Outboard Gear - An Honest Opinion
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ย. 2024
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What always irks me is when you tubers drop their own name into the sentence "people ask me. You know, Barry".. it's so revealing. We're you an only child, Barry? We're you mummy's special little boy? That's the feeling I always get when I hear someone drop their own name into a sentence. Somehow it's all about you.
Why are you so angry? I’m actually one of 7 children. Grew up poor, worked my whole life’s. In the last two years I haven’t taken a single day off work. So help me understand why you say something like this?
I’ve also pinned this the very top of all the comments so everyone else can try to help me understand why you would say something like this?
Says the guy who uses “we’re” the wrong way.
@BarryJohns Like I already said, it's something that irks me. I've noticed it quite a lot over the years and it there's something about dropping your own name into a sentence that comes across as self-pampering. Another one is when people say "my" too much, my synthesisers, my studio as opposed to the studio etc, it just reveals something about their mindset. Perhaps I shouldn't have picked on you as there are much worse offenders out there but something about dropping your name that into a sentence that always feels cringey to me.
Tell you what it irks me when people leave unnecessarily specific & negative comments when they could have said ‘thanks for the vid’
@@BarryJohns its all about this Ephesians 6:12 music is spiritual cant be denied
Best thing about hardware other than the sound is that you actually own it.
good point
Yeah, I’d prefer to not have to subscribe to something or have it stop working when my operating system updates.
@@naakaalastudio6655 great point!
That's the dumbest thing I've ever read.
@@hummarstraful then you probably don’t understand it
I got rid of all my outboard gear and physical amps. I have more room in my studio, less gear to upkeep, less signal noise. And you know what? I really like the results and don't miss my outboard gear.
I tested this theory on my wife and friends at dinner. I recorded a song with plug-ins and virtual instruments. I recorded the same song with my band. The only difference was analog and plug-ins. Each player played their part on the VI version. The song was for a tv show and we were asked to track it as a band with the real deal. See, saying a listener can’t tell the difference completely depends on the listener and the material. In my case, I played both songs about 4 Times, shuffling the order and after each round the folks knew which they liked more. I didn’t tell them anything, I just nodded and understood. Plug-ins are not as good as the real deal, but can pass as the real deal when not compared. But the listener can absolutely tell the difference. For that reason I continue to use analog. Until that test fails. Yes, in a vacuum the plugins sound great. But analog feels like layers of fog pulled away. Now, when listening to a song mixed and tracked in analog vs plugins are played back to back on a playlist in Spotify, one will sound better based on these findings. It’s up to you to decide if that difference is worth the investment. For me it was.
That’s hard to test under those circumstances. Real instruments always wins over vst. That variable effects the whole experiment. It has to be both real or both vst.
And to add, I'm not saying you're wrong at all, but a person's proficiency (not to mention biases) in analog and/or plugins would drastically affect the outcome. I absolutely hate that I have feel compelled to clarify with anything online related, but I'm truly not arguing or disagreeing with you. Just hoping to add more to consider with the topic.
man. NOBODY talks about VI when talking about the difference of plugins and hardware. does one really need to explain this?
I've done a similar test - same mix. - ITB and with outboard. Family could tell some subtle differences. to me it was very obvious, but they took a lot of A/B to conclude that the OTB version was marginally 'better' mostly in terms of depth and space - had a little bit more life..... But would they have complained about the ITB version if that was the only one the heard? Streaming does not give the consumers an A/B so they're not going to know any better. But for any test the source and performance needs to be 100% the same and level matched and the same processing applied. Challenge is that 'setting 10' on the hardware and the plugin don't yield the same result. The emulations are never 100% like for like. So it is a hard thing to be purely scientific about without a LOT of investment in time.
@@pongmaster123 they do today. Many will argue the difference is marginal, but that likely because they never compared the real deal to the VI plugin. Guitars , drums and bass are never great VI alternatives for me. Synths are getting better but comparing a Moog voyager to the plug-in is laughable. Same with guitar amps. They sound good, maybe even good enough for some, just not better than the real deal. I
One thing that I rarely hear talked about with plugins vs hardware is that I have probably spent equal tens of thousands of dollars on both, but I never get to admire the plugins, they just sit tucked away in the depths of my computers hard drive somewhere. The hardware adorns my room and heat up and glow
"Placebo effect in everything, and I think to discount that is not a very wise perspective.." I COULDN'T agree more.
I can tell in compressors. I just did an A/B with 1176 plug- ins and a hardware 1176 clone. The plug-ins sound muddy in the low end, to me. I have always tracked with hardware. I think hardware is better to start with nowadays. You can get good clones for decent prices. Having to many plug-ins can be a problem. Every one claims to be a "Game Changer" but they aren't. INMHO.
Great video Barry. You make some great points. I hope people listen. It's sage advice. I also drive cars until the wheels fall off. Luckily my wife is the same. She doesn't care and will drive the vehicle until she needs a new one. I always buy her a new vehicle or one a couple of years old at most. Having no car payments is a great thing.
One of the most important things you brought up is the difference between needing and wanting something. Too many people don't understand the difference, but once you do it makes a HUGE difference in understanding yourself and also controlling Gear Acquisition Syndrome.
Thanks for the plain talk and keep it up.
I can definitely agree. Whatever makes you excited, and look forward to working with it, is the best choice. You are your best plug-in.
Analog gear helps me make decisions quickly, plugins motivate me to be more experimental,I love both.
Agreed. Analogue gear sounds better. Plug ins will do the work. But not as fun as using analogue gear. If you like it, do it! 👏🏼👏🏼
Another great video. Opinion is a funny thing on youtube. If I talk highly of Fender Tone Master pro - I get compliments on my guitar playing. If I criticize the Fender Tone Master Pro - suddenly I'm told my guitar is out of tune and that I should learn how to play guitar. Very strange! These trolls are sensitive and need their purchases validated.
Barry, never respond to the haters. Logic mature people understand you. I certainly do! Thanks for sharing.
My experience of in the box and using outboard very much reflects the position and comments here. I got wise really early on that learning my craft recording and mixing in the box was the most important part before even considering outboard. My OB purchases have been carefully considered based on what I do most-mixing, rather than recording and I've added a few pieces that have the most impact at the 'end' of a mix. I'm fortunate to know the person who masters most stuff I mix and they have said that since using outboard, there's been a weight and depth to my mixes that they don't have to engineer in so much at the mastering stage. So yeah, they give you that extra few %. But I'm not kidding myself, once those songs are on in the car or streaming, it'll make no difference to the listener. I just know. And there is a pride thing there too, as well as a bit of status if I'm looking to impress someone who is considering me for mix services. Which all plays into Barry's points. I very much echo his overall point.... Go outboard for honest reasons and don't try and kid yourself about why you do so. A bit of want and ego is okay if the motivations are right.
I agree with what you're saying. Not sure why people attack others for what gear they like. It's like the tube amps vs. modeling thing or the macOS vs. PC thing or to some extent Fender vs. Gibson vs. PRS vs. other guitar makers. Get a sound you like with the tools you like and go with it. Ultimately, it all doesn't matter. Use what you like to the best of your ability and enjoy it.
Excellent sentiments. No BS, just plain common sense.
Thanks for the information. Don't go on diets. Eat the meat. Love the show and appreciate the information.
Great points…Hardware is just a tool like any other but I will say, our hardware has never been made obsolete by a new OS or stopped being updated by the manufacturer. I will say that using hardware makes you think a bit more if it’s actually needed vs just throwing hundreds of plugins at the problem.
One of the most important arguments and advice - people should think about it. Thanks for your honesty!
God bless you, Barry you just solidified my bucket list to Miss America over here. My wife, Christine America… She knows outboard is important! But you know coming from your ticket? It’s a go!
I would echo the 'in the box first' by adding 'with free plugins'. I think if you can make things sound good with free stuff, you prove you could use the paid stuff - hardware or software. Great stuff here BJ
I went to UK 1980-1984, played at Cowboys in the house band in Lexington 6 nights a week for 3 years to get a degree, strippers during the day, country music at night, kept a gun on the stage, was lucky to live through it, also Mt. Sterling, Hazard etc. Anybody thats come out of KY in one piece and still has half a brain and the passion you do for what you do has all my respect. In Rome these days (not Georgia, the one that looks like a boot), God works in mysterious ways. Keep up the good work. Ciao.
There’s a good chance we may have run into each other back then
This video made so much more sense after each listen. Thank you Barry
"Happy wife, happy life" - that really got me... [well, I knew this phrase, but I did not assume it anywhere in music-related stuff] 😃
Well, as time goes by we tend to become wiser, happening to me. Being just stubborn is just a bad idea in the end... I see gear exactly how you these days. - keep up the good job. cheers
For my own personal productions my analog gear helps me create what I hear in my head. As I'm not running a pay to play studio and my time is my own, I'll keep using it to get the vibe I want. Some great plugs and O.G. available these days, use what you love.
this has to be the best advice with analog gear ive heard. all completely translates to everything in life.
As usual good advice, i don't bother much with other channels these days always come back here no BS
I appreciate that
I agree on car analogy- drive an older car and buy more hardware!
It’s a good solid bit of reasoning your giving out. Do it because you like it not because you need it. That’s good. I probably will never own a piece of outboard gear because I don’t like having a bunch of gear. I prefer playing on a Steinway grand piano versus playing on my S88 through Alicia’s Keys but I will likely never own a Steinway. My setup is what I like and it works for me.
Again great stuff keep up the great videos!
Reasons I prefer hardware.
-It holds its value for resale
-it's more fun and I mix better with it (even made a video about it)
That’s awesome actually!
I would absolutely love to hear some music you have recorded, and mixed. I love your channel, but I have never been able to find any music you have produced. Where can I hear some?
There isn't any.
he made a video about this, check it out and it explains everything.
Hey Barry.. I have seen your videos.. great stuff congrats.. Love this video.. So true.. but I will say this you definitely move faster with the Analog.. but there are no right or wrong way to do this.. Everyone should watch this video 🎉🎉🎉
Hi Barry. Thank you for this great and fresh video. Lots of wisdom! I think that the emulations are going to get better like guitar amp modelling improved a lot over the decades. However, I love what you say about getting what you want and what you love.
Outboard gear indeed sound better. I have a lot of gear and enjoy using it. I work ITB most of the time, and also enjoy it and sound close as good, but man... it's a lot funnier and more inspiring to use physical gear!!!
I feel you bro.. gear is just fun and cool, i love the smell of new gear.. I have a few pieces to add in the future.. just got my tegeler Eqp1 a few weeks ago.. just a lovely unit. Packaged better than new Apple products.
I was obsessed with gear to the point I went The Blackbird Academy at 30 where Blackbird has every piece of gear ever. I used to mix hybrid for a period. For me, I learned a couple of things during my time in Nashville that made sell all of my outboard gear.
1. We would record bands in Studio A and some of the best studio players in Nashville at Blackbird. The gear doesn't help a crappy song. If it was bad musicians it doesn't help that either. It's the song, the player, the instrument. Just cause you sing through an U47, doesn't mean you're gonna sound like Aretha Franklin or Chris Cornell.
2. For me, recall was a bitch with hybrid. Also The plugins are close enough. When I was mixing hybrid there wasn't a big enough difference for me to justify the cost of analog. I'm not the greatest mixer in the world and I didn't grow up on analog consoles or any of that. The ease of use of mixing in the box is why I sold all of my analog gear. I also just notice a big enough of a big benefit to justify the cost or pain of recalling a mix when clients want to revise the smallest little details.
I do have a few pieces of outboard gear that sound in a way that I could never get with plugins or other hardware.
However my biggest points "pro hardware" are:
- I use it more carefully. I know a revision may be difficult. But making decisions and stick with it is priceless.
- After printing tracks (or recording) with analog stuff, my plugin inserts are clean empty, but the mix already sounds good, then I can get started with little tweaks with plugins
- the physical work beyond mouse and screen is much nicer, if you are doing it for couple of hours a day.
I do have no problem though with mixing in the box, if I have to. Works really fine as well.
"I've been using plugins for over 20 years, and switching to analog gear has made my life so much better. Why? Because I can’t stand constantly clicking a mouse-I get faster results with hardware, it sounds way better, and now I’m hooked on gear to the point where I probably need rehab 😂. Plus, after all the money I've spent on plugins, there's no real value in them. Hardware, on the other hand, is an investment. If you pick the right pieces, they can actually increase in value, like owning a classic Neve, SSL, or API console. I bet plugin designers spend a lot to test these legendary consoles, and I’m sure the owners get a nice cut. So, I’ll leave you with this: would you rather rent a 2-bedroom apartment for $3,500 a month (New York Life) or have a $1,500 mortgage? It’s the same with plugin subscriptions versus owning hardware-you can't resell plugins, but you can always sell hardware.
100% agree. Plug-in junkie turned hardware guy. My experience matches this
Cool discussion. When using analog gear there is a certain Weight to the sound that plugins never seem to get. I can work either way, I mix in the box and then exit to my master buss chain (Analog stuff, and print to tape). Mastering is analog until the brickwall. I can work either way because its not about the gear.
It really does not matter what others think about what you have in your studio. The gear you use can also be called TOOLS. You ever watch a carpenter and then tell him hay you do great work, but you need to use THESE tools. You tell that to a tradesman your libel to feel the impact of your words with one of his tools. In my mind, it’s my studio. I use the tools that I enjoy using and get the results that I want to get. personally I enjoy the warm audio 1073. It gives me the sound that I’m looking for. I also enjoy the sound of Chandler Pre amps though I don’t own any yet I will spend the money because I really enjoy the quality of sound that I get from them. I have future purchases planned some are popular use and some of them. I personally enjoy the quality and sound that I get from them. Those are the tools that I choose and Barry enjoy what you have enjoy making music from it, and buy whatever you wish and enjoy the purchase and use of that. Also, it’s your studio. It’s your life enjoy JK.
I love how my 73' clone sounds on this way in with a little bit of EQ as well. To me it has that familiar sound we all know and love that I can't get with a plugin, I can get close with the plugin but it just falls apart. I guess we in the same boat as far as Hardware goes and building the outboard set up would be the ultimate goal. I love plugins and started with plugins and love the flexibility. Today Technology makes it so simple to connect any outboard gear to any setup and even automation some outboard Gear, which is so amazing for us to live in this time of music and art. Thanks Barry. P.S. Love the tactile feel, sound and the power THAT IS OUTBOARD GEAR.
Much appreciation, it's a great video. I see that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, although i do agree with yours. As i do plan to purchase physical hardware in the future when my budget allows me to, i currently have the bare minimal amount of equipment to work with, (An M-Audio M Track 2x2 C-Series Audio Interface) i have been constantly making my best efforts to learn as much as i can about the process of producing, mixing, mastering and engineering in general. I'm at the point where i can master a solid mix with a trained ear and still create a balanced project with a consistent waveform and loudness. There's much more to learn always but it is videos like these that have helped me greatly upon my Journey. Blessings.
My experience is that no matter how much you love the sound of any one element of your recording, very little of the finer details survives to the end of the process after being mastered. The audio qualities of any one instrument is going to be lost in the mix, and the finer details of the mix are going squashed in the Master. You have to be willing to kill your babies.😢
On the subject of what gear/plugins you use, I think a lot of times it gets decided by things other than the pure sonic quality of the gear. There’s a guitar I use a lot simply because it stays in tune really well. I don’t like to stop doing takes to check the tuning of the guitar, and so the sonic qualities of which guitar to use takes a back seat to which guitar is more reliable. It be like that.
Thanks Mr Barry for your great knowledge. When i started off, i started in the box. I have no experience in a pro studio, nor with analog gear besides working with analog mixers. Mixing seems so difficult to me in a sense that with my ears, the mix always some thin, sterile, like its missing some sort of thickness, the mix wasn't tight. Fast forward several years ago, i started learning about "glue, ssl G bus comp" so i started studying it. Fast forward, one day i had my keyboards going through my mackie mixer into my daw and realized OH MY THAT SOUND, so warm, sounds so glued together. And from there i realized yeah there's a difference between digital and analog for sure. Analog has this thicknening to it and it will help me mix easier like on a live console . as i am not trying to dump plugins on to make that "sound". That's my main reason for wanting to do hybrid. Now I'm spending time trying to figure out what gear to buy for starters. 😂.
You should also consider joining Produce Like a Pro on TH-cam.
I agree with a lot of your opinions, especially when presented as such. I think, just my opinion, that this is the best video you have done, in terms of opinions. I'm sad that so many creators are scared of opinion pieces/talking head videos because of trolls et all but it still is, in my opinion, the best journalism we have left!
You should do a video about how much you should have in savings before buying each level of studio upgrade haha
I've released music produced entirely in the box, and music produced on an all hardware setup so I don't care about what people think about which is better. I can do it both ways. However, I enjoy hardware more because I'm lazy, kinda. Hardware is better in my opinion because you get something for nothing...meaning it gives you a tad bit of mojo that wasn't of your own doing. For instance, my Distressor has 4 knobs on it and of course a few buttons and to find a sweet spot takes me 20 seconds. When I use a plugin it takes significantly longer to get the best result, which I have to work for with much more effort. I like hardware because I like to make the music and I don't care to tweak things forever. And not even that, I don't have to worry about CPU usage of the hardware :).
I paid $2000 for a UA1176 built in 2019. After a couple of years of light usage the OUTPUT knob began to crackle and fail. I had to send it back to Universal Audio to have it replaced and shipping and parts total cost me $400. (I could have purchased a Fabfilter bundle with that.) So then I had $2400 invested in a MONO compressor. Then times got tough and I had to sell it. Put it on Reverb, Facebook Craigslist, everywhere. Hardly any interest whatsoever. I had to lower the price to $1500 to sell it on Reverb. But after taxes, their cut, I only made $1,300. So I lost almost 50% that I had put into that compressor. After that I swore I would never buy hardware again. And I won't. But I agree with everything you said. But you got to learn how to mix either way. If you can't do good mix with plugins, like you said, you can't do a good mix on anything.
A couple sprays of detox into the pot would have solved that. 100% of analog gear requires this occasionally. $10 can and you’re back to being brand new. You just had dust buildup on the pot. I’m a huge FabFilter fan, own all their plugins. That said, not one of them holds a candle to real analog gear. Just my 2 cents, got no Issue with people disagreeing with me😁
I use only hardware, but that’s because I still record onto two inch with 1970s and 1980s gear. I haven’t wanted to update to a computer based system, so I do it this way partially because I don’t want to spend the money to change, and partly because I like how it sounds and works. What I have is paid for and I only have to do a bit of repair once in a while to keep it all running.
I find a mix of hardware and plugins the most satisfing.
In the hardware realm I feel the most important component is a hardware mix bus. I use an older Dangerous D Box in one of my studio setups and a 90's eraTascam board iin the other. Neither components are expensive and are easily found on Craigslist and Reverb.
I hear the indiviual mono and stereo buses out of my DAW as being more 'Discrete" through the hardware bus. This discreteness takes the mix "out of the box" in my opinion. Even if I'm only using plugins for processing. My DAWs have 8 outputs. I use one mono channel for bass, one mono channel for kick, I divide drums and instruments between two stereo buses and use the final stereo bus for vocals.
In the hardware realm I use inexpensive compressors and outboard hardware reverbs and delays to provide analog flavor. Since i'm an old school guy who started on Tascam Portastudios back in the 80's, I don't feel I need expensive hardware to get the sound i am looking for. I do precision work with plugins. The hardware providing broad strokes of analog texture to finalize the mix.
My advice to someone who wants to get into hardware is to start with a reasonibly priced mixer or mix bus. The D Box has excellent sound. I thnk the SSL Six would be a good choice as well. Be patient with yourself as you learn where hardware fits into your workflow. Most importanly, don't forget to have FUN!!!
100% agree. If I had to sum up outboard it adds an openness and sense of depth you just don’t quite get in the box to the same degree.
Can you produce an open mix with depth in the box though that is high quality enough to be a professional mix, 100%.
The listener will not be able to hear the difference enough that it matters if the mix is good. Andrew Schepps, Michael Brauer, etc have all migrated in the box and deliver quality results.
If you do this for a living, and want that little extra (more for yourself really) it’s nice to have outboard, but it’s not a deal breaker
I think outboard gear at the input while recording is nice to have. A Gate/EQ/Compressor chain on each channel to be specific. That's all you need I think, nothing on the output other than room correction for your speakers.
Plugins ares subject to a lot of risk, when thinking long term. I'm with Steve Albini on this (!). Digital will not be around in 20-100 years the way we know it now. Hard formats will. This includes your plugins - which can be taken off you at any moment by port changes on computers, OS upgrades, corrupted data, subscription models, profile mixups, password errors, and the tech company simply locking you out.
Hardware just needs an electricity socket. It'll be around for 100 years or more.
Great points Barry!!! Considering most people (I'm guessing) listen to music that is an mp3 and on ear pods of some sort, they're never going to hear the difference. Nobody cares if you are using hardware of in the box. Yeah, I can see the mastering could make a difference in hardware vs in the box but again, how many people would actually hear the difference... Thanks for the video and keep up the great videos!!!
I personally don't disagree with anything you said here.
Except that BMW only last 100k miles now haha
Great topic! I got my first hardware mic pre amp on its way. Been mixing for a year, hopefully this will add the color to my voice im looking for because all the plugins and expensive mic/ RME INTERFACE didn’t do it , almost, but hopefully I’ll find the hardware will get me there.
Agree Barry 💯 percent. Even a reasonably priced hardware reverb sounds better. It's not that I hate plugins, some are really good. I normally start with plugins to balance every thing, but then goes out to hardware to get that 3D polished and tight (not muddy) sound. Thanks Barry 👍
Thanks Barry for posting. A solid and honest viewpoint. Likewise I have greatly expanded my analogue domain in the past 2 years. Mainly because I do it for 'me'. I prefer to work that way.... My own perspective on this:
If time is money and revisions are needed - ITB makes most sense. Have some very high end outboard on the 2 bus.
Analogue HW vs Plugin Emulations - The plugs are getting better with each passing year so the gap is narrowing. So the marginal gains from HW are small. Many high level Pros (claim) to mix (but maybe not master) entirely in the box.... SG, MB and JJ are 3 I know off the top of my head.... so that in and of itself is enough to tell anyone that HW is NOT necessary to make an excellent mix.
However is it more 'fun' to tweak a real nob than en encoder or a mouse.... hell yes. But there are other drawbacks and differences to consider. Not just the1 to 10% marginal difference in 'quality' (it will vary between unit and plugin of course, so I'm giving a ballpark not being literal:-
Lack of recall (very few makers have hybrid integration so far).
Energy costs. Your energy bill will go WAY up if you add lots of HW. for running and cooling too.
Maintenance. HW units die and some (tube gear) will ware out and need replacement parts.
They take up a LOT of space.
It costs EVEN MORE if you want the luxury of automated routing and voice hours crawling about re-patching.
So hardware has a high cost of ownership - and should be aspirational. Agree 100% that it is far better so spend on skills and time to practice before investing heavy on hardware. Unless you're making big bucks and the money is not consequential. Spend 3k on a rouse before a compressor. your ITB mixes will be better for it.
Oh and the trump card for hardware... No matter how many screens you have. A bank of racks behind a mixing desk console is always going to look WAY cooler than a setup that looks like an currency trader's desk :-) ha ha.
Great talk/vid.
Very real. I talk to people when this topic comes up and try to make it clear that I personally had to go through the rigors of comparing and chasing hardware quality to realize that in most cases…you can achieve just as good or close enough with the software.
That said, same as you…I like what I like. I have a couple of pieces I use to track, but even then, it’s hybrid and I have a couple of clean up items I’ll add to the tracking chain.
But all mixing is in the box and I’m very content with my results, as are clients.
It’s all about learning the tools you have
Speaking of hardware. That's a nice looking SSL BigSix you've had in the background for a while now. Care to share your opinion on that? I've been back and forth on picking one up myself for a while. I'd love to know your take on it!
It’s coming, probably in another few weeks.
@@BarryJohns Awesome, can't wait to see it! BTW, thanks for all your hard work with these videos. I always enjoy your perspective.
Interesting your opinion on mastering. My opinion is actually that mastering is better in the box. Just for the sheer fact of how much more control you have over things. But i completely respect your opinion.. keep on rocking Barry!
You made a cool comment. If your mix isn't working ITB, then you do not need to use outboard gear. Excellent.
Thanks for your great advice! -Very helpful & hey, forget the trolls because haters hate and their misery loves company. Lastly, yes, Toyota & Lexus all the way! ✅
I use hardware and software when producing in my studio. I used to have almost all software but in the last three years I have added a fair amount of outboard hardware including Avalon Design 737's, 747, 2044, V55's, Neumann 402's, SSL Pure Drive Quad, UF1, UF8, UC1, Bus_, Fusion, etc etc. But I still do 70 percent or more production using plugins.
For hardware is crucial, because I track with it! But for mixing it’s not a must
When you talk to engineers that work in full service studios, where they have good spaces, you'll notice that their obsession is more microphones and mic techniques. Whereas mixing specialists often work mostly ITB, for efficiency in order to be cost-effective and therefore profitable. And mastering engineers are all about the monitoring/room. They actually can work ITB, but they don't have the recall/automation issue. Often they will be trying to do very little, just the right tweaks. And a GML, Neve and Manley Massive Passive all don't add up to what just one vintage Neumann U47 costs these days. So even if their outboard units are expensive, they might mainly be working on one or two EQs, compressors and limiters. And if their monitoring and room costs 50k, and hardware 50k, that's still in the ballpark of one API/Neve console or a collection of vintage Neumann condensors.
Well said
@@BarryJohns In a mastering environment, it's also more possible to hear the differences between that quality of hardware, and plugins. And where the difference might be negligible over a lesser system, it's a little more apparent in that critical listening environment. If you ever bring your own mix project to a mastering studio, inevitably you will find mix deficiences to correct. And it's often immediately apparent and can be very quickly identified and fixed. For example, one time I even had to completely swop out the Reverb plugin on a main vocal. That was not a mix problem I could 'master'. That's why having both mix/master facilities/engineers and in one studio/building is a definite advantage for studios like Abbey Road and Blackbird. Sometimes the mastering will identify that the mix needs correcting.
Again, great point.
I try to stick to good native plug-ins or plug-ins that emulate actual gear . No weird spaceship cockpit looking stuff that won't survive the next system update. When I'm ready to invest in hardware it will be my mix bus chain. That way everything is using it. Value & efficiency.
I remember being told years ago that I didn’t need any of what I had in my studio. It could all be done on a computer and I got rid of all my hardware and got a G5 Mac. Suffice it to say that many years later, I am using all outboard gear. I didn’t enjoy it. It was like virtual reality music. Some people don’t mind it. Some great music is made this way. It just doesn’t work for me.
Great video Barry! Honesty and humility!
I can absolutely nail mixes without any hardware whatsoever, that being said, I would be lost without my delicious analog modeled plugins; particularly my Neve & SSL channels, the Purple MC77 from PA, and A800 from UAD. I really love the Bus Compressor from IK. I love those plugins. In the HW world, it really does make it easier when using good mics and colored preamps. I'm a sucker for my tube and transformer based mics into a mic pre with big thick transformers, into a HW 1176. It really really makes it easier for a mix to jump together when you do the heavy lifting in the analog domain. Analog during the mixing process is fun but absolutely not required, and in some cases just gets in my way.
can you give us a bare-bones most basic necessity for hardware mastering for someone who wants to break out of the box as it were
It's all about workflow and productivity. If outboard gear helps you get stuff done better, faster, more often, then it's good.
It would also depend on how long one has been producing music. There WERE no DAWs when I started out, and by the time that there were, I was enjoying analogue too much to take a backwards step into the world of (then) technology in its infancy. Things have, of course, moved on in great leaps, but I'll be sticking with analogue regardless - it's what I enjoy, and besides which, I really don't like the visual reference of a screen - I like to listen to, rather than look at a waveform. To each their own.
Barry I'm looking to get into the 500 series game. I recently preordered a Stam Audio SA1b5 (CL1b clone in 500 series). I'm looking for the best bang for buck 500 chassis and noticed that y ok u have the Fredenstein with the meters. I was thinking about getting that very unit. Could y pl u please share with me you thoughts/experience??
A lot of sense spoken there Barry.
Throughout my life (I'm old) as a mixing and mastering engineer, I've heard this odd word used over and over: Need.
I'm looking at aquiring the SPL PQ Mastering EQ and the SPL Iron V2 Mastering compressor: $14,000.00. My wife asks, "Do you really need those?"
I have to ask her, "What is this word Need that you keep using." I'm purplexed.
😜
I completely agree. If you can't get a great mix using plug-ins, then you have no business buying outboard gear. I would much rather spend that kind of money on higher quality microphones. The only piece of outboard gear I would consider purchasing would be a two channel tube preamp for running my mix through during mastering.
I got hardware due to going out of the box. The box was worth nothing to any person that didn't make music, however the hardware retained value better and lasted longer in the sense of not being damaged due to being part of the system I'm using.
I think the real question is: is the improvement in sound using outboard gear worth the time/effort it takes to use it? Mixing in the box is so much more efficient and practical. I've started working in a studio with some really nice outboard gear. My philosophy is to use it to print the signal while tracking and maybe while mastering or printing a parallel drum compression track with a distressor, for example. But I'm not going to go through and print each track through outboard gear
The most coming way of working. Only thing I’d add for inserting after the face is if a person has a lot of outboard, you can print a lot more tracks at once, which I do from time to time.
Great message in this...i totally agree. I have 3 different neve type preamps(rnd 511, 88lb , Ha73) and they all so similar things...sound a bit different, but i really enjoy them all.
I saw Barry Johns posted and here I am first comment 🤷🏽♂️😂🔥
I am in too deep with outboard gear. Started in the late 90s. I am still learning logic. Lol. I am enjoying using logic. It feels like learning how to mix all over again, but sometimes i just go back to the board.
I love my toys. I like to have my toys in the form I can feel and not in the form of files I have to subscribe to. I love opening them up and learning about each component. I love having to upkeep and maintain them. I completely understand the problem of cost and it’s just not feasible for some. And plugins have a great sound. Absolutely. But I love my toys, and owning them without being subscribed to some 3rd party is worth it alone. I really can’t ever go back to 100% ITB once I collected outboard. That would be a sad, empty, lonely studio for me.
With that said, it’s good to learn from plugins. But if you have the means, I see nothing wrong learning with outboard 😁 just do what feels right to you. Isn’t that what art is about?
Yep. Well stated opinion. One a lot of people probably need to consider for themselves.
Let the wife get the Beamer. And Barry gets more outboard.....💡😂
It all depends on the music you’re doing, how much money you have, how long have you accumulated everything for, how much does it take to satisfy you, what are you trying to convey….hardware is about 25% better….id say that’s a good number.
Anyone that decides on hardware because of ITB futility will quickly discover the best path forward. I don't think platitudes matter in this regard.
Great video, yes it is only marginal difference on expensive outboard gear now - if someone can afford it and wants to own it, what's the harm in that? as long as they realize
1) it will not make them famous
2) it will not result in a call from a mega production company in LA
3) most people will never hear the difference.
I feel sad when I see people putting way too much money in initially when they are just learning, especially if they are trying to make a living in it, so many run out of money before they can even get started due to debt and overspending on gear. I can tell them as the gigs come in and get bigger and bigger there will eventually be more money for someone to get the gear they dream about... there...my 2 cents.... : )
Hey Barry have a try of the new crop of AI models. Vendors such as "PasttofutureReverbs" have some more esoteric gear. They are essentially "one dial" captures of gains and thresholds. Good cheap fun, and can be used in free players such as Proteus, BYOD, and NAM (watch out Nam is mono, so needs 2 parallel instances for stereo). I dunno man, the compressors (EMT's, various Fairchilds, Federal, RCA etc...) sound pretty cool. As does the crunch of the pre's/distortions/adda's. Lots of character. Your cpu will hate you for it!
If somebody could invent a hardware console that ran outta the box after it was mixed in the box and it could be charged with the circuitry of great equalizers and compressors again….i think that would be awesome!!
There is absolutely a depth/clarity/transparency factor that analog hardware has that plugins simply haven't achieved yet. IME even external digital hardware like reverbs sound better than their plugin equivalents. Are they noisier? Absolutely! Is that important? Not if you know what you're doing. It's not a huge difference but it is definitely there.
I sold almost all of my hardware outboard gear about 15 years ago after going digital thinking that was going to sound better. About 4 years ago I was introduced to 500 series hardware. When I did side-by-side comparisons to hardware I was flabbergasted how much better analog sounded. It is not life changing but it is enough better that I began re-investing in hardware and never looked back. I will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
I primarily use the analog hardware when tracking. It's paramount to get the best sound you can get going onto the track inside the DAW. It is noticed the most when used on many tracks. The results are cumulative. I would say that probably 75% to 80% of the quality of your mix depends upon that. You can't polish a turd no matter how much gold dust you sprinkle on top of it.
Like you Barry, most of my processing is still in the box at mixdown. However, there are hardware devices on my 2 buss that will always be there because it makes a difference.
Analog is king….. I have a hybrid set up. Like my plugins, have the best… my mixes must must must have some hardware on them …..but you better have the song that is worthy for the money spent…👍
HW vs plugins is like the difference between a Lexus and a Toyota. Both do the job perfectly fine. :-)
I don't always agree with every video you make but this video I, 100 percent agree with you. Analog or Software Plugins are simply sound color palettes. Choices. No more no less. If a engineer/producer wants an analog piece of gear. its because its the flavor they want to hear. If a engineer/producer wants a plug-in. its the flavor they want to hear. I don't think this your opinion I think its a true and honest one hundred percent factual observation that's undisputable.
great video thanks i will do it because I like it :D
Could someone please help me a little bit?
I send my in-da-box mix to an outboard Summing Mixer, but when I record it's stereo output in my DAW, the signal is so darn low. I set around 0dB increase on the level input on my audio interface, because it does not have good preamps.
I would imagine it would be better to increase the gain outboard after the summit mixer (instead of in the DAW on the returned signal), so the software mastering compressor and limiter does not have to do so much of the heavy lifting when increasing the volume.
What is the best way to achieve the most clean gain increase using hardware? Should I get a decent stereo mastering compressor, and simply adjust the output gain, or is there a cheaper way to do this? I do have an Art Pro MK2, but can I use that for increasing leveled gain instead of microphone signal? Isn't that a microphone PREamp?
Because I want too 💯
Well said sir.
Great Video, would you say the same about studio monitors???
No I wouldn’t, more the opposite to a point. That said there are some affordable options to help you get the best from what you have. The Arc system can help you fine time everything. Slates VSX headphones are another great option.