Feeling Motorcycle Traction: A Look at Feedback and Feel on Track
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ต.ค. 2024
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Feedback and feel are terms you hear a lot of in the track riding world, but how confident are you in your ability to feel and interpret bike feedback? In this video we talk about what it means to feel traction limits on a motorcycle, and how you may understand it more than you currently realise.
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Step 1: Read Dan's video title
Step 2: Reckon you already know what he has to say
Step 3: Watch the video anyway
Step 4: Be impressed at a level of explanation and understanding you weren't prepared for
Step 5: Wait for Dan's next video
Happens every time :)
Haha, thanks Raj 😆
man, you're level of not only understanding but your ability to lay down some serious knowledge at an understandable level without losing the valuable technique and nuance that's hard to portray to newer riders. been riding since I was a kid and I never stop learning especially when you post a new vid! thanks for the info dude! u should have way more subscribers!
Jay
Bingo! Best comment ever. Copy and paste on all Life @ Lean videos! Lol
Just about summed up perfectly
Pro tip: when you feel the ground with your face...
You have lost traction.
gee.. thanks!
Had to try it out myself, can confirm.
Hahahahahah. I'm laughing so hard 😂🤣 😂.
Tell that to Marc Marquez...
RiddleRides you need to get a full face helmet.
You need to hear the bike and then understand its language. The more experience the louder it gets and the more fluent you become.
Personally I found the best way to experience feedback & feel simply & easily on the bike on the road/track is in the wet. Even better would be if you ride an off-road bike on dirt/gravel. Great way to learn to stay relaxed & feel the feedback from the bike. You'll quickly/simply find the limits of grip & this will aid in appreciating how things feel as you reach that limit. You can then simply transfer that feedback/feel to dry or wet track conditions. Ps. Seen many a trackday rider come to grief during high track temperatures thinking they'll have more grip. On track I consider the track temperature more important than simply dry, or wet. Either end of that temperature spectrum will reduce overall grip & listening to what the bikes telling you becomes critical. Thanks for all the information & help! Looking forward to my third season on track.👍
Gravel is like easy mode for traction fuckery. Most road bikes will do rolling burnouts in 3rd gear, and it's really easy to get back grip without the tire catching and highsiding. Every riding school should have a beat up dirt bike and some dirt.
Ride dirt bikes first so your mind gets used to sliding a bike around, throttle and brake control. After some practice on dirt and slippery surfaces you will develop a feel for it and natural body English will take over when you find yourself in a bad situation. This experience has saved my ass countless times on the street riding my ZX7 and 748 and KTM 450 SMR. My experience is backed up by the fact that the top GP riders spend time practicing off road and supermoto. It has helped me develop a 6th sense and I just respond in the moment because I can sense the change in feel and feedback.
Also, while you can get hurt riding anything, you will be a little safer at lower speeds learning to slide, drift and lean on dirt. A crash has less energy and momentum on dirt compared to track days at paved road circuit making it potentially less expensive and less dangerous to you. I got my track license at Willow Springs on a ZX7 back in the day.
It will be weird at first when they tell you if you don’t go fast they will pull you off the track! Kind of the opposite of a ticket!
Shiny side up!
i drove in the winter as well with the crapiest tires i can imagine (summer tires and even if its a bit wet the cant provide any traction). i drove up a hill.. after a few 100 metres and many closely saved low siders i drove offroad in the dirt and stones because my little RS4 125 had more grip.. okay i was at 7k rpm (about 25km/h) and drove only 6kmph but hey i did it without any accident.. but i still wanna kill the car drivers that drove with 6-10kmph just to see me fighting with traction while they were passing me!
after about 28k km (around 16,5k miles) i was drifting in front of a supermarket xD my coller hasent worked and i had a piece of paper on my cooler to help my bike heating up at up to -15°C and i was only in first gear but it stayed cold! (okay hot but not overheating)
since then i wanna train drifting and wanna do it again in winter
This. I grew up on motocross bikes. There's nothing better for learning how to handle a motorcycle since it involves constant movement around the seat, leaning, sliding, jumping, landing, clutch/throttle/brake control, picking lines, split-second visual skills and something a lot of people don't think about...controlling wheel rotation to put the bike in a particular position in relation to the track and available lines. I can't recommend dirt riding enough to improve your motorcycle skill.
I mainly ride dirt bikes and I kinda disagree. The angle at which you hit the ground is usually a LOT higher than on tarmac plus the height you are falling from is almost always higher. Especially when riding in enduro environments where trees, rocks, embankments etc etc often get in the way of your bike-less crash landing.... Coupled with the lower traction and irregular surface results in sometimes unexpected bike movement which can lead to your foot making firm contact with the ground (at 80-100kmph, at awkward angles and with not only your weight behind it but your velocity coupled with some of the bikes mass and velocity.... Often ends in busted knees-
Couple of weeks on the couch eating candy for adults 3x a day, free happy meal at a hospital and then several more weeks on the couch and a fun little day trips to the physio to confirm your still too cowardly to use your new and improved knee bit with the confidence and mindlessness you didn’t know you enjoyed so much before. Lol.
Or you stuff a landing up and someone else decides right where your crawling would be a lovely place to make their landing...
If say the bad stacks on tarmac have more severe consequences, but the average stuff of on a dirt bike tends to ‘leave a bigger impression’ on your day to day life for the next few days/months...
And they happen fairly regularly unless your are very, very good and are happy to ride at 80% everywhere.
I’m bringing an old comment back to life here but I think my dirt experience is very beneficial on the street. A few weeks ago with cold tires I was making a left and accelerating onto an on ramp. I was a speed that seemed pretty tame to me but I must’ve asked more from the tires than I thought. The rear started to spin and rather than chopping or tensing up I loosened up all my inputs on the bike except for holding a steady throttle and let her finish out the slide and come back to traction when it was aligned.
If I didn’t have time on dirt I for sure would’ve chopped the throttle and tensed up. It’s definitely a little more uncomfortable on pavement though as it’s much less forgiving. Regaining traction at the right time is super important.
@@elemento1991 good move and save!
I had a moment on a mountain road as I approached the corner I could see silt bands, run off from the hillside, across the middle of the corner coming up. It was a wait and see moment! I held my line and power and passed thru the bands. I could feel the bike move under me and regain traction but it was a pucker factor for sure. If the bands were wider I’m sure I would have fallen that day.
As always, very cool video.
Grip on (front) slicks work like this: first you have it. 1mm lean later... now you don’t.
Road tyres/cut tyres move around a lot more giving you a lot more warning.
I've felt the limit many times on my road tires, that moment when the rear starts to slip, my instinctive reactions have always stopped it from sliding further, I automatically(subconsciously) reduce my lean angle a bit and push with the inner leg, putting my weight more towards the inside and forward on the bike.
@@OnlyKaerius just pause the roll on for the rear. For the front-release a tiny % of the brake pressure (front) with zero pressure on the bars.
I could not disagree more. Maybe riding on the street gives you more instances of vague feedback, but how many riders have the ability to push the front on street tires? Now take an expert racer on slicks...I promise there’s more feedback from the rubber as compared to a rock hard and greasy street DOT.
I remember when I was a beginner and started accumulating significant saddle time at faster and faster paces, I started having these "moments" on my bikes where I felt like something was mechanically wrong with the bike. Like I'd let off the gas in sharp corner and feel like something was loose or not secured in the rear. Or I'd start feeling vibrations through the rearsets and worry that something was wrong with the clutch, chain, or other part of the driveline. I started noticing different engine noises and vibrations and different feelings through the suspension.
My initial interpretations of these phenomena were to worry about some mechanical or tuning issue. But after continuing to put more and more time and effort into riding, I eventually figured it out. As I improved and my motor skills became more automatic and relaxed, my attention began to free up, making me aware of all of these subtle details that the chassis was transmitting to me. Bikes are so dynamic as you ride them and they change geometry constantly. They also transmit a massive amount of input to the rider, especially compared to the frankly numb sensations of modern cars, with their electric steering and braking, heavily damped chassis, etc.
Each new barrier you cross as a rider will open up new sensations that need to be processed and adapted to. Making yourself open to these inputs consciously does help, but I also agree that only experience can really unlock these new dimensions. We have finite attention capacities and until our brains can handle it's most pressing concerns subconsciously, we simply cannot notice the more subtle stimuli.
I just bought a new KTM 790 duke, lost the front end in the first corner the day after I bought it.
Luckily ive been riding for 3 years, so I managed to save the front end but it sure gave me a lesson on riding in colder conditions and with different tires than what Im used to.
Not a track veteran.
On the bike I can feel when grip is less BUT fine judgement & managing can be a challenge.
I rarely ride on track...Keen to develop feedback & feel but not wishing to crash multiple times doing so.
Thanks for sharing & discussing.
Exactly what my coach took me through on Feb 16th, and we'll probably do again for our next session. Finding the limits of grip on purpose, on entry and on exit, focusing on the rear tire.
Had a small slide yesterday on track, 4.24 in the vid explains this feedback so well. Thanks for the vid!
Excellent video as always. One thing that helped me greatly and I will try to do more of in the future is running on a pit bike or mini bike in a figure eight (wearing full gear) in the parking lot. You can crank her over fully and feel the front and rear ends break traction and recover from this, even feel both ends get loose, without the expensive and dangerous consequences of doing this on your big bike. It also helped me with body position, as I realized how far I need to tuck the inside foot in, so it won’t drag first.
I always had cruiser bikes the first ten or so years I was riding. When I finally got a more sport oriented bike (2018 mt-07) and started pushing the limits a bit further. I have an on ramp to a highway that's my favorite spot to practice faster cornering. The first time I felt the rear end hop a little (or slide what ever you wanna call it) man was that a rush. Now I know what my capability is on that turn and it only further made it my favorite turn. Thanks for the great content!
My first track day last week I pushed the limit and broke later into the braking zone. I left my rear get light and dance around before regaining traction at tip in. TH-cam university told me this would happen and I anticipated it.
Man, you're level of not only understanding but your ability to lay down some serious knowledge at an understandable level without losing the valuable technique and nuance that's hard to portray to newer riders. been riding since I was a kid and I never stop learning especially when you post a new vid! keep it up dude! thx.
-Jay
Thanks so much Jay. Means a lot.
Feedback is what you get. Feel is what you develop
Your ability to explain things clearly is spot on . Thank you
Good Stuff as always Dan! Sounds like relax and listen are good tips. In cars we used to have 3 basic categories for it: stick, slither, slip respectively: too slow, just right, out of control. So basically you wanted the car to be sliding a little in a predictable fashion versus not sliding or sliding so much that it looked like a drift competition. You have given us so many tips I feel like I am going to forget most of them :)
That's to be expected Gary. Go over any learning material multiple times long term for best results 😊
This is a good video. This does apply to street riders as well, it's just that we shouldn't be pushing anywhere near as close to the limits. I definitely know when I'm about to run out of traction based upon the feel of the bike. It's hard to really describe, but most people should be able to feel the rear wheel lock up even without any obvious signs that it has done so. It just feels differently.
Personally, I love having the opportunity to go nuts in a parking lot with nice clean pavement and nothing to run into. There's nothing quite so satisfying as climbing up on top of the bike and forcing it to lean as far as possible at lower speeds.
I'm a student of California Superbike School and I love your videos. Have you considered doing a compilation video analysis on actual track crashes and the reasons why and thus how to avoid?
Subscribed, been riding years and still learnt something. Toplad
Your videos are excellent, easy to understand and very informative. I've been riding on the street for many years but this year will be my first at the track, I'm going to watch everyone!! Thanks
I thought it was more the fear that made me go slower on a wet road. Obviously a lot of grip is gone then, but didnt know i was going slower because i'm feeling less grip. Great video again👍
It's both Dan. You know by default that it's wet and that grip is reduced so you'll ride slower. But you'll also likely FEEL that grip is lower too, compounding your cautious approach.
In order to know where my bikes limit is I need to lose traction and possibly crash. Since I'm not on the track and can't afford to wreck a bike or break bones I'll just ride at 70%.
70 is gutsy enough..l only dare push it to 50 only even if the road or track is sticky hot
I’ve had quite a few moments where my rear tire slipped out, not a good feeling but since it happened I’m able to ride according to grip levels as I now know how to interpret feel of the bike itself. Feedback is everything, if you don’t know how the bike is gonna react it puts you at risk for a crash. With that being said, push limits and you will get better 😉.
Great video, I did my first track day and crashed on a corner exit right after a suspension change. I don’t think I understand yet what feedback is, but I have realized I need to go slower and focus on what I’m doing, in order to go faster.
Thanks Dan. I just watched this for the second time, and it was even more valuable than the first time a week or so ago. Very important reminder to myself to rewatch liked videos again and again. Thanks for your great work and videos.
I learnt to find the limit of traction by riding in the rain. You get used to feeling the bike moving around under you, whilst still going at reasonable speeds. If you live in a dry climate you could try riding off road.
been riding a lot to and from work for over a year now, 25 kms with 3/4 of twisty road, and its been raining a lot for like 1 month whereas it always was at most 3 days of rain since i been riding this commute, and i improved a lot, for like 2 weeks i usually got the rear sliding at every commute and now i ride further from the limits but my confidence has gone way up
Been binge watching your channel. Love the videos. Really like the format of them and you seem to relate alot to different levels of rider experience from little to alot
Slow= Fast
Sounds crazy, I know. But think about it.
Slow= Smooth
Smooth= Fast
Slow down, learn the fundamentals. Perform the task smoothly. All of a sudden you're going faster. Works every time.
th-cam.com/video/KMC5VBMxunU/w-d-xo.html
Not really... more just smooth = fast.
Very helpful man! Thank you.
Please make more videos.
Maybe a video on how to properly launch the bike at start without electronics to stabilise it.
Great use of analogies to convey ideas. Dan is a good teacher. He speaks from the perspective of a fellow student and not a know-it-all, which builds trust with the student, I think. Well done Dan!
This really means a lot. Thank you.
Amazing video
It just opened my eyes
Thanks man🤗
Great explanation mate, hoping to start doing some track days this year & being a complete novice every little helps.👍
I’m digging this channel, keep up the good work.
The problem of that analogy of foot on a slippery pavement is that we look at it first - that's how we know it's slippery in first place, because we have experienced it before...
I enjoy all of your methods
My first track day the feed back was unbelievable, took me a few corners to realise why my ass end was dancing behind me lol
As my tyres got warmer and warmer the dancing got less and less, thats when i realised that my tyres were comig up to temp and psi... weird feeling at first then once i understood why it wasn't so bad because i was expecting it.... love you're tips brother thank you!!!👍🏼
Good topic Dan !! I like your analogy with the shoe on wet pavement. I try and have a plan of focus each time I go out to practice,and have looked for feel many times. Remembering the feel of the bike and examination of tire wear when you come in I a good tool. Even at a bigener level of track riding suspension set up and tire prep will allow you to work on your own development.
Excellent description ! You explain it very well !
Amazing explanation. Thank you very much. Will try to work more on feedback and feel :)
Awesome stuff as always man! I'm excited to get dirty on a track soon. I just picked up a newer bike that will pass a track inspection.
I showed your channel to a friend of mine who wants to trick ride this year as well. He was, or thought he was, ready to carve up a track. Then he saw how much goes into it. Now he is taking things slow. Focusing on the fundamentals more, before hitting a track. Thanks for helping us out! Older riders and newer. Many thanks.
Grat explanation!
I love this dance between traction and sliding... i prefer traction 😁🤙
Great vid mate :)
Just wanted to say, yes I have experienced all of the sighns that you have mentioned, though most times if Im to be honest, I had know idea what I was doing. I mean, what do you do when your leaned into a corner and you feel traction break? Doesn't matter if it's the front or back tyre, backing the throttle off or squeezing the brakes, its not going to save you. I think, and I'm by no means an expert, that any feedback you get from a bike when it's tipped in, is the pants wetting voice of Death or the equally shit splatting voice of the equally horrific but rare, 5th Horseman of the Apocalypse, pain and hospitalization. Keep up the vids mate, they are awesome! :)
1:50 Sometimes it happens that the surface provides enough grip when not moving (static friction) but once it loses grip it just flies away. Imagine a piece of gum stuck on the desk and you push it. It doesn't move at all, but once it unsticks there is zero friction. Of course, tyres are not gum and the road is not a desk surface, but still, it's somewhat important to keep it in mind
Much appreciated. I just subscribed to your channel recently. Lost of good information without any BS. Thank you. 👍🏽
Thanks DH!
Very good video!That what you're doing mate is really great.Thanks for the video.
Good work man! A scenario that is very rarely talked about - speed on downhill corners. As you lose the ability to control the bike with the throttle in some cases. Might make for a good video?
Best videos for bikers! Love them
Straight to the point explanation of this concept! Clear and concise. Great vid, keep 'em comin, thx.
Great video . Wondering if you can also make a video talking about , on what to do when we start feeling the back tire steeping out . Thanks.
im suprised you only hav 27 k subs very professionail work keep it up :] ps best feeling in the world controlled power slide i love ridin
This video is very good. Went through a few round about a abit aggressive and felt the power in the back tyre mismatching with the engine revs. I take it this is kinda close to what you meant by feedback and feel
i'm riding quite a lot in wet conditions on public roads (commuting to work), so "luckily" I recognize when traction is lost. never felt the same on track (must be becasue i'm still slow and away from the bikes's and tyre's limits)
Love watching these videos.
Great information thank you
Good informative and explained!!!
Awesome, as always! Thanks Mate!!!!👍
Such a well put video 😁
Some things do not change . Reading comments when I RR in the 80s I went out and bought a dirt bike . Sure MM crashes a lot in practice finding the limit . Dirt tracking allows us as riders to push get the feel learn to react and yes crash a lot at a much lower cost of repair . MM besides crashing a lot makes more visible saves which means he pushes past the simple saves more thAn others .. at a high level it was a constant to save . Once you learn steering and how to assist with leg to pickup a sliding bike . Dirt bikes more foot road is knee really it all transfers. Is there any top RR that does not play on dirt ?
First place where you can easily feel loose off traction is roundabound. When you get on oil and dirt in roundabound you will know
Awesome, thank you very much for answering my question I asked about grip :) Btw great way of explaining it :)
Yeah think I’m on right track (grew up on dirt bike) just didn’t want to push the limit to much, as yeah it’s a bit faster than a dirt bike :)
Len d and a bit more expensive to repair than a mx bike after a spill.... in fact the most I’ve ever done after a dirt bike crash is bang the clutch perch back into position and clean the mud off the hand grip 😂
mozer30 yeah I agree heaps cheaper to fix than a road bike :)
Great video ... i will go with my m7rr and no warmers for the next trackday !!! And if there will be some kind of slides i will try to deal with that... unterstand! Thankyou!!!
Like Sunyata said, don't go out there trying to slide on cold tyres. Even the M7RR that's designed to work from cold will catch you out quick if you try too much. I know you didn't specifically say you would, I just want to be sure.
@@LifeatLean you are right ... always with a defensive way of driving and no digitalthrottle a.s.o.... at 42years you are more awawre what go wrong then go fast and have no fear (kid, Job ... is always with 5% in the back of the head :-) )
honk monk Just remember to keep a neutral throttle so you don’t low side 👍
Always a great video.
once I got feedback of the bike that my front wheel was slipping. Shortly after that I got the feeling back from the ground that I hit it..... Like a Pro racer I blamed my tires for this and changed them out. Never experienced that again "knocks on wood" .
Love them addidas shoes
It's not the surface of the wet floor, it's the sole of your shoes you are supposed to think about.......... AKA 'tires'. You have to ride in accordance to your tires.
I have good feel.
Drive behind a good rider that doesnt hit the limits but is still faster then you, if you kow that the bike can do that (good tires and no crapy stuff in the rain), then try to stay behind him, you can see if he goes wild or is "cruisng" sporty. I've done that at the beginning and the chicken strip was the half after a few km
Very valuable advice. Thank you... I know you're aiming to be as clear as possible when you speak (you're very clear) but it means there's an unnatural rhythm as you speak each word separately. A conversational style would be much easier to listen to / more engaging and doesn't need to lose clarity... For context I'm a motorcycle rider who does the occasional track day in the south of England and I pay my mortgage by delivering public speaking training courses for businesses.
Thanks for the feedback Chris. When I started this I never thought just talking could be so difficult, but I'm always trying to improve. I've had comments in the past of people saying they can't understand me, hence trying to pronounce things a little unnaturally. Still trying to find that balance.
Life at Lean well I think your doing an awesome job. I wouldn’t worry. Everyone has a different way of talking & can’t please everyone. As long as ur getting the message across that’s the main thing in my books
@@LifeatLean Can't keep everyone happy... but you are doing absolutely fine, don't worry about it not sounding 'natural'. If more people understand you that way then that should be the correct approach.
i ve had some slides this year with rosso 3 ..its a really weird feeling. tbh i dont know what i did to not fall off the bike..Holding position throttle..😳
scary but..cool😅
been raining here for a good while and ive had rear slides at every commute for like 2 weeks, now i am much more confident in the rain
@@armanrgun47 after a few weeks slides has stopped 🤔🤔 i dont know
@@ralleralle8620they were new tires? Or you just adapted your riding
Yea you don't want to let off the gas in a slide, you basically want just a bit of gas to keep the wheel spinning at the right speed, then it just catches back if you do it right
@@armanrgun47 i had 300km on the new tires so it cant be the Problem?!
Then maybe you just adapted your riding
LIFE AT LEAN.... I have a question. I have a new 2017 GSXR 1000 and I am just struggling with front end confidence on the road. I use to race 400cc road bikes a long time ago, and after 15 years off road bikes, now I sort of suck. Any help at all?
Just learning, time and practice buddy. It'll take time to get used to everything again. Also consider the tyres you're using. Road vs race tyre feedback will be very different.
I feel stupid... I was able to feel grip level in car pretty often but never have such feeling on bike... even if I"m riding almost 20 years now... why?
Ride year round without rider aids and you'll soon suss out feedback and feel, too many bikers put their bikes away over winter or whenever its wet hence they have no clue how to ride when caught out in shit conditions, my tyres go to the very edge on dry warm days and have done for years, in the wet/cold I ride accordingly.
When your knee down on a 300cc at 55-60 degrees and you’re not on racing tires... you will crash. Ask me how I know.
Are tyre warmers recommended for track days?
It depends on the tyres. For most tyres they mainly just allow you to get up to speed quicker, for slicks they're a necessity.
So, in summary, use your experience to interpret feedback and learn from the results. Rinse and repeat. Just saved you 8 minutes of your life.
Actually, you never need your motorbike upright if you live at lean.
Говорила мне мама, учи английский! )))
Ayyyyyyyyyy✌️
This is high IQ stuff boys. Pull up a chair and learn something.
Ohlins=feedback
im deaf vlogger help me sapot
This is a helpful discussion. I think most here are clueing in on the need to develop the feel you describe in a lower risk threshhold. I’m not an offroad rider at all. I have done just a few supermoto days on combined asphalt/dirt surfaces. It is the low speed dropping the risk threshhold.
So many pro riders i recall went through a period of “riding the bike loose” sliding it all over. It isn’t faster but is a clear learning phase. It engenders confidence. That tames fear. Then refining feel becomes more manageable. And I imagine more relaxed.
It seems to me there is a strong benefit to learning how to recoverably step over the traction limit. Then the ability to dial it back, enhance ones level of feel. Then going faster is facilitated. In a way, that reminds me of what stunt riders learn. Perhaps thats an alternative development exercise. My perspective there is that path pretty much gaurantees bikes and bodies on the ground.
I am drawn to the juxaposition of the two approaches . Sneak up on the limit, or jump right over it. I think like some others here, the holy grail is to go with the later but do so by lowering the threshold.
Suggestion: little low mass bike + dirt or wet surface. This sounds like some of the schools eBoz, Colin Edwards and Rich Oliver run, no?
So says the rider that has healthy fear, does not jump over the limit, and has feel still somewhat on the numb side. But I do have two track days at socal supermoto this weekend. :)