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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.ย. 2018
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The charge is sometimes laid at Wesleyan-Arminianism that it is a human-centered theology. But is this really true? In today's Seven Minute Seminary, Dr. Joshua McNall helps clarify the origin of salvation and how this illuminates the character of God.
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John 15:16 You did choose me but I choose you. So obviously it was God will behind your choice. One of the fruits of the Spirit is faith.
That verse does not explain limited atonement, irresistible grace, nor does it take away human responsibility. Wesleyan or Arminian theology never denied God being the author and finisher of our faith, it just emphasise on human responsibility in responding to God’s grace.
@@FrankSui_ Everything that happens in history has been decreed/Predestined before the world was created see Eph 1:11, Proverbs 16:33 and Amos 3:6. And yes even when terrible things happen, I know it's hard for some people to accept but look what happened when David sinned against God and one of Davids punishments was that God told him that he was going to use Davids own son to shame his Father by Absalom Absalom doing something immoral to his Fathers concubines in front of all of Israel, see 2 Samuel 12:11-12 God said "Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun." Notice how God said "I WILL DO THIS THING."That was fulfilled in 2 Samuel 16:21-22. Jesus did not die for every single person ever and Jesus didn't die to make people savable. He died to save his elect. In John 17:9 Jesus said that he does not pray for the world. The word world is used in different contexts, in that context he's talking about the non elect. In John 3:16 world means that he purchased people from every tribe, tongue and nation Rev 5:9 and for the children of God scattered abroad John 11:52. Some have been "long beforehand marked out for condemnation" Jude 4 and "appointed to doom." 1 Peter 2:8. About Pharaoh God said “For this VERY PURPOSE I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." Rom 9:17-18. Jesus said "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." Matthew 11:25-27. So, 2 Pet 3:9 the "not willing that any should perish" if you read that letter in context, 2 Pet 1:1 says "To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours." As far as salvation for all men verses, Paul was refuting the false notion of his time that God was only desiring to save just the Jews and 1 Tim 2:2 says to pray "for kings and all who are in authority" because as humans WE DON'T KNOW WHO THE ELECT ARE SO WE PRAY FOR EVERYONE! That's what it means in verse 4 by saying "all men." Amos 3:2 God said "of all the nations of the earth I have only known you." For centuries God passed over the majority of humankind because this verse isn't about knowledge it's about relationship. And it isn't because God foresaw Israel was more righteous then the other nations because sometimes Israel was more sinful then the pagan nations see 2 Kings 21:9. Only those who were predestined to be saved will be see Acts 13:48, Ephesians 1:4-5, Eph 1:11, Romans 9:11-23, John 6:37. 1 Samuel 3:14 God said “Therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.” That's Limited atonement.
You misinterpreted that verse.
@@FrankSui_human responsibility because we're enabled by grace... something I keep reminding my other fellow arminians..lest we become pelagian or semi pelagian like the provisionist folks and other non Augustinian people..
You’re taking that verse out of context. People of the reformed faith don’t even use that passage to describe election.
0:15 "the smear goes" well said
Randomness is a condition of the material universe. Unconditional election isn't something that we can understand. It's not random. It is unconditional. As long as you label it as random then you are obligated to judge it as well. Unconditional lacks any condition, even randomness.
Why is that whenever 2 Peter 3:9 is quoted it is always out of context? That’s a rhetorical question because if you simply read from verse 1 there is clearly two people groups mentioned, the beloved in 2 Peter 3:1 (who are the elect according to 1 Peter 1:1) and the ungodly men (2 Peter 3:7, who are also the mockers of verse 3).
Often many have imposed their traditions onto this text instead of actually reading the context of such a passage. They argue, “all means all right?” Well, sometimes it can but context ultimately determines the meaning of ”all” when it is used. Since context is of the utmost importance we have to ask, who is Peter writing to? We know for certain that this is letter #2 out of the two written. But to whom is it written? Peter clearly tells us in the beginning of his first letter who he is writing to and again in 2 Peter 3:1 he is writing to them again.
1 Peter 1:1-2 NASB
[1] Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen (elect) [2] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
Peter is talking about the elect, the chosen. In context, Peter is speaking about the second coming of Christ and that Jesus is patient giving full opportunity for all (who is all? All of the elect) to come to repentance.
If the "any" or “all” here refers to everyone in human history, the verse would prove far more than Arminians would want to prove - it would prove universalism rather than Christianity. Universalism is the false doctrine that teaches that everyone will ultimately be saved, with no one going to hell. If God is not willing that any person perish, then what? No one would ever perish! Yet, in context, the "any" that God wills not to perish must be limited to the same group Peter is writing to, the elect, and the "all" that are to come to repentance is the very same group. Christ’s second coming has been delayed so that all the elect can be gathered in. God is not willing that any of the elect should perish, but that all of them come to repentance (this proves Jesus’ truthful statement in John 6:37-44, 65 and in John 10:27-29 as well as the entire chapter of a John 17).
Rather than denying election, understood in its biblical context, it is one of the strongest verses in favor of it if we look at the whole context.
So are you telling me that God only loves to elect and the atonement is limited? Isn't that a clear violation of john 3:16 and 1 John 4: 8? It seems you are conveniently leaving out free will completely. I don't honestly see your logic and how it's consistent. Just because Peter is writing to the elect doesn't mean he is only talking about the elect and nothing else.
Moreover the 17th verse of John 3 says he didn't send his son to the world to condemn the world..
Calvinists are one of the most confused groups of theologians on the planet. Read the whole of 1Peter very carefully. You may see that it is the Lord Jesus Christ who is THE ELECT. He is the elect from the beginning. And he that follows Him is also an elect in Him. Also, do a study on the word, 'foreknowledge.' Check how the greek word is used in different places in the bible.
John 3:16 speaks only to the Jewish audience. Context, Context, Context!
Therefore, the Gospel is only to saved Jews.
Thanks for proving too much!
@@jeffpaton9667"The world" Yeah, you got that one definitely wrong.
Hey brother. I'm slightly confused about previent grace because it sounds to me like we chose because of the Holy Spirit showing us Jesus is Lord which shows God's sovereignty in his desire to save. If thats the case is the only difference whether or not this grace is resistable? And could someone give me scripture to explain this as well? Thanks.
Hi Chris, you are partly right. If you are interested I van give you the right Scripture to support the Truth.
You van resist Grace, otherwise Paul wouldn't have said 'I fought the good fight and I kept the faith'. So yes you can loose it. That's why we need to daily pick up our cross. We must daily choose against all satan and his world had to offer and throw at us. Gods richest blessing and kindness to you. Henry
Romans 8:30
Foreknew -> Predestined -> Called -> Justified -> Glorified
@@seanate63 👍
@@Bijbelstudies you say it isn't about you choosing then you turn around and say the exact thing.
@@koriclaypool9548 Hi Kori, It is typical how you people twist words. Now you even want to twist my own words against me. Where do you read what you state against me? You obviously did not read my message well.
Everything that happens in history has been decreed/Predestined before the world was created see Eph 1:11, Proverbs 16:33 and Amos 3:6. And yes even when terrible things happen, I know it's hard for some people to accept but look what happened when David sinned against God and one of Davids punishments was that God told him that he was going to use Davids own son to shame his Father by Absalom Absalom doing something immoral to his Fathers concubines in front of all of Israel, see 2 Samuel 12:11-12 God said "Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun." Notice how God said "I WILL DO THIS THING."That was fulfilled in 2 Samuel 16:21-22. Jesus did not die for every single person ever and Jesus didn't die to make people savable. He died to save his elect. In John 17:9 Jesus said that he does not pray for the world. The word world is used in different contexts, in that context he's talking about the non elect. In John 3:16 world means that he purchased people from every tribe, tongue and nation Rev 5:9 and for the children of God scattered abroad John 11:52. Some have been "long beforehand marked out for condemnation" Jude 4 and "appointed to doom." 1 Peter 2:8. About Pharaoh God said “For this VERY PURPOSE I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." Rom 9:17-18. Jesus said "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." Matthew 11:25-27. So, 2 Pet 3:9 the "not willing that any should perish" if you read that letter in context, 2 Pet 1:1 says "To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours." As far as salvation for all men verses, Paul was refuting the false notion of his time that God was only desiring to save just the Jews and 1 Tim 2:2 says to pray "for kings and all who are in authority" because as humans WE DON'T KNOW WHO THE ELECT ARE SO WE PRAY FOR EVERYONE! That's what it means in verse 4 by saying "all men." Amos 3:2 God said "of all the nations of the earth I have only known you." For centuries God passed over the majority of humankind because this verse isn't about knowledge it's about relationship. And it isn't because God foresaw Israel was more righteous then the other nations because sometimes Israel was more sinful then the pagan nations see 2 Kings 21:9. Only those who were predestined to be saved will be see Acts 13:48, Ephesians 1:4-5, Eph 1:11, Romans 9:11-23, John 6:37. 1 Samuel 3:14 God said “Therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.” That's Limited atonement.
I'll help you out.
I finished this video. And I'm like Arminian and believe people can fail salvation from this scripture I found Galatians 5:19-21 that when sinning that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians was Paul's teachings, proves it can fail eternal salvation. Grandpa believed he couldn't go to Hell, and Arminians believe he could.
I'm against suicide. I was depressed also to suicidal. I almost did suicide as a 5-Point Calvinist. And these scriptures got me more hope.
I became more Arminian now from these scriptures I posted on here. I believe people can fail salvation.
Loving God is wanting to be useful for him much. What if a person could do that much of his time? And I enjoy working from this. People who enjoy working. When it's more likely to be boring to non-Christians.
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Mark 9:33 (V)They came to Capernaum; and when He was in (W)the house, He began to question them, "What were you discussing on the way?"
.
Mark 9:34 But they kept silent, for on the way (X)they had discussed with one another which of them was the greatest.
.
Mark 9:35 Sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, "(Y)If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all."
.
This is for Christian world domination. Why to raise kids Christians. God Son Jesus said similarly to whoever is useful the most is the best merited of the apostles. Useful merit for eternal rewards and competition with other Christians. With God Son Lord Jesus Christ faith teaching, people will want to be useful for the kingdom of Heaven, which usefulness happens on Earth and if any other place. We need to help this world as much as we can!
This text could motivate, supposed to be Christian people, to do all types of usefulness. Chores, volunteering, grade school, high school, college, and work. Good people, this world needs them.
I know this is an old video, but one thing you should have reiterated is that prevenient grace is given to all men, not just those who receive God's saving grace. So as not to confuse those being indoctrinated by the false and horrid doctrine of Calvinism, it's important to remind them that "God calls all men everywhere to be saved", this is prevenient grace. God also gives all men the time and ability to choose to respond to His call of free grace, either to receive or reject it. Therefore on judgement day "no man will be without excuse".
However, the TULIP followers God, could save everyone if He wanted to but doesn't. Instead he prefers to force them to rebel against Him, and then throws them into hell for all eternity for doing so, so that with joy He can watch them burn in hell throughout all eternity for his own glory, even "children a span long". The calvinist god is the most wretched of monsters and I'm so thankful that he doesn't actually exist. Even the devil is not as cruel as he is.
A recent biblestudy (or lack of BIBLEstudy) our church has a bunch of small groups doing has this borderline-heretical concept of prevenient grace stuff.
It's like we're constantly lighting fires and putting them out as we go through the study.
Want to really screw people up and make the word seem far more illusive and wild than it is....
Bring prevenient grace into a discussion. Lol
What a hilariously bad man-made idea.
Allah, the Calvinist God. Capricious, whimsical, and "sovereign". Kind of like the North Korean leader Kim Jong-un. Or maybe an alcoholic Father who beats his children one day for eating cookies and the next day he beats them because they won't eat the cookies. It's not just illogical, it is insane. The only way thinking people could embrace this "doctrine" is to buy into just one distorted idea and leave the rest of scripture behind. I feel bad for them, because it is like a brain washing cult.
Watch the video, "Why I'm Not a Calvinist" by Bible scholar Ben Witherington: th-cam.com/video/KjUYw6Vg0bQ/w-d-xo.html
Calvinist people are oftentimes parroting their heroes and refuse to learn about what Arminians believe in..
Arminianism says without grace, none can come to him in faith.
Ok, but the issue at hand is what is grace? It comes down to if people or totally deprived or not. Arminian have to change what grace actually is because their core argument stems from this idea that the lost are only wounded in their sins and not the biblical doctrine that they are actually dead in their sins. If you get ability/inability wrong then you get grace wrong.
@@3n1fss you have no idea what Arminians believe.
we hold to Total depravity and original sin and Say apart from Grace nobody responds to God.
were you and I are going to part ways and Dipper is that you're going to say that Grace is only given to a select few Elite,and the rest are passed over..
and if that was the case how are they responsible for rejecting that they could never have accepted..
@@3n1fss if you keep repeating the same regurgitation that you obviously got from a dead Presbyterian or from your calvinistic preacher.then I'm afraid you're not really listening to what I have said.
Arminians do in fact a firm total depravity..John Wesley did and others didn't and I even get accused of being a calvinist on the regular because I affirm total depravity in high regard ..I should any Wesleyan :
I challenge you to look up online if Arminian hold to Total depravity.
if you're willing to go beyond your calvinistic Echo chamber and look for the answers you will see that we are very much semi augustinian.
but if you keep repeating the same talking point then I'm afraid you're not really interested in the true conversation or in actually learning some stuff that I'm trying to teach you.
This “prevenient” Grace which God bestows upon a person sounds a lot like “predestination”… congrats buddy, your reformed!
congratulations on your miscalculated & misinformed narrative: you misrepresented Wesleyan theology.
@@rauldelarosa2768 - 🤣🤣🤣 He took the alphabet challenge right into deformed theology.
@@redfaux74 huh?
@@rauldelarosa2768 - I believe what he's doing is thinking "switching a few letters makes our theology the same as his". There is nothing reformed about Calvinism. It is not Biblical from cover to cover.
@@redfaux74 Calvinist emphasis is reformed in the sense that it's Protestant.. however there's a narrative that they are pushing to try to hijack the term reformed and Protestant even.... they've succeeded in promoting the term reformed as calvinistic in many circles and in general.
You rightly identify a central misrepresentation (Bruce Ware for instance) of Calvinists. Attacking a strawman apparently wasn't covered in Dr. Ware's schooling. Secondly, a loving God gives men free will so we can choose to love God and love each other. Soteriologically we may gain additional free will to choose to follow God and choose to make him Lord through the power of the HS, but this in no way a generalization about our lack f free will per se. We gain more freedom, but it well may be the case that God's knowledge of how an individual would respond is what is driving the HS' action. Except for arbitrary proclaimation by Calvinist! Even Calvin admitted his view was troubling. He fell back on describing it as "Mysterious."
We can now more accurately represent it as HERESY!
None of what you stated has any biblical support. Free agency does not equal moral free agency. Scripture nowhere makes the argument that people are free moral agents.
Yes it is very much so. Its heresy
This guy is proof texting and assuming that 2 Peter is in references to every individual, instead of using the context that was already given that Peter is speaking specifically about the elect.
Did you just call the eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent creator of the universe capricious and not worthy of our love because He is sovereign? Humble yourself sinful human.
The answer is yes, you don’t need to waste 6 minutes to see this :))
Unfortunately you’re like all people that try to explain reformed theology you don’t tell the truth about it, and you never use the Scriptures from Romans that definitely teach reformed way of salvation.
The video was about truth, not the Reformed Heresy.
It’s not random those Hey created for salvation is part of creating them. Is he the potter or not? Does it matter what a human thinks about God in what God decides. No. If you can’t swallow it then your not saved
We need to be honest. Calvinists are so heavily indoctrinated that they don't even attempt to use logic. They must go back, ask their Calvinist teacher (master) what to think. They certainly won't go to The Bible for their answer because that would turn them away from Calvinism.
Any 3 year old child could answer this simple puzzle.
Mommy made 2 fresh baked pies before her child got out of bed, one apple and one cherry. I'm going to GIVE you a choice to pick one for dessert. You can even choose NOT to eat dessert. But no matter WHAT you choose.... did you, as a 3 year old, MAKE the pies? Did that child in any way, from beginning to end, have anything to do with making or even thinking about making either of those 2 pies? That child may not ever have had pie before in their 3 years of life. Maybe not even have heard (or seen) of pie.
Salvation is the same. God made it, authored it. 1,000 years before you and despite your choice. Yes or no it remains the same. But God gave you the choice. Regardless of your choice it changes God nor His character one bit. It adds to Him nothing nor removes from Him not one iota. But we all have that choice.
Only an imbecile could mess that simple puzzle up. But a Calvinist will defend some nonsense to say we cannot make our own choices. It won't make any sense but they'll defend their human indoctrination of Calvinism. And they'll get mad about it too.
Is Calvinism from the devil?
It certainly is not from God.
Actually, it's worse than that, it's from man.
@@originaldanman Everything that happens in history has been decreed/Predestined before the world was created see Eph 1:11, Proverbs 16:33 and Amos 3:6. And yes even when terrible things happen, I know it's hard for some people to accept but look what happened when David sinned against God and one of Davids punishments was that God told him that he was going to use Davids own son to shame his Father by Absalom Absalom doing something immoral to his Fathers concubines in front of all of Israel, see 2 Samuel 12:11-12 God said "Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun." Notice how God said "I WILL DO THIS THING."That was fulfilled in 2 Samuel 16:21-22. Jesus did not die for every single person ever and Jesus didn't die to make people savable. He died to save his elect. In John 17:9 Jesus said that he does not pray for the world. The word world is used in different contexts, in that context he's talking about the non elect. In John 3:16 world means that he purchased people from every tribe, tongue and nation Rev 5:9 and for the children of God scattered abroad John 11:52. Some have been "long beforehand marked out for condemnation" Jude 4 and "appointed to doom." 1 Peter 2:8. About Pharaoh God said “For this VERY PURPOSE I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." Rom 9:17-18. Jesus said "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." Matthew 11:25-27. So, 2 Pet 3:9 the "not willing that any should perish" if you read that letter in context, 2 Pet 1:1 says "To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours." As far as salvation for all men verses, Paul was refuting the false notion of his time that God was only desiring to save just the Jews and 1 Tim 2:2 says to pray "for kings and all who are in authority" because as humans WE DON'T KNOW WHO THE ELECT ARE SO WE PRAY FOR EVERYONE! That's what it means in verse 4 by saying "all men." Amos 3:2 God said "of all the nations of the earth I have only known you." For centuries God passed over the majority of humankind because this verse isn't about knowledge it's about relationship. And it isn't because God foresaw Israel was more righteous then the other nations because sometimes Israel was more sinful then the pagan nations see 2 Kings 21:9. Only those who were predestined to be saved will be see Acts 13:48, Ephesians 1:4-5, Eph 1:11, Romans 9:11-23, John 6:37. 1 Samuel 3:14 God said “Therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.” That's Limited atonement.
@@glennishammont7414 Everything that happens in history has been decreed/Predestined before the world was created see Eph 1:11, Proverbs 16:33 and Amos 3:6. And yes even when terrible things happen, I know it's hard for some people to accept but look what happened when David sinned against God and one of Davids punishments was that God told him that he was going to use Davids own son to shame his Father by Absalom Absalom doing something immoral to his Fathers concubines in front of all of Israel, see 2 Samuel 12:11-12 God said "Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun." Notice how God said "I WILL DO THIS THING."That was fulfilled in 2 Samuel 16:21-22. Jesus did not die for every single person ever and Jesus didn't die to make people savable. He died to save his elect. In John 17:9 Jesus said that he does not pray for the world. The word world is used in different contexts, in that context he's talking about the non elect. In John 3:16 world means that he purchased people from every tribe, tongue and nation Rev 5:9 and for the children of God scattered abroad John 11:52. Some have been "long beforehand marked out for condemnation" Jude 4 and "appointed to doom." 1 Peter 2:8. About Pharaoh God said “For this VERY PURPOSE I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." Rom 9:17-18. Jesus said "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." Matthew 11:25-27. So, 2 Pet 3:9 the "not willing that any should perish" if you read that letter in context, 2 Pet 1:1 says "To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours." As far as salvation for all men verses, Paul was refuting the false notion of his time that God was only desiring to save just the Jews and 1 Tim 2:2 says to pray "for kings and all who are in authority" because as humans WE DON'T KNOW WHO THE ELECT ARE SO WE PRAY FOR EVERYONE! That's what it means in verse 4 by saying "all men." Amos 3:2 God said "of all the nations of the earth I have only known you." For centuries God passed over the majority of humankind because this verse isn't about knowledge it's about relationship. And it isn't because God foresaw Israel was more righteous then the other nations because sometimes Israel was more sinful then the pagan nations see 2 Kings 21:9. Only those who were predestined to be saved will be see Acts 13:48, Ephesians 1:4-5, Eph 1:11, Romans 9:11-23, John 6:37. 1 Samuel 3:14 God said “Therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.” That's Limited atonement.
@@originaldanman ahahaha good one
Arminism is essentially ' diet calvernism ' it comes from the same faulty assumption of Augustine s ideas on theology. Avoid both systems.
What do you suggest then?.full blown Pelagian teaching?
John Cassian
Good argument. Jk.