13, bosses go on turn 15, and legendary creatures go on turn 17.
Professor DungeonMaster highly approves.
Hey! Thank you, Professor. Looks like a number of people found this video through a post of yours. Much appreciated!
Collab when?
If he says its good. Its good.
I like the idea of monsters in the middle- the only alteration I'd make is that instead of 'on 11', the monsters go on 'passive Initiative' (ie 10+dex). I think that would feel a little more dynamic, while still keeping the bulk of monsters around the middle (and making outliers special!)
That's a good tweak! Thanks for commenting :)
Hey! Just wrote this exact same comment haha, glad to see this makes some sense beyond my own caffeine addled mind.
Nice work! 🤝
Passive Initiative would also be good for PCs.
1. PCs with the same initiative bonus can choose who goes first.
2. Abilities that add to their initiative can easily be reworded as "Your Passive Initiative is calculated as 10 + your Dexterity modifier + [whatever additional bonus, such as Intelligence modifier for War Magic Wizards]".
3. Abilities that grant advantage on initiative could be refactored to be "When determining your initiative during combat, make an Initiative Check, using the result of this check in place of your Passive Initiative if it is higher."
Pocketing this one for my home game.
@@deffdefying4803 for #3, you could also rule it the same way permanent advantage works for other passive skills, which is +5 to the relevant skill, so Passive Initiative for such a character would be 10+Dex+5
"No initiative" method was horrible in practice; table order initiative was pretty good but I had to figure out the most equitable way to insert monster turns into that. However, it disadvantages certain class abilities and high stats like taking away things like having an Advantage on initiative - I had some players express disappointment that their class abilities were essentially nullified. Group initiative is pretty good but suffers from same issues. My preferred way is to roll initiative once at the beginning of the session and then that's the initiative order for the rest of the session. If a player wants to reroll their initiative they have to take an action on their turn to pause, assess the situation, and then roll a new initiative (few players take that option).
Pre-rolling is another great fix to the problem of initiative slowing things down!
I also use that reroll rule
I worried about this too, like the Alert feat and the barbarian ability. I would probably just give change those abilities to “you can always choose to Earlybird act” or you get a surprise round every combat.
Means the players can seat in initiative order around the table as well.
@@joemacleod-iredale2888 Yes, was going to point out the same thing
Early bird attack seems like a good way to encourage the players to all shout at you at once.
"I ATTACK!"
It definitely depends on player attitude and the types of characters they play
As DM, you pick which PC is closest to a sudden monster appearance. Each combat, pick a new PC. Your players might catch on, if they pay attention, but you can also make sure that the injured PCs find low-level mooks, and buff heroes get set upon by a lieutenant of the Big Bad.
I did the Early Bird method when I first DMd, and a friend of mine is doing it now that he's starting to DM. My experience is the spell caster quickly turns into The Wizard from XP to Level 3. "I cast Fireball."
Haha, I'm hearing that from other comments as well. They still have to learn not to shoot from the hip :P
@@BobWorldBuilder Time to introduce casting failures and magical mishaps!
@@benvoliothefirst, or you tell them that fireball takes too long, but a cantrip or bonus action spell will work. We didn't let the fighter take his full attack action, and so we're not letting the caster perform a full casting action.
Change the verbiage to “I cast a spell” To be fair a cantrip is the most likely as burning a spell slot is unlikely. They also should be allowed to roll an intelligence check to see if they have an in character knowledge of what would work better (fire vs cold; charm vs attack)
So people in the comments don't want to use the system already in the game so they create a new system and then punish the players for adapting to that system and learning how to utilize it better? That sounds like a real great idea.
The best advice I've EVER recieved was to push minor bookkeeping tasks like initiative and time progression on select players. I'm lucky I have one player who loves to take initiative and discuss strats based on it and one that THRIVES on keeping track of the number of hours that pass in any given session. I can focus more on combat and story but still get that attention to detail that makes a campaign feel alive.
Totally, DM assistants can really keep the game moving! :)
Great idea!
I like the idea of monsters go on 11 and minions on 1. Also, lair effects on 20!
Thanks! Yes can't forget those lair effects!
One thing I want to note that you seem to disregard, intentionally or not, I can not say, is that initiative is a stat, an ability check using your dexterity. It is a very useful stat, as high initiative is generally quite powerful. If you go early in the turn order, you might have earned yourself a whole extra turn in combat, and it gives you the opportunity to remove or deny the turns of enemy creatures either through debuffs or straight up killing them before they can act. Not only can a caster potentially swing a whole fight on the first turn if they go before the enemies, it is also useful for characters wanting to get into a good position to deal damage, stay safe or protect the party. Therefore some people build around it. There are many class features, spells, magic items and even a feat that improves your initiative roll, in addition to just increasing your dexterity and some people build around said features.
My point is just that removing initiative can really change the game as it is a core mechanic that combat is built around and removing it nerfs some characters.
I agree, and this method either includes the initiative stat, or leaves it in the hands of the group. For example: If you have 1-3 players and they choose their initiative, hopefully they'll be nice and let the player with high initiative go first. If you have 4-6 and roll, no problem. If you have 7+ and go around the table, have them sit where you'll start the round.
Agreed, I'm playing an arcane trickster in a 5e game and I've considered the Alert feat for that +5 initiative. Because I need to go as soon as possible to both get proper positioning for sneak attacks and to cast spells like sleep and color spray. If you finick with how turns work too much then you mess with other aspects of the game.
@@slydoorkeeper4783 but if your group sets this as the standard for how you plan to do initiative for all future combats then you will know that you won’t need to grab alert and can instead grab a different feat that would be more beneficial to you and your group. What I’m getting at is this should be a rule established in session 0 so that you know this is how initiative will work moving forward and you can create a character accordingly. And remember if you don’t like this idea then just don’t use it.
@@billfrosby8081 tbf though, even without the +5 to initiative, the anti surprise mechanic is still nice (in a niche way.).
One idea I've had that (but haven't had a chance to playtest yet) is that if you go without initiative rolls, but are hacking 5e so characters still have an initiative bonus, on the first round of combat, characters can add their initiative bonus to one attack roll, ability check, or defence roll (they declare they do so before rolling). If they get advantage on initiative then they get advantage on a roll of their choice too. That way characters who build around getting good initiative scores will be basically guaranteed to get off a good attack on the first round of combat
That's what I was doing wrong! Cutting my hair the whole time while learning to DM.
It's an easily overlooked mistake that many beginner DMs make 💇🚫
That's where my DM powers come from!
I'd award inspiration for this comment! Have a like.
Has Initiative really been that big of a problem for people? The only issue I've ever had is when roll20 breaks and doesn't add people to the turn order
Haha, yeah VTTs have solved pretty much all of these issues too :P
The roll20 turn order probably breaks because the player did not click on their token to make it active before either rolling a d20 in the vtt or using the initiative stat in their DnDBeyond character sheet through the beyond20 extension.
We're talking about when people are playing without Roll20.
In person and online for me, initiative has never been an issue. The only time its been relative is when someone needed to answer a phone call or in my case, either my wifi decided to crash or I needed to switch computers. But after people got caught up it went back to no issues.
The transition from roleplay to combat can be greatly smoothed by having the players pre-roll initiative at the start of the session, then using that initiative when it comes up
Great point!
Good Idea, but you might have to take sitational factors into account and have to switch it up later ... hmm.
And I assume you reroll after each encounter for the next one?
great idea, then sit them acordingly. That way it's visualy easy to know who goes next but it also doesn't make initiative booster feats/magic items useless
I love my VTT software. I roll one button and everyone is in initiative order, no fuss about anything.
That's magical :D
Yeah, I love it. It also gets rid of the (for me) boring "all monsters of a type get the same initiative". It makes each encounter much more dynamic.
Yeah, not a fan of the early bird rule. I think it encourages "shoot first, ask questions later" approach too much. One free turn at the beginning is a pretty strong incentive. If I were to adopt the early bird rule, I think I'll offer my player the choice: "You can take your action right now, but you'll forfeit your normal initiative spot in the first round, meaning you could potentially be waiting quite a bit until your turn comes in the second round. Are you sure you want to be the early bird?" Maybe that could be a workable tradeoff.
I do like the idea of changing the initiative style depending on group size, and having all the minions go at the end while the main monster goes at a predetermined spot in the initiative order. I run games with 3 players, and I think they'll be amiable to this change. I ought to try it out.
Yeah early bird does really depend on play style now that I think about it. Everyone I play with is very diplomatic haha
I agree. I'm about to run the Umbrage Quest in Icespire peak and I feel that this would make my players immediately attack the manticore. I'm hoping that they consider roleplaying and convince the manticore to leave the lady, Adabra, alone, such as by bribing it.with food and / or healing it airh a potion. So I'm definitely not keen on encouraging shoot first, ask questions later.
I think what I might try is that every round, or for every major battle (because I often have one sneak up behind them!) I'll have them ro) initiative - whoever rolls highest wins and then we go clockwise from there.
This is my thinking too. Many campaign have several interesting and intimidating foes that *could* be resolved with battle, but are more interestingly and satisfyingly resolved through non-lethal, semi-lethal, or RP-based means. Early Bird robs campaigns of this.
Rolling initiative is fun, thematic, and mechanically important. Getting a good initiative is an important consideration when building a character. I know there aren't many hot takes left in 5e, but there's no need to just ignore mechanics when the only real way of speeding up combat is having engaged and knowledgeable players
With a big table (7 players), I’ve had players roll and then go around the table from the high number. Let’s one player benefit from high initiative and have ease of knowing who’s next.
Nice blend of methods!
I wonder if this would help with encounters of large numbers of enemies, the ones that take forever to finish a round. My only worry with monsters in the middle though is a ton of bad guys swarming a PC on their group turn, potentially not allowing other PC's to intervene. Could easily break these monsters into groups and have a monsters either side of the middle player group :)
Yeah, the effectiveness definitely drops with high numbers of monsters. Then a more even distribution is best... but who knows if you would get that by rolling randomly either!
Meh. I like the call to roll for initiative. It builds excitement, personally, for the combat to come.
Yeah for normal size groups (4-6), I still recommend that! You could still have small groups do it without it taking much time, but for big groups, I'd rather minimize that pause before combat
Can see the early bird attack encouraging those itchy fingered players into trying to attack and take their shot before the more diplomatic players can get a word in. Not sure on that part
That's a good point. It really depends on playstyle. Most of my players are pretty experienced and usually try to talk their way through something, but if negotiations start to go sour, this gives them a chance to get a quick attack in before the combat technically starts
@@BobWorldBuilder I guess when it feels like this is happening the GM can quickly check with the rest of table before heading on. That brief moment check would have less distribution to the flow than rolling for initiative would.
As the diplomatic player (bard with expertise in deception and persuasion) this would scare the shit out of me
Maybe they should be "tricked" a couple of times by having the aggressive reaction leading to bad consequences ? The bodyguard was ready for any attack and parry, the party got the wrong read on the real threat, attacking head front the hag leads to other fey creatures jumping out of the wood...
Not systematically of course, but enough to understand they can't murder their way out of every discussion
I really liked the "monsters in the middle" approach, thanks!
I have read something interesting in reddit, someone suggested a new state a bit lower than "normal surprise" which instead of free turn to the faster side, it gives advantage on initiative rolls to the faster side, it comes very handy sometimes and more balanced than the surprise in some cases.
That seems like a good adjustment!
Great video Bob! Great thoughts.
Back when I played at a real table I often used the "go around the table" approach for any battle that wasn't a big boss fight. It worked well and the players were happy. Depending on the circumstances the monsters either got the early-bird attack or the players did which determined whether it started with the DM or started with the first player and the DM went last. That was generally fine. This was, like you say, a sort of surprise round option.
Like you, I used static monster initiative when we rolled for initiative. It saved me a roll and helped the monsters not get hosed by starting at the very end of a boss fight.
When playing online I've set up a macro using the Avrae Discord bot in which I already have everyone's initiative bonus and it auto-rolls for everyone and dumps out a list so everyone can see it. It's *way* faster than having everyone roll but players do feel like it is out of their hands and they get screwed when Avrae rolls low for them. Still, they've gotten over it and it's really fast to do. I expect D&D Beyond will soon have an auto-roll for initiative in their encounter builder which will be equally nice.
I'm hoping to get back to a table soon for at least one of my games and will probably return to the "around the table" initiative system I've enjoyed in the past.
Great topic!
Thanks Mike! It does seem like major VTTs have solved this age old issue, but my players definitely prefer rolling-- sometimes when D&D Beyond rolls low, they switch to real dice haha, so I don't think the macro would fly :P
Always a good day seeing Bob’s upload notification
Thanks! Every Wednesday :D
I don't really agree with any of this. I find initiative is too core to the rules, and messing with it can de-rail combat quickly. I find the best way to do initiative is to pre-roll monsters that I know they will be coming up against, or maybe just pre-roll a load of d20s without DEX modifiers to change on the fly, and also get the players to roll initiative after a combat for the next combat, so there is very little difficulty in jumping into combat.
Ahh yes, pre-rolling was my first adjustment to initiative, but eventually I realized grouping enemies was nice for me. Rather than randomly roll every time, I just chose 11 and 1 as a way to keep it pre-determined and split them up
@@BobWorldBuilder - I posted this comment on another site, but I'm moving it here because you really do need to see this:
Just no. To all of this.
This heavily encourages players to jump on top of Cinematic narrative that the DM is trying to create, or more to the point it punishes players who are willing to wait for a DM to finish, and practically guarantees that SOMEONE is going to jump the gun the moment they hear something that could be construed as a threat.
"You see a giant-"
"I attack it!"
"-crystal relic, the source of your quest, glowing with power, which you hit with your greatclub and shatter into pieces..."
This also vastly overpower classes that specifically RELY on initiative, and gimp class/subclass that get features specifically giving bonuses to their initiative. If I'm an assassin, of course I'll choose to go first in initiative, EVERY. TIME.
The whole point of rolling is that THE OPTIMAL RESULT DOESN'T ALWAYS HAPPEN. Sometimes you have a great plan but the monster goes before the lynchpin and throws everything into chaos. Sometimes everything is crap, but the monster rolls low and everyone gets to pile onto it before it can do its thing. THAT IS THE POINT OF D&D.
And seriously, VTT? 99% of online D&D platforms (Fantasy Grounds, Roll20, Foundry, DnDBeyond) roll initiative with a single click and organize the entire turn order for you, what time are you even saving then?
I started off just wanting to poke at some of the holes, but the further I thought about this, the more insulting it became that this aspect is just treated as a roadblock, when it is one of the most crucial aspects of the "you can TRY" philosophy.
@@GreyAcumen Absolutely this. I don't think Bob's method works for me. I've been playing both online and offline for multiple years and the biggest factor is not tracking or rolling it is people needing time to find their first action. This is even more apparent in online gaming.
Also don't group monsters, especially bigger monsters. If a monster is closer in initiaitve order it gives insentive to be prioritised iin attacks.
Multiple (stronger) monsters attacking at once, coordinated will take that advantage from the players.
And as @Grey Acumen said, chaos is part of the narrative. Everyone is excited about the chances of combat. But playnning is only fun when you mix a little bit of chaos. Are you sticking to the plan or do you develop a new one? These interactions become boring. And you can always reorganize initiative by dropping if you really want to give up your initiative advantage for iit.
This whole video is a "fix" for something that is not broken but an essential part of gameplay.
When I design encounters I always pre roll
Monster initiative before the game even starts. I have custom sheets made up though with a 30-1 set of slots though it’s easy for me. Probably because I am ocd.
I’m not sure rolling initiative is the slow down; more the recording of order. A blend could be a quick ‘roll off’. Highest initiative starts. Second highest determines direction round table (for variation). This would account somewhat for initiative bonuses (including monsters) but still leaves a margin for the dice mix it up.
I have a plinko board and each character has a token associated and I let the faster characters drop first. I play with small groups so this works out nice. We get a little bit of randomness, fun mini game, and a visual reminder of the order.
Haha that sounds fun!
The issue I have with this is that going earlier in the combat is a strategy for high dex characters. There are feats and magic items that give you a boost to your initiative roll, meaning that the developers wanted it to be a central part of combat. I understand wanting to speed up the game, but there are some dynamic shortfalls to that.
Yea, high dex characters get a bonus to initiative. You also have Alert which gives a +5. If i was high dex with Alert and my initiative was being negated by some arbitrary system which doesn't factor in my bonus I'd be pissed off.
Especially if Passive Perception wasn't zeroed out in a similar way since that takes your Wisdom modifier into account.
In my current campaign, with four players, I have the players sit around the table in order of their initiative bonuses, with highest bonus player immediately to my left. At the start of each combat encounter, I roll a 1 v 1 initiative, with the monsters rolling against my highest initiative player using her own bonus. If she wins the roll, initiative starts with her. If I win the roll, initiative starts with monsters. I am really liking this, as it has greatly sped up the process, the players are better aware of when their upcoming turn in the order occurs, and yet it still rewards the players who wanted to build a character with a higher initiative bonus.
Dexterity is kind of a god stat in 5e. It adds to stealth, ranged attack damage, armor class, several of the most commonly used skills, and initiative. A bit of a nerf in initiative is no great loss. High dex characters will still find plenty of use for it.
i really like the monsters go on 11 and 1 idea! i think i just love the traditional concept of rolling. as i introduce my gf into dnd with 1 on 1 sessions i want her to feel the rush of rolling well and getting to do her paladin smiting before the monsters get to hit her.
Thank you! Yeah you make a great case for this method!
Great stuff!
I let my players burn inspiration points to " become the director" for a scene. As long as it moves the story along, I let it fly!
Well said! That's some collaborative story-telling right there.
Found Bob for his Icespire Peak tips.
Came back for all the DM tips.
but I’m staying for that luscious beautiful hair.
Haha hopefully the DM tips too :P
I think, instead of at 11 and 1, maybe 10+Dex Mod and 1+Dex Mod -- faster monsters would be harder to hit. As the DM, you would know what these were beforehand, so you could still tell your players what those numbers would be.
Yeah I think that's a nice change for more variability!
In 2e AD&D, there was an archer kit (in Complete Book of Elves) that allowed a free shot before initiative. The PC had to announce they had an arrow nocked before encountering something. I wish 5e had more rules like this for classes.
That's a great adjustment! :)
Yeah I've known WAY too many players who would absolutely abuse that early-bird attack. That's why there's also plenty of advice out there that says the opposite: when the ranger says "I fire an arrow," that's when you call for initiative, and the ranger can't ACTUALLY make that attack until it's their turn.
Yeah, this definitely depends on player self-control! :P
Initiative is a lot like XP in the groups I've historical run and played in - the DM hates to do it, but the players look forward to it. People like 'going first'. I enjoy the early bird action idea, especially if someone could instead attempt a distraction/diplomacy attempt.
Though, it does seem a lot of variant initiative is trying to solve the 'flow' of combat and player attention. For that certain telegraphing methods might work well too- mentioning who is next in the round after the current party member, winding up monsters attacks to give an idea of how the battle is turning, and narrating narrative flavor after a successful hit while damage is being rolled.
Great points! I always mention who is "on deck" to try to keep my players focused
I like the idea of "Monsters in the middle" but I don't know how I feel about "The Early Bird" attacks.
Glad you like part of this idea! Take it and make it your own :)
First. Guess I rolled a Nat 20 and that alert feat was worth the investment.
Haha yes that’s a high initiative roll!!
This is fantastic. This gave me an idea that’s a slight adjustment. Use the early bird idea and use that as the starting point for then going round the table from there. This way the order sort of changes each time.
That's awesome! Glad you could find some inspiration from this!
Another initiative option for this system: Have the players determine their seating order. Everyone (DM included) rolls initiative as normal. The one who goes the highest goes first. Play then goes clockwise around the table from there.
Option: In a surprise situation mix things up even more roll a d6 or something to determine if play goes clockwise or counterclockwise. You could do this either as a simple 50/50 roll or weight it more likely to go in reverse if the opposing side has surprise.
This will make a huge difference on how the combats flow depending if they were intentional or thrust upon everyone! (BTW this system is based off of one for an RPG I am developing but also has similarities to the system/feel in Darkest Dungeon, only without the changing character order.)
These are great alterations! Thanks for commenting :D
I go 10 + Dex for all combatants. Those who are naturally fast go first, it makes sense, easy to keep track and easier to manage. But Imma try out your method to see if it works.
Hey if your players are all on board for the method you described, I would keep that haha, very simple!
You have a pretty great voice, just wanted to start with that.
My problem with your option for initiative here is when players spec into getting a higher initiative bonus. I once had a DM had us take turns around the table, but I had heavily invested into a speedster character who had an absurd bonus, and it was such a sour moment.
You may have asked that DM to be at the right place around the table, so you played (among the) first. Seems logical if you invested in a speedster.
Thanks! Yeah for 4-6 players you'd still be rolling and the speedster bonus applies. For small or big groups, if your fellow players are reasonable, they should let such a character act first or have you sit in the right spot for it
I used to (and still) play a lot Call of Cthulhu or Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. In both games, the initiative is fixed and depends on a stat of the character. What I always did is to asked the players to sit around the table in the order of their initiative. Pretty efficient.
@@Poulpy37Cthulhu In the vanilla Warhammer rules the initiative is not fixed, it's 1d10 + Agility. Since Agility is a percentile value that hovers around 30 for humans, it's the main factor, but there's still quite a bit of variance. However, to speed up combat, I decided to forego the roll and just go in the order of Agility. Makes bookkeeping a lot easier.
@@krinkrin5982 I suppose you're talking about the 2nd edition. In 1st and 4th, there's no roll (except in some optional rules).
I've been using a method taken from shadow of the demon Lord which speeds stuff up and allows for more setting each other up.
Essentially you can take a fast or slow action. Fast is an action or movement, slow an action and movement.
Just ask who's taking a fast action then do:
Fast players
Fast monsters
Slow players
Slow monsters
The order they go is up to them
I'm a simple man, I see a video from the Bob Ross of DnD and I click it
Haha thank you! :)
I do enjoy your tips here, and I have seen these in games I've done and been a part of. The round-the-table method would be sweet for in person games!
I have always done initiative at the end of a long rest and keep it as a rolling total of how aware my players are. The key here is to change the mindset of what initiative can be, because it probably is more than reflexes in the moment. It's how strained your brain and body is plus how trained one is. So, I give the training the baseline at the beginning of the day and adjust the reflex abilities of the party throughout their day toward a combat and allow them agency to change it in preparation (with reason).
So, they roll their initiative and it's locked for the day based on how well they slept or rested(the roll). I give positives and negatives for doing things to amp up their awareness prior to combat to give incentives for the common items that people often overlook and put weight and storage capacity (bags of holding are way too consistent and forgiving to me here, also Artifacers can break this) to the test. The initiative resets after the long rest. A short rest provides a bonus depending on what the players do during the rest. Although, if they are resting in a hostile situation, short resting can help monsters regroup or trigger them to the players presence in some way resulting in negative initiative overall.
My fear with a lot of initiative stuff that doesn't roll is how it takes out some official, third party, and home brew things that add/subtract, or even move initiative around. I know my way isn't fool-proof, but it does what you're looking for in fluidity and provides an extra dimension for my players.
Those are great alternatives! thanks for sharing them here :)
I want to like the Early Bird idea, but I'm concerned this would regress into a verbal "Duck-Duck-Goose" type scenario. How do you account for the fact that you as the DM know where every monster is, and thus you are always already primed to "act first", unless in the interest of fairness you impose some arbitrary post-encounter-explanation delay on yourself to not be able to "react as monster" to your own description? ----OR--- once players understand this process, wouldn't they just always naturally and obnoxiously "SHOTGUN!" you the second you get to what they think is the end of your description, thus preventing you from ever Early Birding them?
to use your troll example, why wouldn't you, except to save face as DM, just say: You lock eyes with a troll who's raising a deer leg to its mouth--AND IN ANGER IT THROWS THE LEG AT YOU (attack).
What's fair for the players/your Troll vis-a-vis reaction time?
If the DM is competitive, that would be a problem! If the DM wants players to succeed and roleplays monsters based on how they should act in the given scenario, you're all good
@@BobWorldBuilder maybe you can address this in your follow up video? Your response doesn’t feel like much of a solution...it sounds more like Early Bird is simply: always let players get a free attack lest you as DM come off as “competitive”. Regardless, good work and good luck fighting the horde of haters :)
I've started using the Encounter Builder and Combat Tracker on D&D Beyond. It's a really great tool. I ask my players to roll initiative at the beginning of the session to "pre-load" it into the first encounter if/when it happens. Then when the first encounter is completed, we roll again to "pre-load" again, and then rinse, repeat throughout the session. It doesn't break tension and combat, when it is triggered, happens immediately with no "loading screen". Works for my group.
Online play does seem to solve this issue for the most part!
I like it. The monster in the middle also lets support or healers become more meaningful. Yup my "Lockdown Locks" are a solid two years old ritual cast...
Glad you think so! Others have made a good argument that grouping monsters can make it hard for a healer to help before a character goes down. The way dnd works however, getting healed from unconsciousness is basically as effective as getting healed from low HP
Professor DM sent me here, great video. I have a group of 4 players and I’m gonna try the monster on 11 and 1, I already use something close to early bird when i made monsters stalk them, if successful monsters have the first attack but if they fail players got the firs action, but as I made them give me march order for travel and dungeon crawl I’m gonna use this method as well. How about keep the march order as theirs iniciative and monsters in the middle?
Ooh using marching order is a great idea! My thanks to the Professor!
I'm a big fan of monsters in the middle, but I think early bird might mess with balance too much. I can see why it improves the transition into combat, but what about having that first turn be the start of the first round, and then go around the group clockwise from there? No need to roll initiative and start with a surprise turn.
The downside is that having a good initiative modifier becomes less important. It can still be used sometimes to determine who goes first when the narrative doesn't determine it, but it's still a nerf to some features and feats. This can be solved by letting players readjust their characters if they feel they're being nerfed.
Thanks! Yeah for 4-6 players, they still get to roll, so speedy characters get their bonus. For small or big groups, it just comes down to the other players being reasonable about letting that fast PC go first or sit in the right spot to go first
your described scene of the character shooting the troll was good. the play should continue with the DM simply asking individuals what they are doing, assign DC for activities or make to hit rolls. as the scene unfolds, inject opponent actions as appropriate.
by stopping the story to inject an arbitrary turn order, changes the whole sense of a role-playing scene into a tactical simulation. this disruption can reduce/remove important role-playing information due to the action economy rules of the combat mechanics.
Yeah for enemies that can be defeated easily in one round, I think what you described-- keeping it roleplay only, is great!
It's great advice but what do I give my players that made an effort to have a high initiative bonus?
Yea thats the problem I have with these systems. One of my players combines the chronurgy wizard (add int+Dex to initiative) with gift of alacrity (+d8 to initiative) altert feat (+5) and a dagger of warding to go first and control the battlefield. Then, one day, they would sit at the wrong side of the table and go last, when the -2 Dex fighter goes first and the -3 dex monster also goes before the wizard.
@@leonpetrich5864 I mean, there is a rather simple fix to this. Let him go first if he reaaally cares that much and has made an effort to build the character to have high Initiative.
1-3 players: the other 2 players should be reasonable and let the speedy character go first!
4-6: they roll, so no problem.
7+: hopefully the DM is reasonable and lets the speedy player sit in the right spot to go first!
Why complicate it so much? Just use basically a passive initiative, just like passive perception. 10 + your dex mod +and additions you have and boom, initiative for everyone that the DM can just write down and always use. Plus the same can be done for monsters so everyone is on the same page.
I think that's great! I definitely like that simplicity, but my players didn't :P
This is why I like to play with Roll20. I can just bulk roll all tokens and the turn tracker in Roll20 sorts them automatically. I use some API/plugins to achieve this, but the time from initiative rolls to battle start is like 2 seconds.
VTTs can certainly fix a number of initiative issues!
Yes, in Fantasy Grounds all initiatives are rolled with a mouse click. This solves the issue. On person I use two distinct methods, for 4 or more players, one generic roll at the begining of the combat for the whole group and then, on the player's turn, they choose who goes first. This encourages collaboration. On 3 players or less, I have been using classical method.
Huh. I usually just play a clip of James Brown screaming "I feel good!", but I don't turn it off until everyone gets their initiative rolled. Incidentally, they roll and determine order quickly. Your idea has a bit more class, although it will make it harder for me to expose everyone to the King of Soul. Although, I guess I could have a boss NPC who is the King of the Land of Soul and just call it a day.
Lol I feel like your method does in fact have more class :P
You could even replace the initiative die rolling with a fast round of musical chairs to achieve seating order initiative.
In my experience, having monsters go on an 11 will have them going after more than half the initiative-rolling players (because if they have a choice players will have some bonus to Dexterity nine characters out of ten, but it is a good idea.
In that case, maybe a higher number would make more sense!
@@BobWorldBuilder The obvious change would be to let them go on 11 plus their initiative modifier, but that ruins the elegance of your system. I think I may try it your way first, before experimenting.
Been playing D&D and RPGs since the 80s, all sorts of group sizes (3 - 9) all sorts of combat scenarios, all sorts of mob mixes. TBH rolling initiative and keeping track with just paper and pencil was never a time consuming thing and always added to the combat. Folks might be overthinking thinking this a bit...
"time consuming" is relative. If standard initiative works for you, roll on, my friend!
@@BobWorldBuilder Fair enough my friend. Whatever works best for your table. I do appreciate the perspective. Keep putting out your great content!!! Cheers
The problem I see with this is that not all monsters and characters are created equal. The initiative stat is an extremely powerful stat, more so than people think. Increase the probability of starting a combat by only five percent can increase the probability of winning the fight by up to 40%! Especially for fights that are about equal. It is that powerful! Having a static initiative can disproportionately nerf/buff characters. For balance and strategy sake, no matter the initiative method, it must be random. Of course, if you value combat speed and story immersion, by all means, put it static. But be aware that your are removing some of the unpredictableness of the game, which is a core mechanic.
I've never heard those stats of relating initiative to probability of winning! That's a great point and I love how you phrased it in a constructive way. Thanks for commenting! :)
@@BobWorldBuilder The statistics come from a fight simulator I developed for 3.5E where I wanted to test class and ability balancing. In some very contrived situations ( like two level 1 fighters with longswords) where both sides are almost identical, I noticed the main factor for winning was the initiative (in hindsight, it's kinda obvious) more so than increasing damage, increasing attack bonus, or increasing AC. Which made me realize the importance of being the first to hit. Even in reality, i.e. LARPing, the first one to hit is often the one who will win.
Interesting idea but I like the randomness of dice rolls
I may have to try it though, I run 11 players
11! haha, I hope you've been going around the table! That's a lot of people!
@@BobWorldBuilder no they always rolled
We go around the table for role playing
I like the "players choose order" quite a bit, it reminds me of how the initiative system in Lancer works. I think it works for groups up to 7 regardless
Haven't heard of Lancer. Thanks!
@@BobWorldBuilder Lancer is a great Mech RPG, has some similarities to D&D 4e when it comes to combat, but smartly grabbed much of the out of combat rules from blades in the dark to fill out that area. I would definitely recommend taking a look at it.
I generally play high dex characters, so naturally, I don't love any of this. Playing on VTTs makes it extremely easy to roll initiative for each character and monster and keep the order with no fuss. In in person games or solo, I'm a fan of group initiative, at least for monster types. I also don't mind group initiative for the PCs, applying the highest dex modifier to the roll for both PCs and monsters. When I'm playing solo, I tend to do group initiative with a d10....the reason I use a d10 instead of a d10 is I tend to solo using a system that incorporates elements of 5e as well as elements of old school games like B/X and Basic Fantasy. Those use a d6 for initiative (too many ties), so I feel a d10 is a good compromise between the two systems that I'm combining.
These ideas are novel. I personally dislike individual initiative because it makes working together feel awkward and needlessly contrived, so I do either group initiative or no initiative. In the cases it is paramount that someone does manage to go first I can always call for a roll at that particular moment.
Thank you! Yes, I'd like to experiment more with combo attacks. That was a homebrew adjustment we used in my first campaign before we learned he rules and it was tons of fun!
The early bird is a good idea. I was toiling with something like that but didn't really work. I had the player who initiated if there was one get a +10 on initiative in the first round. The attacked monster could then try and react with a dex check DC was the initiative of the player. While the idea is ok was way too much hassle.
Going around the table takes away all chance and I don't like that.
Another tought would be to continue the round from the early bird player after rollling initiative. So rolling high might mean not being first.
Also the moment of rest before battle is kinda nice as the DM.
I like your idea of the quick-thinking player just getting a big bonus to initiative. Most of the time it would have the same effect
@@BobWorldBuilder yes while the high dex player could still be potentially first. Keeps the randomness.
Always glad to see a Bob World builder notification.
Thanks for using the notifications! :)
I've gamed with someone who always tried to get free surprise sucker punches by (reliably) yelling out an attack or spell while in the middle of dialogue. It got stale really quick.
This seems like a good rule for the most low level of lowest level newbie players. But it ignores too many character intracies for me.
Too many players able to dump their Dex and initiative but still get the benefits of going first just because they sit to the left of the DM.
Simple, balanced, fun - pick two. Sometimes a little complexity is necessary
Going around the table is what I have subscribed to when playing home games for years, it just makes sense.
Couldn't agree more!
But then there are certain abilities that become useless. My barbarian gets advantage on initiative rolls, but this class ability would essentially not exist with going around the table.
I haven't tried it yet, but I was thinking of using 10+ (DEX or INT) mod+ prof. bonus for initiative. Quick thinking seems just as important as quick action, hence DEX or INT. By including proficiency bonuses, PCs have an edge over your typical monsters, but high powered monsters have an edge with higher stats and prof. bonuses. I have also considered just replacing the D20 for initiative rolls with a D10 because I do like variability. I just feel that there is too much unpredictability with a D20 when a character has 20 DEX but rolls a pesky 1 while a monster with 9 DEX rolls a 20 and goes before everybody who should be faster. A third option is just adding proficiency to the initiative roll since PCs usually have the higher bonus and this would also simulate a more experienced character having a better reaction time because of said experience. These are just some ideas. I don't know if they'll work better.
Hey Bob, just discovered your channel the other day and really enjoy the content!
I personally use the turn order system from Wrath and Glory 2.0 for my 5e games, as I have found it to be the quickest for my groups.
The turn system starts by the players choosing who goes first, and after each player turn it is an enemy turn. (I also do the narrative "early bird gets the worm" attack stuff as well.)
For example.
1. player decide PC-1 goes first
2. DM decides which monster's turn
3. players decide PC-4 goes now
4. dm decides which monster's turn.
so on and so forth.
Generally I just order the monsters in the order of "who is narratively fastest" or by order of minions>normals>elites>bosses.
Sometimes I include some monsters that are "very fast" that break the normal order and go monster first rather than player.
The system works a bit better in wrath and glory 2.0 but I still like it in 5e as well!
Keep up the great videos!
3:09 “No initiative” sounds great if you have reasonable people involved, but then any system (including “let’s just wing it”) will work fine. The true test of a system is how well does it survive contact with the enemy, how does it work under adverse conditions (e.g. a tired and cranky DM with their own creative agenda, or simply a need to wrap things up “soon”).
That's a great barometer for homebrew rules. I will be keeping that in mind! :)
I personally prefer *Passive Initiative* (10+Dex) or setting an *Initiative Score* (Dex score). I think it's only fair that a character with super high Dexterity is always the one acting first, or even a character with the Alert feat or Advantage on Initiative checks (for whatever reason).
When using *Passive Initiative* you add the +5 bonus from the Alert feat as normal. Advantage in passive checks give you a +5 bonus, while disadvantage subtracts -5. If a character has Dex 20 (+5 bonus) + Alert + Advantage on Initiative checks = 25 is your maximum *Passive Initiative* unless the PC has a way to increase their Dex beyond 20.
When using *Initiative Scores* the bonus from both the Alert feat and Advantage on Initiative checks is reduced to +2 each. This is to balance things out since the natural cap for Ability Scores is 20. So, a Dex 20 + Alert + Advantage on Initiative checks = a 24 *Initiative Score* maximum unless the PC has a way to increase their Dex beyond 20.
Both methods work in my experience, the difference is that the later starts higher than the former, but the fomer can go a bit higher in the end.
I've been playing D&D since 1st ed (early 1977). I've seen the game evolve through every incarnation. I've tried just about every shortcut and 'alternative method' of game play imaginable. Though well meaning, I've not found many that are actually worth their salt. The suggestions here are not exceptions. Every time an alteration is made to the most basic - and critical - mechanics there is a change to game 'balance' that can disrupt overall play both in the short and long terms. The lesson I've learned in 44 years of play is to leave rule changes to the professional game designers. Do what you want - after all it is your game, but do you want to play D&D or an amateur knockoff?
When WotC rebuilt the game for 3e, they caused an internal defection which birthed Pathfinder - a rival which took the popular market away from them. It wasn't until 5e that they figured out what they did wrong and brought the game back to something much closer to the original - which is what the masses seemed to want - and returned to the top of the genre. Learn from history.
With the VTT I'm using, I can usually get the turn order setup with all the monsters rolling initiative before all my players finish rolling themselves, so it rarely takes more than 10-20 seconds to get it rolling. (usually closer to 5).
I should probably say, I don't do individual initiative for each monster, each monster "group" get 1 roll.
And I spend a decent amount of time preparing out of session.
Hey Bob, I don‘t like your early bird system and here is why:
It favors the fast thinking, „loud“ early Player. And sometimes it is Good That certain things are Not set before the monsters- red Dragon approches oh i cast Protection from Fire really fast. Okay after That the red dragon bursts out his odem of flames???? Meh
What you can do to transit from rpg to combat more smoothly is to collect say 5 rolls of Initiative at the start of the game from the players, Write it down and then use it in a mixed Order when combat occures. But use all! When empty on orders get new from the players. What helps here is a method to show of the players the order like a flag pole or stickers on the gm screen
Opening attack really be out here like "YOU GOT THE FIRST STRIKE!!"
I prefer rolling for initiative. I use roll20 and have a macro that automatically allows players to roll and have their initiative get sent to the turn order chart, so it's pretty trivial. The thing that really speeds up combat is that I impose a 5 second countdown the moment a player starts dithering, telling them that if they don't tell me what they do before I count down, they stay still and dodge for the round.
Another thing that I find helps is reminding people when their turn is coming up. "Player X, it's your turn, Player Y, get ready" said just before asking what X does reminds Y that this is the moment they should be thinking about their turn. Do that enough times, and it becomes a habit.
I actually roll monster initiatives before the session as part of my prep. Then, when my players roll initiative, I ask them for their initiative in whatever order I have their tokens set up on Roll20 (the initiative tracker thing). My players tend to know what they're doing in combat, and if they take too long on their turn I usually give them a nudge verbally. It runs smooth enough I think.
I don't like it. My way of speeding combat is to tell them battle is fast if they need to think and haven't done it already it means that character is shocked and skips turn, even if they ask me what is happening which I just described means their character is assessing battlefield and skips turn while I describe everything once again for them
Or, hear me out. If you have combat planned for the session, ask the group members to preroll the initiative at the start of the combat. Then you make a few rolls for your monsters at the start of the session as well. Then, when combat starts, you already have to order set up. You just adjust a little with monster modifiers, and done.
How do you deal with specific classes that have features that give them bonuses to initiative? Like Swashbucklers or people who take the Improved Initiative feat? Seems like this style of doing Initiative would discourage people from playing those without an alternative class feature.
I think changing how Initiative works isn't the way to speed up combat per say as realistically it only takes up the first minute of combat to get everything settled and then you'll be in the same flow you would be anyway.
Only way I have found to speed up combat- which is really only an issue with larger encounters with more monsters is keep a monsters turn simple in terms of description unless it managed to do one of the following:
A: Using a specific ability for the first time to give the party a chance to notice they can do this.
B: Successfully land an attack or ability.
C: Preform some non-directly combat related action like talking, planning, or repositioning with allies.
Otherwise they take their turn, try, and either are successful or fail. If Fail just move on and only occasionally describe the failure. As the DM you'll be taking up most of the turns in these combats and if you really wanna stream line things you can do your best this way. Players will take their time to think and do things, players only get one turn after all to have their fun and then its time to wait and see what happens.
Very simple! If you have 1-3 players and they choose their initiative, hopefully they'll be nice and let the player with high initiative go first. If you have 4-6 and roll, no problem. If you have 7+ and go around the table, have them sit where you'll start the round.
I just realized I do the "early bird technique" by accident. If I describe a scene with monsters, and one of my players says "I shoot an arrow" I always handle that arrow first before I roll for Initiative. Otherwise it feels super weird if that player rolls bad and gets its attack resolved 10 mins later besides him having seized the opportunity. I never have problems with players always shouting first. I think I will try the fixed Initiative on 11 (and 1) for monsters too!
Haha nice! Yeah give it a shot and see what works for your group :)
Here is an idea derived from the miniatures game Bolt Action. At the top of everyone's character sheet write a number. The monsters get two numbers as well. Put chits with corresponding numbers in a bag or cup and randomly draw for who goes next. It's fast, changes things, raises the tension, keeps everyone engaged and thinking more tactically. It's just another method. Having played every type of game conceivable since the 1960's I realized that in the end all methods work as well as any other from IGOUGO to completely random.
Completely random is always an easy way to simplify things! Thanks, Will!
Going around the table seems a little unfair to me because there are characters with high dexterity score that should act first abd taking that away from the player who has high dexterity is not fair, also it really hurts the alert fear that gives you bouns 5 to initiative, i just use passive initiative for monsters or if i feel like it i roll all of the initiative before the session and has them rwiten on a paper already
I have an ideo I want to try. Have the players roll initiative after combat and use those rolls for the next combat. That way you dont have to stop the game every time combat starts and it'll slow things down a bit after the high of combat.
my problem with around the table is that if I have a boss and say 10 minions they all go at once or worst the winery scene in CoS where the party gets jumped by almost 2 dozen creatures all the enemies go at once then all the players.
In my experience when all the monsters go at the same time, then a player gets ganged up on without the players having an opportunity to do anything about it, or the monsters all die before they can do anything.
This can happen with the initiative roles but it breaks up how often it happens
Not going to lie, I feel like the early bird initiative idea is the reason 5e moved from suprise being a round of combat to being a condition. Which is something I think many people forget is a thing.
I find that this kind of subverting initiative can really hinder a player who took a subclass such as swashbuckler because the higher initiative looked good or alert feat or ways to get advantage on initiative checks
I tend to do something similar: the monsters will always take their turn at their initiative bonus plus 10. I’m intrigued by the idea of minions going last. I may adapt that to my method.
I love the early bird attack, but I guess I’m confused on turn 11 for 4-6 players. If i have 4 players with 2 NPC’s like I do in my Strahd wouldn’t i just have them roll initiative, then go as follows-
PC 1 & 2-combat order 1st and 2nd
All monsters-combat order 3rd
PC 3 & 4-combat order 5th and 6th
NPC’s 1 & 2- combat order 7th and 8th
All monsters- combat order 9th
Repeat
Or am I making this too hard?
I like monsters going on 11 (as if they rolled 11) because it gives the PCs a number to beat, and it roughly divides them in half. But of course, go with whatever makes the most sense for you and your players!
Early bird gets the worm rewards shooting first and asking questions later, but overall, fav method
This isn't really adding anything.. nothing is even being modified... Idk rolling a D20 and doing some basic addition seems easier than having an 11 (easy) skill check using your dex modifier. "then raise the skill check!" Well yeah, that's why we roll the dice. Bosses will likely go first because they're getting huge bonuses, and minions will go last *usually*.
And the combat transition is what everyone already does. I have yet to play with a DM that would respond to "I attack X" with "roll initiative and we'll see if your hasty decision happened!". NO they let it go through and do combat as usual or have a Dex save vs the NPC who was thinking the exact same thing.
Thanks for commenting 👍
Hey Bob. I think you got some very cool ideas there. I will probably try out some of these next time i get to play at a real table. But with my groups playing online, I can't agree that those things speed up the game for all groups. We are 6 player + me the GM and we play on Roll20. But Initiative only takes 10 seconds, because with the use of a macro button, everyone clicks and the initiative is done. Two clicks later and its sorted,the group has their sheets ready and the fight can start. So for all R20 Users out there I can recommend the macros, with my expierience. Still no guarantee for any method.
Wish you all a lucky NAT 20 o/
Yeah I don't really use Roll20 anymore, but those macros sounds super useful! Thank you for commenting!
I'm not sold on the early bird just because (as others have stated) I feel like it causes a monster "gold rush" for my fast talkers and my shy players and thoughtful players will not get a chance to participate first. I REALLY love the "monsters go on 11" idea though. I'm incorporating that into my homebrew rules today! I love the notion that the players feel like they win by rolling higher than 11. I've been watching a lot of your videos and they have all had amazing nuggets of wisdom! Thank you and I hope you keep up the content....you got my sub and a donation for all your great work.
It seems that Bob's initiative method is the ideal solution for his very specific group of players. Your shy player is a solid example of how this method creates a bigger problem than it solves. There are so many scenarios in which the early bird tweak -- just that part alone -- fails that I would say most groups are better off using rules as written than this method.
I have started experimenting with a method similar to the 4-6 player style. But I set the DC for initiative per encounter. Usually the average dex modifier of the monsters +10 (I just approximate the average I don't actually spend time calculating it). I tell what the DC is, like "Roll initiative, DC 13" So the players can instantly know if they are before or after the monsters.
I haven't tried having the monsters act in 2 groups, maybe I will experiment with that.
That sounds like a good adjustment!
Honestly I like the way Dungeon World handles it. However that game's mechanics are set up to do it. For straight up D&D I do go clockwise around the table and never roll initiative - heck even in Dungeon World, it just makes the most sense and gets to the action. The only other way I like is the OSE every round players and monsters roll a D6 and winner gets to go first - but still around the table ;-) Good video Bob, I'm a big fan of Professor DM as well!
I've heard some other recommendations for Dungeon World-- I'll have to check that out! Thanks!
my initiative goes like this. players all roll a D20, one at a time.
I allow the bad guys to act first if I feel the players are taken by surprise and vice versa.
I jot down their results in order, on a sheet with rows labeled 1 through 20, with a new column for every round of combat.
as each player acts, I write down a short note about what their action was. "attack missed" fireball 36 damage" "cure minor wounds +8hp " ect.
My bad guys take their turns all at once. This not only speeds things up, but also adds a little bit of tension.
As each player acts, I announce who goes next by referencing my combat sheet.
Very nice, that's kind of a blend of some ideas in this video!
This certainly will do it’s job to remove hassle and make the transition from scenery to combat easier but I think it’s give the players a massive a advantage your giving them every preference. If your party knows it’s likely to go before the monster, which is more likely because your removing it’s dexterity modifier and therefore the game’s internal logic trying to capture how quick-written or speedy the monster is. The party can develop strategies to press this advantage. Always using positioning or debuff spells before the enemy turn. And what about effect like Hex (Dexterity), Poisons or Cutting Words to decrease monster ability checks. Is that now an initiative of 6 or lower.
I think a Dm would find it difficult for a fine tuned party to not seriously denote it’s turns before they ever happen. The intrinsic chaos that know one know where they’ll end up, but can assume some average of 10 + Initiative modifier means the players have to adapt to perfect or imperfect situations all the time.
If you want a static number than it should be 10 + Dex mod, but even then let the monster roll with the group.
A few others have suggested that change, and I think it's a good move if you want simplicity with some variability :)
I think these are great options for different kinds of moments in the session/campaign. Sometimes it’s all I’s dotted and T’s crossed... other times it’s pc’s round the table, monsters go, PCs go.
If someone has high initiative build, then that should usually play into a casual style to not undercut their build. Simplifying is FOR playing into the story and I think if your players are with it, it’s really cool :)
Obviously rude loud players would not be allowed to reap benefits when this style is enacted at the right table.
👍✨✌️
Yeah. If you have 1-3 players and they choose their initiative, hopefully they'll be nice and let the player with high initiative go first. If you have 4-6 and roll, no problem. If you have 7+ and go around the table, have them sit where you'll start the round. As for rude/loud players, it should go without saying (but I guess would need to be said at some tables) that the early bird reaction should come after a "what do you do?" from the DM
Personally I think initiative rolls add a bit of tension to the game because everyone likes to know where they fall in the order and build a bit of nervousness.
However! I like the idea of monsters having a set turn number, but would adjust for real BBEGs at higher levels of play (6 or 7 and onward) to be 19.
Boss 19
Tough 11,
Henches 1
That's a great adjustment!