Oh, yes, these Mravinski-recordings are breathtaking. I have most of them on Melodyia, and these discs and CDs are treasures! The "Ruslan" is incredible. And the 3rd-act-prelude is the best "Lohengrin" ever. I need just these few minutes from the whole opera, and I need them in this performance. Besides: the Ride of the Valkyries is unparalleled, too. Just listen at the entry of the trombones. Absolutely gorgeous!
Thanks for this David - it made me get my score out and check out this directions !! Hope you will include the Schostakovitch Festive Overture in this series, a personal favourite ....
Wow, that Mravinsky is amazing. The direct comparison with Ancerl here is instructive. At the risk of being controversial, I think I prefer the Ancerl, overall, as I find the tempo slightly too fast to fully enjoy in the Mravinsky. While the clarity remains in the music, there seems almost no time to enjoy everything the music has to offer before Mravinsky whisks us on. Thanks for the video David.
Dear Paul: I agree with you completely. Mravinsky's version is driven, even grotesque to my ears, whereas Ancerl's remains within boundaries of musicality and good taste.
I will hunt down that Mravinsky box, Dave! I have an imported CD of Svetlanov doing it with the NHK Symphony Orchestra Tokyo coupled with Rach2 and it is wonderful. Speedy, articulate and lyrical in the second subject with the repeats played much quieter, a lovely little touch.
I didn't know the Mravinsky - I'll seek it out. I've alwats though the Ančerl the best of those I knew - Solti with LSO also good just that bit more exciting than his earlier Berlin PO recording - the only one I know with Solti and BPO, now on Eloquence.
I just found and ordered a single Erato CD (Erato 2292-45757-2) that includes Mravinsky/Leningrad performances of the Glinka and works by Glazunov, Tchaikovsky, and Mussorgsky. I don't know if this is the same performance as in the Scribendum set,but the price was right ($8 including shipping; at last look the Scribendum set was around $65 on Amazon)
My local classical station plays this piece ad nauseum. Hasn't destroyed it for me -- not yet. Check out Glinka's Spanish Overtures. Rimsky-Korsakov's Capriccio Espagnol took lotsa notes!
All performances on the Ancerl are first rate. However, like many Supraphon, the strings are bright and sizzly. Still could enjoy the readings, though. Wha at great conductor!
R&S is one of the very few Russian works that used a contrabassoon; unfortunately for us contra players it didn't catch on and deprived us from getting to participate in Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov and so much other great music. As for the R&S overture, I think Solti with the LSO is still the most electrifying.
Slightly random idea David - would really like to know your choice of Scores when your listening along to all the amazing music on your channel! Do you have preferences?
absolutely! It's a shame that even in Russia Glinka is best known for his first opus - 'Life for the Tzar' [Ivan Susanin], which is derivative and boring. 'Ruslan' is so much better.
More evidence for vibrato ... The tremolando on Baroque organs. Even organs specified by JS Bach ... There is a difference between the ultra-sweet modern vibrato on modern strings and the expressive type used variably depending on expressive circumstances as you show here in your splendid film on one of my favourite Overtures! Best wishes from George
Hmm. I wonder what the difference is? Vibrato is always sweet, and it has always been used variably. I personally think there was much more of the "ultra-sweet" variety used in early times, but in any case I fail to understand how anyone can make a comparison when one of the two things being compared is available for the purpose and the other is not. It's all mere speculation, useless in my view given the continuities in the timbral ideals of musical aesthetics over such relatively brief period. .
@@DavesClassicalGuide Dear David, I am agreeing with you! I know you condemn Elgar's own recording of his Second Symphony on balance and timbre. I can understand that, but the recording does reveal a large range of vibrato styles, even in the "evil" Scherzo! From the restrained to the even more sweet than seems fashionable these days. For example much sweeter than Boult [BBC SO] in 1944, which I find feels driven and cold compared to Elgar's actually consistently faster but somehow more flowing 1927 recording. My favourite was for many years the Naxos Edward Downes BBC PO recording, not least because I heard it twice, live, in Worcester Cathedral and then the at the RAH [BBC Prom] shortly before the Naxos recording was issued. ... Going to the other end of the spectrum - to the Baroque - It seem inconceivable to me that JS Bach, or Handel would have been happy with the flat straight quality of vibrato-less playing that all too often has crept in under the guise of HIP. On the other hand I do prefer the light and varied vibrato of Adolf Busch in the say the Second Violin Partita to the ever present and consistent vibrato of Heifetz. I know that is only an opinion, certainly not a right or wrong in either case, and justifies nothing. Among the HIP violinists I rather like Racheal Podger in Bach's solo violin music! As for Ruslan, what a lovely gem to discuss. I also like Borodin's Second Symphony, and nobody talks about that anymore! Best wishes and keep safe from George
@@georgejohnson1498 Thank you! I know you are agreeing, and I was not disagreeing, really. I just want to caution everyone about what we claim earlier performers did absent clear evidence. In my honest opinion I do not believe you can hear the specific use of vibrato in those early Elgar recordings, especially as distinct to other technical issues with the recording process. All we can say is that the string timbre resembles modern norms. The rest is pure imagination, whether you agree with my general position or not. Orchestral vibrato is a touchy subject--in my view, it's either there or it is not, and that is sometimes audible as such, and sometimes not, but fine shades? No. What you hear is "timbre" in aggregate, warm or cold, thin or full. You can hear variations in timbre, but the degree to which those may be attributed solely to vibrato is simply impossible to say in most cases.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Dear David, Once again I want to emphasise that I am discussing and not arguing, as I enjoy your views, even if sometimes your choices of favourite performance differ from mine! I am amazed how often you do like what I also like, so I chuckle when you don't, and I understand it. Now specifically to the LSO of 1927 in the HMV composer conducted performance of Elgar's Second. I discovered that recording when I was ten years old. It was in a big brown card HMV album and I think on six double sided discs. That is fifty years ago now. I was fascinated by it, because the school also had Boult's Pye [Nixa] LP from the early 1950s, and I much preferred the 78 set despite the surface noise and the rest. In 1973 I got the LP transfer of the 78s on RLS 708, and was delighted to have only one side change! But also I discovered that the first side of the disc containing the Scherzo had been re-recorded a few weeks later as the original take had a technical problem that required a new side to be released at the first chance, and before the new take was made, the recording team decided to make a "rehearsal" recording of Elgar getting his players to "really dig in!" This is fascinating as it is an example of the very point you have made about conductors asking for more or less vibrato though Elgar's calls it warmth and sonority. The second theme arrives at cue 93 [marked, sonoramente] after six descending semi-quavers in the bass, which he discussed having stopped the band. He then asked the band at 93 to play sonorously Just a short while he stops again observing that the playing was not very warm. "Now 93: For Goodness' sake sonorously, but not fast!" Then they really dug in with Elgar singing exactly how he wanted it over the band - they really dig out a big vibrato tone, .and then play several more minutes without incident. ________ Now the style of vibrato in London in the 1920s was quite different to the modern wide vibrato that came in in the 1930s and was more or less universal by the 1950s. It was a finger vibrato rather than one generated at the wrist, and the style also involved copious use of portamento or sliding for position changes. To modern ears it sound old fashioned, but it is there, and I rather like it! It is certainly of its and the music's period! Real HIP because it was the style. One horror for modern ears is the old oboe style, which before Eugene Goosens [first oboe of LPO in the 1930s] was played "literal" and entirely without vibrato in most cases. Hence the old musician view that the oboe is "the ill-wind blows no good!" Elgar was a great admirer of Goosens, and delighted to have the young player as first oboe in some of his very last recording from 1933 ... If you are in any way made curious about this I believe Warner still have this print in a budget nine CD set. Sorry to be so passionate about this symphony, which I have very mixed feelings about in reality, but it is woven into my childhood, and I have known it by heart for half a century. Anything I discover these days I shall not know for as long! Best wishes from George
@@georgejohnson1498 I know you aren't arguing, and I appreciate the detailed and fascinating information. Unfortunately, it doesn't prove anything beyond what I have already said. Yes, the anecdotal evidence helps, and of course I agree that what Elgar is asking for is Vibrato. There are many similar such examples when the term actually is used, but all of this business between finger vibrato and wrist vibrato, etc, is totally unhelpful in terms of our ability to define a specific contribution to orchestral sonority which is, after all, the average of what everyone in a section is doing. Sure, they may use more vibrato in a passage, but they can also bow and phrase differently, and that is just as important. Separating out the various components of a sound in a 1927 recording, with its dynamic compression and technical limitations is, to me, a pointless exercise. What matters is that the vibrato is there, and there is plenty of evidence for it without having to rely, happily, on the all-to-fallible technology or the even more fallible impressions of our own ears. Remember, Norrington does not "hear" vibrato at all. He says the 1938 Walter Mahler Ninth is the last major recording to have none, whereas not only do I hear it plainly, Walter himself says that Vienna Phil used in consistently from the first time he hears them in the 1897 through the 1960s (when he was asked about it). In these instances, hearing is NOT necessarily believing.
Mravinsky is white hot. Enough to strip the paint off your walls. Ought to be WARNING on the sleeve, [this music could seriously damage your head space]
The Mravinsky sounds like it is being played at the wrong speed! I much prefer Ancerl who sounds so much more musical. You can really appreciate the work with him. I find I just miss too much hearing Mravinsky at the speed of light!
I think that particular Mravinsky performance was also available on Urania, but then again, most things are available on Urania, so it's hard to say. Two other performances that I think might fall "Under the Radar" in ClassicsToday speak, are Solti (LSO) on his fabulous Romantic Russia album and Silvestri (EMI). The Solti was last available in Decca's "The Decca Sound" coupled with Suppe (OK, then), and before that, on a Decca Legends disc reviewed at CT. I still think the best part of that disc, by the way, is Solti's French Tchaikovsky #2 in mono. Go figure. That Tchaikovsky can be found on Eloquence, but the coupled Glinka is his long forgotten Berlin Philharmonic remake. As for the Ancerl, it's probably best found right now as part of the "Gold Edition" line, where it's now part of a really well-filled overtures collection.
The Solti was my introduction to the piece on my parents' "Double Decca" of "Famous Overtures". Ever since, anybody who goes slower is a little bit of a letdown!
@@DavesClassicalGuideThis overture is in a 4cd s Scribendum box and is not cheap, because of speculation. I will look for it in a cheaper edition. Thank you
@@brianrein I kind of wish they'd put out a "Double Decca" box. Sure, seasoned collectors would own most of it, and naturally, it wouldn't all be equally fabulous, but off the top of my head, you'd get: - Solti's LSO Mahler. Elgar and two discs (obviously) of Strauss Tone Poems from Chicago/Vienna/Bavaria - Mehta's Schmidt 4th - Both Solti and Bonyage conducting great overtures - Boskovsky's Mozart Serenades - Dohnanyi's late Dvorak and complete Mendelssohn Symphonies - Gardiner's earliest recording of the Monteverdi Vespers - Burgos' Falla - Reiner's Verdi Requiem - Britten's late Mozart Symphonies and Schiff's late concertos with Vegh. - Dorati's Paris and London Symphonies To say nothing of more recent Decca Doubles. What a fun way to start building a collection!
I'm a compulsive collector of this overture. Awesome, thank you for the great video on this.
WOW The Mravinsky Lenningrad as available was always a favorite, but the one you just played is a real knockout!
Oh, yes, these Mravinski-recordings are breathtaking. I have most of them on Melodyia, and these discs and CDs are treasures! The "Ruslan" is incredible. And the 3rd-act-prelude is the best "Lohengrin" ever. I need just these few minutes from the whole opera, and I need them in this performance. Besides: the Ride of the Valkyries is unparalleled, too. Just listen at the entry of the trombones. Absolutely gorgeous!
Thanks Dave - love this! I think another one you could do is the Overture to La Forza del Destino, or perhaps Verdi overture discs in general :)
Glad I finally found your review of this awesome overture. Thanks for the great video.
My pleasure!
Marvinsky proves that just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD do it.
Ah, don't be a spoil sport!
Thanks for this David - it made me get my score out and check out this directions !! Hope you will include the Schostakovitch Festive Overture in this series, a personal favourite ....
Gergiev also gets a break-neck speed out of the Marinsky Orchestra, a live recording in 2008 is done and dusted in 4m 43 seconds.
Wow, that Mravinsky is amazing. The direct comparison with Ancerl here is instructive. At the risk of being controversial, I think I prefer the Ancerl, overall, as I find the tempo slightly too fast to fully enjoy in the Mravinsky. While the clarity remains in the music, there seems almost no time to enjoy everything the music has to offer before Mravinsky whisks us on. Thanks for the video David.
I understand your preference completely. That's why I wanted to offer the contrast between the two.
I agree completely. The Mravinsky sounds to me simply fest. The Ancerl is really articulated!
Dear Paul: I agree with you completely. Mravinsky's version is driven, even grotesque to my ears, whereas Ancerl's remains within boundaries of musicality and good taste.
oh...i love this piece. Thanks for choosing it.
I will hunt down that Mravinsky box, Dave!
I have an imported CD of Svetlanov doing it with the NHK Symphony Orchestra Tokyo coupled with Rach2 and it is wonderful. Speedy, articulate and lyrical in the second subject with the repeats played much quieter, a lovely little touch.
I didn't know the Mravinsky - I'll seek it out. I've alwats though the Ančerl the best of those I knew - Solti with LSO also good just that bit more exciting than his earlier Berlin PO recording - the only one I know with Solti and BPO, now on Eloquence.
Super stuff! Thank you. The Leningrad brass and cymbals were almost loud enough in the Wagner LOL
I just found and ordered a single Erato CD (Erato 2292-45757-2) that includes Mravinsky/Leningrad performances of the Glinka and works by Glazunov, Tchaikovsky, and Mussorgsky. I don't know if this is the same performance as in the Scribendum set,but the price was right ($8 including shipping; at last look the Scribendum set was around $65 on Amazon)
Fritz Reiner's Ruslan and Ludmila Overture was personally my favorite rendition.
My local classical station plays this piece ad nauseum. Hasn't destroyed it for me -- not yet. Check out Glinka's Spanish Overtures. Rimsky-Korsakov's Capriccio Espagnol took lotsa notes!
All performances on the Ancerl are first rate. However, like many Supraphon, the strings are bright and sizzly. Still could enjoy the readings, though. Wha at great conductor!
And the 1928 recording by the LSO under the Russian-born English conductor Albert Coates is also worth a listen - it comes in at just under 4 mins!
That Albert Coates stuff is pretty crazy. I have those.
R&S is one of the very few Russian works that used a contrabassoon; unfortunately for us contra players it didn't catch on and deprived us from getting to participate in Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov and so much other great music. As for the R&S overture, I think Solti with the LSO is still the most electrifying.
Slightly random idea David - would really like to know your choice of Scores when your listening along to all the amazing music on your channel! Do you have preferences?
No, not really, as long as I can see what's there!
And the complete opera is not bad at all.
Especially the old Bolshoi recordings from ‘38 and ‘52 with Mark Reizen and Ivan Petrov as Ruslan, respectively.
absolutely! It's a shame that even in Russia Glinka is best known for his first opus - 'Life for the Tzar' [Ivan Susanin], which is derivative and boring. 'Ruslan' is so much better.
Shame they didn't have enough room for Mravinsky's recording of the "Wedding Galop" that follows the Act 3 Prelude.
More evidence for vibrato ... The tremolando on Baroque organs. Even organs specified by JS Bach ...
There is a difference between the ultra-sweet modern vibrato on modern strings and the expressive type used variably depending on expressive circumstances as you show here in your splendid film on one of my favourite Overtures!
Best wishes from George
Hmm. I wonder what the difference is? Vibrato is always sweet, and it has always been used variably. I personally think there was much more of the "ultra-sweet" variety used in early times, but in any case I fail to understand how anyone can make a comparison when one of the two things being compared is available for the purpose and the other is not. It's all mere speculation, useless in my view given the continuities in the timbral ideals of musical aesthetics over such relatively brief period. .
@@DavesClassicalGuide Dear David,
I am agreeing with you! I know you condemn Elgar's own recording of his Second Symphony on balance and timbre. I can understand that, but the recording does reveal a large range of vibrato styles, even in the "evil" Scherzo! From the restrained to the even more sweet than seems fashionable these days. For example much sweeter than Boult [BBC SO] in 1944, which I find feels driven and cold compared to Elgar's actually consistently faster but somehow more flowing 1927 recording. My favourite was for many years the Naxos Edward Downes BBC PO recording, not least because I heard it twice, live, in Worcester Cathedral and then the at the RAH [BBC Prom] shortly before the Naxos recording was issued. ...
Going to the other end of the spectrum - to the Baroque - It seem inconceivable to me that JS Bach, or Handel would have been happy with the flat straight quality of vibrato-less playing that all too often has crept in under the guise of HIP. On the other hand I do prefer the light and varied vibrato of Adolf Busch in the say the Second Violin Partita to the ever present and consistent vibrato of Heifetz. I know that is only an opinion, certainly not a right or wrong in either case, and justifies nothing.
Among the HIP violinists I rather like Racheal Podger in Bach's solo violin music!
As for Ruslan, what a lovely gem to discuss. I also like Borodin's Second Symphony, and nobody talks about that anymore!
Best wishes and keep safe from George
@@georgejohnson1498 Thank you! I know you are agreeing, and I was not disagreeing, really. I just want to caution everyone about what we claim earlier performers did absent clear evidence. In my honest opinion I do not believe you can hear the specific use of vibrato in those early Elgar recordings, especially as distinct to other technical issues with the recording process. All we can say is that the string timbre resembles modern norms. The rest is pure imagination, whether you agree with my general position or not. Orchestral vibrato is a touchy subject--in my view, it's either there or it is not, and that is sometimes audible as such, and sometimes not, but fine shades? No. What you hear is "timbre" in aggregate, warm or cold, thin or full. You can hear variations in timbre, but the degree to which those may be attributed solely to vibrato is simply impossible to say in most cases.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Dear David,
Once again I want to emphasise that I am discussing and not arguing, as I enjoy your views, even if sometimes your choices of favourite performance differ from mine! I am amazed how often you do like what I also like, so I chuckle when you don't, and I understand it.
Now specifically to the LSO of 1927 in the HMV composer conducted performance of Elgar's Second. I discovered that recording when I was ten years old. It was in a big brown card HMV album and I think on six double sided discs. That is fifty years ago now. I was fascinated by it, because the school also had Boult's Pye [Nixa] LP from the early 1950s, and I much preferred the 78 set despite the surface noise and the rest.
In 1973 I got the LP transfer of the 78s on RLS 708, and was delighted to have only one side change! But also I discovered that the first side of the disc containing the Scherzo had been re-recorded a few weeks later as the original take had a technical problem that required a new side to be released at the first chance, and before the new take was made, the recording team decided to make a "rehearsal" recording of Elgar getting his players to "really dig in!"
This is fascinating as it is an example of the very point you have made about conductors asking for more or less vibrato though Elgar's calls it warmth and sonority. The second theme arrives at cue 93 [marked, sonoramente] after six descending semi-quavers in the bass, which he discussed having stopped the band. He then asked the band at 93 to play sonorously
Just a short while he stops again observing that the playing was not very warm. "Now 93: For Goodness' sake sonorously, but not fast!"
Then they really dug in with Elgar singing exactly how he wanted it over the band - they really dig out a big vibrato tone, .and then play several more minutes without incident.
________
Now the style of vibrato in London in the 1920s was quite different to the modern wide vibrato that came in in the 1930s and was more or less universal by the 1950s. It was a finger vibrato rather than one generated at the wrist, and the style also involved copious use of portamento or sliding for position changes. To modern ears it sound old fashioned, but it is there, and I rather like it! It is certainly of its and the music's period! Real HIP because it was the style. One horror for modern ears is the old oboe style, which before Eugene Goosens [first oboe of LPO in the 1930s] was played "literal" and entirely without vibrato in most cases. Hence the old musician view that the oboe is "the ill-wind blows no good!" Elgar was a great admirer of Goosens, and delighted to have the young player as first oboe in some of his very last recording from 1933 ...
If you are in any way made curious about this I believe Warner still have this print in a budget nine CD set.
Sorry to be so passionate about this symphony, which I have very mixed feelings about in reality, but it is woven into my childhood, and I have known it by heart for half a century. Anything I discover these days I shall not know for as long!
Best wishes from George
@@georgejohnson1498 I know you aren't arguing, and I appreciate the detailed and fascinating information. Unfortunately, it doesn't prove anything beyond what I have already said. Yes, the anecdotal evidence helps, and of course I agree that what Elgar is asking for is Vibrato. There are many similar such examples when the term actually is used, but all of this business between finger vibrato and wrist vibrato, etc, is totally unhelpful in terms of our ability to define a specific contribution to orchestral sonority which is, after all, the average of what everyone in a section is doing. Sure, they may use more vibrato in a passage, but they can also bow and phrase differently, and that is just as important. Separating out the various components of a sound in a 1927 recording, with its dynamic compression and technical limitations is, to me, a pointless exercise. What matters is that the vibrato is there, and there is plenty of evidence for it without having to rely, happily, on the all-to-fallible technology or the even more fallible impressions of our own ears. Remember, Norrington does not "hear" vibrato at all. He says the 1938 Walter Mahler Ninth is the last major recording to have none, whereas not only do I hear it plainly, Walter himself says that Vienna Phil used in consistently from the first time he hears them in the 1897 through the 1960s (when he was asked about it). In these instances, hearing is NOT necessarily believing.
Mravinsky is white hot. Enough to strip the paint off your walls. Ought to be WARNING on the sleeve, [this music could seriously damage your head space]
The Mravinsky sounds like it is being played at the wrong speed! I much prefer Ancerl who sounds so much more musical. You can really appreciate the work with him. I find I just miss too much hearing Mravinsky at the speed of light!
I think that particular Mravinsky performance was also available on Urania, but then again, most things are available on Urania, so it's hard to say.
Two other performances that I think might fall "Under the Radar" in ClassicsToday speak, are Solti (LSO) on his fabulous Romantic Russia album and Silvestri (EMI). The Solti was last available in Decca's "The Decca Sound" coupled with Suppe (OK, then), and before that, on a Decca Legends disc reviewed at CT. I still think the best part of that disc, by the way, is Solti's French Tchaikovsky #2 in mono. Go figure. That Tchaikovsky can be found on Eloquence, but the coupled Glinka is his long forgotten Berlin Philharmonic remake.
As for the Ancerl, it's probably best found right now as part of the "Gold Edition" line, where it's now part of a really well-filled overtures collection.
The Solti was my introduction to the piece on my parents' "Double Decca" of "Famous Overtures". Ever since, anybody who goes slower is a little bit of a letdown!
Yes, it was on Urania, and about a million other labels besides (and it still is).
Having said that...the Mravinsky clip in this video...jaw dropping. Never imagined that tempo and precision in my wildest dreams!
@@DavesClassicalGuideThis overture is in a 4cd s Scribendum box and is not cheap, because of speculation. I will look for it in a cheaper edition. Thank you
@@brianrein I kind of wish they'd put out a "Double Decca" box. Sure, seasoned collectors would own most of it, and naturally, it wouldn't all be equally fabulous, but off the top of my head, you'd get:
- Solti's LSO Mahler. Elgar and two discs (obviously) of Strauss Tone Poems from Chicago/Vienna/Bavaria
- Mehta's Schmidt 4th
- Both Solti and Bonyage conducting great overtures
- Boskovsky's Mozart Serenades
- Dohnanyi's late Dvorak and complete Mendelssohn Symphonies
- Gardiner's earliest recording of the Monteverdi Vespers
- Burgos' Falla
- Reiner's Verdi Requiem
- Britten's late Mozart Symphonies and Schiff's late concertos with Vegh.
- Dorati's Paris and London Symphonies
To say nothing of more recent Decca Doubles. What a fun way to start building a collection!
I must find that recording of the Wagner, my god