Separating The Art From The Artist
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 พ.ย. 2023
- Talking about when and how, if even possible, to separate the art from the artist.
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If you think about it, you would probably strongly dislike, just personally, almost every person in music, or at least enough of them that you would have to stop listening to the bands, if you didn't separate the art, from the Artist.
This is very true. My most recent ex said she couldn't separate art from the artist and sure enough like 80% of bands I'd bring up she'd go on about why they're bad because of one person from the band
Yeah, like are we going to cancel Mozart for touching a lady’s bum in, like, 1574? Like, you see how crazy it gets sometimes?
@@SickBoyOC Haha, yeah, and I bet if she met the other ones, she would dislike 100%.
@@wheelsofmercury Yeah, exactly.
Very true 💯
“Art is the extension of one’s soul”
2023 internet culture: *well akchually*
To quote Nick Cave "I don't think we can separate the art from the artist, nor should we need to. I think we can look at a piece of art as the transformed or redeemed aspect of an artist, and marvel at the miraculous journey that the work of art has taken to arrive at the better part of the artist's nature."
Great video! As an avid black metal fan it’s something that comes up a lot. I’m personally on the side that you can’t separate art from artist, one wouldn’t exist without the other yet I believe you can do both - acknowledge that the artist is a pos AND that the art is good/bad without dismissing it because of who the artist is or what they did. Everyone draws their line differently.
You are right free speech is important but it doesn’t mean that you don’t get to suffer the social consequences that come with certain viewpoints.
My personal opinion is that I can separate the art from the artist in most cases. I’m not gonna buy a physical copy, but I’ll listen to it on TH-cam if the music is good to me. But if someone can’t separate the art form the artist, that’s perfectly fine, I’m not gonna rip into a person because of that. Same goes for someone who can separate the art from the artist. Everyone has their own boundaries on what’s ok to listen to. And that’s ok. Please continue to do that.
My funny moment was trying to get into black metal and being really repelled by quite a few of the group's politics and philosophies and I was like, "Jimmy, you're not going to become a nazi by listening to music," and I struggled but mostly got over it in the end. Also, not all black metal artists are nazis and I refuse to let music be ruined by bad apples.
@@Remedy462 Well said. Black metal is a style of metal. Many metal fans are loyal to specific genres, but it's not a prerequisite. Just because one enjoys Darkthrone, does not bind them to the genre of black metal and all artists associated with that genre. That's the same as saying because I like pop music, then I must like Taylor Swift as much as I like The Talking Heads. Genres and subgenres were created by media critics and journalists and we don't have to buy into their labels. They only need to serve as a guide for discovering our preferences as consumers.
The most shocking thing about this whole video was learning Metal Hammer is still going.
The notion of separating art from the artist is not as black and white as one might think. There are many different angles to approach this. I can recognize that a lot of acclaimed musicians are terrible people, but as long as the music itself isn’t a reflection of that; you can separate the art from the artist in our heads. As I Lay Dying is a great forerunner of melodic metalcore and An Ocean Between Us is an amazing album. What Tim Lambesis did was inexcusable, but since he went to prison and is trying to better himself, I don’t feel uncomfortable owning a copy of the Powerless Rise. When it comes to Dissection; Storm of the Light’s Bane is an absolute classic in melodic black metal, but Jon Nodtveidt was an accessory to a murder and possible hate crime. However since Jon is dead, I don’t feel uncomfortable buying a Dissection album since no money is going to him. The third example is Vektor. One of the best modern thrash metal bands and Terminal Redux is a masterpiece; however what David DiSanto did was despicable and he doesn’t seem to learn from or better himself from the incident. For this reasons I am cautious about giving money to a Vektor album. It’s better to listen to Vektor for free.
Hi, just in the spirit of getting to the bottom of stuff, wasn't the Vektor stuff largely debunked? He's even back with the band. I'm open to being wrong but I could have sworn I read earlier this year that his allegations got debunked or where largely proven to be exagerated.
@@Deathworg1He did make a video about it last year, but really what he did was explain the events leading up to the incident. Even if his ex-girlfriend started the incident, it still wasn’t okay for him to do that. If he wants to gain any respect, he should apologize for what he did and try to better himself.
@@mindful2864 thank you for the reply
i have a different take on this. I would rather pay for Vektor's music (and I already had all three of their albums on vinyl before anything about David DiSanto came out in any case). For one thing, he's not the only person in the band (well, not any more) and a lot of people these days seem to have forgotten why "guilt by association" is a really, really bad thing. I'm not suggesting you've forgotten that, BTW, but I think plenty of people have. For another thing, there's a fair amount of evidence to suggest that ostracising people for their wrongdoings only makes them more likely double down and less likely to see the error of their ways. That's not to say you should pretend they didn't do anything wrong, either. If I had an opportunity to express my opinion to David DiSanto I would say I think his music is great, but I would respect him a hell of a lot more if he were to take ownership of what he did, genuinely apologise and try to make amends.
@@marktaylor7162 You know, I completely agree and honestly who knows, people can change. I’m not going to be one of those ones who just doesn’t buy albums from bad people, but it is something I’m going to be mindful of and especially to where my money is going. In the original comment, I made it seem more black and white but now I feel that there’s other ways to approach this issue.
Good fucking job. So many people need to hear and UNDERSTAND that it’s entirely up to them whether they separate the art from an artist.
This was a good, well thought out video, especially the part about pointing out contradictions and hypocrisy.
You've not mentioned them here - but Iced Earth are a REALLY big deal for me and a lot of people. Many people simply refuse to listen to them anymore, and can't separate the art from the artist.
I know a guy who literally has an Iced Earth TATTOO - and he can't stand to listen to them anymore.
I tried to convince him that he can still love the music. That it's what the music MEANS TO HIM that matters. That if he listens to Iced Earth - it doesn't mean he's "supporting" the artist. But no - he just can't change his mind on it.
For me - I still love Iced Earth, they're a top five band and I'll always continue to enjoy the music.
This topic is really interesting and I'm glad some people can have respectful discussions about it. I think the most important thing is to respect each other's choices and not condemn them for either choosing to stop listening or continuing.
On a related note - I remember watching a documentary "Wagner and Me" by Stephen Fry - he's a famous actor/comedian/personality here in the UK and he absolutely LOVES Wagner's music. Thing is - Wagner is a famous anti-Semite, and his music was used by the Nazis in propaganda. Stephen Fry is a Jew - so a part of the documentary is about his internal reconciliation between loving the music and questioning the man.
The way that he talked about Wagner's music was very personal and showed he didn't really think about who the music was by - usually - when listening to the music.
Music - for some people - is about communication and connection. You've got to feel a connection with the artist.
But for him - and many others - the music is a separate entity, it's abstract - and we see ourselves reflected in it, rather than feeling that it's communication from someone else.
For some people - when they listen to music, they're not really thinking about the artist at all, and just purely reflecting how the sounds make them feel.
I came in the comment section to read this. I love Iced Earth. Jon acted like a **** and he's paying for it to this day. But man, he is such a great music writer.
I agree with everything you said. I can, for the most part, separate the art from the artist, and I do still listen to Iced Earth.
But, damn Jon Schaffer - I can no longer listen to some of my favorite music and NOT think about him. HIM. Not the art, but HIM. I listen to it, and I still enjoy it, but it is forever tainted for me.
I tell myself that I listen to it for Stu and Hansi.
Really well done video man! Its a very nuanced topic. I think the thing that naturally gets people defensive is the “you have an album in your collection that has a problematic member so you as a fan and person are problematic”.
That’s where it really snowballs out of control in my opinion.
Oh, my God, yup! Some guy tried to call me a fascist on Reddit for liking a few controversial black metal bands. I was like, dude, you don’t even know me!😅
100%. I recently had a convo on Reddit(I know, why do I even go there) and the guy argued that owning a freaking Archspire album made me problematic. Why you ask? Well they are on Season of Mist and SoM also endorses Drudkh and in Drudkh there’s a guy who’s also in Hate Forest and those are sketch!! I kid you not…
@@fari8034 Lololol, that is unreal!
The defining factor for such cases for me is if the art itself reflects the opinions of the artist. I wont listen to some black metal band with antisemitic lyrics. If the artist is antisemitic, but the art doesnt reflect that and is just like any other art of that sort it is okay to enjoy that art, as long as you dont support the artists in any way, for example buying cd's or vinyl's from that artist.
And here I am owning all GBK albums on vinyl. Yet not once in my probably 10years+ of listening I took off my headphones and went: ”you know what? Maybe the Jews are a problem?” No. Very firm no.
I can look at that message and say - this is filth and I disagree. But I’ll also buy music I enjoy. To a certain degree ofc. There’s always exceptions to the rule.
One thing that free-speech proponents overlook is that freedom of speech doesn't equal freedom from consequences.
Great video, bro. I've seen Pantera twice back in the day, and I recognize the attempt Phil is making as well. Glad I caught them when I did, while I could see Dime and Vinnie and not this "tribute".
My brain separates art from artists without asking. i either like a piece of art, Or dislike it.
Great video! I usually consider a few factors: Is the artist alive or dead? Did they make one bad choice or is it an ongoing pattern? Do they seem to be trying to be a better person? Does the artist's problematic behavior/ideas makes its way into the work of art? Is the artist and the art very closely intertwined (e.g., Woody Allen, Louis CK)?
I personally don’t think you can separate art from the artist, BUT that doesn’t make the art any less important. If the artist is a deplorable human, the art doesn’t absolve the person. There’s TONS of examples of people flocking to art as “good” BECAUSE of some controversial topics regarding the artist, not the art itself. That being said, we idolize these people far too much. They are not authority figures. They are artists with opinions.
I don’t believe in censoring artwork, and I’d rather the people with radical ideologies do that shit in the open where it can be monitored rather than sit behind a curtain somewhere.
Where I also have problems are when people impose “if you consume art of a controversial artist, you’re a sh*t person.” You can consume art and not accept or absolve the artist. That being said, if you want to skip an artist’s artwork because something bothers you, that’s totally fine. You do you.
Talking about these things and acknowledging controversial topics in the open is how we grow.
To give my take before really getting into the vid, and I will edit this afterwards, I think it's a case by case. I can listen to old Mayhem even though euronymous was a massive shitelord, but I can't bring myself to listen to burzum. I can listen to old Thy Art Is Murder and Incantation, but because the old vocalists are out of the band now. It depends on the crime, whether moral or literal, the personal-ness of the music, the politics or lack thereof of the music, and if the offending member is still present.
OK, EDIT TIME: I largely agree with the video, and it's reasoning. I especially like the part on natural consequences and how dipshits think they don't exist. Overall, great video Robert, and from one lefty autistic metalhead to another, glad your channel exists.
The way you said " Crazy leftist liberal politics" made me laugh
Robert, I appreciate the conversation. I feel that nuance seems to be gone in our (Western) society. We all have things of which we are not proud. I agree that it's an individual choice (artist v art). Last night I was at the Exodus show in St. Pete, FL and I didn't care about the politics of my fellow metalheads. And we fucking rocked!
Kinda wish that tour was coming to Toronto, that line up is really cool
I love how you bring up the symbiosis between Trent/NIN. I feel the same way about Varg/Burzum, primarily because, like Trent, he is the driving force behind the message and ideology of the music.
Lots of good points raised here. Bravo!
Great video with solid points man.
I quite like listening to Burzum, but I'll never buy an album or any type of merch.
I'm an art student, I can attest that separating art from the artist is a complex thing. Indeed it gets more complicated the more you dive into it.
I love Burzums music and i would buy a shirt that has only the logo or album cover because it depicts the art of the artist and not directly at least the artist himself
For me the bottom line is this: your morals are your own, and they are valid… Just don’t IMPOSE those morals on everyone else.
Agreed
I feel it's easier to separate the art if I'm already a fan of the artist, generally I just avoid known problematic artists if I never got into them before. I do draw my lines depending on how heinous their actions were, and even the ones I choose to still listen to I stop funding. It's also important to take into account that if it's a band and the rest of the members are good people maybe their work should still be appreciated. Something I think of lately too is that we want all this dark and gnarly music but what kind of people would you expect it to come from? A lot of metal musicians have some issues, me included lol.
Had the same problem when i just found out abt you-know-who from Daughters. Like i enjoy YWGWYW but is it even fine when lyrically its hard to ignore the fact they’re pretty much abt him. Theres such a grey line to what’s ok to rlly separate the art from the artist (for me at least).
Looking at their early edgy 00's hipster song titles nowadays is like... eugh **tugs collar cartoonishly**
I remember talking to someone on a Facebook group that was hellbent on not listening to problematic bands (which I think punishing a whole band for the actions of one member is kinda stupid). They said they could always find other bands to enjoy and i asked them what if they found out that every band they enjoyed was problematic in some way. They STRAIGHT UP told me they would just stop listening to music, as there are other ways to entertain themselves, which i found pretty sad.
For me, it's easier to not listen to a "canceled" artist/band if i never liked or listened to them to begin with, like Marilyn Manson. But if I do enjoy their music, like Issues, I still listen to them, just not as frequently. It's like what i watched in a Ranterinshades video on Cancel Culture, when he used a quote from Syndrome in The Incredibles "...and when everyone's canceled, no one will be".
Yeah some people talk about art/music like it's disposable.
Like it's easy to just replace, just listen to something else.
Honestly - some art is irreplaceable, because it already means a lot to US.
It's not necessarily about our connection with the artist - but a connection between our minds/hearts and the music. We have our own personal relationship with the music.
i am not capable of this yet
All around it’s impossible to separate art from the artist with everything you can come across in a lifetime. At the same time art was never made to be this perfect “one size fits all” comfort level with all the endless ways people can express themselves. I just overall respect people who can at least challenge their views regardless of where they are on the spectrum .
Hate to be a nerd but the whole Varg comments you made are kinda off . He stabbed Euronymous 23 times not 21 times . He’s also not a “neo Nazis” he’s an Odinist / white pagan nationalist along with a mixture of other views . I’m not stating this to soften the blow of his radical views but to just simply throw the word “neo Nazis” all the the time the way you did does way more harm than good . You’re basically diminishing the impact of the word “neo Nazis”
I agree. I feel like the term nazi gets diluted nowadays. That should be reserved for third reich apologists and hitler simps. The absolute bottom of the barrel. Yes nationalism, odinism - and whatever other weird flavours of that - are firmly right wing but they don’t carry the same severity.
Varg is a piece of shit for sure but I’d argue the guys from Absurd are far worse even. Not that it’s a contest but I feel that nuance is important.
Wyatt with another W comment
@wyattxhim The first part I agree with. Second part, though… eeeeeehhhhhhh, I think you’re giving Vargy Boy a WEEEEEE too much leeway as far as his beliefs go, but… 🤷🏻♂️ If that’s what you believe, then that’s what you believe. Still love your content and I hope you’re doing great these days, bud! When’s the next video on your channel coming out?
@@wheelsofmercury how am I giving Varg too much leeway ? I literally just called him a white Pagan Nationalist. The whole racist accusations against him are still present.
I think it’s important to label thing’s correctly and notice the differences between all the political viewpoints that exist . Calling someone a neo Nazis who isn’t a neo Nazis is just doing more harm than good . It straight up diminishes the weight of the word . We need to call things out correctly and talk about things more maturely than just stating someone a “Nazis” because we don’t agree with them.
@@wyattxhim That’s fine, bud. I’ll respectfully agree to disagree. Looking forward to seeing the next video! ✌🏻🤘🏻
Also just because there is vitriolic hate inside a comment section doesnt mean that the whole comment section is vitriolic hate.
when ppl disagree with you, it is easiest to call the whole group "hateful" to further dig your heels into your current point of view. It is essentially a logical fallacy of equating the entire group with the lowest common denominator. Same ppl would never do that with Black Violent Crime or anything inconvenient for their moral crusade though
I wanna say my stance on this issue. I always separate the art from the artist, regardless of what the artist has done. If I don’t like an artist, it’s always because I personally think their art sucks ass. I don’t think enjoying Marilyn Mansons music for example is condoning disgusting behavior. The act of enjoying art is not condoning disgusting behavior.
But you've become disgusting by SUPPORTING a disgusting behavior behaver in behavememt.
My favorite band is Vektor. Yup. So anytime that gets brought up, interesting conversation follows. But I can't lie to myself about how much I love their music 🤷
If I like the sound, I’ll listen to it. I’m not threatened by differing opinions. To the band, “do you want my money or not?”
Good vid melty. For me what I can separate could be completely different than the other. For me, I’m fine listening to “sketchy” artists if the music is that good. For Example I really like Arghoslent and Grand Belial’s Key despite their horrific/edgy views for just how good the music is.
However at the same time this is just only the way I view this topic, I definitely can understand why someone would NOT listen to bands like Arghoslent and I respect that. Main thoughts overall is that I’ll be respectful of others boundaries if they can respect mine. As this REALLY isn’t a black or white thing to me and shouldn’t be treated as such.
This is a great point as with those bands, the art isn’t really separable due to problematic and horrific politics in their music in addiction to being terrible people. Grand Belial’s Key and Arghoslent are both musically gifted though with some of the best riffs in extreme metal. However, more so than anything I’ll listen to similar bands without problematic lyrics such as the Chasm, Intestine Baalism, and Dungeon Serpent.
A big problem I see with this discourse is that there are lots of double standards. The further back in time you go the more often you find musicians or artists having super problematic views or doing lots of things that are worse than just problematic. So my philosophy is if I like the music or art I listen to it. I mean we look up to the founders of our country even though lots of them literally owned slaves. Might sound like a cop out, but I honestly don't think it is
I somewhat alluded to this in the Putnam vid, but in my opinion, if an artist wants to be a piece of garbage, then they should just own it. No covering stuff up, no half-baked apology videos or backtracking statements... just freaking own it. I really can't stand it when one of these people land themselves in hot water and then they're all like "That's not who I am", when in actuality, they just revealed who they are.
For example: Hulk Hogan a few years back. Dude was caught on tape talking about how he would never want his daughter to date a black man (and he used the n word), and he releases some half-baked statement saying "I'm not racist"... dude... if you're not racist then why would you not want your daughter to date a black guy? Lmao. It's so annoying to see some of these celebs accidentally tell you the truth about who they are and then backtrack on it 3 minutes later.
That is why, even though I don't condone the behaviors of the Seth Putnams or GG Allins, I can at least respect the fact that they didn't hide who they were.
Seth & GG were absolutely insane and repulsive and gave no fucks whatsoever. Its fascinating really.
so you I guess you acknowledging to the fact that your loud and unfunny makes everything okay with your crap content ? being self aware and owning up to your faults doesnt mean people will accept you.
@@joshwest5305Humour is subjective my dude. Lots of people find my stuff funny and judging by the likes/dislikes ratio on my latest vid, lots of people accept me.
That doesn’t mean you have to though. You’re entitled to your opinion and that’s fine. Just don’t think your own opinion on my content means everyone feels the same way.
this!! if you are going to be a pile of shit don't be a hypocrite about it and OWN it. Phil Anselmo does nothing but back peddle and than repeats his behavior year after year. I have no respect for that moron and his fanboys suck his nuts over everything.
It’s harder for some bands, and others it just doesn’t matter for them. Burzum and Lostprohets are bands/artists I cannot stand for what the people have done in said bands.
And then there are bands like Mental Cruelty with the past singer and other bands similar which we or I have no problem with.
I guess it depends on what the person has done and how severe the crime or accusations were. People have different attitudes towards different things, very varied and very subjective.
Great video, and good to stay passive and hear others out for a bit. Have a great day!
Also I don’t want to mention Falling in Reverse or Ronnie Radke because of Ronnie himself…
smart
With Varg Vikernes it all fits perfectly with me: I hate the music AND the artist, so hallelujah, easy choice.
Awesome video Robert! That being said, and to keep on topic, it'd be awesome if you do a Peste Noire discography review 🤣
Some of these holier than thou website journalists seem to be happy with nothing less than a pound of flesh from Phil, all for doing one minorly stupid thing at Dimebash years and years ago at this point. It's more than a little pathetic.
they will ignore his entire life and message to focus on 15 seconds of his life that had no effect on anyone else. Phil allowed himself to be antagonized and get worked up and did immature behavior that everyone has felt before. "Oh you're gonna call me an asshole, then i'll show you an asshole!" That was the line of thinking and we are all guilty of some lame shit like that. Having that moment immortalized is bizarre though. Any bad quotes? Any bad behavior? Any evidence of racial hatred? zero? Oh, we'll still hate him anyway -__-
At the end of the day, there is not a single human being on earth you are going to agree with 100%
Big fan of Neurosis at the moment, but Scott Kelly abused his family so if I ever praise any member of the band for their contributions, y’all know who WON’T be included on that list.
OH GOD I FORGOT ABOUT THAT, yikes.
I try to seperate the art from the artist when I can. As a diehard Slipknot fan, even if Slipknot continue to fire old members without much of a reason or do super shitty things, I'm never going to stop listening to their music/love it. I think their music is the best and its impacted my life in ways that are hard to even put into words. However, it might stop me from ever getting into an artist, for example I think its fine for someone to like As I Lay Dying despite what Tim Lambesis did, however knowing that intentionally made me never want to listen to their music in the first place. And even if I did like their music, I probably wouldn't go and see them live unless I snuck in, or buy merch. At that point that is actively supporting the band financially a lot, versus streams which don't really do much, and that goes beyond just, 'I like their art" imo. Maybe this is a hot take but just what I believe.
Burzum is my favorite band, Varg is not my favorite person by lightyears
Good video dude.
After watching the entire video, I can comfortably say you hit every point right on the money. At least in my opinion, but it’s all opinions that is of course at the core of this conversation. We can debate art quality or political beliefs all day long but it’s all subjective in the end.
Good video Robert 👍
Good video Robert. You should review every burzum album
Thats a good idea I've definitely never done that before not even as an April Fools joke.
This might be one of your best videos yet, Robert! Hopefully this whole comment section stays sane.
It’s a rather thorny topic, isn’t it? When you find out one of your favourite bands have an abuser or a shitty person in its ranks, what do you do? This is what I went through with Issues back in 2020 when they kicked out their singer Tyler Carter for allegations of sexual assault and grooming of underage victims. Not gonna lie: I stopped listening to Issues for a month after that whole thing broke. But I slowly learned to separate the art he made with the band with him as a person and now I can enjoy albums like the self titled album from 2014 and Beautiful Oblivion from 2019. Fast forward to today, and I am somewhere in between Quest for Metal and Wyattxhim (to compare myself to other metal TH-camrs) as far as separating the art from the artist is concerned. Melodically, I really have end up liking some sketchy artists in the past couple of years despite their lyrics being… well, pretty SUS. Nokturnal Mortum is a band from Ukraine that is pretty talented instrumentally, but because they’ve gone back-and-forth and back-and-forth with a certain hateful ideology originating from Germany and Italy that Ukraine has unfortunately had a dark history with, it pretty much complicates my relationship with the music. I would never buy any physical copies of their stuff nor get any patches for my jacket-even if their 2009 album The Voice of Steel is one of the best progressive Viking black metal albums I’ve ever heard (and Metal Trenches will agree with me on that one!). Am I a hypocrite? Maybe. But I’ve learned that I don’t have to agree with the lyrics to like the music.
Nokturnal Mortum is great musically. The Voice of Steel is my favorite album of theirs and it contains no sketchy lyrics. I feel like Knjaz Varggoth may or may not hold those views nowadays since NM has played at Asgardrei, but he doesn’t put them in his music after Nechrist.
@@mindful2864 I hate to say that you are incorrect, but… their 2005 album called Weltanschaaung for the English version that was released in 2006 still has those thoughts and beliefs in the lyrics. I listen to the original 2005 Ukrainian version, though… And it is still a very well composed album despite the lyrics!
@@wheelsofmercury I’ve heard some people say that Weltanschauung is sketchy and some say that it isn’t. I’m not too sure and it’s mostly up to interpretation. There is some unpleasant lyrics regarding Slavic people but unlike on Nechrist, there’s no promotion of full blown nazism. However I do know that Goat Horns, the Voice of Steel, and Verity contain no sketchy lyrics.
The Phil thing, is and has been the biggest thing for years. Phil is one of my vocal hero’s.
I will state, that what he’s said I DO NOT CONDONE.
I have been a Pantera fan for years, and yet I’m really over them as I’ve beaten that horse to death.
I’m more likely going to to listen to Down than anything Phil does, because it’s a much better version of him. I get the hate for him and I won’t argue it.
I think this video is one of the best I’ve seen you do in awhile. Been a subscriber for awhile and that’s never gonna change. Well done Robert 🤘🏻
Cool video. I like the content and the arguments. Even if I don't agree with them. Purrfect. Thumbs up. Thank you for posting it and thank you for the discussion.
Not gonna say the name of the band because i don't want to stain their name, but i stopped to listening because certain stuff that one of the members said. But the reality is: my problem is only with that person, not the whole band. The other bandmates are not to blame of that and while i hated what that person said i still recognize the contributions made by the artist (their records played a big role in my life). Also, they are humans too. In other words, it's forgivable and not that bad compared with other stuff we see on internet.
The main issue is that, a lot of people care too much about what others think. There is no reason to be overly invested in what someone does with their own time. Music is subjective, people like to ignore that.
Excellent video dude.
I'll admit I still listen to old Kanye, but the way I picture is, the Kanye from College Dropout absolutely would disagree with and hate the current psychotic iteration of Kanye.
He would and its crazy that a lot of his fans dont see that lmao
What I took from the video. Is the matter is a grey area.
Just list all the male artists guilty of violence towards women and or abusive to women. For a lot of big hitters in rock and metal, large numbers of artists would be blacklisted.
I think it’s important that people can learn and be better. It’s then up to the buying audience to decide if they want to allow that and or accept they’ve changed.
People in metal have killed in their teen years and served their full sentences.
I personally think if they’ve served their time, I am willing to allow them to rehabilitate themselves. Unless they glorify or try to monetise the case.
I guess where I draw the line are bands that promote politics I dislike. As the music is a reflection of who they are and what their mindset is.
It helps with Pantera I always thought, they were a bunch of dicks and let’s face it, Phil wasn’t the only one with racist views in that band.
That side of the augment about artists whose art is intrinsically tied to them, I think can also apply to Linkin Park, because when I think back on those lyrics and Chester's unfortunate fate, it really does feel like he was begging for help, and now I just can't separate the lyrics from the tragedy.
I would also like to mention that I don't feel that Marilyn Manson is the same kind of controversy magnet as Kanye is, like it just feels like Kanye is simultaneously spiraling out of control and also just doing it for attention while Manson was making an actual statement (at one point anyway), but that is a conversation for a different day I think.
Almost every person have done or said something stupid or even illegal, so it’s a case by case thing for me and to be honest, sometimes it depends on how much I like the music and/or how long I’ve been listening before finding out what they did.
As an avid music listener & actual ANTI-politic type, I can tell you I don’t care, like at all about most (of any) of the ‘personal life drama’ bs, as I just like the songs & don’t look into personal lives as in my adult/father/intelligent human view, just because someone’s famous doesn’t make them a role model. They won’t pay my bills & so on, so I don’t care about them personally, nor try to learn about them aside from enjoying the music.
People Gon’ people, Robert! I feel like you were pretty overall even & just, my opinion is not to worry so much about other people & if you don’t like what they do, don’t do it yourself. It’s like a lesson what not to do, say.
I really appreciate your thoughts on this topic, I myself agree with your opinions in regards to the idea of separating the art from the artist. Hell, I have a few examples of my own I'd love to share.
Firstly, I really do like the idea behind the video and the questions that it brings up in me in regards to the musicians that I love. It makes me take another look at music and artists I choose to support and what I personally feel about not only the art but the people behind it who make what I really enjoy.
I remember when I learned about the far right bullshit that Michael Graves started to promote in his solo live shows, I personally found it really hard to stomach because despite it being more 'easily accessible' in comparison to the work Danzig did with The Misfits I really enjoy what he did in the nineties with them. It felt really fun and the production really helped out the sound. I still will hold a place in my heart for both Famous Monsters and American Psycho, but I would rather be found dead than openly support Michael Graves' Neo Nazi tom fuckery.
Another that comes to mind is when Pat O'Brian was arrested for the bones and guns that were found in his house after a fire broke out. Again the conflicted feelings came cause I loved the guitar work he did for Cannibal Corpse to that point. Now I am more at peace with it since I have my own fascinations with the macabre.
I really loved the music that The Casualties put out, they really helped me get into more intense sounding punk music. A while ago I learned that the lead vocalist Jorge Herrera was convicted recently to some SA back in the 90's and again I had to try and see if I would continue listening to the music. He has since left the band and after formed his own that covers the songs he wrote. They have a new vocalist that does a great job and still writes good tunes.
I guess what I am trying to say with these longer winded opinions is that I try to see if there's any connection between the person in question who made the music and it within the lyrics, in some instances I can still enjoy the music like The Casualties I had mentioned, because there's no real connection to the idea of the vocalists crime and the vocals mentioned so I am able to make the disconnect. But in the instance of Michael Graves or to piggy back off of an artist you had mentioned Kanye West, I still struggle to find a good reason to listen to their music when others inspired by the music that they have created do it just as good if not better (Blitzkid to give another horror punk example). That doesn't even go into the topic of artists that I want to dive deeper into but learn more about them and are iffy on diving deeper on what I learn (Guttermouth to give an example, while a lot of their music is tongue in cheek for their brand of anarchic-punk, I don't know how I feel about their lyrical content sometimes.) I really appreciate the video and the topics mentioned. Hope you have a good day and thank you for reading this if you do read the entire thing!
I won't separate the art from the artist if the artist is clearly hateful, abusive and dangerous to others, especially if it's clear that they choose to be hateful and abusive while using their art as a platform to uphold their dangerous ideas as ideals. I know some people have an easier time with it through pirating and stuff but I'm not that person. It gets a lot more complicated if there are many artists who don't hold the same opinions, or if there's something more insidious like drug abuse, or otherwise have issues that are more self-destructive than anything. I draw the line when it comes to hurting others (either literally or ideologically), because as someone who tried to destroy herself so many times there's a difference between being an awful person because you don't know what to do with yourself and being an awful person because you genuinely believe that certain people are lesser than. No one is a perfect idol, we shouldn't even pretend that there's such a thing (even in the Vocaloid community - years ago, a Korean character was pulled from shelves when her voice provider was found out to be involved in blackmail, so even companies enforce how we separate the art from the artist and to what extent). There's just people and some of them are more hurtful than others, sometimes they can be held accountable and other times they're set in their ways.
Let´s face it:
This "seperating the art from the artist talk" is just the excuse for going on to enjoy certain music, even though we heared that the persons making it also did / said / propagated something shitty.
As a heavily political person i always tried to avoid liking problematic artists, and yes, this works, everybody has some control over what they like or not, or at least over what they expose themselves to or not. At least that´s what i think. Still i´ve stumbeled across some instances as well. Like:
Deep Purple - more specifically David Coverdales Lyrics. A very importnat band for me, making me fall in love with rock music at all way back when, but when i began to understand his lyrics - it took a while longer as i´m not an english native speaker - somehow i could not enjoy this anymore. I mean: the line "You got to love me when i want you to" as sung in "Hold on" on "Strombringer" is just too far out. And it´s not that this was one slip, and that´s it, no, you can find the attitude all through his work, also with Whitsnake, which also i did like. However - David Coverdale - canceled for me.
Another Case study would be Pink Floyd or Roger Waters, who said some weird things about Israel and Russia, some things i don´t agree with, still by understandig his personality and trauma as far as understandable by meditation on the depths of his work, i can disagree and still enjoy his work.
Then we have Vektor, which is still a complicated case for me. There must be something weird having happened, still i don´t see any of it proven, and i fuckin love "Terminal Redux". Yes, i´m close to calling it my favourite thrash metal album ever. So ... I don´t want to drop it without proof and still my enjoyment of this has just diminished, for it always leaves kind of a weird taste in my mouth.
Another example having nothing to do with music at all would be Immanuel Kant who said some extremely important and unmeasurably valuable things about different philosophical topics, but never dig into his race theory, which is pure racism and nothing else! So i value one, but not the other, even this works sometimes.
I feel like some people should just hide what they believe, because if you know it’ll piss somebody off, don’t say it.
I will collaborate with on Live Listen Erased and we will talk something similar to this topic.
Think there should be a hierarchy to the severity of which you can ultimately seperate the art of from the start, or vice versa. A very loaded topic, but I believe if you commit the most heinous of atrocities no matter how the music how strong the music is or how its resonates.. you should set your moral standard above all and everything, but of course *imo*. The more tame of personal flaws shouldn't sway your love for a band or artist's music.
As a massive fan of Kanye's music, it pains me to see where he's gone on his journey. I can still listen to his earlier material just fine, but whatever his next project holds, I'm not eagerly anticipating. I don't wish to see him live anymore like I did when I was younger, won't buy merch and if he spews anything even remotely nazi sympathizing on his future offerings, he won't get a single stream or TH-cam view from me. That bs has to go and all of his various, deranged "slavery was a choice" nonsense.
Not ready to make nice is a really great song from the chicks.
a classic girlboss anthem and a consistent karaoke great.
Deathspell omega was something different for me when i learnt about Mikko aspa. However, learning that all he really was was just a studio musician and nothing more and that he didnt write or do anything other then do vocals i could accept the band in my own way. Deathspell omega is extremely unique and i didnt really want to stop listening to a band because there is one bad apple in the group. Buying their stuff is something im still contemplating personally.
Tbh though are we all gonna stop watching films that we love? Especially from a certain company called miramax? Those are classics..... Pulp Fiction, Good Will Hunting, No Country for Old men... list goes on and on.
Honestly, thought that CJ McCreery would appear in this video
5:23 irregarardless is not a word it made me whince, that is all thank you.
"Is irregardless a word? Yes. It may not be a word that you like, or a word that you would use in a term paper, but irregardless certainly is a word. It has been in use for well over 200 years, employed by a large number of people across a wide geographic range and with a consistent meaning." - Merriam-Webster
@@themetalmeltdownofficial no
@@Dennisrader-ff9gv Yes, unless you want to suggest you know more about language and speech than a literal dictionary lmao
@@themetalmeltdownofficial why not just use regardless? "Irregardles" makes you sound like you are tying to use big words. Just stop, it is uncommon and not a word simply because you can speak it.
@@themetalmeltdownofficial I am the word police, sooo there's that. ✋🏻 halt stop speaking this (not) word.👮🏻
I’m a rightist, I don’t agree with the politics of most of the groups I listen to. If I like you, I’ll listen to it.
I went to a show of leftists that were opposed to capitalism. I had a lot of fun.
The Pantera reunion has had disastrous consequences on the music industry
Now I see folks are talking about getting linkin park together with a new singer
Just no….
Props for taking on such a controversial topic. It’s definitely a nuanced issue that I’m sure will receive a lot of dullard incel energy in your comments section lol for me it’s sort of an inverse relationship between my love for the band and the severity of the allegations. So there’s a lot of subjectivity there. I personally have a zero tolerance policy for sexual assault but murder and arson isn’t a necessarily a deal breaker. I know the cognitive dissonance bells are ringing but that’s why it’s so difficult to come to any black and white conclusion. So yeah Manson can go fuck himself but I still can’t seem to shake my love of early Burzum and dissection.
Honestly everyone is pretty chill, very little weirdness so far. Lots of good conversation.
I honestly think that the stuff CJ said was actually quite tame and that there is real damage in sitting here and pretending that he said ''Horrible henious criminal'' stuff he was basically expressing worry about exposure of sexual topics to extremely young children (IE 5-6 year olds) I think thats a valid concern and I in no way have anything against anybody LGTBQ at all and Im fairly certian that CJ doesnt either. I really think that is why the fans are so mad at the band, its not because theyre bigots its because the band betrayed CJ out of cancellation fear instead of standing by what were actually just a persons honest opinion. That being said the band is free to fire and hire whoever they please and we cant control that and we dont want to.
what he said wasn't tame. It was lucid and packed with truth. The ppl who are cancelling him are truly low level scum in multiple ways. They too need our love, but ruining a man's career and livelihood and reputation for that is patently pathetic. Makes me sad.
Look at the content. Thats what I do. If x reason not to listen to x artist is a part of the content, i dont listen. If its not, I listen.
I like Marilyn Manson people shun me for it. I tell them to kick rocks. Because I like the music. The person behind it though?.... Mmmm, never met him, so I don't know.
Sometimes shit people make good art. Simple.
My general stance is that if you don't agree with an artist or their actions, don't support them. I'm not saying you can't listen to and enjoy their music, but don't give them money. For example, my favorite band released my favorite album and I've purchased it in the form of a CD and vinyl, as well as their albums digitally and some other merch from the band. Recently, it has come to light that the vocalist has "serious criminal allegations" against him. They may not be a band anymore anyways, but I would no longer purchase their music, buy their merch, go to their shows and so on. But I will still absolutely listen to the music I already have from them. I just don't understand how people like Chris Brown can still have a booming career given what he did. I could never fathom actively supporting someone that I either think is an absolute monster, or with someone I completely morally disagree with.
Haven't watched the video yet but I'll throw my two cents in: I definitely feel that it's a very personal decision and people shouldn't be chastised if they feel comfortable or not listening to the music of a horrible person. For me, a large part of it is whether the music reflects the actions/ideologies of the artist. For example, I find it hard to listen to Marilyn Manson today because so much of his music was about being grossly sexual. I just can't stomach listening to it after learning that it wasn't just an act. But I wouldn't harass anyone that still enjoys his music as long as they can acknowledge that he was/is a sack of shit. On the other side I don't find it difficult to listen to Kanye because his music wasn't about him being a Nazi or any of the other crazy stuff he's said in the last year or so. In that case, I am able to separate him from his music because the music and the artist feel like they represent different beliefs in my mind. But if someone cant find it in themselves to do the same, that's none of my business. As long as we can call out shitty people and the idiots that support their actions and ideologies, I don't care what anyone listens to.
Some things to add after watching the video:
I should have specified that I believe that streaming someone's music doesn't financially support them in a large enough way to be morally questionable but buying official merch and records of a shitty person should definitely be called out. Even if you really love the music, you can buy bootleg merch, vinyl, etc.
Also it's pretty funny how I used Manson and Kanye as examples before even watching the video but you used them for an entirely different argument.
I agree with you about how the music of a solo artist is a direct reflection of their persons but I think that, for example, College Dropout doesn't feel like a reflection of the current Kanye. Similarly I don't think old Clapton or Morrissey songs reflect who those people are today. Or at least the music doesn't explicitly say it supports those beliefs that the artist would eventually publicly support so I as a listener can at least not think about it while listening to the music. In this case I would never support the music by buying merch or records or going to shows but I personally don't feel uncomfortable listening to the music. For me, listening to an album doesn't mean I agree with it's messages although that can affect my enjoyment of it. It's a complicated and interesting issue that I think each person has a different perspective on. That's why it's so fun to discuss (as long as everyone can keep it civil)
I pretty much follow exactly what you say here when it comes to this topic. Good example for a band that I absolutely cannot separate the music from the artist would be Iced Earth and Jon Schaffer's involvement with the Jan 6th 2021 capitol attacks. I still have not listened to a single Iced Earth song since then because I refuse to listen to music written by a now literal terrorist.
I go with the theory that I don't really want to meet any musicians from bands I like. I'd just rather not meet them to find out they're a huge tool. As for separating the art fromt eh artist I still listen to Iced Earth, one of my favorite bands. I'll freely admit not being there I don't know exactly what went down, story changes depending which side talks about it. So I just go with Jon put himself in a bad situation, but the music is good. Whether I'd listen to something new by them, yes if it's good. And frankly their output hasn't been that strong post Barlow's original departure anyway. Then again you have bands with members who get caught trying to off someone or trying to find someone who is less than legal to hook up with. Thankfully among my favorite bands I can't think of anyone who has done any of these acts, but at least the ones I'm familiar with mostly got rid of those members, except I believe it's As I lay dying? I don't know metalcore band I don't listen to and definitely wouldn't now. I suppose this is my long winded way of agreeing that it's up to the individual to decide for themselves.
Seperateing the art and the artist can be done and I don't think it's a bad thing to not consume media by artists you find problematic the problem is when it becomes some sort of litmus test of wether you are good person or not if you choose to still choose to consume the media of said problematic artist.
As you mentioned with Varg, it’s a spectrum. I can still enjoy music from people I have a strong disagreement with. But a convicted murderer and neo-Nazi is too much for me to look past. But there are other bands that maybe I don’t like a stance they have so I won’t support them monetarily with merch or going to shows, but I’ll still listen to their music on streaming and enjoy it. It’s a very personal line that is different for everyone. I tend to be pretty lenient - but there is definitely a line I won’t cross.
I’ll be honest. I’ve done that with Iced Earth. I still respect Jon as a player and writer, plus I’ve just been a huge fan for far too long to quit listening to music that matters to me.
They’ve been mid for 20 years now and peaked Night of the Stormrider, the only album I go back to
@@mylerwilson4879 It is my favorite album, so I agree to a point.
This is one of those cases when I want to say so much about the matter, that I would have to write an essay here😅🤣 So, for now, I just tell you how I feel about Burzum 🤣
I agree that it's easier to separate the art from the artist when only one band member is a bad person. Pretty much impossible with Burzum. 😅😆 However, I always know about controversy and I still gave that band a shot, back in the day at the beginnig of my black metal journey. I was like "So many people love this band so much that they don't care about any other stuff that Varg did. Maybe the music is really that good."
And quess what, I still didn't liked it 😅🤣 (I love black metal but not that dark ambient stuff...)
Depends on what wrong the artist does. If an artist has opinions and actions that are somewhat redeemable and the artist does apologize, it's absolutely okay.
Some artists are just unforgivable and should be boycotted, examples of that are Varg Vikernes, David Draiman and some others.
Great video Robert! It's hard for my wife to separate the art from the artist because she loves the music so much that they become one in the same, which I can see her point. For me, I have a much easier time because I have a much different view on the matter..
Take Staind for example, yes, we all know Aaron Lewis is a right wing, red hatted, racist douchbag.. but Mike, Johnny, and Sal are so good and wonderful, that I'm able to latch onto them and separate Aaron from the music...
However, this does not work if the entire band is awful.
And Rap and Hip-Hop fans have absolutely NO argument in this debate since %90 of all rappers and hip-hop artists are terrible people..
I really like the band Acheron, 1960s band Coven, Mortician, and Trouble . Both Acheron and Coven are openly Satanic, and Trouble's lyrics were Christian based. Mortician sing about slasher movies in graphic detail. I am a Horror movie fan, but I am not particularly religious. I like the music, but I don't agree, disagree, or really care about what they choose to do with their free time
I don't agree with just about everyone politically. When it comes to media, I think knowing the creator and their intent can help add context, possibly interest to a work.
Having a fondness for a media doesn't mean you have to endorse the creator's ideals .
I really think the whole thing could be summed up to regular people should be patient with each other and have a bit of understanding and open mind when someone likes something rather than paint them with a broad brush.
Like the new Pantera run. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't interested in Zakk Wylde handling Dimebag's amazing riffs. I have a Motorhead tribute album that has Phil doing Ace of spades, but that's not the reason I bought the album.
I think it's perfect to like or dislike something for any reason as long as you don't cause harm to another person
If I wouldn’t feel comfortable handing a musician cash to buy a record in person then I don’t stream it in a way they will profit. Being online we often forget that by listening to music through streaming services we are still giving the artist money and supporting them PERSONALLY. As much as one can separate the two on moral grounds, it doesn’t work that with with your money. Your money is not going to burzum, it’s going to varg. Listening to burzum is financially supporting varg and (considering he is quite an “active” neo-nazi) the horrible things he stands for. I use him as an extreme example which I am not comfortable with, most controversies I can look past if the artist does appear remorseful.
I genuinely enjoy A.C. but Seth Putnam is not someone I would invite to my barbecue. Even now.
Seth the type of guy to bring malt liquor and fig newtons to the family BBQ and then get kicked out for tryna fight somebody
Cool video about a complex subject! I massively agree that, in some cases, you shouldn't try to separate them. You mentioned NIN, but Devin Townsend springs to mind and also Naplam Death, RATM, etc.
I always thought Phil Anselmo was an absolute prick, and his actions have only reinforced this. Luckily I am not the biggest fan of Pantera anyway, so I just continue not to listen to them 😂
unless the artist makes prejudiced music, or isnt perticulariy problematic i will still listen to their music. i wont listen to nsbm, melevolent creation past retrobution or burzum but pantera and megadeth are just fine
I think that everyone, not just metalheads, should take the time to learn about cultivation theory. Contrary to what reactionaries might tell you, this is not the same as Jack Thompson saying that violent video games make you violent. Rather, it's about the cultivation and normalisation of ideas in our culture. Like it or not, all art is political, in the sense that it reflects cultural norms and standards.
As much as I used to love Manowar, one of the bands that got me into Power Metal, I can't with a good conscience listen to "Hail and Kill" anymore when "R*pe their women as they cry" is sung like they're supposed to sound like badasses. Much of their work is toxic masculinity defined, and their artwork should be used in media literacy class to show how, often in low fantasy artwork, women are depicted as subservient sex objects to men who are huge, tough and muscular.
Does this mean that Eric Addams or Joie Demaio are raving misogynists who think we should all go out to r*pe and pillage the next village over? Of course not. But the idea of this being a dark male power fantasy, which we're expected to sing along to, should without a doubt be questioned. Thus, when we listen, buy or generally promote a musician's music, we have to consider this: What ideas are we giving a platform to, and to what extent are these ideas treated as normal?
I don't think ANY form of NSBM should be promoted or tolerated in the slightest, because Fascist ideology gets trans people like myself killed. It's an ideology of hate, and so I don't think laughing it off as "just another opinion" is acceptable. The existence of queer people or any human life should never be up for debate.
Though to balance out this little rant of mine, I do want to bring up the controversy around Dave Elifson, formally of Megadeth. He was the victim of revenge porn. He was having a sexual encounter with a young (but still of age) woman, and was filmed without his consent. For that, he was punished. Maybe I don't have all the information, but whether or not you think a 40+ year old guy should be having sexual relations with a 19 or 20 year old is a borderline case - one which I'm not going to discuss here. I bring up the situation to put cultivation theory into practice: What ideas are we normalising here, and who is harmed by what took place?
I like Pantera's albums too but I wouldn't go see them now. I see videos of their shows now and I was not impressed
I do for the most part believe in separating the art from the artist. With that being said, one instance in which I personally can’t separate the art from the artist is Blood on the Dance Floor, purely because it comes off as a direct reflection of Dahvie’s degeneracy. This is a guy who actively preyed on his teenage fans, and sings about stuff like sexting, and some fuckin weird fantasies involving ice cream. The music is still bad even without that, but if not for the shit Dahvie has done, I could at least pass it off as some desperate attempt at being vulgar and edgy.
Being right wing I find myself having to do this often, alot of the bands I like prob hate me especially bands like cattle decapitation and napalm death but i dont care I dig the music
They would only hate you if they saw being right wing as automatically "hateful".
I'm sure you can still find a lot to agree on and connect over.
"You should separate the art from the artist!"
"You mean I should put aside my love for the art to condemn and withdraw support from the artist?"
"No, not that kind, the kind that still makes people money!"
That's kind of my issue with this whole thing, it's constantly framed as a lazy, kneejerk response from people simply waiving any responsibility for supporting awful people with their consumption habits, as if it's an objective truth that art is completely disconnected from the artist. You can't really separate art from artist when they're directly profiting from your consumption and promotion of their work, after all.
On a personal level, even when not providing support to the artist, having a niggling voice in the back of my head going "hey remember that shitty thing this artist did?" while listening just makes for an unpleasant experience.
My take on separated art from artist is simple. Yes you can. No matter what. The people in your favortie bands are not your friends. You don't have to care about what they do or think. And if you give money to an artist, all that says about you is that you enjoy their music. I do enjoy Falling In Reverse and recognized that Ronnie isn't the best person. I think what Ian Watkins did is undescribable, but I think Lostprophets are one of the best from the 2000s. And I'm not saying that to excuse myself from listening to problematic artists. For an example I think Melanie Martinezes music is so boring I could honestly care less about what she was accused of doing. Also when talking about this subject, no one brings up good people who make bad music. I remember watching an interview with Dan Reynolds of Imagine Dragons in 2015 supporting LGBT rights and people still shit talk their music.
Since i found out chris barnes is a vegan i can no longer support 6 feet under, i am a butcher by trade i work in a meat locker and i just cannot support a vegans art it goes against my morals.
Mate, what sort of logic is this?
Next thing, you don’t like carcass because of your stupid belief
My really simple take? It is case by case, but if it is something I don't support (bigotry, authoritarianism, etc) I won't buy from them or consume their media, but once they're dead and gone it's fair game, HP Lovecraft is my example? Money ain't going in the coffin y'know? I'll buy Burzum records once Varg kicks the bucket.
You could listen to their music illegally. That would stick it to 'em! 😂
HP Lovecraft is nowhere near as "evil." As normies say. You can read his letters and it's clear that he is a product of his time and family culture, and he's not bad at all by his contemporary standards. Especially towards the end of his life it's clear he's barely a bigot by today's standards. The pearl clutching based off of a quote from a letter and a cat name are immature as hell. He's essentially hillbilly from the late 1800s. His views are pretty tame for how they would be expected to be. HP contributed a huge amount to art as a whole.
Depends if the artist puts a disturbing message in his art. I mean, if his music or lyrics promotes racism, overt sexism or homophobia, I'm not interested. I can't tell myself it's "okay" when it stands against what I believe in.
Remember how much artists actually make from streaming… you wont be making them rich i promise