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Great points. As a boutique amp builder I keep the tube amp as simple as possible and ease of maintenance is a top priority. The digital effects are kept external but the amps do need access ports such as an effects loop and line-out to make interfacing easier.
I LOVE access. Effects loops? 100%. The more routing the better. But amps trying to be modelers is a big mistake in my opinion. It's all marketing. And amp will never a be a modeler and those of us that love amps don't want them to be. What amps are you making?
@@LonelyRocker I came up with an amp based on the Trainwreck, which is essentially a VOX AC 30. I have 15 and 30 Watt versions, with an added gain boost, Effects Loop, Aux Input (for connecting to an MP3 player for adding backing tracks) and spring reverb. These are all-tube designs and have sold only a few to close friends. It is more expensive to build these than I first realized. Hard to see how to make a business out of boutique amps unless you have higher demand and can purchase parts in volume. However, I can proudly say mine are very high-quality builds with ample design safety margins that should last a lifetime. Thanks for asking!
End of life factor aside, having products that are based on digital platforms will inevitably enable companies to get greedy and lock features behind subscription models. Which forces you to keep spending. Whereas a real amp, keeps working no matter what.
Exactly! I didn't get into plugins but I did a video a while ago where I mentioned my Waves plugins. I spent a small fortune on Waves plugins not realizing they wanted an annual "upgrade plan" fee every year. They stopped working when I migrated to my new computer and they won't work again unless I pony up a few hundred backs to activate the newest versions of plugins I already paid for. And most of those have no new features! So I wouldn't actually be paying for anything. How's that for progress!!
@@LonelyRocker ah yes such a great point! I love my tube amps and compared software and hardware modelers to tube amps and the feel of tube amp is better. Natural and powerful. I can use stomp boxes for effects easier too.
I have two Marshall amps. One solid state and the other is tube. I also have a modeler with all my presets in it. One thing that I have noticed is, if I connect the modeler to the solid state amp, then connect it to the tube amp, the tones are very different. Even using the same models on both. The tones coming out of the tube amp sound so much better. I think that even if you are using a modeler like me, you should still invest in a tube amp if you want your presets to sound really good.
I use the hybrid model in my studio and find tube amps work really great with good modelers, especially when recording. High quality effects and good signal routing is a huge thing in a studio....And the amps thrive in that setup....with load boxes of course :)
Johan segeborn did a piece on the minimoog. Now the software sounds good, no doubt, but the harmonics from the analog sounds so much better. The sustain and notes, even on a synth sound very different from old analog to new digital.
@timothymartin2137 Actually, this happens in both tube and solid state amps. You overdrive a tube to distort by increasing the gain on the tubes in the preamp. When you increase the gain to where the tubes start to distort, the sound you get is called even order harmonics. And it sounds very good. If you remove the tubes and replace them with transistors and do the same thing, the sound you get from transistors is called odd order harmonics. This sounds terrible, and that's why its been taking a very long time to get solid state amps to sound good. Its extremely difficult to replicate what a tube does with transistors. I'm sure you've notices that solid state guitar amps tend to come with much higher power ratings than tube amps. Most people assume tube watts are more powerful than SS watts. Its actually the complete opposite. The real reason for the high output on SS amps is because they can't have the transistors being overdrive with gain. The more powerful and clean an amp is, the harder it is to make it distort. That's where digital comes in. Instead of making distortion in the analog domain, it gets taken care of in some type of dsp module before it goes to the analog preamp. In recent years, some manufacturers have figured out a way to "cheat". Instead of trying to get a SS amp to sound like tubes, companies like IK and Kemper sample and capture the sound of real tube amps, and then process that signal. Actual tubes are use to make the samples, and this makes it much easier for designers. When you think about it, if you are using a sampling dsp module, you're still listening to tubes.
@timothymartin2137 I don't think you read my post as I intended. To start with, I wasn't disagreeing with you about the differences in sound you hear. I was just trying to give a better explanation as to why. " No...transistors are an on off thing...they dont distort gradually like tubes..." Some of that is true, and some of it is misapplied, and true under different circumstances. Yes, transistors are switches. They like to be on or off. In most audio applications, however, they're not used that way. Tubes are also called valves. The reason for this, is that's how they work. They can be on, off or anything in between, and work as intended. You can also run transistors the same way as tubes, but there is a price to pay. Any time you run a transistor in between on and off it generates a tremendous amount of hear. That's why solid state amps tend to be big and heavy. They need big heat sinks and overbuilt parts to handle the excess heat generated by running the transistors in between on and off. This has nothing to do with distortion or overdriving the signal with gain. So even though you are not using the transistors as switches, its OK because they are designed to be used in this manner. Going back to your comments on distortion, you can overdrive the input tubes or transistors exactly the same way. When you apply gain to the transistor, it can be done gradually, just like a tube. That's not the problem. The problem is they just don't sound the same as tubes when overdriven. That's where even and odd order harmonics come into play. While you are looking to overdrive the input tubes on a tube preamp, you don't necessarily want to do the same thing on a solid state preamp, but you could. It just won't yield the same results sonically. Above, I said you may be misapplying some of the concepts you referenced. I don't have enough information to be certain, but I'm pretty sure I know what you were talking about. Any time someone brings up transistors are switches, they're almost always talking about class D amps. A class D amp works by using transistors the way they were meant to be used. Instead of running the output transistors in between on and off, a class D amp taps off the input signal, and uses it to turn the output transistors on and off really fast, instead of running them in between. The big advantage is they generate almost no heat. That's how these tiny amps can generate a lot of power with making virtually no heat. One common misconception with class D amps is that they are digital. They're not. If I remember correctly, the first class D amp came out in the mid 1950's. As always, marketing departments will act on just about anything they can dream up. The sound you hear on a class D amp is analog from input to output. Its never digital. What really happens is, on some amps, when the input signal is tapped to run the transistors, it gets converted to digital first. But the digital signal is only used to switch the transistors. It has nothing to do with the signal path. And since there is digital tech being use in the amp, it gives the marketing department just enough to make the claim that the amp is digital. The one last thing I wanted to mention, is how the amps are sampled, or modeled. You're correct when you say you are working with solid state modelers, and they can be used to model both tube and SS gear. My point was, with some products, like Kemper, tube amps are recorded, and that's what the modeler uses to reconstruct the sound of the amp. Recording a tube amp is much easier than trying to build the sound from scratch. Sorry if there was anything I said that was confusing. Hopefully I was able to make a better point in this post.
I worked in a guitar store for several years and played all of the well known (tube and modeling) amps. To this day, no modeling Amp can 100% replace the feel and tone you get from a (well designed) tube amp. The feel is different. The modeling stuff came a long way, but there is still a difference. Same thing with Studio/recording gear. You can`t replicate the sound of analog gear with plugins. Maybe 85-90%, but the depth and feel of analog gear is not replaceable. Get a well designed tube amp and be happy for the next 50 years.
@@LonelyRockerThe manufacturers have streamlined their tube choices...those old ampegs that used "hi fi" tubes sound incredible like no other brand, both warm and clear...it's a shame to think they'll end up in landfills just because those tubes no longer exist, while the stuff that gets made going forward all sounds vaguely similar
My problem is that a very important fraction of my sound comes from the speakers doing their thing at the db level they were designed to do it at. The other problem is that I've never been able to program the fractal or whatever to physically react like 4 carefully biased gain stages in conjunction with a 2204's PI. The end result is an old HD500X into a Furman PQ4 into a JC120 into 2 cabs for digital or my 2204 into an MF cab for real sound
I love my tube amp. My most expensive piece of gear and it sounds otherworldly. Unfortunately, these days I only use it for fun. Nothing beats playing in front of one. For songwriting and recording though it's only a Helix VST for me now. Why? It always sounds the same between sessions. I no longer have to worry about mics and placement. It cuts the workflow in half. I can find a sound after-the-fact with no hassle at all if I need to. But still, nothing beats standing in front of a good tube amp and cab. I'll always have it to fall back on if I need to. Good video
@@xxczerxxAn amplifier based on thermo-ionic valves aka vacuum tube preamp and power amps. This technology is superior to solid state in the the manner it distorts, in even number harmonics vs solid state which distorts in harsher odd number harmonics.
Modeling amps be it guitar or digital pipe organ sampled off the real organ, digital pianos, and of course the digital orchestral instruments, some are close some are not so close, and all are “no cigar.” Some sorta mimic, some are caricatures, most people with a good ear live can tell the difference.
It has always been about the experience. I don't think the listener has ever cared about the gear unless the listener is a musician. They mostly care if the volume is right and if they can clearly hear the vocal part and any key hooks.
@@LonelyRocker Thanks for calling me out, haha! Indeed I over-generalized. It is easy to become cynical these days considering how much the live music scene has changed over my lifetime (first live gig in the 90s). The non-musician members of the audience may not know gear specs, but most still have opinions about tone, though they might articulate their opinions in a different manner than the musicians in the crowd. I also overlooked the listener that is not a musician yet but later becomes one because they love the sound of a particular musician.
I recently added my vintage Axe-FX Ultra (a 16-ish year old device) to my rack in my studio and am enjoying playing through it these days... Ahh, those vintage digital tones! 😆
I run A/B comparisons with a Radial A/B/Y pedal. Axe/Fx setups are not that far off the tube mark. I play and enjoy both. I use a Mesa Boogie 50/50 for amping AxeFx, and old rack pieces that still have over-the-top tones like Rocktron VooDu Valve which has 1 12ax7 tube, Chameleon, and others. FUN in the first degree is the point and the end result! Ear protection is still important at home too!
For recording there are true advantages to modelers that tube amps can't really compete with. But if you want the real feel, fun and joy of playing guitar then only a good tube amp and cab will give you that! Once you get use to play with an amp and cab at good enough volume then you know the difference! 🤘
From what ive gathered its more of a concern with tube combos. Because with combos you have the tubes underneath the board cooking it the entire time its on and running hot. When the tubes are above the board all that heat is allowed to escape upwards, not into the pcb
The big problem is that the components are soldered to the PCB using a flow soldering technique, so the component legs are not up to temperature so the joint is flawed to begin with. To re flow the joints when they fail, you have to remove the whole circuit board, which obviously adds to the labour cost to the customer. The other thing guaranteed to give an amp tech a bad day is the practice of glueing the components to the board, it's always a worry getting them out. A hand built amp can also use whatever quality of tone capacitors you like, almost always better than a mass produced PCB amp.
How would you know if its wired this way? Been doing some research and as far as I can see, most tube amps have QC issues so I'm left with nothing to choose from. 🤷♂️
I love VST for creating music, riff etc..Mock up versions pretty much,But, if i stay in that zone for a long time and i start playing on Tube Amp-oh boy, all of the sudden i dont know how to play :) Great one Dan!
Thanks! I wonder if my point was missed in this video. My concern is tube amps with digital components and the risk they pose on longevity for the amps.
Im sure there would be a tons of debates and rethinking as digital merging with analog word so progressively ..As a musician, I was kinda disappointed to see Metallica switching but thats not what fans care about , i guess@@LonelyRocker
@alekp6822 The amp world is not as certain as it once was. But I can tell you, any amp I buy going forward will ONLY be analogue. I love my digital gear for what it is but I’m keeping that separate. 😎
Used 6505+ for classic rock cover band for years with good results. Using a combo hybrid amp now, line 6 bogner valve. For smaller venues just a line 6 pod go, with a small powered speaker. Did have my first pod go fail after 18 months, but got a free replacement!
Interesting to hear you say that. As someone who started playing circa 1994, we truly didn't know what tube amps were. Amps were amps. We knew Peavey, Marshall, Vox. My friends dad had an old jazz tube amp. We hated it. It couldn't do distortion. The stuff at SamAsh and GC (when it opened) were all solid state (at least what we saw and could afford). The only pedals were Boss, a few from MXR, Dunlop wahs, Morley volume and some odds and ends. No one talked about "tone" like we do today. Why? Simply because there was no near-billion dollar marketing apparatus at work, as exists today. We turned on the amp and it sounded good. The neighbors hated it. Good enough for us. Not once did any of the few players in my circle even think about tone caps or treble bleeds. We just wanted to learn GnR, Nirvana, Metallica and Green Day songs. Even the magazines didn't discuss tone as they do today. Now it's all you hear. Telling kids who don't know intervals they need to "perfect their tone" is a joke. Thievery. Hey - tube amps are great. Fractal is better. So much easier and you can carry your entire rig in one trip. I will never go back to analog. Even for listening purposes. Hi-Res isn't as rich as analog but it's so close the human ear can't possibly tell the difference. The benefit of a tube amp, that almost-imperceptible squish you FEEL and the subtle coloring that comes along with tubes (aka: "warmth") no matter where you use them are only detectable at HIGH VOLUME. Truthfully, 95% of us will never get to play at such necessary volumes to experience actual high voltage sag in person or feel that "squish" for real. _Truthfully, the Fractal is 93 - 96% of the way there, and under 110dB, no one will detect the difference._ Even if you do stadium gigs, the FoH doesn't want volume. They want DI and they should. You might use stage volume, but it isn't necessary. Most bands are doing IEMs, and have been for decades. Unless you're the Beatles playing Shea Stadium with no PA, there is no need for high wattage amps, tubes, or any of that tone voodoo. The whole industry needs to shift to quieter amps. Tube distortion and "squish" without volume over 100dB or an Ox Box, etc. Built in attenuation and circuits clever enough to push tube distortion in a whisper bedroom setting. THAT is the market.
A lot of people talk about "volume" and how a good amp has to be loud to sound good. That is also something I never thought about back in the 90s when I was gigging and it's not something I always think about now. Yes, amps do magical things when pushed but they have a volume knob for a reason. And with load boxes you can dime them to get all of that juicy saturation and harmonics while enjoying it at bedroom volumes. I have modelling gear too and love it but I would never sell real amps short just because of volume...
I had an AX8 for 4+ years, sold it to my bassist and grabbed an FM9 turbo. Many gigs are direct with that…..but sometimes, I do bring out my ‘87 2204 (with a tube loop) and my small rack. Love the tubes 😍 when I can use them….
After being away from any direct involvement with music for over 5 years, I jumped back into it in early '19. To my amazement, gear like the Boss Katana mkii line and the PRS MT15 were just hitting the scene. I did the Katana thing right away, and even bought a second one to link in stereo. But I still wanted a tube amp for my lead tones. I ended up finding a 2018 built MT15 with the 6L6 tubes in the power amp section of it. It also has the revised wiring harness to keep it quiet. I feel like between these 2 amps there's really not much I can't do? My biggest issue with the majority of the guitar amps coming out in the last couple years, is the ridiculous amount of features that's inevitably built into them? Do modern guitarists really want or need all the bells and whistles? I just wanna plug in and play. I don't wanna have to download files or buy expensive cables to link to other devices. I just wanna rock! Sometimes I think all these complex rigs will be landfill sooner than later. And everyone will go back to simple rigs again. That's my hope. I certainly don't need to spend over $1000 U.S. to have fun. Speaker cabs? That's a whole nother scam going on.
@@LonelyRocker Yeah, I mean if it's doing what you want, who cares how? Whatevers clever. I like the simpler the better. How can you keep track of all the settings on super complex control layouts? You'd almost have to take pictures for reference. When I heard the Boss Katana saved settings, I was sold. It's very easy to use.
Very true... they are also multiple products that are dependent on a computer or a mobile device. The lifecyle of those are going to be even shorter... The day the OS of the computer evolves, the app running the device might not follow and you are basically stuck...
GREAT POINT! I'm surprised I didn't mention that because I've had concerns about that too. I've dabbled in some of that stuff but now that I have standalone modelers here my amp purchases will be straight analogue with no unnecessary digital components...and I'm sticking to that!
I have been burned with my Apogee Gio, this is a footswitch control surface. Apogee just said, you know, Apple did change the protocol so the Gio is no longer supported with MacOS version x or later. Instead of investing some time fixing the firmware.
I got six solid-state amps and no tube and I blew up a solid state and believe it or not my Reverb delay pedal I don’t know what happened to it but it went out and it took out an amp with it DV, Mark 60
If you want the tube sound, you have to deal with the price and the weight etc. If you want the convenience of a modeler, you have to accept getting only 80-90% there. But some situations make the decision for you. I play small venues and blues jams. Using a modeler with IEM and going through the PA is not an option. I have a friend who uses a helix with a small power amp and a cab. That works but it’s not anymore convenient except for the weight. If you are fortunate enough to play where all you need is your fx board and guitar, I get it. I have a pod go I use for silent practice (with my iPad) and it is great. For those of you using a digital board and no amp, how do you get the amp to “talk back” with controlled feedback? And do any of you go to an open mic/jam? How does that work? Thanks for the video 👍
My pleasure! I get there are different tools for different scenarios. And Digital gear offers the conveniences amps could never offer. I have both here. My main point was the longer term value of the gear. And digital gear will age out. But I get it that many venues today don't even want the loud amps there...boy times have changed....
Is there others out there that can still just hear(feel) that tube sound? It to me still has that feel , it's a warm, honking, hollow but full , resonating in your body type blanket of goodness , like say in the No More Tears solo................. How say you out there? Am I off my rocker ? Stubborn? Too old? lol
You are bang on. The one thing modelers can never emulate is that feeling of trying to tame an amp and losing....Having fear and respect for a real amp is a thing and it makes a difference!
Yes, "feel" and the way a tube amp pushes air can't be faked. My theory is that younger players who are raised on modelers won't relate or understand this. My theory is "feel" in general is becoming a lost art in playing. There are countless young virtuosos, including girls and pre-teens all over TH-cam who can mimic players like Yngwie without breaking a sweat. I often wonder if it's because younger generations are raised on complex video games and approach the guitar in a more practical way, as if it's a series of cheat codes lol. That being said, I'm seeing less and less "feel". You can simulate technique but not feel. Even bends are becoming things of the past.
@@Darth.ShredderYounger players aren't used to the sound of actual amps anymore. I remember seeing one of the amp sim companies commenting about how they got reports about a specific rectifier amp sim of theirs being broken because younger players were not used to the sound of loose amps.
My friends and I who started playing in the 90s, the guitarists are all still using their first decent valve amp. I've friends who play Fenders, Peaveys, Marshalls, even Yamaha oddballs. It used to be you got a good amp, learned how to get the kinds of tones you liked from it, and you were set for life. As a bass player, I played through an old Trace Elliott combo, then moved to a Hartke because it had wheels and more power. I don't know if having access to so many different sounds, so early on, would just be a distraction to a new player now. I like amps, since picking up the guitar a decade ago I got a 1970s 50w master volume. It's far too loud and I love it.
Eh it’s easy to get distracted by the options but it’s also easy to just make a twin reverb preset and call it a day 😂 nice for headphone users as well
The new Revv G50 looks pretty sweet! I’ve owned lots of great tube amps over the years. Eventually sold them all off and went modeler several years ago. From a gigging perspective it’s hard to beat the convenience.
I love Revv gear. Yes, the other side of the argument is cost savings and convenience. If you make money using a modeler it will more than pay for itself in convenience over time. So replacing it when the next great one is released is just the cost of doing business...
I've taken the hybrid approach, digital modeling pedals into the effects return of a tube amp. Mostly for more variety because my amps only have 2 channels. And honestly, your audience won't know the difference in a mix.
I am just a 'weekend warrior' so my choices in amplification are different than that of a professional. The venues that I play tend to be small and are getting smaller and fewer.I love my Marshall and pedal board and that is really my preferred sound but in many cases it is just too loud to use in smaller venues. A tube amp sounds the best when you are 'pushing' the output tubes. That is the sound of classic rock. I need something that can replicate that sound and a lower volume. Today I am using my Boss Katana MKII 50 for the most part. It is lightweight and easy to carry plus I can get a great tone at a lower volume. If I play and outdoor gig I can always take out my Marshall. I am seriously thinking of getting a Boss GX100 which can be run directly through the front of house. This would be a very versatile rig that allows for a multitude of amp models and effects and is cheap enough that if it were to get damaged or stolen it could be replaced.
The good thing is we have choices now to suit more players. I have embraced digital products too and love what they offer. I just think we need to be realistic. Amp modelers might not last for every but they pay us back in convenience. I have a full video on the gX100 on my channel..check it out!
You bring up great points. I am almost 49. I have been getting by with cheap modelers but it's time to get a real tube amp. I am borrowing a dsl100h. I will never play a modeler again. Now the question is, DSL20HR or spend a lot more and get point to point marshall. Like you mentioned, it should last a life time..
I just think guitar players are missing out if they don't experience the guitar to amp experience. I love digital products. they add so much capability to my studio but as you've noted a great amp is for life. As far as what to get...well that's between you and yours but I hope you grab an awesome one!
I would suggest getting an off brand that does Marshall like overdrive. In Canada you can get a used Traynor ycs50 for 500. It is PCB but a really amazing amp. Electro Harmonix reissued the mig 50 for half the price of any Marshall jcm800 new or used. But if name brand is important, just get the Marshall.
Really good points in this. I sold all my amps recently and bought a Helix product and its AWESOME! But its not “Tangible”. I dont want digi in my Tube amp either. To clarify: I do like the direct jack in some new amps but I dont want modeling in a Diezel or anything. I WILL be purchasing a Tube amp or two again soon.
Glad you enjoyed this. A built in DI does come in handy and you can still use the speaker out separately anyways. I have DIs built into 3 of my amps but I prefer to use an external one anyways. Hope you grab a great amp soon!
I am 74, grew up in tube world, studied electronics 2 years in high school, played guitar since 9 years old, studied music in college, was first Peavey/Ampeg/Marshall/Fender factory authorized service center for four years in South Florida. What you said is true. I coudl fill pages of talk and advice. Tube amps have been reduced in power except a few. Power supply capacitors can go bad over time, tubes become microphonic from being banged around with careless moving. Tube amps have tone and bottom end. Digital can be subject to voltage surges, most digital amps have little to no bottom end unless you are a metal player which usually want roaring bottom end, some digital amps have bottom end. The boutique amps now with 5-20 watts are overpriced because they are made in limited quantities, have to be miked. Having a mllion sounds in a digital amp with no bottom end is moronic and there are plenty because they are selling sounds not real tone. Yes, the markets are brutal, if you want to stay in business you have to downsize and change. Most amps are made in China or countries where labor is cheaper for corporate reasons. Todays factory workforce is not what it was in the 50', 60', 70's. Good luthiers are hard to find, it requires creative talent, tedious stick to it work ethics, dedication. They have to get paid. Countries with low labor can create knockoffs of American products and many are high grade for lower prices than American companies can market for given their high overhead. Years ago 60's & 70's the demand was hogh for big amps, 2x12's 4x12's double stacks, etc. Prices were low but musicians went crazy along with studio engineers in recording to create different sounds before the pedal craze and digital modeling hit markets. The cost of building tube amps is very high. Lower volume means higher prices for parts, assembly labor, advertising, insurance, keeping operating capital high enough to pay employees and costs and when markets dip or competition gets higher, you want to have enough to keep the lights on. I remember going to a music store in the early 60's, seeing a Les Paul Custom white SG body with 3 pickups. They were about $650.00. Builds on rhe guitars were near as perfect as humanly possible, low action, quality builds, lifetime guitars. Costs were low, skill was high, you got a lot for rhe money. Today, that same guitar may be $6,500 to $7,500 or more because that is what it costs today to get the same quality. I always wanted an L5C. It takes a master luthier 1 year to make that guitar. He has to get paid, A/C is on, insurance, prestocked woods in dryer rooms, assembly line costs and maintenance, paint equipment and painters, wiring crews, fret installers, engineers, planners, parts aquisition people, ,etc. Ir costs money. The L5C today is probably around $14,500 guessing. You lose money on that guitar to make it when you subtract costs and losses, equipment maintenance, overhead, etc, it all is expensive. I am amazed today that many of the old American names are still in existance. Wirhout really smart business minded operators, planners, marketers, designers able to woek as a team the ship can sink quickly and I have seen many go by the wayside. They made good products but something was missing in the formula of operations and with radical market and sales swings, things go south quickly. Fender, Gibson, Rickenbacher, are a few of the most copied guitars. Running a factory is difficult and competion, market swings and knowing when to market new products can be a nightmare. Investing in making, advertising, stocking a million retail stores, shipping costs with damaged in shipping always a headache- if the market changes and the product doesn't sell- it can be a hard hit to the company's bottom line and image. Today cosmetics is a big seller. Competion has lots of cosmetics and eye candy. Original designs such as Fender and Gibson have to pay a lot to attorneys that fight knockoff challenges constantly or lose their market. It requires a lot of work to make and sell good instruments. Maintaining consistent quality is also difficult and costly. Many tubes are being substituted today and the amps sound can be affected. I have a Fender Super Twin I bought new in the 70's. The two preamp tubes were 7025's and had higher gain. They are hard to find and using 12AX7's will work but there is a difference in sound and gain. Tubes are costly to manufacture, mica insulators are getting expensive and harder to get and purchase. Originally, for many years Magnavox built most of the tubes in the US in their Greenville, Tennessee plant. They had 23 acres under one roof. They stamped RCA, Fender, Sylvania, GE, etc. on the tubes and shipped them to the manufacturers. Ampeg had two 600 foot long assembly lines at that facility. One line was cabinets the other line built and wired amps. By the late 1970's, Ampeg started building hybrid amps and got a lot of faulty components in the preamp sections and amps were shutting down and had to have warranty replacements of bad components. It hurt their sales. SVT bass amps were amazing at 300 real watts. V4 guitar amps were good but again had some faulty circuit problems. Fender amps were always reliable and many players loved them. Being upside down, many Fender amps over time developed spitting resistors from heat cycles but could be found and changed. It is hard to say how long tube amps will live but costs keep going up. I was selling new 6L6 tubes for $5.50 in the mid to late 70's, now they are $25 to $30 and climbing. Three to 5 years from now they could double in price do to several factors. They were amazing creations but may see obsolescence becaue of costs and reduced parts availability. Tungsten filaments, mica and internal element quality can vary. Shorted output tubes can be death for a tube amp. Blown power and output transformers. I had seen and repaired SVT bass amps that went into meltdown and start on fire. Those amps were running about 650VDC on the plates and when a short from wornout output tubes happened the lights could be dimming. They had serious power and power supplies. Well, I could talk for hours but I will stop now and thanks for the good article. These are things young players need to think about as parts obsolescence and having an amp that doesn't work and no more parts. Same with car electronics, manufacturers abandon production after a few years and you are stuck with no spare parts from penny pinching lean manufacturing techniques. They only have parts for what was on the assembly line. Sad but true.
Thank you so much for sharing your story. I enjoyed reading that. Manufacturing is a tough, risky business and very exposed to external factors. That is why innovation is important. Not everything can be as it was and on some level we have to be open to embrace change. I hope there is a place for amps for the foreseeable future. Things can be cyclical but maybe the taste for real amps will grow again as more players discover guitar because of easily accessible tech. We can hope!!
1st and most important ," keep it simple". A player will spend too much precious time trying to find a sound they can use instead of actually using this time to practice and listen to music. Dropping/ travelling and wiring the modellers will cause them to malfunction, the player ends up depending on a modeller to generate a "unique" effect and when they go wrong you will end up throwing them out of the window. I did like a small combo that Fender experimented with a "Super-Champ x2 , a valve amp and programable digital pre-amp modeller, it took me 2 years to get it to sound usable( ( New speaker, hours of tweeking) now I can't do without this little "Hybrid" which I almost sold. Stick to basic designs for an amp and get pedals which at-least are replaceable and the feel a good valve amp gives the player really is impossible to emulate digitally, it's just too special . These modellers are useful but in essence they are toys to have fun with. I suppose if you have never experienced even a 5 watt valve amp played clean and with a biit of volume you probably would'nt know why they still build valves. Better a small 15watt 10" portable combo with a modest pedal board will always beat any modeller just for the feel.
Interesting observations and you are spot on in regards to the life cycle of digital products. I think we have a lot more options. The sweet spot for home studios I think is guitar->pedal board/effects unit->tube amp->cab & mikes simulator device->computer (daw)
All of my analog stuff from the 80s and early 90s still works, and in most cases, has increased in value. That said, these days I mostly just use my little Katana 50 and a laptop because they are so convenient. Unfortunately, both the Katana amp and the laptop PC are basically disposable items these days and retain almost no value.
Thanks for making this video. I started out with a Line6 Pod as a kid, then much later got a Kemper. I only just finally got a tube amp, and the VHX actually really appealed to me with its built-in effects, cab emulation, cabless operation capability, and ability to save settings while still being a 'for-realsies' tube pre and power amp. Since I came *from* the modeling world for all my playing history, the digital features felt more comforting to me, and I felt like I could probably be more successful recording with it than something like your JCM 900. While I LOVE my VHX, I think it would have been maybe a better idea to go with a Herbert and a load box (for a similar total price!). Then I could explore other tube amp options in the future without buying the same digital capabilities over and over again.
My pleasure. The POD was also my first digital :amp" though I already had my Marshall then. I'm curious about the VHX. Is the digital part of the amp easily bypassed? I'm sure if it ever wen wrong the rest of the amp would function as a normal amp but I'm curious about that part.
Sure, you can just not put effects on it when you use it. I don't know if there's a signal path it always goes through that would be broken if the digital board went bad, but from what I can tell that part is discrete and could be replaced. However, if they ended up not making that part anymore you'd be outta luck. So ultimately, it might be better to get something more purely analog and use a separate digital unit for the maximum flexibility and future proofing. That said - I'd be willing to bet the smaller board mounted components will long outlast the big giant caps and stuff, let alone the tubes. I've decided to not worry about it and just make the best music I can with it :)
I can certainly agree with the voiced concerns about all the hybrid digital-tube amps. I keep the two almost entirely separate. All my amps are hand-wired and fairly simple circuits. I leave the digital magic to pedals (relatively cheap and easy to sell) and computers (constantly replacing/upgrading anyways for all aspects of their use, not just for music).
Thanks =) Great topic and video, BTW! One hybrid approach I enjoy is combining one or more hand-wired tube preamps with power amp modeling (with real cab or with speaker sim/IR). That way I reduce the weight and expenses of the tube amp power section, and I am in the ballpark on tone and feel. I don't play live anymore, but it has been fun around the house. The downside, of course is the inability to save settings for quick recall. Even with amp sims, I use a Sarno Revelation as my guitar DI instead of my interface Hi-Z input. @@LonelyRocker
I used digital technology in the 90's (Peavey Tubefex). By 2004 the two units I have malfunctioned (within the wafer layers(pre-CPU era)) so now I have 2 boat anchor rackmounts. Gone to Tube amps and pedals from then on, lesson learnt.
I love my tube amps. But I also enjoy my Helix which I use into tube power, used as a preamp into real cabs. Which can sound and feel really good. I think there can be a happy medium.
100%. I do that in my studio with real amps, fractal and Helix. But I know my amps will be here well past these modelers...maybe even longer than me! :)
Stuff like tonex, Kemper profile players will need external fx, midi control ect.. add that all up, you could buy a great amp that keeps its value much better. One of the best options is to use modelers for fx and a real tube amp. Just my opinion.
1. I like to stand when playing. There is too much time spent sitting with digital, a lot of that time spent learning. 2. I think of tube amps like I think of cars. New ones are better in many ways, but old ones generate more love. I enjoy playing a tube amp while standing. I hate sitting in front of a computer monitor or studying a manual. Repair and modification are other tube advantages. I play at home, so carrying a tube amp is not a problem, for me. I have a Splawn Quick Rod 50 arriving any day now, to go with my six others. I wouldn't mind fiddling with a Fractal, though (emphasis on fiddling).
This is one of the reasons I bought a Helix. I had a Digitech 2112 and when the screen went dead after 20 years, they didn’t make components anymore. I figured that if I was gonna stay in the digital world, it would behoove me to buy a product from a company with some staying power. Line 6 has been around since the 90’s and what’s more is that they’re now owned by Yamaha, which of course is gigantic and well established. I wound up wearing out the joystick on my Helix because I was a dumbass and didn’t use HX edit. I had to get it fixed. Luckily, because of the ubiquity of Yamaha repair shops, it wasn’t super difficult to get it done. It sounds great and doesn’t everything I need a rig to do.
Line 6 products have shown to be quite resilient and having the network Yamaha has been able to provide certainly helped to build longevity for their products. There are so many of those products out there I think it will be in Yamaha's best interest to continue supporting those products even when they introduce new ones...especially their flagship products like the Helix...
Lot of dinosaurs here, I'm one too, so go easy on the flames. But I'm also a hybrid, I have always had my first Fender Princeton that everyone laughed at back in the day, "get a stack" was the mantra. Now they're gold. But I also bought a Roland JC-120 for loud projection of my pedals, SG, etc. It's super clean and pushed pedals very consistently. I also have a 100W Peavey rig that's great fun, but less consistent, I've had tubes go bad and speakers. The Roland just works, never changes. Bright and clear. But I'm a folkadelic rhythm and prog player mainly and maybe if i were a shredder I would lean harder on tubes. But my Roland has never needed to visit the shop. My Fender and Peavey both have several times. Regarding the planned obscelescence of the digital devices, dead on Sir. Plugins, PCs, software anything is outdated as soon as it's installed. Every time you boot you risk entering update hell and wasting hours just getting things working. With fixed hardware, things are much better. But. If it has any custom chips in it, we're at the mercy of those firms too. I own ableton and FL Studio, but I'm done with the trendy virtual stuff. I like the Spark, got one and they're previous PG amp head virtual amp, works great, but no longer supported. $500 new, now with maybe half? What's the point? The big stacks are great fun to play, but not to lug around. And they're kind of two or three truck ponies. If you're a working cover band, like most semi-pro musicians, you usually need something like a Katana that can play a lot of styles, or a modeler or multi-fx into the mixer. It's just too much work liugging big amps around for low paying gigs. The public doesn't care what you play.
The big win for all of this is choice. Digital gear is easier to acquire and can satisfy needs across a wider user base but doesn't retain it's value. If you still want a tube amp, if you acquire a well built one you can enjoy it for a long time. And in my case, a hybrid solution serves me very well for recording. Good times to be a guitarist.
Great discussion, and I’m with you. I don’t like this new hybridization trend of combining digital tech with tube amps. Mainly from a maintenance perspective. I want to keep my tube amps simple, so the repairs and maintenance are less expensive. 😆
I'm with you. In fact after all this I think I've decided to move one of my hybrid amps while it's still in great condition and get something more pure...maybe a new amp on the channel soon!! :)
Great take. I'm all digital currently with a Boss Katana and a Pod Go. I've been looking at tube amps but would want all the convenience of my digital stuff (line out with cab/mic emulation). After seeing this I think I'll steer away from any one tube amp that does it all. Modular all the way. Get a separate load box. Get a separate DI solution, etc
That's the way to go. And be weary of budget tube amps that are made with cheap PCBs. I combine real amps, load boxes and modelers in my studio with AMAZING results. But the tube amp you decide to get should be special and it will be a joy for many years to come...
Metallica recently stated in an article I read that 50% of the time they use their digital Marshall amps at live concerts. I've heard and played both tube and digital. I currently have a 100watt Marshall ½ Stack, 4 12's that's digital and kicks ass! I can play at 100% power for hours without blowing amp. And the sound with or without my floor monitor is flipping insanely awesome. It's truly up to the player.
Earned a sub simply because this is such an important topic that needs to be covered, and I would argue the economics of this industry need to be spoken about to musicians. There's a reason this is called the music "business". Companies in this industry, especially established behemoths, have a mandate to sell product, not musical products. Our culture in North America has somehow accepted planned obsolescence as just the way things are, and many youtubers are aware of the issues you've discussed, and *continue to make money off of their audiences without raising these concerns*. It may be impolite, but considering the money at the stake + the ease at which people are taken advantage of, this needs to be combated. Additionally, disposable gear is so unbelievably damaging to the environment, that if you consider yourself someone even remotely concerned about the planet we live on, an easier-to-service product with a long shelf life, built to last, is even more important. Of course tubes break, but you just need to replace the tube, not the whole amplifier. Support your local builder if you can. Save up a few extra bucks and get something that'll last you a life time. Carr, Pizzolato, TopHat, Hi-Tone, Germino etc. all make tremendous product made to last. Thank you for the service to the musical community. Refreshing to hear real issues discussed in the Geartube universe
Thanks so much and thanks for sharing your thoughts. I really felt I had to say something. An amp has always been a special acquisition and I hate seeing them cheapened because modern tech desires “demand” it. It’s a mistake that will come back to haunt people in the future. I’ve embraced modelers for what they do but my amps are staying pure!
I have had (and still do) tube amps throughout the years. Drive pedals have gotten so good now that I've gone to building pedal boards (15 of them now) based around mini pedal board mounted amps. I have five Moorer Baby Bomb 30s, a JOYO Bluejay, a TC Electronic BAM200, and a Seymour Duncan Power Stage 170. I'd challenge anyone to blind A/B sound comparison challenge anytime.
It is truly a great time to be a guitar player. So many great options. I just think digital products should be digital and analog should be analog. No hybrids!
I personally think it depends on how critical the digital component is to the functionality of the tube amp as a whole. For instance, if the cab simulated outputs of the Revv amp went out, you could still use the power amp output and it pretty much becomes your conventional tube amp. The diezel amp is concerning, because you have a screen that’s needed to navigate the amp controls. Lately I’ve been realizing that if you want to make investments in audio equipment that will last a long time and won’t depreciate in value, analog is the way to go.
I'm with you 100%. I actually use the speaker out of my REVV into a Suhr Reactive Load. I don't use the internal load anymore. Revv is a great brand and I do believe the DI component is independant of the amp circuit. But my HK is all tech and PCBs. I may need to think about flipping that one now while it's still in great shape ;)
I'll preface my opinion with. being of the age when I could have purchased used kalamazoo Gibsons for $50 LP Jr, $75-100 SG, LP for 125-250 depending on the model, etc. Tube amps had the maintenance issues, were generally heavier but the tone was set the standard. now affordable tube amps are less repair friendly with printed boards unless you can afford hand wired, though repairable and if your inclined you can learn to do may repairs. the plethora of effects is amazing as there are more distortion pedals available now than practically the total from all manufacturers put together in the early '80's. I prefer an amp that will last, has the benchmark sound that all were based on and use individual pedals. If one pedal quits, 1 pedal is relatively cheap to replace, even a multi effects unit. I don't think tubes are going anywhere soon. I do still use a little Yamaha THR amp which sounds great for what it is, I did have an SS amp with digital effects at one time, it last for about 1 year of regular use before a couple parts went, I repaired and sold it. You make good points about the current units that are all digital, if phased out or they break that's likely it, in the trash(electronics recycling). I'll stick with what I have(I also no longer play out) which is another factor in my choices.
Whats great is we have choices. And with all of those choices we just need to be aware of what we are buying. We can't always buy for the future. Sometimes we need solutions for now. Enjoy what you've got and have fun playing music!
Tube amps vs solid state is kind of like the quartz crisis in watches, if you know about that. There is a trend of all of these cheap easy to manufacture by the numbers devices but at the end of the day there is a core tube market that will always remain.
Yes, great reference. The key is distinguishing well manufactured products verses cheaper substitutes....Cheap PCB amps will crap out before digital amps ;)
This is one of the reasons I love companies like Suhr. They are taking inspiration from classic designs and improving upon the core circuitry while retaining serviceability. I'm a Tonex user, but the Bella is on my bucket list not only because it sounds great, but because anyone with a soldering iron and a meter could fix it in the rare situation that it were to go down.
I LOOOVVVEEEEE Suhr. I have a Classic T Deluxe Limited Edition. The craftsmanship in that guitar is stunning. And the Suhr Reactive Load handles all of my amp DI recording. Next I need a Suhr amp for sure...hope you get yours! BTW...TONEX is great. I cover a lot of TONEX on this channel too....in fact I have a TONEX video on the schedule :)
Im with you on only analog tube amps. I always consider the amp as parts, can I build a tube amp out of its parts? So if the tech dies, does it still have value!
I’ve found that most guitarists are not even familiar with the number of great non-modeling solid state amps out there. The standard answer most guitarists I’ve met give for solid state amps is Quilter, Roland JC120, and the Peavey Bandit. Solid state amps like the 80’s series Marshall Lead 100 Mosfet (and the well known Lead 12), the fairly new (last 11 years or so) AMT Stonehead SH-50-4, the older Pearce G2r, Gallien Krueger 250ML and RL, Ampeg VH140c, Marshall 8100 Valvestate like Billy Gibbons used for awhile and groups in the 90’s like Prong, Death, Static X, Meshuggah, and Mudvayne, Hughes & Kettner Black Spirit 200, the well liked Orange Crush Pro CR120 and newer Super Crush 100, the newer HiWatt Crunch series like the Crunch 150r and 350r, the brand new Laney Lead Top and Dual Top amps, the well liked Randall RG, EG amps - these are all relatively inexpensive used and even new. Of course lots of people love the Quilters too, and the Peavey Transtube bandit and the Transtube Supreme head are all good too and the 70’s solid states are even still great (400 series, 260 series) and can even get Plexi-like sounds (check out Johan Segeborn demoing a 400). The list of good solid state amps is actually quite big but most are unaware or played some horrible Peavey from the 80’s with the saturation knob or Crate or Gorilla and think all solid states are like those. My AMT Stonehead SH-50-4 I actually prefer over my Bogner Atma all tube amp. Best solid state I’ve ever played and it’s around $700 new. They make a rack mount 100w version too. I like digital modeling and own some modelers, but simple analog solid state non-modeling amps last a long time if you get some quality ones and amp techs can still work on them easy enough. Hybrid amps are still great too. I love my Marshall 3203 Artist - that solid state 80’s equivalent of a JCM800 series preamp and a 30 watt EL34 power section. Slayer used them for awhile before the regular JCM800’s - lots of bands did and they fit perfect on a Marshall 1965 series 410 with the G10L-35’s that came with them in the 80’s. I have tube amps too, but I don’t always reach for them and could run out of tubes tomorrow and not be phased at all. I actually haven’t turned on my 50 watt Plexi clone since buying a Lion 68 digital modeling pedal too, so very happy with some digital modeling, tube amps, solid state amps, and analog modeling. I like it all because I kept an open mind about technology used to get my sounds. Also analog modeling is quite a great sound and I prefer it to most digital modeling. Main rig is a Black Widow Audio Designs MGP-1A Analog Modeling Preamp that uses real tubes (4x Tung Sol 12ax7’s ), real analog circuits, and Venum modeling from Black Widow Audio Designs. 18 preamp models/channels of some of the best amps ever made. I use an Axiom Effects PAE-1 Power Amp Emulator with it. All analog pedal with some of the very best tube power amp emulation I’ve ever heard or felt playing. Really dynamic response and controls for negative feedback, Bias, PI Gain, power tube type, rectifier tube (or SS rectifier) type, switch for cathode bias/fixed bias, switch for push-pull/single-ended operation, Master output and Power knob for headroom in 5w to 100w settings, internal flyback voltage control, internal dip switches for impedance setting - analog modeling the tube power amp. I actually replaced two real tube power amps (EL34 and 6V6) and two attenuators with two PAE-1 pedals last year. Between the MGP-1A and the PAE-1, no digital modeler I’ve heard can touch the realism of the modeling. So tube vs digital modeling may be seen as the only choices but really there are so much more if you look. I do prefer real cabs live and IR’s for recording or mix of real cabs and Cab Sims for live playing.
I have a Fractal AX8 I'm trying to sell and it ain't easy, I'm considering buying a real amp for the reasons you exposed in your video. If I buy an FM9 Turbo MKII now for $2,000, how long before it gets obsolete? When it does one has to practically give it away.. It's a bit out of control
Unfortunately that's the cycle of digital gear. Get as much use out of it as you can. The fractal stuff is well built so as long as it's taken care of it should still work beyond its firmware support. But with digital nothing is guaranteed...
I wouldn't bank on that....maybe you got a great deal when you bought it. Great unit, don't get me wrong. I have a Helix here...but it's value will plummet as soon as they release an updated model...just enjoy it...it's a great device...
@@LonelyRocker nope, in Uk new it was £600 it’s now on average £999 on eBay averaging £700,not selling anyway 😁going back to an amp/cab and pedals after being digital for 20years + my Lea Paul and helix don’t play nice the buzz from the LP is horrendous, it’s great a and quiet through amps all other guitars are quiet through helix
I suspect the new version of the FM9 will just have the larger scribble strips that have made it to all their other floor devices. I bet there are no other changes. People still spend a premium on used models of FAS devices that have fallen out of support and they tend to retain their value over time compared to their competitors. The new firmware 6.0 on the FM9, currently in Beta, is amazing! It is already out on the AxeFX III. Best modeled plate and spring verbs you can get. Gapless switching and lots of improvements to the modeling are amazing. The feel and gap between the FAS models compared to the real counterparts continues to shrink. If your benchmark for feel and sound is recording with the physical cabinet in another room you literally can’t tell the difference. The only real difference is if you are standing in front of the cab. Being able to set speaker impedance curve and use a physical power amp to a physical Cab you can completely recreate the feel and sound of the tube amp in the room. I still love physical Amps and have some on my list to acquire but I don’t need to for any reason. It is strictly a want. You’ll see fewer and fewer physical amps as they continue to increase in price. If I’m spending $3000+ for a quality Amp I’d honestly rather put my money into a PRS Guitar. Especially as more and more venues move to silent stages. Again, if you put your back line off-stage, perhaps in a box mic’d somewhere there is no longer a difference in feel or sound to a FAS device.
For me modelers are tools that can provide value if you make money using them. So best to monetrize them while you can because they are not long term investments. But they can bring great short term value if you can capitalize on that like savings in touring costs, added features in your studio etc...But good amps are forever. To me that's the biggest difference...
My days in a band are over after many years and I'm 63 now. Still have a few Vox AC30TBXs I'm trying to sell. Damn, that's hard find someone who want to buy them. I'm playing quite a bit in my home studio but it's all digital now and frankly I love it. Would I use digital if I was still gigging? I doubt that but I also understand stage volume is an issue these days so eventually live music will suffer a bit from this too. You often see drum kits with plexi shields surrounding the kits and during my final years playing live I used plexis also for my amps just to be able to turn them up. But in a digital world we need to get used to wedges or in-ears. And you can't really say they all sound that good. Interesting topic for sure.
The world has changed for sure. Both modelers and amps still have their place. I have both because I want to experience everything. With DI connectivity and attenuators you can still enjoy tube amps at lower volumes. And good amps will last for a long time while digital gear will age out....that's the reality today.
Drummers are the bane of us guitar players. The heavy-handed agressive stick technique that drummers prefer causes us guitar players to turn it up louder than we might prefer (and louder than many audiences like). Even an unmiked drum kit can be exceedingly loud, making everyone in the band turn up (including the PA system).
I reckon you missed loudness. Most folk can't play a tube amp full volume at home, even with a Two Notes device. With a multi FX, just stick your earphones on and you're good to go - without getting divorced/evicted :)
My main point was amps having digital tech inside...I used modelers as an example of how digital products can become obsolete and I didn't want that tech inside a tube amp...it's risky....
@@LonelyRocker - Dunno whether they still do it, but one company places red hot valves on top of mother boards - which is nuts imo. I take your point about digital preamps though - unfortunately that ship's sailed - can anyone afford a totally valve amp these days? ...and even if they could there's reliability issues. John Cordy tried to gig with a valve amp last year and hit a world of problems with breakdowns.
1st, historically there always has been either a third party or the original manufacturer(like the factory contracted) that will keep these circuit-boards on hand for products like keyboards and other music gear, if you are buying what is considered on of the major brands and sold a lot of these units then you will probably be able to buy those parts for a decently while even if the company goes bust, as longt as there remains a demand for them. 2nd, if the shift to digital/solid state is a threat to rube amp manufacturers the threat remains and will remain at the pre-amp/effects level of sound production, speakers and power amps will do fine because a set of studio monitors aren't going to be more attractive then a 4x12 for jamming and practice, they sound better in that case, and tube power does sound a little better then solid state. I'd conclude by sayin that tube amp manufacturers should consider a line of platform amps, a nice tube power amp with just a presence and eq, something like everything after the return only heads. this would let someone like me buy a 5/50/100 watt power head for substantially lower price then if i wanted to get a Marshall head and only use the return on it. I have a quilter microblock 45 on my pedal-board and if i need it i have a valvestate 100 watt head. I would prefer to have a tube head with a presence and volume, maybe a 200 watt one for the headroom.
Just like almost every single ss amp ever made the digital modelers are going to last forever without ANY maintenance. While i see your point with tube amp manufacturers combining technologies with digital aspects,(which is a terrible idea) these modelers will never need maintenance. They will never need to go to a repairman. Even if something does happen to one of these modelers within its lifespan you will be able to buy another one for a small portion of the cost of the tube amps that seem to just keep going up in value. Modelers have been doubley accepted, you said it yourself. With that being said they are going nowhere. I for one love both tube amps and modelers. We have needed, for a long time, something to balance the ridiculous markup universe and im so very greatful even it is going to take some time. Its already started.
I'm with you. I enjoy both also. Digital tech has allowed me to build a great home studio. But Digital products fail. I have had a couple go down without warning and I couldn't fix them. And my main point was simply not liking digital tech inside a tube amp...which you agree. I think we agree!! ;-)
That's why I leave my precious Tube amps at home and bring my cheap Tonex with a few pedals to a gig. They sound good with the right captures and a good monitor system, okay you miss the tube amp feeling, but that is something you have to get used to. The audience will not hear the difference. If it breaks , that's sad, but it is replaceable for not too much money. We live in a throwaway society and that's a shame !!! New law regulations in our city commands that we are not allowed to play louder then 95db . If a pub owner gets caught they take his permission to organize live music and if they measure 96db it's goodbye permission....So every pub holder is buying a calibrated limiter and put it on their PA systems. A tube amp at 95 db sounds dull, nowhere near its sweet spot, and has no advantage in comparison with a modeler with an FRFR. A lot of cities are forced to go in a other direction because of these law restrictions. You'll see more and more silent stages and more and more proffesional artists are playing with in-ears and no amps anymore. A few weeks ago I saw Mateus Asato and Guthrie Govan with a Kemper and in-ears...They bring their USB stick and load it into the Kemper and off they go. If you see what the costs of new tubes are then you're gonna think twice. Electro Harmonix exports less Tubes due to the export ban of Mr.Putin. I think Tube amps will be more of a studio thing and for playing at home with loadboxes and such. That whole hybrid amp thing with digital stuff and tubes is temporary IMHO, it's a trend. I would never buy that. The good old times are gone unfortunally.
@@jsalvatori I agree with that. Going digital an advantage for a audio engineer. But when I perform with my own punk rock band at a larger stage I prefer the raw organic punchy tube amp sound. It's a feel thing. When I perform with my blues band my Fender Super Reverb has much more dynamic range which is important for my guitar playing because I work a lot with my guitar volume knob.When I play with a cover band in a pub with a lot of different sounds I prefer digital and Tonex gives me that.
@@marcohermans3207 with the live amps there are tricks to help. Side wash instead of pointing the amp straight at the crowd. Let us throw a packing blanket over it. Angle it up so you're using it like a monitor. Etc. The louder the audience hears your amp, the harder I have to push everything else to get it balanced, and at some point I stop trying because it's dangerous to the crowd, and to me. I wear hearing protection when I go to shows, but I can't when I'm mixing. So my shows are kept to a safe volume based on duration.
@@jsalvatori , we use these clearsonic amp shields to protect the audience in the front rows going deaf. Our soundguys know what they are doing . We tried the new Fender Tonemaster Super Reverbs at our blues shows but there was something missing in the depth and the organic nature of these modeling amps at stage volume. We get complaints from our audience so we went back to the tube Super Reverbs. Between a Tube amp and a guitar player is a connection, that is still missing from their digital counterparts but I have to say that it's becoming better and better with every generation of these digital devices.
I've been playing for 50 years and gigging for 40. I've seen and used a half-century of guitar tech. My 2 cents: KISS (not the band), keep it simple, stupid. Find a guitar and an amp that works for you, add minimal effects, and concentrate on developing YOUR sound and technique.
The main problem with modeling equipment is that it is not aware of the sound reproduction equipment (actual amp/cab or PA) and the room it is being used in. To solve this problem, it would be necessary to use a high-quality reproduction system and perform a room calibration. Done wrong, modeling is only a fancy pedal.
My fender Mustang is an example. You see in video games that don't keep servers online, or how UPlay lost all the data for Ubisoft games...anything that has an app has a limited lifespan as new versions of the os make them redundant. If I go buy a 68 Traynor hand wired amp, it can be rebuilt with parts off a shelf. I can not go fix my mustang from 2000s if it has software issues. I had a Digitech RP50 that acted up and basically became a brick as it was more to repair than to buy a newer better unit.
I mean what about digtal syths? They are in the same place as tube amps not modulers... Although why buy a moduler over an amp sim? Where as Digtal syths will also sound different to remakes and softwear synths... Which I think a listern can tell especly on video and can care but most as you've said only care if they sound good in the first place not what they are.
This is a very valid argument. On this channel my focus is guitar and related gear. I also think this argument is relative to other areas as well. What about drums? That's a huge one too. As a guitar player I love tube amps so I made this video...but you could do a whole series about electric pianos to synths to any instrument a synth replicates. That would be an interesting video!
@@LonelyRocker True and my point wasn't why didn't you cover it but more that modler didn't have to have limited lives because didtal syths live long lives and have maintained values... Speaking of who said your just a guitar channel anyway?
No I totally got it! Well if you've known my channel for a while I used to be a bit broader "Home studio" channel but niched down to guitar related topics about 2 years ago. Though you will still see the occasional studio gear video like my DAW Controllers and things like that...so maybe 99% guitar related ;)
Interesting topic, but in my experience there is no right or wrong because at the end of the day you’re supposed to be making music and whatever amp you choose just has to sound good and the person playing it has to be able to play, whether a amp has a tube or not won’t matter, the purpose is still to make music, when you hear a great song it just sounds good to you and if it has a good guitar sound to you that’s what matters
Of course. I have embraced both digital and analogue tech and I love it all. It's the digital tech that makes my studio possible. Iw as just noting the potential longevity for certain gear over others. I wasn't trying to say one was better...it's all useful stuff!!
You dont even have to go as far as a digified amp, I recently had a two notes cab m break down on me. And I have regarded the two notes stuff as pretty much bomb proof so far. Not so much with their stomp boxes. Give it wmough of a rough handling and your jacks or power supply breaks down. It doesnt take batteries either. There goes your speaker sim solution for the evening.
Yep...that's an unfortunate reality. I have a Captor X that failed. This is not a reflection of the company. Their gear is great and they stand by and support their gear. But the merging of analog and digital has its limitations...
and you better learn to fix your own stuff as techs who feel comfortable to work on this digital stuff are only ever going to charge more. Otherwise youd have to send it to France lol@@LonelyRocker
I agree totally...Hybrid amps will not be serviceable forever. Any computer/digital tech is like that. Something you didn't mention is that there are trusted companies making not so great tube amps and pretty expensive. These are mass produced on thin circuit boards and typically have tube sockets mounted directly on these boards. These amps are what I call throw away. I had one of these (I assume you'd rather I not mention brand names) that lierally burned up on me. I had a new amp built in cabinet and used chassis. These amps will not last a lifetime like the old ones would. I realize this is a bit off topic, but worth mentioning I think. Just because it's a tube amp without digital features doesn't mean you have an amp that will last a lifetime.
Actually this is a great point and very valid in this discussion. In fact, a few have mentioned this and I am actually now considering selling one of my hybrid amps now while it's in good shape and flip it for a pure tube amp with less of that "green" stuff inside. Thanks for sharing your experience...
While I agree that the feel of the actual real amp in a room is different from a modeler, owning the actual tube amp can be a chore. Had an Orange TH-30C, loved it. But it was a nightmare to get it to gigs, big and heavy. Had to repair it twice. And it was too loud to use in the apartment. Ended up selling it.
I've never considered an amp a chore!! If you love amps, it's a small price to pay to maintain them. If you're open to other things, that's cool too...
Imagine if amp modeling had happened way back when the tweed Fender Deluxe was first produced, and that model was based on the intended level and settings of the day, that is, clean, avoiding distortion, since distortion was to be avoided by the original design parameters. Had the model been based on what the Deluxe was designed to do, the model would never have considered intentional distortion to be within the model, so no matter what one did with the amp based on the model, it would not distort because said distortion was not part of the model. As we all know, the sound of a distorting tweed Deluxe is as iconic as the sound of a snare drum or the shape of a Stetson hat, and that distorted bloom of harmonics would never have been realized had players not taken the Deluxe beyond the design intention and established the distortion produced as an intentional characteristic.
@@LonelyRocker Even a modeller requires an amp if you want to hear any sound. There is no getting away from owning an amp as a guitarist. I own many modellers and they are great for recording, but suck for jamming with my friends.
I like my AC15 and pedals, but I get bored with it in half an hour and move back to my digital solutions going into cabs, or monitors, or earphones, or to my theater system, or bluetoothed to my outdoor sound system. I love pulling up millions of dollars worth of amps and effects within seconds and playing every genre of music you can imagine in a split-second. Tube amps are good for the touch responsiveness and emulating the same sounds and artists we've heard for over half a century. But they don't do enough for the modern musician or someone trying to create new music and sounds. I might buy some more tube amps in the future, but it's while knowing I'm paying exponentially more for a fraction of the features.
I like the hybrid style like the Revv G20 so you have the sound and feel of a tube amp when you want it but you can plug in and use a quality DI. I think these days that many players aren't thinking in terms of repairability. We have cell phones, TV's, laptops, game consoles and they all have an expected lifespan. Planned obsolescence. We have a whole generation raised in an era where we don't even have right to repair in many cases. So the idea of a guitar amp as an investment or something to pass down or only needs repairs isn't even in the thinking. And then when the pros realize that you can get a consistent sound every night and carry a fraction of the gear while losing maybe 10% of the mojo it's a no brainier. And once you step into the digital realm the diversity of sounds is amazing. People don't tend to want or buy expensive large tube amps when you can get something close enough for a fraction of the price. Why buy a 4k SLO when Neural makes a plugin for 100$? I'm sure the original is better but is it 3900$ better? And you never have to repair it, replace tubes, worry about volume, fear it will get stolen or destroyed. I love my tube amps but it's hard to resist the combination of price, convenience and options.
Some very good points here but where we win is with choice. The definition of the word "value" has evolved when it comes to gear has radically changed. And the needs of players have evolved to reflect this change. But with choices players never had before it can bring solutions to a wider collection of guitar players. And with more guitar players, we all win....
You are so right! Of course modern modelers can sound _REALLY_ great! No question about that, but all those little computers with its proprietary ICs and of course proprietary software on it can't be easily repaired. Often it can not be repaired AT ALL because manufacturer can't support them forever and they also depend on the modern IC market. Personally I would never buy a modeler for anything else except for quick studio sessions or situations in which weight is a concern. You can not develop a "relationship" with an isntrument which is a bunch of digital waste in near future. That is all due to the custom ICs and firmware... Not so much with "digital" ICs itself, since there are many which are produced over decades!
Great video I really enjoyed it. I couldn't agree with you more it's so important to build a product that's going to last. I'm definitely not a big fan of digital plugins or modeling. I'm proud that our amps are without circuit boards and built like a tank. For me it's extremely frustrating to spend good money on something that's going to fail or need repair in a short amount of time. That's why stereo tube amps are the best! 🎸
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it! We just really need to know what we are buying and have to avoid fads. I have found a place for modelers in my studio alongside my tube amps but I know they won't be forever. Your amps look awesome! Would love to try one sometime!
You never know!!! Been a while since I was in California but I've been there many times....let's keep in touch. Can you email me? My addy is on my about page...
TBH we need more accessible/affordable tube power amps, or solid state power amps with power tube emulation, without a preamp attached. Not all of these modelers have power tube emulation, and not all of the ones that do have GOOD power tube emulation. Hughes & Kettener and Blackstar are prime examples of GOOD power tube sim, along with IR loaders that have power amp emulation (Mooer Radar, Joyo Cab Box) are great for use with PA systems or into a power amp to run through a cab. Guitar Fetish has a pedal that does nothing but clean boost your FX loop with either 6L6 or EL34 drive and voicing emulation (GFS Twin Clean Drive), and Ignite Amplification has a VST that even does this (TPA-1). These help digital and solid state products sound more life-like.
@@LonelyRocker yup, a tube or solid state amp with digital works far better if you use a multi-FX pedal with a normal amp, either via 4 cable method or just putting the multi-FX in the FX loop outright if you already have pedals to put in front. Otherwise, if you want digital, go full digital. Get a Zoom or an FM3/FM9 or one of the Mooer GE units or the Headrush MX-5, maybe a MOD Dwarf or whatever, etc.The only thing that's useful for adding digital function to an analog tube or solid state amp is the XLR or 1/4" TRS balanced DI outs with digital IR's, because if that breaks, it's usually on a separate, printed circuit board using very little power connected via wire, so it isn't likely to take the rest of the amp with it unless there is an utter catastrophic issue via grounding short, which most amps and other circuitry are designed to avert these days for fire safety reasons.
It depends on the type of music one plays. I am an old school R&B player, I embrace newer technology, I have been playing guitar since the early 60s. At this point I am quite happy with my Tone King Imperial MK ll. It will probably be my last amp.
I believe that the amplifiers of the big brands assembled on PCBs are disappearing, while small companies that build quality handwired amplifiers are making their way.
I certainly hope so. If amps are going to remain distinguished from modelers it has to because they are built to last. Quick and cheap doesn’t cut it with amplifiers.
I have played on Tube and solid state amps since the 60s. I even have a modeling amp now but I'll take my Classi 30 tube amp over all of them. Portable, sounds great and takes pedals well. I really don't need an amp that tries to imitate 30 other amps and cabinets. Probably the ultimate amp would be a Boss tube amp with the GT-100 multieffects built in.
I guess you have to really play tube amps to really love them. Modelers cheat. They are not amps. They are amps plus multi-effects. But together they can make magic :)
I wonder where you see this trend. Cause the tubemeister and vhx are old news and afaik all popular brands still have fully analog flagships except for brands like ENGL whi always have had midi switching etc. The only thing i can think of is practice amps and maybe fenders' tonemaster series and then maybe midi switcjing amps like hook and ENGL but tjose are quite basic midi systems that have existed for years.and they are more of an exception. So yeah i don't see a trend.
Honestly, the biggest trend I see are amps that have built in DIs. And the way these are made are wildly different. Many companies have adopted Two Notes technology. I know those guys. Great people and I like their standalone tech but I don't want it inside of my amps because they rely on digital connectivity and it's proprietary. I think you'll see more amp companies integrating tech into their amps because they have to find ways to compete. But I don't think it bodes well for the longevity and FULL functionality of those products.
The trend has been here and Your right on point! Take the Bogner Spider Valves, which were actually great if You take Your time with it! I saw that Diezel and thought Wow a touch screen version! I’m waiting for the tube amp that You can lock Your iPad into lol
@@LonelyRocker true well I probably will sell one of my large cabs and amp not using to fund the modeler and another guitar. I will keep my Mesa and Mezzabarba tube amps.
Dude.... Its not about replacement parts. Its not about getting "the latest thing". Its about sounding good at low volume. How much did that house cost you?...ok... THATS the price of owning a JCM 900. Gotta have a place to turn it up. If marshall came out with an amp that sounded great at low volume... Id buy it in a heartbeat. But they didnt. They forced a guy like Thomas Blug do it
I did say it was about how it sounds and the audiences don't care. My point was the long term investment. I'm in a house with a family and I can't jack it up but I use load boxes and play my amps at reasonable volumes but I can dime them as hard as I want. Great way to record. Attenuators and Load boxes are pretty cheap. Anyone with an amp can add one of those and enjoy the benefits of their amps at lower volumes...
No gear will ever sound good at low volume. Not in person because of how our ears interact with speakers and pressure waves. A Vin 30 sounds good once the neighbours hear it. So unless you are using headphones on a modelling amp and no real speaker it won't sound good on low volume. Even a single watt is very loud with an efficient speaker. Vin 30 with 1 watt is 100db...2 watts and it's 103db. I tried black Star both 5 and 1 watt, sounds good but your speaker is not bedroom level. Don't blame Marshall for physics. Even the 1 watt Marshall's, which you can still buy can be very loud.
It occurs to me that many of the young guys may have never heard or even seen the physical models of these amps in person. So they won’t know what it sounds like in a room, they only know what a model sounds like in headphones or monitors. If that’s good or bad, I don’t know. I guess it could be liberating because they won’t get obsessed with finding a VST that is an exact replica of a 5150 they never even seen in person. It’ll just be “Does it sounds cool?” Yes or no.
That's a GREAT point! It occurred to me many that argue for modelers clearly have never played through an amp but I never thought about it in those terms. they base their sound on what they ehar i headphones and not what the actual amps do...well played!
I surely prefer puristic tube amps. No modeling is going to give me the tube sag, the entire feel of playing just the rather new Orange OR30 I own since recently, for example. And it’s not even a responsive amp, but it forms the sound so beautifully and pure, I don’t think any modeling will ever give me this specific sensation. And not just that, add a 1960BX with stock Greenbacks for really amazing and very lively speaker breakup on top, which produces a random type of fuzz/distortion I never heard from any pedals or modeling yet, analog or digital. Pure bliss of the very special kind, you’ll never find this type of sound anywhere outside of physical tubes and physical speakers doing their job right.
I agree 100% on the purity of the relationship between a guitar and a real amp and I will always play through Amos for as long as I am able. But modelers have their place and do provide solutions to those that just can’t play through amps. But I hope a,ps are here for the long haul. Guitar wouldn’t be the same without them.
It is alarming how much software stuff are temporary and I don't think we realise the extent of it yet... App enabled gadgets are pretty cool now but it will become a nighmare... I had this issue this week when I took out a drone I bought 3 years ago. Brand new piece of hardware that has lost over 50% of its features because the app is not on the app store anymore... Developper need to pay to key their app up to date, but why would they do it if they won't make money for that product...business wise, its the logical outcome, but consumer wise, we are doomed. So like you said, software stuff are just not an investment. Glad I still have my old 5150.
Tell me about it...I have a Gimbal..same thing. They won't update the software to work on newer phones. They want you to buy a new gimbal...It works perfectly fine...app doesn't....terrible....
The main issue with tube amps is initial cost in most cases for home users, your JCM900 at home requires an attenuator, so buying that amp today is going to cost you, for discussion sake, 1000$, you have to add a good attenuator so 500$ more. You cannot play with headphones even after all that money, this is today's reality, a 100w tube amp in an apartment is just stupid. For 500$ you have a decent modeler that does it all. Consumerism has also caught up with guitar players things are not made to last and to be repairable now.
Very valid. And I wasn't suggesting real amps are a better solution for everyone. Listen, digital gear makes my studio possible. It wouldn't exist if it wasn't for digital products. But I know the digital gear and software will likely become obsolete. I spent over 2000 dollars on Waves plugins and I got tired of them asking me to re-up with their update plan every year so I said screw it. I updated my computer and none of those plugins work anymore unless I agree to pay another annual fee for plugins I already paid for. This is the worst of what digital gear offers. On the flip side..modelers have brought amp tones to players that might never had had the opportunity to play them. And that is a great thing. Just take care of that gear and hope you never need to repair it :)
It used to be guitarists complained about not being able to recreate the tone,now that they can create the tone the guitar players are now claiming it’s the “feel” what’s next,there gonna be claiming you can’t recreate the smell of tubes warming up and that’s the difference?
None of anyone's sound is going to mean a thing if anyone can get any sound they want at a click of a button. It used to be sweet to go to shows and see what gear people had, now it's just an amp modeling board. Yawn.
I hate that about plugins! I've started investing in hardware for recording and mixing. I've got the plugins I couldn't live without but I'm trying to rely less on them and I think it sounds better too IMO. Like you said those plugins that you think you own might not work one day but hardware will never change.
How is it more affordable? The FM9 is $2k, then you need a power amp and a cab just to be able to approximate a tube amp so that you can jam in your room without being connected to your computer??? A lot of guitarists, myself included don't want to be tethered to a laptop or PC, they just want to plug in and play.
Great points. Cost is relative to need. Though many players do go to front of house with modelers so they can get but with just the one device. But ideally you at least need a cab if some sort to untether.
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Great points. As a boutique amp builder I keep the tube amp as simple as possible and ease of maintenance is a top priority. The digital effects are kept external but the amps do need access ports such as an effects loop and line-out to make interfacing easier.
I LOVE access. Effects loops? 100%. The more routing the better. But amps trying to be modelers is a big mistake in my opinion. It's all marketing. And amp will never a be a modeler and those of us that love amps don't want them to be. What amps are you making?
@@LonelyRocker I came up with an amp based on the Trainwreck, which is essentially a VOX AC 30. I have 15 and 30 Watt versions, with an added gain boost, Effects Loop, Aux Input (for connecting to an MP3 player for adding backing tracks) and spring reverb. These are all-tube designs and have sold only a few to close friends. It is more expensive to build these than I first realized. Hard to see how to make a business out of boutique amps unless you have higher demand and can purchase parts in volume. However, I can proudly say mine are very high-quality builds with ample design safety margins that should last a lifetime. Thanks for asking!
@Jake-fo3rg sounds awesome. Love the concept. Hope you find more players to enjoy your creation. Cheers!
End of life factor aside, having products that are based on digital platforms will inevitably enable companies to get greedy and lock features behind subscription models. Which forces you to keep spending. Whereas a real amp, keeps working no matter what.
Exactly! I didn't get into plugins but I did a video a while ago where I mentioned my Waves plugins. I spent a small fortune on Waves plugins not realizing they wanted an annual "upgrade plan" fee every year. They stopped working when I migrated to my new computer and they won't work again unless I pony up a few hundred backs to activate the newest versions of plugins I already paid for. And most of those have no new features! So I wouldn't actually be paying for anything. How's that for progress!!
@@LonelyRocker ah yes such a great point! I love my tube amps and compared software and hardware modelers to tube amps and the feel of tube amp is better. Natural and powerful. I can use stomp boxes for effects easier too.
I have two Marshall amps. One solid state and the other is tube. I also have a modeler with all my presets in it. One thing that I have noticed is, if I connect the modeler to the solid state amp, then connect it to the tube amp, the tones are very different. Even using the same models on both. The tones coming out of the tube amp sound so much better. I think that even if you are using a modeler like me, you should still invest in a tube amp if you want your presets to sound really good.
I use the hybrid model in my studio and find tube amps work really great with good modelers, especially when recording. High quality effects and good signal routing is a huge thing in a studio....And the amps thrive in that setup....with load boxes of course :)
Johan segeborn did a piece on the minimoog. Now the software sounds good, no doubt, but the harmonics from the analog sounds so much better. The sustain and notes, even on a synth sound very different from old analog to new digital.
@timothymartin2137 Actually, this happens in both tube and solid state amps. You overdrive a tube to distort by increasing the gain on the tubes in the preamp. When you increase the gain to where the tubes start to distort, the sound you get is called even order harmonics. And it sounds very good. If you remove the tubes and replace them with transistors and do the same thing, the sound you get from transistors is called odd order harmonics. This sounds terrible, and that's why its been taking a very long time to get solid state amps to sound good. Its extremely difficult to replicate what a tube does with transistors. I'm sure you've notices that solid state guitar amps tend to come with much higher power ratings than tube amps. Most people assume tube watts are more powerful than SS watts. Its actually the complete opposite. The real reason for the high output on SS amps is because they can't have the transistors being overdrive with gain. The more powerful and clean an amp is, the harder it is to make it distort. That's where digital comes in. Instead of making distortion in the analog domain, it gets taken care of in some type of dsp module before it goes to the analog preamp.
In recent years, some manufacturers have figured out a way to "cheat". Instead of trying to get a SS amp to sound like tubes, companies like IK and Kemper sample and capture the sound of real tube amps, and then process that signal. Actual tubes are use to make the samples, and this makes it much easier for designers. When you think about it, if you are using a sampling dsp module, you're still listening to tubes.
@timothymartin2137 Hey. If tubes win that is the point to me 😎🤘🏽🎸
@timothymartin2137 I don't think you read my post as I intended. To start with, I wasn't disagreeing with you about the differences in sound you hear. I was just trying to give a better explanation as to why.
" No...transistors are an on off thing...they dont distort gradually like tubes..."
Some of that is true, and some of it is misapplied, and true under different circumstances. Yes, transistors are switches. They like to be on or off. In most audio applications, however, they're not used that way. Tubes are also called valves. The reason for this, is that's how they work. They can be on, off or anything in between, and work as intended. You can also run transistors the same way as tubes, but there is a price to pay. Any time you run a transistor in between on and off it generates a tremendous amount of hear. That's why solid state amps tend to be big and heavy. They need big heat sinks and overbuilt parts to handle the excess heat generated by running the transistors in between on and off. This has nothing to do with distortion or overdriving the signal with gain. So even though you are not using the transistors as switches, its OK because they are designed to be used in this manner.
Going back to your comments on distortion, you can overdrive the input tubes or transistors exactly the same way. When you apply gain to the transistor, it can be done gradually, just like a tube. That's not the problem. The problem is they just don't sound the same as tubes when overdriven. That's where even and odd order harmonics come into play. While you are looking to overdrive the input tubes on a tube preamp, you don't necessarily want to do the same thing on a solid state preamp, but you could. It just won't yield the same results sonically.
Above, I said you may be misapplying some of the concepts you referenced. I don't have enough information to be certain, but I'm pretty sure I know what you were talking about. Any time someone brings up transistors are switches, they're almost always talking about class D amps. A class D amp works by using transistors the way they were meant to be used. Instead of running the output transistors in between on and off, a class D amp taps off the input signal, and uses it to turn the output transistors on and off really fast, instead of running them in between. The big advantage is they generate almost no heat. That's how these tiny amps can generate a lot of power with making virtually no heat. One common misconception with class D amps is that they are digital. They're not. If I remember correctly, the first class D amp came out in the mid 1950's. As always, marketing departments will act on just about anything they can dream up. The sound you hear on a class D amp is analog from input to output. Its never digital. What really happens is, on some amps, when the input signal is tapped to run the transistors, it gets converted to digital first. But the digital signal is only used to switch the transistors. It has nothing to do with the signal path. And since there is digital tech being use in the amp, it gives the marketing department just enough to make the claim that the amp is digital.
The one last thing I wanted to mention, is how the amps are sampled, or modeled. You're correct when you say you are working with solid state modelers, and they can be used to model both tube and SS gear. My point was, with some products, like Kemper, tube amps are recorded, and that's what the modeler uses to reconstruct the sound of the amp. Recording a tube amp is much easier than trying to build the sound from scratch.
Sorry if there was anything I said that was confusing. Hopefully I was able to make a better point in this post.
I worked in a guitar store for several years and played all of the well known (tube and modeling) amps. To this day, no modeling Amp can 100% replace the feel and tone you get from a (well designed) tube amp. The feel is different. The modeling stuff came a long way, but there is still a difference. Same thing with Studio/recording gear. You can`t replicate the sound of analog gear with plugins. Maybe 85-90%, but the depth and feel of analog gear is not replaceable. Get a well designed tube amp and be happy for the next 50 years.
I’m a sworn tube guy but digital has made my studio possible. But my point of this video are amps that have digital components. That concerns me.
Got it, but wanted to make a statement for tube amps anyway :-) @@LonelyRocker
I'm with you on the amps though! First ones in and they will be the last ones out!! :)
@@LonelyRockerThe manufacturers have streamlined their tube choices...those old ampegs that used "hi fi" tubes sound incredible like no other brand, both warm and clear...it's a shame to think they'll end up in landfills just because those tubes no longer exist, while the stuff that gets made going forward all sounds vaguely similar
My problem is that a very important fraction of my sound comes from the speakers doing their thing at the db level they were designed to do it at. The other problem is that I've never been able to program the fractal or whatever to physically react like 4 carefully biased gain stages in conjunction with a 2204's PI. The end result is an old HD500X into a Furman PQ4 into a JC120 into 2 cabs for digital or my 2204 into an MF cab for real sound
I love my tube amp. My most expensive piece of gear and it sounds otherworldly. Unfortunately, these days I only use it for fun. Nothing beats playing in front of one. For songwriting and recording though it's only a Helix VST for me now. Why? It always sounds the same between sessions. I no longer have to worry about mics and placement. It cuts the workflow in half. I can find a sound after-the-fact with no hassle at all if I need to. But still, nothing beats standing in front of a good tube amp and cab. I'll always have it to fall back on if I need to.
Good video
What is the tube amp?
@@xxczerxx I have an Ampliphonix and Gain from Amplified Nation. Sort of a Bassman meets Plexi. I mostly stick to the Bassman side of it.
@@xxczerxx you need a "TUBE".
@@xxczerxxAn amplifier based on thermo-ionic valves aka vacuum tube preamp and power amps. This technology is superior to solid state in the the manner it distorts, in even number harmonics vs solid state which distorts in harsher odd number harmonics.
Modeling amps be it guitar or digital pipe organ sampled off the real organ, digital pianos, and of course the digital orchestral instruments, some are close some are not so close, and all are “no cigar.” Some sorta mimic, some are caricatures, most people with a good ear live can tell the difference.
It has always been about the experience. I don't think the listener has ever cared about the gear unless the listener is a musician. They mostly care if the volume is right and if they can clearly hear the vocal part and any key hooks.
I disagree. I for one have always loved to see what gear a player is using. Ok maybe not the masses but musicians love to compare notes.
@@LonelyRocker Thanks for calling me out, haha! Indeed I over-generalized. It is easy to become cynical these days considering how much the live music scene has changed over my lifetime (first live gig in the 90s).
The non-musician members of the audience may not know gear specs, but most still have opinions about tone, though they might articulate their opinions in a different manner than the musicians in the crowd. I also overlooked the listener that is not a musician yet but later becomes one because they love the sound of a particular musician.
Such an incredibly balanced, nuanced view. Thank you!
Thanks so much! Glad you feel that way...I use both and just wanted to express a true concern I had...cheers!
I recently added my vintage Axe-FX Ultra (a 16-ish year old device) to my rack in my studio and am enjoying playing through it these days... Ahh, those vintage digital tones! 😆
Being sentimental with old new tech. That bends my mind into weird shapes 😂😂😂😂
If it works it's not going to age. Why not.
They are plenty of people still into buying old digital 15 year old Zoom pedals for that 'sound'.
I run A/B comparisons with a Radial A/B/Y pedal. Axe/Fx setups are not that far off the tube mark. I play and enjoy both. I use a Mesa Boogie 50/50 for amping AxeFx, and old rack pieces that still have over-the-top tones like Rocktron VooDu Valve which has 1 12ax7 tube, Chameleon, and others. FUN in the first degree is the point and the end result! Ear protection is still important at home too!
@@LonelyRockerunrelated but there’s people who purposefully want digital clipping in their mixes too 😂
@@kalidesuthem zoom pedals are fire ngl
For recording there are true advantages to modelers that tube amps can't really compete with. But if you want the real feel, fun and joy of playing guitar then only a good tube amp and cab will give you that! Once you get use to play with an amp and cab at good enough volume then you know the difference! 🤘
Or do what I do and record with both!!! :)
the bigger concern is PCB mounting of tube mounts and potentiomiters etc . if you go valve then go for something point to point wired .
Very good point....some mp makers try to cut costs...need to know what you are buying....
From what ive gathered its more of a concern with tube combos. Because with combos you have the tubes underneath the board cooking it the entire time its on and running hot. When the tubes are above the board all that heat is allowed to escape upwards, not into the pcb
The big problem is that the components are soldered to the PCB using a flow soldering technique, so the component legs are not up to temperature so the joint is flawed to begin with. To re flow the joints when they fail, you have to remove the whole circuit board, which obviously adds to the labour cost to the customer.
The other thing guaranteed to give an amp tech a bad day is the practice of glueing the components to the board, it's always a worry getting them out.
A hand built amp can also use whatever quality of tone capacitors you like, almost always better than a mass produced PCB amp.
How would you know if its wired this way? Been doing some research and as far as I can see, most tube amps have QC issues so I'm left with nothing to choose from. 🤷♂️
I love VST for creating music, riff etc..Mock up versions pretty much,But, if i stay in that zone for a long time and i start playing on Tube Amp-oh boy, all of the sudden i dont know how to play :) Great one Dan!
Thanks! I wonder if my point was missed in this video. My concern is tube amps with digital components and the risk they pose on longevity for the amps.
Im sure there would be a tons of debates and rethinking as digital merging with analog word so progressively ..As a musician, I was kinda disappointed to see Metallica switching but thats not what fans care about , i guess@@LonelyRocker
@alekp6822 The amp world is not as certain as it once was. But I can tell you, any amp I buy going forward will ONLY be analogue. I love my digital gear for what it is but I’m keeping that separate. 😎
Used 6505+ for classic rock cover band for years with good results. Using a combo hybrid amp now, line 6 bogner valve. For smaller venues just a line 6 pod go, with a small powered speaker. Did have my first pod go fail after 18 months, but got a free replacement!
Good to embrace a hybrid solution in this age. Great way to go!
@@LonelyRocker yes the tubes seem to help with the tone!
Interesting to hear you say that. As someone who started playing circa 1994, we truly didn't know what tube amps were.
Amps were amps. We knew Peavey, Marshall, Vox. My friends dad had an old jazz tube amp. We hated it. It couldn't do distortion.
The stuff at SamAsh and GC (when it opened) were all solid state (at least what we saw and could afford).
The only pedals were Boss, a few from MXR, Dunlop wahs, Morley volume and some odds and ends.
No one talked about "tone" like we do today. Why? Simply because there was no near-billion dollar marketing apparatus at work, as exists today. We turned on the amp and it sounded good. The neighbors hated it. Good enough for us.
Not once did any of the few players in my circle even think about tone caps or treble bleeds. We just wanted to learn GnR, Nirvana, Metallica and Green Day songs. Even the magazines didn't discuss tone as they do today. Now it's all you hear.
Telling kids who don't know intervals they need to "perfect their tone" is a joke. Thievery.
Hey - tube amps are great. Fractal is better. So much easier and you can carry your entire rig in one trip. I will never go back to analog. Even for listening purposes. Hi-Res isn't as rich as analog but it's so close the human ear can't possibly tell the difference.
The benefit of a tube amp, that almost-imperceptible squish you FEEL and the subtle coloring that comes along with tubes (aka: "warmth") no matter where you use them are only detectable at HIGH VOLUME.
Truthfully, 95% of us will never get to play at such necessary volumes to experience actual high voltage sag in person or feel that "squish" for real.
_Truthfully, the Fractal is 93 - 96% of the way there, and under 110dB, no one will detect the difference._
Even if you do stadium gigs, the FoH doesn't want volume. They want DI and they should.
You might use stage volume, but it isn't necessary. Most bands are doing IEMs, and have been for decades.
Unless you're the Beatles playing Shea Stadium with no PA, there is no need for high wattage amps, tubes, or any of that tone voodoo.
The whole industry needs to shift to quieter amps. Tube distortion and "squish" without volume over 100dB or an Ox Box, etc.
Built in attenuation and circuits clever enough to push tube distortion in a whisper bedroom setting.
THAT is the market.
A lot of people talk about "volume" and how a good amp has to be loud to sound good. That is also something I never thought about back in the 90s when I was gigging and it's not something I always think about now. Yes, amps do magical things when pushed but they have a volume knob for a reason. And with load boxes you can dime them to get all of that juicy saturation and harmonics while enjoying it at bedroom volumes. I have modelling gear too and love it but I would never sell real amps short just because of volume...
I remember being dumb enough to think I had to turn up my solid state Peavey Renown to get it to sound better.
@@jeffmancuso2715You weren't wrong, you _did_ have to turn that thing up for it to sound good!
I had an AX8 for 4+ years, sold it to my bassist and grabbed an FM9 turbo. Many gigs are direct with that…..but sometimes, I do bring out my ‘87 2204 (with a tube loop) and my small rack. Love the tubes 😍 when I can use them….
After being away from any direct involvement with music for over 5 years, I jumped back into it in early '19.
To my amazement, gear like the Boss Katana mkii line and the PRS MT15 were just hitting the scene. I did the Katana thing right away, and even bought a second one to link in stereo. But I still wanted a tube amp for my lead tones.
I ended up finding a 2018 built MT15 with the 6L6 tubes in the power amp section of it. It also has the revised wiring harness to keep it quiet. I feel like between these 2 amps there's really not much I can't do?
My biggest issue with the majority of the guitar amps coming out in the last couple years, is the ridiculous amount of features that's inevitably built into them? Do modern guitarists really want or need all the bells and whistles? I just wanna plug in and play. I don't wanna have to download files or buy expensive cables to link to other devices. I just wanna rock! Sometimes I think all these complex rigs will be landfill sooner than later. And everyone will go back to simple rigs again. That's my hope. I certainly don't need to spend over $1000 U.S. to have fun.
Speaker cabs? That's a whole nother scam going on.
That is what prompted me to make this video. I agree...tube amps should be tube amps. I don't need all that gack in there!!
@@LonelyRocker Yeah, I mean if it's doing what you want, who cares how? Whatevers clever. I like the simpler the better. How can you keep track of all the settings on super complex control layouts? You'd almost have to take pictures for reference. When I heard the Boss Katana saved settings, I was sold. It's very easy to use.
That’s a whole topic onto itself! 🤪
Very true... they are also multiple products that are dependent on a computer or a mobile device. The lifecyle of those are going to be even shorter... The day the OS of the computer evolves, the app running the device might not follow and you are basically stuck...
GREAT POINT! I'm surprised I didn't mention that because I've had concerns about that too. I've dabbled in some of that stuff but now that I have standalone modelers here my amp purchases will be straight analogue with no unnecessary digital components...and I'm sticking to that!
This is exactly what happened with Source Audio pedals. They were meant to work with a phone app connected through a headphone jack.
I have been burned with my Apogee Gio, this is a footswitch control surface. Apogee just said, you know, Apple did change the protocol so the Gio is no longer supported with MacOS version x or later. Instead of investing some time fixing the firmware.
I should do a follow up and talk about this stuff...
Yes
@@LonelyRocker
I got six solid-state amps and no tube and I blew up a solid state and believe it or not my Reverb delay pedal I don’t know what happened to it but it went out and it took out an amp with it DV, Mark 60
Yikes!
If you want the tube sound, you have to deal with the price and the weight etc. If you want the convenience of a modeler, you have to accept getting only 80-90% there. But some situations make the decision for you. I play small venues and blues jams. Using a modeler with IEM and going through the PA is not an option. I have a friend who uses a helix with a small power amp and a cab. That works but it’s not anymore convenient except for the weight. If you are fortunate enough to play where all you need is your fx board and guitar, I get it. I have a pod go I use for silent practice (with my iPad) and it is great.
For those of you using a digital board and no amp, how do you get the amp to “talk back” with controlled feedback? And do any of you go to an open mic/jam? How does that work?
Thanks for the video 👍
My pleasure! I get there are different tools for different scenarios. And Digital gear offers the conveniences amps could never offer. I have both here. My main point was the longer term value of the gear. And digital gear will age out. But I get it that many venues today don't even want the loud amps there...boy times have changed....
@@LonelyRocker Yes I agree. Another thing I forgot to mention is the lower stage volume which is a plus with the modelers
How would you define your first Yamaha amp as sounding "terrible" (1:40)? In other words, how is great vs terrible tone really defined? 🤔
I can let you decide...I featured it here: th-cam.com/video/vnRsS4s-3VY/w-d-xo.html
Is there others out there that can still just hear(feel) that tube sound? It to me still has that feel , it's a warm, honking, hollow but full , resonating in your body type blanket of goodness , like say in the No More Tears solo.................
How say you out there? Am I off my rocker ? Stubborn? Too old? lol
You are bang on. The one thing modelers can never emulate is that feeling of trying to tame an amp and losing....Having fear and respect for a real amp is a thing and it makes a difference!
Yes, "feel" and the way a tube amp pushes air can't be faked. My theory is that younger players who are raised on modelers won't relate or understand this. My theory is "feel" in general is becoming a lost art in playing. There are countless young virtuosos, including girls and pre-teens all over TH-cam who can mimic players like Yngwie without breaking a sweat. I often wonder if it's because younger generations are raised on complex video games and approach the guitar in a more practical way, as if it's a series of cheat codes lol. That being said, I'm seeing less and less "feel". You can simulate technique but not feel. Even bends are becoming things of the past.
Good points..added to that is newer players learning to jam on computers and recording on a grid. Diminished feel right there...
@@Darth.ShredderYounger players aren't used to the sound of actual amps anymore. I remember seeing one of the amp sim companies commenting about how they got reports about a specific rectifier amp sim of theirs being broken because younger players were not used to the sound of loose amps.
I'm a 'hard clipping man,' myself. 🤣
My friends and I who started playing in the 90s, the guitarists are all still using their first decent valve amp. I've friends who play Fenders, Peaveys, Marshalls, even Yamaha oddballs. It used to be you got a good amp, learned how to get the kinds of tones you liked from it, and you were set for life.
As a bass player, I played through an old Trace Elliott combo, then moved to a Hartke because it had wheels and more power.
I don't know if having access to so many different sounds, so early on, would just be a distraction to a new player now. I like amps, since picking up the guitar a decade ago I got a 1970s 50w master volume. It's far too loud and I love it.
We live in a distraction economy. Companies make money only by distracting these days.
Eh it’s easy to get distracted by the options but it’s also easy to just make a twin reverb preset and call it a day 😂 nice for headphone users as well
The new Revv G50 looks pretty sweet! I’ve owned lots of great tube amps over the years. Eventually sold them all off and went modeler several years ago. From a gigging perspective it’s hard to beat the convenience.
I love Revv gear. Yes, the other side of the argument is cost savings and convenience. If you make money using a modeler it will more than pay for itself in convenience over time. So replacing it when the next great one is released is just the cost of doing business...
I've taken the hybrid approach, digital modeling pedals into the effects return of a tube amp. Mostly for more variety because my amps only have 2 channels. And honestly, your audience won't know the difference in a mix.
That's a great solution. I have a hybrid setup for recording and it works really well...
I am just a 'weekend warrior' so my choices in amplification are different than that of a professional. The venues that I play tend to be small and are getting smaller and fewer.I love my Marshall and pedal board and that is really my preferred sound but in many cases it is just too loud to use in smaller venues. A tube amp sounds the best when you are 'pushing' the output tubes. That is the sound of classic rock. I need something that can replicate that sound and a lower volume. Today I am using my Boss Katana MKII 50 for the most part. It is lightweight and easy to carry plus I can get a great tone at a lower volume. If I play and outdoor gig I can always take out my Marshall. I am seriously thinking of getting a Boss GX100 which can be run directly through the front of house. This would be a very versatile rig that allows for a multitude of amp models and effects and is cheap enough that if it were to get damaged or stolen it could be replaced.
The good thing is we have choices now to suit more players. I have embraced digital products too and love what they offer. I just think we need to be realistic. Amp modelers might not last for every but they pay us back in convenience. I have a full video on the gX100 on my channel..check it out!
You bring up great points. I am almost 49. I have been getting by with cheap modelers but it's time to get a real tube amp. I am borrowing a dsl100h. I will never play a modeler again. Now the question is, DSL20HR or spend a lot more and get point to point marshall. Like you mentioned, it should last a life time..
I just think guitar players are missing out if they don't experience the guitar to amp experience. I love digital products. they add so much capability to my studio but as you've noted a great amp is for life. As far as what to get...well that's between you and yours but I hope you grab an awesome one!
I would suggest getting an off brand that does Marshall like overdrive. In Canada you can get a used Traynor ycs50 for 500. It is PCB but a really amazing amp. Electro Harmonix reissued the mig 50 for half the price of any Marshall jcm800 new or used. But if name brand is important, just get the Marshall.
Really good points in this. I sold all my amps recently and bought a Helix product and its AWESOME! But its not “Tangible”.
I dont want digi in my Tube amp either.
To clarify: I do like the direct jack in some new amps but I dont want modeling in a Diezel or anything.
I WILL be purchasing a Tube amp or two again soon.
Glad you enjoyed this. A built in DI does come in handy and you can still use the speaker out separately anyways. I have DIs built into 3 of my amps but I prefer to use an external one anyways. Hope you grab a great amp soon!
I am 74, grew up in tube world, studied electronics 2 years in high school, played guitar since 9 years old, studied music in college, was first Peavey/Ampeg/Marshall/Fender factory authorized service center for four years in South Florida. What you said is true. I coudl fill pages of talk and advice. Tube amps have been reduced in power except a few. Power supply capacitors can go bad over time, tubes become microphonic from being banged around with careless moving. Tube amps have tone and bottom end. Digital can be subject to voltage surges, most digital amps have little to no bottom end unless you are a metal player which usually want roaring bottom end, some digital amps have bottom end. The boutique amps now with 5-20 watts are overpriced because they are made in limited quantities, have to be miked. Having a mllion sounds in a digital amp with no bottom end is moronic and there are plenty because they are selling sounds not real tone. Yes, the markets are brutal, if you want to stay in business you have to downsize and change. Most amps are made in China or countries where labor is cheaper for corporate reasons. Todays factory workforce is not what it was in the 50', 60', 70's. Good luthiers are hard to find, it requires creative talent, tedious stick to it work ethics, dedication. They have to get paid. Countries with low labor can create knockoffs of American products and many are high grade for lower prices than American companies can market for given their high overhead. Years ago 60's & 70's the demand was hogh for big amps, 2x12's 4x12's double stacks, etc. Prices were low but musicians went crazy along with studio engineers in recording to create different sounds before the pedal craze and digital modeling hit markets. The cost of building tube amps is very high. Lower volume means higher prices for parts, assembly labor, advertising, insurance, keeping operating capital high enough to pay employees and costs and when markets dip or competition gets higher, you want to have enough to keep the lights on. I remember going to a music store in the early 60's, seeing a Les Paul Custom white SG body with 3 pickups. They were about $650.00. Builds on rhe guitars were near as perfect as humanly possible, low action, quality builds, lifetime guitars. Costs were low, skill was high, you got a lot for rhe money. Today, that same guitar may be $6,500 to $7,500 or more because that is what it costs today to get the same quality. I always wanted an L5C. It takes a master luthier 1 year to make that guitar. He has to get paid, A/C is on, insurance, prestocked woods in dryer rooms, assembly line costs and maintenance, paint equipment and painters, wiring crews, fret installers, engineers, planners, parts aquisition people, ,etc. Ir costs money. The L5C today is probably around $14,500 guessing. You lose money on that guitar to make it when you subtract costs and losses, equipment maintenance, overhead, etc, it all is expensive. I am amazed today that many of the old American names are still in existance. Wirhout really smart business minded operators, planners, marketers, designers able to woek as a team the ship can sink quickly and I have seen many go by the wayside. They made good products but something was missing in the formula of operations and with radical market and sales swings, things go south quickly. Fender, Gibson, Rickenbacher, are a few of the most copied guitars. Running a factory is difficult and competion, market swings and knowing when to market new products can be a nightmare. Investing in making, advertising, stocking a million retail stores, shipping costs with damaged in shipping always a headache- if the market changes and the product doesn't sell- it can be a hard hit to the company's bottom line and image. Today cosmetics is a big seller. Competion has lots of cosmetics and eye candy. Original designs such as Fender and Gibson have to pay a lot to attorneys that fight knockoff challenges constantly or lose their market. It requires a lot of work to make and sell good instruments. Maintaining consistent quality is also difficult and costly. Many tubes are being substituted today and the amps sound can be affected. I have a Fender Super Twin I bought new in the 70's. The two preamp tubes were 7025's and had higher gain. They are hard to find and using 12AX7's will work but there is a difference in sound and gain. Tubes are costly to manufacture, mica insulators are getting expensive and harder to get and purchase. Originally, for many years Magnavox built most of the tubes in the US in their Greenville, Tennessee plant. They had 23 acres under one roof. They stamped RCA, Fender, Sylvania, GE, etc. on the tubes and shipped them to the manufacturers. Ampeg had two 600 foot long assembly lines at that facility. One line was cabinets the other line built and wired amps. By the late 1970's, Ampeg started building hybrid amps and got a lot of faulty components in the preamp sections and amps were shutting down and had to have warranty replacements of bad components. It hurt their sales. SVT bass amps were amazing at 300 real watts. V4 guitar amps were good but again had some faulty circuit problems. Fender amps were always reliable and many players loved them. Being upside down, many Fender amps over time developed spitting resistors from heat cycles but could be found and changed. It is hard to say how long tube amps will live but costs keep going up. I was selling new 6L6 tubes for $5.50 in the mid to late 70's, now they are $25 to $30 and climbing. Three to 5 years from now they could double in price do to several factors. They were amazing creations but may see obsolescence becaue of costs and reduced parts availability. Tungsten filaments, mica and internal element quality can vary. Shorted output tubes can be death for a tube amp. Blown power and output transformers. I had seen and repaired SVT bass amps that went into meltdown and start on fire. Those amps were running about 650VDC on the plates and when a short from wornout output tubes happened the lights could be dimming. They had serious power and power supplies. Well, I could talk for hours but I will stop now and thanks for the good article. These are things young players need to think about as parts obsolescence and having an amp that doesn't work and no more parts. Same with car electronics, manufacturers abandon production after a few years and you are stuck with no spare parts from penny pinching lean manufacturing techniques. They only have parts for what was on the assembly line. Sad but true.
Thank you so much for sharing your story. I enjoyed reading that. Manufacturing is a tough, risky business and very exposed to external factors. That is why innovation is important. Not everything can be as it was and on some level we have to be open to embrace change. I hope there is a place for amps for the foreseeable future. Things can be cyclical but maybe the taste for real amps will grow again as more players discover guitar because of easily accessible tech. We can hope!!
1st and most important ," keep it simple". A player will spend too much precious time trying to find a sound they can use instead of actually using this time to practice and listen to music. Dropping/ travelling and wiring the modellers will cause them to malfunction, the player ends up depending on a modeller to generate a "unique" effect and when they go wrong you will end up throwing them out of the window. I did like a small combo that Fender experimented with a "Super-Champ x2 , a valve amp and programable digital pre-amp modeller, it took me 2 years to get it to sound usable( ( New speaker, hours of tweeking) now I can't do without this little "Hybrid" which I almost sold. Stick to basic designs for an amp and get pedals which at-least are replaceable and the feel a good valve amp gives the player really is impossible to emulate digitally, it's just too special . These modellers are useful but in essence they are toys to have fun with. I suppose if you have never experienced even a 5 watt valve amp played clean and with a biit of volume you probably would'nt know why they still build valves. Better a small 15watt 10" portable combo with a modest pedal board will always beat any modeller just for the feel.
Great advice...players can get weighed down under too much choice...and these are tones they don't actually create...thanks for chiming in!
Interesting observations and you are spot on in regards to the life cycle of digital products. I think we have a lot more options. The sweet spot for home studios I think is guitar->pedal board/effects unit->tube amp->cab & mikes simulator device->computer (daw)
All of my analog stuff from the 80s and early 90s still works, and in most cases, has increased in value. That said, these days I mostly just use my little Katana 50 and a laptop because they are so convenient. Unfortunately, both the Katana amp and the laptop PC are basically disposable items these days and retain almost no value.
That pretty much nails the differences....
Thanks for making this video. I started out with a Line6 Pod as a kid, then much later got a Kemper. I only just finally got a tube amp, and the VHX actually really appealed to me with its built-in effects, cab emulation, cabless operation capability, and ability to save settings while still being a 'for-realsies' tube pre and power amp. Since I came *from* the modeling world for all my playing history, the digital features felt more comforting to me, and I felt like I could probably be more successful recording with it than something like your JCM 900. While I LOVE my VHX, I think it would have been maybe a better idea to go with a Herbert and a load box (for a similar total price!). Then I could explore other tube amp options in the future without buying the same digital capabilities over and over again.
My pleasure. The POD was also my first digital :amp" though I already had my Marshall then. I'm curious about the VHX. Is the digital part of the amp easily bypassed? I'm sure if it ever wen wrong the rest of the amp would function as a normal amp but I'm curious about that part.
Sure, you can just not put effects on it when you use it. I don't know if there's a signal path it always goes through that would be broken if the digital board went bad, but from what I can tell that part is discrete and could be replaced. However, if they ended up not making that part anymore you'd be outta luck. So ultimately, it might be better to get something more purely analog and use a separate digital unit for the maximum flexibility and future proofing. That said - I'd be willing to bet the smaller board mounted components will long outlast the big giant caps and stuff, let alone the tubes. I've decided to not worry about it and just make the best music I can with it :)
I can certainly agree with the voiced concerns about all the hybrid digital-tube amps. I keep the two almost entirely separate. All my amps are hand-wired and fairly simple circuits. I leave the digital magic to pedals (relatively cheap and easy to sell) and computers (constantly replacing/upgrading anyways for all aspects of their use, not just for music).
Good strategy. I’m seriously giving thought to flipping my hybrid amps to something potentially more reliable.
Thanks =) Great topic and video, BTW!
One hybrid approach I enjoy is combining one or more hand-wired tube preamps with power amp modeling (with real cab or with speaker sim/IR). That way I reduce the weight and expenses of the tube amp power section, and I am in the ballpark on tone and feel. I don't play live anymore, but it has been fun around the house. The downside, of course is the inability to save settings for quick recall. Even with amp sims, I use a Sarno Revelation as my guitar DI instead of my interface Hi-Z input. @@LonelyRocker
I’ve always treated guitars and amps like cars, get a good used one that’s maybe a year or so old, and let someone else pay for the depreciation.
I used digital technology in the 90's (Peavey Tubefex). By 2004 the two units I have malfunctioned (within the wafer layers(pre-CPU era)) so now I have 2 boat anchor rackmounts.
Gone to Tube amps and pedals from then on, lesson learnt.
Now you're talking. Hard lesson learned but you are on a good path now :)
I love my tube amps. But I also enjoy my Helix which I use into tube power, used as a preamp into real cabs. Which can sound and feel really good. I think there can be a happy medium.
100%. I do that in my studio with real amps, fractal and Helix. But I know my amps will be here well past these modelers...maybe even longer than me! :)
Stuff like tonex, Kemper profile players will need external fx, midi control ect.. add that all up, you could buy a great amp that keeps its value much better. One of the best options is to use modelers for fx and
a real tube amp. Just my opinion.
Precisely what I'm doing here in my studio and lots of content coming around that...stay tuned!
Kemper player does have a good amount of effects included
If somebody only needs reverb, Tonex is perfect
Well I also have to use both. I like Marshall JMC with a Helix for effects, but take a look at the Mezzabarba amplification. Now that's a bad boy.
I do that too...great workflow..especially in the studio. OOOOOOh...I have my eyes on a Mezza..maybe they will notice my channel :)
1. I like to stand when playing. There is too much time spent sitting with digital, a lot of that time spent learning.
2. I think of tube amps like I think of cars. New ones are better in many ways, but old ones generate more love.
I enjoy playing a tube amp while standing. I hate sitting in front of a computer monitor or studying a manual. Repair and modification are other tube advantages. I play at home, so carrying a tube amp is not a problem, for me. I have a Splawn Quick Rod 50 arriving any day now, to go with my six others. I wouldn't mind fiddling with a Fractal, though (emphasis on fiddling).
Awesome points! Love the car analogy. I use my Fractal with my real amps for recording. It’s an awesome combo.
This is one of the reasons I bought a Helix. I had a Digitech 2112 and when the screen went dead after 20 years, they didn’t make components anymore. I figured that if I was gonna stay in the digital world, it would behoove me to buy a product from a company with some staying power. Line 6 has been around since the 90’s and what’s more is that they’re now owned by Yamaha, which of course is gigantic and well established. I wound up wearing out the joystick on my Helix because I was a dumbass and didn’t use HX edit. I had to get it fixed. Luckily, because of the ubiquity of Yamaha repair shops, it wasn’t super difficult to get it done. It sounds great and doesn’t everything I need a rig to do.
Line 6 products have shown to be quite resilient and having the network Yamaha has been able to provide certainly helped to build longevity for their products. There are so many of those products out there I think it will be in Yamaha's best interest to continue supporting those products even when they introduce new ones...especially their flagship products like the Helix...
Those digital components in the newer "tube/digital" amps are not going to be "local shop" available components either.
That is precisely my point!
Lot of dinosaurs here, I'm one too, so go easy on the flames.
But I'm also a hybrid, I have always had my first Fender Princeton that everyone laughed at back in the day, "get a stack" was the mantra. Now they're gold. But I also bought a Roland JC-120 for loud projection of my pedals, SG, etc. It's super clean and pushed pedals very consistently. I also have a 100W Peavey rig that's great fun, but less consistent, I've had tubes go bad and speakers. The Roland just works, never changes. Bright and clear. But I'm a folkadelic rhythm and prog player mainly and maybe if i were a shredder I would lean harder on tubes. But my Roland has never needed to visit the shop. My Fender and Peavey both have several times.
Regarding the planned obscelescence of the digital devices, dead on Sir. Plugins, PCs, software anything is outdated as soon as it's installed. Every time you boot you risk entering update hell and wasting hours just getting things working. With fixed hardware, things are much better. But. If it has any custom chips in it, we're at the mercy of those firms too. I own ableton and FL Studio, but I'm done with the trendy virtual stuff. I like the Spark, got one and they're previous PG amp head virtual amp, works great, but no longer supported. $500 new, now with maybe half? What's the point? The big stacks are great fun to play, but not to lug around. And they're kind of two or three truck ponies. If you're a working cover band, like most semi-pro musicians, you usually need something like a Katana that can play a lot of styles, or a modeler or multi-fx into the mixer. It's just too much work liugging big amps around for low paying gigs. The public doesn't care what you play.
The big win for all of this is choice. Digital gear is easier to acquire and can satisfy needs across a wider user base but doesn't retain it's value. If you still want a tube amp, if you acquire a well built one you can enjoy it for a long time. And in my case, a hybrid solution serves me very well for recording. Good times to be a guitarist.
Great discussion, and I’m with you. I don’t like this new hybridization trend of combining digital tech with tube amps. Mainly from a maintenance perspective. I want to keep my tube amps simple, so the repairs and maintenance are less expensive. 😆
I'm with you. In fact after all this I think I've decided to move one of my hybrid amps while it's still in great condition and get something more pure...maybe a new amp on the channel soon!! :)
Great take. I'm all digital currently with a Boss Katana and a Pod Go. I've been looking at tube amps but would want all the convenience of my digital stuff (line out with cab/mic emulation).
After seeing this I think I'll steer away from any one tube amp that does it all. Modular all the way. Get a separate load box. Get a separate DI solution, etc
That's the way to go. And be weary of budget tube amps that are made with cheap PCBs. I combine real amps, load boxes and modelers in my studio with AMAZING results. But the tube amp you decide to get should be special and it will be a joy for many years to come...
Metallica recently stated in an article I read that 50% of the time they use their digital Marshall amps at live concerts. I've heard and played both tube and digital. I currently have a 100watt Marshall ½ Stack, 4 12's that's digital and kicks ass! I can play at 100% power for hours without blowing amp. And the sound with or without my floor monitor is flipping insanely awesome. It's truly up to the player.
Earned a sub simply because this is such an important topic that needs to be covered, and I would argue the economics of this industry need to be spoken about to musicians.
There's a reason this is called the music "business". Companies in this industry, especially established behemoths, have a mandate to sell product, not musical products. Our culture in North America has somehow accepted planned obsolescence as just the way things are, and many youtubers are aware of the issues you've discussed, and *continue to make money off of their audiences without raising these concerns*. It may be impolite, but considering the money at the stake + the ease at which people are taken advantage of, this needs to be combated.
Additionally, disposable gear is so unbelievably damaging to the environment, that if you consider yourself someone even remotely concerned about the planet we live on, an easier-to-service product with a long shelf life, built to last, is even more important.
Of course tubes break, but you just need to replace the tube, not the whole amplifier.
Support your local builder if you can. Save up a few extra bucks and get something that'll last you a life time. Carr, Pizzolato, TopHat, Hi-Tone, Germino etc. all make tremendous product made to last.
Thank you for the service to the musical community. Refreshing to hear real issues discussed in the Geartube universe
Thanks so much and thanks for sharing your thoughts. I really felt I had to say something. An amp has always been a special acquisition and I hate seeing them cheapened because modern tech desires “demand” it. It’s a mistake that will come back to haunt people in the future. I’ve embraced modelers for what they do but my amps are staying pure!
I know in 10 years i will still have my Marshall heads. I won’t have a quad cortex as good as it is.
Amen to that. You might be on QC #7 and still waiting for plugin support by then 😂😂😂😂
I have had (and still do) tube amps throughout the years. Drive pedals have gotten so good now that I've gone to building pedal boards (15 of them now) based around mini pedal board mounted amps.
I have five Moorer Baby Bomb 30s, a JOYO Bluejay, a TC Electronic BAM200, and a Seymour Duncan Power Stage 170.
I'd challenge anyone to blind A/B sound comparison challenge anytime.
It is truly a great time to be a guitar player. So many great options. I just think digital products should be digital and analog should be analog. No hybrids!
I personally think it depends on how critical the digital component is to the functionality of the tube amp as a whole. For instance, if the cab simulated outputs of the Revv amp went out, you could still use the power amp output and it pretty much becomes your conventional tube amp. The diezel amp is concerning, because you have a screen that’s needed to navigate the amp controls.
Lately I’ve been realizing that if you want to make investments in audio equipment that will last a long time and won’t depreciate in value, analog is the way to go.
I'm with you 100%. I actually use the speaker out of my REVV into a Suhr Reactive Load. I don't use the internal load anymore. Revv is a great brand and I do believe the DI component is independant of the amp circuit. But my HK is all tech and PCBs. I may need to think about flipping that one now while it's still in great shape ;)
I'll preface my opinion with. being of the age when I could have purchased used kalamazoo Gibsons for $50 LP Jr, $75-100 SG, LP for 125-250 depending on the model, etc. Tube amps had the maintenance issues, were generally heavier but the tone was set the standard.
now affordable tube amps are less repair friendly with printed boards unless you can afford hand wired, though repairable and if your inclined you can learn to do may repairs. the plethora of effects is amazing as there are more distortion pedals available now than practically the total from all manufacturers put together in the early '80's.
I prefer an amp that will last, has the benchmark sound that all were based on and use individual pedals. If one pedal quits, 1 pedal is relatively cheap to replace, even a multi effects unit. I don't think tubes are going anywhere soon.
I do still use a little Yamaha THR amp which sounds great for what it is, I did have an SS amp with digital effects at one time, it last for about 1 year of regular use before a couple parts went, I repaired and sold it.
You make good points about the current units that are all digital, if phased out or they break that's likely it, in the trash(electronics recycling).
I'll stick with what I have(I also no longer play out) which is another factor in my choices.
Whats great is we have choices. And with all of those choices we just need to be aware of what we are buying. We can't always buy for the future. Sometimes we need solutions for now. Enjoy what you've got and have fun playing music!
Tube amps vs solid state is kind of like the quartz crisis in watches, if you know about that. There is a trend of all of these cheap easy to manufacture by the numbers devices but at the end of the day there is a core tube market that will always remain.
Yes, great reference. The key is distinguishing well manufactured products verses cheaper substitutes....Cheap PCB amps will crap out before digital amps ;)
Yes, but that market is very small, and likely getting smaller every day, with us Boomers aging out of playing with arthritis and other issues.
This is one of the reasons I love companies like Suhr. They are taking inspiration from classic designs and improving upon the core circuitry while retaining serviceability. I'm a Tonex user, but the Bella is on my bucket list not only because it sounds great, but because anyone with a soldering iron and a meter could fix it in the rare situation that it were to go down.
I LOOOVVVEEEEE Suhr. I have a Classic T Deluxe Limited Edition. The craftsmanship in that guitar is stunning. And the Suhr Reactive Load handles all of my amp DI recording. Next I need a Suhr amp for sure...hope you get yours! BTW...TONEX is great. I cover a lot of TONEX on this channel too....in fact I have a TONEX video on the schedule :)
Im with you on only analog tube amps. I always consider the amp as parts, can I build a tube amp out of its parts? So if the tech dies, does it still have value!
Good way to look at it. Digital has its place on its own...but amps need to be amps and they will keep giving us joy for many years to come...
I’ve found that most guitarists are not even familiar with the number of great non-modeling solid state amps out there. The standard answer most guitarists I’ve met give for solid state amps is Quilter, Roland JC120, and the Peavey Bandit. Solid state amps like the 80’s series Marshall Lead 100 Mosfet (and the well known Lead 12), the fairly new (last 11 years or so) AMT Stonehead SH-50-4, the older Pearce G2r, Gallien Krueger 250ML and RL, Ampeg VH140c, Marshall 8100 Valvestate like Billy Gibbons used for awhile and groups in the 90’s like Prong, Death, Static X, Meshuggah, and Mudvayne, Hughes & Kettner Black Spirit 200, the well liked Orange Crush Pro CR120 and newer Super Crush 100, the newer HiWatt Crunch series like the Crunch 150r and 350r, the brand new Laney Lead Top and Dual Top amps, the well liked Randall RG, EG amps - these are all relatively inexpensive used and even new.
Of course lots of people love the Quilters too, and the Peavey Transtube bandit and the Transtube Supreme head are all good too and the 70’s solid states are even still great (400 series, 260 series) and can even get Plexi-like sounds (check out Johan Segeborn demoing a 400). The list of good solid state amps is actually quite big but most are unaware or played some horrible Peavey from the 80’s with the saturation knob or Crate or Gorilla and think all solid states are like those.
My AMT Stonehead SH-50-4 I actually prefer over my Bogner Atma all tube amp. Best solid state I’ve ever played and it’s around $700 new. They make a rack mount 100w version too. I like digital modeling and own some modelers, but simple analog solid state non-modeling amps last a long time if you get some quality ones and amp techs can still work on them easy enough. Hybrid amps are still great too. I love my Marshall 3203 Artist - that solid state 80’s equivalent of a JCM800 series preamp and a 30 watt EL34 power section. Slayer used them for awhile before the regular JCM800’s - lots of bands did and they fit perfect on a Marshall 1965 series 410 with the G10L-35’s that came with them in the 80’s. I have tube amps too, but I don’t always reach for them and could run out of tubes tomorrow and not be phased at all. I actually haven’t turned on my 50 watt Plexi clone since buying a Lion 68 digital modeling pedal too, so very happy with some digital modeling, tube amps, solid state amps, and analog modeling. I like it all because I kept an open mind about technology used to get my sounds.
Also analog modeling is quite a great sound and I prefer it to most digital modeling. Main rig is a Black Widow Audio Designs MGP-1A Analog Modeling Preamp that uses real tubes (4x Tung Sol 12ax7’s ), real analog circuits, and Venum modeling from Black Widow Audio Designs. 18 preamp models/channels of some of the best amps ever made. I use an Axiom Effects PAE-1 Power Amp Emulator with it. All analog pedal with some of the very best tube power amp emulation I’ve ever heard or felt playing. Really dynamic response and controls for negative feedback, Bias, PI Gain, power tube type, rectifier tube (or SS rectifier) type, switch for cathode bias/fixed bias, switch for push-pull/single-ended operation, Master output and Power knob for headroom in 5w to 100w settings, internal flyback voltage control, internal dip switches for impedance setting - analog modeling the tube power amp. I actually replaced two real tube power amps (EL34 and 6V6) and two attenuators with two PAE-1 pedals last year. Between the MGP-1A and the PAE-1, no digital modeler I’ve heard can touch the realism of the modeling. So tube vs digital modeling may be seen as the only choices but really there are so much more if you look. I do prefer real cabs live and IR’s for recording or mix of real cabs and Cab Sims for live playing.
No doubt...there are great alternatives...thanks for sharing your "GUIDE"
I have a Fractal AX8 I'm trying to sell and it ain't easy, I'm considering buying a real amp for the reasons you exposed in your video. If I buy an FM9 Turbo MKII now for $2,000, how long before it gets obsolete? When it does one has to practically give it away.. It's a bit out of control
Unfortunately that's the cycle of digital gear. Get as much use out of it as you can. The fractal stuff is well built so as long as it's taken care of it should still work beyond its firmware support. But with digital nothing is guaranteed...
My helix LT that I bought in 2017 new sells used for more than I pad new. At least for now anyway.
I wouldn't bank on that....maybe you got a great deal when you bought it. Great unit, don't get me wrong. I have a Helix here...but it's value will plummet as soon as they release an updated model...just enjoy it...it's a great device...
@@LonelyRocker nope, in Uk new it was £600 it’s now on average £999 on eBay averaging £700,not selling anyway 😁going back to an amp/cab and pedals after being digital for 20years + my Lea Paul and helix don’t play nice the buzz from the LP is horrendous, it’s great a and quiet through amps all other guitars are quiet through helix
I suspect the new version of the FM9 will just have the larger scribble strips that have made it to all their other floor devices. I bet there are no other changes.
People still spend a premium on used models of FAS devices that have fallen out of support and they tend to retain their value over time compared to their competitors.
The new firmware 6.0 on the FM9, currently in Beta, is amazing! It is already out on the AxeFX III. Best modeled plate and spring verbs you can get. Gapless switching and lots of improvements to the modeling are amazing. The feel and gap between the FAS models compared to the real counterparts continues to shrink.
If your benchmark for feel and sound is recording with the physical cabinet in another room you literally can’t tell the difference. The only real difference is if you are standing in front of the cab. Being able to set speaker impedance curve and use a physical power amp to a physical Cab you can completely recreate the feel and sound of the tube amp in the room.
I still love physical Amps and have some on my list to acquire but I don’t need to for any reason. It is strictly a want. You’ll see fewer and fewer physical amps as they continue to increase in price. If I’m spending $3000+ for a quality Amp I’d honestly rather put my money into a PRS Guitar. Especially as more and more venues move to silent stages. Again, if you put your back line off-stage, perhaps in a box mic’d somewhere there is no longer a difference in feel or sound to a FAS device.
For me modelers are tools that can provide value if you make money using them. So best to monetrize them while you can because they are not long term investments. But they can bring great short term value if you can capitalize on that like savings in touring costs, added features in your studio etc...But good amps are forever. To me that's the biggest difference...
My days in a band are over after many years and I'm 63 now. Still have a few Vox AC30TBXs I'm trying to sell. Damn, that's hard find someone who want to buy them. I'm playing quite a bit in my home studio but it's all digital now and frankly I love it. Would I use digital if I was still gigging? I doubt that but I also understand stage volume is an issue these days so eventually live music will suffer a bit from this too. You often see drum kits with plexi shields surrounding the kits and during my final years playing live I used plexis also for my amps just to be able to turn them up. But in a digital world we need to get used to wedges or in-ears. And you can't really say they all sound that good. Interesting topic for sure.
The world has changed for sure. Both modelers and amps still have their place. I have both because I want to experience everything. With DI connectivity and attenuators you can still enjoy tube amps at lower volumes. And good amps will last for a long time while digital gear will age out....that's the reality today.
Drummers are the bane of us guitar players. The heavy-handed agressive stick technique that drummers prefer causes us guitar players to turn it up louder than we might prefer (and louder than many audiences like). Even an unmiked drum kit can be exceedingly loud, making everyone in the band turn up (including the PA system).
I reckon you missed loudness. Most folk can't play a tube amp full volume at home, even with a Two Notes device. With a multi FX, just stick your earphones on and you're good to go - without getting divorced/evicted :)
I reckon you didn't get far in the video as I wasn't arguing the modeler vs amp thing. I was talking about something completely different ;)
@@LonelyRocker - you seemed to be arguing strengths & weaknesses of both devices imo. It's hard to see how it doesn't become apples vs oranges
My main point was amps having digital tech inside...I used modelers as an example of how digital products can become obsolete and I didn't want that tech inside a tube amp...it's risky....
@@LonelyRocker - Dunno whether they still do it, but one company places red hot valves on top of mother boards - which is nuts imo. I take your point about digital preamps though - unfortunately that ship's sailed - can anyone afford a totally valve amp these days? ...and even if they could there's reliability issues. John Cordy tried to gig with a valve amp last year and hit a world of problems with breakdowns.
1st, historically there always has been either a third party or the original manufacturer(like the factory contracted) that will keep these circuit-boards on hand for products like keyboards and other music gear, if you are buying what is considered on of the major brands and sold a lot of these units then you will probably be able to buy those parts for a decently while even if the company goes bust, as longt as there remains a demand for them.
2nd, if the shift to digital/solid state is a threat to rube amp manufacturers the threat remains and will remain at the pre-amp/effects level of sound production, speakers and power amps will do fine because a set of studio monitors aren't going to be more attractive then a 4x12 for jamming and practice, they sound better in that case, and tube power does sound a little better then solid state.
I'd conclude by sayin that tube amp manufacturers should consider a line of platform amps, a nice tube power amp with just a presence and eq, something like everything after the return only heads. this would let someone like me buy a 5/50/100 watt power head for substantially lower price then if i wanted to get a Marshall head and only use the return on it. I have a quilter microblock 45 on my pedal-board and if i need it i have a valvestate 100 watt head. I would prefer to have a tube head with a presence and volume, maybe a 200 watt one for the headroom.
A few people have suggested amp companies should focus on good power amps. I'd prefer they do that than embed digital tech inside of their amps....
@@LonelyRocker yeah, it's like they're selling newb gear to premium customers.
i love my quad cortex
It has its fans...no doubt. I enjoy mu modelers too...but amps to me are special....
Just like almost every single ss amp ever made the digital modelers are going to last forever without ANY maintenance. While i see your point with tube amp manufacturers combining technologies with digital aspects,(which is a terrible idea) these modelers will never need maintenance. They will never need to go to a repairman. Even if something does happen to one of these modelers within its lifespan you will be able to buy another one for a small portion of the cost of the tube amps that seem to just keep going up in value. Modelers have been doubley accepted, you said it yourself. With that being said they are going nowhere. I for one love both tube amps and modelers. We have needed, for a long time, something to balance the ridiculous markup universe and im so very greatful even it is going to take some time. Its already started.
I'm with you. I enjoy both also. Digital tech has allowed me to build a great home studio. But Digital products fail. I have had a couple go down without warning and I couldn't fix them. And my main point was simply not liking digital tech inside a tube amp...which you agree. I think we agree!! ;-)
That's why I leave my precious Tube amps at home and bring my cheap Tonex with a few pedals to a gig. They sound good with the right captures and a good monitor system, okay you miss the tube amp feeling, but that is something you have to get used to. The audience will not hear the difference. If it breaks , that's sad, but it is replaceable for not too much money. We live in a throwaway society and that's a shame !!! New law regulations in our city commands that we are not allowed to play louder then 95db . If a pub owner gets caught they take his permission to organize live music and if they measure 96db it's goodbye permission....So every pub holder is buying a calibrated limiter and put it on their PA systems. A tube amp at 95 db sounds dull, nowhere near its sweet spot, and has no advantage in comparison with a modeler with an FRFR. A lot of cities are forced to go in a other direction because of these law restrictions. You'll see more and more silent stages and more and more proffesional artists are playing with in-ears and no amps anymore. A few weeks ago I saw Mateus Asato and Guthrie Govan with a Kemper and in-ears...They bring their USB stick and load it into the Kemper and off they go. If you see what the costs of new tubes are then you're gonna think twice. Electro Harmonix exports less Tubes due to the export ban of Mr.Putin. I think Tube amps will be more of a studio thing and for playing at home with loadboxes and such. That whole hybrid amp thing with digital stuff and tubes is temporary IMHO, it's a trend. I would never buy that. The good old times are gone unfortunally.
As a venue audio tech, I welcome and love quiet stages.
The less stage volume, the better I can make your band sound to the audience
@@jsalvatori I agree with that. Going digital an advantage for a audio engineer. But when I perform with my own punk rock band at a larger stage I prefer the raw organic punchy tube amp sound. It's a feel thing. When I perform with my blues band my Fender Super Reverb has much more dynamic range which is important for my guitar playing because I work a lot with my guitar volume knob.When I play with a cover band in a pub with a lot of different sounds I prefer digital and Tonex gives me that.
@@marcohermans3207 with the live amps there are tricks to help. Side wash instead of pointing the amp straight at the crowd.
Let us throw a packing blanket over it. Angle it up so you're using it like a monitor. Etc.
The louder the audience hears your amp, the harder I have to push everything else to get it balanced, and at some point I stop trying because it's dangerous to the crowd, and to me. I wear hearing protection when I go to shows, but I can't when I'm mixing. So my shows are kept to a safe volume based on duration.
@@jsalvatori , we use these clearsonic amp shields to protect the audience in the front rows going deaf. Our soundguys know what they are doing . We tried the new Fender Tonemaster Super Reverbs at our blues shows but there was something missing in the depth and the organic nature of these modeling amps at stage volume. We get complaints from our audience so we went back to the tube Super Reverbs. Between a Tube amp and a guitar player is a connection, that is still missing from their digital counterparts but I have to say that it's becoming better and better with every generation of these digital devices.
I've been playing for 50 years and gigging for 40. I've seen and used a half-century of guitar tech. My 2 cents: KISS (not the band), keep it simple, stupid. Find a guitar and an amp that works for you, add minimal effects, and concentrate on developing YOUR sound and technique.
Great advice!
The main problem with modeling equipment is that it is not aware of the sound reproduction equipment (actual amp/cab or PA) and the room it is being used in. To solve this problem, it would be necessary to use a high-quality reproduction system and perform a room calibration. Done wrong, modeling is only a fancy pedal.
I agree. The simple relationship of a guitar and an amp is so reactive where a modeler is predefined.
My fender Mustang is an example. You see in video games that don't keep servers online, or how UPlay lost all the data for Ubisoft games...anything that has an app has a limited lifespan as new versions of the os make them redundant. If I go buy a 68 Traynor hand wired amp, it can be rebuilt with parts off a shelf. I can not go fix my mustang from 2000s if it has software issues. I had a Digitech RP50 that acted up and basically became a brick as it was more to repair than to buy a newer better unit.
Bang on! Digital stuff can be great but your comment highlights the risks and limitations. Max it out while it works! :)
I mean what about digtal syths? They are in the same place as tube amps not modulers... Although why buy a moduler over an amp sim? Where as Digtal syths will also sound different to remakes and softwear synths... Which I think a listern can tell especly on video and can care but most as you've said only care if they sound good in the first place not what they are.
This is a very valid argument. On this channel my focus is guitar and related gear. I also think this argument is relative to other areas as well. What about drums? That's a huge one too. As a guitar player I love tube amps so I made this video...but you could do a whole series about electric pianos to synths to any instrument a synth replicates. That would be an interesting video!
@@LonelyRocker True and my point wasn't why didn't you cover it but more that modler didn't have to have limited lives because didtal syths live long lives and have maintained values... Speaking of who said your just a guitar channel anyway?
No I totally got it! Well if you've known my channel for a while I used to be a bit broader "Home studio" channel but niched down to guitar related topics about 2 years ago. Though you will still see the occasional studio gear video like my DAW Controllers and things like that...so maybe 99% guitar related ;)
Interesting topic, but in my experience there is no right or wrong because at the end of the day you’re supposed to be making music and whatever amp you choose just has to sound good and the person playing it has to be able to play, whether a amp has a tube or not won’t matter, the purpose is still to make music, when you hear a great song it just sounds good to you and if it has a good guitar sound to you that’s what matters
Of course. I have embraced both digital and analogue tech and I love it all. It's the digital tech that makes my studio possible. Iw as just noting the potential longevity for certain gear over others. I wasn't trying to say one was better...it's all useful stuff!!
You dont even have to go as far as a digified amp, I recently had a two notes cab m break down on me. And I have regarded the two notes stuff as pretty much bomb proof so far. Not so much with their stomp boxes. Give it wmough of a rough handling and your jacks or power supply breaks down. It doesnt take batteries either. There goes your speaker sim solution for the evening.
Yep...that's an unfortunate reality. I have a Captor X that failed. This is not a reflection of the company. Their gear is great and they stand by and support their gear. But the merging of analog and digital has its limitations...
and you better learn to fix your own stuff as techs who feel comfortable to work on this digital stuff are only ever going to charge more. Otherwise youd have to send it to France lol@@LonelyRocker
;-)
A very valid topic of discussion.
I agree totally...Hybrid amps will not be serviceable forever. Any computer/digital tech is like that. Something you didn't mention is that there are trusted companies making not so great tube amps and pretty expensive. These are mass produced on thin circuit boards and typically have tube sockets mounted directly on these boards. These amps are what I call throw away. I had one of these (I assume you'd rather I not mention brand names) that lierally burned up on me. I had a new amp built in cabinet and used chassis. These amps will not last a lifetime like the old ones would. I realize this is a bit off topic, but worth mentioning I think. Just because it's a tube amp without digital features doesn't mean you have an amp that will last a lifetime.
Actually this is a great point and very valid in this discussion. In fact, a few have mentioned this and I am actually now considering selling one of my hybrid amps now while it's in good shape and flip it for a pure tube amp with less of that "green" stuff inside. Thanks for sharing your experience...
While I agree that the feel of the actual real amp in a room is different from a modeler, owning the actual tube amp can be a chore.
Had an Orange TH-30C, loved it.
But it was a nightmare to get it to gigs, big and heavy.
Had to repair it twice.
And it was too loud to use in the apartment. Ended up selling it.
I've never considered an amp a chore!! If you love amps, it's a small price to pay to maintain them. If you're open to other things, that's cool too...
Imagine if amp modeling had happened way back when the tweed Fender Deluxe was first produced, and that model was based on the intended level and settings of the day, that is, clean, avoiding distortion, since distortion was to be avoided by the original design parameters. Had the model been based on what the Deluxe was designed to do, the model would never have considered intentional distortion to be within the model, so no matter what one did with the amp based on the model, it would not distort because said distortion was not part of the model.
As we all know, the sound of a distorting tweed Deluxe is as iconic as the sound of a snare drum or the shape of a Stetson hat, and that distorted bloom of harmonics would never have been realized had players not taken the Deluxe beyond the design intention and established the distortion produced as an intentional characteristic.
Very good point. Analogue gear allowed players to experiment with the science of sound. There is no real tone without real amps..then and now...
@@LonelyRocker Even a modeller requires an amp if you want to hear any sound. There is no getting away from owning an amp as a guitarist.
I own many modellers and they are great for recording, but suck for jamming with my friends.
Very well said
I like my AC15 and pedals, but I get bored with it in half an hour and move back to my digital solutions going into cabs, or monitors, or earphones, or to my theater system, or bluetoothed to my outdoor sound system. I love pulling up millions of dollars worth of amps and effects within seconds and playing every genre of music you can imagine in a split-second. Tube amps are good for the touch responsiveness and emulating the same sounds and artists we've heard for over half a century. But they don't do enough for the modern musician or someone trying to create new music and sounds. I might buy some more tube amps in the future, but it's while knowing I'm paying exponentially more for a fraction of the features.
Try merging a real amp a modeler...best of both worlds. I love doing that!
I like the hybrid style like the Revv G20 so you have the sound and feel of a tube amp when you want it but you can plug in and use a quality DI.
I think these days that many players aren't thinking in terms of repairability. We have cell phones, TV's, laptops, game consoles and they all have an expected lifespan. Planned obsolescence. We have a whole generation raised in an era where we don't even have right to repair in many cases.
So the idea of a guitar amp as an investment or something to pass down or only needs repairs isn't even in the thinking. And then when the pros realize that you can get a consistent sound every night and carry a fraction of the gear while losing maybe 10% of the mojo it's a no brainier.
And once you step into the digital realm the diversity of sounds is amazing. People don't tend to want or buy expensive large tube amps when you can get something close enough for a fraction of the price. Why buy a 4k SLO when Neural makes a plugin for 100$? I'm sure the original is better but is it 3900$ better?
And you never have to repair it, replace tubes, worry about volume, fear it will get stolen or destroyed. I love my tube amps but it's hard to resist the combination of price, convenience and options.
Some very good points here but where we win is with choice. The definition of the word "value" has evolved when it comes to gear has radically changed. And the needs of players have evolved to reflect this change. But with choices players never had before it can bring solutions to a wider collection of guitar players. And with more guitar players, we all win....
@@LonelyRocker agreed. I love seeing a new generation of players emerge now
You are so right! Of course modern modelers can sound _REALLY_ great! No question about that, but all those little computers with its proprietary ICs and of course proprietary software on it can't be easily repaired. Often it can not be repaired AT ALL because manufacturer can't support them forever and they also depend on the modern IC market. Personally I would never buy a modeler for anything else except for quick studio sessions or situations in which weight is a concern. You can not develop a "relationship" with an isntrument which is a bunch of digital waste in near future. That is all due to the custom ICs and firmware... Not so much with "digital" ICs itself, since there are many which are produced over decades!
Thanks! I’m glad someone in the know agrees with my position. 😎😎😎
Great video I really enjoyed it. I couldn't agree with you more it's so important to build a product that's going to last. I'm definitely not a big fan of digital plugins or modeling. I'm proud that our amps are without circuit boards and built like a tank. For me it's extremely frustrating to spend good money on something that's going to fail or need repair in a short amount of time. That's why stereo tube amps are the best! 🎸
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it! We just really need to know what we are buying and have to avoid fads. I have found a place for modelers in my studio alongside my tube amps but I know they won't be forever. Your amps look awesome! Would love to try one sometime!
@@LonelyRocker Thank you very much! If you're ever up in Northern California just give me a call. We'd love to have you anytime!
You never know!!! Been a while since I was in California but I've been there many times....let's keep in touch. Can you email me? My addy is on my about page...
TBH we need more accessible/affordable tube power amps, or solid state power amps with power tube emulation, without a preamp attached. Not all of these modelers have power tube emulation, and not all of the ones that do have GOOD power tube emulation. Hughes & Kettener and Blackstar are prime examples of GOOD power tube sim, along with IR loaders that have power amp emulation (Mooer Radar, Joyo Cab Box) are great for use with PA systems or into a power amp to run through a cab. Guitar Fetish has a pedal that does nothing but clean boost your FX loop with either 6L6 or EL34 drive and voicing emulation (GFS Twin Clean Drive), and Ignite Amplification has a VST that even does this (TPA-1). These help digital and solid state products sound more life-like.
I think you’re right. Assisting modern tech with useful tools is far more in need than filling amps with digital tech. Great points.
@@LonelyRocker yup, a tube or solid state amp with digital works far better if you use a multi-FX pedal with a normal amp, either via 4 cable method or just putting the multi-FX in the FX loop outright if you already have pedals to put in front. Otherwise, if you want digital, go full digital. Get a Zoom or an FM3/FM9 or one of the Mooer GE units or the Headrush MX-5, maybe a MOD Dwarf or whatever, etc.The only thing that's useful for adding digital function to an analog tube or solid state amp is the XLR or 1/4" TRS balanced DI outs with digital IR's, because if that breaks, it's usually on a separate, printed circuit board using very little power connected via wire, so it isn't likely to take the rest of the amp with it unless there is an utter catastrophic issue via grounding short, which most amps and other circuitry are designed to avert these days for fire safety reasons.
It depends on the type of music one plays. I am an old school R&B player, I embrace newer technology, I have been playing guitar since the early 60s. At this point I am quite happy with my Tone King Imperial MK ll. It will probably be my last amp.
That's a great amp...I'm sure it serves you well...
What does he show @2:05 ?
Nice little budget modeler. I have a full video on it here: th-cam.com/video/kT40rD6wVSQ/w-d-xo.html
I believe that the amplifiers of the big brands assembled on PCBs are disappearing, while small companies that build quality handwired amplifiers are making their way.
I certainly hope so. If amps are going to remain distinguished from modelers it has to because they are built to last. Quick and cheap doesn’t cut it with amplifiers.
5:00 A new fm9 is coming in a couple of months?
The FM3 MKII was just released and the FM9 Turbo MKII will soon follow...
Thank you. Will be buying the Mk2 then. @@LonelyRocker
Smart take.
Thanks! :)
Cool video man! Interesting points for sure...
Thanks! Had to get it out ;)
I have played on Tube and solid state amps since the 60s. I even have a modeling amp now but I'll take my Classi 30 tube amp over all of them. Portable, sounds great and takes pedals well. I really don't need an amp that tries to imitate 30 other amps and cabinets. Probably the ultimate amp would be a Boss tube amp with the GT-100 multieffects built in.
I guess you have to really play tube amps to really love them. Modelers cheat. They are not amps. They are amps plus multi-effects. But together they can make magic :)
My pod go sounds like ass, and trying a fm9 is impossible. Guess I'll stick to my 6505+ and 5150 iii 6L6 stealth heads and mesa cabs
Love those amps! All you need!! My ENGL through the FM9 sounds dope though :)
I wonder where you see this trend. Cause the tubemeister and vhx are old news and afaik all popular brands still have fully analog flagships except for brands like ENGL whi always have had midi switching etc.
The only thing i can think of is practice amps and maybe fenders' tonemaster series and then maybe midi switcjing amps like hook and ENGL but tjose are quite basic midi systems that have existed for years.and they are more of an exception.
So yeah i don't see a trend.
Honestly, the biggest trend I see are amps that have built in DIs. And the way these are made are wildly different. Many companies have adopted Two Notes technology. I know those guys. Great people and I like their standalone tech but I don't want it inside of my amps because they rely on digital connectivity and it's proprietary. I think you'll see more amp companies integrating tech into their amps because they have to find ways to compete. But I don't think it bodes well for the longevity and FULL functionality of those products.
Diezel is doing this with their new VHX amp that concerns me.
Yeah. I would NOT invest in that amp....
@@LonelyRocker same here and it costs 1k over a regular Diezel tube amp. You can buy pedals or a modeler plus the VH4 amp for less.
The trend has been here and Your right on point! Take the Bogner Spider Valves, which were actually great if You take Your time with it! I saw that Diezel and thought Wow a touch screen version! I’m waiting for the tube amp that You can lock Your iPad into lol
Ha!! There has been gear designed to host iPads...what a waste of money. New iPad doesn't fit? Oh, can we interest you in our updated model? NAH!!!!!!
Hughes and Kettner Grandmeister 40. You can control with the iPad. It’s all tube.
I have one. He’s saying new. That amp has been out for a few years.
I am done buying tube amps due to maintenance and high costs and large space required. My next amp will be a Fractal Axe FX III.
Shame. Always room for at least one tube amp. I have amps a fractal and a helix and they all play really nice together :)
@@LonelyRocker true well I probably will sell one of my large cabs and amp not using to fund the modeler and another guitar. I will keep my Mesa and Mezzabarba tube amps.
Dude.... Its not about replacement parts. Its not about getting "the latest thing". Its about sounding good at low volume. How much did that house cost you?...ok... THATS the price of owning a JCM 900. Gotta have a place to turn it up. If marshall came out with an amp that sounded great at low volume... Id buy it in a heartbeat. But they didnt. They forced a guy like Thomas Blug do it
I did say it was about how it sounds and the audiences don't care. My point was the long term investment. I'm in a house with a family and I can't jack it up but I use load boxes and play my amps at reasonable volumes but I can dime them as hard as I want. Great way to record. Attenuators and Load boxes are pretty cheap. Anyone with an amp can add one of those and enjoy the benefits of their amps at lower volumes...
No gear will ever sound good at low volume. Not in person because of how our ears interact with speakers and pressure waves. A Vin 30 sounds good once the neighbours hear it. So unless you are using headphones on a modelling amp and no real speaker it won't sound good on low volume. Even a single watt is very loud with an efficient speaker.
Vin 30 with 1 watt is 100db...2 watts and it's 103db.
I tried black Star both 5 and 1 watt, sounds good but your speaker is not bedroom level. Don't blame Marshall for physics. Even the 1 watt Marshall's, which you can still buy can be very loud.
It occurs to me that many of the young guys may have never heard or even seen the physical models of these amps in person. So they won’t know what it sounds like in a room, they only know what a model sounds like in headphones or monitors. If that’s good or bad, I don’t know.
I guess it could be liberating because they won’t get obsessed with finding a VST that is an exact replica of a 5150 they never even seen in person. It’ll just be “Does it sounds cool?” Yes or no.
That's a GREAT point! It occurred to me many that argue for modelers clearly have never played through an amp but I never thought about it in those terms. they base their sound on what they ehar i headphones and not what the actual amps do...well played!
I surely prefer puristic tube amps. No modeling is going to give me the tube sag, the entire feel of playing just the rather new Orange OR30 I own since recently, for example. And it’s not even a responsive amp, but it forms the sound so beautifully and pure, I don’t think any modeling will ever give me this specific sensation. And not just that, add a 1960BX with stock Greenbacks for really amazing and very lively speaker breakup on top, which produces a random type of fuzz/distortion I never heard from any pedals or modeling yet, analog or digital. Pure bliss of the very special kind, you’ll never find this type of sound anywhere outside of physical tubes and physical speakers doing their job right.
I agree 100% on the purity of the relationship between a guitar and a real amp and I will always play through Amos for as long as I am able. But modelers have their place and do provide solutions to those that just can’t play through amps. But I hope a,ps are here for the long haul. Guitar wouldn’t be the same without them.
It is alarming how much software stuff are temporary and I don't think we realise the extent of it yet... App enabled gadgets are pretty cool now but it will become a nighmare... I had this issue this week when I took out a drone I bought 3 years ago. Brand new piece of hardware that has lost over 50% of its features because the app is not on the app store anymore... Developper need to pay to key their app up to date, but why would they do it if they won't make money for that product...business wise, its the logical outcome, but consumer wise, we are doomed. So like you said, software stuff are just not an investment. Glad I still have my old 5150.
Tell me about it...I have a Gimbal..same thing. They won't update the software to work on newer phones. They want you to buy a new gimbal...It works perfectly fine...app doesn't....terrible....
The main issue with tube amps is initial cost in most cases for home users, your JCM900 at home requires an attenuator, so buying that amp today is going to cost you, for discussion sake, 1000$, you have to add a good attenuator so 500$ more. You cannot play with headphones even after all that money, this is today's reality, a 100w tube amp in an apartment is just stupid. For 500$ you have a decent modeler that does it all. Consumerism has also caught up with guitar players things are not made to last and to be repairable now.
Very valid. And I wasn't suggesting real amps are a better solution for everyone. Listen, digital gear makes my studio possible. It wouldn't exist if it wasn't for digital products. But I know the digital gear and software will likely become obsolete. I spent over 2000 dollars on Waves plugins and I got tired of them asking me to re-up with their update plan every year so I said screw it. I updated my computer and none of those plugins work anymore unless I agree to pay another annual fee for plugins I already paid for. This is the worst of what digital gear offers. On the flip side..modelers have brought amp tones to players that might never had had the opportunity to play them. And that is a great thing. Just take care of that gear and hope you never need to repair it :)
It used to be guitarists complained about not being able to recreate the tone,now that they can create the tone the guitar players are now claiming it’s the “feel” what’s next,there gonna be claiming you can’t recreate the smell of tubes warming up and that’s the difference?
I'm guessing you haven't played tube amps much ;)
None of anyone's sound is going to mean a thing if anyone can get any sound they want at a click of a button. It used to be sweet to go to shows and see what gear people had, now it's just an amp modeling board. Yawn.
Yeah...as convenient as it is for the player, it sucks for us gear nerds who love checking out the gear....sad really...
I hate that about plugins! I've started investing in hardware for recording and mixing. I've got the plugins I couldn't live without but I'm trying to rely less on them and I think it sounds better too IMO. Like you said those plugins that you think you own might not work one day but hardware will never change.
It’s the risk of digital which is why I don’t want digital components in my tube amp.
How is it more affordable? The FM9 is $2k, then you need a power amp and a cab just to be able to approximate a tube amp so that you can jam in your room without being connected to your computer??? A lot of guitarists, myself included don't want to be tethered to a laptop or PC, they just want to plug in and play.
Great points. Cost is relative to need. Though many players do go to front of house with modelers so they can get but with just the one device. But ideally you at least need a cab if some sort to untether.