I know it's complicated & i'm trying to find a way to pull this off. I am trying to observe the fact that combat happens in 6 seconds per round. I wanted to make a sort of speed chess method where around the table it's first action, second action & 3rd or more & so on. What those actions are depend on which player does which move to set up either their own or another's action. The speed part implies a quick decision making process adding an element of chaos to be sure. If a party in their rest periods has that conversation about "what you did here was great but seemed wasted since no one else was able to take advantage. If you waited until this moment or I delayed until you went that changes things greatly." I think of it as playing an audible in combat that had been discussed before they break camp. The same could work for watch rotations. Waking the guy who just was relieved means that person is sleepy & tired AF. Waking the next watch kind of makes more sense if the whole party isn't needed will account for the adrenaline high that the oncoming watch won't overcome before their watch starts & so on. Just a few ideas here.
I'm just starting to watch your videos but something bothered me, you look like someone but I couldn't remember until today... David Van Driessen (the hippie teacher from Beavis and Butthead)
Alternative to just going around the table: Players and DM roll one D20 each. Highest roll starts. Then his neighbor with the higher roll. From there on we go around the table in the direction we're already going. Optional: Seating must be rearenged every rest. Maybe by dice roll 😀
I've been saying this for years: the only thing that slows down combat in D&D is the player not knowing what they're doing. You can use any trick you want, you can roll the monster's initiatives previously, you can roll attack and damage at the same time, etc... not of that really matters if the players still don't know what to do or how their abilities works.
Great point. Players being knowledgeable and prepared probably has the greatest effect on combat time, but I think these other "tricks" can smooth out the rough edges
Every single time it's always some dumb dumb who wanted to play a full caster and wants to feel special looking through their spells. Then mocks the fighter for being done with their turn in a few seconds. Even with great weapon fighter, and multiple attacks with action surge my turn takes 30 seconds max. Move roll all your attacks. Divide them up if an attack kills and share the love with the next enemy(if you have movement) that's the turn. Magical lol
I was going to defend rolling attack and damage together saving a lot of time in my experience, but if my players knew what they were doing, it wouldn't save much time anymore
@Creatotron it also rewards interrupting the description of the scene. Basically the rudest player gets to attack first. I feel like this might be some kind of “gotch-ya.” Or playing both sides against the middle. I’m having a hard time believing this is an honest suggestion.
@Creatotron it also rewards interrupting the description of the scene. Basically the rudest player gets to attack first. I feel like this might be some kind of “gotch-ya.” Or playing both sides against the middle. I’m having a hard time believing this is an honest suggestion.
I've always loved the pause right after the DM says "roll for initiative". Its a great moment to get into combat mode and it gives you a few seconds to plan what you will do your first tur.
Same! It also gives you a few moments to process a plot line that resulted in a fight or process a big unexpected foe. You basically stretch that anticipation out instead of just dropping it
for me "roll initiative" was like a "entering combat" screen for Final Fantasy or something like that, specially when it's a boss it always get's me hyped
"Six cowled men emerge from the crowd. The glint of steel shines as they unsheathe concealed blades and converge upon your group. Assassins!" /Dramatic pause, DM looks around the table *"Roll for Initiative."* ^ Is kind of an iconic D&D trope, though. It would be sad to see it go.
I like using a mix of early bird and initiative order. I build my encounters on dndbeyond and automatically roll for monsters. But players that state action that make sense to resolve before initiative get to do it.
@@BobWorldBuilder Sometimes, depending on the table, I have initiative going outside of combat, too. It helps with online groups that interrupt one another frequently and for rowdy tables. :)
@@BobWorldBuilder One potential way to keep "roll for initiative" in for the large group size would be to have everyone roll initiative, and the highest roll is the one that starts the round robin for that combat. I don't know how that works in practice since I just came up with it. I've been looking for and trying out various initiative alternatives because it takes so long for us to figure out turn order, even though I have 5 players, which should be reasonable. I'm definitely giving the monsters go on 11 method a shot, or reworking it to minions go on turn 11, mini-bosses go on turn 13, bosses go on turn 15, and legendary creatures go on turn 17.
"No initiative" method was horrible in practice; table order initiative was pretty good but I had to figure out the most equitable way to insert monster turns into that. However, it disadvantages certain class abilities and high stats like taking away things like having an Advantage on initiative - I had some players express disappointment that their class abilities were essentially nullified. Group initiative is pretty good but suffers from same issues. My preferred way is to roll initiative once at the beginning of the session and then that's the initiative order for the rest of the session. If a player wants to reroll their initiative they have to take an action on their turn to pause, assess the situation, and then roll a new initiative (few players take that option).
I worried about this too, like the Alert feat and the barbarian ability. I would probably just give change those abilities to “you can always choose to Earlybird act” or you get a surprise round every combat.
I like the idea of monsters in the middle- the only alteration I'd make is that instead of 'on 11', the monsters go on 'passive Initiative' (ie 10+dex). I think that would feel a little more dynamic, while still keeping the bulk of monsters around the middle (and making outliers special!)
Passive Initiative would also be good for PCs. 1. PCs with the same initiative bonus can choose who goes first. 2. Abilities that add to their initiative can easily be reworded as "Your Passive Initiative is calculated as 10 + your Dexterity modifier + [whatever additional bonus, such as Intelligence modifier for War Magic Wizards]". 3. Abilities that grant advantage on initiative could be refactored to be "When determining your initiative during combat, make an Initiative Check, using the result of this check in place of your Passive Initiative if it is higher."
@@deffdefying4803 for #3, you could also rule it the same way permanent advantage works for other passive skills, which is +5 to the relevant skill, so Passive Initiative for such a character would be 10+Dex+5
As DM, you pick which PC is closest to a sudden monster appearance. Each combat, pick a new PC. Your players might catch on, if they pay attention, but you can also make sure that the injured PCs find low-level mooks, and buff heroes get set upon by a lieutenant of the Big Bad.
I did the Early Bird method when I first DMd, and a friend of mine is doing it now that he's starting to DM. My experience is the spell caster quickly turns into The Wizard from XP to Level 3. "I cast Fireball."
@@benvoliothefirst, or you tell them that fireball takes too long, but a cantrip or bonus action spell will work. We didn't let the fighter take his full attack action, and so we're not letting the caster perform a full casting action.
Change the verbiage to “I cast a spell” To be fair a cantrip is the most likely as burning a spell slot is unlikely. They also should be allowed to roll an intelligence check to see if they have an in character knowledge of what would work better (fire vs cold; charm vs attack)
So people in the comments don't want to use the system already in the game so they create a new system and then punish the players for adapting to that system and learning how to utilize it better? That sounds like a real great idea.
The best advice I've EVER recieved was to push minor bookkeeping tasks like initiative and time progression on select players. I'm lucky I have one player who loves to take initiative and discuss strats based on it and one that THRIVES on keeping track of the number of hours that pass in any given session. I can focus more on combat and story but still get that attention to detail that makes a campaign feel alive.
The transition from roleplay to combat can be greatly smoothed by having the players pre-roll initiative at the start of the session, then using that initiative when it comes up
Good Idea, but you might have to take sitational factors into account and have to switch it up later ... hmm. And I assume you reroll after each encounter for the next one?
great idea, then sit them acordingly. That way it's visualy easy to know who goes next but it also doesn't make initiative booster feats/magic items useless
Rolling initiative is fun, thematic, and mechanically important. Getting a good initiative is an important consideration when building a character. I know there aren't many hot takes left in 5e, but there's no need to just ignore mechanics when the only real way of speeding up combat is having engaged and knowledgeable players
One thing I want to note that you seem to disregard, intentionally or not, I can not say, is that initiative is a stat, an ability check using your dexterity. It is a very useful stat, as high initiative is generally quite powerful. If you go early in the turn order, you might have earned yourself a whole extra turn in combat, and it gives you the opportunity to remove or deny the turns of enemy creatures either through debuffs or straight up killing them before they can act. Not only can a caster potentially swing a whole fight on the first turn if they go before the enemies, it is also useful for characters wanting to get into a good position to deal damage, stay safe or protect the party. Therefore some people build around it. There are many class features, spells, magic items and even a feat that improves your initiative roll, in addition to just increasing your dexterity and some people build around said features. My point is just that removing initiative can really change the game as it is a core mechanic that combat is built around and removing it nerfs some characters.
I agree, and this method either includes the initiative stat, or leaves it in the hands of the group. For example: If you have 1-3 players and they choose their initiative, hopefully they'll be nice and let the player with high initiative go first. If you have 4-6 and roll, no problem. If you have 7+ and go around the table, have them sit where you'll start the round.
Agreed, I'm playing an arcane trickster in a 5e game and I've considered the Alert feat for that +5 initiative. Because I need to go as soon as possible to both get proper positioning for sneak attacks and to cast spells like sleep and color spray. If you finick with how turns work too much then you mess with other aspects of the game.
@@slydoorkeeper4783 but if your group sets this as the standard for how you plan to do initiative for all future combats then you will know that you won’t need to grab alert and can instead grab a different feat that would be more beneficial to you and your group. What I’m getting at is this should be a rule established in session 0 so that you know this is how initiative will work moving forward and you can create a character accordingly. And remember if you don’t like this idea then just don’t use it.
One idea I've had that (but haven't had a chance to playtest yet) is that if you go without initiative rolls, but are hacking 5e so characters still have an initiative bonus, on the first round of combat, characters can add their initiative bonus to one attack roll, ability check, or defence roll (they declare they do so before rolling). If they get advantage on initiative then they get advantage on a roll of their choice too. That way characters who build around getting good initiative scores will be basically guaranteed to get off a good attack on the first round of combat
Great video Bob! Great thoughts. Back when I played at a real table I often used the "go around the table" approach for any battle that wasn't a big boss fight. It worked well and the players were happy. Depending on the circumstances the monsters either got the early-bird attack or the players did which determined whether it started with the DM or started with the first player and the DM went last. That was generally fine. This was, like you say, a sort of surprise round option. Like you, I used static monster initiative when we rolled for initiative. It saved me a roll and helped the monsters not get hosed by starting at the very end of a boss fight. When playing online I've set up a macro using the Avrae Discord bot in which I already have everyone's initiative bonus and it auto-rolls for everyone and dumps out a list so everyone can see it. It's *way* faster than having everyone roll but players do feel like it is out of their hands and they get screwed when Avrae rolls low for them. Still, they've gotten over it and it's really fast to do. I expect D&D Beyond will soon have an auto-roll for initiative in their encounter builder which will be equally nice. I'm hoping to get back to a table soon for at least one of my games and will probably return to the "around the table" initiative system I've enjoyed in the past. Great topic!
Thanks Mike! It does seem like major VTTs have solved this age old issue, but my players definitely prefer rolling-- sometimes when D&D Beyond rolls low, they switch to real dice haha, so I don't think the macro would fly :P
I really liked the "monsters in the middle" approach, thanks! I have read something interesting in reddit, someone suggested a new state a bit lower than "normal surprise" which instead of free turn to the faster side, it gives advantage on initiative rolls to the faster side, it comes very handy sometimes and more balanced than the surprise in some cases.
Has Initiative really been that big of a problem for people? The only issue I've ever had is when roll20 breaks and doesn't add people to the turn order
The roll20 turn order probably breaks because the player did not click on their token to make it active before either rolling a d20 in the vtt or using the initiative stat in their DnDBeyond character sheet through the beyond20 extension.
In person and online for me, initiative has never been an issue. The only time its been relative is when someone needed to answer a phone call or in my case, either my wifi decided to crash or I needed to switch computers. But after people got caught up it went back to no issues.
With a big table (7 players), I’ve had players roll and then go around the table from the high number. Let’s one player benefit from high initiative and have ease of knowing who’s next.
I have a plinko board and each character has a token associated and I let the faster characters drop first. I play with small groups so this works out nice. We get a little bit of randomness, fun mini game, and a visual reminder of the order.
Hey Bob, just discovered your channel the other day and really enjoy the content! I personally use the turn order system from Wrath and Glory 2.0 for my 5e games, as I have found it to be the quickest for my groups. The turn system starts by the players choosing who goes first, and after each player turn it is an enemy turn. (I also do the narrative "early bird gets the worm" attack stuff as well.) For example. 1. player decide PC-1 goes first 2. DM decides which monster's turn 3. players decide PC-4 goes now 4. dm decides which monster's turn. so on and so forth. Generally I just order the monsters in the order of "who is narratively fastest" or by order of minions>normals>elites>bosses. Sometimes I include some monsters that are "very fast" that break the normal order and go monster first rather than player. The system works a bit better in wrath and glory 2.0 but I still like it in 5e as well! Keep up the great videos!
Yeah, not a fan of the early bird rule. I think it encourages "shoot first, ask questions later" approach too much. One free turn at the beginning is a pretty strong incentive. If I were to adopt the early bird rule, I think I'll offer my player the choice: "You can take your action right now, but you'll forfeit your normal initiative spot in the first round, meaning you could potentially be waiting quite a bit until your turn comes in the second round. Are you sure you want to be the early bird?" Maybe that could be a workable tradeoff. I do like the idea of changing the initiative style depending on group size, and having all the minions go at the end while the main monster goes at a predetermined spot in the initiative order. I run games with 3 players, and I think they'll be amiable to this change. I ought to try it out.
I agree. I'm about to run the Umbrage Quest in Icespire peak and I feel that this would make my players immediately attack the manticore. I'm hoping that they consider roleplaying and convince the manticore to leave the lady, Adabra, alone, such as by bribing it.with food and / or healing it airh a potion. So I'm definitely not keen on encouraging shoot first, ask questions later. I think what I might try is that every round, or for every major battle (because I often have one sneak up behind them!) I'll have them ro) initiative - whoever rolls highest wins and then we go clockwise from there.
This is my thinking too. Many campaign have several interesting and intimidating foes that *could* be resolved with battle, but are more interestingly and satisfyingly resolved through non-lethal, semi-lethal, or RP-based means. Early Bird robs campaigns of this.
In 2e AD&D, there was an archer kit (in Complete Book of Elves) that allowed a free shot before initiative. The PC had to announce they had an arrow nocked before encountering something. I wish 5e had more rules like this for classes.
I like the whole, "Everyone states their action, then roll together" aspect of things, because you narrate the people who passed their checks/hi their attacks first, and sometimes that can help explain why other players failed.
This is fantastic. This gave me an idea that’s a slight adjustment. Use the early bird idea and use that as the starting point for then going round the table from there. This way the order sort of changes each time.
I'm not sold on the early bird just because (as others have stated) I feel like it causes a monster "gold rush" for my fast talkers and my shy players and thoughtful players will not get a chance to participate first. I REALLY love the "monsters go on 11" idea though. I'm incorporating that into my homebrew rules today! I love the notion that the players feel like they win by rolling higher than 11. I've been watching a lot of your videos and they have all had amazing nuggets of wisdom! Thank you and I hope you keep up the content....you got my sub and a donation for all your great work.
It seems that Bob's initiative method is the ideal solution for his very specific group of players. Your shy player is a solid example of how this method creates a bigger problem than it solves. There are so many scenarios in which the early bird tweak -- just that part alone -- fails that I would say most groups are better off using rules as written than this method.
Another initiative option for this system: Have the players determine their seating order. Everyone (DM included) rolls initiative as normal. The one who goes the highest goes first. Play then goes clockwise around the table from there. Option: In a surprise situation mix things up even more roll a d6 or something to determine if play goes clockwise or counterclockwise. You could do this either as a simple 50/50 roll or weight it more likely to go in reverse if the opposing side has surprise. This will make a huge difference on how the combats flow depending if they were intentional or thrust upon everyone! (BTW this system is based off of one for an RPG I am developing but also has similarities to the system/feel in Darkest Dungeon, only without the changing character order.)
i really like the monsters go on 11 and 1 idea! i think i just love the traditional concept of rolling. as i introduce my gf into dnd with 1 on 1 sessions i want her to feel the rush of rolling well and getting to do her paladin smiting before the monsters get to hit her.
Yeah I've known WAY too many players who would absolutely abuse that early-bird attack. That's why there's also plenty of advice out there that says the opposite: when the ranger says "I fire an arrow," that's when you call for initiative, and the ranger can't ACTUALLY make that attack until it's their turn.
I've started using the Encounter Builder and Combat Tracker on D&D Beyond. It's a really great tool. I ask my players to roll initiative at the beginning of the session to "pre-load" it into the first encounter if/when it happens. Then when the first encounter is completed, we roll again to "pre-load" again, and then rinse, repeat throughout the session. It doesn't break tension and combat, when it is triggered, happens immediately with no "loading screen". Works for my group.
The issue I have with this is that going earlier in the combat is a strategy for high dex characters. There are feats and magic items that give you a boost to your initiative roll, meaning that the developers wanted it to be a central part of combat. I understand wanting to speed up the game, but there are some dynamic shortfalls to that.
Yea, high dex characters get a bonus to initiative. You also have Alert which gives a +5. If i was high dex with Alert and my initiative was being negated by some arbitrary system which doesn't factor in my bonus I'd be pissed off. Especially if Passive Perception wasn't zeroed out in a similar way since that takes your Wisdom modifier into account.
In my current campaign, with four players, I have the players sit around the table in order of their initiative bonuses, with highest bonus player immediately to my left. At the start of each combat encounter, I roll a 1 v 1 initiative, with the monsters rolling against my highest initiative player using her own bonus. If she wins the roll, initiative starts with her. If I win the roll, initiative starts with monsters. I am really liking this, as it has greatly sped up the process, the players are better aware of when their upcoming turn in the order occurs, and yet it still rewards the players who wanted to build a character with a higher initiative bonus.
Dexterity is kind of a god stat in 5e. It adds to stealth, ranged attack damage, armor class, several of the most commonly used skills, and initiative. A bit of a nerf in initiative is no great loss. High dex characters will still find plenty of use for it.
I’m not sure rolling initiative is the slow down; more the recording of order. A blend could be a quick ‘roll off’. Highest initiative starts. Second highest determines direction round table (for variation). This would account somewhat for initiative bonuses (including monsters) but still leaves a margin for the dice mix it up.
I started doing this about two years ago. Three players, sometimes four, plus me as DM. Super fast, no calculations, no writing things on a white board, easily explained to new players, it really is the best way.
Initiative is a lot like XP in the groups I've historical run and played in - the DM hates to do it, but the players look forward to it. People like 'going first'. I enjoy the early bird action idea, especially if someone could instead attempt a distraction/diplomacy attempt. Though, it does seem a lot of variant initiative is trying to solve the 'flow' of combat and player attention. For that certain telegraphing methods might work well too- mentioning who is next in the round after the current party member, winding up monsters attacks to give an idea of how the battle is turning, and narrating narrative flavor after a successful hit while damage is being rolled.
I do enjoy your tips here, and I have seen these in games I've done and been a part of. The round-the-table method would be sweet for in person games! I have always done initiative at the end of a long rest and keep it as a rolling total of how aware my players are. The key here is to change the mindset of what initiative can be, because it probably is more than reflexes in the moment. It's how strained your brain and body is plus how trained one is. So, I give the training the baseline at the beginning of the day and adjust the reflex abilities of the party throughout their day toward a combat and allow them agency to change it in preparation (with reason). So, they roll their initiative and it's locked for the day based on how well they slept or rested(the roll). I give positives and negatives for doing things to amp up their awareness prior to combat to give incentives for the common items that people often overlook and put weight and storage capacity (bags of holding are way too consistent and forgiving to me here, also Artifacers can break this) to the test. The initiative resets after the long rest. A short rest provides a bonus depending on what the players do during the rest. Although, if they are resting in a hostile situation, short resting can help monsters regroup or trigger them to the players presence in some way resulting in negative initiative overall. My fear with a lot of initiative stuff that doesn't roll is how it takes out some official, third party, and home brew things that add/subtract, or even move initiative around. I know my way isn't fool-proof, but it does what you're looking for in fluidity and provides an extra dimension for my players.
Initiative from The Black Hack, start of combat everyone checks Dex, those that pass goes before the monsters, those that fail goes after the monsters, simple! We also added 2handed weapons are slow so they always go after.
I should point out TBH is a roll under system, so you’re only rolling under Dex. If you want a little more crunch or using a roll high system + mods, then just set the DC based on monster speed.
I think, instead of at 11 and 1, maybe 10+Dex Mod and 1+Dex Mod -- faster monsters would be harder to hit. As the DM, you would know what these were beforehand, so you could still tell your players what those numbers would be.
I wonder if this would help with encounters of large numbers of enemies, the ones that take forever to finish a round. My only worry with monsters in the middle though is a ton of bad guys swarming a PC on their group turn, potentially not allowing other PC's to intervene. Could easily break these monsters into groups and have a monsters either side of the middle player group :)
Yeah, the effectiveness definitely drops with high numbers of monsters. Then a more even distribution is best... but who knows if you would get that by rolling randomly either!
I prefer rolling for initiative. I use roll20 and have a macro that automatically allows players to roll and have their initiative get sent to the turn order chart, so it's pretty trivial. The thing that really speeds up combat is that I impose a 5 second countdown the moment a player starts dithering, telling them that if they don't tell me what they do before I count down, they stay still and dodge for the round. Another thing that I find helps is reminding people when their turn is coming up. "Player X, it's your turn, Player Y, get ready" said just before asking what X does reminds Y that this is the moment they should be thinking about their turn. Do that enough times, and it becomes a habit.
Can see the early bird attack encouraging those itchy fingered players into trying to attack and take their shot before the more diplomatic players can get a word in. Not sure on that part
That's a good point. It really depends on playstyle. Most of my players are pretty experienced and usually try to talk their way through something, but if negotiations start to go sour, this gives them a chance to get a quick attack in before the combat technically starts
@@BobWorldBuilder I guess when it feels like this is happening the GM can quickly check with the rest of table before heading on. That brief moment check would have less distribution to the flow than rolling for initiative would.
Maybe they should be "tricked" a couple of times by having the aggressive reaction leading to bad consequences ? The bodyguard was ready for any attack and parry, the party got the wrong read on the real threat, attacking head front the hag leads to other fey creatures jumping out of the wood... Not systematically of course, but enough to understand they can't murder their way out of every discussion
Not going to lie, I feel like the early bird initiative idea is the reason 5e moved from suprise being a round of combat to being a condition. Which is something I think many people forget is a thing.
I go 10 + Dex for all combatants. Those who are naturally fast go first, it makes sense, easy to keep track and easier to manage. But Imma try out your method to see if it works.
I like it. The monster in the middle also lets support or healers become more meaningful. Yup my "Lockdown Locks" are a solid two years old ritual cast...
Glad you think so! Others have made a good argument that grouping monsters can make it hard for a healer to help before a character goes down. The way dnd works however, getting healed from unconsciousness is basically as effective as getting healed from low HP
I like the "players choose order" quite a bit, it reminds me of how the initiative system in Lancer works. I think it works for groups up to 7 regardless
@@BobWorldBuilder Lancer is a great Mech RPG, has some similarities to D&D 4e when it comes to combat, but smartly grabbed much of the out of combat rules from blades in the dark to fill out that area. I would definitely recommend taking a look at it.
I have one PC and one Monster roll Initiative. The side that wins goes first. 2 PCs or Monsters go then the other side goes, back and forth until all creatures have taken a turn then restarts. PCs and monsters can choose which of their sides turns to act on for each round. To solve the problem of going first to cast a spell and then changing order to get a longer duration out of an effect I simply told the players that if they abuse it the Monsters will abuse it too. I also give them a minute at the top of each round to strategise. This doesn't speed up combat but it does make it run smoothly and allows for more narration of the fight.
In my experience, having monsters go on an 11 will have them going after more than half the initiative-rolling players (because if they have a choice players will have some bonus to Dexterity nine characters out of ten, but it is a good idea.
@@BobWorldBuilder The obvious change would be to let them go on 11 plus their initiative modifier, but that ruins the elegance of your system. I think I may try it your way first, before experimenting.
Here is an idea derived from the miniatures game Bolt Action. At the top of everyone's character sheet write a number. The monsters get two numbers as well. Put chits with corresponding numbers in a bag or cup and randomly draw for who goes next. It's fast, changes things, raises the tension, keeps everyone engaged and thinking more tactically. It's just another method. Having played every type of game conceivable since the 1960's I realized that in the end all methods work as well as any other from IGOUGO to completely random.
We started using "the old ways" again: d6 for the party, d6 for the monsters, highest goes first, ties are simultaneous, clockwise from the DM. After a few play sessions we wondered why we ever stopped using this method. It's fast and simple. Everyone knows when their turn is coming up and there's no confusion. Plus, those simultaneous rounds add a bit of flavor and excitement. We roll initiative every round, so there's always a chance the party (or the monsters!) get to go twice in a row, which really makes combat go fast.
This is why I like to play with Roll20. I can just bulk roll all tokens and the turn tracker in Roll20 sorts them automatically. I use some API/plugins to achieve this, but the time from initiative rolls to battle start is like 2 seconds.
Yes, in Fantasy Grounds all initiatives are rolled with a mouse click. This solves the issue. On person I use two distinct methods, for 4 or more players, one generic roll at the begining of the combat for the whole group and then, on the player's turn, they choose who goes first. This encourages collaboration. On 3 players or less, I have been using classical method.
I played for awhile with Dungeon Craft's method and wound up trimming it a bit into a more streamlined method: 1) immediate reactions; first player who opens the door and sees the monster can declare what they are doing, or how they are reacting to that. 2) short group planning phase where they agree on the general plan of action. 3) players proceed in an order they agree on based on what works best: so if the wizard wants to cast sleep on the goblins he can go first and the others will deal with the aftermath, if they want to bar the door then the Barbarian goes first slamming the door shut and holding it closed while the fighter grabs and places the bar, or if they want to negotiate the bard starts off the party with some discuss or maybe the calm emotions spell. The trick being the players all get a chance to speak up first before anything big happens and can sort out how best to do that. None of this the barbarian rolled highest initiative and decided to just start killing everything in sight while the rest of the party was just their to talk or the wizard fire-balling the room after half the party had already rushed in. This also lets you transition scenes between combat, social, and skill encounters seamlessly, and lets the party try out different and unusual approaches to the problem.
I'm a big fan of monsters in the middle, but I think early bird might mess with balance too much. I can see why it improves the transition into combat, but what about having that first turn be the start of the first round, and then go around the group clockwise from there? No need to roll initiative and start with a surprise turn. The downside is that having a good initiative modifier becomes less important. It can still be used sometimes to determine who goes first when the narrative doesn't determine it, but it's still a nerf to some features and feats. This can be solved by letting players readjust their characters if they feel they're being nerfed.
Thanks! Yeah for 4-6 players, they still get to roll, so speedy characters get their bonus. For small or big groups, it just comes down to the other players being reasonable about letting that fast PC go first or sit in the right spot to go first
I like rolling init every round. It increases the tension in situations where "will the monster go first and get away/kill the hostage/raise the alarm/finish off one of the PCs" It adds realism in that carefully coordinated actions have a cost (delay your action and lose your reaction), or "darn it I was going to cast fireball but the barbarian charged into the area. Some times lets a character attack twice in succession (went last last round but first this round). As for speed rolling and adding takes next to no time and I just count it down "Above 20, 20, 19, 18, 17...) and the players sit in anticipation "will I be next?" and tend to shout out excitedly when their number comes up. The extra 5 to 20 seconds also lets slower players plan their move so they are not scratching their heads slowing everybody else down when their turn comes. Then there's the tie! Roll off against the monster to see which of you gets to strike first. So many clinch moments have happened in the roll-off.
The problem I see with this is that not all monsters and characters are created equal. The initiative stat is an extremely powerful stat, more so than people think. Increase the probability of starting a combat by only five percent can increase the probability of winning the fight by up to 40%! Especially for fights that are about equal. It is that powerful! Having a static initiative can disproportionately nerf/buff characters. For balance and strategy sake, no matter the initiative method, it must be random. Of course, if you value combat speed and story immersion, by all means, put it static. But be aware that your are removing some of the unpredictableness of the game, which is a core mechanic.
I've never heard those stats of relating initiative to probability of winning! That's a great point and I love how you phrased it in a constructive way. Thanks for commenting! :)
@@BobWorldBuilder The statistics come from a fight simulator I developed for 3.5E where I wanted to test class and ability balancing. In some very contrived situations ( like two level 1 fighters with longswords) where both sides are almost identical, I noticed the main factor for winning was the initiative (in hindsight, it's kinda obvious) more so than increasing damage, increasing attack bonus, or increasing AC. Which made me realize the importance of being the first to hit. Even in reality, i.e. LARPing, the first one to hit is often the one who will win.
I've been using a method taken from shadow of the demon Lord which speeds stuff up and allows for more setting each other up. Essentially you can take a fast or slow action. Fast is an action or movement, slow an action and movement. Just ask who's taking a fast action then do: Fast players Fast monsters Slow players Slow monsters The order they go is up to them
I've been in a DnD group for about a year and a half now, and half way through our campaign, we started using group initiative. The person that attacks first or is attacked first rolls initiative, and that determines the initiative for the whole group, who all go at once. The monsters also move in a group. This way, the players don't have to wait a long time to get to their turn. It's worked well, and has encouraged teamwork during combat.
I love the way you have addressed the biggest problems with RAW Initiative. Your method is really a great way to smooth out and simplify initiative. As a DM, you can always adjust your customize your BBEG, Lair actions, and legendary creatures to have them act on count 20. Can’t wait to use this at my table!
You have a pretty great voice, just wanted to start with that. My problem with your option for initiative here is when players spec into getting a higher initiative bonus. I once had a DM had us take turns around the table, but I had heavily invested into a speedster character who had an absurd bonus, and it was such a sour moment.
Thanks! Yeah for 4-6 players you'd still be rolling and the speedster bonus applies. For small or big groups, if your fellow players are reasonable, they should let such a character act first or have you sit in the right spot for it
I used to (and still) play a lot Call of Cthulhu or Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. In both games, the initiative is fixed and depends on a stat of the character. What I always did is to asked the players to sit around the table in the order of their initiative. Pretty efficient.
@@Poulpy37Cthulhu In the vanilla Warhammer rules the initiative is not fixed, it's 1d10 + Agility. Since Agility is a percentile value that hovers around 30 for humans, it's the main factor, but there's still quite a bit of variance. However, to speed up combat, I decided to forego the roll and just go in the order of Agility. Makes bookkeeping a lot easier.
I've tried team initiative; each team rolls a plain d20, higher roll goes first, then they just choose what order they go in its fast and fun, but the players get a huge advantage to their survivability because when someone goes down, they never have to make a death save before someone casts healing word
Yeah for normal size groups (4-6), I still recommend that! You could still have small groups do it without it taking much time, but for big groups, I'd rather minimize that pause before combat
A very simple trick I've found that works amazingly well is the "Fire Emblem" strategy of Hero Turn and Enemy Turn. First turn goes to whoever acts first, so if the party gets the drop on the baddies the party goes first but if the baddies catch the party they go first. After that the party can act in whatever order they want, which allows more dynamic strategy and tag-team tricks. Once everyone has acted things switch over so the baddies get their go. This massively speeds things up, greatly reduces the amount of note taking, and keeps players involved during the entire combat.
Yea thats the problem I have with these systems. One of my players combines the chronurgy wizard (add int+Dex to initiative) with gift of alacrity (+d8 to initiative) altert feat (+5) and a dagger of warding to go first and control the battlefield. Then, one day, they would sit at the wrong side of the table and go last, when the -2 Dex fighter goes first and the -3 dex monster also goes before the wizard.
@@leonpetrich5864 I mean, there is a rather simple fix to this. Let him go first if he reaaally cares that much and has made an effort to build the character to have high Initiative.
1-3 players: the other 2 players should be reasonable and let the speedy character go first! 4-6: they roll, so no problem. 7+: hopefully the DM is reasonable and lets the speedy player sit in the right spot to go first!
I have an ideo I want to try. Have the players roll initiative after combat and use those rolls for the next combat. That way you dont have to stop the game every time combat starts and it'll slow things down a bit after the high of combat.
I don't really agree with any of this. I find initiative is too core to the rules, and messing with it can de-rail combat quickly. I find the best way to do initiative is to pre-roll monsters that I know they will be coming up against, or maybe just pre-roll a load of d20s without DEX modifiers to change on the fly, and also get the players to roll initiative after a combat for the next combat, so there is very little difficulty in jumping into combat.
Ahh yes, pre-rolling was my first adjustment to initiative, but eventually I realized grouping enemies was nice for me. Rather than randomly roll every time, I just chose 11 and 1 as a way to keep it pre-determined and split them up
@@BobWorldBuilder - I posted this comment on another site, but I'm moving it here because you really do need to see this: Just no. To all of this. This heavily encourages players to jump on top of Cinematic narrative that the DM is trying to create, or more to the point it punishes players who are willing to wait for a DM to finish, and practically guarantees that SOMEONE is going to jump the gun the moment they hear something that could be construed as a threat. "You see a giant-" "I attack it!" "-crystal relic, the source of your quest, glowing with power, which you hit with your greatclub and shatter into pieces..." This also vastly overpower classes that specifically RELY on initiative, and gimp class/subclass that get features specifically giving bonuses to their initiative. If I'm an assassin, of course I'll choose to go first in initiative, EVERY. TIME. The whole point of rolling is that THE OPTIMAL RESULT DOESN'T ALWAYS HAPPEN. Sometimes you have a great plan but the monster goes before the lynchpin and throws everything into chaos. Sometimes everything is crap, but the monster rolls low and everyone gets to pile onto it before it can do its thing. THAT IS THE POINT OF D&D. And seriously, VTT? 99% of online D&D platforms (Fantasy Grounds, Roll20, Foundry, DnDBeyond) roll initiative with a single click and organize the entire turn order for you, what time are you even saving then? I started off just wanting to poke at some of the holes, but the further I thought about this, the more insulting it became that this aspect is just treated as a roadblock, when it is one of the most crucial aspects of the "you can TRY" philosophy.
@@GreyAcumen Absolutely this. I don't think Bob's method works for me. I've been playing both online and offline for multiple years and the biggest factor is not tracking or rolling it is people needing time to find their first action. This is even more apparent in online gaming. Also don't group monsters, especially bigger monsters. If a monster is closer in initiaitve order it gives insentive to be prioritised iin attacks. Multiple (stronger) monsters attacking at once, coordinated will take that advantage from the players. And as @Grey Acumen said, chaos is part of the narrative. Everyone is excited about the chances of combat. But playnning is only fun when you mix a little bit of chaos. Are you sticking to the plan or do you develop a new one? These interactions become boring. And you can always reorganize initiative by dropping if you really want to give up your initiative advantage for iit. This whole video is a "fix" for something that is not broken but an essential part of gameplay.
When I design encounters I always pre roll Monster initiative before the game even starts. I have custom sheets made up though with a 30-1 set of slots though it’s easy for me. Probably because I am ocd.
Great video! I use a variant of what you describe - group initiative. I have one player roll against the monsters. Either players go first, or monsters do. When the players go, they go around the table, but I also rotate who rolls each round, so the order always rotates. A round after you go first among the players, you will then move to the back of the queue, etc. it is fast, fair, and speeds up combat a lot.
But then there are certain abilities that become useless. My barbarian gets advantage on initiative rolls, but this class ability would essentially not exist with going around the table.
This reminds me of the Black Hack’s initiative system, (which is a D20 roll under with the same attributes as DnD). You roll a D20 and if it’s under your DEX you go before the monsters, but if it’s over your DEX you go after.
These ideas are novel. I personally dislike individual initiative because it makes working together feel awkward and needlessly contrived, so I do either group initiative or no initiative. In the cases it is paramount that someone does manage to go first I can always call for a roll at that particular moment.
Thank you! Yes, I'd like to experiment more with combo attacks. That was a homebrew adjustment we used in my first campaign before we learned he rules and it was tons of fun!
Glad to see I'm doing something right! For small encounters, I do like having the PC who is initiating combat go first, and go around the table in one direction. Then the next small encounter goes in the opposite direction. For big encounters with multiple enemies, I have everyone roll initiative.
I have a way I've been using for years. I write all the PC names as well as monsters on cards, shuffle them up each round, and draw them. I prefer this to players knowing when their turn is coming up, because if a player knows their turn isn't coming up for a while they can easily zone out and miss stuff. When I'm drawing a card, every player is staring at the deck in suspense hoping it's their or at least their ally's turn. Secondly, players have 10 seconds to declare an action from when their card is drawn; otherwise their card goes to the bottom of the initiative deck and they go last. If players need to ask a question or whatever, they can do that, but the clock is still ticking whenever I'm not talking to answer their question. Putting a little time pressure on the players keeps things moving quickly and with energy. Of course when a monster is drawn, I also declare what it's up to immediately, usually less than 5 seconds. This often means monsters make sub optimal choices. Good. Unless it's a genius monster I want it to make suboptimal choices in the heat of the moment. The nice thing with an initiative deck is that it takes next to no time to shuffle, compared to everyone rolling die and then comparing scores verbally and then writing or moving tokens around or whatever to track it. You shuffle the deck for 5 seconds, and it tracks itself. The only bad thing is that it removes the utility of initiative bonuses. I generally use initiative bonuses to help players get the first action at the beginning of a battle, but then it's random from there. This can be a nerf to some character builds that rely on strong initiative so you might want to consider giving such a character concept some kind of compensation buff, but in general, going first on the first round of combat is the most important use of such an ability so I give character concepts whose thing is high initiative the first action more preferentially than random chance.
I want to like the Early Bird idea, but I'm concerned this would regress into a verbal "Duck-Duck-Goose" type scenario. How do you account for the fact that you as the DM know where every monster is, and thus you are always already primed to "act first", unless in the interest of fairness you impose some arbitrary post-encounter-explanation delay on yourself to not be able to "react as monster" to your own description? ----OR--- once players understand this process, wouldn't they just always naturally and obnoxiously "SHOTGUN!" you the second you get to what they think is the end of your description, thus preventing you from ever Early Birding them? to use your troll example, why wouldn't you, except to save face as DM, just say: You lock eyes with a troll who's raising a deer leg to its mouth--AND IN ANGER IT THROWS THE LEG AT YOU (attack). What's fair for the players/your Troll vis-a-vis reaction time?
If the DM is competitive, that would be a problem! If the DM wants players to succeed and roleplays monsters based on how they should act in the given scenario, you're all good
@@BobWorldBuilder maybe you can address this in your follow up video? Your response doesn’t feel like much of a solution...it sounds more like Early Bird is simply: always let players get a free attack lest you as DM come off as “competitive”. Regardless, good work and good luck fighting the horde of haters :)
With the VTT I'm using, I can usually get the turn order setup with all the monsters rolling initiative before all my players finish rolling themselves, so it rarely takes more than 10-20 seconds to get it rolling. (usually closer to 5). I should probably say, I don't do individual initiative for each monster, each monster "group" get 1 roll. And I spend a decent amount of time preparing out of session.
Been playing D&D and RPGs since the 80s, all sorts of group sizes (3 - 9) all sorts of combat scenarios, all sorts of mob mixes. TBH rolling initiative and keeping track with just paper and pencil was never a time consuming thing and always added to the combat. Folks might be overthinking thinking this a bit...
@@BobWorldBuilder Fair enough my friend. Whatever works best for your table. I do appreciate the perspective. Keep putting out your great content!!! Cheers
(4:04) - Simpler 'Round Table' Initiative : For initiative, everyone rolls d20. Highest one goes first and that player chooses left or right. that is the direction around the table you proceed for who goes next. When you get to the DM, the monsters go. This method allows for random order (who goes first, when the monsters go, etc). In case of ties, choose either the characters Init bonus/Dex bonus/Dex score to see who is first (or let the players decide). Simple. 1 roll to determine who is first and then a direction around the table. Works for ANY size table. Note the monsters (DM) never goes first (unless you include the DM in the initiative roll).
I tend to do something similar: the monsters will always take their turn at their initiative bonus plus 10. I’m intrigued by the idea of minions going last. I may adapt that to my method.
I like the idea of all the PCs just standing there dumbfounded while the monsters they thought they got the jump on all turned around and started chewing on the tank's face before anyone could so much as lift a finger
Simplest method is the first one I learned, from the Holmes bluebook: The players go in DEX order, and the GM rolls the monster's DEX at the start. You can seat the players in DEX order so that it goes around the table in familiar fashion, with the GM jumping in at a different spot each time.
my initiative goes like this. players all roll a D20, one at a time. I allow the bad guys to act first if I feel the players are taken by surprise and vice versa. I jot down their results in order, on a sheet with rows labeled 1 through 20, with a new column for every round of combat. as each player acts, I write down a short note about what their action was. "attack missed" fireball 36 damage" "cure minor wounds +8hp " ect. My bad guys take their turns all at once. This not only speeds things up, but also adds a little bit of tension. As each player acts, I announce who goes next by referencing my combat sheet.
I actually roll monster initiatives before the session as part of my prep. Then, when my players roll initiative, I ask them for their initiative in whatever order I have their tokens set up on Roll20 (the initiative tracker thing). My players tend to know what they're doing in combat, and if they take too long on their turn I usually give them a nudge verbally. It runs smooth enough I think.
For my Dugeon of the Mad Mage campaign, i use a combination of early bird+Group initiative+monster in the middle. I have anywhere from 4-7 players at a time, so i just break them into squads at 3-4 max and min 2-2. The first squad to act has advantage on initiative and they both roll to see which squad goes first. During a squads turn, they can act in whichever order they want in however they want. Even between actions and movement. I then have the enemies be "monsters in the middle" with initiatives 15-7-1 or 20-10 and epic bosses can have 2 turns per round (if i dont have minions)
I often use marching order to determine initiative, or if the party is camping and beset upon in the night, those that are awake roll a perception check (passive perception for sleeping characters) and while they role play among themselves, I organise battle order before slapping the monster up in their grill.
I've been doing the "set in stone" turn order for the monsters for a good while. It just makes things a lot easier to manage without a random element making my boss monsters destroy the team right out the gate. It also allows me to fudge initiative for when the turn order looks to be going against the players. Giving the boss a 1 or 20 in the order also makes it super easy to keep track of how many times legendary actions were used in a round.
I use standard initiative and just write it down on the whiteboard for d&d and takes like 20 seconds so no biggy for us. Online is super easy. Roll a dice linked to initiative and it tracks it immediately. One button click for me for the monsters and they are all tracked. Then I click a button and it goes through initiative My other game (Conan 2d20) I play does something closer to what you recommend which is all heroes go first follow by monsters. But there is a special resource called doom which the GM can expend to allow a monster to interrupt the flow and go whenever they want. I won't go into specifics of doom because it's too complicated but it's really fun and heightens the suspense when there is a big pool of it (it can be used for many other things)
I like it. I subbed. I play a loose game with newb kids and non-gamer parents. So I do the boardgame approach, passing turns to the left, passing a giant red d20 like that one you have in the background to signify who's turn it is. Pass the die to the left! Hurry I want to light him on fire! Players can trade turns if they want, but they rarely do. Sometimes an enemy surprises them from the rear, and then I do reverse turn order. Lol. Players always go first unless they get ambushed. Like if they go through a door without checking first, the dudes inside will go first. Or if they check, but don't look up to see the giant spider on the ceiling, spider goes first. It's a very simple beer and pretzels style way to play.
When I run for players that are new I use a timer. Everyone at the table gets 1 minute to declare intent for the turn and start rolling. If rolls or calculations take longer than a minute they tell me when they have a moment to speak. If they don’t declare an action, example: they move but can’t decide on a spell, their turn ends with whatever they have done or are slightly distracted for the turn(no negative consequence besides not doing anything). I usually go around the table for these games. If I have an experienced table I have them roll initiative during an initial planning phase where they can hash out their tactics for the fight, out of game. The initiative is basically a check vs fastest monster to see which group goes first, players decide their own order. Experienced tables are usually ran in a more tactical manner, combat wise, monsters are assumed to be intelligent enough(there are always exceptions for notoriously dumb enemies) to determine who is the biggest threat or will react accordingly to players actions.
I've started a recent campaign experimenting with initiative. I do a group/no roll hybrid. I let my players choose their initiative order (basically them planning battle strategies before going out into danger), then, when they fight a group of enemies, I roll a d20. On evens, players go first, on odds, enemy group goes first. It may not be the most realistic, but it has certainly worked so far. No more forgetting whose turn it is in the middle of the initiative.
One cool system a guy was using in Pathfinder Society was a magnetic white board about tablet sized, and little cut up pieces of magnet white board we could write our characters' names on, and then he used a small colorful magnet to denote whose turn it was along the side next to the name magnets. He'd just slide it down every time a turn concludes and return it to the top at the beginning of the next full turn.
So how i like to do it with my group of 5 is i have a Excel sheet which has three columns. Column 1 - name, Column 2 - deatils (AC, conditions, etc), Column 3 intiative. Then I write the monsters in before the session with the players names at the bottom, when they roll intiative i fill in their boxs highlight the whole table and hit sort to cut a lot of time out. I like it because it maintains the abilty for monsters to spread out across intiative which works well for how our group likes to run combat
Hi Bob! I was stumbling into old videos when I came upon this and wanted to respond. I have been using the "11-1" system for quite some time now with one twist...Legendary lair actions go first, boss monsters go on 20, and the normal monsters and minions go on 11 and 1 as you have it here. I agree with your comments that telling the players when monsters go really ratchets up the tension. The group pretty much looks at those with the highest modifiers (I allow main stat used as initiative instead of just DEX) and sees how they roll before developing a strategy. Knowing that the monsters go before or after you makes the group revise their tactics accordingly. Thanks for introducing me to this!
In my experience when all the monsters go at the same time, then a player gets ganged up on without the players having an opportunity to do anything about it, or the monsters all die before they can do anything. This can happen with the initiative roles but it breaks up how often it happens
There is a method in Giffyglyph's book, Darker Dungeons, that I find helps keep combat faster paced and keeps it from getting as stale as always having the same turn order(going around the same circle on the table) called Active Initiative. Wherein, "there is no pre-determined order of initiative. Instead, once a person has finished their turn, they get to choose who goes next-another player, group of monsters, or environmental hazard." But a player would never choose a monster to go after them, except maybe a barbarian trying to be funny, but Giffyglyph thought of this and added, "Interrupting: Anyone who took damage during your turn can steal the initiative from you at the end of your turn (see Interrupting), so be careful who you attack." Obviously, you only get one turn per round, and the last person chooses the first person for the next round. I dunno, the little I experimented with it, it has really sped up combat in terms of turn order. Cannot fix how long players take to decide on their actions for the turn though...
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I know it's complicated & i'm trying to find a way to pull this off. I am trying to observe the fact that combat happens in 6 seconds per round. I wanted to make a sort of speed chess method where around the table it's first action, second action & 3rd or more & so on. What those actions are depend on which player does which move to set up either their own or another's action. The speed part implies a quick decision making process adding an element of chaos to be sure. If a party in their rest periods has that conversation about "what you did here was great but seemed wasted since no one else was able to take advantage. If you waited until this moment or I delayed until you went that changes things greatly." I think of it as playing an audible in combat that had been discussed before they break camp. The same could work for watch rotations. Waking the guy who just was relieved means that person is sleepy & tired AF. Waking the next watch kind of makes more sense if the whole party isn't needed will account for the adrenaline high that the oncoming watch won't overcome before their watch starts & so on. Just a few ideas here.
I'm just starting to watch your videos but something bothered me, you look like someone but I couldn't remember until today... David Van Driessen (the hippie teacher from Beavis and Butthead)
Why not just give everyone a "roll" of 10. So if they have an initiative of 4, they always default at 14. The same with monsters.
Alternative to just going around the table:
Players and DM roll one D20 each. Highest roll starts. Then his neighbor with the higher roll. From there on we go around the table in the direction we're already going. Optional: Seating must be rearenged every rest. Maybe by dice roll 😀
I've been saying this for years: the only thing that slows down combat in D&D is the player not knowing what they're doing. You can use any trick you want, you can roll the monster's initiatives previously, you can roll attack and damage at the same time, etc... not of that really matters if the players still don't know what to do or how their abilities works.
Great point. Players being knowledgeable and prepared probably has the greatest effect on combat time, but I think these other "tricks" can smooth out the rough edges
I feel like you sit in on my games. It's always, "OK, your turn, what do you do?" "Uhhhh...what does this character class ability do again?" Facepalm.
Every single time it's always some dumb dumb who wanted to play a full caster and wants to feel special looking through their spells. Then mocks the fighter for being done with their turn in a few seconds. Even with great weapon fighter, and multiple attacks with action surge my turn takes 30 seconds max. Move roll all your attacks. Divide them up if an attack kills and share the love with the next enemy(if you have movement) that's the turn. Magical lol
I was going to defend rolling attack and damage together saving a lot of time in my experience, but if my players knew what they were doing, it wouldn't save much time anymore
I just don't have the mental capacity to remember my mods for some reasona
Knowing my players if I gave them the option for an early bird attack I'd have a whole lot of dead NPCs that never got the chance to speak.
Ha ha, I think the solution there is to have them start to speak right away before the players attack.
This might be the worse suggestion I’ve ever seen for changing initiative.
@Creatotron it also rewards interrupting the description of the scene. Basically the rudest player gets to attack first. I feel like this might be some kind of “gotch-ya.” Or playing both sides against the middle. I’m having a hard time believing this is an honest suggestion.
@Creatotron it also rewards interrupting the description of the scene. Basically the rudest player gets to attack first. I feel like this might be some kind of “gotch-ya.” Or playing both sides against the middle. I’m having a hard time believing this is an honest suggestion.
Oh no!
I've always loved the pause right after the DM says "roll for initiative". Its a great moment to get into combat mode and it gives you a few seconds to plan what you will do your first tur.
Same! It also gives you a few moments to process a plot line that resulted in a fight or process a big unexpected foe. You basically stretch that anticipation out instead of just dropping it
for me "roll initiative" was like a "entering combat" screen for Final Fantasy or something like that, specially when it's a boss it always get's me hyped
At my table players have always enjoyed and been invested in rolling for initiative. I don't know why everyone is trying to "fix" it.
It also fairly accurately simulates that "Everything seemed to slow down" moment you read about and see in a lot of media
"Six cowled men emerge from the crowd. The glint of steel shines as they unsheathe concealed blades and converge upon your group. Assassins!"
/Dramatic pause, DM looks around the table
*"Roll for Initiative."*
^ Is kind of an iconic D&D trope, though. It would be sad to see it go.
Haha exactly, with this method you still get to say it for normal sized groups :P
"In the middle of the room you see a wooden chest. Roll for initiative."
I like using a mix of early bird and initiative order. I build my encounters on dndbeyond and automatically roll for monsters. But players that state action that make sense to resolve before initiative get to do it.
@@BobWorldBuilder Sometimes, depending on the table, I have initiative going outside of combat, too. It helps with online groups that interrupt one another frequently and for rowdy tables. :)
@@BobWorldBuilder One potential way to keep "roll for initiative" in for the large group size would be to have everyone roll initiative, and the highest roll is the one that starts the round robin for that combat. I don't know how that works in practice since I just came up with it. I've been looking for and trying out various initiative alternatives because it takes so long for us to figure out turn order, even though I have 5 players, which should be reasonable. I'm definitely giving the monsters go on 11 method a shot, or reworking it to minions go on turn 11, mini-bosses go on turn 13, bosses go on turn 15, and legendary creatures go on turn 17.
"No initiative" method was horrible in practice; table order initiative was pretty good but I had to figure out the most equitable way to insert monster turns into that. However, it disadvantages certain class abilities and high stats like taking away things like having an Advantage on initiative - I had some players express disappointment that their class abilities were essentially nullified. Group initiative is pretty good but suffers from same issues. My preferred way is to roll initiative once at the beginning of the session and then that's the initiative order for the rest of the session. If a player wants to reroll their initiative they have to take an action on their turn to pause, assess the situation, and then roll a new initiative (few players take that option).
Pre-rolling is another great fix to the problem of initiative slowing things down!
I also use that reroll rule
I worried about this too, like the Alert feat and the barbarian ability. I would probably just give change those abilities to “you can always choose to Earlybird act” or you get a surprise round every combat.
Means the players can seat in initiative order around the table as well.
@@joemacleod-iredale2888 Yes, was going to point out the same thing
I like the idea of monsters in the middle- the only alteration I'd make is that instead of 'on 11', the monsters go on 'passive Initiative' (ie 10+dex). I think that would feel a little more dynamic, while still keeping the bulk of monsters around the middle (and making outliers special!)
That's a good tweak! Thanks for commenting :)
Hey! Just wrote this exact same comment haha, glad to see this makes some sense beyond my own caffeine addled mind.
Nice work! 🤝
Passive Initiative would also be good for PCs.
1. PCs with the same initiative bonus can choose who goes first.
2. Abilities that add to their initiative can easily be reworded as "Your Passive Initiative is calculated as 10 + your Dexterity modifier + [whatever additional bonus, such as Intelligence modifier for War Magic Wizards]".
3. Abilities that grant advantage on initiative could be refactored to be "When determining your initiative during combat, make an Initiative Check, using the result of this check in place of your Passive Initiative if it is higher."
Pocketing this one for my home game.
@@deffdefying4803 for #3, you could also rule it the same way permanent advantage works for other passive skills, which is +5 to the relevant skill, so Passive Initiative for such a character would be 10+Dex+5
Early bird attack seems like a good way to encourage the players to all shout at you at once.
"I ATTACK!"
It definitely depends on player attitude and the types of characters they play
As DM, you pick which PC is closest to a sudden monster appearance. Each combat, pick a new PC. Your players might catch on, if they pay attention, but you can also make sure that the injured PCs find low-level mooks, and buff heroes get set upon by a lieutenant of the Big Bad.
I did the Early Bird method when I first DMd, and a friend of mine is doing it now that he's starting to DM. My experience is the spell caster quickly turns into The Wizard from XP to Level 3. "I cast Fireball."
Haha, I'm hearing that from other comments as well. They still have to learn not to shoot from the hip :P
@@BobWorldBuilder Time to introduce casting failures and magical mishaps!
@@benvoliothefirst, or you tell them that fireball takes too long, but a cantrip or bonus action spell will work. We didn't let the fighter take his full attack action, and so we're not letting the caster perform a full casting action.
Change the verbiage to “I cast a spell” To be fair a cantrip is the most likely as burning a spell slot is unlikely. They also should be allowed to roll an intelligence check to see if they have an in character knowledge of what would work better (fire vs cold; charm vs attack)
So people in the comments don't want to use the system already in the game so they create a new system and then punish the players for adapting to that system and learning how to utilize it better? That sounds like a real great idea.
Professor DungeonMaster highly approves.
Hey! Thank you, Professor. Looks like a number of people found this video through a post of yours. Much appreciated!
Collab when?
If he says its good. Its good.
The best advice I've EVER recieved was to push minor bookkeeping tasks like initiative and time progression on select players. I'm lucky I have one player who loves to take initiative and discuss strats based on it and one that THRIVES on keeping track of the number of hours that pass in any given session. I can focus more on combat and story but still get that attention to detail that makes a campaign feel alive.
Totally, DM assistants can really keep the game moving! :)
Great idea!
I like the idea of monsters go on 11 and minions on 1. Also, lair effects on 20!
Thanks! Yes can't forget those lair effects!
The transition from roleplay to combat can be greatly smoothed by having the players pre-roll initiative at the start of the session, then using that initiative when it comes up
Great point!
Good Idea, but you might have to take sitational factors into account and have to switch it up later ... hmm.
And I assume you reroll after each encounter for the next one?
great idea, then sit them acordingly. That way it's visualy easy to know who goes next but it also doesn't make initiative booster feats/magic items useless
That's what I was doing wrong! Cutting my hair the whole time while learning to DM.
It's an easily overlooked mistake that many beginner DMs make 💇🚫
That's where my DM powers come from!
I'd award inspiration for this comment! Have a like.
Rolling initiative is fun, thematic, and mechanically important. Getting a good initiative is an important consideration when building a character. I know there aren't many hot takes left in 5e, but there's no need to just ignore mechanics when the only real way of speeding up combat is having engaged and knowledgeable players
One thing I want to note that you seem to disregard, intentionally or not, I can not say, is that initiative is a stat, an ability check using your dexterity. It is a very useful stat, as high initiative is generally quite powerful. If you go early in the turn order, you might have earned yourself a whole extra turn in combat, and it gives you the opportunity to remove or deny the turns of enemy creatures either through debuffs or straight up killing them before they can act. Not only can a caster potentially swing a whole fight on the first turn if they go before the enemies, it is also useful for characters wanting to get into a good position to deal damage, stay safe or protect the party. Therefore some people build around it. There are many class features, spells, magic items and even a feat that improves your initiative roll, in addition to just increasing your dexterity and some people build around said features.
My point is just that removing initiative can really change the game as it is a core mechanic that combat is built around and removing it nerfs some characters.
I agree, and this method either includes the initiative stat, or leaves it in the hands of the group. For example: If you have 1-3 players and they choose their initiative, hopefully they'll be nice and let the player with high initiative go first. If you have 4-6 and roll, no problem. If you have 7+ and go around the table, have them sit where you'll start the round.
Agreed, I'm playing an arcane trickster in a 5e game and I've considered the Alert feat for that +5 initiative. Because I need to go as soon as possible to both get proper positioning for sneak attacks and to cast spells like sleep and color spray. If you finick with how turns work too much then you mess with other aspects of the game.
@@slydoorkeeper4783 but if your group sets this as the standard for how you plan to do initiative for all future combats then you will know that you won’t need to grab alert and can instead grab a different feat that would be more beneficial to you and your group. What I’m getting at is this should be a rule established in session 0 so that you know this is how initiative will work moving forward and you can create a character accordingly. And remember if you don’t like this idea then just don’t use it.
@@billfrosby8081 tbf though, even without the +5 to initiative, the anti surprise mechanic is still nice (in a niche way.).
One idea I've had that (but haven't had a chance to playtest yet) is that if you go without initiative rolls, but are hacking 5e so characters still have an initiative bonus, on the first round of combat, characters can add their initiative bonus to one attack roll, ability check, or defence roll (they declare they do so before rolling). If they get advantage on initiative then they get advantage on a roll of their choice too. That way characters who build around getting good initiative scores will be basically guaranteed to get off a good attack on the first round of combat
Great video Bob! Great thoughts.
Back when I played at a real table I often used the "go around the table" approach for any battle that wasn't a big boss fight. It worked well and the players were happy. Depending on the circumstances the monsters either got the early-bird attack or the players did which determined whether it started with the DM or started with the first player and the DM went last. That was generally fine. This was, like you say, a sort of surprise round option.
Like you, I used static monster initiative when we rolled for initiative. It saved me a roll and helped the monsters not get hosed by starting at the very end of a boss fight.
When playing online I've set up a macro using the Avrae Discord bot in which I already have everyone's initiative bonus and it auto-rolls for everyone and dumps out a list so everyone can see it. It's *way* faster than having everyone roll but players do feel like it is out of their hands and they get screwed when Avrae rolls low for them. Still, they've gotten over it and it's really fast to do. I expect D&D Beyond will soon have an auto-roll for initiative in their encounter builder which will be equally nice.
I'm hoping to get back to a table soon for at least one of my games and will probably return to the "around the table" initiative system I've enjoyed in the past.
Great topic!
Thanks Mike! It does seem like major VTTs have solved this age old issue, but my players definitely prefer rolling-- sometimes when D&D Beyond rolls low, they switch to real dice haha, so I don't think the macro would fly :P
I really liked the "monsters in the middle" approach, thanks!
I have read something interesting in reddit, someone suggested a new state a bit lower than "normal surprise" which instead of free turn to the faster side, it gives advantage on initiative rolls to the faster side, it comes very handy sometimes and more balanced than the surprise in some cases.
That seems like a good adjustment!
Has Initiative really been that big of a problem for people? The only issue I've ever had is when roll20 breaks and doesn't add people to the turn order
Haha, yeah VTTs have solved pretty much all of these issues too :P
The roll20 turn order probably breaks because the player did not click on their token to make it active before either rolling a d20 in the vtt or using the initiative stat in their DnDBeyond character sheet through the beyond20 extension.
We're talking about when people are playing without Roll20.
In person and online for me, initiative has never been an issue. The only time its been relative is when someone needed to answer a phone call or in my case, either my wifi decided to crash or I needed to switch computers. But after people got caught up it went back to no issues.
With a big table (7 players), I’ve had players roll and then go around the table from the high number. Let’s one player benefit from high initiative and have ease of knowing who’s next.
Nice blend of methods!
I have a plinko board and each character has a token associated and I let the faster characters drop first. I play with small groups so this works out nice. We get a little bit of randomness, fun mini game, and a visual reminder of the order.
Haha that sounds fun!
I love my VTT software. I roll one button and everyone is in initiative order, no fuss about anything.
That's magical :D
Yeah, I love it. It also gets rid of the (for me) boring "all monsters of a type get the same initiative". It makes each encounter much more dynamic.
Hey Bob, just discovered your channel the other day and really enjoy the content!
I personally use the turn order system from Wrath and Glory 2.0 for my 5e games, as I have found it to be the quickest for my groups.
The turn system starts by the players choosing who goes first, and after each player turn it is an enemy turn. (I also do the narrative "early bird gets the worm" attack stuff as well.)
For example.
1. player decide PC-1 goes first
2. DM decides which monster's turn
3. players decide PC-4 goes now
4. dm decides which monster's turn.
so on and so forth.
Generally I just order the monsters in the order of "who is narratively fastest" or by order of minions>normals>elites>bosses.
Sometimes I include some monsters that are "very fast" that break the normal order and go monster first rather than player.
The system works a bit better in wrath and glory 2.0 but I still like it in 5e as well!
Keep up the great videos!
Yeah, not a fan of the early bird rule. I think it encourages "shoot first, ask questions later" approach too much. One free turn at the beginning is a pretty strong incentive. If I were to adopt the early bird rule, I think I'll offer my player the choice: "You can take your action right now, but you'll forfeit your normal initiative spot in the first round, meaning you could potentially be waiting quite a bit until your turn comes in the second round. Are you sure you want to be the early bird?" Maybe that could be a workable tradeoff.
I do like the idea of changing the initiative style depending on group size, and having all the minions go at the end while the main monster goes at a predetermined spot in the initiative order. I run games with 3 players, and I think they'll be amiable to this change. I ought to try it out.
Yeah early bird does really depend on play style now that I think about it. Everyone I play with is very diplomatic haha
I agree. I'm about to run the Umbrage Quest in Icespire peak and I feel that this would make my players immediately attack the manticore. I'm hoping that they consider roleplaying and convince the manticore to leave the lady, Adabra, alone, such as by bribing it.with food and / or healing it airh a potion. So I'm definitely not keen on encouraging shoot first, ask questions later.
I think what I might try is that every round, or for every major battle (because I often have one sneak up behind them!) I'll have them ro) initiative - whoever rolls highest wins and then we go clockwise from there.
This is my thinking too. Many campaign have several interesting and intimidating foes that *could* be resolved with battle, but are more interestingly and satisfyingly resolved through non-lethal, semi-lethal, or RP-based means. Early Bird robs campaigns of this.
In 2e AD&D, there was an archer kit (in Complete Book of Elves) that allowed a free shot before initiative. The PC had to announce they had an arrow nocked before encountering something. I wish 5e had more rules like this for classes.
That's a great adjustment! :)
I like the whole, "Everyone states their action, then roll together" aspect of things, because you narrate the people who passed their checks/hi their attacks first, and sometimes that can help explain why other players failed.
This is fantastic. This gave me an idea that’s a slight adjustment. Use the early bird idea and use that as the starting point for then going round the table from there. This way the order sort of changes each time.
That's awesome! Glad you could find some inspiration from this!
I'm not sold on the early bird just because (as others have stated) I feel like it causes a monster "gold rush" for my fast talkers and my shy players and thoughtful players will not get a chance to participate first. I REALLY love the "monsters go on 11" idea though. I'm incorporating that into my homebrew rules today! I love the notion that the players feel like they win by rolling higher than 11. I've been watching a lot of your videos and they have all had amazing nuggets of wisdom! Thank you and I hope you keep up the content....you got my sub and a donation for all your great work.
It seems that Bob's initiative method is the ideal solution for his very specific group of players. Your shy player is a solid example of how this method creates a bigger problem than it solves. There are so many scenarios in which the early bird tweak -- just that part alone -- fails that I would say most groups are better off using rules as written than this method.
Another initiative option for this system: Have the players determine their seating order. Everyone (DM included) rolls initiative as normal. The one who goes the highest goes first. Play then goes clockwise around the table from there.
Option: In a surprise situation mix things up even more roll a d6 or something to determine if play goes clockwise or counterclockwise. You could do this either as a simple 50/50 roll or weight it more likely to go in reverse if the opposing side has surprise.
This will make a huge difference on how the combats flow depending if they were intentional or thrust upon everyone! (BTW this system is based off of one for an RPG I am developing but also has similarities to the system/feel in Darkest Dungeon, only without the changing character order.)
These are great alterations! Thanks for commenting :D
i really like the monsters go on 11 and 1 idea! i think i just love the traditional concept of rolling. as i introduce my gf into dnd with 1 on 1 sessions i want her to feel the rush of rolling well and getting to do her paladin smiting before the monsters get to hit her.
Thank you! Yeah you make a great case for this method!
Great stuff!
I let my players burn inspiration points to " become the director" for a scene. As long as it moves the story along, I let it fly!
Well said! That's some collaborative story-telling right there.
Yeah I've known WAY too many players who would absolutely abuse that early-bird attack. That's why there's also plenty of advice out there that says the opposite: when the ranger says "I fire an arrow," that's when you call for initiative, and the ranger can't ACTUALLY make that attack until it's their turn.
Yeah, this definitely depends on player self-control! :P
I've started using the Encounter Builder and Combat Tracker on D&D Beyond. It's a really great tool. I ask my players to roll initiative at the beginning of the session to "pre-load" it into the first encounter if/when it happens. Then when the first encounter is completed, we roll again to "pre-load" again, and then rinse, repeat throughout the session. It doesn't break tension and combat, when it is triggered, happens immediately with no "loading screen". Works for my group.
Online play does seem to solve this issue for the most part!
The issue I have with this is that going earlier in the combat is a strategy for high dex characters. There are feats and magic items that give you a boost to your initiative roll, meaning that the developers wanted it to be a central part of combat. I understand wanting to speed up the game, but there are some dynamic shortfalls to that.
Yea, high dex characters get a bonus to initiative. You also have Alert which gives a +5. If i was high dex with Alert and my initiative was being negated by some arbitrary system which doesn't factor in my bonus I'd be pissed off.
Especially if Passive Perception wasn't zeroed out in a similar way since that takes your Wisdom modifier into account.
In my current campaign, with four players, I have the players sit around the table in order of their initiative bonuses, with highest bonus player immediately to my left. At the start of each combat encounter, I roll a 1 v 1 initiative, with the monsters rolling against my highest initiative player using her own bonus. If she wins the roll, initiative starts with her. If I win the roll, initiative starts with monsters. I am really liking this, as it has greatly sped up the process, the players are better aware of when their upcoming turn in the order occurs, and yet it still rewards the players who wanted to build a character with a higher initiative bonus.
Dexterity is kind of a god stat in 5e. It adds to stealth, ranged attack damage, armor class, several of the most commonly used skills, and initiative. A bit of a nerf in initiative is no great loss. High dex characters will still find plenty of use for it.
I’m not sure rolling initiative is the slow down; more the recording of order. A blend could be a quick ‘roll off’. Highest initiative starts. Second highest determines direction round table (for variation). This would account somewhat for initiative bonuses (including monsters) but still leaves a margin for the dice mix it up.
I started doing this about two years ago. Three players, sometimes four, plus me as DM. Super fast, no calculations, no writing things on a white board, easily explained to new players, it really is the best way.
Initiative is a lot like XP in the groups I've historical run and played in - the DM hates to do it, but the players look forward to it. People like 'going first'. I enjoy the early bird action idea, especially if someone could instead attempt a distraction/diplomacy attempt.
Though, it does seem a lot of variant initiative is trying to solve the 'flow' of combat and player attention. For that certain telegraphing methods might work well too- mentioning who is next in the round after the current party member, winding up monsters attacks to give an idea of how the battle is turning, and narrating narrative flavor after a successful hit while damage is being rolled.
Great points! I always mention who is "on deck" to try to keep my players focused
I do enjoy your tips here, and I have seen these in games I've done and been a part of. The round-the-table method would be sweet for in person games!
I have always done initiative at the end of a long rest and keep it as a rolling total of how aware my players are. The key here is to change the mindset of what initiative can be, because it probably is more than reflexes in the moment. It's how strained your brain and body is plus how trained one is. So, I give the training the baseline at the beginning of the day and adjust the reflex abilities of the party throughout their day toward a combat and allow them agency to change it in preparation (with reason).
So, they roll their initiative and it's locked for the day based on how well they slept or rested(the roll). I give positives and negatives for doing things to amp up their awareness prior to combat to give incentives for the common items that people often overlook and put weight and storage capacity (bags of holding are way too consistent and forgiving to me here, also Artifacers can break this) to the test. The initiative resets after the long rest. A short rest provides a bonus depending on what the players do during the rest. Although, if they are resting in a hostile situation, short resting can help monsters regroup or trigger them to the players presence in some way resulting in negative initiative overall.
My fear with a lot of initiative stuff that doesn't roll is how it takes out some official, third party, and home brew things that add/subtract, or even move initiative around. I know my way isn't fool-proof, but it does what you're looking for in fluidity and provides an extra dimension for my players.
Those are great alternatives! thanks for sharing them here :)
I like the idea of "Monsters in the middle" but I don't know how I feel about "The Early Bird" attacks.
Glad you like part of this idea! Take it and make it your own :)
Initiative from The Black Hack, start of combat everyone checks Dex, those that pass goes before the monsters, those that fail goes after the monsters, simple! We also added 2handed weapons are slow so they always go after.
I should point out TBH is a roll under system, so you’re only rolling under Dex. If you want a little more crunch or using a roll high system + mods, then just set the DC based on monster speed.
Found Bob for his Icespire Peak tips.
Came back for all the DM tips.
but I’m staying for that luscious beautiful hair.
Haha hopefully the DM tips too :P
I think, instead of at 11 and 1, maybe 10+Dex Mod and 1+Dex Mod -- faster monsters would be harder to hit. As the DM, you would know what these were beforehand, so you could still tell your players what those numbers would be.
Yeah I think that's a nice change for more variability!
I wonder if this would help with encounters of large numbers of enemies, the ones that take forever to finish a round. My only worry with monsters in the middle though is a ton of bad guys swarming a PC on their group turn, potentially not allowing other PC's to intervene. Could easily break these monsters into groups and have a monsters either side of the middle player group :)
Yeah, the effectiveness definitely drops with high numbers of monsters. Then a more even distribution is best... but who knows if you would get that by rolling randomly either!
I prefer rolling for initiative. I use roll20 and have a macro that automatically allows players to roll and have their initiative get sent to the turn order chart, so it's pretty trivial. The thing that really speeds up combat is that I impose a 5 second countdown the moment a player starts dithering, telling them that if they don't tell me what they do before I count down, they stay still and dodge for the round.
Another thing that I find helps is reminding people when their turn is coming up. "Player X, it's your turn, Player Y, get ready" said just before asking what X does reminds Y that this is the moment they should be thinking about their turn. Do that enough times, and it becomes a habit.
Can see the early bird attack encouraging those itchy fingered players into trying to attack and take their shot before the more diplomatic players can get a word in. Not sure on that part
That's a good point. It really depends on playstyle. Most of my players are pretty experienced and usually try to talk their way through something, but if negotiations start to go sour, this gives them a chance to get a quick attack in before the combat technically starts
@@BobWorldBuilder I guess when it feels like this is happening the GM can quickly check with the rest of table before heading on. That brief moment check would have less distribution to the flow than rolling for initiative would.
As the diplomatic player (bard with expertise in deception and persuasion) this would scare the shit out of me
Maybe they should be "tricked" a couple of times by having the aggressive reaction leading to bad consequences ? The bodyguard was ready for any attack and parry, the party got the wrong read on the real threat, attacking head front the hag leads to other fey creatures jumping out of the wood...
Not systematically of course, but enough to understand they can't murder their way out of every discussion
Not going to lie, I feel like the early bird initiative idea is the reason 5e moved from suprise being a round of combat to being a condition. Which is something I think many people forget is a thing.
I go 10 + Dex for all combatants. Those who are naturally fast go first, it makes sense, easy to keep track and easier to manage. But Imma try out your method to see if it works.
Hey if your players are all on board for the method you described, I would keep that haha, very simple!
I like it. The monster in the middle also lets support or healers become more meaningful. Yup my "Lockdown Locks" are a solid two years old ritual cast...
Glad you think so! Others have made a good argument that grouping monsters can make it hard for a healer to help before a character goes down. The way dnd works however, getting healed from unconsciousness is basically as effective as getting healed from low HP
I like the "players choose order" quite a bit, it reminds me of how the initiative system in Lancer works. I think it works for groups up to 7 regardless
Haven't heard of Lancer. Thanks!
@@BobWorldBuilder Lancer is a great Mech RPG, has some similarities to D&D 4e when it comes to combat, but smartly grabbed much of the out of combat rules from blades in the dark to fill out that area. I would definitely recommend taking a look at it.
I have one PC and one Monster roll Initiative. The side that wins goes first. 2 PCs or Monsters go then the other side goes, back and forth until all creatures have taken a turn then restarts. PCs and monsters can choose which of their sides turns to act on for each round. To solve the problem of going first to cast a spell and then changing order to get a longer duration out of an effect I simply told the players that if they abuse it the Monsters will abuse it too. I also give them a minute at the top of each round to strategise. This doesn't speed up combat but it does make it run smoothly and allows for more narration of the fight.
That sounds like a great method!
In my experience, having monsters go on an 11 will have them going after more than half the initiative-rolling players (because if they have a choice players will have some bonus to Dexterity nine characters out of ten, but it is a good idea.
In that case, maybe a higher number would make more sense!
@@BobWorldBuilder The obvious change would be to let them go on 11 plus their initiative modifier, but that ruins the elegance of your system. I think I may try it your way first, before experimenting.
Here is an idea derived from the miniatures game Bolt Action. At the top of everyone's character sheet write a number. The monsters get two numbers as well. Put chits with corresponding numbers in a bag or cup and randomly draw for who goes next. It's fast, changes things, raises the tension, keeps everyone engaged and thinking more tactically. It's just another method. Having played every type of game conceivable since the 1960's I realized that in the end all methods work as well as any other from IGOUGO to completely random.
Completely random is always an easy way to simplify things! Thanks, Will!
Always a good day seeing Bob’s upload notification
Thanks! Every Wednesday :D
We started using "the old ways" again: d6 for the party, d6 for the monsters, highest goes first, ties are simultaneous, clockwise from the DM. After a few play sessions we wondered why we ever stopped using this method. It's fast and simple. Everyone knows when their turn is coming up and there's no confusion. Plus, those simultaneous rounds add a bit of flavor and excitement. We roll initiative every round, so there's always a chance the party (or the monsters!) get to go twice in a row, which really makes combat go fast.
This is why I like to play with Roll20. I can just bulk roll all tokens and the turn tracker in Roll20 sorts them automatically. I use some API/plugins to achieve this, but the time from initiative rolls to battle start is like 2 seconds.
VTTs can certainly fix a number of initiative issues!
Yes, in Fantasy Grounds all initiatives are rolled with a mouse click. This solves the issue. On person I use two distinct methods, for 4 or more players, one generic roll at the begining of the combat for the whole group and then, on the player's turn, they choose who goes first. This encourages collaboration. On 3 players or less, I have been using classical method.
I played for awhile with Dungeon Craft's method and wound up trimming it a bit into a more streamlined method:
1) immediate reactions; first player who opens the door and sees the monster can declare what they are doing, or how they are reacting to that.
2) short group planning phase where they agree on the general plan of action.
3) players proceed in an order they agree on based on what works best: so if the wizard wants to cast sleep on the goblins he can go first and the others will deal with the aftermath, if they want to bar the door then the Barbarian goes first slamming the door shut and holding it closed while the fighter grabs and places the bar, or if they want to negotiate the bard starts off the party with some discuss or maybe the calm emotions spell.
The trick being the players all get a chance to speak up first before anything big happens and can sort out how best to do that. None of this the barbarian rolled highest initiative and decided to just start killing everything in sight while the rest of the party was just their to talk or the wizard fire-balling the room after half the party had already rushed in.
This also lets you transition scenes between combat, social, and skill encounters seamlessly, and lets the party try out different and unusual approaches to the problem.
I'm a big fan of monsters in the middle, but I think early bird might mess with balance too much. I can see why it improves the transition into combat, but what about having that first turn be the start of the first round, and then go around the group clockwise from there? No need to roll initiative and start with a surprise turn.
The downside is that having a good initiative modifier becomes less important. It can still be used sometimes to determine who goes first when the narrative doesn't determine it, but it's still a nerf to some features and feats. This can be solved by letting players readjust their characters if they feel they're being nerfed.
Thanks! Yeah for 4-6 players, they still get to roll, so speedy characters get their bonus. For small or big groups, it just comes down to the other players being reasonable about letting that fast PC go first or sit in the right spot to go first
I like rolling init every round. It increases the tension in situations where "will the monster go first and get away/kill the hostage/raise the alarm/finish off one of the PCs" It adds realism in that carefully coordinated actions have a cost (delay your action and lose your reaction), or "darn it I was going to cast fireball but the barbarian charged into the area. Some times lets a character attack twice in succession (went last last round but first this round).
As for speed rolling and adding takes next to no time and I just count it down "Above 20, 20, 19, 18, 17...) and the players sit in anticipation "will I be next?" and tend to shout out excitedly when their number comes up. The extra 5 to 20 seconds also lets slower players plan their move so they are not scratching their heads slowing everybody else down when their turn comes.
Then there's the tie! Roll off against the monster to see which of you gets to strike first. So many clinch moments have happened in the roll-off.
The problem I see with this is that not all monsters and characters are created equal. The initiative stat is an extremely powerful stat, more so than people think. Increase the probability of starting a combat by only five percent can increase the probability of winning the fight by up to 40%! Especially for fights that are about equal. It is that powerful! Having a static initiative can disproportionately nerf/buff characters. For balance and strategy sake, no matter the initiative method, it must be random. Of course, if you value combat speed and story immersion, by all means, put it static. But be aware that your are removing some of the unpredictableness of the game, which is a core mechanic.
I've never heard those stats of relating initiative to probability of winning! That's a great point and I love how you phrased it in a constructive way. Thanks for commenting! :)
@@BobWorldBuilder The statistics come from a fight simulator I developed for 3.5E where I wanted to test class and ability balancing. In some very contrived situations ( like two level 1 fighters with longswords) where both sides are almost identical, I noticed the main factor for winning was the initiative (in hindsight, it's kinda obvious) more so than increasing damage, increasing attack bonus, or increasing AC. Which made me realize the importance of being the first to hit. Even in reality, i.e. LARPing, the first one to hit is often the one who will win.
I've been using a method taken from shadow of the demon Lord which speeds stuff up and allows for more setting each other up.
Essentially you can take a fast or slow action. Fast is an action or movement, slow an action and movement.
Just ask who's taking a fast action then do:
Fast players
Fast monsters
Slow players
Slow monsters
The order they go is up to them
Always glad to see a Bob World builder notification.
Thanks for using the notifications! :)
I've been in a DnD group for about a year and a half now, and half way through our campaign, we started using group initiative. The person that attacks first or is attacked first rolls initiative, and that determines the initiative for the whole group, who all go at once. The monsters also move in a group. This way, the players don't have to wait a long time to get to their turn. It's worked well, and has encouraged teamwork during combat.
First. Guess I rolled a Nat 20 and that alert feat was worth the investment.
Haha yes that’s a high initiative roll!!
I love the way you have addressed the biggest problems with RAW Initiative. Your method is really a great way to smooth out and simplify initiative. As a DM, you can always adjust your customize your BBEG, Lair actions, and legendary creatures to have them act on count 20.
Can’t wait to use this at my table!
You have a pretty great voice, just wanted to start with that.
My problem with your option for initiative here is when players spec into getting a higher initiative bonus. I once had a DM had us take turns around the table, but I had heavily invested into a speedster character who had an absurd bonus, and it was such a sour moment.
You may have asked that DM to be at the right place around the table, so you played (among the) first. Seems logical if you invested in a speedster.
Thanks! Yeah for 4-6 players you'd still be rolling and the speedster bonus applies. For small or big groups, if your fellow players are reasonable, they should let such a character act first or have you sit in the right spot for it
I used to (and still) play a lot Call of Cthulhu or Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. In both games, the initiative is fixed and depends on a stat of the character. What I always did is to asked the players to sit around the table in the order of their initiative. Pretty efficient.
@@Poulpy37Cthulhu In the vanilla Warhammer rules the initiative is not fixed, it's 1d10 + Agility. Since Agility is a percentile value that hovers around 30 for humans, it's the main factor, but there's still quite a bit of variance. However, to speed up combat, I decided to forego the roll and just go in the order of Agility. Makes bookkeeping a lot easier.
@@krinkrin5982 I suppose you're talking about the 2nd edition. In 1st and 4th, there's no roll (except in some optional rules).
I've tried team initiative; each team rolls a plain d20, higher roll goes first, then they just choose what order they go in
its fast and fun, but the players get a huge advantage to their survivability because when someone goes down, they never have to make a death save before someone casts healing word
Ahh that's a great point about group initiative. Never thought of that consequence!
Meh. I like the call to roll for initiative. It builds excitement, personally, for the combat to come.
Yeah for normal size groups (4-6), I still recommend that! You could still have small groups do it without it taking much time, but for big groups, I'd rather minimize that pause before combat
A very simple trick I've found that works amazingly well is the "Fire Emblem" strategy of Hero Turn and Enemy Turn. First turn goes to whoever acts first, so if the party gets the drop on the baddies the party goes first but if the baddies catch the party they go first. After that the party can act in whatever order they want, which allows more dynamic strategy and tag-team tricks. Once everyone has acted things switch over so the baddies get their go. This massively speeds things up, greatly reduces the amount of note taking, and keeps players involved during the entire combat.
It's great advice but what do I give my players that made an effort to have a high initiative bonus?
Yea thats the problem I have with these systems. One of my players combines the chronurgy wizard (add int+Dex to initiative) with gift of alacrity (+d8 to initiative) altert feat (+5) and a dagger of warding to go first and control the battlefield. Then, one day, they would sit at the wrong side of the table and go last, when the -2 Dex fighter goes first and the -3 dex monster also goes before the wizard.
@@leonpetrich5864 I mean, there is a rather simple fix to this. Let him go first if he reaaally cares that much and has made an effort to build the character to have high Initiative.
1-3 players: the other 2 players should be reasonable and let the speedy character go first!
4-6: they roll, so no problem.
7+: hopefully the DM is reasonable and lets the speedy player sit in the right spot to go first!
I have an ideo I want to try. Have the players roll initiative after combat and use those rolls for the next combat. That way you dont have to stop the game every time combat starts and it'll slow things down a bit after the high of combat.
I don't really agree with any of this. I find initiative is too core to the rules, and messing with it can de-rail combat quickly. I find the best way to do initiative is to pre-roll monsters that I know they will be coming up against, or maybe just pre-roll a load of d20s without DEX modifiers to change on the fly, and also get the players to roll initiative after a combat for the next combat, so there is very little difficulty in jumping into combat.
Ahh yes, pre-rolling was my first adjustment to initiative, but eventually I realized grouping enemies was nice for me. Rather than randomly roll every time, I just chose 11 and 1 as a way to keep it pre-determined and split them up
@@BobWorldBuilder - I posted this comment on another site, but I'm moving it here because you really do need to see this:
Just no. To all of this.
This heavily encourages players to jump on top of Cinematic narrative that the DM is trying to create, or more to the point it punishes players who are willing to wait for a DM to finish, and practically guarantees that SOMEONE is going to jump the gun the moment they hear something that could be construed as a threat.
"You see a giant-"
"I attack it!"
"-crystal relic, the source of your quest, glowing with power, which you hit with your greatclub and shatter into pieces..."
This also vastly overpower classes that specifically RELY on initiative, and gimp class/subclass that get features specifically giving bonuses to their initiative. If I'm an assassin, of course I'll choose to go first in initiative, EVERY. TIME.
The whole point of rolling is that THE OPTIMAL RESULT DOESN'T ALWAYS HAPPEN. Sometimes you have a great plan but the monster goes before the lynchpin and throws everything into chaos. Sometimes everything is crap, but the monster rolls low and everyone gets to pile onto it before it can do its thing. THAT IS THE POINT OF D&D.
And seriously, VTT? 99% of online D&D platforms (Fantasy Grounds, Roll20, Foundry, DnDBeyond) roll initiative with a single click and organize the entire turn order for you, what time are you even saving then?
I started off just wanting to poke at some of the holes, but the further I thought about this, the more insulting it became that this aspect is just treated as a roadblock, when it is one of the most crucial aspects of the "you can TRY" philosophy.
@@GreyAcumen Absolutely this. I don't think Bob's method works for me. I've been playing both online and offline for multiple years and the biggest factor is not tracking or rolling it is people needing time to find their first action. This is even more apparent in online gaming.
Also don't group monsters, especially bigger monsters. If a monster is closer in initiaitve order it gives insentive to be prioritised iin attacks.
Multiple (stronger) monsters attacking at once, coordinated will take that advantage from the players.
And as @Grey Acumen said, chaos is part of the narrative. Everyone is excited about the chances of combat. But playnning is only fun when you mix a little bit of chaos. Are you sticking to the plan or do you develop a new one? These interactions become boring. And you can always reorganize initiative by dropping if you really want to give up your initiative advantage for iit.
This whole video is a "fix" for something that is not broken but an essential part of gameplay.
When I design encounters I always pre roll
Monster initiative before the game even starts. I have custom sheets made up though with a 30-1 set of slots though it’s easy for me. Probably because I am ocd.
Great video! I use a variant of what you describe - group initiative. I have one player roll against the monsters. Either players go first, or monsters do. When the players go, they go around the table, but I also rotate who rolls each round, so the order always rotates. A round after you go first among the players, you will then move to the back of the queue, etc. it is fast, fair, and speeds up combat a lot.
Going around the table is what I have subscribed to when playing home games for years, it just makes sense.
Couldn't agree more!
But then there are certain abilities that become useless. My barbarian gets advantage on initiative rolls, but this class ability would essentially not exist with going around the table.
This reminds me of the Black Hack’s initiative system, (which is a D20 roll under with the same attributes as DnD).
You roll a D20 and if it’s under your DEX you go before the monsters, but if it’s over your DEX you go after.
Nice! Roll under systems are great
These ideas are novel. I personally dislike individual initiative because it makes working together feel awkward and needlessly contrived, so I do either group initiative or no initiative. In the cases it is paramount that someone does manage to go first I can always call for a roll at that particular moment.
Thank you! Yes, I'd like to experiment more with combo attacks. That was a homebrew adjustment we used in my first campaign before we learned he rules and it was tons of fun!
Glad to see I'm doing something right! For small encounters, I do like having the PC who is initiating combat go first, and go around the table in one direction. Then the next small encounter goes in the opposite direction.
For big encounters with multiple enemies, I have everyone roll initiative.
I'm a simple man, I see a video from the Bob Ross of DnD and I click it
Haha thank you! :)
I have a way I've been using for years. I write all the PC names as well as monsters on cards, shuffle them up each round, and draw them. I prefer this to players knowing when their turn is coming up, because if a player knows their turn isn't coming up for a while they can easily zone out and miss stuff. When I'm drawing a card, every player is staring at the deck in suspense hoping it's their or at least their ally's turn. Secondly, players have 10 seconds to declare an action from when their card is drawn; otherwise their card goes to the bottom of the initiative deck and they go last. If players need to ask a question or whatever, they can do that, but the clock is still ticking whenever I'm not talking to answer their question. Putting a little time pressure on the players keeps things moving quickly and with energy. Of course when a monster is drawn, I also declare what it's up to immediately, usually less than 5 seconds. This often means monsters make sub optimal choices. Good. Unless it's a genius monster I want it to make suboptimal choices in the heat of the moment. The nice thing with an initiative deck is that it takes next to no time to shuffle, compared to everyone rolling die and then comparing scores verbally and then writing or moving tokens around or whatever to track it. You shuffle the deck for 5 seconds, and it tracks itself. The only bad thing is that it removes the utility of initiative bonuses. I generally use initiative bonuses to help players get the first action at the beginning of a battle, but then it's random from there. This can be a nerf to some character builds that rely on strong initiative so you might want to consider giving such a character concept some kind of compensation buff, but in general, going first on the first round of combat is the most important use of such an ability so I give character concepts whose thing is high initiative the first action more preferentially than random chance.
I want to like the Early Bird idea, but I'm concerned this would regress into a verbal "Duck-Duck-Goose" type scenario. How do you account for the fact that you as the DM know where every monster is, and thus you are always already primed to "act first", unless in the interest of fairness you impose some arbitrary post-encounter-explanation delay on yourself to not be able to "react as monster" to your own description? ----OR--- once players understand this process, wouldn't they just always naturally and obnoxiously "SHOTGUN!" you the second you get to what they think is the end of your description, thus preventing you from ever Early Birding them?
to use your troll example, why wouldn't you, except to save face as DM, just say: You lock eyes with a troll who's raising a deer leg to its mouth--AND IN ANGER IT THROWS THE LEG AT YOU (attack).
What's fair for the players/your Troll vis-a-vis reaction time?
If the DM is competitive, that would be a problem! If the DM wants players to succeed and roleplays monsters based on how they should act in the given scenario, you're all good
@@BobWorldBuilder maybe you can address this in your follow up video? Your response doesn’t feel like much of a solution...it sounds more like Early Bird is simply: always let players get a free attack lest you as DM come off as “competitive”. Regardless, good work and good luck fighting the horde of haters :)
With the VTT I'm using, I can usually get the turn order setup with all the monsters rolling initiative before all my players finish rolling themselves, so it rarely takes more than 10-20 seconds to get it rolling. (usually closer to 5).
I should probably say, I don't do individual initiative for each monster, each monster "group" get 1 roll.
And I spend a decent amount of time preparing out of session.
Been playing D&D and RPGs since the 80s, all sorts of group sizes (3 - 9) all sorts of combat scenarios, all sorts of mob mixes. TBH rolling initiative and keeping track with just paper and pencil was never a time consuming thing and always added to the combat. Folks might be overthinking thinking this a bit...
"time consuming" is relative. If standard initiative works for you, roll on, my friend!
@@BobWorldBuilder Fair enough my friend. Whatever works best for your table. I do appreciate the perspective. Keep putting out your great content!!! Cheers
This is EXACTLY what I was thinking about and YT put the solution in front of me. I'm trying this this week in my campaign. Great stuff.
10 points to the algorithm :D
(4:04) - Simpler 'Round Table' Initiative : For initiative, everyone rolls d20. Highest one goes first and that player chooses left or right. that is the direction around the table you proceed for who goes next. When you get to the DM, the monsters go. This method allows for random order (who goes first, when the monsters go, etc). In case of ties, choose either the characters Init bonus/Dex bonus/Dex score to see who is first (or let the players decide).
Simple. 1 roll to determine who is first and then a direction around the table. Works for ANY size table.
Note the monsters (DM) never goes first (unless you include the DM in the initiative roll).
I tend to do something similar: the monsters will always take their turn at their initiative bonus plus 10. I’m intrigued by the idea of minions going last. I may adapt that to my method.
I like the idea of all the PCs just standing there dumbfounded while the monsters they thought they got the jump on all turned around and started chewing on the tank's face before anyone could so much as lift a finger
Simplest method is the first one I learned, from the Holmes bluebook: The players go in DEX order, and the GM rolls the monster's DEX at the start. You can seat the players in DEX order so that it goes around the table in familiar fashion, with the GM jumping in at a different spot each time.
my initiative goes like this. players all roll a D20, one at a time.
I allow the bad guys to act first if I feel the players are taken by surprise and vice versa.
I jot down their results in order, on a sheet with rows labeled 1 through 20, with a new column for every round of combat.
as each player acts, I write down a short note about what their action was. "attack missed" fireball 36 damage" "cure minor wounds +8hp " ect.
My bad guys take their turns all at once. This not only speeds things up, but also adds a little bit of tension.
As each player acts, I announce who goes next by referencing my combat sheet.
Very nice, that's kind of a blend of some ideas in this video!
I actually roll monster initiatives before the session as part of my prep. Then, when my players roll initiative, I ask them for their initiative in whatever order I have their tokens set up on Roll20 (the initiative tracker thing). My players tend to know what they're doing in combat, and if they take too long on their turn I usually give them a nudge verbally. It runs smooth enough I think.
For my Dugeon of the Mad Mage campaign, i use a combination of early bird+Group initiative+monster in the middle. I have anywhere from 4-7 players at a time, so i just break them into squads at 3-4 max and min 2-2. The first squad to act has advantage on initiative and they both roll to see which squad goes first. During a squads turn, they can act in whichever order they want in however they want. Even between actions and movement. I then have the enemies be "monsters in the middle" with initiatives 15-7-1 or 20-10 and epic bosses can have 2 turns per round (if i dont have minions)
I often use marching order to determine initiative, or if the party is camping and beset upon in the night, those that are awake roll a perception check (passive perception for sleeping characters) and while they role play among themselves, I organise battle order before slapping the monster up in their grill.
I've been doing the "set in stone" turn order for the monsters for a good while. It just makes things a lot easier to manage without a random element making my boss monsters destroy the team right out the gate. It also allows me to fudge initiative for when the turn order looks to be going against the players. Giving the boss a 1 or 20 in the order also makes it super easy to keep track of how many times legendary actions were used in a round.
Nice! Yeah I've been enjoying its simplicity
I use standard initiative and just write it down on the whiteboard for d&d and takes like 20 seconds so no biggy for us. Online is super easy. Roll a dice linked to initiative and it tracks it immediately. One button click for me for the monsters and they are all tracked. Then I click a button and it goes through initiative
My other game (Conan 2d20) I play does something closer to what you recommend which is all heroes go first follow by monsters. But there is a special resource called doom which the GM can expend to allow a monster to interrupt the flow and go whenever they want. I won't go into specifics of doom because it's too complicated but it's really fun and heightens the suspense when there is a big pool of it (it can be used for many other things)
Whoa the "doom" idea is interesting!
I like it. I subbed.
I play a loose game with newb kids and non-gamer parents. So I do the boardgame approach, passing turns to the left, passing a giant red d20 like that one you have in the background to signify who's turn it is. Pass the die to the left! Hurry I want to light him on fire! Players can trade turns if they want, but they rarely do.
Sometimes an enemy surprises them from the rear, and then I do reverse turn order. Lol.
Players always go first unless they get ambushed. Like if they go through a door without checking first, the dudes inside will go first. Or if they check, but don't look up to see the giant spider on the ceiling, spider goes first.
It's a very simple beer and pretzels style way to play.
That sounds awesome! Thanks for subscribing :)
When I run for players that are new I use a timer. Everyone at the table gets 1 minute to declare intent for the turn and start rolling. If rolls or calculations take longer than a minute they tell me when they have a moment to speak. If they don’t declare an action, example: they move but can’t decide on a spell, their turn ends with whatever they have done or are slightly distracted for the turn(no negative consequence besides not doing anything). I usually go around the table for these games.
If I have an experienced table I have them roll initiative during an initial planning phase where they can hash out their tactics for the fight, out of game. The initiative is basically a check vs fastest monster to see which group goes first, players decide their own order. Experienced tables are usually ran in a more tactical manner, combat wise, monsters are assumed to be intelligent enough(there are always exceptions for notoriously dumb enemies) to determine who is the biggest threat or will react accordingly to players actions.
I've started a recent campaign experimenting with initiative. I do a group/no roll hybrid. I let my players choose their initiative order (basically them planning battle strategies before going out into danger), then, when they fight a group of enemies, I roll a d20. On evens, players go first, on odds, enemy group goes first. It may not be the most realistic, but it has certainly worked so far. No more forgetting whose turn it is in the middle of the initiative.
One cool system a guy was using in Pathfinder Society was a magnetic white board about tablet sized, and little cut up pieces of magnet white board we could write our characters' names on, and then he used a small colorful magnet to denote whose turn it was along the side next to the name magnets. He'd just slide it down every time a turn concludes and return it to the top at the beginning of the next full turn.
So how i like to do it with my group of 5 is i have a Excel sheet which has three columns. Column 1 - name, Column 2 - deatils (AC, conditions, etc), Column 3 intiative. Then I write the monsters in before the session with the players names at the bottom, when they roll intiative i fill in their boxs highlight the whole table and hit sort to cut a lot of time out. I like it because it maintains the abilty for monsters to spread out across intiative which works well for how our group likes to run combat
I do the same thing!! Except now instead of pre-rolling monsters, they go go at 11 :P saves me a little bit of prep time haha
Hi Bob! I was stumbling into old videos when I came upon this and wanted to respond. I have been using the "11-1" system for quite some time now with one twist...Legendary lair actions go first, boss monsters go on 20, and the normal monsters and minions go on 11 and 1 as you have it here. I agree with your comments that telling the players when monsters go really ratchets up the tension. The group pretty much looks at those with the highest modifiers (I allow main stat used as initiative instead of just DEX) and sees how they roll before developing a strategy. Knowing that the monsters go before or after you makes the group revise their tactics accordingly. Thanks for introducing me to this!
In my experience when all the monsters go at the same time, then a player gets ganged up on without the players having an opportunity to do anything about it, or the monsters all die before they can do anything.
This can happen with the initiative roles but it breaks up how often it happens
There is a method in Giffyglyph's book, Darker Dungeons, that I find helps keep combat faster paced and keeps it from getting as stale as always having the same turn order(going around the same circle on the table) called Active Initiative. Wherein, "there is no pre-determined order of initiative. Instead, once a person has finished their turn, they get to choose who goes next-another player, group of monsters, or environmental hazard."
But a player would never choose a monster to go after them, except maybe a barbarian trying to be funny, but Giffyglyph thought of this and added, "Interrupting: Anyone who took damage during your turn can steal the initiative from you at the end of your turn (see Interrupting), so be careful who you attack."
Obviously, you only get one turn per round, and the last person chooses the first person for the next round.
I dunno, the little I experimented with it, it has really sped up combat in terms of turn order. Cannot fix how long players take to decide on their actions for the turn though...