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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ก.พ. 2013
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Dr. Charles Gutenson here outlines John Wesley's order of salvation-that work of God which begins with prevenient grace and ends with glorifying grace.
Request. Wesley’s view on original sin and total depravity after the fall of man
Amen
Great
Hmmm... God gives free will and then waits until a person comes to faith through free will and then gives them convicting grace. You have to wonder why the convicting grace was even needed.
How did John Wesley grappled with Romans 9 where Apostle Paul discussed God’s sovereign election, where he anticipated all the questions and answered them point blank?
You mean the objection to Israel being hardened?
John Wesley as along with pretty much everyone else in history just read Romans 9 IN CONTEXT with Romans 1-11. Don't take the chapter out of context with what Paul was portraying.
Like all Arminians, he denied the obvious. They have a spiritual blindness when it comes to God's sovereign election and predestination. Paul could have said "two plus two equals four," and they would respond, "well four doesn't mean what you think it means."
@@jamesers99no
@@rohandanielisaac8107yep the historical context, the idea being God can have grace on Gentiles to by grace not race. It’s pretty simple
"He wants those relationships to be chosen/restored freely" - where in the bible is that? Whats the basis for this assumption? Its a pretty big one.
Hey brother Aaron have you considered the story of creation and how God gave Adam a choice?
Rocky W. Stafford What does that have to do with salvation?
MASSIVE difference between God choosing and determining certain PHYSICAL things and God choosing and determining who will and who will not be saved for no apparent reason before the foundation of the world.
If you can’t recognize this difference then you are blinded by a man made doctrine.
In fact scripture clearly tells us of certain PHYSICAL things that are in fact determined and IRONICALLY it’s meant to cause us to SEEK HIM and find Him.
...According to Acts 17:24-27 God predetermined WHEN and WHERE we were to be born specifically so that we COULD SEEK HIM AND FIND HIM:
ACTS 17:24-27
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing HE GIVETH TO ALL LIFE, AND BREATH, AND ALL THINGS;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and HATH DETERMINED THE TIMES BEFORE APPOINTED, AND THE BOUNDS OF THEIR HABITATION;
27 THAT THEY SHOULD SEEK THE LORD, IF HAPLY THEY MIGHT FEEL AFTER HIM, AND FIND HIM, THOUGH HE BE NOT FAR FROM EVERY ONE OF US:
1john 2:2, john 3:16, plus many more.
@@rockyw.stafford3006 rocky calvinists get around that with a doctrine called infralapsarianism.
@@apilkey I love that passage in Acts, I am all about predestination, predestination does not mean God has already picked his team....."Should" and "might" are some key words on this passage which implies a possibility of men and women choosing not to accept Christ even though God has set the conditions for them to do so.
You Must endure to the end, overcome so your crown will not be taken, overcome so your name will not be blotted out, work out your salvation with fear and trembling, do good works that prove your repentance and do good works that produce good fruits and REMAIN in Christ or He will not REMAIN in you JOHN 15, living a perpetual repentant life! Salvation is a journey, a path FOLLOWING Jesus. God will not make you stop sinning, He gives you the free will to forfeit your inheritance or endure to the end, that one will be saved is what is in the Greek. If you disagree, you do not know Gods word. Please, read your bible! God bless...
crown being taken is not the same thing as being saved. The crown is a reward for people who are already Christians.
Yes exactly! The Bema seat 5 crowns and what they are specifically for shows the proper goals for sanctification. Understanding the 4 different judgements and when and who they are for, sorta blows Wesley's sanctification process out of the water, I think. I'm don't think anyone, besides Jesus, is capable of or will be rewarded all 5 crowns at the Bema seat. We are justified at the moment we believe the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). At that point one is a Christian. The sanctification process is life long. Never being 100 percent sanctified until our mortal bodies are changed at the rapture. Once in our glorified immortal bodies, then we are 100 percent sanctified or glorified. What ever crowns we were rewarded at the Bema seat judgement will reflect our status in the millenial kingdom and the eternal state. Understanding eschatology and all it's details can help to remove the false understanding of works for salvation that so many denominations push. Belief for salvation; works for rewards/crowns. This is how I understand it and believe it.
From what I read from the bible is that everyone is damned and it is the work of God out of mercy He chose to save some for His glory and that we are saved by through his grace by giving us faith that will enable and empower us to be transform and said yes Lord with in continuous repentance of his or her sins is the evidence that he or she has a right relationship with God. I find those 4 graces which he mentions from God given to us from within so that we can have faith in Him.
From what you read where, except the gnostic ,monk Augustine. Please show me where there is one single scripture where your faith is actually operated by him, and one single scripture where salvation precedes faith and repentance, of course you know the tons that the Christian has. Will that gnostic spirit never stop?. When you are born again before you believe unto righteous, are you half born again as unrighteous, what form does that take?. There is simply only one scripture where the enemy of God is passed over. This is by the priest who passes by the victim, when the enemy the Samaritan stops to help, the priest passing by without providing his enemy either salvation or help. Does Paul have more Love for the hardened, because he would go to hell for them, yet your god will not die for them, no is happy to withhold faith, no is glorified by hiding from them the escape. Does God break the command of love, because he does not die for his enemies?, why does he forgive the reprobate from the cross??, . How can God tell us to love our enemies, yet he is filled with adrenalin to send his to hell, and so is glorified.? Can God be the author of sin?, can he have a choice or is he himself eternally bound by the force of determinism, can you for one second stop using your will?. Is it to the glory of god that he dams millions, no your god is my Satan. This man is very gentle, yet if you do not open your heart and choose Jesus, you will not be allowed in. You cannot as you father Augustine, rely on a spiritual experience, you must receive the gospel with your open heart .
You have Calvinists, Roman Catholics and Methodists going at it in the comment section, and yet how much of what they wrote against each other will be useful in facilitating the conversion of a random stranger on TH-cam toward genuine faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and repentance from sin? In each polemical response, none take into account the whole body of Sacred Scripture, but simply pit one Bible verse or chapter against another, or label the other camp as "unbiblical," without providing anything to support the claim. This is the reason why Paul commanded Titus to _"avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law," because such arguments are "unprofitable and vain"_ (Titus 3:9).
In the video Gutenson speaks of (1) prevenient grace, (2) convicting grace, (3) justifying grace and (4) glorifying grace. Notwithstanding the individual labels that they possess, all four are equally God's plain provision of grace. Wesley, according to Gutenson, is saying that it is God's provision of grace that prevents (old definition: to go before someone with aid or help) the heart of the individual and enables them to listen to the Gospel; it is God's provision of grace that convicts/convinces someone of the truth of the Gospel; it is God's provision of grace that justifies someone, restores him or her from spiritual death and establishing a right relationship between that person and God; it is God's provision of grace that glorifies/purifies a believer, ensuring that they grow and conform more and more to Christ's pattern.
With the same understanding, the Catholic theologian St. Augustine of Hippo writes in his work, _De Gratia Et Libero Arbitrio,_ saying, _"it follows, then, dearly beloved, beyond all doubt, that as your good life is nothing else than God's grace, so also the eternal life which is the recompense of a good life is the grace of God; moreover it is given gratuitously, even as that is given gratuitously to which it is given,"_ a sentiment that John Calvin reiterates in his work, _De Servitute Et Liberatione Humani Arbitrii,_ saying, _"it is entirely the work of grace and a benefit conferred by it that our heart is changed from a stony one to one of flesh, that our will is made new, and that we, created anew in heart and mind, at length will what we ought to will."_
It is proof that while particular jurisdictions of the Church may hold deeply contrasting opinions on secondary matters such as church polity, liturgy, and tradition, they share the same essence.
When Adam sinned, fell, it was not just a "broken relationship" with God. He died (separation). Sin passed to all men (Romans 5). So we are born "dead in sin." (Ephesians 2:1). We need "regeneration" (John 3), not just "restoration." We must be converted, not just restored. Wesleyan thought is convoluted, not rightly understanding the Scriptures. Wesleyan's might as well be Roman Catholics.
Death passed to all men not sin.
It says that all men sinned. Do babies sin? Are they drawn away with their own lust through temptations? What sort of sins do you think babies struggle with?
If this is what Weslians believe, then they are lost. This teaching is unbiblical. They should read the Bible more and should not trust this humanistic view of ordo salutis otherwise labeled as weslian doctrine.
Can you kindly prove from the Bible about ordo Salutiz or order of Salavation
And not Via Salutiz
Mariano da Cruz We believe and then God saves us it’s that simple.
EPHESIANS 1:13
13 In whom ye also trusted, AFTER THAT YE HEARD the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER THAT YE BELIEVED, YE WERE SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise,
Saving grace is available to ALL men:
TITUS 2:11
11 FOR THE GRACE OF GOD THAT BRINGETH SALVATION HATH APPEARED TO ALL MEN,
John Wesley's order?. I want the Lord Jesus' order and His' only and not some man's
Go tell that to a Calvinist.
Glenn, you're being too harsh.
There was a time in my Christian life when, though born again, I detested even the very word "doctrine" (nothing more implied by me, btw). [I had been taken and held captive by the hyper-faith prosperity gospel, my love of the world and its materialisms hating the full quiver of God's Truth.] Eventually, though, I realized it [the word "doctrine"] was merely the descriptive word for us expressing what we spiritually believe.
The brother in this video was just stating the basis of his denomination's beliefs, which is the theology of John Wesley.
Obviously, Wesley and his adherents believe Wesley's steps of salvation ARE Jesus' steps. Others may believe differently, but they too believe they are in sync with Christ.
We are not in this world an island onto ourselves. Additionally, many of us in Christ are also evangelical, meaning we believe oyrselves commanded by God to share our Christian salvic beliefs. When we do that, we are by default engaging in doctrine whether we formally realize it as such or not. It could be the steps of Jones or Smith or Wesley, simply because someone before us held the same beliefs and we identify with them for the sake of discussion and organization.
(If on the other hand, someone has idolized the theology of another or even that of their own selves, turning their doctrines into something they unknowingly worship instead of the Creator himself, sure, such is error. But we cannot know what a person has turned into an idol of their heart--heck, we don't even know what idols still remain in our OWN heart, apart from being given divine revelation to the contrary.)
[ed.+]
@@brotherjim5904 I am for God's order not any man's religious order.
It is not free grace if you as a believer half to maintain it. That is works salvation and is of satan. You teach another gospel Gal 1:8-9
Heb 5:9 NKJV And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, ---
According to the verse you must be obedient to be eternally saved. Is obedience works?
Why would I try and read Hebrews which is addressed to Hebrews? I read it for learning and understanding but it is addressed to the Hebrews (Romans 9:30, Romans 11:6, Eph 1:8-9) are all crystal clear
While also sad and grievous, the Lord and I cannot help but chuckle at how mortal man trips all over himself.
Reading through the comments to this video, it's amazing how it degraded into a Calvin vs. Armin argument. Further amazing is how each side has downplayed the underlying cause as the other side incorrectly reading the Bible.
Is it of little wonder why the Word in Prov. 6:16-17a lusts first the hubris of man as what God most hates, it being in the same list as murder?
Is it of little wonder why Jesus, and by implication the Heavenly Father, in John 2:23-25 attempts to enlighten us as to His refusal to tangibly commit to us, him knowing such would be further fuel to the fire of pride and its resultant arrogance?
As I tweeted, God has ordained both the Calvinist and Arminian, both the cessationist and the charismatic..."so that no flesh shall [JUSTIFIABLY] glory in His Presence/Sight." Such are needed tensions of restraint, though this too fails due the sinfullness of man.
Concerning works AND F(f)aith vs. F(f)aith only:
I myself never had to grapple with whether or not I had to add works in my Christian life to either maintain or assure my salvation. I had quite a dramatic conversion in my mid-twenties, weeping profusely maybe 10 minutes or more, awakening the next morning "automatically" motivated to do good works. And then later experienced a personal revival which is lasting a lifetime. (But neither do I rest upon olive leaf or laurel wreaths of past mountaintop encounters.)
For those raised in the Church and who never did anything all that terrible in either their or the world's eyes, I can understand the ________. (But because God established many steps of Grace be sought by His children, the next one for anyone can also be quite revolutionary for them.)
I always, therefore, saw works as a litmus test. If we truly were saved (OSAS) or were saved, are saved, and are being saved (CS): if we are producing good works it CAN be an additional witness to that salvation being genuine.
I highlighted "CAN" because it is quite easy, and likely widespread, for those truly reborn to afterwards perform self-righteous works of the flesh as a way to make themselves feel better regarding ongoing shortcomings. (We have 1st century Church examples of Gentile Christians getting religiously circumcised or at least considering it, as an analogy for all of us since.)
The Fruit of the S(s)pirit of Goodness (KJV, etc.) is given to God's children so that good works come forth of the S(s)pirit, by Grace, not soulish flesh.
"Today, if you will hear His Voice, harden not your heart...."
My question to these false theology is how can a dead man choose? how can a dead man have free will if he is dead in his transgressions and sins? the only answer is God has to give life to the dead man so he can choose him. This theology is anti-biblical and it is not of God
Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
Felipe González how can a dead person sin? If someone is unable to choose then they have no responsibility for their actions.
The choice is similar to a person who is drowning. A hand reaches into the water to pull the person out but the drowning person must take it. Its an easy choice for those who want to live.
John 6:43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
The Bible is very clear, is not the will of man but God's.
Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.
Having faith, choosing God is a GIFT from God, is not from ourselves. If you don't see it is because you are blind. Don't mean to be rude, i'm just clarifying the wrong exegesis from this video.
Your analogy is good for a person drowning, but what good would a hand do for someone that is dead?
That's all spiritually dead people do in the eyes of God is sin all day long, Rom 3:10-18, Rom 6:20
The Wesleyan completely forgets that SATAN is the impetus for WHY Jesus came to earth to be the Father's Christ -- to DESTROY the works of the Devil (sin and death). It started in Genesis, it resolves in Revelation.
First step. Original sin is a myth.
General Lee "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."-Psalm 51:5
"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned."-Romans 5:12
You pretty much have admitted that you are following a man written doctrine, instead of the doctrine of Jesus Christ. Christ founded one and only one Church, with only one doctrine. He founded the Catholic Church, and not any other Christian denomination. You can't tell me that Jesus Christ came down and told John Wesley to make up a new doctrine. Galatians 1:6-9, ( 6), I am astonished that you are so promptly turning away from the one who called you in the grace of Christ, and are changing over to a different gospel, (7),not that it is another gospel; except that there are some who are, troubling you and seeking to pervert the gospel of Christ. (8). But even if we ourselves, or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel other than the one you received, let that person be accursed. ( 9,)As we said before, and so I now repeat: if anyone proclaims to you a gospel other than the one you received, let that person be accursed. So, John Wesley HIMSELF, had proclaimed a new doctrine, other than the one that was originally taught! So all of his teachings are false teachings.