Given the fact that you know you're going to replace the shaft AND you have the beautiful, capable, massive radial arm drill- I say cut the shaft and break out a 3" drill bit and show us what that drill can do!! I can't wait for that episode- love me some radial arm drilling!
Deemstyle , Same thoughts as myself . Christopher C. 2 days ago (edited) As you quite often remark Keith . lots of ways to skin a cat . best try another one .You have a large radial arm drill ? (If not rig mag drill up on a steel plate clamped across the wheel ) Cut shaft off close to hub with disc cutter so the large wheel is free of the long shaft . drill it out so only a thin wall remains, should be able to knock or collapse that out once the pressure is off what is left of the shaft .If that don't work I will stand in the dunces corner with a pointed hat on .
On my old mill, the drive wheel for the old belt is similar to that and the spokes actually go all the way through to the shaft and help pin it in place. i had to remove the hoop, and the spokes to release the shaft from the hub. I feel like in my case the whole thing was able to be assembled in place by a person.. hub, then spokes, then hoop, then traction surface wood
Mr.Behaving you are probably right that the wheel was assembled by one person. My guess would be a wheelwright as at the time of the construction of this bandsaw as we were still using horses and carts. The wheelwright would be able to true and balance the wheel. It might be an idea for Keith to contact Engles Coach Shop on youtube and ask them about the wheels.
LOL! "LH threads got me again!" Keith is turning the screw right, it squeaks and I think, hey... is that a LH thread? So the same thing would have happened to me... I did like the "draft horse" walking around the wheel to turn the nut loose! LOL
I did the same on a CJ-2A once in the '70s and wrung off 3 lug studs on _one_ wheel before realizing they were left-hand (LH) threads! DOH! That was the first LH-threaded wheeled vehicle I had ever fooled with as a teenager and had to use a 4-foot-long cheater to break them. ;D As Keith was walking around the wheel with his cheater, it reminded me of him telling us of mules (& other draft animals) walking around cane mills, etc., so I thought at that point Keith might be feeling like a _mule_ for making the mistake again, even though virtually all of us have done it multiple times, if we've ever worked with any old equipment/machinery. I certainly can't point fingers!
I think the spokes are cast in place (edit, the hub is cast over the spokes, wanted to clarify that), the removable part is the wooden band of the wheel. Would not be out of place with that era's type of construction, results in a very sturdy type of wheel, which i'd expect to find on a saw.
@@aserta Well, if hub is cast over the spokes, it would be very visible - your molds can't be ideal with so sophisticated shape. Guess Keith have to sandblast whole assembly to understand how it was assembled and tuned (this wheel should be pretty straight).
Keep at it Keith, you'll sort it I'm sure. I remember having to get a gear off a shaft when I was an apprentice. The gear was about the same size as your wheel with the shaft around 4 inches. It would not budge so I set up a hydraulic press with a valve on wander leads supplied by a pump set, got everyone out of the shop and went for it while cowering behind a brick wall. When it let go the shaft flew around 20 feet down the shop! We got it out though. regards from Wales
@@mathewritchie That shaft flying 20 ft. reminds of another song, “I’m Busted”, by Charlie Pride that I heard many years ago. It was on one of his early albums.
So you really are human and just highly skilled. That's a relief. I was beginning to think you could leap tall building in a single bound and all that. I am looking forward to you figuring his out and showing us the secrets of this machine. Good luck!
My father was a welder in a large machine shop. He told me that when they had a stubborn shaft to remove that he always would bolt on an industrial quality vibration inducer. This would help break the bond that held the part to the shaft.
I used to work with this 85-year-old who could work circles around all the younger guys. He swore by his technique for freeing shafts. He would heat the hell out of them, let it cool, drench it in ATF and then whack it with a 36 in homemade tuning fork. He was not one to explain his techniques or much of anything. I have never seen this technique used anywhere else, but I never saw it not work for him. I never got to try because he would not let anyone else touch his tuning fork. Odd guy, brilliant, not terribly sociable.
Sounds right. the two parts end up married together so that technique would probably also help penetrating oil penetrate quicker. we also use air hammers to induce vibration to loosen ball joints and the like..
I was about to mention the same thing. Threaded or not drilling the center out will relieve some pressure. At this point it looks like some destructive repair might be in order. Drill it and see what's inside.
Keith, you should put a remote control winch on your Crain, save a lot of pulling on that chain. Mount a deep cycling battery on one of the legs and save yourself a lot of pulling on that chain. Love your show, hopefully you will get back to working on that bandsaw soon. And the metal planer and the part for that train that you started working on for that train restoration. It's been a long time for all of those projects.i think that part for the train was a steem box.
Mr. Rucker, as you are going to replace the shaft I would take that wheel over to your nice Bid Radial Arm Drill Press (RAD) set your saw horses under the wheel , clamp the wheel to the base and drill the center of the shaft out in steps, this would give the shaft some where to move into. After you have a good size hole down though the shaft take a steel rod that fits close and then use your hydraulic press you made and start pumping, should come out then. Had to do a set up like this once on an American 13" RAD, after about 10 min.s we got done what we had spent over an hour trying to do . I do like your saw horses too. best of luck Joe
*- Kieth, may I have the privilege of complimenting you on your sense of humor:* *- "Fighting a Loosing Battle at Removing a Shaft"* *- I very much enjoyed watching you fighting with this obstinate project. Thank you ! ! !* *- You teach more than you can know to the kids younger than 60 years old.*
Looking like a good candidate for the Carlton drill. Drill the center and press on a shaft that will slide down the hole loosely. Great video. Looking forward to seeing it apart.
Keith, I really, really love your videos. I think you may have stumbled on the movie equivalent of a cliff hanger! Putting more cliff hangers like this would be great! Your videos are great and so is the production work them, we can all tell you are a smart, talented guy that really loves doing what you do!
Had the same thought if I had to unthread that that’s exactly how it do it I’d get under that lock nut find a way to grip the shaft then spin the wheel off that way your not messing up the bearing side of the shaft so I’d say someone else had that thought 60 years ago and in order to reinstall they turned off the very last few threads that protruding from outside the hub
@@CrowBarActual I have seen machines with right hand thread hubs and left hand nuts. they spin against eachother and lock tighter. Old machine tho so I doubt it's the case on this.
i don't think that is the case, no access of witness threads on the shaft beyond the hub, but if it was the case, it would be easy to ancur the part with the small drum side of the shaft and turning the wheel will make it come loose, the long radius of the wheel would provide enough leverage
I've watched several TH-cam videos where brutally honest individuals showed themselves struggling to remove left handed fasteners not realizing they were turning the wrong way. I think you had the quickest "Ah Ha!" moment and applied correct torque. Having inadvertently overtightened a few left handed fasteners myself, I can feel your pain. I also liked the edit where you walked away with the 3 pound hammer and returned with the 10 pounder. Step aside for the "Tonya Harding 2000!" Credit to a guy at Vice Grip Garage.
Left hand threads are an “acceptable” Gotcha moment. I saw a video where a guy (ChuckE2009 iirc) struggled to remove an oil pan drain plug with a standard right hand thread but was tightening it. His solution was to pull the entire oil pan off and remove the plug with ease on the bench when he could visually turn it the right way. He didn’t admit the mistake because he didn’t realize he was making the mistake but everyone saw it on video.
I'm in the tapered fit vote. I was a mechanic at a bag manufacturer that celebrated their 100th anniversary in 2019....they had very old machines that had to be moved by rail because vehicles didn't exist that were strong enough to carry the parts. A tapered fit was used very often. Anything that has a wood wheel or a leather belt for drive...LoL...well...most likely has a tapered fit or a tapered machine key. The hub Keith is working on is wide enough for a strong taper fit.
LEFT HANDED THREADS!!! Darnit! I"ve been there and am kind of glad to see I'm not the only one to get stuck by this! Great video. Really excited to see this finished.
“It’s coming out”😂 I can’t tell you how many times we’ve had that conversation at work. Quickly followed by “ it’s just a matter of time”. Cut the shaft off and use the radial arm drill gets my vote also.
This reminds me of when Eric from hand tool rescue couldn't get the tapered shims out of his power hammer... There is something SOO satisfying about watching other people encounter a problem, discover it is neigh insurmountable, work at it anyways every which way they can, and maybe, eventually getting it done. The struggle is real. Looking forward to part 2!
My theory: the axle is just round but the wheel has a groove on the inside. A wedge was driven in from the side with the left-hand thread. The tighter the nut is turned, the tighter the wedge clamps the wheel onto the shaft. If you try to push the axle out from the thread side, the wedge will only wedge itself more tightly. The solution would be to saw through the axle and push it out from the rear. In any case, the axis can no longer be saved. Measure and make a plan beforehand to make a new one ! If nothing works, then drill out the axis.
I really enjoyed this video. It was interesting seeing how you tackled the various roadblocks. I was also impressed at your dog: he/she was carefully walking around your work, and not under it. Very smart!
*9:19* _Keith does _*_The Walk of Shame_*_ for the entire unscrewing of the nut, as a form of _*_Self Flagellation and Reflection_*_ for failing to spot the left-handed threads sooner._ 🤣👏
If you hadn't gotten this already, I would have suggested talking to the guy at Engle's Coach shop in in Joliet Montana. He seems to know everything about any kind of wheel.
Keith- I put my dinner tray over my face when you started pumping on that jack for the third time. I was really sure something was going to explode! I really enjoyed it and can't wait for the follow up.
(10:00). "What a workout!" With all the panting and incessant mouth breathing, you, sir, are one porkchop away from myocardial infarction. My recommendation: An exercise regimen of left-hand thread fasteners.
gundoc I'm a gunsmith and I always tell my grandson who is also my apprentice that the factory never drills a hole for no reason. If the small hole in the hub is not parallel to the shaft but is at a shallow angle to the shaft, that hole might have a pin driven down into it that presses into the part of the hole that cuts into the shaft. If the hole is not parallel, try test drilling down into it. If it has a steel pin in the bottom of it you will be able to tell by the difference of the chips coming out compared to cast iron.
I sincerely empathize with the difficulty you are experiencing removing that shaft. If there someone capable of getting it removed it is you! God bless.
Once you get a gantry Crane you cannot understand how you lived without it. Once you install a bridge crane, you have no idea how you ever lived with a gantry crane. Particularly for those of us who like the really heavy old equipment, or for those of us that are none too young ourselves, being able to reach any corner of the shop is priceless. I have just recently transitioned to a wheelchair myself. If it were not for the bridge crane, I think I would have to abandon the hobby altogether
Was trying to decide if the title was a typo or a pun. Initially I thought a pun as you had initial success, but now, not sure. Appreciate you showing the struggles and increasingly drastic methods to get ‘er done.
Keith, I think you will have to drag out the old Carlton radial arm drill. Just cut off the shaft, Put the wheel on the drill, and bore out the shaft. Should be a piece of cake.
I know everyone likes electric gantries, but I prefer a manual like what you have. I have much more control when lining things up. btw, I like your little shop buddy. a little porkchop lol. I had to laugh watching you spin off that shaft nut, reminded me of a horse drawn mill hahaha Here's my theory for the shaft: I'll bet that you didn't actually do anything to the threads and nut. It's probably a tapered shaft, and had a key at some point. but the key fell out and someone in the past decided to impact that nut down to prevent the wheel from spinning. in the process they did something to the nut to prevent it from backing out. So my guess is that that shaft is so cranked down that it's now fused together.
Hi Keith, Perhaps the part with the wrench marks on it is a tubular taper that wedges the shaft, that would explain why the washer is so substantial, and the hole in the back is for a punch to help remove it. Tim Tenold
I’m remembering a stubborn shaft in a flat belt pulley out at the museum. You conquered that one but sounded like a rifle shot the first time it moved at all. I know I jumped about a foot! Not sure how you’ll get this one out but you will prevail. Looks this will be a good restoration series. Best of luck. 😎👍👀💥
With enough pressure, I'm thinking it will come apart... just like a grenade! 😳 Not sure how much protection those plastic glasses will be. Apparently. Keith already knows a good Surgeon.
I think antique engine rebuilders will agree with me. Every day when you walk by the part, spray a little more penetrating oil on the joint. Sometimes these things can be rushed, and sometimes they can't. Unless there really is a fastener in there somewhere, heat and penetrating oil over time will win.
When Keith get problem there are real problem, I think this is the first time he had to keep us hanging... He usually have a solution for the stuck hardware but this time we have to wait and see... Keith, keep these fantastic videos coming.. I love the Monday and Friday video time.. Love from Sweden..
For those who may not be familiar with it, in the old days of the horse drawn wagons, the threads on the axle/shaft and the nuts for them were left hand threads for the left side. More modern vehicles used right hand threads on all 4 wheels/axles and used castle nuts and cotter pins to keep them from loosening up. Another challenging things in those days was that there was no real standard to shaft/axle diameter or thread pitch. All of this was done by blacksmiths and different places. You really didn't want to lose any of the nuts, or you had a problem.
Keith - Further on relating to my propeller experiences, pilgrim nuts and keyless propellers. Pilgrim nuts are propeller nuts with an internal hydraulic cylinder in a doughnut configuration. It is used to push propellers onto the shaft. You can put the nut on backward and use it to pull the propeller off. Some keyless propellers are fitted with cast iron sleeves that are epoxied into the propeller. The sleeves have grooves, almost like oil grooves in a babbitted bearing. A hydraulic pump can be attached to the sleeve so the area between the shaft and the sleeve can be pressurized. The propeller will "pop" off with the combination pressure and hydraulic lubrication. You have to take care to keep control of the process. This brings me to the idea of pullingthe well off the shaft by threading a plate onto the shaft and using a pancake jack to pull it off, as I suggested earlier. You might also try tapping the hole between the shaft and the hub, fit a hydraulic fitting in and try pressurizing the space between the shaft and hub. This might provide enough pressure for expansion and lubrication to free the hub.
Based on most of the comments below, I take the thing outdoors and clean it with a pressure washer to see which way pieces were connected to each other. Your cleanup with the wire wheel was a good start in that direction (Used it myself), but visibility really helps with figuring out how something was put together. Maybe add a magnifying glass to look at it more closely when completely clean.
That marring leads me to believe that hub would be threaded. Makes sense with a left hand thread nut. They work against each other to secure the connection. That axel is going to be a fun thing to machine, as I doubt it will be savaged. 😂 Looking forward to that video.
This is the kind of stuff that makes for a great and engaging video series! Hurry up and post the next episode :) I totally agree with exhausting your options to get it off the right way without just cutting the shaft (even though its going to be replaced)...... But in the end you may have to just get medieval with it
My opinion is that it was a replacement nut that NEARLY matched the threads in the shaft. As you know back around the turn of the next to last century a lot of manufacturers used proprietary threads or mixed Witworth or British threads.
Wow! I've been trying to figure out how to press the bearing out of a 96 tooth A60 chain sprocket. It is nearly 2 feet in diameter and I don't have a press that big.. You may have just solved my problem for me!
Blessed art they who run around in circles, for they shall be known as Wheels! Looks like you got your 10,000 steps in today, Keith. Thanks for the video. Jon
Hi Keith i think its a L shape groove that's why there are pipe wrench marks on it you have to turn the shaft clock wise than you can press it out (its simplified bayonet) but only L shaped. It keeps the axel from spinning and its explaining the pipe wrench marks.
Hi Keith, are the spokes threaded in to the hub? I wonder if you take out the spokes whether you will find a pin going through the hub and shaft, fitted through one of the spoke holes? Good luck, Andy.
Dear Mr. Rucker, i got a little bit consern about your arm. I had to laugh, cause like me i ofte turn the wrong way. Thanks for your videos i love them very much.
Great video Keith! I think most of us have been caught by left handed threads at some point! Looking forward to the answer for the axel/hub locking mystery. Lots of hypotheses in the comments. I’m betting on the spokes threading into the hub and engaging the axel, though the axel threading onto the hub sounds plausible as well (but what’s the point of the left handed retaining nut then?) Best of luck and stay safe!
Helped disasemble some old cloth mill equipment (1870ish) for scrap, and the large wheels had been threaded to the axle. Sadly we just torched the shafts off.
Hi Keith , I don't know much about small bandsaws but , larger saws use a taper . Usually when the shaft needs replacing , the shaft is cut then the remainder drilled / bored out . I'm talking about wheels 6 to 10 feet o.d. Good luck , I'm interested to see how this wheel was built .
Cut the shaft off and drill it out. You have the radial arm drill that can reach out and the nut side of the shaft has a center in it already. Thanks for posting.
Many years ago in the Army, I 'inherited' a couple of trucks that had not been fully maintained. I tried to loosen, then clean and re-torque the wheel lug nuts. No success on the first day, so I brought in a can of Liquid Wrench and an impact wrench. Each day I squirted some fresh oil onto the nuts and 'tap' each of them for a while with the impact wrench (for the vibrations to help). It took about a month, but they finally broke loose. Maybe what you really need is time for the penetrating oil to soak all the way through.
Just a tip, my support is bolted in the floor so even using extreme long lever it will never move around. I made insert in the concrete floor and keep it free of falling stuff using a short 16mm bolt when I need to remove the support to get a car o anything in.
Do one or more of the spokes key into the shaft through the hub? At least, if you can disassemble the wheel and spokes from the hub, it will make things easier to handle.
I was thinking exactly the same thing. But it'd be a bastard to have to remove (almost) all the spokes just to get to test the idea. Personally, I'd just disassemble the OTHER wheel and see how it goes together. It won't be as difficult because it's not driver.
I think the small hole may have been for locating it during the machining process for the spokes? Keep up the good work keith, super videos, love 'em all!
Lots of good ideas here, but I think I’m in the radial drill camp. Cut the long side of the shaft off with porta-band or torch, then set up on the radial and drill out the center of the shaft progressively larger. Looked like there was already a center drilled spot on the threaded side. If you have one you can mount in the radial, maybe switch to a boring head once most of the meat is drilled out for more finesse. This seems like the path of least resistance at this point, and any hidden features will be revealed when the shaft is out.
Keith .... I sent you an email and drawing of how I think it is pegged .... ball bearing down the hole, that is forced into the side of the shaft with a taper punch.
Keith, I was watching "Engels Coach Shop" earlier this evening and learned that the wooden parts on wheels are called felloe's. .Who would have guessed that when I got to you video you would be working on a wheel. With the pipe wrench marks the shaft could it be screwed in?
Given the fact that you know you're going to replace the shaft AND you have the beautiful, capable, massive radial arm drill- I say cut the shaft and break out a 3" drill bit and show us what that drill can do!! I can't wait for that episode- love me some radial arm drilling!
I second this motion! Wasn't but a couple videos back where he showed some really big drill bits he'd been given, too. No excuses!
Deemstyle , Same thoughts as myself .
Christopher C.
2 days ago (edited)
As you quite often remark Keith . lots of ways to skin a cat . best try another one .You have a large radial arm drill ? (If not rig mag drill up on a steel plate clamped across the wheel ) Cut shaft off close to hub with disc cutter so the large wheel is free of the long shaft . drill it out so only a thin wall remains, should be able to knock or collapse that out once the pressure is off what is left of the shaft .If that don't work I will stand in the dunces corner with a pointed hat on .
Yep. That's the ticket
On my old mill, the drive wheel for the old belt is similar to that and the spokes actually go all the way through to the shaft and help pin it in place. i had to remove the hoop, and the spokes to release the shaft from the hub. I feel like in my case the whole thing was able to be assembled in place by a person.. hub, then spokes, then hoop, then traction surface wood
I was thinking that is probably the case here as well. Those spokes are under tension and act like locks on that pin. It’s not going nowhere
I was thinking the same thing sort of. I wonder if one of those spokes isn't the full diameter of that wheel pinning that hub to the shaft
Mr.Behaving you are probably right that the wheel was assembled by one person. My guess would be a wheelwright as at the time of the construction of this bandsaw as we were still using horses and carts. The wheelwright would be able to true and balance the wheel.
It might be an idea for Keith to contact Engles Coach Shop on youtube and ask them about the wheels.
I was thinking the same. I was also thinking that maybe the hub is threaded onto the shaft and the hole is for a pin to stop it from un-threading.
Was just thinking the same thing. Spokes into shaft
Makes me smile when it's an "I" when your making thing and it's going well. However, it turns to a "WE" when things get broke or not going right.
LOL! "LH threads got me again!" Keith is turning the screw right, it squeaks and I think, hey... is that a LH thread? So the same thing would have happened to me... I did like the "draft horse" walking around the wheel to turn the nut loose! LOL
I did the same on a CJ-2A once in the '70s and wrung off 3 lug studs on _one_ wheel before realizing they were left-hand (LH) threads! DOH! That was the first LH-threaded wheeled vehicle I had ever fooled with as a teenager and had to use a 4-foot-long cheater to break them. ;D As Keith was walking around the wheel with his cheater, it reminded me of him telling us of mules (& other draft animals) walking around cane mills, etc., so I thought at that point Keith might be feeling like a _mule_ for making the mistake again, even though virtually all of us have done it multiple times, if we've ever worked with any old equipment/machinery. I certainly can't point fingers!
Yea, who needs a gym when you can restore old bandsaws? :D
Having been bit before by reverse threads, I always try turning the other way before breaking out the heat!
Looks like you can remove those spokes. Maybe there is something at the bottom of one of those spoke bores in the hub.
That was also my thought along with maybe the hole he points out might be an indicator of which spoke to remove.
I think the spokes are cast in place (edit, the hub is cast over the spokes, wanted to clarify that), the removable part is the wooden band of the wheel. Would not be out of place with that era's type of construction, results in a very sturdy type of wheel, which i'd expect to find on a saw.
I give 1/4 of my vote to the spoke-lock theory.
@@aserta Well, if hub is cast over the spokes, it would be very visible - your molds can't be ideal with so sophisticated shape. Guess Keith have to sandblast whole assembly to understand how it was assembled and tuned (this wheel should be pretty straight).
wow I think you got it!
Keep at it Keith, you'll sort it I'm sure. I remember having to get a gear off a shaft when I was an apprentice. The gear was about the same size as your wheel with the shaft around 4 inches. It would not budge so I set up a hydraulic press with a valve on wander leads supplied by a pump set, got everyone out of the shop and went for it while cowering behind a brick wall. When it let go the shaft flew around 20 feet down the shop! We got it out though. regards from Wales
I hate to think about how loud that must have been. I am glad that everyone was safe.
Reminds me of that song line such fun ,such fun ,ain`t it fun when you know you`re gonna die young?.Course that ship has sailed for me now.
Good thing it didn't blow a hole through the brick wall!!!
@@mathewritchie That shaft flying 20 ft. reminds of another song, “I’m Busted”, by Charlie Pride that I heard many years ago. It was on one of his early albums.
This is how every one of my projects go!
I wish I could thumbs up this remark another ten times. Every....one....of.....my.....projects... goes just like this... lol.
So you really are human and just highly skilled. That's a relief. I was beginning to think you could leap tall building in a single bound and all that. I am looking forward to you figuring his out and showing us the secrets of this machine. Good luck!
My father was a welder in a large machine shop. He told me that when they had a stubborn shaft to remove that he always would bolt on an industrial quality vibration inducer. This would help break the bond that held the part to the shaft.
I used to work with this 85-year-old who could work circles around all the younger guys. He swore by his technique for freeing shafts. He would heat the hell out of them, let it cool, drench it in ATF and then whack it with a 36 in homemade tuning fork. He was not one to explain his techniques or much of anything. I have never seen this technique used anywhere else, but I never saw it not work for him. I never got to try because he would not let anyone else touch his tuning fork. Odd guy, brilliant, not terribly sociable.
Sounds right. the two parts end up married together so that technique would probably also help penetrating oil penetrate quicker. we also use air hammers to induce vibration to loosen ball joints and the like..
There must be some kind of drawing on that wheel and hub somewhere on file‼️. GOOD LUCK KEITH‼️ Vinny 🇺🇸
No sure but cut the shaft off and use the radial arm drill to drill out the center.
My first thought too.
exactly
I was about to mention the same thing. Threaded or not drilling the center out will relieve some pressure. At this point it looks like some destructive repair might be in order. Drill it and see what's inside.
Or just cut the pulley off and try to press the shaft out from the (former) pulley side.
That was something I thought of! That shaft is toast. Cut, drill out, might do it without damaging the hub...
Its the stuck shaft in the pully all over again LOL .....! GOOD LUCK Keith !!
Keith, you should put a remote control winch on your Crain, save a lot of pulling on that chain. Mount a deep cycling battery on one of the legs and save yourself a lot of pulling on that chain. Love your show, hopefully you will get back to working on that bandsaw soon. And the metal planer and the part for that train that you started working on for that train restoration. It's been a long time for all of those projects.i think that part for the train was a steem box.
I admire the author for walking away, so many times I've done the same thing then after some time passed the solution came to me. Haste makes waste.
Mr. Rucker, as you are going to replace the shaft I would take that wheel over to your nice Bid Radial Arm Drill Press (RAD) set your saw horses under the wheel , clamp the wheel to the base and drill the center of the shaft out in steps, this would give the shaft some where to move into. After you have a good size hole down though the shaft take a steel rod that fits close and then use your hydraulic press you made and start pumping, should come out then.
Had to do a set up like this once on an American 13" RAD, after about 10 min.s we got done what we had spent over an hour trying to do . I do like your saw horses too. best of luck
Joe
*- Kieth, may I have the privilege of complimenting you on your sense of humor:*
*- "Fighting a Loosing Battle at Removing a Shaft"*
*- I very much enjoyed watching you fighting with this obstinate project. Thank you ! ! !*
*- You teach more than you can know to the kids younger than 60 years old.*
And also some of us kids who are older than 60 years old
Looking like a good candidate for the Carlton drill. Drill the center and press on a shaft that will slide down the hole loosely.
Great video. Looking forward to seeing it apart.
Gotta love the Left hand threads.
I find them on some of the vintage equipment now and then.
Keith, I really, really love your videos. I think you may have stumbled on the movie equivalent of a cliff hanger! Putting more cliff hangers like this would be great! Your videos are great and so is the production work them, we can all tell you are a smart, talented guy that really loves doing what you do!
A wrench left marks on the main shaft, is it threaded as well?
Had the same thought if I had to unthread that that’s exactly how it do it I’d get under that lock nut find a way to grip the shaft then spin the wheel off that way your not messing up the bearing side of the shaft so I’d say someone else had that thought 60 years ago and in order to reinstall they turned off the very last few threads that protruding from outside the hub
Either that or there might be something in one of the spoke holes like a setscrew or pin.
If it were threaded too, why would the lock nut be left hand threaded?
@@CrowBarActual I have seen machines with right hand thread hubs and left hand nuts. they spin against eachother and lock tighter.
Old machine tho so I doubt it's the case on this.
i don't think that is the case, no access of witness threads on the shaft beyond the hub, but if it was the case, it would be easy to ancur the part with the small drum side of the shaft and turning the wheel will make it come loose, the long radius of the wheel would provide enough leverage
At 8:30 I yelled, "LEFT HAND THREAD!" I'm glad you heard me. 😂
I've watched several TH-cam videos where brutally honest individuals showed themselves struggling to remove left handed fasteners not realizing they were turning the wrong way. I think you had the quickest "Ah Ha!" moment and applied correct torque. Having inadvertently overtightened a few left handed fasteners myself, I can feel your pain. I also liked the edit where you walked away with the 3 pound hammer and returned with the 10 pounder. Step aside for the "Tonya Harding 2000!" Credit to a guy at Vice Grip Garage.
Left hand threads are an “acceptable” Gotcha moment.
I saw a video where a guy (ChuckE2009 iirc) struggled to remove an oil pan drain plug with a standard right hand thread but was tightening it. His solution was to pull the entire oil pan off and remove the plug with ease on the bench when he could visually turn it the right way.
He didn’t admit the mistake because he didn’t realize he was making the mistake but everyone saw it on video.
Keith, you got me sitting on the edge of my seat.
I'm in the tapered fit vote. I was a mechanic at a bag manufacturer that celebrated their 100th anniversary in 2019....they had very old machines that had to be moved by rail because vehicles didn't exist that were strong enough to carry the parts. A tapered fit was used very often. Anything that has a wood wheel or a leather belt for drive...LoL...well...most likely has a tapered fit or a tapered machine key. The hub Keith is working on is wide enough for a strong taper fit.
You paid your penance for missing the threads, being the mule walking the circle. That is some heavy duty metal there.😁
I just had the same problem with them left hand threads on a old willy's chassis and tore my right rotator cuff. Good call! So your not the only one
Thank you for sharing. Keep plugging away, you of all people will figure it out, I am sure of that.
LEFT HANDED THREADS!!! Darnit! I"ve been there and am kind of glad to see I'm not the only one to get stuck by this! Great video. Really excited to see this finished.
“It’s coming out”😂 I can’t tell you how many times we’ve had that conversation at work. Quickly followed by “ it’s just a matter of time”. Cut the shaft off and use the radial arm drill gets my vote also.
This reminds me of when Eric from hand tool rescue couldn't get the tapered shims out of his power hammer... There is something SOO satisfying about watching other people encounter a problem, discover it is neigh insurmountable, work at it anyways every which way they can, and maybe, eventually getting it done. The struggle is real. Looking forward to part 2!
My theory: the axle is just round but the wheel has a groove on the inside.
A wedge was driven in from the side with the left-hand thread. The tighter the nut is turned, the tighter the wedge clamps the wheel onto the shaft. If you try to push the axle out from the thread side, the wedge will only wedge itself more tightly.
The solution would be to saw through the axle and push it out from the rear. In any case, the axis can no longer be saved. Measure and make a plan beforehand to make a new one !
If nothing works, then drill out the axis.
I really enjoyed this video. It was interesting seeing how you tackled the various roadblocks. I was also impressed at your dog: he/she was carefully walking around your work, and not under it. Very smart!
Round and round the Keith goes ha ha, like one of those animal powered flour mills ha ha
*9:19* _Keith does _*_The Walk of Shame_*_ for the entire unscrewing of the nut, as a form of _*_Self Flagellation and Reflection_*_ for failing to spot the left-handed threads sooner._ 🤣👏
If you hadn't gotten this already, I would have suggested talking to the guy at Engle's Coach shop in in Joliet Montana. He seems to know everything about any kind of wheel.
Keith- I put my dinner tray over my face when you started pumping on that jack for the third time. I was really sure something was going to explode! I really enjoyed it and can't wait for the follow up.
Watching you walk around the wheel reminded me of the wheel of pain from Conan the Barbarian.
I was sitting here thinking that it may be left hand threads... lol. Get you every time... Those threads galled right off.
(10:00). "What a workout!" With all the panting and incessant mouth breathing, you, sir, are one porkchop away from myocardial infarction. My recommendation: An exercise regimen of left-hand thread fasteners.
gundoc
I'm a gunsmith and I always tell my grandson who is also my apprentice that the factory never drills a hole for no reason. If the small hole in the hub is not parallel to the shaft but is at a shallow angle to the shaft, that hole might have a pin driven down into it that presses into the part of the hole that cuts into the shaft. If the hole is not parallel, try test drilling down into it. If it has a steel pin in the bottom of it you will be able to tell by the difference of the chips coming out compared to cast iron.
I sincerely empathize with the difficulty you are experiencing removing that shaft. If there someone capable of getting it removed it is you! God bless.
Rule #1 of the shop - CARDIO ;) You mention what I was wondering - some kind of key pinning it.
Once you get a gantry Crane you cannot understand how you lived without it. Once you install a bridge crane, you have no idea how you ever lived with a gantry crane. Particularly for those of us who like the really heavy old equipment, or for those of us that are none too young ourselves, being able to reach any corner of the shop is priceless. I have just recently transitioned to a wheelchair myself. If it were not for the bridge crane, I think I would have to abandon the hobby altogether
Was trying to decide if the title was a typo or a pun. Initially I thought a pun as you had initial success, but now, not sure. Appreciate you showing the struggles and increasingly drastic methods to get ‘er done.
Normally I'm a grammar Nazi however I'm'a let this one slide - get it.. loose .. slide.. ba dum dum!
Very clever press!😁
"Ring around the rosies. Pocket full of posies..."
Keith is getting his steps in today!
Keith, I think you will have to drag out the old Carlton radial arm drill. Just cut off the shaft, Put the wheel on the drill, and bore out the shaft. Should be a piece of cake.
Thanks for sharing 👍
I know everyone likes electric gantries, but I prefer a manual like what you have. I have much more control when lining things up.
btw, I like your little shop buddy. a little porkchop lol. I had to laugh watching you spin off that shaft nut, reminded me of a horse drawn mill hahaha
Here's my theory for the shaft: I'll bet that you didn't actually do anything to the threads and nut. It's probably a tapered shaft, and had a key at some point. but the key fell out and someone in the past decided to impact that nut down to prevent the wheel from spinning. in the process they did something to the nut to prevent it from backing out. So my guess is that that shaft is so cranked down that it's now fused together.
Hi Keith! Great work! Consider getting an electric chain hoist ! YOU WILL REALLY WONDER HOW YOU GOT ALONG WITHOUT ONE !!!!
Hi Keith,
Perhaps the part with the wrench marks on it is a tubular taper that wedges the shaft, that would explain why the washer is so substantial, and the hole in the back is for a punch to help remove it.
Tim Tenold
I’m remembering a stubborn shaft in a flat belt pulley out at the museum. You conquered that one but sounded like a rifle shot the first time it moved at all. I know I jumped about a foot! Not sure how you’ll get this one out but you will prevail. Looks this will be a good restoration series. Best of luck. 😎👍👀💥
Keith, you have to be one of the hardest working guys on TH-cam. Great video.
Take the rim off, remove the spokes (threaded into the hub?) and see if one of those spokes has a pin below it going into the shaft?
Looks like a good job for the radial drill press
With enough pressure, I'm thinking it will come apart... just like a grenade! 😳 Not sure how much protection those plastic glasses will be. Apparently. Keith already knows a good Surgeon.
I think antique engine rebuilders will agree with me. Every day when you walk by the part, spray a little more penetrating oil on the joint. Sometimes these things can be rushed, and sometimes they can't. Unless there really is a fastener in there somewhere, heat and penetrating oil over time will win.
You're doing well after surgery!
You'll get it, great makeshift press
When Keith get problem there are real problem, I think this is the first time he had to keep us hanging... He usually have a solution for the stuck hardware but this time we have to wait and see... Keith, keep these fantastic videos coming.. I love the Monday and Friday video time.. Love from Sweden..
For those who may not be familiar with it, in the old days of the horse drawn wagons, the threads on the axle/shaft and the nuts for them were left hand threads for the left side. More modern vehicles used right hand threads on all 4 wheels/axles and used castle nuts and cotter pins to keep them from loosening up. Another challenging things in those days was that there was no real standard to shaft/axle diameter or thread pitch. All of this was done by blacksmiths and different places. You really didn't want to lose any of the nuts, or you had a problem.
Keith -
Further on relating to my propeller experiences, pilgrim nuts and keyless propellers. Pilgrim nuts are propeller nuts with an internal hydraulic cylinder in a doughnut configuration. It is used to push propellers onto the shaft. You can put the nut on backward and use it to pull the propeller off. Some keyless propellers are fitted with cast iron sleeves that are epoxied into the propeller. The sleeves have grooves, almost like oil grooves in a babbitted bearing. A hydraulic pump can be attached to the sleeve so the area between the shaft and the sleeve can be pressurized. The propeller will "pop" off with the combination pressure and hydraulic lubrication. You have to take care to keep control of the process.
This brings me to the idea of pullingthe well off the shaft by threading a plate onto the shaft and using a pancake jack to pull it off, as I suggested earlier. You might also try tapping the hole between the shaft and the hub, fit a hydraulic fitting in and try pressurizing the space between the shaft and hub. This might provide enough pressure for expansion and lubrication to free the hub.
Based on most of the comments below, I take the thing outdoors and clean it with a pressure washer to see which way pieces were connected to each other. Your cleanup with the wire wheel was a good start in that direction (Used it myself), but visibility really helps with figuring out how something was put together. Maybe add a magnifying glass to look at it more closely when completely clean.
Waw, it maybe time for the giant drill press to help out.
That marring leads me to believe that hub would be threaded. Makes sense with a left hand thread nut. They work against each other to secure the connection. That axel is going to be a fun thing to machine, as I doubt it will be savaged. 😂 Looking forward to that video.
hello! If you take the wooden wheel out of the spokes, you can put the axle in the museum's big press!
9:30 "Homer Simpson, report for much worse duties"
This is the kind of stuff that makes for a great and engaging video series! Hurry up and post the next episode :) I totally agree with exhausting your options to get it off the right way without just cutting the shaft (even though its going to be replaced)...... But in the end you may have to just get medieval with it
My opinion is that it was a replacement nut that NEARLY matched the threads in the shaft. As you know back around the turn of the next to last century a lot of manufacturers used proprietary threads or mixed Witworth or British threads.
Wow! I've been trying to figure out how to press the bearing out of a 96 tooth A60 chain sprocket. It is nearly 2 feet in diameter and I don't have a press that big.. You may have just solved my problem for me!
Blessed art they who run around in circles, for they shall be known as Wheels! Looks like you got your 10,000 steps in today, Keith. Thanks for the video. Jon
Hi Keith i think its a L shape groove that's why there are pipe wrench marks on it you have to turn the shaft clock wise than you can press it out (its simplified bayonet) but only L shaped. It keeps the axel from spinning and its explaining the pipe wrench marks.
You could test my theory with a tiny wire in too the hole to see which direction it would go at the bottom
Hi Keith, are the spokes threaded in to the hub? I wonder if you take out the spokes whether you will find a pin going through the hub and shaft, fitted through one of the spoke holes? Good luck, Andy.
Dear Mr. Rucker, i got a little bit consern about your arm.
I had to laugh, cause like me i ofte turn the wrong way.
Thanks for your videos i love them very much.
Great video Keith! I think most of us have been caught by left handed threads at some point! Looking forward to the answer for the axel/hub locking mystery. Lots of hypotheses in the comments. I’m betting on the spokes threading into the hub and engaging the axel, though the axel threading onto the hub sounds plausible as well (but what’s the point of the left handed retaining nut then?) Best of luck and stay safe!
Now you know how the old mule feels grinding the sugar can
I agree with the tapered wedge driven in with the outer nut hypothesis. I think the small hole is so you can drift the wedge out from behind.
I’m wondering, just from seeing the pipe wrench marks, is if the shaft is not threaded into the wheel.
I think the same.
@ Me too.
Or that collar where the wrench marks were (if that's a separate part, I couldn't tell).
The same thought occurred to me, especially with the wrench marks.
Helped disasemble some old cloth mill equipment (1870ish) for scrap, and the large wheels had been threaded to the axle. Sadly we just torched the shafts off.
Hi Keith ,
I don't know much about small bandsaws but , larger saws use a taper . Usually when the shaft needs replacing , the shaft is cut then the remainder drilled / bored out . I'm talking about wheels 6 to 10 feet o.d. Good luck , I'm interested to see how this wheel was built .
Cut the shaft off and drill it out. You have the radial arm drill that can reach out and the nut side of the shaft has a center in it already. Thanks for posting.
Many years ago in the Army, I 'inherited' a couple of trucks that had not been fully maintained. I tried to loosen, then clean and re-torque the wheel lug nuts. No success on the first day, so I brought in a can of Liquid Wrench and an impact wrench. Each day I squirted some fresh oil onto the nuts and 'tap' each of them for a while with the impact wrench (for the vibrations to help). It took about a month, but they finally broke loose. Maybe what you really need is time for the penetrating oil to soak all the way through.
Just a tip, my support is bolted in the floor so even using extreme long lever it will never move around. I made insert in the concrete floor and keep it free of falling stuff using a short 16mm bolt when I need to remove the support to get a car o anything in.
When the irresistible force meets the immovable object... nothing!
Many times, it is our difficulties that define us.
Keith as the shaft is scrap cut it off ,get over to the radial arm drill and drill the centre out ,that should sort it
My thoughts exactly
And mine.
And mine.
Me too.
Walking that nut off, you now know what the mule felt like powering an arrastra.
Lefthand threads, easy mistake to make Kieth. Another great video, keep 'em coming.
Watching you work on it,I started to wonder is the shaft threaded on the hub?
4:34 The dog's steering clear.. he's saying, "I don't want ANY PART of this!"
Do one or more of the spokes key into the shaft through the hub? At least, if you can disassemble the wheel and spokes from the hub, it will make things easier to handle.
I was thinking the same thing, maybe the spoke closest to the hole ? The hole could identify the spoke that needs to be removed.
I was thinking exactly the same thing. But it'd be a bastard to have to remove (almost) all the spokes just to get to test the idea.
Personally, I'd just disassemble the OTHER wheel and see how it goes together. It won't be as difficult because it's not driver.
The machinist version of the 'conan wheel' strongman competition :)
I read most of the comments and was thinking a set screw or pin under a spoke or the spoke goes through the shaft? Maybe? Thanks for sharing!
I think the small hole may have been for locating it during the machining process for the spokes? Keep up the good work keith, super videos, love 'em all!
alright... comes back with John Henry's steel driving hammer ! I would be very afraid if I was that shaft lol.
Lots of good ideas here, but I think I’m in the radial drill camp. Cut the long side of the shaft off with porta-band or torch, then set up on the radial and drill out the center of the shaft progressively larger. Looked like there was already a center drilled spot on the threaded side. If you have one you can mount in the radial, maybe switch to a boring head once most of the meat is drilled out for more finesse.
This seems like the path of least resistance at this point, and any hidden features will be revealed when the shaft is out.
I thought removing the rear axle bearings on my Toyota Tacoma was a bear but,you are dealing with the momma bear and her Cubs.
Ding Dong Daddy from Dumas - we all get snagged on that one.
Keith .... I sent you an email and drawing of how I think it is pegged .... ball bearing down the hole, that is forced into the side of the shaft with a taper punch.
How on earth would you remove something like that?
Keith, I was watching "Engels Coach Shop" earlier this evening and learned that the wooden parts on wheels are called felloe's. .Who would have guessed that when I got to you video you would be working on a wheel.
With the pipe wrench marks the shaft could it be screwed in?