As a mechanic who’s worked in National chain stores and even dealerships I can attest that there is a “get it in and get it out…” mentality. Often times was told to “Toe-N-Go”. I can also tell you the attention To employee retention is just not there. I found when I worked for “Mom & Pop” shops there was more effort put in getting it done right the first time and being honest with customers. The industry is different from commercialized to independent. I’ve Since opened my own business that caters to the off-road industry and am active in my overland group. We aim to be a one stop shop that specializes in everything from maintenance, heavy repairs, aftermarket modifications and more. We Mark every one of our camber/caster plates with a reference mark, and write the torque spec on the Subframe. We don’t have an alignment rack just yet and have a near by Shop sublet them. After the alignment is completed we recheck the bolt torque as well as take note to see if any camber/caster plates have been rotated. Like Ronald Reagan used to say “Trust, But Verify..”
I appreciate this post. Especially the trust but verify statement. I have worked as a mechanic and I'm more than capable of doing "most" of my own repairs... I just don't have the time for some things, and less motivation to do it myself when it's a chore. Example 1: The fuel pump failed on my 2010 Silverado. I have changed plenty and know the drill (loosen bed bolts, tip bed to one side, swap pump, etc..) but didn't have the time. Part was $300 after tax at the local parts store, and my local mechanic quoted $475 complete, including the part. That's $175 I was happy to spend to not have to deal with it, and it's a job that's hard to screw up, and immediately obvious if not done right. They did a great job. Example B: Oil pressure on same truck fell to zero one morning. I suspected either the oil pump or oil sending unit (but was quite sure it was the OSU because your gauge will never go to zero with an oil pump... it will just show very low oil pressure, generally). Called same shop and asked what they would charge to change the oil pump, wanting to see how they answered the question. The very honest man said, "Please let us check it to make sure if it's the OSU and not the oil pump. The difference in price is close to $1000, and we wouldn't want you to pay more than needed". That right there is why I let them continue to work on my cars when I don't want to.
This is an interesting comment. I’ve had great experience with Firestone. I started going to Firestone because two guys I grew up with worked there for years and they told me about the seriousness that upper management takes customer complaints. Obviously, you have a personal incentive to knock national chains but I would be interested to know if Firestone (who I suspect might be involved in this video) was one of the bad ones in your experience. Thx
I was an mechanic for 27 years at a national chain shop. I was considered to be one of the best alignment guys in the city, and I strove to do everything, not just alignments, as perfect as humanly possible! But the sad fact is, I was a rarity! It all boils down to whether a person takes pride in their work or not! I did. It was either going to be right, or I wasn’t going to do it. Now that I’m retired, I do all of the work on my own vehicles that I can do. I have a pretty well equipped shop at home, but I can’t justify buying an alignment machine. I cringe every time I have to take a vehicle to someone else! It is beyond frustrating because it seems that no one cares about the quality of their work! I considered my reputation to be very important, but as I said, I am rarity! I don’t know the answer!
A good alignment tech is worth their weight in gold. I get laughed at on FB for paying $180 for an alignment but he touches every bolt, and then tells me what's going on where. I cringe every time someone says they just get the lifetime alignment from the chain shops because of stuff like this video. Now that you have an good shop with an honest tech, hold them close and treat them well! I always tip my alignment tech because he's so thorough.
Just wanted to say not all of us that did the "lifetime" alignments didn't do their jobs correctly. I will add that almost every major shop uses Hunter Alignment machines. ALWAYS ask for a before and after print out. Even still you as a customer don't have to know much. Just look for shiny metal near the corners of adjustments. If they are still dirty - they weren't touched. Maybe for good reason maybe not. I now am a truck driver though. Between busting my knuckles on rigged up trailer queens and an overwhelming customer base that is about as appreciative as cougar that pet a porcupine I had enough. You are right though most new techs do not know what the WHY is to what adjustments they are making. They just see green is good. Most don't even know the angles as the alignment machine software has diagrams and videos that will show them what to adjust.
@@OutdoorAuto tips don't have to be monetary, bring the shop doughnuts, or coffee from a local coffee shop, or a meat and cheese platter, it is a simple cheap non monetary way to get the best service or to show your appreciation for good quality work.
there's a shop in denver that's famous for quality alignments and they do lifted razors , rat rods, lifted trucks, slammed stance cars, i take my car there with all adjustable control arms slammed on fortune auto coilovers and they charge by "as long as it takes" to get the numbers on the money, cost me $300 2 hours and everything is on the money to the 2nd decimal digit
This is the type of video we need more of. I tend to rely on professionals for my automotive work/repairs as well, but over the last several decades I have been learning what to at least look for as far as the work actually getting done. Good video, keep it up.
I’m a high end trim carpenter. My company is a two man operation with myself and my dad. We care a lot about our work and our customers. I hear a lot of horror stories about contractors and it upsets me because it creates a stigma that the good workmen have to deal with. I’m sorry to hear about your truck. My mechanic is a family friend so that’s how I vet mine
As a mechanic and shop owner, the large national chain stores need to be thought of as the "fast food" of automotive repair. They typically don't pay their technicians well and have a revolving door mentality on technician retention. As far as the specific issue you have with your truck. Being someone that appears to DIY a lot of thier own repairs, you not noticing that isn't the end of the world, you have found the correct repair already. But as a whole the biggest thing that can be done is having your vehicle inspected by a reputable shop at minimum. And preferably a shop that is highly detail oriented and specializes in the type of vehilce you drive. An added bonus is if the shop specializes in the type of modifications you have installed as well. Great video and I'm looking forward to seeing more about this issue as a whole. Thank you.
Great advice, and thanks for weighing in as a shop owner... I definitely don't want to throw all techs under the bus... when I do find a good shop... they are worth every penny.
Love honest learning videos like this. Thank you for another realistic experience, you’re a great grounded channel in the flashy spendy off-road side of TH-cam
Taco Tabs and alignment block reinforcement. And get some limit straps on those lower arms. Your stressing your CV axles in full droop You have the tabs for them. Diff drop spacers as well. Bring it to me I can fix that issue for you. Its best to get all the parts together. There really isnt a all in one kit. You need to have someone who knows their way around a 4x4. You enter into a different realm of car care when you go that full customs suspension. It has to be aligned with a racecar/ buggy type alignment setup. Sometimes caster and camber wont be achieved 100% dead on due to ne angles introduced. Its a huge learning curve from the straight axle days.
just ruined a set of new Toyos on my Bronco, with an alignment that i paid for but never happened. i feel your pain. Worse, i own repair shops, employ about 90 technician from entry level to master technician level. I'd love to have a conversation with you about how to fill the massive void of qualified technicians. Currently looking at how to create an outside of the box training platform, not associated with tech schools, gov't funding, required English, Math, onsite attendance, etc. the things that don't really matter in repairing a vehicle and create barriers to many men and women looking to enter the field.
Go grt the boys 8n high school. Thise you slknow wont make it to college. Our apciety has changed and not for the best academically. The level of pride from work is not there anynore. I got chronically ill and had to reinvent myself. So i switched from construction worker (had my company, lost everything when i got sick) to client service for a bank. I was surrounded by entry level people, 20yo kids fresh out of school. The level of professionalism is SO LOW. What we want and need will not come from the school system. And so thats why i suggest you to go get them before they thrie the towel or get corrupted and spoiled.
Structured training plans with clearly defined goals and marked compensation increases upon completion of said goals is a good place to start. I could realistically sit down with you and talk about these issues for about a week lol. I was a machine shop supervisor for 5 years...I learned A LOT and developed a lot of individuals.
I have never been a mechanic myself, but my understanding is that many of them are expected to have their own tools. And buying a whole set of tools is expensive. That's definitely going to be a huge barrier to entry for anyone that doesn't happen to already own a bunch of tools for some reason. Also, it is my understanding that most mechanics are paid per job, not per hour. This type of compensation encourages cutting corners, because the faster a tech can get a car in and out the more jobs they can do in a day and the more money they make. And the fastest way to get work done is to do it shoddily (or just not actually do it but claim it was done). There should be financial incentive to doing the job RIGHT, not doing it FAST.
To think that those little tabs are what keep your alignment is part sad and part scary. A truly competent technician does not even require these to do an alignment. I have had the opposite experience as this one. I have a 2007 F150 with 301,000 hard miles. After replacing ball joints myself, it was a Friday and I was in a hurry and my local guy couldn't fit me in until Tuesday. Called big chain shop and they said they could fit me in first thing the next morning. Next morning, they said that because the tabs were not perfect, they were unable to do an alignment. Took in to local shop Tuesday. Told them about it, showed receipt from other shop. He just laughed. Then he explained the situation. A tech that doesn't really understand suspensions/alignment will hook it all up to an alignment computer system. Then they simply follow directions from that screen. Loosen nut "A" turn cam "B" ?? degrees, like a paint by numbers... They obviously don't know what or why they are changing, just that the computer told them to. If the parts on the truck don't match exactly with what's on the computer screen, the tech is helpless. Local guy has been working on farm trucks, hunting trucks etc for over 40 years. Does having the exact pieces make it simpler? Absolutely! Are they "required" in order to do alignment? Absolutely not. He has a lot of tools that he can work with and does exacting work. So, perhaps the guy that pointed out the problem is not really the hero. Perhaps some of the guys doing the work without complaining WERE actually giving you quality alignments... Just my personal experience for the 7.3 cents that it's worth. Local, YES, Big box, NO but NOT for the reasons you gave...
One of the first things I do on a Toyota I plan to offroad is install a Cam Tab Gusset kit from Total Chaos, or Marlin Crawler to avoid this kind of thing. Also be sure to put anti-seize on the cam bolts or they'll practically weld themselves in place.
This exactly. It's been an issue on IFS toyotas since IFS toyota trucks first came out. My '01 would shift alignment with every good knock off road. I opted to get a lifetime alignment from firestone.
I don’t trust most shops either, I own a Chevy now and my alignment stays in alignment better than my three Toyotas,… it’s a sad fact that most shops are rushing the mechanics way too much, it’s not necessarily that the mechanic doesn’t know anything, it’s the shop telling them to rush… they literally look very briefly and never spend time figuring things out.. also most shops over torque my wheels and warp the brake rotors, you don’t know the rotors are warped until you try stopping at high speeds…
It’s troublesome that there were so many untrustworthy shops encountered. However from a mechanical perspective, these OEM tabs are engineered for stock tires, and probably become the weak link with oversized tires. Good to know that aftermarket suppliers have addressed this issue with replacement upgraded hardware.
When I was a kid I paid for new shocks and struts installed on my car. As an adult, I do them myself, it's an easy job. Also, when I was younger, I got an oil change, with new air filter and fluids (got upsold) and a free carwash. Drove around for a week before I found the air filter cover was not reinstalled. Since I learned to not trust shops and being confident in my own abilities, I haven't paid for vehicle service in twenty years. I do all my own maintenance. I enjoy buying new tools for the job and learning how to do my own wrenching. Sadly, if you want it done right, you have to do it yourself.
I'm 62 and I've lived and worked all up and down the west coast from San Diego to Seatle. Over my life. I've only found a couple of totally honest shops... No e of these these honest shops have been any of the chanes.... I'm an electrician by trade who does service work. Some of the things I've been told to do by the shop I was working for are unbelievable. I've refused of coarse... However, when push comes to shove, I've had to quit my job for the sake of my own integrity. The biggest problem I've had is the up-sell. That's where you're called to do a specific diagnostic/repair and the shop expects you to look for any number of things that might be wrong or could go wrong and try to push the customer with manipulation tactics into doing the extra work whether they need it or not... They actually put you through training for this and try to convince you its in the customers' best interest that you get them to do this extra work.
Look at who people in the local rally/racing community use if you’re in a more populated area. When you have shop techs and owners who deal with motorsports regulators, you can be reasonably assured that they have a proper eye for detail and care.
I am a Toyota MDT and I see this from aftermarket shops all the time. A lot of tundra and tacos come in with the eccentric upside-down too. This is more often than not caused by the alignment themselves. If you don't take the weight off of the control arms and try to force the eccentrics over it bends the tabs down. I'm sure very rough roads can cause it but I'd put my money on the tech who did the alignmwnt. You can weld the back side of the tabs to strengthen them. You can bend those tabs back upalignment on this truck. Most dealerships will sublet that or refer them to another shop because they don't want to deal with it.
As a Mechanic myself, I can attst to lack of blue collar professionals. Work in a fleet now and we are at half staffing and have been for years now😢. Only ever worked in mom and pop shops so we took done right first time to heart. Mistakes happen but they’re fixable, it’s what we do. Have seen those bent tabs often on Toyotas , mostly off-roaders but like you said they’re is a healthy aftermarket fixes for it. Just get a quality and well known brand and good to go. Love your videos, keep up the great work!
I appreciate the honesty. This isn't a vendetta against mechanics... I love a good mechanic as much as anyone... but these shortages are affecting quality and it is tough to navigate.
Incompetence is the true pandemic. I've had so many similar experiences that I now do 95% of my own maintenance, just so I can have the peace of mind knowing it's been done right. Alignments were not on that list, because I don't have the equipment to do it... but now I'm going to have figure this out too or I'll have alignment anxiety thanks this new information. Wonderful.
Also, get a centre punch and a light tap to see if has even moved. It is almost worth getting a MEASURE and REPORT only, should be cheaper and educational. Then ... reading the specs, the service manual procedures, figure the settings you need - especially if they will be non standard and ... do it youself Then take the vehicle back to MEASURE and REPORT the alignment you have achieved. I know, hh:mm and $$$, am I going mad?
I’ve only taken my Tundra to the dealer from mile 1 for service. They’ve managed to cause more damage than good. From over torqued lugs that caused them to mushroom, cross threaded the bolts to skid plate, unable to diagnose key fob issues then ran out of warranty. I’ve decided to do the maintenance myself I feel your pain. I agree, no one has a good work ethic these days. Alignments are easy. You can get used machines pretty cheap these days to do it yourself
As someone who owns an alignment shop, I do not think they are right about the cams. While I have not had issues with the cam stops on Tundras or Tacomas (normally it’s more that the freeze up in the bushing), fords are set similarly, but without cams at all. They simply have a washer on each side and a bolt that goes through a slotted hole on the lower control arms. As long as it is tightened and has washers, it shouldn’t move. I don’t really see a difference is that setup and just removing the cams on a tundra/tacoma. The only issue I have seen is where someone tightened the cam over a cam stop and it worked itself loose over time, but so long as the cams are on flat metal against the frame it shouldn’t cause any issues.
I put a new suspension on my tundra a few years ago and those cam bolts were locked into the bushings so bad i had to cut em. I replaced the lower control arms and got new cam bolts from toyota. Took them to a shop that specializes in alignments and it been perfect ever since.
I have a Toyota Tacoma and a 4x4 Sprinter van. This problem is even worse on my Sprinter because the MB dealer will not touch my suspension because of my mods. Most shops have no clue even how to properly jack-up my van. An example, you cannot jack a Sprinter by the rear differential. The diff cover plate hangs over a bit and a jack will deform this and cause a leak. I've replaced my diff cover so this is not a problem.
I really appreciate you bringing this to light. I’m 62 and have done most of my own automotive work since I was about 14. Due to time constraints, back issues and now being able to afford to pay someone else to do the heavy work I send work out. It really pisses me off when a tech or a shop owner thinks I’m an idiot. I’ve been lied to multiple times over the past few years. DON’T tell me my truck needs a new rack when my truck doesn’t even have a rack and pinion. Also at the current labor rates I expect the job to be done correct the first time. I could on but my thumb is getting tired. Damn Mike L. why did you sell your shop and retire!!!
Total Chaos cam tab gussets. One of those mods that are done right away when people start messing with suspension. Almost always done with LT kits. List of things people miss and pay for right away 1) Cam Tab gussets 2) Frame plating the front and rear. Mostly the front during the LT install. Abuse will cause the frame to push inwards 2.5) Shock tower cross brace. Related to above issue. Prevents shock bucket from cracking or pulling apart. 3) UCA gussets 4) TC spindle gussets or a fabbed spindle from Camburg 5)Bracing the rear axle 6) bracing or boxing the rear of frame. Prevents the bed from smashing the cab. 7) forgot as I was typing. Edit: Core support. Radiator, headlights. Don’t need a full engine cage but those areas should be addressed. Also once you’ve fixed your cam tabs. You’ll still have an issue with a correct alignment because of the Camburg Uppers. Notorious for having issues. The bigger Uniball size is the cause. I’d swap to Their Heim uppers for more adjustment.
This is a good list... I actually have spindle gussets and axle gussets/trusses sitting on my welding bench right now. Rear frame is already braced. Already have the Camburg Heim Uppers (I have an old set from before they switched the tube uppers away from heims). But always more to do.
@@OutdoorAuto id go to your local 4wp store (off-road store) and see if they have any spindle take offs from a lift kit. Whoever your local Toyota uses for lifts. The newer the better. With your off-roading and age of truck, you might have already twisted/bent your spindles. Thing about these nice forged spindles we have. Won’t snap but can twist. Might get some new ones or barely used for cheap. Best to have a fresh set when you do your gussets. Prevent any issues later.
Absolutely agree, I went to local shops about three years ago, because of the same issue with large corporations. I actually talked to one of the managers, and he gave me the rundown of the corporate two-step, the hierarchy, the low morale, The managers fighting in front of customers. It's a circus. Go to an owner operator, he's got more skin in the game than somebody punching a time clock. Plus, the pay is so low that these kids are not trained. Things every single time not the fault of the people under the roof, but CEOs focused on the bottom line.
Alignment Depends on Caster Camber KPI Toe In /Toe Out Bigger Tyres and Long Travel Kits throw out the Wheel Alignment. Bigger and Heavier Tyres will change camber (Dynamic) at ride height check the Tie Rod End Angle any angle from parallel to ground will lead to bump steer and alignment issues
I sympathize with you, as a retired mechanic l also have trouble finding a decent mechanic. Most can’t even tie their own shoes. I have had the same experience with seemingly straight forward repairs that can’t get done. I do what I can but most are too strenuous for me ( l am 75).
i've brought my vehicles to the same shop since i was 17, i'm now 39. it's the 3rd generation of mechanic working on my truck every time, i even went to school with him and his sister who works the front desk. i have never once had to call him back about any issues and he's always been brutally honest about any issues or anything i need to watch. his dad worked on my parents vehicles and the grandfather on my grandparents. i'm in NY and will be moving to NC in a couple years, i will be bringing my vehicle back up for anything major just because i know i can trust him.
We are a small off-road shop in Castle Rock Colorado. We focus on off-road vehicles but work on almost anything. Wheels, tires, suspensions, brakes, accessories, and custom fabrication are the main things we do. We LOVE having our work scrutinized! If you want someone that cares, give us a call. We want to work on your passion! As for this video, sorry you are running into this issue. We find that a good alignment shop is hard to find.
Support the shops that support you. I had this level of partnership until the old man who owned the joint closed up shop. His kids didn't want to get dirt and grease on their hands. I would walk in and pay almost MSRP for a winch or fab parts from them because they hosted trail runs, camping events, and they were the only shop in town who could install a ring and pinion ($150 if you supply parts). I had to learn how to use a crush sleeve after they closed.
This is why I do all work on my vehicles. Literally everything. Remember- all those fancy machines and electronics and whatnot didnt always exsist. Yet the methods exsisted to get the same work done. I do my own alignments. At my old performance shop we did alot of race cars and we would do string alignments on every one of them. Super simple. Effective. Level and a magnetic camber bubble level.
Excellent video. Every car/truck enthusiast is experiencing these issues since Covid. Hard to find good shops! Overall excellent advice and excellent presentation on this topic.
Thank you for this post. I recently decided to work on my own truck and was abhorred and disgusted to find sub par work throughout. Every single maintenance item was done poorly- from my diff drain plug and fill plug being switched to my oil filter being over- torqued, it’s hard to find an honest mechanic. This is where the old adage, knowledge is power, applies!
Topic is on point ... I have a buddy who recently decided to jump from the stock 265's to 285's on his Tacoma requiring a second set of UCA's in order to move the wheel forward enough possibly avoiding the cab mount chop. (that's a whole new topic, who do you want cutting and torching on your rig?) The manufacturer of the new UPC's supplied alignment spec's which a local shop ending in "wab" stated ... "no problem". After picking up his rig he found the specs to be all over the board with the pending excuse of "we are required to align to manufactures specifications". Longer story short the truck now had handling issues and he had to have a warranty alignment done out of state. Finding a shop that is privately owned and that you can trust seems to be the ticket these days.... or do the work yourself.
I finally found a tire shop that gave me a great deal and really good service. They were honest enough to say that they couldn't align my 4Runner the first time I replaced tires because of those bolts on the lower control arm. When I went back in to get suspension work done, they then replaced the lower control arms. I also found a shop that rebuilds hot rods and off road vehicles. They've been in business for decades in the same place with the same owner and have worked on my full size van tow vehicle and my 4Runner. This shop isn't even local to me, but I'll drive to use them. They rebuilt my rear end and added a Posi unit in the process in the van. I hope I leave this miserable world before they close down. My son had a supercharged NSX and took his car to a shop over 30 miles away because they specialized in that model. In fact, when my son decided to sell his NSX, that shop made him a great offer so that car became their advertising model.
I feel your challenge. I stopped going to the original stealership, and back to a previous independent shop. I used to drive 3h30 away for a proper motorcycle "tune", as another example of finding worthy shops
Coming from a shop owner of 30 plus years, the first thing that comes to mind is the fact you have modified your truck to a point that even the most qualified technicians do not know all the modifications that you have made. They are trained for stock vehicle's. So you go to a national chain or a mom and pop shop, they do not know what they are dealing with, or better yet, how to deal with it. The bent or broken tabs are a sign that you have pushed the limits of the engineering design for an IFS vehicle. No doubt you have spent an enormous amount of money trying to attain the best of both worlds, tough truck with IFS ride quality, but the truth is, every time your vehicle takes a hit, your alignment is knocked out. You are adding weight with bigger tires, more suspension components, and added gear that compounds the issue. So even if the alignment is on when it leaved the shop, the first or second hit will knock it out. So I believe that the owner/modifier can only be the one to blame. You have dramatically changed the engineered design of your vehicle. Most alignment shops will get you the best results based on that, but once again they are doing the best they can under the circumstances. My advice is that you contact the manufacturer or seller of the aftermarket products you purchased and ask them alignment spec's and who they recommend in your area. Oh and coming from a Toyota nut, that has heavily modified his Toyota Tundra. I buy budget orientated tires, that still perform well, just don't last as long for that exact reason.
Look I get the challenges you are dealing with as a Shop owner... BUT, if you cant aligne my vehicle then tell me... dont charge me and send me on my way with a vehicle that clearly is not aligned and will not stay aligned... a little honesty and integrity is all I ask... I cant fix the problem if I don't know it exist.
@@OutdoorAuto How would they know if they've never seen it before? You have to replace/service the heims on those shocks too. If they're worn out, that service tech won't have a clue. If they find it and try to fix it, they will 99% fuck up the shaft, probably have the wrong heim, and won't know how to install it to the right depth+torque. Before you was a honda odyssey that needed a new AC compressor and after you is a pontiac Aztek with a new water pump. You're in there with bypass shocks and a long arm kit. Buyer beware.
Again... someone switched out my actual cam without telling me for one that wasn't even for a Tundra, over half the cam tabs were crushed... they don't need to touch the heims... the need to tell me that the truck can't be aligned... EXACTLY like the good shop I went to did... Hard for a buyer to beware when everyone looks at it and tells me they can do it no problem.
So this is the first thing I did before upgrading any suspension on my Tacoma. Some of my tabs were flat ended up using the marlin crawler cages. It’s a long job, but it’s worth it in the end to hold an alignment.
This is exactly why I do as much as I can myself. The mechanic shop that I do use when it's something I don't have the equipment for, was recommended by a coworker/friend. They were quickly vetted when they could have ripped me off but didn't. Their parking lot is always full and you are going to have to wait a few days to get whatever service done. I always recommend them when people ask and they do.
I agree 100%. That's why I watch channels like yours and appreciate the real life information and education you deliver. It's unfortunate but I have to educate myself as much as possible just to have enough information to have a general idea of why I am taking my vehicle in for repair or even basic service. Off roading and camping is just a hobby for me so there is only so much I can do to "pre-educate" myself.due to my other responsibilities. I have been lied to, cheated, hoodwinked, bamboozled and everything else once too many times and most of it has been in the past 5 years or so. What should be a simple process to have your car repaired has become more stressful and aggravating that it should be. However I find that to be the case for a lot of other trades as well like plumbing, electrical, HVAC, appliance repair etc. It's just not the same world today. Enough ranting but again, thank you so much for the content you put out. It is extremely helpful.
Yeah one thing I am trying to "normalize" is sharing learnings even when they are embarrassing... I ran a tech company for years... Automotive has always been a hobby of mine and it is painfully obvious that even though I continue to learn there is always tons more to know.
I do ALL of my own work in my own garage. What I've learned with vehicles going off road is It's hard to have one perform like it should all the time in both environments. I have an off road truck that I just get the alignment close as I can and if I'm doing a lot of driving on pavement, I go get my in town ride. If I want to hit the off road park hours away, I trailer it.
I'm one if the few young guys that tried to go into the trades. Both the jobs I had in mine, nobody cared about their work and nobody had any idea what the specifications were that we were supposed to be working to. Management always ends up hassling me because I can't keep up with people who are doing half the work that I am. Now I can't even get a job because I've quit too many.
As an automotive technician myself, i can say most do not get payed enough or care enought to point out that problem to a customer. Most go by the philosophy that " if its in the green, its good to go" with no forethought that because the tabs are bent that the alignment will come undone at the first obstacle or washboard roads we would encounter offroad. I am also leery of major chains and dealers and in general whenever i dont want to work on my own truck i take it to the local mom and pop shop who always take their time to do a good job and let me know if there's an issue with anything. Also, i don't offroad a Toyota, but on my truck i tack weld the camber tabs in place, as i find that only has to adjusted after major suspension changes like control arms. So i just tow N' go(as they say) after every few offroad trips when the alignment gets out and i find that speeds up the process
You made a good point with the alignment issue, I think it applies to any off roader regardless of make and model. We tend to stress our vehicles more than the average driver, I will reiterate a point you made. Learn the basics of every suspension component, you don't need to be an expert like you said, you just need to know enough to spot shoddy work or potential problems. Keep up the good work! Your videos are well worth the time to watch and I tend to learn something new with each one.
This has been the story of my life for the last 15 years. Learning how to properly work on my car unveiled many terrible jobs professionals left behind only for me to finally do it correctly. One of my last chapters was learning how to string a toe align and set up caster/camber angles after an alignment tech botched a job I gave him. My confidence in any mechanic was long gone. Fast forward to today after retiring the old lady bought in '93 -- I continue to wrench on an older 4runner and don't hesistate to do maintenance and upgrades on the new vehicle I bought last year. When I finally decide to get work done at a shop again because time in the garage is better spent elsewhere, I will scrutinize the returned product to make sure it meets my standards because of trust issues. And that's the entertaining, but challenging world I live in :)
@@OutdoorAuto my shop charges $150 plus an extra $30 in materials to do this. It's cheaper then buying a cam tab gusset kit which requires a lot more welding and grinding time
Loved your story. I've been a shade tree mechanic, and then an electronic-mechanical tech/engineer since about nine years old. I was born with an engineers brain and it drove my parents mad. That said, I don't know everything but I can usually find out or figure it out. Usually. I think the problem you address is the production line mindset where techs have little say in repair times. You get it done quickly or you're hit on your performance reviews and pay scale. Where revenue is king that's just a fact of life. It tends to drive some people nuts whereby they either start their own shop, find another employer, or do something completely different. I imagine this will be an eye opener for some.
Great video. I’ll be 59 this year and I still do all of this type of work myself. I have also tried to outsource to local shops, and all they do is charge money and make a mess out of the alignment. My wife took delivery of her brand new jeep, Rubicon. Prior to heading out west last year, I replaced every single stock suspension component with Clayton Offroad products. I needed this to be right, so my son and I did it ourselves, including the alignment. Sad reality but if you want it done right, learn how to do it and do it yourself.
I called one of those national chain to do an alignment after lifting my Tacoma. The guy who I talked to was completely honest and told me they don't have the right equipment to do an alignment for after market lifts. I took it to a small local shop that has been in business for 90+ years and they did an amazing job.
I had a similar experience (this is a long one). Mine is a 2008 V8 Nissan Pathfinder and they have IFS & IRS. Now, I had put the 2" Bilstein 5100's in the front with new V8 coils and new LCA's and opted for the lower adjustable cam bolts for it. I had put new rear coils in it with a Rancho 1-3/4" spacer too. I took it to a regional chain here in NJ. They were told multiple times, because I wanted it to be clear, that there was a 2" strut lift, and a rear spacer lift and that it would need a four wheel alignment. I should have known I was in for a ride after I took it down the street and let go of the steering wheel and it damn near made a 90 degree right turn. I immediately took it back to the shop, and the said that I would have to wait till the next day to have it looked at. I took it back to the chain, and when I left it seemed to go straight and stop straight. But something still didn't feel right. Then one day I noticed... the rear tires were worn really bad on the inside. So, I bit the bullet and took it to OK 4WD here in Jersey on the PA border to get it aligned. They told me that they couldn't do it without replacing the rear suspension and that there was no way in hell that the chain store could have done a rear alignment on it, because all of the bolts were frozen inside of the bushings. They gave me the printout (which the other place never did), and I headed back to the chain store. Of course there was a new manager, and he listened to what I had to say, and looked at the print out too. I did get my money refunded, but I was still out a pair of MT Baja Boss AT's. Their corporate wouldn't pay to replace the tires, just gave me a store credit for not even a third of what they cost. I did take it to another shop to have the rear UCA's and LCA's and spring bucket arm replaced. He did do an alignment on it, showed me the results, and straight up told me that he could only get it close in the rear, and that I would need to take the spacer lift out and drop the IRS subframe to get it to align. I'm now (and should have then) preparing to do a Titan swap in the front, and an Armada swap in the rear.
4Runner owner here, I take a look at these tabs every time I get under the truck. The good news is that laying a weld bead down behind the tab seam gets you 90% of that benefit of aftermarket alignment tabs IF they're not beat flat already. As for trusting the people who work on my stuff, the simple fact is I don't.
Iv worked at dealers where sometimes they had premade alignment sheets printed out and the job never actually got done. This was like 15 years ago, but im sure this type of stuff still happens. Really need to find a trustworthy mechanic. Pretty sure with a modern laser alignment machine, your tabs don't matter all that much. You don't need the little reference points because it's all figured out with the machine. I could be wrong.
Thank you! I had no idea as I rely on mechanics to do alignment. As you said we can learn everything and need to rely on others. Finding a good shop/mechanic is critical. I know it’s a good shop when they answer my initial questions, call with additional problems when encountered, and always spend time explaining what was done when I come to pick it up. You right, that good shop is not a big chain nor are they quick to get into. Thanks for the education on alignment and how to spot a less than dedicated shop.
Many auto shops pay their mechanics on a system that encourages speed over quality. So basically if a mechanic can pump out 12 hours worth of work in an 8 hour day, they sometimes get paid for 12 hours of production regardless of quality. I still think it is up to the individual mechanic to determine if the paycheck covers sacrificing their integrity. When you work 40 hours but get paid for 60, it is hard to slow down for some.
My solution for this issue I've learned years ago. By not taking my truck to anyone and do all the work myself. I'm surprised that you didn't notice the bolts not moved when you said about rebuilding the front end.
Thank you for highlighting this. Yup, it's a HUGE problem. It wasn't until I started doing some of my on auto maintenance that I saw all the problems and broken parts caused by "professional mechanics". My sister insists on doing her own maintenance for this reason. Great Video and a good question for the audience...
I like to combine cam tab reinforcements with marlin crawler lca gussets to really reinforce the lca pivots and cam tabs. I take all of my clients vehicles personally to my alignment guy and i get under the lift with him. its a great business relationship and ensures we are aware of any current issues. ive gone through alot of alignment shops in the last few years before i finally found someone that knows what theyre doing
I try to pay attention to everything under the truck when I go under. I will go under for the problem and then spend a stupid amount of time looking at everything thing else . Looking for rust, loose bolts , wires , air lines …. Any movement on my cam plates from the marks I made after getting it aligned. Leakes , wet spots ect .. anything and everything that I can look at I look at. I mean I do a little plotting and planning on up grades or what I need to do.. like get thicker armor under my front diff and some armor on my Gtank . BUT YOUR point is very very valid.
I forgot to add to my comments your included in who I pay attention to. The posting about overloaded rigs caught my attention and hence my last suspension upgrade to include weighing my gear and trimming down what I carry. Thanks for the advice and great channel.
Excellent video. This is information that needs to be out there and you did a great job delivering it. I learned this lesson in a very similar fashion about 3 years ago. I now only trust 2 shops in my area and prefer to use just one of them for anything that I can't do myself. Both are mom and pop shops. I only let the national chains mount and balance my tires lol.
I have a small bicycle shop and workshop. Based on the customers return rate assume that we are doing good work. So my advice is find the shop where you believe to guys and become their regular customer, create relatioship. If you will, they will provide you with benefit of special short lead times and so on. The same as we do. For good customer I will stay overtime with no doubts just make him/her happy. Because I know that he will return an spend much more money with us. He will tell his friends about us and I will have a base of customers who value the good quality work and wish to spend bit more money for such work (compare to big anonymous shops)
I (was) a semi- competitive cyclist / enthusiast. Rode big miles and commuted a good distance to work. As a result, I wore out parts. Our team had two shops as sponsors. Both were good. But I'd always go to my favorite mechanic and bring him / the shop a six pack when I picked up my bike. He actually made a big mistake once. It was a huge safety issue and I could have been badly injured. he forgot to verify that the stem bolts holding the handlebars were tight. During my first ride the next day, I braked hard with my hands on the hoods at a downhill intersection and my handlebars rotated so that the brakes/brifters rotated downward mostly out of reach and I actually ran into the intersection. The mechanic acknowledged the error, noting that they are "supposed" to check torque and tightness on each bolt before sending the bike out..... Nobody is perfect. He's still my favorite cycling wrench....shop is good too. Point being, folks do make mistakes, but I trust the shop and the wrench so I go back and recommend the shop to others. (Although maybe I should always check everything related to "stopping" the bike when it comes home from service - I have all the tools).
@jimrice4699 sure we do, all of us. I am with you fully. I have a ritual that I check breaks, handlebars, freeplay in wheelsets, and headsets on my bikes and motorcycle. Nothing sophisticated, just 20 sec check. The same I do in front of customer with his bike during the handover, to minimize the possible issue.
The alignment tab is for the cam to rest on during installation. Under proper torque the bolt crushes the inner sleave of the bushing and the mount together such that no movement should be possible or it's not setup right. If that bolt moved it would mean it's setup incorrectly.
Who knows why as you said you haven't been paying attention. Your suspension rides on bushings not bolts. Those tabs ensure that the bolts are correctly aligned before the mount and bushing are crushed together. The interface between the bushing and it's inner sleave is where the rotation happens.
I’m sure under normal use, with stock wheel offset/backspacing, and suspension height, those cam stops probably hold up quite well. You are totally correct that the industry is losing far too many mechanics with vast knowledge due to age, at this point, you’ll have to take your loss and chock it up to missing the install of the cam tab reinforcing kit. Happy trails!
I feel your pain. Smaller specialty shops are definitely my preference for all of the reasons mentioned. Poor shop reliability has had me doing more and more of my own work with, frankly, better results.
i bought a used alignment kit "Haweye", and you prob need to make custom brackets in house if you go crazy on the lift, the max adjustment is not enough on stock brackets ,, "TIP" load the car like you drive it fully loaded for trip, and do the control
First video iv seen on the channel. I'm looking at buying a 21 or prior tundra so thanks for the head ups on alingments! There was a old man at the CarX in Carpentersville Illinois. He worked on my families cars for years, everything from oil changes, to clutch replacements and two motor swaps on my dads Pathfinder and Xterra. Since he left, iv tried 10 different shops over the past decade. The worst was midas
I find going to shops that set up race vehicles is the best. For instance in the case of alignments go to the shop and ask if they have a guy that sets up race vehicles and does custom alignments. If they don't do custom alignments it's likely the techs will just do what the machine/computer tells them to do regardless if it even makes sense. This is because they don't really know anything about alignment and can't recognize that what the computer is telling them is wrong. Alignment computers don't always give the correct stats they need to be calibrated regularly. A tech that sets up race cars will instantly get a bad name if he screws up and or does bad work because racers know right away if its right or not. Loosing races sucks and wearing out tires because of a bad alignment sucks bad. You should also understand what alignment stats you want, what they are, how they work and what they mean. It's not very difficult and it's interesting. Take the time and learn about your vehicle.
95% of tire shops are gonna set the toe and send it, which to be fair is usually all that is needed. Most cars have caster and camber that are not made to be as easily adjusted as the toe is. I do my camber and caster at home, and then let the shop do the toe as that's the only part that really needs the accuracy of the alignment rack. Afterwards you get a print out and can see if the work you did was right.
I agree with all of your experiences and recommendations. I've had factory certified mechanics at multiple dealerships break my vehicle, and it was only on my after work inspection that I found their bad work. In my local Jeep club of over 1600, we all agree on two local shops, that appointments are always backed up for more than 2 weeks to get in.
Gotta say watching Nate and Max Powell have given me some insight, coupled by my local Toyota Dealership service department. I've used the same outfit that Max uses and between the two its worked out well. I also follow the Taco forum. I also have the dealership do a 2nd check after a 3rd party service such as alignment or if I've done my own work. I'm retired so I know that not everyone has the same resources.
I had this exact issue with my 95 Ford Ranger. I built extended radius arms for the truck, installed replacement levelling springs, and adjustable alignment bushings. A tire shop assured me over the phone they had an experienced guy who knew I-beam Fords, and aftermarket suspension wasn't an issue. Waited in the customer lounge for 3 hours before the tech came out and said, "your frame is bent, we can't align this". They wouldn't let me back in the shop to look (they already dropped my truck in the parking lot for the next customer). I ended up watching a bunch of videos, rigged up lasers, levels, and strings and did it myself in about a day.
Yes, a local small shop is the best. I've been turning wrenches all my life. Older people, Old books, manuals, and now TH-cam are your best friends for information.
Good info. Regarding less than professional shops... we all have been there. I do as much as possible on my F250. If a shop does it, I expect them to make errors/break things and to gaff it off for me. I check (when all possible) work for fit and finish. This goes for the dealership or the local shop. Unprofessionalism (good enough) is the rule for a majority. When you find a true professional...tell them about their work and support them.
We had a family owned front end alignment shop here for over 50 years and were rated on of the top shops in the nation and took great care of the customer and they finally decided to call it quits sold it to another company that also is an alignment shop and they shut it down and now all you have is the big box store tire shops that do crappie work. It’s really hard to trust people and shops anymore.
You nailed it, they dont adjust or fill the transmission fluid. I just found that out after going many years. And if you start missing parts well guess what?
You are so right, I do all the work on my Defender (95') BUT also have a good friend who runs a Defender customization shop, he helps me when I need special tools or knowledge but does not do the work, I have to do it, he teaches.. So they are out there but rare and far between.. For my LC200, I have been going to dealer bc I just don't know who to trust and I know I can't trust them but I get the service stamp in my book so to speak..so its worth at least something (and they re mostly reasonable with pricing as well) - another good Vid !! Keep it up !!
This may sound strange to most of us but some of this goes back to our public schools. From an educator (30 years in public and county vo-tech schools) on why some of the reasons for shortages of young mechanics. When public school districts have cuts in their budgets that come down from their state because of budget issues, the first areas they cut are elective classes. Any shop class in a high school and middle school is an elective class, so they would get cut, especially if their numbers of students in a class is down. Other elective classes are: Business, Home Economics, Computers, Music, Band, Art, gym (unless gym classes are required by the state for graduation) and those classes are usually one or two semester classes. So, look at your school district’s elective class offerings. And one more BIG cut to elective classes has to do with states that have yearly State Exams in May or close to the end of a school year. These state tests usually start in elementary schools and go through to graduation from high school. In some states if your son or daughter don’t pass that final test in high school, they won’t get a High School Diploma. If a school doesn’t have results that are good to very good on those state tests, the school district will add additional classes in their schools in the tested areas that they did poorly in, such as and usual in English and Math. So, requirements in those two areas will double. Guess what, some more elective classes will HAVE TO BE CUT again. That happened in my old school district. It may have happened in your public school district. Then there’s your County Vocational Schools. Usually those students take their basic graduation requirements for graduation in the morning and their Vo-Tech program is in the afternoon but they get tested too. I’m not sure what happens if a Vo-Tech student doesn’t pass the State Exams in English/Language Arts and/or in Math. My guess is they may have to take a extra English and/or Math classes, if the aren’t already doing that in their morning classes. And then our school districts all get compared to all of the other public schools in the state. The number of students in a class is always looked at for consolidation of classes to cut expenses. It’s just like a business and I worked there too. Your biggest expense are employees and benefits. If you cut people, you save not only their salary but the cost of their benefits. In a store, if you don’t increase your sales, you can’t have more associates or employees. If your stores sales figures decrease, you cut employees because you can’t afford all of those employees. If your store has high shrinkage or theft percentages … say higher than 3.0% or 3.5%, which could be from shoplifters and/or from employees, as that store becomes more unprofitable and if it doesn’t fix the problem, it could be closed by the home office. That’s happening in a lot of the bigger cities in the country. So, there’s some of the latest on the cutting of shop classes in public schools. Stay safe everyone and keep prepping every day, because it’s the only way, to stay safe. 🙏🏼🇺🇸
Appreciate you making a video on this! I’ve had a nagging pull to the right for a while even after getting several alignments and rotating tires. Gonna check for this next time I’m under my 4runner.
To be fair i feel like most alignment and tire shops especially franchises are filled with neck downs, people who gave up on life, and people with their 1st or 2nd job. Your last bit of advice on going to a shop that’s available instead of booked is great.
You are right on. We must learn about and take responsibility that it gets done right. Cause it's a train wreck out there. + do what you can yourself. And find a local small shop that cares and charges accordingly for what you cannot do.
And THAT is part of the reason I drive a Jeep! Not a single alignment tab on the front of my Gladiator. If I really want/need to align it I'll buy some adjustable control arms.
There is a reason why the shop I use has been in business 40 years and run by the same family. They’re honest and the work is always done on time and correctly.
Seems like a piss poor design flaw. Are others like this or just toyota? Most shops want you in, pay up and get out. Not really caring about what the customer wants or quality of their work. I asked for hardened valve seats for my engine from a reputable engine shop. It was highly recommended by a circle track racer. Years later when I had more engine work, I was told valve seats were not hardened, resulting in more wear. The shop knew I couldn't check their work and had ripped me off. I had my exhaust system replaced on my 70 challenger by Johnny Franklin mufflers in Santa Rosa. It was recommended by several acquaintances. I asked for stock hangers to keep the car as original as possible. The shop put in whatever hangers they had handy. Again a supposedly reputable shop. Not. I've learned most shops are rip offs. Find an independent with a good rep. Be specific and let them know you'll be checking their work.
You need to weld on some cam tab gussets and get a cam eliminator kit, not only will it reinforce those tabs but your alignment will stay true after a trip 👌
I have worked in several custom automotive shops including a Landcruiser Specialty shop in Idaho, what I have learned is exactly what you’re saying. We had our reputation on the line and never felt it necessary to rush a job out the door, quality over everything. I have also found that if you’re working with custom vehicles the best way to go is find someone that specializes in that vehicle or brand. No one can do top tier quality work and know everything about all vehicles. It pays to have a mechanic that knows your vehicle inside and out 👍
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Subscribe if you noticed I had to film this whole thing with an embarrassingly large pimple on my nose.
I didn't even notice😅
But I'm subscribed
Already subscribed but yeah MOLE ha ha ha ha ha
I still think you’re handsome 🤩
I'm already subscribed... you're going to have to hire a make up artist LOL
You can mention the name of the shops that did you right, even if you don't want to say who did you wrong.
As a mechanic who’s worked in National chain stores and even dealerships I can attest that there is a “get it in and get it out…” mentality. Often times was told to “Toe-N-Go”. I can also tell you the attention To employee retention is just not there. I found when I worked for “Mom & Pop” shops there was more effort put in getting it done right the first time and being honest with customers. The industry is different from commercialized to independent. I’ve Since opened my own business that caters to the off-road industry and am active in my overland group. We aim to be a one stop shop that specializes in everything from maintenance, heavy repairs, aftermarket modifications and more. We Mark every one of our camber/caster plates with a reference mark, and write the torque spec on the Subframe. We don’t have an alignment rack just yet and have a near by Shop sublet them. After the alignment is completed we recheck the bolt torque as well as take note to see if any camber/caster plates have been rotated. Like Ronald Reagan used to say “Trust, But Verify..”
Trust but Verify... I like that. Great advice and good luck with your shop.
I appreciate this post. Especially the trust but verify statement. I have worked as a mechanic and I'm more than capable of doing "most" of my own repairs... I just don't have the time for some things, and less motivation to do it myself when it's a chore. Example 1: The fuel pump failed on my 2010 Silverado. I have changed plenty and know the drill (loosen bed bolts, tip bed to one side, swap pump, etc..) but didn't have the time. Part was $300 after tax at the local parts store, and my local mechanic quoted $475 complete, including the part. That's $175 I was happy to spend to not have to deal with it, and it's a job that's hard to screw up, and immediately obvious if not done right. They did a great job. Example B: Oil pressure on same truck fell to zero one morning. I suspected either the oil pump or oil sending unit (but was quite sure it was the OSU because your gauge will never go to zero with an oil pump... it will just show very low oil pressure, generally). Called same shop and asked what they would charge to change the oil pump, wanting to see how they answered the question. The very honest man said, "Please let us check it to make sure if it's the OSU and not the oil pump. The difference in price is close to $1000, and we wouldn't want you to pay more than needed". That right there is why I let them continue to work on my cars when I don't want to.
This is an interesting comment. I’ve had great experience with Firestone. I started going to Firestone because two guys I grew up with worked there for years and they told me about the seriousness that upper management takes customer complaints. Obviously, you have a personal incentive to knock national chains but I would be interested to know if Firestone (who I suspect might be involved in this video) was one of the bad ones in your experience. Thx
@@1rstTry nope… never worked with Firestone.
@@OutdoorAuto that’s a bit of a relief. Sorry to hear about your experiences, man. Major bummer
I was an mechanic for 27 years at a national chain shop. I was considered to be one of the best alignment guys in the city, and I strove to do everything, not just alignments, as perfect as humanly possible! But the sad fact is, I was a rarity! It all boils down to whether a person takes pride in their work or not! I did. It was either going to be right, or I wasn’t going to do it. Now that I’m retired, I do all of the work on my own vehicles that I can do. I have a pretty well equipped shop at home, but I can’t justify buying an alignment machine. I cringe every time I have to take a vehicle to someone else! It is beyond frustrating because it seems that no one cares about the quality of their work! I considered my reputation to be very important, but as I said, I am rarity! I don’t know the answer!
A good alignment tech is worth their weight in gold. I get laughed at on FB for paying $180 for an alignment but he touches every bolt, and then tells me what's going on where. I cringe every time someone says they just get the lifetime alignment from the chain shops because of stuff like this video. Now that you have an good shop with an honest tech, hold them close and treat them well! I always tip my alignment tech because he's so thorough.
You better believe I gave them a massive tip… they told me they don’t take tips and I said if they don’t take it I’d leave it in the parking lot.
Just wanted to say not all of us that did the "lifetime" alignments didn't do their jobs correctly. I will add that almost every major shop uses Hunter Alignment machines. ALWAYS ask for a before and after print out. Even still you as a customer don't have to know much. Just look for shiny metal near the corners of adjustments. If they are still dirty - they weren't touched. Maybe for good reason maybe not.
I now am a truck driver though. Between busting my knuckles on rigged up trailer queens and an overwhelming customer base that is about as appreciative as cougar that pet a porcupine I had enough.
You are right though most new techs do not know what the WHY is to what adjustments they are making. They just see green is good. Most don't even know the angles as the alignment machine software has diagrams and videos that will show them what to adjust.
@@OutdoorAuto tips don't have to be monetary, bring the shop doughnuts, or coffee from a local coffee shop, or a meat and cheese platter, it is a simple cheap non monetary way to get the best service or to show your appreciation for good quality work.
there's a shop in denver that's famous for quality alignments and they do lifted razors , rat rods, lifted trucks, slammed stance cars, i take my car there with all adjustable control arms slammed on fortune auto coilovers and they charge by "as long as it takes" to get the numbers on the money, cost me $300 2 hours and everything is on the money to the 2nd decimal digit
This is the type of video we need more of. I tend to rely on professionals for my automotive work/repairs as well, but over the last several decades I have been learning what to at least look for as far as the work actually getting done. Good video, keep it up.
Thanks for watching... its really has been eye opening for me... a little bit of knowledge can equal a lot better decision making.
I’m a high end trim carpenter. My company is a two man operation with myself and my dad. We care a lot about our work and our customers. I hear a lot of horror stories about contractors and it upsets me because it creates a stigma that the good workmen have to deal with. I’m sorry to hear about your truck. My mechanic is a family friend so that’s how I vet mine
Family connection... definitely another valid way to find a good mechanic.
As a mechanic and shop owner, the large national chain stores need to be thought of as the "fast food" of automotive repair. They typically don't pay their technicians well and have a revolving door mentality on technician retention.
As far as the specific issue you have with your truck. Being someone that appears to DIY a lot of thier own repairs, you not noticing that isn't the end of the world, you have found the correct repair already. But as a whole the biggest thing that can be done is having your vehicle inspected by a reputable shop at minimum. And preferably a shop that is highly detail oriented and specializes in the type of vehilce you drive. An added bonus is if the shop specializes in the type of modifications you have installed as well.
Great video and I'm looking forward to seeing more about this issue as a whole. Thank you.
Great advice, and thanks for weighing in as a shop owner... I definitely don't want to throw all techs under the bus... when I do find a good shop... they are worth every penny.
Love honest learning videos like this. Thank you for another realistic experience, you’re a great grounded channel in the flashy spendy off-road side of TH-cam
Well thanks for the support, I can only keep doing this if people like you watch the videos.
Taco Tabs and alignment block reinforcement. And get some limit straps on those lower arms. Your stressing your CV axles in full droop You have the tabs for them. Diff drop spacers as well. Bring it to me I can fix that issue for you. Its best to get all the parts together. There really isnt a all in one kit. You need to have someone who knows their way around a 4x4. You enter into a different realm of car care when you go that full customs suspension. It has to be aligned with a racecar/ buggy type alignment setup. Sometimes caster and camber wont be achieved 100% dead on due to ne angles introduced. Its a huge learning curve from the straight axle days.
just ruined a set of new Toyos on my Bronco, with an alignment that i paid for but never happened. i feel your pain. Worse, i own repair shops, employ about 90 technician from entry level to master technician level. I'd love to have a conversation with you about how to fill the massive void of qualified technicians. Currently looking at how to create an outside of the box training platform, not associated with tech schools, gov't funding, required English, Math, onsite attendance, etc. the things that don't really matter in repairing a vehicle and create barriers to many men and women looking to enter the field.
Go grt the boys 8n high school. Thise you slknow wont make it to college. Our apciety has changed and not for the best academically.
The level of pride from work is not there anynore.
I got chronically ill and had to reinvent myself. So i switched from construction worker (had my company, lost everything when i got sick) to client service for a bank. I was surrounded by entry level people, 20yo kids fresh out of school.
The level of professionalism is SO LOW. What we want and need will not come from the school system.
And so thats why i suggest you to go get them before they thrie the towel or get corrupted and spoiled.
Structured training plans with clearly defined goals and marked compensation increases upon completion of said goals is a good place to start. I could realistically sit down with you and talk about these issues for about a week lol. I was a machine shop supervisor for 5 years...I learned A LOT and developed a lot of individuals.
That wasn’t robbery. It was poor workmanship coupled with your poor expectations of aftermarket mods.
It doesn't matter if the tech is a master or beginner. People are not the same as yesterday. (Heartless dead inside)
I have never been a mechanic myself, but my understanding is that many of them are expected to have their own tools. And buying a whole set of tools is expensive. That's definitely going to be a huge barrier to entry for anyone that doesn't happen to already own a bunch of tools for some reason.
Also, it is my understanding that most mechanics are paid per job, not per hour. This type of compensation encourages cutting corners, because the faster a tech can get a car in and out the more jobs they can do in a day and the more money they make. And the fastest way to get work done is to do it shoddily (or just not actually do it but claim it was done). There should be financial incentive to doing the job RIGHT, not doing it FAST.
To think that those little tabs are what keep your alignment is part sad and part scary. A truly competent technician does not even require these to do an alignment.
I have had the opposite experience as this one.
I have a 2007 F150 with 301,000 hard miles.
After replacing ball joints myself, it was a Friday and I was in a hurry and my local guy couldn't fit me in until Tuesday. Called big chain shop and they said they could fit me in first thing the next morning.
Next morning, they said that because the tabs were not perfect, they were unable to do an alignment.
Took in to local shop Tuesday. Told them about it, showed receipt from other shop. He just laughed.
Then he explained the situation.
A tech that doesn't really understand suspensions/alignment will hook it all up to an alignment computer system. Then they simply follow directions from that screen. Loosen nut "A" turn cam "B" ?? degrees, like a paint by numbers... They obviously don't know what or why they are changing, just that the computer told them to.
If the parts on the truck don't match exactly with what's on the computer screen, the tech is helpless.
Local guy has been working on farm trucks, hunting trucks etc for over 40 years. Does having the exact pieces make it simpler? Absolutely! Are they "required" in order to do alignment? Absolutely not.
He has a lot of tools that he can work with and does exacting work.
So, perhaps the guy that pointed out the problem is not really the hero. Perhaps some of the guys doing the work without complaining WERE actually giving you quality alignments...
Just my personal experience for the 7.3 cents that it's worth.
Local, YES, Big box, NO but NOT for the reasons you gave...
One of the first things I do on a Toyota I plan to offroad is install a Cam Tab Gusset kit from Total Chaos, or Marlin Crawler to avoid this kind of thing.
Also be sure to put anti-seize on the cam bolts or they'll practically weld themselves in place.
The marlin kit is very reasonable and looks great
This exactly. It's been an issue on IFS toyotas since IFS toyota trucks first came out. My '01 would shift alignment with every good knock off road. I opted to get a lifetime alignment from firestone.
Agreed, cut those things out all the time! Also use the OEM parts!
I don’t trust most shops either, I own a Chevy now and my alignment stays in alignment better than my three Toyotas,… it’s a sad fact that most shops are rushing the mechanics way too much, it’s not necessarily that the mechanic doesn’t know anything, it’s the shop telling them to rush… they literally look very briefly and never spend time figuring things out.. also most shops over torque my wheels and warp the brake rotors, you don’t know the rotors are warped until you try stopping at high speeds…
It’s troublesome that there were so many untrustworthy shops encountered. However from a mechanical perspective, these OEM tabs are engineered for stock tires, and probably become the weak link with oversized tires. Good to know that aftermarket suppliers have addressed this issue with replacement upgraded hardware.
When I was a kid I paid for new shocks and struts installed on my car. As an adult, I do them myself, it's an easy job. Also, when I was younger, I got an oil change, with new air filter and fluids (got upsold) and a free carwash. Drove around for a week before I found the air filter cover was not reinstalled. Since I learned to not trust shops and being confident in my own abilities, I haven't paid for vehicle service in twenty years. I do all my own maintenance. I enjoy buying new tools for the job and learning how to do my own wrenching. Sadly, if you want it done right, you have to do it yourself.
I'm 62 and I've lived and worked all up and down the west coast from San Diego to Seatle. Over my life. I've only found a couple of totally honest shops... No e of these these honest shops have been any of the chanes....
I'm an electrician by trade who does service work. Some of the things I've been told to do by the shop I was working for are unbelievable. I've refused of coarse... However, when push comes to shove, I've had to quit my job for the sake of my own integrity.
The biggest problem I've had is the up-sell.
That's where you're called to do a specific diagnostic/repair and the shop expects you to look for any number of things that might be wrong or could go wrong and try to push the customer with manipulation tactics into doing the extra work whether they need it or not... They actually put you through training for this and try to convince you its in the customers' best interest that you get them to do this extra work.
Look at who people in the local rally/racing community use if you’re in a more populated area. When you have shop techs and owners who deal with motorsports regulators, you can be reasonably assured that they have a proper eye for detail and care.
This is a very good recommendation...
How true! Almost all of my suspension wisdom came from track and ice racing. Nothing beats daily suspension adjustments.
I am a Toyota MDT and I see this from aftermarket shops all the time. A lot of tundra and tacos come in with the eccentric upside-down too. This is more often than not caused by the alignment themselves. If you don't take the weight off of the control arms and try to force the eccentrics over it bends the tabs down. I'm sure very rough roads can cause it but I'd put my money on the tech who did the alignmwnt. You can weld the back side of the tabs to strengthen them. You can bend those tabs back upalignment on this truck. Most dealerships will sublet that or refer them to another shop because they don't want to deal with it.
About your alignment issues... 😳😯🤯 Now, I'm going to run out and check under my rig! Thank you once again, Sir! 👊🏽
This is why I try to DIY almost everything on my vehicles except major engine work, and computer related issues.
Makes sense to me
The computer stuff is often easy leash I found out. I don’t mind it now.
As a Mechanic myself, I can attst to lack of blue collar professionals. Work in a fleet now and we are at half staffing and have been for years now😢. Only ever worked in mom and pop shops so we took done right first time to heart. Mistakes happen but they’re fixable, it’s what we do. Have seen those bent tabs often on Toyotas , mostly off-roaders but like you said they’re is a healthy aftermarket fixes for it. Just get a quality and well known brand and good to go.
Love your videos, keep up the great work!
I appreciate the honesty. This isn't a vendetta against mechanics... I love a good mechanic as much as anyone... but these shortages are affecting quality and it is tough to navigate.
Incompetence is the true pandemic.
I've had so many similar experiences that I now do 95% of my own maintenance, just so I can have the peace of mind knowing it's been done right.
Alignments were not on that list, because I don't have the equipment to do it... but now I'm going to have figure this out too or I'll have alignment anxiety thanks this new information. Wonderful.
Oh no… sorry to create more work for you… but… yeah… it was bad 😳
I’m going to photograph my cams before the next alignment for sure.
good idea! I am going to go look at mine now, and if they are bad, im going to attempt to fix and weld in support
I was thinking of taking a pen to mark them to see if they adjust them.
I always mark tie rod, sleeve, a photograph i will use next, great idea
Also, get a centre punch and a light tap to see if has even moved.
It is almost worth getting a MEASURE and REPORT only, should be cheaper and educational.
Then ... reading the specs, the service manual procedures, figure the settings you need - especially if they will be non standard and ... do it youself
Then take the vehicle back to MEASURE and REPORT the alignment you have achieved.
I know, hh:mm and $$$, am I going mad?
I’ve only taken my Tundra to the dealer from mile 1 for service. They’ve managed to cause more damage than good. From over torqued lugs that caused them to mushroom, cross threaded the bolts to skid plate, unable to diagnose key fob issues then ran out of warranty. I’ve decided to do the maintenance myself
I feel your pain. I agree, no one has a good work ethic these days.
Alignments are easy. You can get used machines pretty cheap these days to do it yourself
Im going to have to look into that... Cross threaded skid plate bolts screams that they are just using an impact to start bolts... ugh.
As someone who owns an alignment shop, I do not think they are right about the cams. While I have not had issues with the cam stops on Tundras or Tacomas (normally it’s more that the freeze up in the bushing), fords are set similarly, but without cams at all. They simply have a washer on each side and a bolt that goes through a slotted hole on the lower control arms. As long as it is tightened and has washers, it shouldn’t move. I don’t really see a difference is that setup and just removing the cams on a tundra/tacoma. The only issue I have seen is where someone tightened the cam over a cam stop and it worked itself loose over time, but so long as the cams are on flat metal against the frame it shouldn’t cause any issues.
a fat bead of weld behind the cam stop should be enough to get hit by an 18wheeler and not bend
I put a new suspension on my tundra a few years ago and those cam bolts were locked into the bushings so bad i had to cut em. I replaced the lower control arms and got new cam bolts from toyota. Took them to a shop that specializes in alignments and it been perfect ever since.
I have a Toyota Tacoma and a 4x4 Sprinter van. This problem is even worse on my Sprinter because the MB dealer will not touch my suspension because of my mods. Most shops have no clue even how to properly jack-up my van. An example, you cannot jack a Sprinter by the rear differential. The diff cover plate hangs over a bit and a jack will deform this and cause a leak. I've replaced my diff cover so this is not a problem.
I really appreciate you bringing this to light. I’m 62 and have done most of my own automotive work since I was about 14. Due to time constraints, back issues and now being able to afford to pay someone else to do the heavy work I send work out. It really pisses me off when a tech or a shop owner thinks I’m an idiot. I’ve been lied to multiple times over the past few years. DON’T tell me my truck needs a new rack when my truck doesn’t even have a rack and pinion. Also at the current labor rates I expect the job to be done correct the first time. I could on but my thumb is getting tired.
Damn Mike L. why did you sell your shop and retire!!!
Total Chaos cam tab gussets. One of those mods that are done right away when people start messing with suspension. Almost always done with LT kits.
List of things people miss and pay for right away
1) Cam Tab gussets
2) Frame plating the front and rear. Mostly the front during the LT install. Abuse will cause the frame to push inwards
2.5) Shock tower cross brace. Related to above issue. Prevents shock bucket from cracking or pulling apart.
3) UCA gussets
4) TC spindle gussets or a fabbed spindle from Camburg
5)Bracing the rear axle
6) bracing or boxing the rear of frame. Prevents the bed from smashing the cab.
7) forgot as I was typing.
Edit: Core support. Radiator, headlights. Don’t need a full engine cage but those areas should be addressed.
Also once you’ve fixed your cam tabs. You’ll still have an issue with a correct alignment because of the Camburg Uppers. Notorious for having issues. The bigger Uniball size is the cause. I’d swap to Their Heim uppers for more adjustment.
This is a good list... I actually have spindle gussets and axle gussets/trusses sitting on my welding bench right now. Rear frame is already braced. Already have the Camburg Heim Uppers (I have an old set from before they switched the tube uppers away from heims). But always more to do.
@@OutdoorAuto id go to your local 4wp store (off-road store) and see if they have any spindle take offs from a lift kit. Whoever your local Toyota uses for lifts. The newer the better. With your off-roading and age of truck, you might have already twisted/bent your spindles. Thing about these nice forged spindles we have. Won’t snap but can twist. Might get some new ones or barely used for cheap. Best to have a fresh set when you do your gussets. Prevent any issues later.
Absolutely agree, I went to local shops about three years ago, because of the same issue with large corporations. I actually talked to one of the managers, and he gave me the rundown of the corporate two-step, the hierarchy, the low morale, The managers fighting in front of customers. It's a circus.
Go to an owner operator, he's got more skin in the game than somebody punching a time clock. Plus, the pay is so low that these kids are not trained. Things every single time not the fault of the people under the roof, but CEOs focused on the bottom line.
Unfortunately you are right…
Alignment Depends on
Caster
Camber
KPI
Toe In /Toe Out
Bigger Tyres and Long Travel Kits throw out the Wheel Alignment.
Bigger and Heavier Tyres will change camber (Dynamic)
at ride height check the Tie Rod End Angle
any angle from parallel to ground will lead to bump steer and alignment issues
I sympathize with you, as a retired mechanic l also have trouble finding a decent mechanic. Most can’t even tie their own shoes. I have had the same experience with seemingly straight forward repairs that can’t get done. I do what I can but most are too strenuous for me ( l am 75).
i've brought my vehicles to the same shop since i was 17, i'm now 39. it's the 3rd generation of mechanic working on my truck every time, i even went to school with him and his sister who works the front desk. i have never once had to call him back about any issues and he's always been brutally honest about any issues or anything i need to watch. his dad worked on my parents vehicles and the grandfather on my grandparents. i'm in NY and will be moving to NC in a couple years, i will be bringing my vehicle back up for anything major just because i know i can trust him.
We are a small off-road shop in Castle Rock Colorado. We focus on off-road vehicles but work on almost anything. Wheels, tires, suspensions, brakes, accessories, and custom fabrication are the main things we do. We LOVE having our work scrutinized! If you want someone that cares, give us a call. We want to work on your passion! As for this video, sorry you are running into this issue. We find that a good alignment shop is hard to find.
Support the shops that support you. I had this level of partnership until the old man who owned the joint closed up shop. His kids didn't want to get dirt and grease on their hands. I would walk in and pay almost MSRP for a winch or fab parts from them because they hosted trail runs, camping events, and they were the only shop in town who could install a ring and pinion ($150 if you supply parts). I had to learn how to use a crush sleeve after they closed.
This is why I do all work on my vehicles. Literally everything. Remember- all those fancy machines and electronics and whatnot didnt always exsist. Yet the methods exsisted to get the same work done. I do my own alignments. At my old performance shop we did alot of race cars and we would do string alignments on every one of them. Super simple. Effective. Level and a magnetic camber bubble level.
Total Chaos Gusset kit was one of my first mods along with the spindles. Thanks for the clip. Great to know I’m working with the right shop.
clearly I missed this... excited to get it right now.
That's why I Loved my LSK long travel kit: you set your alignment perfectly and weld in the control arm tabs so they never move again.
Dude... LSK makes some COOL stuff... Their Tundra Rear end kit (daily driver linked kit) is a someday goal of mine.
Excellent video. Every car/truck enthusiast is experiencing these issues since Covid. Hard to find good shops! Overall excellent advice and excellent presentation on this topic.
Thank you for this post. I recently decided to work on my own truck and was abhorred and disgusted to find sub par work throughout. Every single maintenance item was done poorly- from my diff drain plug and fill plug being switched to my oil filter being over- torqued, it’s hard to find an honest mechanic. This is where the old adage, knowledge is power, applies!
Topic is on point ... I have a buddy who recently decided to jump from the stock 265's to 285's on his Tacoma requiring a second set of UCA's in order to move the wheel forward enough possibly avoiding the cab mount chop. (that's a whole new topic, who do you want cutting and torching on your rig?) The manufacturer of the new UPC's supplied alignment spec's which a local shop ending in "wab" stated ... "no problem". After picking up his rig he found the specs to be all over the board with the pending excuse of "we are required to align to manufactures specifications". Longer story short the truck now had handling issues and he had to have a warranty alignment done out of state. Finding a shop that is privately owned and that you can trust seems to be the ticket these days.... or do the work yourself.
I finally found a tire shop that gave me a great deal and really good service. They were honest enough to say that they couldn't align my 4Runner the first time I replaced tires because of those bolts on the lower control arm. When I went back in to get suspension work done, they then replaced the lower control arms.
I also found a shop that rebuilds hot rods and off road vehicles. They've been in business for decades in the same place with the same owner and have worked on my full size van tow vehicle and my 4Runner. This shop isn't even local to me, but I'll drive to use them. They rebuilt my rear end and added a Posi unit in the process in the van. I hope I leave this miserable world before they close down.
My son had a supercharged NSX and took his car to a shop over 30 miles away because they specialized in that model. In fact, when my son decided to sell his NSX, that shop made him a great offer so that car became their advertising model.
I feel your challenge. I stopped going to the original stealership, and back to a previous independent shop.
I used to drive 3h30 away for a proper motorcycle "tune", as another example of finding worthy shops
that is a long drive... but I get it.
Coming from a shop owner of 30 plus years, the first thing that comes to mind is the fact you have modified your truck to a point that even the most qualified technicians do not know all the modifications that you have made. They are trained for stock vehicle's. So you go to a national chain or a mom and pop shop, they do not know what they are dealing with, or better yet, how to deal with it. The bent or broken tabs are a sign that you have pushed the limits of the engineering design for an IFS vehicle. No doubt you have spent an enormous amount of money trying to attain the best of both worlds, tough truck with IFS ride quality, but the truth is, every time your vehicle takes a hit, your alignment is knocked out. You are adding weight with bigger tires, more suspension components, and added gear that compounds the issue. So even if the alignment is on when it leaved the shop, the first or second hit will knock it out. So I believe that the owner/modifier can only be the one to blame. You have dramatically changed the engineered design of your vehicle. Most alignment shops will get you the best results based on that, but once again they are doing the best they can under the circumstances. My advice is that you contact the manufacturer or seller of the aftermarket products you purchased and ask them alignment spec's and who they recommend in your area. Oh and coming from a Toyota nut, that has heavily modified his Toyota Tundra. I buy budget orientated tires, that still perform well, just don't last as long for that exact reason.
Look I get the challenges you are dealing with as a Shop owner... BUT, if you cant aligne my vehicle then tell me... dont charge me and send me on my way with a vehicle that clearly is not aligned and will not stay aligned... a little honesty and integrity is all I ask... I cant fix the problem if I don't know it exist.
@@OutdoorAuto How would they know if they've never seen it before? You have to replace/service the heims on those shocks too. If they're worn out, that service tech won't have a clue. If they find it and try to fix it, they will 99% fuck up the shaft, probably have the wrong heim, and won't know how to install it to the right depth+torque. Before you was a honda odyssey that needed a new AC compressor and after you is a pontiac Aztek with a new water pump. You're in there with bypass shocks and a long arm kit. Buyer beware.
Again... someone switched out my actual cam without telling me for one that wasn't even for a Tundra, over half the cam tabs were crushed... they don't need to touch the heims... the need to tell me that the truck can't be aligned... EXACTLY like the good shop I went to did... Hard for a buyer to beware when everyone looks at it and tells me they can do it no problem.
@@OutdoorAuto trust but verify also give the ship that swapped the parts out a chance to make it right ..
@@OutdoorAuto I agree they should have been upfront and honest. My shop contracts with an alignment only shop, that is all they do.
So this is the first thing I did before upgrading any suspension on my Tacoma. Some of my tabs were flat ended up using the marlin crawler cages. It’s a long job, but it’s worth it in the end to hold an alignment.
This is exactly why I do as much as I can myself. The mechanic shop that I do use when it's something I don't have the equipment for, was recommended by a coworker/friend. They were quickly vetted when they could have ripped me off but didn't. Their parking lot is always full and you are going to have to wait a few days to get whatever service done. I always recommend them when people ask and they do.
I agree 100%. That's why I watch channels like yours and appreciate the real life information and education you deliver. It's unfortunate but I have to educate myself as much as possible just to have enough information to have a general idea of why I am taking my vehicle in for repair or even basic service. Off roading and camping is just a hobby for me so there is only so much I can do to "pre-educate" myself.due to my other responsibilities. I have been lied to, cheated, hoodwinked, bamboozled and everything else once too many times and most of it has been in the past 5 years or so. What should be a simple process to have your car repaired has become more stressful and aggravating that it should be. However I find that to be the case for a lot of other trades as well like plumbing, electrical, HVAC, appliance repair etc. It's just not the same world today. Enough ranting but again, thank you so much for the content you put out. It is extremely helpful.
Yeah one thing I am trying to "normalize" is sharing learnings even when they are embarrassing... I ran a tech company for years... Automotive has always been a hobby of mine and it is painfully obvious that even though I continue to learn there is always tons more to know.
I do ALL of my own work in my own garage. What I've learned with vehicles going off road is It's hard to have one perform like it should all the time in both environments. I have an off road truck that I just get the alignment close as I can and if I'm doing a lot of driving on pavement, I go get my in town ride. If I want to hit the off road park hours away, I trailer it.
I'm one if the few young guys that tried to go into the trades. Both the jobs I had in mine, nobody cared about their work and nobody had any idea what the specifications were that we were supposed to be working to. Management always ends up hassling me because I can't keep up with people who are doing half the work that I am. Now I can't even get a job because I've quit too many.
As an automotive technician myself, i can say most do not get payed enough or care enought to point out that problem to a customer. Most go by the philosophy that " if its in the green, its good to go" with no forethought that because the tabs are bent that the alignment will come undone at the first obstacle or washboard roads we would encounter offroad. I am also leery of major chains and dealers and in general whenever i dont want to work on my own truck i take it to the local mom and pop shop who always take their time to do a good job and let me know if there's an issue with anything. Also, i don't offroad a Toyota, but on my truck i tack weld the camber tabs in place, as i find that only has to adjusted after major suspension changes like control arms. So i just tow N' go(as they say) after every few offroad trips when the alignment gets out and i find that speeds up the process
Next time I take mine on a particularly crazy trip... I might have to weld them too.
You made a good point with the alignment issue, I think it applies to any off roader regardless of make and model. We tend to stress our vehicles more than the average driver, I will reiterate a point you made. Learn the basics of every suspension component, you don't need to be an expert like you said, you just need to know enough to spot shoddy work or potential problems. Keep up the good work! Your videos are well worth the time to watch and I tend to learn something new with each one.
This is why I’ve tried to do everything myself on all my cars unless it’s some kind of welding or mounting tires
This has been the story of my life for the last 15 years. Learning how to properly work on my car unveiled many terrible jobs professionals left behind only for me to finally do it correctly. One of my last chapters was learning how to string a toe align and set up caster/camber angles after an alignment tech botched a job I gave him. My confidence in any mechanic was long gone.
Fast forward to today after retiring the old lady bought in '93 -- I continue to wrench on an older 4runner and don't hesistate to do maintenance and upgrades on the new vehicle I bought last year.
When I finally decide to get work done at a shop again because time in the garage is better spent elsewhere, I will scrutinize the returned product to make sure it meets my standards because of trust issues.
And that's the entertaining, but challenging world I live in :)
I've welded my tabs and have had no issues for many miles.. even offer it as a service at the shop I work at
I wish someone would have told me before I smashed all mine… I would have paid good money for a simple fix… now I gotta rebuild mine.
@@OutdoorAuto my shop charges $150 plus an extra $30 in materials to do this. It's cheaper then buying a cam tab gusset kit which requires a lot more welding and grinding time
Loved your story. I've been a shade tree mechanic, and then an electronic-mechanical tech/engineer since about nine years old. I was born with an engineers brain and it drove my parents mad. That said, I don't know everything but I can usually find out or figure it out. Usually. I think the problem you address is the production line mindset where techs have little say in repair times. You get it done quickly or you're hit on your performance reviews and pay scale. Where revenue is king that's just a fact of life. It tends to drive some people nuts whereby they either start their own shop, find another employer, or do something completely different. I imagine this will be an eye opener for some.
Great video. I’ll be 59 this year and I still do all of this type of work myself. I have also tried to outsource to local shops, and all they do is charge money and make a mess out of the alignment. My wife took delivery of her brand new jeep, Rubicon. Prior to heading out west last year, I replaced every single stock suspension component with Clayton Offroad products. I needed this to be right, so my son and I did it ourselves, including the alignment. Sad reality but if you want it done right, learn how to do it and do it yourself.
I called one of those national chain to do an alignment after lifting my Tacoma. The guy who I talked to was completely honest and told me they don't have the right equipment to do an alignment for after market lifts. I took it to a small local shop that has been in business for 90+ years and they did an amazing job.
Man... sorry to hear about your experience. Guess ill be inspecting my tundra more vigorously.
I had a similar experience (this is a long one). Mine is a 2008 V8 Nissan Pathfinder and they have IFS & IRS. Now, I had put the 2" Bilstein 5100's in the front with new V8 coils and new LCA's and opted for the lower adjustable cam bolts for it. I had put new rear coils in it with a Rancho 1-3/4" spacer too. I took it to a regional chain here in NJ. They were told multiple times, because I wanted it to be clear, that there was a 2" strut lift, and a rear spacer lift and that it would need a four wheel alignment. I should have known I was in for a ride after I took it down the street and let go of the steering wheel and it damn near made a 90 degree right turn. I immediately took it back to the shop, and the said that I would have to wait till the next day to have it looked at. I took it back to the chain, and when I left it seemed to go straight and stop straight. But something still didn't feel right. Then one day I noticed... the rear tires were worn really bad on the inside. So, I bit the bullet and took it to OK 4WD here in Jersey on the PA border to get it aligned. They told me that they couldn't do it without replacing the rear suspension and that there was no way in hell that the chain store could have done a rear alignment on it, because all of the bolts were frozen inside of the bushings. They gave me the printout (which the other place never did), and I headed back to the chain store. Of course there was a new manager, and he listened to what I had to say, and looked at the print out too. I did get my money refunded, but I was still out a pair of MT Baja Boss AT's. Their corporate wouldn't pay to replace the tires, just gave me a store credit for not even a third of what they cost. I did take it to another shop to have the rear UCA's and LCA's and spring bucket arm replaced. He did do an alignment on it, showed me the results, and straight up told me that he could only get it close in the rear, and that I would need to take the spacer lift out and drop the IRS subframe to get it to align. I'm now (and should have then) preparing to do a Titan swap in the front, and an Armada swap in the rear.
4Runner owner here, I take a look at these tabs every time I get under the truck. The good news is that laying a weld bead down behind the tab seam gets you 90% of that benefit of aftermarket alignment tabs IF they're not beat flat already. As for trusting the people who work on my stuff, the simple fact is I don't.
Iv worked at dealers where sometimes they had premade alignment sheets printed out and the job never actually got done. This was like 15 years ago, but im sure this type of stuff still happens. Really need to find a trustworthy mechanic.
Pretty sure with a modern laser alignment machine, your tabs don't matter all that much. You don't need the little reference points because it's all figured out with the machine.
I could be wrong.
Thank you! I had no idea as I rely on mechanics to do alignment. As you said we can learn everything and need to rely on others. Finding a good shop/mechanic is critical. I know it’s a good shop when they answer my initial questions, call with additional problems when encountered, and always spend time explaining what was done when I come to pick it up. You right, that good shop is not a big chain nor are they quick to get into. Thanks for the education on alignment and how to spot a less than dedicated shop.
No problem, glad it was helpful.
Put 32s with Icons on my front end. My mechanic redid the alignment 3 times before he let me take it from his shop. His means something to him.
Many auto shops pay their mechanics on a system that encourages speed over quality. So basically if a mechanic can pump out 12 hours worth of work in an 8 hour day, they sometimes get paid for 12 hours of production regardless of quality. I still think it is up to the individual mechanic to determine if the paycheck covers sacrificing their integrity. When you work 40 hours but get paid for 60, it is hard to slow down for some.
My solution for this issue I've learned years ago.
By not taking my truck to anyone and do all the work myself.
I'm surprised that you didn't notice the bolts not moved when you said about rebuilding the front end.
Great discussion about the lever lowering bar of shop skill and accountability. Subscribed.
Thank you for highlighting this. Yup, it's a HUGE problem. It wasn't until I started doing some of my on auto maintenance that I saw all the problems and broken parts caused by "professional mechanics". My sister insists on doing her own maintenance for this reason. Great Video and a good question for the audience...
I feel your pain… lol. I decided to buy a rope alignment kit for the racecar, might use is also on the truck… so difficult to trust people
I like to combine cam tab reinforcements with marlin crawler lca gussets to really reinforce the lca pivots and cam tabs. I take all of my clients vehicles personally to my alignment guy and i get under the lift with him. its a great business relationship and ensures we are aware of any current issues. ive gone through alot of alignment shops in the last few years before i finally found someone that knows what theyre doing
I try to pay attention to everything under the truck when I go under.
I will go under for the problem and then spend a stupid amount of time looking at everything thing else . Looking for rust, loose bolts , wires , air lines …. Any movement on my cam plates from the marks I made after getting it aligned.
Leakes , wet spots ect .. anything and everything that I can look at I look at.
I mean I do a little plotting and planning on up grades or what I need to do.. like get thicker armor under my front diff and some armor on my Gtank .
BUT YOUR point is very very valid.
I forgot to add to my comments your included in who I pay attention to. The posting about overloaded rigs caught my attention and hence my last suspension upgrade to include weighing my gear and trimming down what I carry. Thanks for the advice and great channel.
Excellent video. This is information that needs to be out there and you did a great job delivering it. I learned this lesson in a very similar fashion about 3 years ago. I now only trust 2 shops in my area and prefer to use just one of them for anything that I can't do myself. Both are mom and pop shops. I only let the national chains mount and balance my tires lol.
I have a small bicycle shop and workshop.
Based on the customers return rate assume that we are doing good work.
So my advice is find the shop where you believe to guys and become their regular customer, create relatioship.
If you will, they will provide you with benefit of special short lead times and so on.
The same as we do. For good customer I will stay overtime with no doubts just make him/her happy.
Because I know that he will return an spend much more money with us. He will tell his friends about us and I will have a base of customers who value the good quality work and wish to spend bit more money for such work (compare to big anonymous shops)
I (was) a semi- competitive cyclist / enthusiast. Rode big miles and commuted a good distance to work. As a result, I wore out parts. Our team had two shops as sponsors. Both were good. But I'd always go to my favorite mechanic and bring him / the shop a six pack when I picked up my bike. He actually made a big mistake once. It was a huge safety issue and I could have been badly injured. he forgot to verify that the stem bolts holding the handlebars were tight. During my first ride the next day, I braked hard with my hands on the hoods at a downhill intersection and my handlebars rotated so that the brakes/brifters rotated downward mostly out of reach and I actually ran into the intersection. The mechanic acknowledged the error, noting that they are "supposed" to check torque and tightness on each bolt before sending the bike out..... Nobody is perfect. He's still my favorite cycling wrench....shop is good too. Point being, folks do make mistakes, but I trust the shop and the wrench so I go back and recommend the shop to others. (Although maybe I should always check everything related to "stopping" the bike when it comes home from service - I have all the tools).
@jimrice4699 sure we do, all of us.
I am with you fully.
I have a ritual that I check breaks, handlebars, freeplay in wheelsets, and headsets on my bikes and motorcycle. Nothing sophisticated, just 20 sec check. The same I do in front of customer with his bike during the handover, to minimize the possible issue.
Looks like a poor front end design.
The alignment tab is for the cam to rest on during installation. Under proper torque the bolt crushes the inner sleave of the bushing and the mount together such that no movement should be possible or it's not setup right. If that bolt moved it would mean it's setup incorrectly.
Well.... over half of mine are crushed so either the torque is the issue or the tab serves a purpose and isn't strong enough.
I don't think this guy knows what an alignment is it's totally allingible. You don't move allingments unless they are out of Allingmemt
Who knows why as you said you haven't been paying attention.
Your suspension rides on bushings not bolts. Those tabs ensure that the bolts are correctly aligned before the mount and bushing are crushed together.
The interface between the bushing and it's inner sleave is where the rotation happens.
I’m sure under normal use, with stock wheel offset/backspacing, and suspension height, those cam stops probably hold up quite well. You are totally correct that the industry is losing far too many mechanics with vast knowledge due to age, at this point, you’ll have to take your loss and chock it up to missing the install of the cam tab reinforcing kit. Happy trails!
I feel your pain. Smaller specialty shops are definitely my preference for all of the reasons mentioned. Poor shop reliability has had me doing more and more of my own work with, frankly, better results.
i bought a used alignment kit "Haweye", and you prob need to make custom brackets in house if you go crazy on the lift, the max adjustment is not enough on stock brackets ,, "TIP" load the car like you drive it fully loaded for trip, and do the control
First video iv seen on the channel. I'm looking at buying a 21 or prior tundra so thanks for the head ups on alingments! There was a old man at the CarX in Carpentersville Illinois. He worked on my families cars for years, everything from oil changes, to clutch replacements and two motor swaps on my dads Pathfinder and Xterra. Since he left, iv tried 10 different shops over the past decade. The worst was midas
I find going to shops that set up race vehicles is the best. For instance in the case of alignments go to the shop and ask if they have a guy that sets up race vehicles and does custom alignments. If they don't do custom alignments it's likely the techs will just do what the machine/computer tells them to do regardless if it even makes sense.
This is because they don't really know anything about alignment and can't recognize that what the computer is telling them is wrong.
Alignment computers don't always give the correct stats they need to be calibrated regularly.
A tech that sets up race cars will instantly get a bad name if he screws up and or does bad work because racers know right away if its right or not. Loosing races sucks and wearing out tires because of a bad alignment sucks bad.
You should also understand what alignment stats you want, what they are, how they work and what they mean. It's not very difficult and it's interesting. Take the time and learn about your vehicle.
95% of tire shops are gonna set the toe and send it, which to be fair is usually all that is needed. Most cars have caster and camber that are not made to be as easily adjusted as the toe is. I do my camber and caster at home, and then let the shop do the toe as that's the only part that really needs the accuracy of the alignment rack. Afterwards you get a print out and can see if the work you did was right.
Wow. I’m glad I watched this but sorry for your experience. I’m actually going to inspect these parts on my rig today.
Great video, I’ve felt like this before and you did a good job putting it into words.
I think a lot of us that aren't lifetime pro mechanics feel this way... I still have a lot to learn.
I agree with all of your experiences and recommendations.
I've had factory certified mechanics at multiple dealerships break my vehicle, and it was only on my after work inspection that I found their bad work.
In my local Jeep club of over 1600, we all agree on two local shops, that appointments are always backed up for more than 2 weeks to get in.
Gotta say watching Nate and Max Powell have given me some insight, coupled by my local Toyota Dealership service department. I've used the same outfit that Max uses and between the two its worked out well. I also follow the Taco forum. I also have the dealership do a 2nd check after a 3rd party service such as alignment or if I've done my own work. I'm retired so I know that not everyone has the same resources.
I had this exact issue with my 95 Ford Ranger. I built extended radius arms for the truck, installed replacement levelling springs, and adjustable alignment bushings. A tire shop assured me over the phone they had an experienced guy who knew I-beam Fords, and aftermarket suspension wasn't an issue. Waited in the customer lounge for 3 hours before the tech came out and said, "your frame is bent, we can't align this". They wouldn't let me back in the shop to look (they already dropped my truck in the parking lot for the next customer). I ended up watching a bunch of videos, rigged up lasers, levels, and strings and did it myself in about a day.
Thanks for sharing this valuable information. I'm going under Tundra right now to check.
Someone once told me in life, "Dont expect but inspect".
Good motto for sure
Yes, a local small shop is the best. I've been turning wrenches all my life. Older people,
Old books, manuals, and now TH-cam are your best friends for information.
Good info. Regarding less than professional shops... we all have been there. I do as much as possible on my F250. If a shop does it, I expect them to make errors/break things and to gaff it off for me. I check (when all possible) work for fit and finish. This goes for the dealership or the local shop. Unprofessionalism (good enough) is the rule for a majority. When you find a true professional...tell them about their work and support them.
We had a family owned front end alignment shop here for over 50 years and were rated on of the top shops in the nation and took great care of the customer and they finally decided to call it quits sold it to another company that also is an alignment shop and they shut it down and now all you have is the big box store tire shops that do crappie work. It’s really hard to trust people and shops anymore.
This is a good one. I had my cam tabs reinforced with gussets a year and a half ago that fixed this issue. This is very common on Toyota trucks.
Yeah, that is what I am seeing.. figured it was worth making a video on.
You nailed it, they dont adjust or fill the transmission fluid. I just found that out after going many years. And if you start missing parts well guess what?
You are so right, I do all the work on my Defender (95') BUT also have a good friend who runs a Defender customization shop, he helps me when I need special tools or knowledge but does not do the work, I have to do it, he teaches.. So they are out there but rare and far between.. For my LC200, I have been going to dealer bc I just don't know who to trust and I know I can't trust them but I get the service stamp in my book so to speak..so its worth at least something (and they re mostly reasonable with pricing as well) - another good Vid !! Keep it up !!
This may sound strange to most of us but some of this goes back to our public schools. From an educator (30 years in public and county vo-tech schools) on why some of the reasons for shortages of young mechanics. When public school districts have cuts in their budgets that come down from their state because of budget issues, the first areas they cut are elective classes. Any shop class in a high school and middle school is an elective class, so they would get cut, especially if their numbers of students in a class is down. Other elective classes are: Business, Home Economics, Computers, Music, Band, Art, gym (unless gym classes are required by the state for graduation) and those classes are usually one or two semester classes. So, look at your school district’s elective class offerings. And one more BIG cut to elective classes has to do with states that have yearly State Exams in May or close to the end of a school year. These state tests usually start in elementary schools and go through to graduation from high school. In some states if your son or daughter don’t pass that final test in high school, they won’t get a High School Diploma. If a school doesn’t have results that are good to very good on those state tests, the school district will add additional classes in their schools in the tested areas that they did poorly in, such as and usual in English and Math. So, requirements in those two areas will double. Guess what, some more elective classes will HAVE TO BE CUT again. That happened in my old school district. It may have happened in your public school district. Then there’s your County Vocational Schools. Usually those students take their basic graduation requirements for graduation in the morning and their Vo-Tech program is in the afternoon but they get tested too. I’m not sure what happens if a Vo-Tech student doesn’t pass the State Exams in English/Language Arts and/or in Math. My guess is they may have to take a extra English and/or Math classes, if the aren’t already doing that in their morning classes. And then our school districts all get compared to all of the other public schools in the state. The number of students in a class is always looked at for consolidation of classes to cut expenses. It’s just like a business and I worked there too. Your biggest expense are employees and benefits. If you cut people, you save not only their salary but the cost of their benefits. In a store, if you don’t increase your sales, you can’t have more associates or employees. If your stores sales figures decrease, you cut employees because you can’t afford all of those employees. If your store has high shrinkage or theft percentages … say higher than 3.0% or 3.5%, which could be from shoplifters and/or from employees, as that store becomes more unprofitable and if it doesn’t fix the problem, it could be closed by the home office. That’s happening in a lot of the bigger cities in the country. So, there’s some of the latest on the cutting of shop classes in public schools. Stay safe everyone and keep prepping every day, because it’s the only way, to stay safe. 🙏🏼🇺🇸
Appreciate you making a video on this! I’ve had a nagging pull to the right for a while even after getting several alignments and rotating tires. Gonna check for this next time I’m under my 4runner.
To be fair i feel like most alignment and tire shops especially franchises are filled with neck downs, people who gave up on life, and people with their 1st or 2nd job.
Your last bit of advice on going to a shop that’s available instead of booked is great.
You are right on. We must learn about and take responsibility that it gets done right. Cause it's a train wreck out there. + do what you can yourself. And find a local small shop that cares and charges accordingly for what you cannot do.
Become your own mechanic. Just like my grandpa. 👍🏻
And THAT is part of the reason I drive a Jeep! Not a single alignment tab on the front of my Gladiator. If I really want/need to align it I'll buy some adjustable control arms.
There is a reason why the shop I use has been in business 40 years and run by the same family. They’re honest and the work is always done on time and correctly.
That is awesome and a national treasure.
Your spot on, find small shops with good people. They will care about your biz. Big chains care about profit.
Seems like a piss poor design flaw. Are others like this or just toyota?
Most shops want you in, pay up and get out. Not really caring about what the customer wants or quality of their work.
I asked for hardened valve seats for my engine from a reputable engine shop. It was highly recommended by a circle track racer. Years later when I had more engine work, I was told valve seats were not hardened, resulting in more wear. The shop knew I couldn't check their work and had ripped me off.
I had my exhaust system replaced on my 70 challenger by Johnny Franklin mufflers in Santa Rosa. It was recommended by several acquaintances. I asked for stock hangers to keep the car as original as possible. The shop put in whatever hangers they had handy. Again a supposedly reputable shop. Not.
I've learned most shops are rip offs. Find an independent with a good rep. Be specific and let them know you'll be checking their work.
You need to weld on some cam tab gussets and get a cam eliminator kit, not only will it reinforce those tabs but your alignment will stay true after a trip 👌
I have worked in several custom automotive shops including a Landcruiser Specialty shop in Idaho, what I have learned is exactly what you’re saying. We had our reputation on the line and never felt it necessary to rush a job out the door, quality over everything. I have also found that if you’re working with custom vehicles the best way to go is find someone that specializes in that vehicle or brand. No one can do top tier quality work and know everything about all vehicles. It pays to have a mechanic that knows your vehicle inside and out 👍
OMG I need so much Land Cruiser Help... You still in Idaho?