Is House Tully the Least Feared Great House in Westeros? (House of the Dragon 203)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ส.ค. 2024
- Daemon Targaryen and Simon Strong have an honest conversation about the state of the Riverlands in Season 2 Episode 3 of House of the Dragon, The Burning Mill. Lord Grover Tully does not have a high approval rating and his bannerman are running wild. This takes me back to Game of Thrones days and House Tully during that timeframe. It makes me ask the question, is House Tully the least feared out of all the Great Houses? We check out the other Great Houses and decide for ourselves.
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Timestamps
00:00 Intro
00:22 Tully slander
01:31 Starks
03:13 Arryns
04:44 Lannisters
05:13 Tytos Lannister
07:14 Tyrells
10:01 Martells
11:06 Baratheons
11:53 Closing - บันเทิง
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A big thank you to everyone taking the time to watch this. The comment section has been on fire with your takes. Also helping me remember stuff I forgot. Please consider subscribing if you haven’t already! I appreciate you
We all know the rules! If you wanna fight you take it to the Riverlands!
The Riverlands is the mutual combat zone of Westeros 🤣
Riverlands is like that one fan favorite stage in fighting games
@@swagdaddy8298 lol yep well put
The thing about the arrow in the book was that the reason Edmure couldn't light it was that he was crying since this was his father's funeral. Brynden didn't take the bow to mock him; he did it so his nephew could grieve. It wasn't intended as or seen as an insult.
I don’t recall that from the book so thank your for sharing
They turned a beautiful moment of ‘Family, Duty, Honour.’ into a joke at Edmure’s expense.
@@realdaggerman105 Tobias Menzies is also a fabulous actor and they made him a dunce in the show. Wasted opportunity really.
Plus if i remember right he was drunk
@@pyrobarbu6173 to be fair it was a far shot lol
They're a victim of geography for starters, as has been pointed out all the major battles down the centuries tend to converge on the Riverlands. Secondly, most of the other Great House seats are located in secure parts of their domain. Winterfell, The Eyrie, Casterly Rock, Sunspear, Storms End, even Highharden is far enough into the Reach as to give the defenders enough time to mount a defense. Sure Riverrun can turn itself into a manmade island and hold up for a time in a siege, but in the mean time its smallfolk and bannermen can be picked off at will. The bannermen are probably the biggest issue, both historically and their current positions within the Riverlands. The Tullys, unlike the Starks, Lannisters Arryans etc were not Kings in the Riverlands before Aegon's conquest. Much like House Tyrell, they are seen by many of their Bannermen as up jumped Lord's Paramount, many House who can also field more men than the Tully's can directly themselves. Then there's the internal distractions and divisions, Blackwood's and the Brakens feud, the inferiority complex of the Frey's, the Mallisters attention being more focused on the Ironborn than threats onland. The fact the many of House Tully's Bannerman remained loyal to the Mad King, with House Darry still loyal as seen by the tapistries during Tyrion's visit. Then of course there's the issue of Harrenhal, probably one of the most strategic locations in Westeros as seen in F&B and ASOIAF, but the fact all the ruling Houses have come to grizzly endings, which leads to House Whent not having the strength to defend it in ACOK. I don't think you can say all Tully heads of house were weak though, Hoster recognised his Houses vulnerability and sought a marriage pact with the Lannisters, when that didn't work out he wed Lysa to Jon Arryan and Cat to the heir of Winterfell. This securing the Eastern the Northern borders. Overall the problem for House Tully is they are probably the Great House with the most reliance on its Bannerman for it's power, Houses who have their own competing agendas and ambitions.
@@arsebusquets2436 good points. I like the part about the other main castles in the other regions. All very strategically located with that being its own defense in a way. Riverrun was never that, even though it doesn’t seem like a horrible set up either. I wonder if they consider Harrenhal if it wasn’t destroyed. Asking Aegon for that as their main seat with riverrun being their Cadet branch is likely an ambition that outweighs house Tully but a thought that’s crossed my mind.
Something worth noting about the Riverlands "bending" to the North. They didn't accept the whole north as their overlords they accepted Rob Stark as their king. A big part of why the Riverlords were willing to do this was because his mother was a Tully, I feel this is more a point to show how much they we're respected rather than not.
@@Vito5068 yeah I know they’re not bending the knee to the umbers as well. And yeah, fair point. I’m a little more harsh on that decision than I should’ve been.
they didn't have much of choice anyway. Yes it's framed as if they bow to Robb with respect etc. but we get that through Cat's pov who's obviously fully team Stark anyway On some level it's the outside allied force "liberating" and then claiming dominion - because the "liberated" is in no position to object. Robb literally controls Riverrun with a northern army after the battle of the camps. Nothing they could do.
Arya's story meeting people wandering the riverlands quite clearly shows that much of the populace and nobility views the northmen as another foreign occupying force.
The difference between the Tyrell's and the Tully's is Highgarden, the Tyrell's when named its lord acquired nearly everything the Gardeners had, the money, infrastructure's, tax's, knights/ men-at-arms, laws/records, prestige symbols such as the Oaken Seat (Reach Throne), effectively the Tyrell's gained all the king's resources, what they lacked was the history/legitimacy, prestige and marriage alliances that House Gardener had, something they could and did gain overtime, same could be said of House Baratheon. House Tully on the other hand had to build everything from scratch, quite literally in many cases as the Ironborn rule left large parts of the Riverlands completely desolate. House Tully lacked both the resources of King's and legitimacy/prestige of Kings necessary to truly rule their new kingdom.
@@ryancarter1080 well said. And I completely agree. They also gained a navy from the Arbor. That’s why I always laugh about what Bronn is given at the end of thrones, and that no one in the show goes from rags to riches quite like him. Thank you for watching.
Riverlands is the Poland of Westeros
Yep I agree. Thank you for watching!
The Riverlands is the Belgium of Westeros, too small, too internally divided, too many stronger neighbours and this time no larger allies who pledge to defend its neutrality, at the end of the day it was naught but a colony of the Iron Islands for a reason, one thing tho that I never understood is that rivers are a buzzkill for any medieval battle, realistically the Tullies should have no geography problems since all they would have to do is field an army, find the enemy army and pelt them from across a river while watching their enemy hopelessly attempt to cross heavily plated knights over a river, it should be pretty straightforward.
I mean it's what Edmure did to Tywin in A Clash of KIngs.
It would have worked too if Edmure had concentrated his forces in one place instead of trying to protect the smallfolk@@jacklang3314
At least the Tyrells got Highgarden intact and the Gardenerr lands, it was a huge upgrade. If the Tullys had been given a intact Harrenhal and the Hoare personal lands, the story might have been different.
Yeah Tyrell’s got the bigger upgrade. Agree on Harrenhal. Would’ve been a big difference.
In one of the Lore episodes the Blackfish explains that the Tullys have survived as lords of the Riverlands by using marriage alliances to secure allies. Such as Cat and Lysa’s marriages to lord of the North and Vale. The Blackfish got his name by refusing to agree to a marriage with a noblewoman whose house had a big navy (maybe a redwyne).
Yeah Hoster tried to have him marry Bethany Redwyne. He refused and she went on to marry Lord Rowan out of Goldengrove. Hoster was really trying to plant his seeds all over the 7 kingdoms lol. We certainly understand why. Thank you for watching 🙏
I still have no freaking clue why they created this dynamic between Edmure and Blackfish. It was nowhere near that in the books and made zero sense that somebody would talk to his liege lord like that. Also, Robb was not Edmure’s king, it was just so bizarre.
@@Deebosamuel19 they make Edmure a complete screw up in the show. I don’t recall it being that bad in the books. I’m overdue for a re-read though.
@@MondayMorningMaester no not at all. Him missing the shot actually does happen, but the blackfish is very polite, as it’s his lord, and understands he just lost his father. He then makes the shot, but nobody thinks ill of Edmure. It was so strange, it felt like just because he was kind of a goof as Brutus on Rome, they were gonna do the same thing with the actor.
@@Deebosamuel19 Rome is the first show I saw Menzies on. Loved it. Shame it was only two seasons. But yeah, GoT did him dirty.
In Fire and Blood Archmaester Gyldayn wrote that the "undistinguished history of House Tully was only exacerbated by the character of Lord Grover." so house Tully being the least feared great house is pretty much canon.
@@heterinteåke well there you have it! Aegon the Conqueror with his worst appointment as Boss of Westeros.
@@MondayMorningMaester I kind of think he chose a weak house on purpose and in that sense it was a good choice. Why else chose Tully ahead of 4 stronger houses?
Why make Riverrun the ruling seat instead of Harrenhall, since Riverlands politics and wars always come down to control of Harrenhall anyways? Remember that when Baelish is made Warden of the Riverlands, he is lord of Harrenhall, while Emmet Frey of Riverrun is snubbed...
@@heterinteåke Aegon gave Tully’s control of the riverlands because Edmyn Tully lead the rebels that broke off from House Hoare and supported Aegon. If the Tully’s were thinking like Lannisters back then they’d ask for Harrenhal and keep a cadet branch at riverrun.
Not sure how informed Aegon was of the riverlands strength index at that time.
For Baelish, he did more for the Lannisters to get that reward than one of many forgettable freys.
@@MondayMorningMaesterAegon was generally very well informed about politics and schemes of Westeros.
@@morvran9074 but did he have a census of the riverlands? That’s what I’m not sure of.
The thing is that the riverlords dont really strike fear at all. They are generally weak in terms of military power and are primarily defensive. Other than that food is plentiful, they have the rivers, and harrenhall.
@@BlackDiamond2718 do you think if they had a fierce leader that lead from Harrenhal (not damaged) things could be different? Harrenhal could’ve been their Winterfell, eyrie, etc. it’s then destroyed and passed around from house to house. The stronger leader may also find a way to squash the internal fighting.
@@MondayMorningMaester depends cause like the iron throne, the man who rules it drastically affects the outcome of many. Could go from jaeharys to maegor in a second.
@@BlackDiamond2718 Lyonel to Larys lol
Harrenhall being considered a key point of the Riverlands tells you all you need to know about the region in general.
@@thedarkside314 yeah despite its ruined state it’s still the best they got. Wonder how much that reno project costs
They are surrounded, which don't help every time the realm goes to war .
@@memesarentdreams4739 yep from all sides, and by sea!!
Great video! Makes a lot more sense to me with it all explained in one video
Thank you so much, that means a lot 🙏
This is my favorite great house - primarily because of their house words and scale armor after I saw it.
@@iustitiamerchantxiv5872 great words for sure. Thank you for watching
I mean Robb was half Tully…soo…it’s not that big of a beta move
@@r12578 that’s fair. I was probably a little too harsh on them for that.
@@MondayMorningMaester loved the video though and you are spot on they are defenitely the “weakest” great house.
@@r12578 thank you and I appreciate that ! It means a lot
Aegon I put weaker house as paramount so the Targ can easily control them. Tully was a minor house in riverland whereas the real powerhouse were the blackwood and the bracken. Also, Tyrell is from the female line of Garth Gardner and houses like hightower, tarly and other male lines of garth's have better claim for highgarden.
@@anggi8699 I think the lords of the reach had a harder time with who Aegon named paramount than the river lords.
I don’t know about the Tully part. I really think Aegon gave them the Riverlands cause edmyn Tully was a lead defector against Hoare.
Think of it this way… who can keep peace and stability in the riverlands…
Every other great house will fight each other for control and break the realms apart.
The tullys having the backing of the crown, can balance out all the big players.
Fair point. Thank you for watching. I appreciate it!
Something you might have missed going over is what the Reach is currently doing during the dance. The head of House Tyrell is actually an infant, and the Tyrells remain neutral during the war. Likewise, many of the bigger Reach houses sided with the Blacks including the Tarlys and Caswells(the guy who was forced to bend the knee to Aegon II and then was hanged when he tries to flee and warn Rhaenyra).
Edit - Just realized how new this channel is. It's going to skyrocket.
@@Megatron-yn6nc that’s a good point. And like I say, Tyrell’s are in a very similar boat. Older and more ancient houses look at them both as your buddy that got the promotion over you, knowing they didn’t deserve it. Tully’s at least put the hard work in to get it, and bet on the right horse. Tyrell’s were in the right place at the right time after the field of fire. When it comes to fear, I think Tyrell strikes a greater terror because of the soldiers and money they can wield, plus a navy, and those are things the Tullys can’t offer.
I appreciate you watching and the kind words 🙏
I honestly think that whichever House was Paramount of the Riverlands would've faced a lot of the same issues as House Tully, in my opinion it was up to the Targaryens or whoever rules the Kingdom to prop up any House who they wished to rule the Riverlands through marriages but they never did aside from the Stark alliance
@@rafanando4207 yeah I agree with you. Whether it was Frey, Bracken, Blackwood, Mallister, etc, it’s a tough job to excel at. Doomed from the start really. I don’t think there’s a current house in the Riverlands that could do a better job than the others
@@MondayMorningMaester Yeah, Blackwood and Bracken would give each other hell if they we're Lords Paramount, House Vance split into two, Hour Frey is too north and Mallisters have the Ironborne trauma, so idk
@@rafanando4207 there’s really no other candidate when you list them all out like that. Tully does make the most sense when you consider the others. They just haven’t found a way to make a breakthrough with controlling the madness which is the Riverlands.
The riverlands shouldn't even have a lord paramount to begin with, it would have been better if they answered directly to the iron throne
@@matiasrodriguez7408 that’s what the crownlands are for, and gives a ton more sworn swords to KL.
It doesn’t help the Tully’s rep much that in HOTD and the beginning of GOT House Tully is led by dying old men.
@@andrewward5891 yeah that’s a good point. That’s been our pov of the house when it comes to the tv shows.
I think the Tully's are probably the weakest of the great houses and the main reason is because they were never kings of their region the way the other great houses were. For the others it was just a change in title and then they went back to ruling like they always had. The Tully's never ruled so they are always looked down on by those who think they can do it better. The Tyrell's have the same issue but they have certain advantages the Tully's don't. The Tyrell's are better at playing politics then the Tully's, are richer then then the Tully's, and the Reach is less likely to be invaded and attacked then the Riverlands.
@@Wilahelm2 completely agree on all points. Tyrell’s also have a nice little navy in the Arbor if they need to activate. In short, they’re richer, have more soldiers, and more influence. Never being kings before is undervalued imo. People are gonna try you right off the bat.
The Tully’s definitely feel like upper middle management.
@@johansmallberries9874 haha yeah for sure. Picture a reality show with the great houses of Westeros only. House Tully playing little brother all week long.
I know this is relatively speculative but the general disrespect for the Blackfish is truly wild
@@fives. I excluded the Blackfish from the slander. It is known.
You can understand how the Freys especially would feel contempt for House Tully.
@@thedarkside314 next to seagard and maidenpool I think they have the most important seat in the riverlands.
Starks are the oldest, Arryns the first of the andal conquerors, Lannisters the wealthiest, Tyrells have the most men, Baratheons descend from House Targaryen directly, Martells fought back the Targaryens and Greyjoys had the third most kings of any Ironborn house.... Yeah, House Tully is by far packing the least prestige. Worse yet, a good chunk of their bannermen are more powerful and they used to be direct vassals to one of them.
Summed up very well. I completely agree. Thank you for watching
The Greyjoys also controlled (if nominally) the largest fleet.
Personally, i believe Aegon made the Riverrun kingdom weak on purpose. Kingslanding is surrounded by 4 kingdoms, the Vale, Riverrun, the Reach and Stormlands. So instead of giving more land to the Reach or lannisters, or taking it for Kingslanding and over stretching, made a 7th weak kingdom, an picked a weaker house to rule so that they to start have good relations with the Targaryens.
@@blacktemplarbrotherlucius1935 the Riverlands were already a kingdom it was just ruled by the Hoares of the Iron Islands. The Hoares made Harrenhal but were still from II. Aegon defeated them and made riverlands and II separate from each other, giving the Riverlands to Edmyn Tully and allowing the islands to choose their own leader, the Greyjoys.
@@MondayMorningMaester Did not know that thx
House Tully and the Riverlands can show their teeth at times as we saw during The Dance, where they did the bulk of the fighting for the Blacks. The Riverlands became where Green armies go to die. During GoT Tywin did a better job at causing disorder in the Riverlands. Once their Stark allies were eliminated all the Lannisters had to do was mop up in Feast for Crows.
@@shaunw9092 yep they take a beating in war of the five kings. Lannisters and especially the Mountain did a lot of damage. Thank you for watching!
I’m not going to lie I never knew who was in the boat I’m glad you said it was his dad I’m not sure if I missed it. I always was curious
@@SlabbyMess yep it was Hoster’s funeral. Thank you for watching!!
Honestly I see the tyrells are not that different than the Tully's mainly due to the fact that even after the dance the bannerman's still defy them especially during the blackfyre rebellions were a lot of daemon's support came from the reach or how in the main ong of ice and fire series the Florants break away from the tyrells and help stannis and other reach houses .
@@thelastgreyjoy8555 that’s a good point. They share a lot of similar issues. Tyrell’s just edge them in soldiers and money. Plus they have a navy in the Arbor. Thank you for watching 🙏
In the boocks edmure has a "no man left behind" mentality
@@victorlagos6099 yeah they had different plans for the tv show sadly. They made him a dolt. Thank you for watching!
one of the big reasons the Tullys don't seem to be greatly respected by their bannermen is simply due to how they became lords of the Riverlands
unlike the other realms of Westeros who had their own kings before Aegon's Conquest, the Riverlands were held by the Ironborn
and it got to the point where the Hoare Kings had long bled the rivermen dry for generations in the construction of Harrenhal
I mean this castle could have been a monumental turning point to giving the Ironborn inroads in attacking the Vale and Stormlands
but the tale goes when the last stone of Harrenhal was set, the Conqueror landed on shore with his 3 dragons
and we all know how that went ...
anywho: House Tully was given their rise in stature after Aegon burnt Black Harren's line and restored rivermen dominion
it was kinda similar to how House Tyrell was also seen as a weaker house among the Great Houses due to them too not being kings before the Conquest
as they were one of many lesser vassal houses of Highgarden prior to the last Gardener King's death at the Field of Fire
however the Tyrells were in a far better location with only Dorne to the south as possible hostiles
in comparison, the Riverlands was always a source for conflict even during the time before the Andals crossed the Narrow Sea
it is just a hotbed of rival factions, formerly petty kingdoms, all nestled between the North, Westerlands, Vale, and Stormlands
@@fshstckr agreed. Then you add on being deficient in their solider output compared to their bannerman, and the bigger bank in the river lands belonging to the Mooton’s, they don’t really intimidate or strike fear in any one category.
At least the Tyrells got a huge seat in Highgarden, if Harrenhal had been given intact to the Tullys the story might have been different.
Dorne has a little inner turmoil because of the differences netween stony, salty and sandy Dornishmen. There is a mixture of Andals and Roynar there and not all Stony Dornish like that the family in Power is Salty and favours other Salty Ds
@@Max-oi4it good point. Difference is they can put that aside when facing an enemy and the Riverlands are likely incapable of it. No way the Riverlands would have ever fought off Aegon and Daeron l 😆
While it's true that the current Starks are more loved than feared, the same cannot be said for the Starks of old. The ancient Stark Kings of Winter were as described by Ned, "Hard and cold men, as ruthless as the land they ruled over." Case in point, look at what Theon Stark did.
@@jasonvazquez8652 Theon stark did a lot to preserve the north. Complete savage lol
If the Blackwoods, Brackens, Freys & Both Vances. Have far bigger armies each. House Mooten is wealthier and house Malister has most prestige and have similar size army. Then there is who ever is ruling Harenhall for the largest fortress even though in ruined state still gives prestige. That makes House Tully 7th or 8th strongest house in there lands. On top of that most there leaders are weak. The only thing good about house Tully is the Blackfish and he is probably the most famous and accomplished Tully and wasn’t even the Leader even thought he technically took over later. Compare that with the Lannister’s next door The strongest Army, Richest house, most Prestigious as former Kings and strong leaders for most of their history and feared and respected by there bannermen and everyone else.
@@zk4654 yep I agree. If house Tully had more Blackfish this is a different story. Based on what we know, that isn’t the case. Though I have a suspicion that the coming Tullys in HotD will be an upgrade on who they’re replacing. I think the show will give them some shine (Kermit and Oscar).
@@MondayMorningMaester don’t put your hopes up. The Blackwoods will be doing most of the action for the Riverlands in HOTD. Brackens and Freys will also play a role.
@@zk4654 looks like Jace is going to the Twins next week. Also looks like Kermit may not even be in the show. Possibly just Oscar. Condensing the family already.
@@zk4654 but yeah I agree the Blackwoods will be huge with red Robb, bloody Ben and Black Aly
riverrun is their best thing
As far as commanding fear and respect is concerned. Neither the Tyrells nor the Tullys can inspire dread in thier bannermen. What makes the difference is that the Riverlands has ALWAYS had a tumoulteos history and thier vassals were always fighting. Let's not forget that before Aegon's conquest, all the Kingdoms were independent sovereign states EXCEPT the Riverlands who were colonised by the ironborn and before that it was the stormlands who occupied thier territory, all of this due to the inability of the river lords to get thier act together
@@truetory6231 completely agree. A shame they still have this issue. I mock it in the video but maybe not the worst thing to bend the knee to the north in war of the five kings. The north doesn’t play around with the same internal conflicts that the river lords do. Also agree that it’s not jewelry as bad in the reach. Same promotion for Tyrell’s and tullys, but not the same issues to deal with.
Well house Justman was pretty great.
@@morvran9074 long long time ago. They accomplished some great stuff but are long forgotten. Thank you for watching.
Oscar Tully gonna change all that
@@aryamangogoi6764 the young trout did well last night. Rocky start but he adjusted.
@@MondayMorningMaester waiting for him and Benjicot Blackwood smashing Lord of Storm's end and their grand entry in kingslanding 😎
The Riverlands have always been looked at as weak. But maybe there was a time when they were that good
I think they’ve always had so much turmoil and internal conflict they’ve become their own worst enemy. Add on the fact that every other kingdom besides Dorne and Stormlands share a border with them and you’re set up for failure. Their liege seems to be historically weak too. Daemon says as much at the beginning of this new episode 🤣
@@MondayMorningMaester Stormlands no longer border them only after Aegon's conquest. Before they bordered everyone except Dorne
@@tobiasit2190 unless I’m mistaken I said Dorne and Stormlands are the only 2 that don’t border. Western Crownlands separate them which you elude to. Thanks for watching!!
not even when the king of the trident was from the House Justman, a union of the house blackwood and bracken, imagine with the Tullys
@@MondayMorningMaester true that any rivals lords around you from different regions will bound to weaken you over time
At the end of the day, Tywin actively destroyed his own house. Not sure if that is a win, my man.
@@Joe-ss9cr sure but not what I’m talking about in the video. Talking about his control over the west. He was a shit parent, agreed.
For starters, their sigil is a fish
@@longclaw22-72 lol and Daemon took advantage of that already by calling them a fish without a head
Well having a food fish as your sigil is not very intimidating.
@@TheMrPeteChannel haha they need to put armor and a sword on that thing
Its about land mass and levies as it about historical leadership, the Tullys were the first to defect to again and had win fall
Its a common misconception that Edmure isn't a good archer. The book even says if not for his grief hed have made the shot. So basically had it been anyone else but his father he would make the shot.
@@joshuabryant9845 I’m sure he would have. The show probably took liberties on that
Another thing to mention about Dorne, is that they got to retain their royal title of "Prince/Princess" while all the other royals of the realm were demoted to Lord's Paramount. I think that alone is a huge signifier of their strength and capabilities throughout the entire continent, their successful defiance of the literal Dragons notwithstanding too of course. They are in my opinion one of the most impressive houses. What other house was able to bring fear to the godlike dragonlords of house Targaryen? None.
However in regards to Tully I agree that it isn't quite fair to judge them so harshly since they own the shittiest Kingdom of all due to the Riverlands becoming a Fortnite Battle Royale every time a war happens, and literally the tiniest sneeze causes it all to burn widespread. Their only natural defense/strength is their rivers which doesn't matter for shit really when it comes down to it. But also would agree that one of if not the biggest problems is how they border literally every other Kingdom. Living there would be a living nightmare. Anytime the Kingdoms went to war you would know right away you were going to get absolutely blasted harder than anyone else.
@@Nemenon yeah one of the other things that lead to the Blackfyre Rebellion. It’s funny semantics because if the Martells or rhoynar in general styled their rulers kings and queens, they’d likely be lords and lady just like everyone else. Going by prince and princess made that an easier pill to swallow for Daeron ll.
I agree on how impressive they are. Damn near 200 years resisting the Targs is pretty impressive, especially during the dragon years.
I commented this elsewhere, but no way the Riverlands could withstand Aegon and Daeron 1 like Dorne did. That takes a team effort to resist that. Granted they do have geographical advantages that the riverlords don’t have. I understand that.
I think Tully were respected because they show honor and loyalty but not taken seriously because they are too weak but kept in power because they have good administrative leadership.
For centuries Tully ruled the Riverlands but many of their "vassals" don't take them seriously because usually Tully main army are made up of other houses. The Houses that many fear and respected has always been Blackwoods and Mallisters due to them being the main brute muscle and numbers of Riverland defense.
Blackwood are powerful family with longer history than Tullys who used to rule the north then riverlands after their exile from the north. Many great riverland fighters, kings, and crown princes and war victories comes from Blackwood tides while not forgetting most notable figures in GoT history originally have relationship to the Blackwoods.
Mallister were Riverland coastal defenders with history of fighting iron-borns and defending the seagard, flints , and etc from pirates and rival houses it was mallisters who fought Lannister's head on at harrenhall .
After all of that Mallister and Blackwoods follow Tully because they owe Tully for their leadership because Tully accepted Blackwoods as their own when they had no place to go when starks force them out and Mallister were close friends with Tully family before they took the river throne. It was Mallister and Blackwoods who vote Tully to be their lords not because of fear but out of respect.
Don't forget that the Baratheons had multiple vassal Lords that fought against Robert during his rebellion.
@@Korsav0 yeah they did, but small potatoes compared to the other lord paramounts. Typically not much turmoil there.
Agree with the fact that Tullys get bullied by George all the time. But to note: Dorne is quite divided. Obviously not like the Riverlands but there are Rhoynar dornishman and first men/andal dornishmen. Yronwoods and their vassals have rebelled against Martell rule many times. Stony dornishmen historically resist the rhoynar influence and try shit. Even in the current timeline they had a conflict with Oberyn and Doran had to give up his son Quentyn as a squire/hostage. Then there are Daynes who seem to really like Ned Stark even tho their liege lords Martells hate the rebels for what happened to Elia. Daynes also married into stormlands house Dondarrion (failed cuz Beric got lost in Riverlands) and gave their lord Edric as squire to a lord very loyal to Robert.
@@cheangizzz yeah it’s a good point about the dornish. Oberyn was caught in bed with lord Yronwoods paramour and challenged him to a duel to first blood and that’s where the red viper was born.
House Tyrel is the least loved house in terms of vassal loyalty. I'd say the Tullys are second and Greyjoys are third.
@@MondayNightHugz they’re up there, no doubt. Like I said in the video, they have a similar path as the tullys cause they were promoted into the job. They come from lesser beginnings than the tullys do at the fall of House Gardener despite marrying a daughter at some point and claiming his blood is in them to some small extent.
I personally beleive staying under the north was the correct move no matter how someone thinks it makes house Tully look.
If Rob had won it wouldn’t matter who sat the Iron Throne next, they wouldn’t let the North and the Riverlands remain independent without a fight. They would attack the Riverlands every chance they can in an attempt to reunite the realm.
By being vassals of the North, they ensured the North had to fight to protect them in the future wars of reunification to come regardless of how the houses alliance fared in the future (which was irrelevant anyway as they simply lost the war)
@@Ryanfinder226 Fair point. Due to where they sit and how often they’re picked apart during wars, it does make sense for them to ally with someone else. I was being a little more tongue in cheek I guess. Just piling on to the way House Tully is perceived. In a vacuum for that particular incident it makes sense.
"correct move" implies there was some sort of free choice, but there really wasn't. Classic situation of foreign power "liberating" and then claiming dominion because the "liberated" is in no position to object. Riverrun is literally occupied by a northern army vastly outnumbering the rivermen after the battle of the camps, what were they supposed to do?
It's never framed as forceful occupation mostly because we get the story from Cat's pov who is obviously team Stark anyway....
@@blaubeer8039 fair point and I wonder what this would lead to if the red wedding never happened. Like would the riverlords be ok with this after the war of the five kings was over and they weren’t decimated? I appreciate you watching!
@@MondayMorningMaester Robb effectively gave up the riverlands the moment he decided to march his northmen back home to defend vs the ironmen. After the battle of blackwater with the Lannister - Tyrell aliiance, the desaster of Duskendale, the Karstarks gone and Jaime freed there's absolutely no way the riverlands defend themselves - and everyone knows it.
The Blackfish and Tytos Blackwood keep fighting for honor's sake "hey, look how cool we are", but most riverlords are into peace negotiations pretty much immediately, some even before the red wedding. The war was just over for them.
Honestly, I think the weakness of the Tullys is by design. One, it makes the Tullys reliant on the Crown for their power. They are only in charge because the Crown says they are. And they know it. So we see for basically all of Tully history, they have remained loyal to House Targaryen. And it also makes the other great houses of the Riverlands look to the crown when House Tully itself is in a indecisive state. Basically becomes Crownlands+ in those instances. Really, House Targaryen only lost the Tullys in the perfect storm of their worst possible king ruling at the time of the most ambitious Tully.
Riverlands dont have a tradition of statehood. It was a disputed territory where others used to fight, which lost its only purpose once there was peacetime. Riverlands never really developed any kind of common identity or conventional power structure
like others did. Even in Reach and Stormlands, before current wardens, there was previous long-standing leadership (Durrandon and Gardener), while Tullies simply led a rebellion against outsider occupation.
Another thing, every house in the North has only one power center to handle, the Starks. Same goes for others. But every Riverlord has Tullies (or whoever was rulling the Trident at the moment) and the other great house from the neighbouring kingdom equally threathening to their interests, which must have further diluted loyalties.
So yes, you are correct. They are not as feared as the others, but there is a fairly obvious reason for that, and its not their beta attitude. They had to choose side, Rob of Joffrey, or they would have had to fight both being completely surrounded. Geopolitics, baby!
@@ilijas3041 well said. I was a bit harsh on the beta name calling during war of five kings. Thank you for watching.
Edmure is done dirty
House Tully have some respect in the Riverlands, compared to the Tyrells who are seen as a over reaching leaches
@@Al4___ the Tully’s at least earned what they were given. They fought against Hoare and were rewarded for it. Tyrell’s gave the castle to Aegon and were rewarded for it. Big difference.
Would you fear a man named after a comically inept (though lovable) Muppet?
@@WickedCool23 lol that’s a good point. Notice how he didn’t name Starks or Targaryens after muppets. Just the Tullys 😂
Well damn, not Elmo and grover catching strays lol 😂
@@Karsielatee lol hopefully Oscar gets a chance to do them right. Let’s see how he addresses Daemon next week.
@@MondayMorningMaester 😂 he’s our only hope 🙏🏿😭 thank you for replying, love your content, keep it up 👍🏿
@@Karsielatee thank you so much 🙏I appreciate it
Well... HotD episode 2x06 answered this question.
The problem with the Riverlands. There is no disperity between the Houses, The Blackwoods, Brackens, Frey... They are as rich and powerful as the Tullys. And because of this, a weak Tully lets them go against eachother without direction. House Tully is not the most feared, it is not the most prestigious among them, but it is considered the most solid.
An extension of their house word "Family, Duty, Honor."
The Lannisters and the Tyrells are the richest in their regions. The Martells have the prestige of millennia. The Starks the prestige, the Arryns the military strength. The Tullys, They are seen as the anchor of the region. The barometer that determines what is honorable. What prevents the BrackenvsBlackwood dispute from ending in real extinction. or the House that prevents an uprising from creating chaos in the region. Not through great forces, but through their diplomacy and unions. I imagine it more as a house that always tends to have two or three more houses under alliances, through marriages.
Riverlands have a border with all the other states of Westeros except Dorne.Also they have the least coastal coverage among all the other kingdoms and that too on the less important Sunset Sea.
@@absolut.4075 the western portion of the Crownlands blocks them from the Stormlands but only a small amount. Previous to the crownlands the Durrandons of Storm’s End ruled the Trident for a time before House Hoare.
For the rector for HOTD in the Reach the Corrent lord Tywell is a child, at least in the book they are, can't remember if they said so in the show. But I don't see a reason to change that
@@ctchimchar5258 can’t recall them mentioning in the show. Excited to see some scenes in the south with ormund and hopefully Daeron
It's funny that the main stain on House Arryn was actually because of a Tully mother 😂
@@edwardtafadzwafusire9243 you can make the argument that house Arryn has the weakest representation of all great houses on the show (thrones and HotD). Lysa and Robin are… terrible lol. Let’s see if Lady Jeyne can bring some honor back to the big Falcon.
The shows like to slander the Tullys, Edmure is a good man, not a blundering fool. Blackfish didn’t take the shot for him out of disrespect, but because Edmure was deeply upset about his dad, he was crying and couldn’t compose himself enough to do it. It was a touching moment between a uncle and a nephew that they turned into a joke. Kermit and Oscar Tully may have funny names and be very young, but they are very competent and respected come wars end.
I would consider the Tyrells to be far less respected and to have far less control than the Tullys.
Sure both got raised up to high position, but the Tullys weren’t given someone’s ancestral seat, they were simply rewarded for instantly jumping to help Aegon drive the ironborn out. Aegon saw the Tully’s had a good reputation among the riverlanders.
No surviving house ever reigned as kings of the trident, no other house held Riverrun. House Tully dates all the way back to the first men, so there’s not really another house that can claim they deserve it more than them.
When you look at the reach it’s a very different circumstance. The Tyrells were essentially lesser nobility claim a vague connection to the Gardeners. They weren’t granted the reach for an act of valor or by rights of their House’s established respect or strength, but because they surrendered a castle that was never theirs to begin with. Almost every house in the reach has just as much if not more of a claim to Highgarden and the legacy of Garth Greenhand as the Tyrells.
Pretty much every time a with the exception of Roberts Rebellion the entirety of the Reach shatters and the Tyrells either have to fight to regain control or roll over and stay neutral, which is what we are seeing them do in House of the Dragon. They simply stay out of the Dance entirely because Lord Tyrell is an infant while the rest fight among themselves.
In fact the Dance has probably been the single most threatening war for house Tyrell due to the extreme power and influence the Hightowers had. It’s entirely possible had the Greens won cleanly that the Hightowers would’ve taken the chance to claim disloyalty to the crown on part of the Tyrells and see themselves as lords of the Reach.
@@brendan9868 good points. The Tyrell’s and tullys have a lot in common. Tully’s more so earned their lord paramount title than the Tyrell’s. I just think the Tyrell’s have more power than the tullys do. Numbers in arms, a navy, money, influence, less warring between bannermen. They do have split bannermen when it comes to wartime that they don’t have a control over, you’re right. I think both lack a powerful lord. We don’t ever see a dominant person take control of the region for either.
who do you think is the most successful house in westerosi history?
i think this would be the gardeners while they are officially extinct you have to remember that the starks are a cadet branch bieng decended from brandon the blood blade gardener and the lannisters decend from lann the clever who was the son of one of garth greenhands daughters either florrian the fox or rowan gold tree if this is true then you have to think that the three stronges of the seven kingdoms the reach, westerlands and the north were built by the gardeners the latter two still being ruled by houses directly decended from two grandchildren of the first and only high king of the first men garth the greenhand.
@@jasonseaton4593 I’ll say Martell based on their resilience against the Targs for near 200 years and what they were able to retain after marrying in with Daeron ll (keeping their prince/princess title and being responsible for the continuation of the dynasty through Dany). That’s a feat I don’t think any other great house could accomplish. They have help with the landscape and geography of Dorne but their rule kept everyone in line. Thank you for watching 🙏
@@MondayMorningMaester good point but you have to think of the impacts on dorne's economy and people would it not have been wiser to at least pretend to bend the knee and start an early dance of dragons? also while brave their resistance i personally think was stupid as it would only have taken one of their vassal houses ambition to rise to end martell rule if i was rhaenys i would have offered both the daynes and bloodroyals the lord paramount status and watched on dragonback as the dornish fight each other.
@@jasonseaton4593 yeah but that didn’t happen though. They all seemed pretty uniform against the Targs. The Yronwoods can be prickly but even they didn’t falter. Overall just impressed at what they were able to accomplish for a long period of time.
No there 2nd behind the Arryns of the vale 😂
@@jimboskii2555 no great Arryn leaders in GoT, and just meeting Jeyne Arryn now, but at least they follow orders. Nowhere close to the turmoil in the Riverlands.
@@MondayMorningMaester yes they do have valiant knights threw out history but the Arryn forces doesn’t inspire fear in other houses, even in the vale.
This is a daft video
About as daft as the comment. Thanks for watching.