I abandoned my Christian beliefs in my 20s after I had come to believe that the biblical stories were just silly fairy tales that only naive or desperate people could believe. I was unaware that I had such a childlike understanding of the stories until I started watching your videos. I'm still spinning and confused about most of it, but I sit here today a believer, thanks in part to you, Jonathan. I will be forever grateful. ❤
Appreciating mythology and the archetypes of human history is not the same as literally believing in miracles that didn’t happen, like a virgin birth. But what does the story mean? What can we learn from it?
Merci Jonathan, frere orthodoxe, pour ton travail dans les écritures, histoire ect, pour la connaissance des textes ici et l'intuition qui vient d'en haut, a 72 ans j'ai aussi l'esperance et ne crains point.... Rabbouni est un fin strategoi
I saw this when it came on Seraphim's Chanel and got excited thinking this was a new collaboration of you 2 lol i sure hope you both get to do more in the hrar future, as you make a symbolism golden duo😂❤
Big time. The exodus story is probably the most universal story because we are all exiles from heaven. Pretty much all flood stories are stories of washing away of corruption into the new. Chaos into order. Insufficiency of reason the tower of babel. Stories of nomadic peoples into settled peoples which is all over the Bible from Jacob(Famer) and Esau(Nomad), the exodus, the Babylonian captivity and the battles between them.
this is a good point, and it's one of the reasons he remains my favorite youtube guy you see a lot of frustration from the hardcore Orthodox guys, like, "why don't you show your true power and start evangelizing more". They don't realize that Pageau's humble approach is what attracts secular people, and probably converts many more in the long run.
So as a Lutheran who fell away from the Church, and I do mean Church because I never totally fell away from my belief in God, I just wanted to say thank you to Jonathan. I can say that it was listening first to Jordon Peterson, who then led me over to Jonathan, and it was really Listening to Jonathan that lit a fire under me again and prompted me to start going back to church. I just want to say a big thank you! Being closer to God and being apart of Church again has been a very big blessing in my life lately 🙏. Lol Even if its not the Orthodox Church..... Though it's very interesting because I have been noticing some changes in what Our Pastor has been doing in our Church and saying..... I feel in away like we are very much moving in a "Orthodox" direction. Our particular Lutheran Church has always been very conservative (though technically we used to be apart of the more "Liberal" denomination, we recently split and are part of the NALC now 🤷🏻♀️) We are far more traditional in that we use old liturgical practice (which I love). We practice confession and celebrate Eucharist every Sunday, as well as allowing children to partake in Communion as soon as Baptism has happened. When my dad was growing up they didn't do confession and only had communion once a month, and you could not take communion until you completed confirmation. I find it very interesting that we seem to be moving back towards more traditional practices. It's a good feeling.
But Christ established (with Apostles) a real Church, happened in physical world in time and space, so... Why not pursue what happened back then and there and what followed later, what apostles did church-wise, go deeper, cheking students of apostles and etc And there is so so so much material available in this regard, original sources, writings, it will take some time, true, a year or two, but... You won't believe how important that pursuit is until you find it out and believe. By won't believe I mean - I can tell you why is it important, you may have heard it gazillion of times, but believing it is another thing
i am willing to admit where i was wrong. i had a frustrating relationship with the christian integration of pagan concepts from pre-christian europe. who knows why in the final analysis, but i guess i kind of picked up a too-rousseauian noble-savage, view of christian conversion. i would readily use language like "christians stole X concept from Y," when in reality, cultural conversions and assimilations are rarely that simplistic. even though i sometimes get frustrated by christians and christian concepts, please know that i deeply appreciate your work. i'm something of a symbol interpreter myself, and i think your work, though foreign to me, is extremely important and illuminating.
There is a book by Christopher Crossan called Children of the Magi: A Sacred History of the Kurds and the Persians that brings the Kurds and Persians into universal history.
Hey Jonathan, have your read the novel "Wise Blood" by Flannery O'Connor? It has the strangest symbolism I've ever seen in a fiction novel and she was a Catholic so I know there is lots of religious layers. I immediately wanted to know if you had read it once I finished.
Hey, JD. Mind if I interject? What is the premise about? What is so strange about it, is it the setting or the characters? Have a good weekend. Thanks for the attention.
Vimal, The premise is about a preachers kid turned atheist back from the war, and he goes to a town and starts the Church without Christ to spite religious people and try to prove to himself he doesn’t feel guilt. That’s the bare bones, there’s tons of other layers and side plots and it’s just so strange and hard to parse out.
I believe Dante saw st. Peter as a new Aeneas founding a new Rome which is the church. In Assyrian and Chaldean lore there's a belief that they're the descendats of Ninveh that were converted by Jonah and they have the feast of Jonah to celebrate it. Armenians with the sons of Noah after the flood at mount Ararat. The Kurds have a lore with the Medes. There was a huge attempt by missionries to like FN/Native Americans to the lost tribes of Israel. Of course Ethiopian lore with Solomon and Sheba. In Baha'i lore they allign the sons of Abraham's third wife or concubine some scholars argue Keturah. And of course Arab lore with Ishameal.
Armenian Ararat story... You know what's funny - they called that mountain Ararat in late 1800s... (old armenian name for it is quite different) Many theories existed about Ararat - that mountain being Ararat is one of them, it could have been Caucasus (bigger mountain), could have been in Iran, could have been other mountains in lesser Caucasus (north Armenia) (and these theories were existent and discussed thorough centuries. That mountain currently called Ararat being Ararat was tool used for national identity building of Armenian people freed from Islamic captivity (both of Iran and Turkey)
How does the conversation about feet fit with the angels with six wings and one set covering their feet? That would be fascinating to understand. (For me, anyway)
I would say few have guts to go into the territory of how FN/native americans and the rebirth of modern Israel fit into universal history. Both are stories of nomadic peoples into settled peoples and the battles between these peoples which is all over the Bible from Jacob(Famer) and Esau(Nomad), the exodus, the Babylonian captivity and the fact that St. Paul mentions the Scythians a nomadic people in the body of Christ.
"Trying to show literary patterns in scripture, in a way to discount the historicity of it" this is a great example of "the flip" or how the inversion inverts itself. When we're taught patterns are "mere stories" or whatever and therefore false, we unknowingly use the very Truth of something to discredit it... and from that point the cat is out of the bag, the jig is up, the Truth becomes obvious when everything is deconstructed, the true patterns are plain to see at the bottom of the scientific worldview is re-enchantment
I can’t wait until my other Christian friends and family get on board with this way of seeing the world. Until then I guess I’ll just be the crazy guy spouting nonsense.
Though china does not have strong gospel influence due to the regime issue, we have the old legendary traced back to the beiginning of the Chinese ancestors. According to the old chinese legendary, we had the record of flood poured down from the sky. We even had the "Goddess" created us from dust and breathed us alive. Behold, that "Goddess" saved our ancestor from that flood through sacrificing us by her own body to patch the hole in the sky. That "Goddess" was half serpent, half female, having the name of "NvWa"(soudns familiar? YWHW). I strongly believe our chinese old legendary has been deeply modified and twistted by the serpent at the very beginning of our memory. That's why there were and are so much tragedies on that land... God Bless
Jonathan, when you point out that you don’t agree with much that could be heretical in Kastrup but want the non materialistic common ground, do you think this is more of a cathecal and pastoral issue? If so, doesn’t that require addressing state pressure, ideologies in the clergy, and extra ecclesiastical influence from academia and NGO’s? And won’t that involve those who unlike you want to leverage Neoplatonism for gender and don’t cede that Origen was heretical, like David Bentley Hart and those who bring him up, and those who wish to leverage Bulkagov and Berdyaev, which includes many of Vervaeke’s thinkers like Corbin on The Imaginal issue that has great potential as well as great danger. And won’t that become a greater influence as apostate priests strive for ecumenical reunion with Rome, green theology, and the great influence Vervaeke and colleagues will have on academia over the next decades in addition to Christians reciprocally reconstructing on this model. I’m not judging you or calling you a heretic, but coming from the secular side of this and knowing those thinkers I don’t think we can be naive and some big caveats and outright addressing of these things seems necessary.
Maybe but this is where people equally like Mr. Hamilton in this video or the Dyer's and other Orthodox Christians will help people (via the online arena) to stay focused on the Church aspect and not get carried away with Neoplatonism. Fr. Stephen De Young and others like him or other good ones.
@@larryjake7783 Yes for sure. Being at church and a good spiritual father, but it should be publicly hashed out and it’s connections to Origenism as well as the modern temptation to fall into that. I lean a bit more to the traditionalists but never heard anything I didn't like from Fr Stephen, he's great. Have a great Holy Week.
Hey Ac, would you write a description of the Trojan horses you see being "gifted" to the Church? You see where this is going-"if another comes in his own name, him you will receive." Do what you can to shine a light on this stuff. Have a wonderful Holy Week! God bless
@@andrewpirr You too, hope Holy Week is going good. The biggest issues are ecumenism and natural, and process theism. Especially here with Origenism of the type espoused by David Bentley Hart which throws out the ecumenical councils and patristics for intellectual ideas. It’s an especially big temptation here because by throwing out the literal OT grounded elements of the Bible which Christ preached and drew upon ( and yes there is discernment on certain parts being symbolic only) one can link up with science and psychology today and have our religion justified on their terms. However, this means you don’t truly believe in it and heretical ideas get in along with an overarching spiritual evolutionism whose presuppositions end in changing Christ’s Church into a universalism or something like Chardin’s Gnostic ideas to transcend Christ and our bodies for “the cosmic Christ” (see Fr Rose’s chapter on Chardin in Orthodox Survival Course.) You see those ideas with green theology right now and Yale and their ecumenist Religion and Ecology courses, and the same ideas push the LGBTQ agenda and left wing politics. There are multiple NGO’s like Arcus and Fordham (listed in Rachel Wilson’s substack and conversation on institutional capture with Dyer) spending millions to influence religions in this direction. One such institution has something like $36 million dedicated just to Ibrahimic religions. You see Constantinople moving in this direction and starting a schismatic church in Ukraine for the West and it’s elites who at bottom are summed up at the WEF with an evil Gnostic transhumanism. It’s very clear the apostate Rome we are supposed to unite with is in their favor and moving in this direction, and this goes back to pre-globalist Americanism and neoconservatism Infiltrating the Vatican in operation Gladio. You also see many of our scandalized priests going to Constantinople. This subversives are already here. The OCA just changed its stance on the EP a while back after money went missing. That’s the type of immense pressure from the state they are under, and all churches and jurisdictions and modern to traditionalist priests have scandals, the lives of the Saints and sayings of the desert fathers are full of them. What is important here rather than judgemental scandal Olympics is that parishes, monasteries, and jurisdictions with more modernist and innovative beliefs have more scandals leaning towards the prevailing progressive worldview and are targeted more for blackmail and subversion. This was even seen prior to Communism when the Revolutionaries, academics, and financiers targeted the Renovationists of the Living Church and Sophiologists to move the church and culture their way, and sure enough it became Stalin’s puppet church. These people always target hesychasm and patristics and leverage extra-ecclesiastical authority, while academics leverage any heretical view in the fathers and radicals like Bulkagov and Berdyaev. Especially if you go to Pageau or Bishop Merratta’s talks with Vervaeke , or Grail Country’s videos you will find people calling on David Bentley Hart, cherry picking parts of Blessed Augustine, Gregory of Nysa, or Justin Martyr rejected by the councils to overthrow tradition and hesychast restrictions, liberalize the religion, back the pope’s social justice, think they can fix progressive, use the imagination in prayer, and do things like keep entities via prayer for fallen spirits and scream at you “Jung never said that!” If you bring up his calls to put Lucifer in the Trinity and give God a wife. Even semi secular conservatives like Mark Leferbve taking a Petersonian approach will some times join in and “gift” is an modern update snd syncretism that amounts to Arian neoscholasticism. In Peterson’s words on going to church “tell them they are outdated and help them catch up.” And yes we can recieve those who come in his name and there is grace outside the church, as well as unlicensed exorcists. That doesn’t mean we have to accept everything into apostacy, and cannot have a both and attitude of love and dialogos next to apologetics and defense of the faith. Have a blessed Holy Week and God Bless you.
@Ac Christ is Risen! I hope you had a wonderful day yesterday with your church family! Thank you for the description in your comment. Is there another place on the internet where you share ideas regarding this topic? The YT comment section is good but a bit limited
There is a book by Christopher Crossan called Children of the Magi: A Sacred History of the Kurds and the Persians that brings the Kurds and Persians into universal history.
Can you fellas talk to Jordan Daniel Wood, DBH, or John Milbank? Please. We need some heavy hitters. They know Nyssen, Maximus, Ephraim inside out, as much as that is possible. And they’re not young Earth creationists…
6:23 Orthodoxy has a lot to teach the wider church re how to recognize / interpret symbols... but I can't help roll my eyes when questions of historicity are hand-waved. This is why the bolsheviks ate orthodoxy's lunch. "Symbolism" or pattern recognition isn't worth beans UNLESS the patterns are actually manifest in history. Historicity is what distinguishes "patterns as structures of reality" from mere superstition.
Jonathan's dismissal of historicity is not the traditional Orthodox view, by any means. It appears to be a personal reaction to his upbringing. Until recently decades, absolutely everyone in the Orthodox Church believed in the historicity of the Bible, and most people who are serious about their faith still do, certainly the monastics.
I know what you mean by "wider Church", but it's impossible, there's only 1 Truth, 1 Church.. the rest are... really impoverished... Spiritually, since they believe they're in correct place but aren't...
"Historicity is what distinguishes 'patterns as structures of reality' from mere superstition." I think Jonathan's point is that our modern epistemology is flawed in this sense for determining the Truth value of something, the soundness of the pattern is _more_ important than empirical evidence of its historical existence, not the other way around he's not saying the events didn't happen historically, he's just frustrated at the over-emphasis on "evidence" that to him is missing the point (this is my interpretation anyway, I agree he can be a bit wishy washy on this point)
Today's humanity's 98% or more can't tell that difference, or rather "Christianity's" 98% can't, I can't, I know of handful of people who kinda can, and I'm in religious circles
@@larryjake7783 If you mean the snake that's Genesis. Yahweh (from Genesis 2) is the name of that ancient serpent called the Devil and Satan. He's always trying to usurp God's titles.
Is it blasphemous to say that the Bible contains a contextual level as it relates to the particular and an allegorical level pointing to an important universal? (reconciling first and second born for example?) For one, Mary anoints the Lord/Jesus' FEET with her HAIR and Jesus' lays aside his GARMENT (each holding their particular meaning yet a universal one as it relates to Esau and Jacob and the stolen blessing in Genesis (Jacob encouraged by Rebekah takes on Esau's HAIRY GARMENT to deceive his blind father Isaac: 'feet' and Jacob's taking of Esau's heel). These acts seem to be central in the history of retaliation and vengeance among the children of Abraham throughout history. The gospel of John seems to be hinting back to the beginning and through the splits in narrative ('before Abraham was, I am' J 8.58). John 8.42 reads 'I proceeded and I came forth from God' ('proceed' links with 'Spirit of truth' and 'came forth' is found attached to both 'Esau' and 'Jacob' (Gen 25.25, 26) in the RSV. Locations too seem to hold allegorical significance: After Jacob's first naming to 'Israel' he is met by Esau. Esau accepts Jacob's gift from his hand and Jacob proclaims 'seeing your face is like seeing the face of God with such favor you have received me'; Esau asks just named 'Israel' to follow him to SEIR; Jacob deceives and goes to SUCCOTH. See 'Seir' and 'Succoth' at abarim-publications.com.
Is there anything on this Orthodox Christian's channel that's about Orthodox Christianity? I've given Pageau several chances trying his videos and every time he's just using Orthodox imagery to talk about philosophy and psychology. There's nothing of faith or belief in Christ in any of the things I've seen him do. They could be given by an atheist without any alteration at all. To me, he comes across as just another one of those "there's deep meaning in stories" guys that are a dime a dozen. Where is Pageau discussing Christianity as if he actually have saving faith in Jesus?
Orthodoxy uses a lot of symbolism, and Jonathan helps us to understand it more deeply in terms of our faith in Christ. Dont expect from him or judge him for not preaching orthodoxy or faith in Christ in a more classical way like priests do. He's humble, you dont preach about virtues and orthodox way of life as a layman like priests do if you havent achieved those virtues.
I would say what the person above me wrote and add if you want a more classical perspective, meaning just scripture then check out Seraphim Hamilton channel as well and some of Fr. Stephen De Young's content. Pageau just covers different topics regarding scripture, everyone is called to express the truth of Christ the same way.
Thanks so much! Hope we can do it again sometime!
That was very good. I look forward to your material.
Excellent! Seraphim Hamilton!
I abandoned my Christian beliefs in my 20s after I had come to believe that the biblical stories were just silly fairy tales that only naive or desperate people could believe. I was unaware that I had such a childlike understanding of the stories until I started watching your videos. I'm still spinning and confused about most of it, but I sit here today a believer, thanks in part to you, Jonathan. I will be forever grateful. ❤
From catholic faith here (Québec) it’s still hard/imposible to have those conversations with people at the church.
@@alexforget because they're actually secular/atheist
I have had a similar experience. God bless you and you will be in my prayers
Appreciating mythology and the archetypes of human history is not the same as literally believing in miracles that didn’t happen, like a virgin birth. But what does the story mean? What can we learn from it?
@@bryanutility9609 but it did.
This is going to be epic.
Epicci: not one, but multiple epic things.
I love that
Before I found orthodoxy, I found the Pageau brothers.
I dont believe in coincidences anymore. He is risen. ☦️
joy to listen to these guys talking, they both are insightful Christian Orthodox thinkers
Wow I loved every bit of this
I just love it when Pageau gets kind of excited about this stuff; I swear his energy comes right through my phone and lands on me!
Merci Jonathan, frere orthodoxe, pour ton travail dans les écritures, histoire ect, pour la connaissance des textes ici et l'intuition qui vient d'en haut, a 72 ans j'ai aussi l'esperance et ne crains point.... Rabbouni est un fin strategoi
I saw this when it came on Seraphim's Chanel and got excited thinking this was a new collaboration of you 2 lol i sure hope you both get to do more in the hrar future, as you make a symbolism golden duo😂❤
What a beautiful conversation ❤
Based
Amazing video! I thoroughly enjoyed it and found it very enlightening, God bless you All!
“The world is different than the OT”
JP “No. You still live in that world.”
Big time. The exodus story is probably the most universal story because we are all exiles from heaven. Pretty much all flood stories are stories of washing away of corruption into the new. Chaos into order. Insufficiency of reason the tower of babel. Stories of nomadic peoples into settled peoples which is all over the Bible from Jacob(Famer) and Esau(Nomad), the exodus, the Babylonian captivity and the battles between them.
Pageau comes off as being very humble. If I had what he has, I would be crushed by the weight of my own pride
this is a good point, and it's one of the reasons he remains my favorite youtube guy
you see a lot of frustration from the hardcore Orthodox guys, like, "why don't you show your true power and start evangelizing more". They don't realize that Pageau's humble approach is what attracts secular people, and probably converts many more in the long run.
So as a Lutheran who fell away from the Church, and I do mean Church because I never totally fell away from my belief in God, I just wanted to say thank you to Jonathan.
I can say that it was listening first to Jordon Peterson, who then led me over to Jonathan, and it was really Listening to Jonathan that lit a fire under me again and prompted me to start going back to church.
I just want to say a big thank you! Being closer to God and being apart of Church again has been a very big blessing in my life lately 🙏. Lol Even if its not the Orthodox Church.....
Though it's very interesting because I have been noticing some changes in what Our Pastor has been doing in our Church and saying..... I feel in away like we are very much moving in a "Orthodox" direction.
Our particular Lutheran Church has always been very conservative (though technically we used to be apart of the more "Liberal" denomination, we recently split and are part of the NALC now 🤷🏻♀️)
We are far more traditional in that we use old liturgical practice (which I love). We practice confession and celebrate Eucharist every Sunday, as well as allowing children to partake in Communion as soon as Baptism has happened. When my dad was growing up they didn't do confession and only had communion once a month, and you could not take communion until you completed confirmation.
I find it very interesting that we seem to be moving back towards more traditional practices. It's a good feeling.
But Christ established (with Apostles) a real Church, happened in physical world in time and space, so... Why not pursue what happened back then and there and what followed later, what apostles did church-wise, go deeper, cheking students of apostles and etc
And there is so so so much material available in this regard, original sources, writings, it will take some time, true, a year or two, but... You won't believe how important that pursuit is until you find it out and believe. By won't believe I mean - I can tell you why is it important, you may have heard it gazillion of times, but believing it is another thing
Love that Seraphim.
Seraphim was reserved... Still loved this
51:20 Jonathan the reason why is that we were starving for it, while not knowing it was there.
So happy to have subscribed to your videos,
Best symbolic thinkers on the TH-cams.
Lovely conversation, thank you gentlemen.
Thank God also for King Sirius.
i am willing to admit where i was wrong.
i had a frustrating relationship with the christian integration of pagan concepts from pre-christian europe. who knows why in the final analysis, but i guess i kind of picked up a too-rousseauian noble-savage, view of christian conversion. i would readily use language like "christians stole X concept from Y," when in reality, cultural conversions and assimilations are rarely that simplistic.
even though i sometimes get frustrated by christians and christian concepts, please know that i deeply appreciate your work. i'm something of a symbol interpreter myself, and i think your work, though foreign to me, is extremely important and illuminating.
I've just discovered Mr.Hamilton a week ago, coincidence? I think not
There is a book by Christopher Crossan called Children of the Magi: A Sacred History of the Kurds and the Persians that brings the Kurds and Persians into universal history.
Amazing!
Thanks
Hey Jonathan, have your read the novel "Wise Blood" by Flannery O'Connor? It has the strangest symbolism I've ever seen in a fiction novel and she was a Catholic so I know there is lots of religious layers. I immediately wanted to know if you had read it once I finished.
Hey, JD. Mind if I interject? What is the premise about? What is so strange about it, is it the setting or the characters?
Have a good weekend. Thanks for the attention.
I haven't read this one yet but love her short stories, gotta check it out
Vimal,
The premise is about a preachers kid turned atheist back from the war, and he goes to a town and starts the Church without Christ to spite religious people and try to prove to himself he doesn’t feel guilt. That’s the bare bones, there’s tons of other layers and side plots and it’s just so strange and hard to parse out.
Kabane????? Woooow :DDDD
he is that guy?! Sweet! Hahaha I used to watch his vids like 10 years ago or something?
Ahah, he has videos from 13 years ago. Today's he's overly well read, it's crazy
I believe Dante saw st. Peter as a new Aeneas founding a new Rome which is the church. In Assyrian and Chaldean lore there's a belief that they're the descendats of Ninveh that were converted by Jonah and they have the feast of Jonah to celebrate it. Armenians with the sons of Noah after the flood at mount Ararat. The Kurds have a lore with the Medes. There was a huge attempt by missionries to like FN/Native Americans to the lost tribes of Israel. Of course Ethiopian lore with Solomon and Sheba. In Baha'i lore they allign the sons of Abraham's third wife or concubine some scholars argue Keturah. And of course Arab lore with Ishameal.
Armenian Ararat story... You know what's funny - they called that mountain Ararat in late 1800s... (old armenian name for it is quite different) Many theories existed about Ararat - that mountain being Ararat is one of them, it could have been Caucasus (bigger mountain), could have been in Iran, could have been other mountains in lesser Caucasus (north Armenia) (and these theories were existent and discussed thorough centuries. That mountain currently called Ararat being Ararat was tool used for national identity building of Armenian people freed from Islamic captivity (both of Iran and Turkey)
How does the conversation about feet fit with the angels with six wings and one set covering their feet? That would be fascinating to understand. (For me, anyway)
I would say few have guts to go into the territory of how FN/native americans and the rebirth of modern Israel fit into universal history. Both are stories of nomadic peoples into settled peoples and the battles between these peoples which is all over the Bible from Jacob(Famer) and Esau(Nomad), the exodus, the Babylonian captivity and the fact that St. Paul mentions the Scythians a nomadic people in the body of Christ.
"Trying to show literary patterns in scripture, in a way to discount the historicity of it"
this is a great example of "the flip" or how the inversion inverts itself. When we're taught patterns are "mere stories" or whatever and therefore false, we unknowingly use the very Truth of something to discredit it... and from that point the cat is out of the bag, the jig is up, the Truth becomes obvious
when everything is deconstructed, the true patterns are plain to see
at the bottom of the scientific worldview is re-enchantment
💚💚💚💚💚
I can’t wait until my other Christian friends and family get on board with this way of seeing the world. Until then I guess I’ll just be the crazy guy spouting nonsense.
Which James Jordan book?
Though china does not have strong gospel influence due to the regime issue, we have the old legendary traced back to the beiginning of the Chinese ancestors. According to the old chinese legendary, we had the record of flood poured down from the sky. We even had the "Goddess" created us from dust and breathed us alive. Behold, that "Goddess" saved our ancestor from that flood through sacrificing us by her own body to patch the hole in the sky. That "Goddess" was half serpent, half female, having the name of "NvWa"(soudns familiar? YWHW). I strongly believe our chinese old legendary has been deeply modified and twistted by the serpent at the very beginning of our memory. That's why there were and are so much tragedies on that land... God Bless
58:00 when was the last time i heard someone saying well like this what he is DOING lol
Subjective duality = subjecthood in Plato's Cave.
Jonathan, when you point out that you don’t agree with much that could be heretical in Kastrup but want the non materialistic common ground, do you think this is more of a cathecal and pastoral issue?
If so, doesn’t that require addressing state pressure, ideologies in the clergy, and extra ecclesiastical influence from academia and NGO’s? And won’t that involve those who unlike you want to leverage Neoplatonism for gender and don’t cede that Origen was heretical, like David Bentley Hart and those who bring him up, and those who wish to leverage Bulkagov and Berdyaev, which includes many of Vervaeke’s thinkers like Corbin on The Imaginal issue that has great potential as well as great danger.
And won’t that become a greater influence as apostate priests strive for ecumenical reunion with Rome, green theology, and the great influence Vervaeke and colleagues will have on academia over the next decades in addition to Christians reciprocally reconstructing on this model.
I’m not judging you or calling you a heretic, but coming from the secular side of this and knowing those thinkers I don’t think we can be naive and some big caveats and outright addressing of these things seems necessary.
Maybe but this is where people equally like Mr. Hamilton in this video or the Dyer's and other Orthodox Christians will help people (via the online arena) to stay focused on the Church aspect and not get carried away with Neoplatonism.
Fr. Stephen De Young and others like him or other good ones.
@@larryjake7783 Yes for sure. Being at church and a good spiritual father, but it should be publicly hashed out and it’s connections to Origenism as well as the modern temptation to fall into that. I lean a bit more to the traditionalists but never heard anything I didn't like from Fr Stephen, he's great. Have a great Holy Week.
Hey Ac, would you write a description of the Trojan horses you see being "gifted" to the Church? You see where this is going-"if another comes in his own name, him you will receive." Do what you can to shine a light on this stuff. Have a wonderful Holy Week! God bless
@@andrewpirr You too, hope Holy Week is going good. The biggest issues are ecumenism and natural, and process theism. Especially here with Origenism of the type espoused by David Bentley Hart which throws out the ecumenical councils and patristics for intellectual ideas.
It’s an especially big temptation here because by throwing out the literal OT grounded elements of the Bible which Christ preached and drew upon ( and yes there is discernment on certain parts being symbolic only) one can link up with science and psychology today and have our religion justified on their terms.
However, this means you don’t truly believe in it and heretical ideas get in along with an overarching spiritual evolutionism whose presuppositions end in changing Christ’s Church into a universalism or something like Chardin’s Gnostic ideas to transcend Christ and our bodies for “the cosmic Christ” (see Fr Rose’s chapter on Chardin in Orthodox Survival Course.)
You see those ideas with green theology right now and Yale and their ecumenist Religion and Ecology courses, and the same ideas push the LGBTQ agenda and left wing politics. There are multiple NGO’s like Arcus and Fordham (listed in Rachel Wilson’s substack and conversation on institutional capture with Dyer) spending millions to influence religions in this direction. One such institution has something like $36 million dedicated just to Ibrahimic religions. You see Constantinople moving in this direction and starting a schismatic church in Ukraine for the West and it’s elites who at bottom are summed up at the WEF with an evil Gnostic transhumanism. It’s very clear the apostate Rome we are supposed to unite with is in their favor and moving in this direction, and this goes back to pre-globalist Americanism and neoconservatism Infiltrating the Vatican in operation Gladio. You also see many of our scandalized priests going to Constantinople.
This subversives are already here. The OCA just changed its stance on the EP a while back after money went missing. That’s the type of immense pressure from the state they are under, and all churches and jurisdictions and modern to traditionalist priests have scandals, the lives of the Saints and sayings of the desert fathers are full of them. What is important here rather than judgemental scandal Olympics is that parishes, monasteries, and jurisdictions with more modernist and innovative beliefs have more scandals leaning towards the prevailing progressive worldview and are targeted more for blackmail and subversion. This was even seen prior to Communism when the Revolutionaries, academics, and financiers targeted the Renovationists of the Living Church and Sophiologists to move the church and culture their way, and sure enough it became Stalin’s puppet church. These people always target hesychasm and patristics and leverage extra-ecclesiastical authority, while academics leverage any heretical view in the fathers and radicals like Bulkagov and Berdyaev.
Especially if you go to Pageau or Bishop Merratta’s talks with Vervaeke , or Grail Country’s videos you will find people calling on David Bentley Hart, cherry picking parts of Blessed Augustine, Gregory of Nysa, or Justin Martyr rejected by the councils to overthrow tradition and hesychast restrictions, liberalize the religion, back the pope’s social justice, think they can fix progressive, use the imagination in prayer, and do things like keep entities via prayer for fallen spirits and scream at you “Jung never said that!” If you bring up his calls to put Lucifer in the Trinity and give God a wife.
Even semi secular conservatives like Mark Leferbve taking a Petersonian approach will some times join in and “gift” is an modern update snd syncretism that amounts to Arian neoscholasticism. In Peterson’s words on going to church “tell them they are outdated and help them catch up.”
And yes we can recieve those who come in his name and there is grace outside the church, as well as unlicensed exorcists. That doesn’t mean we have to accept everything into apostacy, and cannot have a both and attitude of love and dialogos next to apologetics and defense of the faith.
Have a blessed Holy Week and God Bless you.
@Ac Christ is Risen! I hope you had a wonderful day yesterday with your church family! Thank you for the description in your comment. Is there another place on the internet where you share ideas regarding this topic? The YT comment section is good but a bit limited
Matthew J. Milliner is one of the few people trying to integrate FN/Native Americans into universal history.
Does he write books and articles or make videos? Or both?
@@Joefrenomics Yeah! He does all that. He wrote a great book called everlasting people: G.K. Chesterton and the First Peoples.
There is a book by Christopher Crossan called Children of the Magi: A Sacred History of the Kurds and the Persians that brings the Kurds and Persians into universal history.
What exactly did Shem do wrong when he covered his Father up with a cloak. He even walked backwards. Why did Noah get so mad at him?
Can you fellas talk to Jordan Daniel Wood, DBH, or John Milbank? Please. We need some heavy hitters.
They know Nyssen, Maximus, Ephraim inside out, as much as that is possible.
And they’re not young Earth creationists…
I'm not an idealist, I'm not a realist, I'm a real enoughist.
6:23 Orthodoxy has a lot to teach the wider church re how to recognize / interpret symbols... but I can't help roll my eyes when questions of historicity are hand-waved. This is why the bolsheviks ate orthodoxy's lunch. "Symbolism" or pattern recognition isn't worth beans UNLESS the patterns are actually manifest in history. Historicity is what distinguishes "patterns as structures of reality" from mere superstition.
Jonathan's dismissal of historicity is not the traditional Orthodox view, by any means. It appears to be a personal reaction to his upbringing. Until recently decades, absolutely everyone in the Orthodox Church believed in the historicity of the Bible, and most people who are serious about their faith still do, certainly the monastics.
The traditional Orthodox view is "as well as" not "instead of."
I know what you mean by "wider Church", but it's impossible, there's only 1 Truth, 1 Church.. the rest are... really impoverished... Spiritually, since they believe they're in correct place but aren't...
"Historicity is what distinguishes 'patterns as structures of reality' from mere superstition."
I think Jonathan's point is that our modern epistemology is flawed in this sense
for determining the Truth value of something, the soundness of the pattern is _more_ important than empirical evidence of its historical existence, not the other way around
he's not saying the events didn't happen historically, he's just frustrated at the over-emphasis on "evidence" that to him is missing the point
(this is my interpretation anyway, I agree he can be a bit wishy washy on this point)
@@chrisc7265 how is the soundness of a pattern determined?
What?! The flood didn't happen? I don't think the flood story is in every culture.
In way way too many old cultures to dismiss
@@FirstnameLastname-py3bc then we must be one of the few that started the rumor 🤭
I bet that in the End Times there will literally be people who can't tell the difference between Genesis 1 God and Genesis 2 Devil. 🤦♂️
Today's humanity's 98% or more can't tell that difference, or rather "Christianity's" 98% can't, I can't, I know of handful of people who kinda can, and I'm in religious circles
Do you mean the serpent?
@@larryjake7783
If you mean the snake that's Genesis.
Yahweh (from Genesis 2) is the name of that ancient serpent called the Devil and Satan.
He's always trying to usurp God's titles.
@@larryjake7783
Whoops I meant Genesis 3. Snake is Genesis 3.
Is it blasphemous to say that the Bible contains a contextual level as it relates to the particular and an allegorical level pointing to an important universal? (reconciling first and second born for example?) For one, Mary anoints the Lord/Jesus' FEET with her HAIR and Jesus' lays aside his GARMENT (each holding their particular meaning yet a universal one as it relates to Esau and Jacob and the stolen blessing in Genesis (Jacob encouraged by Rebekah takes on Esau's HAIRY GARMENT to deceive his blind father Isaac: 'feet' and Jacob's taking of Esau's heel). These acts seem to be central in the history of retaliation and vengeance among the children of Abraham throughout history. The gospel of John seems to be hinting back to the beginning and through the splits in narrative ('before Abraham was, I am' J 8.58). John 8.42 reads 'I proceeded and I came forth from God' ('proceed' links with 'Spirit of truth' and 'came forth' is found attached to both 'Esau' and 'Jacob' (Gen 25.25, 26) in the RSV. Locations too seem to hold allegorical significance: After Jacob's first naming to 'Israel' he is met by Esau. Esau accepts Jacob's gift from his hand and Jacob proclaims 'seeing your face is like seeing the face of God with such favor you have received me'; Esau asks just named 'Israel' to follow him to SEIR; Jacob deceives and goes to SUCCOTH. See 'Seir' and 'Succoth' at abarim-publications.com.
Is there anything on this Orthodox Christian's channel that's about Orthodox Christianity? I've given Pageau several chances trying his videos and every time he's just using Orthodox imagery to talk about philosophy and psychology. There's nothing of faith or belief in Christ in any of the things I've seen him do. They could be given by an atheist without any alteration at all. To me, he comes across as just another one of those "there's deep meaning in stories" guys that are a dime a dozen. Where is Pageau discussing Christianity as if he actually have saving faith in Jesus?
Orthodoxy uses a lot of symbolism, and Jonathan helps us to understand it more deeply in terms of our faith in Christ. Dont expect from him or judge him for not preaching orthodoxy or faith in Christ in a more classical way like priests do. He's humble, you dont preach about virtues and orthodox way of life as a layman like priests do if you havent achieved those virtues.
I would say what the person above me wrote and add if you want a more classical perspective, meaning just scripture then check out Seraphim Hamilton channel as well and some of Fr. Stephen De Young's content.
Pageau just covers different topics regarding scripture, everyone is called to express the truth of Christ the same way.
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That echo/reverb thing going on with Seraphim is profoundly distracting and unpleasant. Nearly bad enough to quit the video.
Based