Broodlord 'bug' SHOULD BE FIXED. it's absolutely mind baffling that a unit has a maximum 10 range but has a 50% attack speed penalty unless you attack from 9 range.
I need to see some Hydralisk stimpack plus Droppolords with queens Overlords drop creep, queens ready to transfuse, Hydras stutter step in! The ultimate zerg strategy, just playing terran!
The only problem I could see with that is that Hydra dash is hive tech and generally queen + droppo push hits pre-7 minutes (at least that's what it seems like in my games). Don't you usually delay even the Pit if you're doing that?
If the Mothership is too good in ZvP, I would rather them do something to make Zerg air more interesting rather than snub the Mommaship, it's one of Protoss 'spectacle mechanics' and imo it deserves to have good screentime.
yeah I'd say to buff the Corruptor and Broodlord cause you would be forced to go into Corruptor to deal with the mothership and then need to be able to transition to something useful after its gone.
Lowko, I love your casting, and your videos, but mate, I just took a glance at your TH-cam home page and I do believe you're using your "OMG MINDBLOWN" Lowstock face a bit too much.
1:24 - I know this is hardly the most important thing, but, the Golden Age of Piracy spanned the 1600s and 1700s, and Starcraft II takes place in the 2500s at the dawn of the century. That ain't "thousands of years".
I reckon there's at least a span of 50 years across the games tbh. Raynor is the only one who didn't age appropriately to that but he's also constantly in environments that probably preserve life or smth. Mengsk for sure came across to me as a "young guy" in SC1 and Kerrigan was presented as being the queen of blades for a long time (the first time that is)
@@Helycon Nowhere close, the original game and Brood War took place over a year; the Terran prologue was in December of 2499, and by 2501 it was post-Brood War.
@@Knowbody42 Last night your mom cast abduct on my Nydus worm, and unloaded my entire Nydus network. Afterwards, she cast spawn Broodlings, which is why we're able to have this conversation.
I still don't see this ability as anything more than lesser Blink. It's a click to target ability that seems to cover less distance, the hydra will most likely still be hit by most ranged attacks and has a longer cooldown than blink. It also seems disingenuous to compare it to stim like I've heard from a few other people.
@@laureloneiros1500 And being another active ability in a zerg army with all the speelcasters does not help. I dont know, reduce the amount of speed and make a passive that works if the units has more/less 50% hp, like if hydra has more than 50% hp than gets a speed boost, i even think giving them +1 range during that window is good, or like when hydra hp is less than 50% gains the buffs during x amount of time, has x cooldown for it to work.
I noticed something weird right now while watching; As someone who mainly watches SCII and not play (Have barely played a handful of PvP games since 2010), I've never tought of Lurkers as a lategame/tier 3 unit. Compared to the other tier 3 units out there it just doesn't fit, as it's so restrictive in its use. I've personally thought of it as a tier 2+ (used to the + instead of .5 from HoMM3), but definetly not along the lines of Carries, Tempests, BCs, Thor etc. Today is the first day I've heard it refered to as a tier 3 unit (or rather " doesn't quite feel tier 3")
@@TrenchWife The Ghost nerf apparently makes Ultras viable in ZvT now, because there just aren't enough snipes, even with mass Ghost, for Terran to just wave their magic eraser over all of them anymore, but Immortals still melt Ultras so they'll never be viable in ZvP.
Dash doesn't actually imply legs. The only implication is a sharp sudden movement; the origin of the word seems to come from Scandinavian languages with the meaning being "to strike." On another point entirely: I really hope they take another look at fixing the Brood Lord bug. Try it out in its current state but with the bug fixed, then try balancing it from there.
If it's just speed boost and not attack cooldown reduction dash certainly makes more sense than frenzy. Could be something more innovative like "quicklslither" -- or a proper zergy biology based name.. I wonder if autocast for the dash whatever would make sense.. So you could use it just for covering ground automatically activating without giving new move command as well as "tactically" without needing to click every time the cooldown goes of. Yeah I suppose they should test the broodlords "fixed" - really strange to rollback even that. BLs don't seem OP.. Also - what if they had the ability to go to cocoon and come back as corruptors returning the resources after some time in a cocoon?
@@Jawzah Personally, as a non-competitive player I wonder if Brood Lords would work with a medevac-esque speed boost cooldown. "Soar" is available as a one-word verb ability after all. Not sure if returning to an air-to-air is the fix they need, but in general a strategic-scale positioning boost to them feels warranted.
@@BibbleForp I don't think you want to add energy or cooldown based ability but they could have just more max speed and but accelerate slowly to it automatically.. I'we not really played SC2 expect for bit f testing back but have watched it.. AFAIK zerg do good in the highest level but at the semi-competitive level at high end of the ladder they're rarer so you might not want to add elements that require much more skill or "attention resources". Perhaps simply a researchable max speed upgrade would be just fine.
I agree - I think he was caught off guard on the ground transition and wasn't ready to think on his feet. I think he could have done quite a bit of damage with them if he was pro-active
Corruptor pee used the way bc teleport is used is highly underutilized IMO. If you have vision on the edges of thier base you can cat piss on a bunch of separate buildings, forces a serious response.
The solution to the zerg vs mama issue seems to me to be to buff abduction. Just add to the ability a root or spore effect on targets that can't be yanked. The end result is that it works the same against every other target, but against the mothership, it will pin it in place. The protoss player will then have to decide between defending the mothership from a likely bad position, and making the rest of their force vulnerable, or sacrificing it to spare the rest. The big shift from before the patch simply makes it so that the protoss has some agency in the death of the mothership.
Official definition of DASH - "run or travel somewhere in a great hurry". I think the community is being unnecessarily butt hurt about this name. Dash clearly can mean to TRAVEL (go from one place to another, typically over a distance of some length) somewhere in a hurry. Can it mean to run with legs? Yes. Does it have to mean to run with legs? No. If I say to someone "I am going to dash to the store real quick." (The store is ten km away) I don't think anyone's response would be "oh YoU ArE rUnNING tHeRe?!"
I don't care about the definition of dash. My concern is giving a Zerg unit a very earthen upgrade name. Frenzy is appropriate although I would have liked to see an attack speed increase as well.
I laughed way too hard at this but I do concur that it is an 'unnecessary butt hurt.' 😂 They could call it the 'slither faster' ability and someone would still find a fault in it. Despite it being the absolute best descriptor given the anatomy of the Hydra lisk
I think, for the mothership, adding some type of skill check like moving it away from the viper causes it to not do anything, but if it is abducted while still or advancing forward it will move the full distance. This way it balanced the "ladder heroes" experience as well as making a fun little minigame for the pros.
Zerg HAD lategame. Idk maybe if infestors got a hive-tech upgrade or two to give them back some of their old power, then zerg would have a backbone in the lategame. Idk tho maybe it's just mass overseer like rogue was doing
Wouldnt this Air Zerg issue be resolved by re-introducing scourge? Werent they relatively cheaper than Corruptors? The resource/supply required to nuke a Mothership wont be a long-term commitment.
SPOILER ALARM From these games (not including early all ins) its basically: Game longer than 20min=Protoss W less than 20min=Zerg W Sounds like zerg might need late game changes, but maybe Serral can cook something up, lets see
At 20:52 you asked what can he do with the corrupted and honestly the corrosive acid ability on corrupted is amazing in a situation where the opponent doesn't have enough air or AA to counter them. He can wipe entire bases with those things.
Hydralisk's new ability has an effect very similar to the one Kerrigan's hydralisks in SC2 COOP have who is called indeed "Frenzy". Maybe that's why they are considering to put that name instead.
I think "Lunge" would be a better name for the Hydra ability. "Frenzy" implies aggression as well as mobility, but it's literally only a 1 second movement buff (no attack speed, range, or damage increase).
name for the hydra dash should be "specialized locomotion." phrasing from the paper by Jennifer Rieser at Emory on the physics of sidewinder viper movement
*Lunge* Lowko idk if you have say in how the balance team works but that's the name i suggest because that exactly describes what the hydras are doing. They're lunging forward so, *Lunge*
So there's a couple fun campaign things that tickle my fancy here. The hydralisk animation as well as icon are both ripped from the Heart of the Swarm campaign Hydralisk upgrade Frenzy which increases their attack speed, much worse in multiplayer but I'd personally love to see a bigger Hydralisk buff. And the energy overcharge ability's animation is what I believe to be a rip of the Guardian Shell ability from Legacy of the Void campaign, which plays to show you that the unit has a temporary, regenerating shield that prevents their death for a few seconds. Fun tidbits, I'd love to see more campaign abilities in multiplayer. Dragoons back in the game when?
On Amygdala LC, zerg should build the hatchery a few squares away from the golden mineral fields. This means less efficient mining, but the hatchery can no longer be targeted by stalkers.
I really liked the 3rd game's Zerg perspective, going through their opening build one unit at a time. That was super insightful, and it helped keep track of exactly what the Zerg was doing without getting "interrupted" by the Protoss. What a good way to learn!
It is possible that the mothership is too strong currently, but I doubt that this series allows us to confirm these points: 1. Caustic spray was never used (with 30 corruptors, you should be able to cause serious damage). 2. Tell me, is 30 corruptors for 3 tempests + mothership really effective? 3. Is it normal that there are neither vipers nor infestors in the composition? 4. Why did the broodlord transition take so long (or never happened in game 1)? 5. In both games with the mothership, ShoWTimE was ahead. 6. Yes, the mothership saved the fourth base thanks to cloaking, but Shin saw the air transition, which, in my opinion, was a mistake on his part not to add an overseer.
Bigtime agree. Many times there were 12+ corruptors flying above stalkers, doing nothing. For how long they were idle, you could spray almost every building in the protoss main with one corruptor each and actually kill them all!
While listening to the cast about the mothership, im wondering rather than focusing on its difficulty in being killed due to abduct, instead to tune the spells it has. it would still be able to live but its utility could be adjusted with that in mind.
Hey Lowko, what if, the Broodlords could be 'Salvaged', sort of like the way Terran salvage buildings. But, instead of reclaiming resources, Zero gains a number of Scourge units?
Yes! Got the last of my Halloween candy, thanks for the cast! I really like the El Dorado, or whatever it's called, the first map. The last map, initially, seemed cool but, Tarran will have a field day denying the gold base.
Maybe Corruptors should have the ability to self destruct into Zerglings or Locusts. I would also like to see Queens being morphed into a dedicated AA unit or something done with Swarm hosts.
I really think the balance council needs to rethink the way they think. What they're doing is that they want Zerg to play one way, right? They're telling the Zergs "Stop relying on corruptors to deal with air units, we gave you Hydra dash (which Shin never bothered with past the first game mind you) and we buffed Microbial Shroud, use those instead." But Zerg aren't interested in following the balance council's script. They're still relying on corruptors, and you can bet that the non-Zergs on the council are blaming the players for not using shroud like that want Zerg to. But that's just the thing, players will play the way THEY want to, and nothing the council does will change that thinking overnight.
Whoever thought that hydras could ever be viable against a mothership, with these changes, is delusional. It'd need to break attack targeting, like Blink does. Maybe turn Dash into Dig, like the Pokemon attack? Have the hydra dive underground and suddenly appear closer to the target?
@@user-nh2bf4to7g Still will have the problem of ability priority, zerg already has 2 casters that you use in a army, infestors and vipers, for pro play i dont think they have that hard time doing it but for everyone else that already has to micro other casters hydra having an active ability is bad. I dont know, i can only see a good solution making it a passive that activates in certain conditions for a certain amount of time.
Microbial shroud does not help against mothership. It helps against airtoss. Mothership + ground makes both microbial and dash nearly useless. I feel like Zerg can now really use a T3 unit that can shoot air. Thors are buffed, Mothership is clearly buffed and Zerg got basically nothing (Ultra push around at the cost of speed nerf, so a eensy weensy tiny buff compared to the other races, which already had the better late game than Zerg).
52:47 Although Lowko criticized the positions of the neutral objects like boulders but I like that map for its stunning visual. Sometimes I tend to forget and not appreciate enough for Starcraft II's artistic aesthetics, being one of the most appealing RTS games, if not the most, even till this point. It surely looks pretty.
These games are soooo good. Loving the new games on the new patch. Definitely moving things in the right direction. Hopefully Protoss finds ways to deal with early Terran pressure without overcharge because this new ability is sick!
Shin, the absolut madlad, testing zerg on the PTR all by himself. 🎉 Regarding the balance: I think the hydra dash should be one tier earlier. Putting more pressure on toss will make it harder to get to the mothership. Paying 400/400 on a single unit should be a risk since the reward is finally high enough
sometimes I think if your tilted, in a game and you know you lost, you can lose with dignity in the sense that you spend that time to chill out nad lose well and maybe can come back ,but I think he knew, awhile ago... showtime didn't do a good cleanup of the area in the main... leaving any unit is not good, that would of allwoed him to mine that location right away. Having a bit of a nydus fleet is great as they have thefaster reaction to ab movement, and void rays are fairly weak against hydralisks and .. to some degre queens, but they can eat lurkers and buildings...
In that case how about this ? Midgame upgrade : return to the source All selected corruptors are consumed and hatcheries produce as many larvas as the quantity of corruptors consumed. Half of the resources spent on them are salvaged.
Giving that broodlord buff for end game purposes will hopefully balance out that segment of the game. It'll also make TvZ more challenging, while keeping the mothership buff.
This game look more and more cinematicly SC2, especially that 19:27 worm retreat, hydralisk dash, protoss having technology and magic ability (storm, force field we are using it more) and the spaceship marvel a mothership
Okay, if zerg air needs a buff, how about this: give mutalisks the ability to fly _inside_ protoss capital ships and destroy them from within. They're small enough to do so fairly easily (~20 ft wingspan, I think) and it worked well enough on the Gantrithor.
I’d like to see a brood lord buff, or just the bug fix. Let them act as the late game option for Zerg that Lowko mentioned was missing. That way Zerg can pivot from corruptors against the mothership
Idea to improve hydra ability. Call it slither, and make the hydras burrow, move rapidly, and unburrow at location. Basically the same as now but underground.
maybe make it so that - only once a minimum number of vipers (say, 3) have a hook in the mothership, does it start moving towards them - and similarly, only if you get a viper close enough to touch the mothership does neural parasite have a chance (50/50?) of working
would love to see the bug fix on the broods brought back in and see how it goes then with this match up. not sure if it would make that much diff but small adjustment right.
This is a genuine question from me, but what about parasitic bombing the mothership? Not because that would blow it up, but if you want to hide your skytoss army, you have to clump them around the MS, and parasitic have an AOE effect around the inflicted unit, which is a huge AOE in this case. Also they move slowly just as the tempests, etc.
Think zerg needs infestors mid game and maybe just cut out some of the commitment to lurkers to start the spire transition sooner. Mid to late game just seems really tricky to navigate. Gg by showtime
What if hydralisks used dash/frenzy/lurch to flank the mothership and fought under microbial shroud? Would their speed and damage be enough to snipe it, thus allowing the normal army to swoop in?
IMO the solution to zerg lategame is to give them a leviathan. Give it the ability to eat (at least) two BCs at a time (and probably other stuff) like the Kodo devour from WC3 except with multiple slots. I had a dream where this was the case so I know that's a good source of balance ideas. (Ironically even in the dream it was Winter talking about how rarely it gets used it couldn't have been that good.) Maybe make it the Wings of Liberty campaign leviathan that (if controlled by a player after you gave it to yourself World Editor) could literally spawn infinite broods and mutas for free like infested Terrans. That would seem reasonable to me. Or maybe just give them immortal Kerrigan from 0:00 but Terrans get the artifact in that MU and protoss get to summon the Gantrithor once per game.
anybody played with the point targeted dash? it seems like a much harder version to use then click right? because youll still have to issue another command after to have your hydras start attacking again. seems like a very strange choice of functionality
What if the hydralisk frenzy ability gave the hydra plus 1 range and attack for the 1 second dash but also another 2 seconds so they can snipe motherships. Idk if this would work, just thinking out loud
Abduct should make the viper and mothership meet in the middle. Trading a viper for a mothership sounds unfair, but protoss is already favored after that exchange when both maxed imo
I dont quite understand the fuss about the mothership. It’s not like all the other protoss units cant be abducted, right? If only the mothership remains, good luck winning the game against a maxed out zerg. Plus, the mothership no longer has a passive cloaking field so it’s not as impactfull as it used to be. I guess people just need some used to it.
Oh, i have missunderstood the new eneregy transfer ability: I thought it would be an ability for the batteries, thx for clarification. Edit: but what i don't get at 5:41 showtime uses the transfer energy ability but the nexus shown atm has not gone down in energy at all? So has he used the other Nexus? But then: What is the range of this ability? Hydradash should be increased to 1,2s - 1,5s duration imo (isn't it v1,0s right now?)
I’ve big saying for years the biggest Zerg Protoss imbalance is the abduction, it does three things, has good range, it instantly pulls, and pulls far. Range seems ok. But pull distance or pull time, those are slightly off. Either reduce the pull distance or have it so it takes a moment similar to other attaching abilities, before it pulls. Right now it makes the game a slog and not fun to watch, but for example maybe if the ability took a second to attach before it pulled it would give Protoss move incentive to fight instead of always running, similar to killing a disrupter before it pops. Speaking of disrupters, they are the most gimmicky thing in this game by far and it’s not even close. I’m suprised pros use them at all, they are so volatile but any good pro will dodge them no problem. I’d like to see disrupter damage decreased with speed increased. Make it less gimmicky but more forgiving for the other player. Similar to the other siege weapons not this awkward mini game.
a buff to Curruptors as they "are kinda trash" :D Zerg fliers and anti fliers are just way behind and need a buff, then we can let them have their OP Mothership. or let Zerg build the Leviathan and give it flying locust it spawns periodically and the Bio-plasmic Discharge (cost energy) with a long range, so a range that it can hit the mothership. we could also get Scurges
I have asked for the better part of a decade why Protoss has a legendary unit and Zerg and Terran doesn’t. The leviathan and Hyperion should have been put in the game at heart of the swarm
@@Zerphy08 Yea I dont understand why blizzard gave up on the hero unit almost immediately, while keeping the idea of the mothership around to tinker with. Each race was suppose to have something filling the Mothership position
well yea, i think that Zeg have missed something for late game for a very long time, it leads to most zerg players trying to end games as fast as they can or be death balled later in the game.
20:45: Did Shin and Lowko both forget Caustic Spray exists? Corrupters are similar to Swarm Host - nearly free Nexus kill on a short CD. Seems like he forgot about Lings too... 31:15: What was Shin thinking advancing into that narrow choke made by the trapped Lings?? 37:50: Gonna guess that would be because he lost all his production ;p 1:04:20: Finally!
I wonder if a good response to the Mothership to be just ignore it. Go Ultra/Roach/Ling, take over the ground. The Mothership does a lot of damage, but it’s split - Ultras should be able to just ignore it, and lings could probably just count it as a cost as they run by.
While they clearly still need some fine tuning, I think a lot of the changes/additions in the new patch are pretty cool and will lead to interesting new playstyles. But instead of un-nerfing (or re-buffing?) the Mothership, I think Zerg should have access to a Leviathan to boost their late game.
I just watch the final of League of Legend with the French and some English commentator and one thing striked me : they are just audiodecripting the game and say blablab good blabla bad blabla awesome ... Its like a football game player 1 player 2 player 1 player two again, trying to go left.. oups that failed.......... You actually do a good job highlighting the transition time, the threats, the things to think about, the economy, what its allowing / preventing, the interest of this tech vs another etc. Actually giving you the meaning behind the strat and allowing us to understand the game through your experience. Way better!
I think a funny idea for the viper abduct and mothership interaction would be like a tug of war scenario Where you’d need like 4 vipers to pull it all the way otherwise both units will move slowly with a tether (that can be destroyed) with the mothership having the control of movement and the vipers being dragged along
If Zerg can heal with queens and natural regeneration. Terran with Medivac and repair. Can Protoss have like a sentry to heal that cost energy. Like a bubble heal. Since batter OC is gone. Idk.
Wasn’t frenzy the name of the hydralisk ability in the campaign? And that gave an attack speed increase on top of a movement increase, so I don’t think it should be called frenzy I think dash is just fine
Broodlord 'bug' SHOULD BE FIXED. it's absolutely mind baffling that a unit has a maximum 10 range but has a 50% attack speed penalty unless you attack from 9 range.
Goes to show how stupid the council is
agreed, plus a seen on this replay, broodlords sucks atm (too slow, no damage)
Do you guys remember the brood lord spore crawler armada meta last year, I don’t want that back tbh
i agree if you want to nerf the broodlord just nerf the broodlord, not revert a bug that nerfs the unit but it's not described on the stat of the unit
Broodlords are there to break a defensive stalemate… by losing the game.
I need to see some Hydralisk stimpack plus Droppolords with queens
Overlords drop creep, queens ready to transfuse, Hydras stutter step in!
The ultimate zerg strategy, just playing terran!
If you're Terran u can't do that
Zerran ftw 😊
Sounds perfect, just play another race
The Overmind from OG SC kind of used that strategy and the Terrans also bit of it the other way around.. :P
The only problem I could see with that is that Hydra dash is hive tech and generally queen + droppo push hits pre-7 minutes (at least that's what it seems like in my games). Don't you usually delay even the Pit if you're doing that?
If the Mothership is too good in ZvP, I would rather them do something to make Zerg air more interesting rather than snub the Mommaship, it's one of Protoss 'spectacle mechanics' and imo it deserves to have good screentime.
Zerg should get the old Suicide Flyer unit. Maybe the Spore Crawler or the Brood Lord could be optionally switched to spawn them?
@@samtroflying upgrade for banelings?
As a zerg, I agree that mother ship should have her screen time. It should be a OH S*** moment when I see it on my screen.
yeah I'd say to buff the Corruptor and Broodlord cause you would be forced to go into Corruptor to deal with the mothership and then need to be able to transition to something useful after its gone.
I dont think it´s op. You can just kill off all the other flying units instead. SHin clearly over produced corrupters
Hello members! You have ~5 hours of early access to this video. Thanks for your support.
Not a member but I have been loving every video!
Thanks for the coverage of the new patch!
did u talk about Beavis&Butthead there at 35:41 ? he likes being stuck in the tube....for a while 😅
Lowko, I love your casting, and your videos, but mate, I just took a glance at your TH-cam home page and I do believe you're using your "OMG MINDBLOWN" Lowstock face a bit too much.
meow
Can we just don't make a new ability in a 100 hours video? Click bait. Unsubscribed and reported. Bye.
1:24 - I know this is hardly the most important thing, but, the Golden Age of Piracy spanned the 1600s and 1700s, and Starcraft II takes place in the 2500s at the dawn of the century. That ain't "thousands of years".
🤯
I reckon there's at least a span of 50 years across the games tbh. Raynor is the only one who didn't age appropriately to that but he's also constantly in environments that probably preserve life or smth. Mengsk for sure came across to me as a "young guy" in SC1 and Kerrigan was presented as being the queen of blades for a long time (the first time that is)
@@Helycon Nowhere close, the original game and Brood War took place over a year; the Terran prologue was in December of 2499, and by 2501 it was post-Brood War.
@@Helyconwhole SC1-SC2 (beside NCO with no clear age indication) whole thing takes in place in like 10 yrs which is kind of baffling in hindsight.
@@allhailderpfestor4839 SC1: 2499-2500
BW: 2500
WoL: 2504
HotS: 2505
LotV: 2506
"They enjoy being stuck... Saw that in a video once..."
Also, all Nydus networks route back to someone's mom's house, whose name is Brenda.
@@CubicIronPyrite Why did the Marine sneak into the Nydus worm? To 'love' your mother.
@@Knowbody42 Last night your mom cast abduct on my Nydus worm, and unloaded my entire Nydus network. Afterwards, she cast spawn Broodlings, which is why we're able to have this conversation.
Give Dropperlords the ability to throw garrisoned Banelings at air targets.
lol hahaha, isnt that just scourges?
@@Zergling. Scourge with a range attack instead of melee.
@@alfo149suicide bio carrier
@@Zergling. I prefer to think of it as diet carrier.
I still don't see this ability as anything more than lesser Blink.
It's a click to target ability that seems to cover less distance, the hydra will most likely still be hit by most ranged attacks and has a longer cooldown than blink.
It also seems disingenuous to compare it to stim like I've heard from a few other people.
Yes a lesser blink is a far better comparison. Stim lasts for ever, you can kill a whole base and mineral line.
It’s cool, but probably not nearly as good as some people make it out to be
@@laureloneiros1500 And being another active ability in a zerg army with all the speelcasters does not help.
I dont know, reduce the amount of speed and make a passive that works if the units has more/less 50% hp, like if hydra has more than 50% hp than gets a speed boost, i even think giving them +1 range during that window is good, or like when hydra hp is less than 50% gains the buffs during x amount of time, has x cooldown for it to work.
The speed is way too brief. It’s a shitty blink as you said and nowhere close to what stim offers
I noticed something weird right now while watching; As someone who mainly watches SCII and not play (Have barely played a handful of PvP games since 2010), I've never tought of Lurkers as a lategame/tier 3 unit. Compared to the other tier 3 units out there it just doesn't fit, as it's so restrictive in its use. I've personally thought of it as a tier 2+ (used to the + instead of .5 from HoMM3), but definetly not along the lines of Carries, Tempests, BCs, Thor etc. Today is the first day I've heard it refered to as a tier 3 unit (or rather " doesn't quite feel tier 3")
not to mention all Zerg "tier 3" units only exclusively target ground units.
@RndmBad that to
Right? They feel like midgame units and Ultras are just not good. (I'm hoping and praying their update makes them stronger.)
@@TrenchWife They need a charge skill like zealots
@@TrenchWife The Ghost nerf apparently makes Ultras viable in ZvT now, because there just aren't enough snipes, even with mass Ghost, for Terran to just wave their magic eraser over all of them anymore, but Immortals still melt Ultras so they'll never be viable in ZvP.
all those corruptors and not pissing on buildings nonstop
yeah they should be doing run-bys (fly-bys?)
@@gasmaster8437 sewage disposal run
Just goes to show there's refinement that can happen, which is good - keeps it from stagnating, in my opinion.
I guess it can be countered relatively easily by warping in high templar and give them enough energy instantly for storm?
@@ingrudmessenger1193 pre split ez
Zerg needs Leviathan.
Nah. The leviathan is lame af. Bring back the devourer but make it good.
Zerg needs a tier 3 that isn't trash.
@@mattstarbuck4878 true 😂
@@mattstarbuck4878 Like the brutalisk? an ultra that can attack air and ground
And Terran Hyperion 😂
Dash doesn't actually imply legs. The only implication is a sharp sudden movement; the origin of the word seems to come from Scandinavian languages with the meaning being "to strike."
On another point entirely: I really hope they take another look at fixing the Brood Lord bug. Try it out in its current state but with the bug fixed, then try balancing it from there.
"Dash" is actually a perfect name because to me a "dash" is a small amount of spice, and that's literally all that Hydras were given with this patch.
If it's just speed boost and not attack cooldown reduction dash certainly makes more sense than frenzy.
Could be something more innovative like "quicklslither" -- or a proper zergy biology based name..
I wonder if autocast for the dash whatever would make sense.. So you could use it just for covering ground automatically activating without giving new move command as well as "tactically" without needing to click every time the cooldown goes of.
Yeah I suppose they should test the broodlords "fixed" - really strange to rollback even that. BLs don't seem OP.. Also - what if they had the ability to go to cocoon and come back as corruptors returning the resources after some time in a cocoon?
@@Jawzah Personally, as a non-competitive player I wonder if Brood Lords would work with a medevac-esque speed boost cooldown. "Soar" is available as a one-word verb ability after all. Not sure if returning to an air-to-air is the fix they need, but in general a strategic-scale positioning boost to them feels warranted.
@@BibbleForp I don't think you want to add energy or cooldown based ability but they could have just more max speed and but accelerate slowly to it automatically.. I'we not really played SC2 expect for bit f testing back but have watched it.. AFAIK zerg do good in the highest level but at the semi-competitive level at high end of the ladder they're rarer so you might not want to add elements that require much more skill or "attention resources". Perhaps simply a researchable max speed upgrade would be just fine.
I don't understand why shin didn't go piss on Showtime's production
I agree - I think he was caught off guard on the ground transition and wasn't ready to think on his feet. I think he could have done quite a bit of damage with them if he was pro-active
Right? Don't even worry about the photons, they'll kill corruptors and free up supply. If Showtime responded, alls the better, lurker something.
Corruptor pee used the way bc teleport is used is highly underutilized IMO. If you have vision on the edges of thier base you can cat piss on a bunch of separate buildings, forces a serious response.
Wow, these conversations get weird very quickly when in a bus ;)
The solution to the zerg vs mama issue seems to me to be to buff abduction. Just add to the ability a root or spore effect on targets that can't be yanked.
The end result is that it works the same against every other target, but against the mothership, it will pin it in place. The protoss player will then have to decide between defending the mothership from a likely bad position, and making the rest of their force vulnerable, or sacrificing it to spare the rest.
The big shift from before the patch simply makes it so that the protoss has some agency in the death of the mothership.
53:36 Did you notice the rocks suddenly moving a bit? Looks kinda spooky
Official definition of DASH - "run or travel somewhere in a great hurry". I think the community is being unnecessarily butt hurt about this name. Dash clearly can mean to TRAVEL (go from one place to another, typically over a distance of some length) somewhere in a hurry. Can it mean to run with legs? Yes. Does it have to mean to run with legs? No. If I say to someone "I am going to dash to the store real quick." (The store is ten km away) I don't think anyone's response would be "oh YoU ArE rUnNING tHeRe?!"
I don't care about the definition of dash. My concern is giving a Zerg unit a very earthen upgrade name.
Frenzy is appropriate although I would have liked to see an attack speed increase as well.
Honestly I'm fine either way, but "Lunge", "Lurch", or even "Leap" just sound better than "Dash", especially for something without legs.
I laughed way too hard at this but I do concur that it is an 'unnecessary butt hurt.' 😂
They could call it the 'slither faster' ability and someone would still find a fault in it. Despite it being the absolute best descriptor given the anatomy of the Hydra lisk
I think, for the mothership, adding some type of skill check like moving it away from the viper causes it to not do anything, but if it is abducted while still or advancing forward it will move the full distance. This way it balanced the "ladder heroes" experience as well as making a fun little minigame for the pros.
Zerg HAD lategame. Idk maybe if infestors got a hive-tech upgrade or two to give them back some of their old power, then zerg would have a backbone in the lategame.
Idk tho maybe it's just mass overseer like rogue was doing
wow! new upload literally just after i got my fried rice and looking for something to watch while eat. Perfect timing XD
Wouldnt this Air Zerg issue be resolved by re-introducing scourge? Werent they relatively cheaper than Corruptors? The resource/supply required to nuke a Mothership wont be a long-term commitment.
SPOILER ALARM
From these games (not including early all ins) its basically: Game
longer than 20min=Protoss W
less than 20min=Zerg W
Sounds like zerg might need late game changes, but maybe Serral can cook something up, lets see
Give the brood an anti-air attack by throwing scourge. So they don't block (and don't have splash dmg).
Like a siege mode. This could be thor like. Short range but air scourge
At 20:52 you asked what can he do with the corrupted and honestly the corrosive acid ability on corrupted is amazing in a situation where the opponent doesn't have enough air or AA to counter them. He can wipe entire bases with those things.
hearing Lowko pretend to be a "boaty" mothership was hilarious!! HAHAHA had to rewatch it! :D 1:04:50
12:14 - it is basically hydralisk blink - also quick relocation with a cooldown, but doesn't ignores obstacles...
Hydralisk's new ability has an effect very similar to the one Kerrigan's hydralisks in SC2 COOP have who is called indeed "Frenzy". Maybe that's why they are considering to put that name instead.
In CO-OP they get an attack speed buff too. This isn’t even close really
It's also in HOTS,
I also wanna say it was in a version of SC2's 1V1, but got removed
Hydralisk Frenzy ability exists in the campaign and coop. It's auto-cast by default, and increases attack speed though.
Broodlords just don't do enough damage. They just got mostly ignored...
I think "Lunge" would be a better name for the Hydra ability.
"Frenzy" implies aggression as well as mobility, but it's literally only a 1 second movement buff (no attack speed, range, or damage increase).
name for the hydra dash should be "specialized locomotion." phrasing from the paper by Jennifer Rieser at Emory on the physics of sidewinder viper movement
maybe something a bit snappier, like SpeciaLowko
*Lunge*
Lowko idk if you have say in how the balance team works but that's the name i suggest because that exactly describes what the hydras are doing. They're lunging forward so,
*Lunge*
So there's a couple fun campaign things that tickle my fancy here. The hydralisk animation as well as icon are both ripped from the Heart of the Swarm campaign Hydralisk upgrade Frenzy which increases their attack speed, much worse in multiplayer but I'd personally love to see a bigger Hydralisk buff. And the energy overcharge ability's animation is what I believe to be a rip of the Guardian Shell ability from Legacy of the Void campaign, which plays to show you that the unit has a temporary, regenerating shield that prevents their death for a few seconds. Fun tidbits, I'd love to see more campaign abilities in multiplayer. Dragoons back in the game when?
last time I saw mothership being powerful was archon toilet
On Amygdala LC, zerg should build the hatchery a few squares away from the golden mineral fields. This means less efficient mining, but the hatchery can no longer be targeted by stalkers.
I really liked the 3rd game's Zerg perspective, going through their opening build one unit at a time. That was super insightful, and it helped keep track of exactly what the Zerg was doing without getting "interrupted" by the Protoss. What a good way to learn!
It is possible that the mothership is too strong currently, but I doubt that this series allows us to confirm these points:
1. Caustic spray was never used (with 30 corruptors, you should be able to cause serious damage).
2. Tell me, is 30 corruptors for 3 tempests + mothership really effective?
3. Is it normal that there are neither vipers nor infestors in the composition?
4. Why did the broodlord transition take so long (or never happened in game 1)?
5. In both games with the mothership, ShoWTimE was ahead.
6. Yes, the mothership saved the fourth base thanks to cloaking, but Shin saw the air transition, which, in my opinion, was a mistake on his part not to add an overseer.
Bigtime agree. Many times there were 12+ corruptors flying above stalkers, doing nothing. For how long they were idle, you could spray almost every building in the protoss main with one corruptor each and actually kill them all!
looks like staged fights from crying zerg players
@@gerritvb have you seen what an archon does to a clump of corruptors? they wouldn't have gotten through a single nexus
The archons weren't sitting around in the main. If he recalls you leave, but you have stopped the attack!
@@gerritvb There's like 20 immortals. getting the archon to stay at home does not stop the attack.
While listening to the cast about the mothership, im wondering rather than focusing on its difficulty in being killed due to abduct, instead to tune the spells it has. it would still be able to live but its utility could be adjusted with that in mind.
can't wait to see the 70% terran win rate on amygdala as they completely shut down any gold base usage with a single medivac
This is the first time i have ever seen a Lurker on hold fire, and it was a clever move :)
Hey Lowko, what if, the Broodlords could be 'Salvaged', sort of like the way Terran salvage buildings. But, instead of reclaiming resources, Zero gains a number of Scourge units?
Maybe add it as an active skill for the mothership so it's more of a timing than forever having it
Yes! Got the last of my Halloween candy, thanks for the cast!
I really like the El Dorado, or whatever it's called, the first map. The last map, initially, seemed cool but, Tarran will have a field day denying the gold base.
Maybe Corruptors should have the ability to self destruct into Zerglings or Locusts.
I would also like to see Queens being morphed into a dedicated AA unit or something done with Swarm hosts.
I really think the balance council needs to rethink the way they think. What they're doing is that they want Zerg to play one way, right? They're telling the Zergs "Stop relying on corruptors to deal with air units, we gave you Hydra dash (which Shin never bothered with past the first game mind you) and we buffed Microbial Shroud, use those instead."
But Zerg aren't interested in following the balance council's script. They're still relying on corruptors, and you can bet that the non-Zergs on the council are blaming the players for not using shroud like that want Zerg to. But that's just the thing, players will play the way THEY want to, and nothing the council does will change that thinking overnight.
Well shroud will not help vs storms and its more micro to have, even more when infestors overrides priority for abilities to hydras.
Whoever thought that hydras could ever be viable against a mothership, with these changes, is delusional. It'd need to break attack targeting, like Blink does.
Maybe turn Dash into Dig, like the Pokemon attack? Have the hydra dive underground and suddenly appear closer to the target?
@@user-nh2bf4to7g Still will have the problem of ability priority, zerg already has 2 casters that you use in a army, infestors and vipers, for pro play i dont think they have that hard time doing it but for everyone else that already has to micro other casters hydra having an active ability is bad.
I dont know, i can only see a good solution making it a passive that activates in certain conditions for a certain amount of time.
Microbial shroud does not help against mothership. It helps against airtoss. Mothership + ground makes both microbial and dash nearly useless. I feel like Zerg can now really use a T3 unit that can shoot air. Thors are buffed, Mothership is clearly buffed and Zerg got basically nothing (Ultra push around at the cost of speed nerf, so a eensy weensy tiny buff compared to the other races, which already had the better late game than Zerg).
52:47 Although Lowko criticized the positions of the neutral objects like boulders but I like that map for its stunning visual. Sometimes I tend to forget and not appreciate enough for Starcraft II's artistic aesthetics, being one of the most appealing RTS games, if not the most, even till this point. It surely looks pretty.
These games are soooo good. Loving the new games on the new patch. Definitely moving things in the right direction. Hopefully Protoss finds ways to deal with early Terran pressure without overcharge because this new ability is sick!
Shin, the absolut madlad, testing zerg on the PTR all by himself. 🎉
Regarding the balance: I think the hydra dash should be one tier earlier. Putting more pressure on toss will make it harder to get to the mothership. Paying 400/400 on a single unit should be a risk since the reward is finally high enough
sometimes I think if your tilted, in a game and you know you lost, you can lose with dignity in the sense that you spend that time to chill out nad lose well and maybe can come back ,but I think he knew, awhile ago... showtime didn't do a good cleanup of the area in the main... leaving any unit is not good, that would of allwoed him to mine that location right away. Having a bit of a nydus fleet is great as they have thefaster reaction to ab movement, and void rays are fairly weak against hydralisks and .. to some degre queens, but they can eat lurkers and buildings...
Lair tech +2 range to Spores
Hive Tech to make Roaches 1 supply (Ravagers still should have same)
And we are done for long time, hehe ;)
In that case how about this ?
Midgame upgrade : return to the source
All selected corruptors are consumed and hatcheries produce as many larvas as the quantity of corruptors consumed. Half of the resources spent on them are salvaged.
Thank you Lowko, your casts always brighten my day sir!
Giving that broodlord buff for end game purposes will hopefully balance out that segment of the game. It'll also make TvZ more challenging, while keeping the mothership buff.
Nice, clean, easy to read map names so far.
👍
This game look more and more cinematicly SC2, especially that 19:27 worm retreat, hydralisk dash, protoss having technology and magic ability (storm, force field we are using it more) and the spaceship marvel a mothership
35:47 thats it im tellin Mrs. Lowko
Okay, if zerg air needs a buff, how about this: give mutalisks the ability to fly _inside_ protoss capital ships and destroy them from within. They're small enough to do so fairly easily (~20 ft wingspan, I think) and it worked well enough on the Gantrithor.
Lowko, you so funny man. Killing me watching this one.
El Dorado seems like a map that will get vetoed in virtually every match once it's live. It's pretty cool for viewers though.
I wish Zerg got the Leviathan as a unit
the hydra dash ability should be called turbo wiggles instead
I’d like to see a brood lord buff, or just the bug fix. Let them act as the late game option for Zerg that Lowko mentioned was missing. That way Zerg can pivot from corruptors against the mothership
If corruptors could land like vikings with maybe just a single tech upgrade.
Like abducting tentacles or some other horror
26:50 You were the one asking for buffs for protoss without compensation nerfs :D
He beforehand said that abduction imunity is a bad idea. And that was before it was added too the test branch.
So what? It’s no big deal
To be fair he did not say to make abduct not work.
Idea to improve hydra ability. Call it slither, and make the hydras burrow, move rapidly, and unburrow at location. Basically the same as now but underground.
Frenzy is blink for the Zerg... Very interesting!
Shin-Showtime sounds like a streetfighter move! 😆
Dash is not Hydra Stim. It's Hydra Blink.
Mothership is immune to abduct. Can we make it immune to EMP as well? (It is big enough to have all electronics shielded)
See how terrans like it
"ABILITY OF THE YEAR"
No? Lowko?
Maybe 50% less distance abduction
maybe make it so that
- only once a minimum number of vipers (say, 3) have a hook in the mothership, does it start moving towards them
- and similarly, only if you get a viper close enough to touch the mothership does neural parasite have a chance (50/50?) of working
would love to see the bug fix on the broods brought back in and see how it goes then with this match up. not sure if it would make that much diff but small adjustment right.
This is a genuine question from me, but what about parasitic bombing the mothership? Not because that would blow it up, but if you want to hide your skytoss army, you have to clump them around the MS, and parasitic have an AOE effect around the inflicted unit, which is a huge AOE in this case. Also they move slowly just as the tempests, etc.
Think zerg needs infestors mid game and maybe just cut out some of the commitment to lurkers to start the spire transition sooner. Mid to late game just seems really tricky to navigate. Gg by showtime
Thanks for the video, Lowko! Hydras with too much sugar and they go fast! ❤
What if hydralisks used dash/frenzy/lurch to flank the mothership and fought under microbial shroud? Would their speed and damage be enough to snipe it, thus allowing the normal army to swoop in?
IMO the solution to zerg lategame is to give them a leviathan. Give it the ability to eat (at least) two BCs at a time (and probably other stuff) like the Kodo devour from WC3 except with multiple slots. I had a dream where this was the case so I know that's a good source of balance ideas.
(Ironically even in the dream it was Winter talking about how rarely it gets used it couldn't have been that good.)
Maybe make it the Wings of Liberty campaign leviathan that (if controlled by a player after you gave it to yourself World Editor) could literally spawn infinite broods and mutas for free like infested Terrans. That would seem reasonable to me.
Or maybe just give them immortal Kerrigan from 0:00 but Terrans get the artifact in that MU and protoss get to summon the Gantrithor once per game.
52:28 That map is quite bad. Terrans will have 80% win rate or so. But as it is very different, I would like to see some games on that.
anybody played with the point targeted dash? it seems like a much harder version to use then click right? because youll still have to issue another command after to have your hydras start attacking again. seems like a very strange choice of functionality
Haha the TH-cam automatic subtitles : Hello everyone my name is Loco.
La vida loca.
35:41 Lowko?
Anything, uh, anything else you'd like to tell us?
ok im convinced Shin forgot about Corruptor's active ability
I thought so too but think he forgot to upgrade the spire
What if the hydralisk frenzy ability gave the hydra plus 1 range and attack for the 1 second dash but also another 2 seconds so they can snipe motherships. Idk if this would work, just thinking out loud
Abduct should make the viper and mothership meet in the middle. Trading a viper for a mothership sounds unfair, but protoss is already favored after that exchange when both maxed imo
I dont quite understand the fuss about the mothership. It’s not like all the other protoss units cant be abducted, right? If only the mothership remains, good luck winning the game against a maxed out zerg.
Plus, the mothership no longer has a passive cloaking field so it’s not as impactfull as it used to be. I guess people just need some used to it.
Oh, i have missunderstood the new eneregy transfer ability: I thought it would be an ability for the batteries, thx for clarification. Edit: but what i don't get at 5:41 showtime uses the transfer energy ability but the nexus shown atm has not gone down in energy at all? So has he used the other Nexus? But then: What is the range of this ability?
Hydradash should be increased to 1,2s - 1,5s duration imo (isn't it v1,0s right now?)
I’ve big saying for years the biggest Zerg Protoss imbalance is the abduction, it does three things, has good range, it instantly pulls, and pulls far.
Range seems ok.
But pull distance or pull time, those are slightly off. Either reduce the pull distance or have it so it takes a moment similar to other attaching abilities, before it pulls.
Right now it makes the game a slog and not fun to watch, but for example maybe if the ability took a second to attach before it pulled it would give Protoss move incentive to fight instead of always running, similar to killing a disrupter before it pops.
Speaking of disrupters, they are the most gimmicky thing in this game by far and it’s not even close. I’m suprised pros use them at all, they are so volatile but any good pro will dodge them no problem.
I’d like to see disrupter damage decreased with speed increased. Make it less gimmicky but more forgiving for the other player. Similar to the other siege weapons not this awkward mini game.
a buff to Curruptors as they "are kinda trash" :D
Zerg fliers and anti fliers are just way behind and need a buff, then we can let them have their OP Mothership.
or let Zerg build the Leviathan and give it flying locust it spawns periodically and the Bio-plasmic Discharge (cost energy) with a long range, so a range that it can hit the mothership.
we could also get Scurges
I have asked for the better part of a decade why Protoss has a legendary unit and Zerg and Terran doesn’t. The leviathan and Hyperion should have been put in the game at heart of the swarm
@@Zerphy08 Yea I dont understand why blizzard gave up on the hero unit almost immediately, while keeping the idea of the mothership around to tinker with. Each race was suppose to have something filling the Mothership position
well yea, i think that Zeg have missed something for late game for a very long time, it leads to most zerg players trying to end games as fast as they can or be death balled later in the game.
Suggesting things that require a new unit are pointless. Blizzard has intention of doing any real development for SC2.
Corruptor buff makes the most sense, maybe more armor or more attack (+shields) damage . A new unit like Leviathan or Scourge would be too OP
20:45: Did Shin and Lowko both forget Caustic Spray exists? Corrupters are similar to Swarm Host - nearly free Nexus kill on a short CD. Seems like he forgot about Lings too...
31:15: What was Shin thinking advancing into that narrow choke made by the trapped Lings??
37:50: Gonna guess that would be because he lost all his production ;p
1:04:20: Finally!
not much mention of the change to Microbial Shroud, does it synergise with the Hydra Frenzy and allow them to take down the mothership?
I wonder if a good response to the Mothership to be just ignore it. Go Ultra/Roach/Ling, take over the ground. The Mothership does a lot of damage, but it’s split - Ultras should be able to just ignore it, and lings could probably just count it as a cost as they run by.
I wish we all spoke zerg, life would be hilarious.
While they clearly still need some fine tuning, I think a lot of the changes/additions in the new patch are pretty cool and will lead to interesting new playstyles. But instead of un-nerfing (or re-buffing?) the Mothership, I think Zerg should have access to a Leviathan to boost their late game.
I do think the most expensive, biggest unit that you can only ever have 1 off should be slightly on the OP side?
Think ultras with new fungle is underrated right now after the changes. Ultra infester hydra.
i think the mothership can be beaten by parasitic bomb, force itself to isolate and then you can kill either with corruptors or hydra.
I just watch the final of League of Legend with the French and some English commentator and one thing striked me : they are just audiodecripting the game and say blablab good blabla bad blabla awesome ... Its like a football game player 1 player 2 player 1 player two again, trying to go left.. oups that failed..........
You actually do a good job highlighting the transition time, the threats, the things to think about, the economy, what its allowing / preventing, the interest of this tech vs another etc. Actually giving you the meaning behind the strat and allowing us to understand the game through your experience.
Way better!
I think a funny idea for the viper abduct and mothership interaction would be like a tug of war scenario
Where you’d need like 4 vipers to pull it all the way otherwise both units will move slowly with a tether (that can be destroyed) with the mothership having the control of movement and the vipers being dragged along
If Zerg can heal with queens and natural regeneration.
Terran with Medivac and repair.
Can Protoss have like a sentry to heal that cost energy. Like a bubble heal. Since batter OC is gone. Idk.
Wasn’t frenzy the name of the hydralisk ability in the campaign? And that gave an attack speed increase on top of a movement increase, so I don’t think it should be called frenzy I think dash is just fine
would be giving the viper another ability late game a good solution to zerg late?