To me, shows an example of a massive problem in the bike industry- lack of precision and repeatability. You shouldn’t have to buy a $200 tool and take apart your $1000+ forks for them to work as they should. Big component manufacturers like SRAM have amazing engineers who I’m sure they pay very well. They should be able to figure this out so the consumer doesn’t have to take these steps. I’m glad there are companies that make tools to help these problems, but the problem shouldn’t exist in the first place.
Agreed. They can do better. I've had problems with my Maven Ultimate brakes having a wondering bite point. I ran into a SRAM marketing guy on the trail here and he confirmed my issue is common. I've taken all the extra steps to bleed them and the problem persists. With that said, I'm a fan of SRAM and their innovation and ease of maintenance, and I'll continue buying their parts here and there. They can do better, I agree.
SRAM spend a lot more on their marketing than their engineering unfortunately and where it really shows is in the quality control on anything with tight tolerances. Rattly bushings are also very common with their forks. The solution there is to also drop hundreds of dollars on a tool to hammer the bushing slightly further into the fork leg, which has a slight taper that tightens the bushings. Suspension fork durability and price to performance ratios have deteriorated massively from 20 years ago before Marzocchi bankrupted themselves, when their open bath oil fork with a coil and air assist to fine tune the spring rate would run buttery smooth for years with no servicing at all. The sad thing is part of what bankrupted Marzocchi was that most people who ran their forks didn't need to buy a new fork every couple of years, so they sold less than the manufacturers making unreliable but shiny junk.
@@EvansMTBSaga I’ve heard that the mavens have issues. Interestingly, it seems like the highest end of SRAM product lines seem to have the most issues. I love my GX group set. I’ve NEVER had an issue with it. But I have also have issues with my ZEB ultimate forks and Code R brakes when I had them. I’ve since switched to shimano on almost everything and Marzocchi forks and have had no issues. But I think that’s common for most brands and not just sram.
You want to remove the wipers to check the friction in the bushings accurately. Otherwise there’s a good risk of spreading the bushings out too much and causing excessive play between the upper tubes and the lowers. And for most users this would cause them the need to buy new lowers since most places don’t swap lower leg bushings.
And also on all RockShox forks, install a hub... Because the spacing of your actual hub also influences the friction... All rs forks wit no installed hub are "stiff", becaus the lowers are a bit to narrow, without a hub...
It's likely not recommended to most people to try at home because if you go too far and oversize just a tiny bit you will have rocking and knocking in the fork which can make it feel way way worse since the fork will now bind. The stanchions should NOT just fall down. The bushings need a slight amount of a press fit to ensure contact all the way around and the tiny amount of stick-tion they have because of this is not noticeable.
I live in Taiwan, working in the bicycle industry, but not for any suspension company. Both Rock Shox and Fox do sizing. To get best sensitivity, you can size them larger than what the factories do, but at the risk of play, especially long term. If you were riding in the early 2000s, you know what I am talking about.
yep. Also, many things are not taken into account for these demonstrations: a) you're not really loading the fork. In real life things will bend due to your weight and the head tube angle. b) don't the stanchions themselves burnish the bearing surfaces during a short break in period? c) in actual use the friction is hydrodynamic, since there are liquid lubricants involved and the bearing surfaces are quickly sliding along another. That's why your fork feels sticky after your bike stands still for a few days. But when it is actively cycling throughout its stroke, the coefficient of friction will drop MASSIVLY, a factor of 10-100.
@@DerDanachDenkende a) is something that applies on top and adds to the friction. unlike 'static' bushing friction it cant be decreased. b) no because the material springs back to some degree (as everything does). the burnishing die has to be oversize to compress the bushing material so that when it springs back it hugs the stanchion perfectly. c) I highly doubt there is actual hydrodynamic lubrication occuring as there is no significant lubrication gap (otherwise there would be play in the lowers). also the hydrodynamic lift, as in the stanchion gliding only on oil cannot happen, because of the rotational symmetry (and no play). Also I think there is not enough oil to keep the lubrication film 'alive'.
Totally agree with you. Back in 2011, I worked at a company specializing in suspension maintenance. When we replaced or refurbished the bushings, customers were always thrilled. Some would even ask, "Did you change my fork?" because the difference in performance was like night and day. I really hope to get this tool, as we used to do it all by hand, measuring with an axial play gauge, which was incredibly time-consuming.
Ohlins did this as part of a free upgrade service a couple years after they released the rxf. They found their bushing and seals were too tight and allowed for the mod free and incorporate it into new forks.
Just got this done at a local bike shop for my factory 38, really did help with the small bump compliance. Helps the fork to not just feel plush in the jank stuff
I'd suggest the best first step would be to remove the dust seals, and then check for optimum spacing of the fork through axle. Mass produced forks may easily have non parallel stanchions or lowers. You can use shims to pack out the hub if necessary. Once you've got that the best it can be, move on tot the burnishing (if till necessary). Otherwise to may be using the burnishing to just hide the real problem.
@@EvansMTBSaga the problem with most forks is that if the front wheel hub width isn't exactly matched to the fork seats, tightening the thru axle can cause extra friction, as can hubs that are over width which will require machining. Generally everything works fine for most people, but outlying out of tolerance cases can occur with some combinations. Even your burnished forks may behave differently with the wheel tightened in place.
I never comment on any youtube videos, but I have to on this one. In short, you did this wrong. You burnish with a Hub in the wheel, this is because when you ream the bushing, you want it against a known datum point (how the bike is ridden) you have sized the bushing to the tool, you might get lucky and this helps, or you go too far. The issue can commonly be with the lowers or the crown having incorrect tolerances bowing inwards creating stiction. Quite often it's a 0.25mm shim in the hub to have a properly functioning fork, it's not the bushings at all. $400 in tooling or a 2cent shim, worth checking first.
great video! it’s crazy how much difference just dialing in components makes. people might be scared off by the price of specialized tools, but that burnishing tool is a lot cheaper than a new fork and a lot more convenient than being without a bike for a month while waiting on a warranty job.
This is great! To get the lowers gliding down the uppers as you wanted, you need to install the front wheel, as the forks close down a bit when you tight the axle, and the forks are manufactured with that in mind, so they work better with the wheel on.
As a suspension service tech i do this every day to many forks. Its very important to know exactly what size burnisher to use in each case. It should be specific to each stanchion size and the film thickness of the oil used in the lowers for best performance. You can go too far for sure and new bushes will cost you a fair amount to replace. You should also lubricate the burnisher with a small amount of the lower leg oil intended for use. And make sure everything is super clean too. You dont want to scratch your burnisher or the bushes
Thanks for commenting! I just did it on another fork (brand new Zeb Select+). I installed the hubs (for lower leg alignment), removed the dust wipers, and checked the bushings. They were super smooth, I even felt the slightest amount of play. Is that normal?
Pretty crappy so many people having problems with brand new very expensive forks. Do people have to break oout the tool box to get their brand new car/truck/motorcycle/jetski/playdoh fuzzy pumper/Bigwheel to work like it oughta? No siree, they do not. Yeah, looking at you, rockshock
"To really dial this fork" you should have removed the seals as well. To how "deep" you need to go into the burnishing you should have install your front wheel. Because the hub is a "spacer" between the legs. Then you will see how easily slides the lower and if it reqs the next size to burnish. Other than that, mortal people won't spend a good used fork price to a tool. They have an other solution: shimming the front hub. There are shimming washers in 0,1, 0,2, 0,3, etc mm. Gut out the fork (yes, even the seals) try and error how many shims you need to add.
I remember, on the freeride/DH forums an engineer-minded rider built a set of these and, after a load of testing and demonstration, ended up 0roviding a service to rieers on the forum (for a fee) to do their fork bushings. Today we find commercially available tools. And yet still the manufacturers are providing forks that seem to require this treatment to work as advertised.
Ive suffered this i have a rockshox pike 2016 in a bin right now because I could not get the binding out of my bushings. your example of the issued where you showed the bike leaned over and binding extra was perfect. That's actually how I diagnosed it I just leaned the bike over and felt weather it was harder to telescope the fork from one side to the other.
I just spray a little gun oil on a shop napkin and rub on the stanchions. Then just compress the fork a few times. Makes a huge difference, but you have to do it every couple of rides. You should try this out on another bike fork you have that sticks and compare to the work you did in this video.
Man, this is what my 2013 Fox 34 needs. I have swapped the damper to an Avalanche damper, upgraded the air spring. I even converted the air spring to dual-air to get rid of one more seal. Nothing seems to work. Even running the damper with no oil feels like a rigid fork on brake bumps. It has been to 3 service shops and all said the bushings were fine. On my other bike I have a Formula 35, which I know they hand-pick the stanchion size that goes well with the bushings. Much better approach. But $162 is a bit steep (although the Avalanche damper was $450).
In a perfect world, we'd all send it back in hopes of them fixing the process. But I just wanna ride! So having no fork for however long the warranty process takes would be shooting myself in the foot
@@EvansMTBSaga that, and would they even take them back on warranty for this issue? I wasn’t aware so many others had this issue, but I have also experienced it. I do enjoy a lot of SRAM products, but I am deeply skeptical and cynical of most brands in this industry.
I've been doing my own fork service for over 2 decades and have Never had any issues with the Stanchions not being anything over than super smooth in n out of the Lowers...So....!!!!!😎
Definitely very easy! Without filming, it'd take maybe 30 minutes to do it. I forgot to mention in the video that the tool self aligns and centers itself
lowers and uppers may not be 100% parallel which can cause a ton of friction, some people use a shim between hub and fork or shave a smidgen off dropout to get 100% plushness
I've had the ZEB Ultimate for a year now. With the charger 3 cartridge it was way too stiff and had little small bump compliance shaking my hands to bits. I've opted to get the charger 3.1 upgrade in combination with SKF dust wipers and it made a noticeable difference. But overall I still feel like RS has some serious quality control issues and after 6 years trying to make it work, I'll definitely look into a different direction for my next Enduro bike.
I have found out, that this tool actually helps the fork get smoother. While i have been rounding my lower legs bushings I have used fork oil as a lubricate to ease the prosess.
I worked at bike suspension industry and the best way to do that is removing seals and try a little... and each leg you put in just one side... and still aways checking the play of each leg. Sometimes the difference of legs can be 0.05mm maybe more. So, if you fit a large tool in a tight leg you'll destroy your bushings
No more cast, lookin good my man!! That zeb is pretty sweet, I had to do this same junk to my bomber z2. You are a gentleman and a scholar for making this video.
The privious owner had this done it was cool to see what he was talking about exactly. My Sid forks are buttery soft and my hands no longer get numb on extra long rides (thats also valid).
Very cool video and one of the first I've seen on burnishing. It's much simpler than I though that's for sure.... question, is this a Charger 3 or 3.1 Zeb?
Good question! So from what I read, the charger 3 was over damped so they released the charger 3.1 and so far, I feel like it's severely under damped and the compression knobs basically do nothing. I still have to work through it, that's why I didn't say anything on video. I picked up a Zeb Select+ for another bike with a Charger 3, so we'll see if I like that one more
@@EvansMTBSaga Wondering if you have ever tried any of these aftermarket dampers, like the MRP lift? Also, great video... This bushing resizing is something I definitely am going to look into because my ZEB select feels exactly the same. That's actually why I was researching dampers, because I assumed that was the issue on the select
I have not tried aftermarket dampers. Funny enough, this is only the second time I've ever removed a damper. I didn't want to deal with the mess, I just assumed theyre all open bath. I didn't realize the Charger 3.1 was a closed damper, so I'll probably be more willing to mess with the damper now
@@EvansMTBSaga That's the reason I've never done a full for service myself too. I'll do a 50 hr but have always been reluctant to do anything beyond that.
I have done this with my zeb and it really is a night and day difference, I would say the difference I noticed from unsized bushings on fast chatter and braking bumps was almost as much of a difference as swapping from air to coil in the fork. If you're looking for absolute bump eating sensitivity you should consider trying out the Vorsprung smashpot. My zeb is coil swapped with burnished bushings and it is unreal the difference from back when I had an air spring and factory bushings. As an added benefit with a coil front and rear the bike feels so balanced and linear front and back. They also have a hydraulic bottom out built in to the coil assembly to engage and prevent bottom outs in the last 50mm of the forks travel. Love Vorsprung and getting my suspension dialed to a level above what factory components can generally offer.
I did this twice to my suntour, once over did it.... its not burnishing, rather its taking away materials, though very small amount... if u over do it... the stanchion can flex tiny bit back and forth specially under braking. good thing to do if fork is hard to move, but always make sure to keep a little interference
My Fox 40 factory had so much stiction, even after a fresh service. I replaced it with a Zeb 190mm and I'm finally free of arm pump and have small bump compliance back.
I bought this tool and gave it just a single pass on each side with gobs of fox oil applied on my 34. It is noticeably smoother in small bump sensitivity now.
The bushings are an expendable part of the fork and over time will deteriorate causing play between the CSU and the lowers. You have pre-worn the bushings and some fork manufactures don't sell replacement bushings meaning when they are worn out you will need a new fork.
Well in polishing you are actually removing material, that’s the difference between polishing and filling. You have a scratch (a increased depth relative to the surrounding area) you polish it out by reducing the surrounding area to the same level, so burnishing or polishing are technically reducing the amount of PTFE The question is by how much and if it’s significant, if it’s a few microns (like most polishing examples are) then its probably a non issue
I always run my bomber forks now instead of rock shox if I can. Much longer service intervals so I can take it to the shop once a year and not have to worry about doing a lowers service at home
Just a thought. What does it feel like if you were to remove the dust seals before carrying out this procedure, Doing this would isolate that friction which may be coming from the bushes or the dust seal
A long time ago, I saw that in the USA, they do fork bar coating work, today I saw a ZEB with kashima coating on social networks. and I've seen Motocross forks with rainbow coating, the idea is that the coating is anti-friction. If you have the possibility to do it that would be great. And give us your opinions, I live too far to send my fork to the US and back. As an aesthetic alternative they look good. Best regards
So does that tool cut the bushings like a milling machine or is it just sort of stretching them a bit? My local suspension tech does it and afterwards the stanchions slide into the lowers just under their own weight. Might get it done at the next service!
I feel like this tool is only needed for when you replace the original bushings. I feel like a better test of the performance improvements would have been to test the stiction before and test the stiction after with metrics on weight to move. you have to remember most suspension is setup with the weight of the bike as a minimum. So a pass should be around 30 pounds pressure it should move easily.
It would've been cool to have a before shot of the same trail as well to see if there seems to be any difference in fork movement, and show that side to side.
Only forks I have now came stock on my giant 2015 carbon Hardtail and their rock shock recon gold , I’ve only had the lower service done once a few years ago now bike shops don’t want to do this type of work anymore and they want to send forks out back to the Factory . So I put some fork wiper seal lube on the stanchions. And then compress it up and down clean up some of the dirt wipe it off and just keep going. I don’t feel like having my bike shop. Send the forks out right now for a maintenance service. Mine work pretty good. I’ll see what happens in the future but thanks for the video. I don’t really wanna do anything like this at home even if it’s a lower leg service.
Hey Evan. Do you think there’s a way to use just the bits without the Tbar tool? It seems unnecessarily expensive. Like maybe just a socket extension on a drill?
when you're leaned into a corner on a 2 wheeler, there is actually very little side load or twisting force. if you stay upright on the bike, basically the only difference regarding the suspension is 1/ higher apparent weight (1g gravity + whatever coornering G) 2) the contact point on the tire moves slightly so the ground reaction compressing the fork cant be PERFECTLY aligned with the fork, but its close enough. if you lean the bike in the inside( under you), then you add some twisting force. exactly like if you'r riding straight but putting your weight on one side and the bike on the other side. its actually very similar for the rider, and for the suspension 4 wheels cornering = stong centrifugal force that wants to send you sliding of your seat and lot of lateral force transfered from the ground to the rubber, wheel, wheel hub, control arms, etc motorcycle cornering = centrifugal force blends with gravity, that acts like stonger, non vertical gravity. because the bike leans at same angle, all the forces are basically inline and way easier on the suspension, axles, frame. the twisting force on the fork when braking is probably at least 10x stronger...same when hitting sharp bumps, or landing jumps. the fork will bend considerably more th-cam.com/video/XyAbIpOO0Zs/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/_I8tl3dyeYk/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/pbu8Y7jPIOE/w-d-xo.html
great awesome video! But I'm blown away a stock fork comes that stiff!? Just curious as to if fork in the past had the same problems. I remember my marzocchi forks from 2002-2008 being buttery out of the box, too buttery!
Haha I heard about those old Marzocchis having bushing play out of the box. I've heard rockshox and Fox are sending forks with really tight bushings the past 5 years or so, that's speculation though. In the video I posted after this, I tested a new Zeb Select+ (cheaper version) and the bushings were PERFECT. So maybe its a QC thing.
I never remember older forks having play but being buttery smooth out of the box was the whole reason fox bought the right to use Japan Kashima coating. If you remember back in 2010 when fox came out with that fork makers were marking smoothest. hahahaahhha its funny! Kowa forks who first were using Kashima coating here in Japan would do demonstrations with their inner tubes sliding down the into the forks effortlessly!
Used to have a Rockshox sector 150mm that had play in the bushings after a few months of used even though they were cleaned and looked after, no longer own the bike I sold it, so sometimes they are oversized and not just undersized on the bushing, but I wouldn't do this on a new fork I would send it back if it had issues!.
2 5mm bolts and the lowers come off. Rockshox makes it SOOO simple with common tools like a cassette tool for both top caps. I definitely recommend it! I learned how following Syd and Mackey's video
lower service is pretty easy it's when you get to the upper service that it becomes a pain in the butt. I serviced my forks uppers for the first time yesterday and it ended up taking about 5hrs. I had to clean everything, then install new o-rings and a new piece for the damper. All the parts came included in the 200hr service kit from RockShox but it was still a pain in the butt and everything got covered in oil and grease. My local bike shop quoted me $100-$150 for them to do it and now I know why they charge so much lol.
@@B1KER easier said than done, but don’t be scared of your suspension! It’s pretty difficult to mess something up beyond repair, and spare parts are actually fairly inexpensive compared to a new fork. Worst case scenario, you get in a bit over your head and have to take it to the LBS for a service. But I think you could do it!
From memory the rockshox ultimate line have struggled with bushing issues for a few years. I’m not sure if they’ve fixed it yet. I heard of brands speccing the select+ forks because they have different bushings but still the top end damper.
I was riding by bike today and i had the same problems with the fork like you and I don't think that it is acceptable for a fox 34, so i will consider resizing it, thanks a lot
SicklineMTB 1 tip after burnishing you will need to adjust your dials to compensate for lack of mechanical bind from bushings. Ive Known mike for a long time and 23 years in suspension.... Burnishing has been a inside tip for a LONG TIME..take mine to .14 in of em brand new..
Buddy Ben runs the SCOTT DH race program I'm Switzerland and we go up to .18 Jake at Ohlins and I are always going over something and just sent him my spare set of these..BTW..you did a DAMN good job on addressing the reality and mechanical bind ...just texted Mike to see if you were coached...he said no you were already informed and that's why it was suck a good blood test for his tools with youm. Good job man .
A tip, if you don't have a fork with a floating axle like fox or Öhlins. You should put a hub or something else in the fork to make sure the legs are in the same position as if you have a wheel mounted. Otherwise you test the friction in a position that's never achieved when riding. I hope this made sense
@@EvansMTBSaga awesome! Keep doing the videos. For a lot of people this is completely new and it's not something you hear about a lot. Also if you send your suspension to the service center and read bushing calibration, a lot of people might not understand why the more expensive service with calibration is so much more expensive
@@EvansMTBSaga you can also play around with the lube in the lowers, there's some stuff I would avoid like PTFE powder (used in old school fox oil) it'll make your suspension a little tiny bit more plush, but will also give you bad skin and if you inhale the powder it's really bad for you. But mixing different viscosities (changing oil for winter as well) will give you a good and safe way to increase performance. I like to have a thinner oil in winter. I also mix 30% lighter oil with 70% standerd oil in my intend USD forks and 10% lighter and 90% standard in my Öhlins for summer riding.
i just did a 200hr service for the first time on my RS fork and that was a pain in the butt. Took me 5hrs to do it yesterday. Now I know why my local bike shop quoted me $100-$150 for them to do it. I saw those bushings in the lower legs and was wondering what they were for lol.
I have the tool ready to go for when I have time to service my fork. Just wondering why you didn't go with a bigger die after noticing that there was still significant friction?
"They would rather warranty a fork here or there" That is a top-tier fork. WARRANTY! If they have quality control problems, then let the rep know other companies want your money.
I have had both pikes and lyriks with sticky bushes i contacted sram and got new lowers in both instances way better . I dont think your right about the ptfe coating its super thin its not the entire bush and once worn off bushes will not be as slick still found you vid interesting . Funny how back in the day i used to make a hone out of emery paper and a stick sure it worked ha ha .
Choice to go coil definitely depends on bike kinematics, terrain, and style of riding. I had one on my Norco Sight and it ended up sucking the joy out of riding for me. It was amazing at hugging the ground, but I came up short on most jumps and climbing killed my soul. When I swapped it for an air shock, the bike absolutely came alive. For that bike specifically, I think the only coil that would work for me would be the new Fox Neo.
Nice video as usual. Great job. Keep it up! Question for you not necessarily pertaining to the fork. I’ve noticed you don’t ride your berd rims anymore. Is there any particular reason?
So I got the ohlins 38m. And it was like... stiff... like wouldn't really absorb anything. I sent emails and they wanted me to send it to a suspension servicer etc. (And if this was the issue they didn't even mention covering the cost as warranty.) I was very frustrated. Knowing I was gonna send it away any way and eat some cost.. I took it to the jump park to do some old school early 2000s style flat drops and abuse. After a few good hits... all of a sudden the fork started to get good. The harder I rode it the better it got. I suspect the issue was the bushings. And I suspect they can just wear themselves in. Which actually makes sense from an engineering point of view. Any metal with friction can have a bed in period.
@@EvansMTBSaga I’ve just got a Vitus sommet CRS my first full sus. I’m struggling with it to be honest. The front end isn’t very supportive it dives threw its travel a bit to easy. Any tips would be great full. Great channel mate keep up the good work. Cheers from the uk!
It really depends on the adjustments your Zeb has. I really like using low speed compression to avoid front end dive. I've also been increasing my rebound as of late as I've been able to ride with more confidence/aggression
Woaw you scored a nice kit, I have the kit including 36mm from laba7 to fix my DVO onyx but since I ordered it the fork fixed itself while riding 😅 🤦 Edit, it was expensive
Yeah I saw that brands kit can run as high as €1500! (Don't quote me on that) But I will definitely do this on every and all forks that come through my shop
The reason they they don't slide effortlessly is due to not having a hub. RS lowers tend to be bent slightly inwards, you can easily notice it every time you have to mount the front wheel that you need to open up the lowers since the hub won't slide right into the slots. However, I have burnished two Zebs and a SID in the last days. The current year Zeb was so easy to pass a .1 that I couldn't believe it. The other Zeb was a 2022 model and was definitely undersized. The worst was the SID which was also a 2022 model and took me 30mins just do be able to do a single leg with a .07. By how easily the tool went in with a .1 in your video, I doubt the bushings were that bad but usually burnishing always makes a fork better.
Thanks for the comment man! So others have said use the wheel for leg alignment. I have a spare hub laying around, that's probably easier to handle right?
@@EvansMTBSaga Yes, a spare hub will help you with the slide test. Also the other thing I'd suggest is to keep the axle in the lowers to avoid eventually over-flexing the arch and eventually risking a future failure. If you do this frequently enough you'll want to build a base to fix the lowers. Easy to do with a piece of wood and a fork mount from a bike rack screwed into the wood base.
@EvansMTBSaga On my OneUp dropper the collar has a bushing in it that creates friction due to to it being oval and in my case the dropper won’t top out properly so I had to use fine sand paper then polish to “fix” this isssue and both droppers work terrific. So yeah, ovalized bushings are definitely a thing. Great vid 🤘🏻
I had this on a brand new Lyrik Ultimate Charger 3.0 and I was fuming. Zyrofisher (UK Rockshox distributor) didn't even acknowledge my complaint. Thankfully I trusted a local suspension workshop and they burnished the bushing and gave the forks a "new fork service" which cost me a WHOPPING £54. It was well worth it but now the main issue is excess compression.... so charger 3.1 here I come
Excess compression on the Charger 3? I thought those were over damped? Cuz my Charger 3.1 feels like it has excess compression and the compression adjustments feel like they do nothing 😭😭😭😭 I'm so confused now, but I just bought a new bike with a Charger 3 so I'll find out soon
Blueprint fork....yet another thing I'll now have to add to my bike mechanic roster. Gee thanks hahaha. Just recently rebuild my first derraileur with a Maddone kit....totally worth looking into 👍
Been a while since ive been on this channel. Seeing the bike you're riding is crazy to me. I remember when you started with the schwinn and then went up to some different bikes and started getting your sponsors! Im still rocking the schwinn myself. I think it'll be soon time to upgrade, lol
Oh yeah its a DJI Osmo Action 4 with a Ram mount I think its called. Attached it to the top tube. I wish I had a better way to do it though that was a bit more stable
Lots of the friction you were demonstrating comes from the dust wipers in the fork lowers. To really check the friction of the bushings you should remove them. I also have found that, from the factory, the RockShox dust wipers feel bad and you should hit them with some slick honey.
Im a bike mechanic, and I dont do this, but you can be sure my forks get it done every time I give them to my suspension tech. Who would ride $1000's of dollars of product and NOT have such a simple task performed at regular scheduled intervals?
This sounds exactly like the issue I was having with my brand new pike. I ended up hating and thinking it was just how rockshox was and bought a fox. Still have the pike in the garage might look into this
If you're in Bentonville, I'll do it for you! Funny enough, I have a Pike Ultimate spare in the garage. Since it was off the bike, I did it in 5 minutes for fun. It's well used and the 0.1mm head was perfect
Do the 0h service for a new fork, and you’ll be happy without this tool. Manufacturing final assembly has poor QC (Foxes, Öhlins, RS do bot matter). After that you’ll be happy with your smooth fork
You're not the first to mention 0 hour service. Going to look into that. Although the last video before this one, I took apart the fork and swapped the air spring. So I'm wondering if there's anything more to a 0 hour service
One of the example is Fox - you can notice that people disassemble air shaft and can see a honey that occupy a half of negative chamber. Dry seals look new normal in assembly QC.
I should do this to my 23' yari. The force required to break it free is pretty ridiculous. Hard to justify paying that much for a tool when you have a midrange fork tho!
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To me, shows an example of a massive problem in the bike industry- lack of precision and repeatability. You shouldn’t have to buy a $200 tool and take apart your $1000+ forks for them to work as they should. Big component manufacturers like SRAM have amazing engineers who I’m sure they pay very well. They should be able to figure this out so the consumer doesn’t have to take these steps. I’m glad there are companies that make tools to help these problems, but the problem shouldn’t exist in the first place.
Agreed. They can do better. I've had problems with my Maven Ultimate brakes having a wondering bite point. I ran into a SRAM marketing guy on the trail here and he confirmed my issue is common. I've taken all the extra steps to bleed them and the problem persists. With that said, I'm a fan of SRAM and their innovation and ease of maintenance, and I'll continue buying their parts here and there. They can do better, I agree.
SRAM spend a lot more on their marketing than their engineering unfortunately and where it really shows is in the quality control on anything with tight tolerances. Rattly bushings are also very common with their forks. The solution there is to also drop hundreds of dollars on a tool to hammer the bushing slightly further into the fork leg, which has a slight taper that tightens the bushings. Suspension fork durability and price to performance ratios have deteriorated massively from 20 years ago before Marzocchi bankrupted themselves, when their open bath oil fork with a coil and air assist to fine tune the spring rate would run buttery smooth for years with no servicing at all. The sad thing is part of what bankrupted Marzocchi was that most people who ran their forks didn't need to buy a new fork every couple of years, so they sold less than the manufacturers making unreliable but shiny junk.
@@peglorthose Marzocchi’s were like butter
@@EvansMTBSaga I’ve heard that the mavens have issues. Interestingly, it seems like the highest end of SRAM product lines seem to have the most issues. I love my GX group set. I’ve NEVER had an issue with it. But I have also have issues with my ZEB ultimate forks and Code R brakes when I had them. I’ve since switched to shimano on almost everything and Marzocchi forks and have had no issues. But I think that’s common for most brands and not just sram.
@@peglor hence engineered obsolescence and maintenance intervals.
You want to remove the wipers to check the friction in the bushings accurately.
Otherwise there’s a good risk of spreading the bushings out too much and causing excessive play between the upper tubes and the lowers.
And for most users this would cause them the need to buy new lowers since most places don’t swap lower leg bushings.
Cool thanks for the tip! I will do that from here on
Excessive play was already a feature from new on mt Trance's Fox Float 36...
And also on all RockShox forks, install a hub...
Because the spacing of your actual hub also influences the friction...
All rs forks wit no installed hub are "stiff", becaus the lowers are a bit to narrow, without a hub...
And put in a front hub for alignment
@@paulcox7787 and check/adjust the front hub width for alignment.
It's likely not recommended to most people to try at home because if you go too far and oversize just a tiny bit you will have rocking and knocking in the fork which can make it feel way way worse since the fork will now bind. The stanchions should NOT just fall down. The bushings need a slight amount of a press fit to ensure contact all the way around and the tiny amount of stick-tion they have because of this is not noticeable.
Bingo!
I live in Taiwan, working in the bicycle industry, but not for any suspension company. Both Rock Shox and Fox do sizing. To get best sensitivity, you can size them larger than what the factories do, but at the risk of play, especially long term. If you were riding in the early 2000s, you know what I am talking about.
yep. Also, many things are not taken into account for these demonstrations:
a) you're not really loading the fork. In real life things will bend due to your weight and the head tube angle.
b) don't the stanchions themselves burnish the bearing surfaces during a short break in period?
c) in actual use the friction is hydrodynamic, since there are liquid lubricants involved and the bearing surfaces are quickly sliding along another. That's why your fork feels sticky after your bike stands still for a few days. But when it is actively cycling throughout its stroke, the coefficient of friction will drop MASSIVLY, a factor of 10-100.
@@DerDanachDenkende
a) is something that applies on top and adds to the friction. unlike 'static' bushing friction it cant be decreased.
b) no because the material springs back to some degree (as everything does). the burnishing die has to be oversize to compress the bushing material so that when it springs back it hugs the stanchion perfectly.
c) I highly doubt there is actual hydrodynamic lubrication occuring as there is no significant lubrication gap (otherwise there would be play in the lowers). also the hydrodynamic lift, as in the stanchion gliding only on oil cannot happen, because of the rotational symmetry (and no play). Also I think there is not enough oil to keep the lubrication film 'alive'.
Rock Shox Psylo 🤣
Totally agree with you. Back in 2011, I worked at a company specializing in suspension maintenance. When we replaced or refurbished the bushings, customers were always thrilled. Some would even ask, "Did you change my fork?" because the difference in performance was like night and day. I really hope to get this tool, as we used to do it all by hand, measuring with an axial play gauge, which was incredibly time-consuming.
Ohlins did this as part of a free upgrade service a couple years after they released the rxf. They found their bushing and seals were too tight and allowed for the mod free and incorporate it into new forks.
Ohlins > Others
Nice! It's 530am here and I'm drinking my coffee trying to wake up before heading out for a ride at 615 and up this pops! Thanks!👍
Same, but heading to a bike park at 9!
Hell yeah
Just got this done at a local bike shop for my factory 38, really did help with the small bump compliance. Helps the fork to not just feel plush in the jank stuff
@@aaronstariha6841 how much was the service?
How much
I'd suggest the best first step would be to remove the dust seals, and then check for optimum spacing of the fork through axle. Mass produced forks may easily have non parallel stanchions or lowers. You can use shims to pack out the hub if necessary. Once you've got that the best it can be, move on tot the burnishing (if till necessary). Otherwise to may be using the burnishing to just hide the real problem.
yeah my stanchions are for sure not parallel. I'm going to order some of those axle shims and give your proper method a try
New seals were pretty stiff and has stiction. After a season of riding, now is very smooth. Second removing the seal when doing this.
@@EvansMTBSaga the problem with most forks is that if the front wheel hub width isn't exactly matched to the fork seats, tightening the thru axle can cause extra friction, as can hubs that are over width which will require machining. Generally everything works fine for most people, but outlying out of tolerance cases can occur with some combinations. Even your burnished forks may behave differently with the wheel tightened in place.
I never comment on any youtube videos, but I have to on this one. In short, you did this wrong. You burnish with a Hub in the wheel, this is because when you ream the bushing, you want it against a known datum point (how the bike is ridden) you have sized the bushing to the tool, you might get lucky and this helps, or you go too far. The issue can commonly be with the lowers or the crown having incorrect tolerances bowing inwards creating stiction. Quite often it's a 0.25mm shim in the hub to have a properly functioning fork, it's not the bushings at all. $400 in tooling or a 2cent shim, worth checking first.
great video! it’s crazy how much difference just dialing in components makes. people might be scared off by the price of specialized tools, but that burnishing tool is a lot cheaper than a new fork and a lot more convenient than being without a bike for a month while waiting on a warranty job.
This is great! To get the lowers gliding down the uppers as you wanted, you need to install the front wheel, as the forks close down a bit when you tight the axle, and the forks are manufactured with that in mind, so they work better with the wheel on.
Yeah the bind felt like the fork legs weren't perfectly parallel, so that makes a ton of sense
As a suspension service tech i do this every day to many forks. Its very important to know exactly what size burnisher to use in each case. It should be specific to each stanchion size and the film thickness of the oil used in the lowers for best performance. You can go too far for sure and new bushes will cost you a fair amount to replace.
You should also lubricate the burnisher with a small amount of the lower leg oil intended for use.
And make sure everything is super clean too. You dont want to scratch your burnisher or the bushes
Thanks for commenting! I just did it on another fork (brand new Zeb Select+). I installed the hubs (for lower leg alignment), removed the dust wipers, and checked the bushings. They were super smooth, I even felt the slightest amount of play. Is that normal?
Pretty crappy so many people having problems with brand new very expensive forks. Do people have to break oout the tool box to get their brand new car/truck/motorcycle/jetski/playdoh fuzzy pumper/Bigwheel to work like it oughta? No siree, they do not. Yeah, looking at you, rockshock
"To really dial this fork" you should have removed the seals as well. To how "deep" you need to go into the burnishing you should have install your front wheel. Because the hub is a "spacer" between the legs. Then you will see how easily slides the lower and if it reqs the next size to burnish.
Other than that, mortal people won't spend a good used fork price to a tool. They have an other solution: shimming the front hub. There are shimming washers in 0,1, 0,2, 0,3, etc mm. Gut out the fork (yes, even the seals) try and error how many shims you need to add.
Cool thanks for the tip! Makes sense and honestly it felt like the legs weren't aligned when I was demostrating it without the front wheel
In most cases the csu has same toe in or out. That's why it's so important to try it with the wheel in use.
@@EvansMTBSagamaybe some all thread, some washers and bolts can serve as a spacer/hub on the lowers
@Manetty6 shims on both sides?
@@gerritmai6393 doesn't really matter. 0.2-0,4mm is not really noticeable at the wheel dishing.
I remember, on the freeride/DH forums an engineer-minded rider built a set of these and, after a load of testing and demonstration, ended up 0roviding a service to rieers on the forum (for a fee) to do their fork bushings.
Today we find commercially available tools. And yet still the manufacturers are providing forks that seem to require this treatment to work as advertised.
Ive suffered this i have a rockshox pike 2016 in a bin right now because I could not get the binding out of my bushings. your example of the issued where you showed the bike leaned over and binding extra was perfect. That's actually how I diagnosed it I just leaned the bike over and felt weather it was harder to telescope the fork from one side to the other.
I just spray a little gun oil on a shop napkin and rub on the stanchions. Then just compress the fork a few times. Makes a huge difference, but you have to do it every couple of rides. You should try this out on another bike fork you have that sticks and compare to the work you did in this video.
Man, this is what my 2013 Fox 34 needs. I have swapped the damper to an Avalanche damper, upgraded the air spring. I even converted the air spring to dual-air to get rid of one more seal. Nothing seems to work. Even running the damper with no oil feels like a rigid fork on brake bumps. It has been to 3 service shops and all said the bushings were fine. On my other bike I have a Formula 35, which I know they hand-pick the stanchion size that goes well with the bushings. Much better approach. But $162 is a bit steep (although the Avalanche damper was $450).
Great vid!! Even tho we SHOULDN'T have to do this!! Im sure after you really "break in" that Zeb it will feel BUTTERY smooth 🤙🏻
This was my exact issue on a 2022 Fox 38. First couple inches wouldn’t move at all till the bushings were resized.
I'm glad you commented! The tight bushing problems aren't unique to SRAM/Rockshox. I'm glad there's a tool to fix it 😁
I think i would be sending them back if they aren't up to the job , eventually, they might ensure produts are tested before they leave the workshop
In a perfect world, we'd all send it back in hopes of them fixing the process. But I just wanna ride! So having no fork for however long the warranty process takes would be shooting myself in the foot
@@EvansMTBSaga that, and would they even take them back on warranty for this issue? I wasn’t aware so many others had this issue, but I have also experienced it. I do enjoy a lot of SRAM products, but I am deeply skeptical and cynical of most brands in this industry.
with that mindset, youd be sending back 95% of all bike products.
@@MrSupermugen no, just the high end parts that you would expect have gone through extra QC
@@georgeforeman89 They do, they work... but to get that really good stuff from them... cost extra.
The New DVO 38 doesn't have this problem. It's one of their top priority manufacturing process they focused on.
Ashton MTB did a review on a DVO fork, I forgot which, but it did not even compress halfway with him hanging of the handlebar.
I've been doing my own fork service for over 2 decades and have Never had any issues with the Stanchions not being anything over than super smooth in n out of the Lowers...So....!!!!!😎
Great video, thank you! Was going to get my bushings burnished by a tuner, but considering doing it myself now.
Definitely very easy! Without filming, it'd take maybe 30 minutes to do it. I forgot to mention in the video that the tool self aligns and centers itself
It’s 10:35pm and this is exactly what I needed to make my night! Another great video.
Thanks dude! Enjoy!
It's called "self clearancing", they size them to the nominal minimum tolerance and allow the fork to break-in.
lowers and uppers may not be 100% parallel which can cause a ton of friction, some people use a shim between hub and fork or shave a smidgen off dropout to get 100% plushness
I've had the ZEB Ultimate for a year now. With the charger 3 cartridge it was way too stiff and had little small bump compliance shaking my hands to bits. I've opted to get the charger 3.1 upgrade in combination with SKF dust wipers and it made a noticeable difference. But overall I still feel like RS has some serious quality control issues and after 6 years trying to make it work, I'll definitely look into a different direction for my next Enduro bike.
That's a bummer to hear because my charger 3.1 feels too stiff 😅😅😅
I have found out, that this tool actually helps the fork get smoother. While i have been rounding my lower legs bushings I have used fork oil as a lubricate to ease the prosess.
I worked at bike suspension industry and the best way to do that is removing seals and try a little... and each leg you put in just one side... and still aways checking the play of each leg. Sometimes the difference of legs can be 0.05mm maybe more. So, if you fit a large tool in a tight leg you'll destroy your bushings
No more cast, lookin good my man!! That zeb is pretty sweet, I had to do this same junk to my bomber z2. You are a gentleman and a scholar for making this video.
Thanks man! Feels good to be done with the cast haha. I enjoyed making this "educational" video haha
The privious owner had this done it was cool to see what he was talking about exactly. My Sid forks are buttery soft and my hands no longer get numb on extra long rides (thats also valid).
Very cool video and one of the first I've seen on burnishing. It's much simpler than I though that's for sure.... question, is this a Charger 3 or 3.1 Zeb?
Good question! So from what I read, the charger 3 was over damped so they released the charger 3.1 and so far, I feel like it's severely under damped and the compression knobs basically do nothing. I still have to work through it, that's why I didn't say anything on video. I picked up a Zeb Select+ for another bike with a Charger 3, so we'll see if I like that one more
@@EvansMTBSaga Wondering if you have ever tried any of these aftermarket dampers, like the MRP lift? Also, great video... This bushing resizing is something I definitely am going to look into because my ZEB select feels exactly the same. That's actually why I was researching dampers, because I assumed that was the issue on the select
I have not tried aftermarket dampers. Funny enough, this is only the second time I've ever removed a damper. I didn't want to deal with the mess, I just assumed theyre all open bath. I didn't realize the Charger 3.1 was a closed damper, so I'll probably be more willing to mess with the damper now
@@EvansMTBSaga That's the reason I've never done a full for service myself too. I'll do a 50 hr but have always been reluctant to do anything beyond that.
you see the red color? that alone is the answer…
I have done this with my zeb and it really is a night and day difference, I would say the difference I noticed from unsized bushings on fast chatter and braking bumps was almost as much of a difference as swapping from air to coil in the fork. If you're looking for absolute bump eating sensitivity you should consider trying out the Vorsprung smashpot. My zeb is coil swapped with burnished bushings and it is unreal the difference from back when I had an air spring and factory bushings. As an added benefit with a coil front and rear the bike feels so balanced and linear front and back. They also have a hydraulic bottom out built in to the coil assembly to engage and prevent bottom outs in the last 50mm of the forks travel. Love Vorsprung and getting my suspension dialed to a level above what factory components can generally offer.
I did this twice to my suntour, once over did it....
its not burnishing, rather its taking away materials, though very small amount...
if u over do it... the stanchion can flex tiny bit back and forth specially under braking.
good thing to do if fork is hard to move, but always make sure to keep a little interference
My Fox 40 factory had so much stiction, even after a fresh service. I replaced it with a Zeb 190mm and I'm finally free of arm pump and have small bump compliance back.
I bought this tool and gave it just a single pass on each side with gobs of fox oil applied on my 34. It is noticeably smoother in small bump sensitivity now.
The bushings are an expendable part of the fork and over time will deteriorate causing play between the CSU and the lowers. You have pre-worn the bushings and some fork manufactures don't sell replacement bushings meaning when they are worn out you will need a new fork.
For me, I want peak performance instantly because I switch bikes a lot I'm not sure if Rockshox sells bushings, but they sell lower legs for like $350
@@EvansMTBSaga you are correct, you would have to replace the entire lowers to my knowledge.
Well in polishing you are actually removing material, that’s the difference between polishing and filling.
You have a scratch (a increased depth relative to the surrounding area) you polish it out by reducing the surrounding area to the same level, so burnishing or polishing are technically reducing the amount of PTFE
The question is by how much and if it’s significant, if it’s a few microns (like most polishing examples are) then its probably a non issue
I always run my bomber forks now instead of rock shox if I can. Much longer service intervals so I can take it to the shop once a year and not have to worry about doing a lowers service at home
Just a thought.
What does it feel like if you were to remove the dust seals before carrying out this procedure, Doing this would isolate that friction which may be coming from the bushes or the dust seal
A long time ago, I saw that in the USA, they do fork bar coating work, today I saw a ZEB with kashima coating on social networks. and I've seen Motocross forks with rainbow coating, the idea is that the coating is anti-friction. If you have the possibility to do it that would be great. And give us your opinions, I live too far to send my fork to the US and back. As an aesthetic alternative they look good. Best regards
So does that tool cut the bushings like a milling machine or is it just sort of stretching them a bit? My local suspension tech does it and afterwards the stanchions slide into the lowers just under their own weight. Might get it done at the next service!
Stretches! Then the ptfe is polished aka burnished
I feel like this tool is only needed for when you replace the original bushings. I feel like a better test of the performance improvements would have been to test the stiction before and test the stiction after with metrics on weight to move. you have to remember most suspension is setup with the weight of the bike as a minimum. So a pass should be around 30 pounds pressure it should move easily.
It would've been cool to have a before shot of the same trail as well to see if there seems to be any difference in fork movement, and show that side to side.
Had no such issue with my Fox forks. Rock Shox had complaints about "bushing play" for several years, so I guess they're making them tighter?
Haha seems that way!
Only forks I have now came stock on my giant 2015 carbon Hardtail and their rock shock recon gold , I’ve only had the lower service done once a few years ago now bike shops don’t want to do this type of work anymore and they want to send forks out back to the Factory . So I put some fork wiper seal lube on the stanchions. And then compress it up and down clean up some of the dirt wipe it off and just keep going. I don’t feel like having my bike shop. Send the forks out right now for a maintenance service. Mine work pretty good. I’ll see what happens in the future but thanks for the video. I don’t really wanna do anything like this at home even if it’s a lower leg service.
Hey Evan. Do you think there’s a way to use just the bits without the Tbar tool? It seems unnecessarily expensive. Like maybe just a socket extension on a drill?
Oh I'm not sure if you could make a jig or something. It definitely needed the torque to get it started
when you're leaned into a corner on a 2 wheeler, there is actually very little side load or twisting force. if you stay upright on the bike, basically the only difference regarding the suspension is
1/ higher apparent weight (1g gravity + whatever coornering G)
2) the contact point on the tire moves slightly so the ground reaction compressing the fork cant be PERFECTLY aligned with the fork, but its close enough.
if you lean the bike in the inside( under you), then you add some twisting force. exactly like if you'r riding straight but putting your weight on one side and the bike on the other side.
its actually very similar for the rider, and for the suspension
4 wheels cornering = stong centrifugal force that wants to send you sliding of your seat and lot of lateral force transfered from the ground to the rubber, wheel, wheel hub, control arms, etc
motorcycle cornering = centrifugal force blends with gravity, that acts like stonger, non vertical gravity. because the bike leans at same angle, all the forces are basically inline and way easier on the suspension, axles, frame.
the twisting force on the fork when braking is probably at least 10x stronger...same when hitting sharp bumps, or landing jumps. the fork will bend considerably more
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Awesome man thanks for the great comment. I'll check out those videos! I always love to learn about how bikes work
Ummm… this may be a stupid question, but how do I get the “promo code” to enter the bike raffle? I can’t find it anywhere.
I'm not sure, there is no promo code. You're not the first person to ask that, but I'm not sure why it's asking that
@@EvansMTBSaga it’s asking me one question to make sure I’m legit, and it’s asking for the “promo code”.
Just hit enter without putting one in
@@EvansMTBSaga it won’t let me. It Ight tho
great awesome video!
But I'm blown away a stock fork comes that stiff!?
Just curious as to if fork in the past had the same problems.
I remember my marzocchi forks from 2002-2008 being buttery out of the box, too buttery!
Haha I heard about those old Marzocchis having bushing play out of the box. I've heard rockshox and Fox are sending forks with really tight bushings the past 5 years or so, that's speculation though. In the video I posted after this, I tested a new Zeb Select+ (cheaper version) and the bushings were PERFECT. So maybe its a QC thing.
I never remember older forks having play but being buttery smooth out of the box was the whole reason fox bought the right to use Japan Kashima coating.
If you remember back in 2010 when fox came out with that fork makers were marking smoothest.
hahahaahhha its funny!
Kowa forks who first were using Kashima coating here in Japan would do demonstrations with their inner tubes sliding down the into the forks effortlessly!
Used to have a Rockshox sector 150mm that had play in the bushings after a few months of used even though they were cleaned and looked after, no longer own the bike I sold it, so sometimes they are oversized and not just undersized on the bushing, but I wouldn't do this on a new fork I would send it back if it had issues!.
This was interesting! I need to get over the fear of opening up my suspension.
2 5mm bolts and the lowers come off. Rockshox makes it SOOO simple with common tools like a cassette tool for both top caps. I definitely recommend it! I learned how following Syd and Mackey's video
Lower service and a spring swap is super easy.
lower service is pretty easy it's when you get to the upper service that it becomes a pain in the butt. I serviced my forks uppers for the first time yesterday and it ended up taking about 5hrs. I had to clean everything, then install new o-rings and a new piece for the damper. All the parts came included in the 200hr service kit from RockShox but it was still a pain in the butt and everything got covered in oil and grease. My local bike shop quoted me $100-$150 for them to do it and now I know why they charge so much lol.
@@B1KER easier said than done, but don’t be scared of your suspension! It’s pretty difficult to mess something up beyond repair, and spare parts are actually fairly inexpensive compared to a new fork. Worst case scenario, you get in a bit over your head and have to take it to the LBS for a service. But I think you could do it!
@@NonLegitNation2 Yeah 5 hours…I’d definitely pay someone else 😂
From memory the rockshox ultimate line have struggled with bushing issues for a few years. I’m not sure if they’ve fixed it yet. I heard of brands speccing the select+ forks because they have different bushings but still the top end damper.
I have a Zeb Select+ that came on my next new bike! I will do this procedure on video and report the findings
I was riding by bike today and i had the same problems with the fork like you and I don't think that it is acceptable for a fox 34, so i will consider resizing it, thanks a lot
Yeah I wish all brands did a better job with the bushings
I just got a new bike with 3.1 zebs on it i thought it felt really good is more of a luck of the drawing thing with this problem
I was wondering the same thing...the 2025s are supposed to have tighter tolerances. Do we know if this is a older model?
SicklineMTB
1 tip after burnishing you will need to adjust your dials to compensate for lack of mechanical bind from bushings.
Ive Known mike for a long time and 23 years in suspension....
Burnishing has been a inside tip for a LONG TIME..take mine to .14 in of em brand new..
I definitely had to adjust mine! Good to know about going with the larger size for new forks
Buddy Ben runs the SCOTT DH race program I'm Switzerland and we go up to .18 Jake at Ohlins and I are always going over something and just sent him my spare set of these..BTW..you did a DAMN good job on addressing the reality and mechanical bind ...just texted Mike to see if you were coached...he said no you were already informed and that's why it was suck a good blood test for his tools with youm. Good job man .
A tip, if you don't have a fork with a floating axle like fox or Öhlins. You should put a hub or something else in the fork to make sure the legs are in the same position as if you have a wheel mounted. Otherwise you test the friction in a position that's never achieved when riding. I hope this made sense
Absolutely. I've heard that a few times in these comments and I will absolutely do that next time. I could tell the legs aren't parallel
@@EvansMTBSaga awesome! Keep doing the videos. For a lot of people this is completely new and it's not something you hear about a lot. Also if you send your suspension to the service center and read bushing calibration, a lot of people might not understand why the more expensive service with calibration is so much more expensive
@@EvansMTBSaga you can also play around with the lube in the lowers, there's some stuff I would avoid like PTFE powder (used in old school fox oil) it'll make your suspension a little tiny bit more plush, but will also give you bad skin and if you inhale the powder it's really bad for you. But mixing different viscosities (changing oil for winter as well) will give you a good and safe way to increase performance. I like to have a thinner oil in winter. I also mix 30% lighter oil with 70% standerd oil in my intend USD forks and 10% lighter and 90% standard in my Öhlins for summer riding.
i just did a 200hr service for the first time on my RS fork and that was a pain in the butt. Took me 5hrs to do it yesterday. Now I know why my local bike shop quoted me $100-$150 for them to do it. I saw those bushings in the lower legs and was wondering what they were for lol.
Thank you for doing a video on this subject. You got me at "more traction".
I have the tool ready to go for when I have time to service my fork. Just wondering why you didn't go with a bigger die after noticing that there was still significant friction?
I did increase it to 0.13 for the extra tight uppers
"They would rather warranty a fork here or there" That is a top-tier fork. WARRANTY! If they have quality control problems, then let the rep know other companies want your money.
I have had both pikes and lyriks with sticky bushes i contacted sram and got new lowers in both instances way better . I dont think your right about the ptfe coating its super thin its not the entire bush and once worn off bushes will not be as slick still found you vid interesting . Funny how back in the day i used to make a hone out of emery paper and a stick sure it worked ha ha .
Welcome to Coil shock gang Evens! How does the shock feel compared to an air shock for you ?
It feels perfect! Thats what rear shocks should feel like. And its super quiet! I'm going to start playing with the LSC/HSC soon
Choice to go coil definitely depends on bike kinematics, terrain, and style of riding. I had one on my Norco Sight and it ended up sucking the joy out of riding for me. It was amazing at hugging the ground, but I came up short on most jumps and climbing killed my soul. When I swapped it for an air shock, the bike absolutely came alive. For that bike specifically, I think the only coil that would work for me would be the new Fox Neo.
Is it not just a case of wearing the fork in? Like everything new, it takes time and use for it to that “perfect” feeling?
What mount did you use for the video of the fork action? Thanks
Nice video as usual. Great job. Keep it up! Question for you not necessarily pertaining to the fork. I’ve noticed you don’t ride your berd rims anymore. Is there any particular reason?
Oh they're on my XC bike. The rims are more XC focused anyway. I'm debating getting some for this ebike haha. They just released downhill versions
There is a paralelism of the stantions , and the lover legs too , and precision width of the hub , so how to measure that paralelism ?
So I got the ohlins 38m. And it was like... stiff... like wouldn't really absorb anything. I sent emails and they wanted me to send it to a suspension servicer etc. (And if this was the issue they didn't even mention covering the cost as warranty.) I was very frustrated. Knowing I was gonna send it away any way and eat some cost.. I took it to the jump park to do some old school early 2000s style flat drops and abuse. After a few good hits... all of a sudden the fork started to get good. The harder I rode it the better it got.
I suspect the issue was the bushings. And I suspect they can just wear themselves in. Which actually makes sense from an engineering point of view. Any metal with friction can have a bed in period.
Do you run air volume spacers in your zeb?? I’ve heard it runs better without any?
I've tried 0,1,2 spacers so far and I really couldn't tell any difference haha. I'm avoiding bottoming out right now cuz my injury though
@@EvansMTBSaga I’ve just got a Vitus sommet CRS my first full sus. I’m struggling with it to be honest. The front end isn’t very supportive it dives threw its travel a bit to easy. Any tips would be great full. Great channel mate keep up the good work. Cheers from the uk!
It really depends on the adjustments your Zeb has. I really like using low speed compression to avoid front end dive. I've also been increasing my rebound as of late as I've been able to ride with more confidence/aggression
Got bushings burnished on my Fox 36, too. It's been a noticeable change. Would do again.
Woaw you scored a nice kit, I have the kit including 36mm from laba7 to fix my DVO onyx but since I ordered it the fork fixed itself while riding 😅 🤦
Edit, it was expensive
Yeah I saw that brands kit can run as high as €1500! (Don't quote me on that) But I will definitely do this on every and all forks that come through my shop
also run some high quality fork oil halps as well. rockshox / maxima and fox ptfe is no the best oil you can source.
They now spec Rockshox with Maxima oil from the factory
I just slapped 2 tokens in, took some air out and abused it for 10 days at a bike park and it felt better than new afterwards!!
yeah, my fork definitly could benefit from that...but moreso my dropper...always a pain in the ass to get that to go down
New fear unlocked after knowing this
The reason they they don't slide effortlessly is due to not having a hub. RS lowers tend to be bent slightly inwards, you can easily notice it every time you have to mount the front wheel that you need to open up the lowers since the hub won't slide right into the slots.
However, I have burnished two Zebs and a SID in the last days. The current year Zeb was so easy to pass a .1 that I couldn't believe it. The other Zeb was a 2022 model and was definitely undersized. The worst was the SID which was also a 2022 model and took me 30mins just do be able to do a single leg with a .07.
By how easily the tool went in with a .1 in your video, I doubt the bushings were that bad but usually burnishing always makes a fork better.
Thanks for the comment man! So others have said use the wheel for leg alignment. I have a spare hub laying around, that's probably easier to handle right?
@@EvansMTBSaga Yes, a spare hub will help you with the slide test. Also the other thing I'd suggest is to keep the axle in the lowers to avoid eventually over-flexing the arch and eventually risking a future failure.
If you do this frequently enough you'll want to build a base to fix the lowers. Easy to do with a piece of wood and a fork mount from a bike rack screwed into the wood base.
My lyrik is also small bump unsensitive but also shakes when braking so I think there is already too much play in the bushings...
Do you find those crank brothers spd shoes to be good and worth the cost?
Yeah I like them a lot! Just stiff enough for a good ride experience, light enough for pedaling on long rides, comfy enough to walk around in
@@EvansMTBSaga do they fit true to size? Because I can get them on sale in my country but they only have half a size bigger
@EvansMTBSaga On my OneUp dropper the collar has a bushing in it that creates friction due to to it being oval and in my case the dropper won’t top out properly so I had to use fine sand paper then polish to “fix” this isssue and both droppers work terrific. So yeah, ovalized bushings are definitely a thing. Great vid 🤘🏻
I had this on a brand new Lyrik Ultimate Charger 3.0 and I was fuming. Zyrofisher (UK Rockshox distributor) didn't even acknowledge my complaint.
Thankfully I trusted a local suspension workshop and they burnished the bushing and gave the forks a "new fork service" which cost me a WHOPPING £54. It was well worth it but now the main issue is excess compression.... so charger 3.1 here I come
Excess compression on the Charger 3? I thought those were over damped? Cuz my Charger 3.1 feels like it has excess compression and the compression adjustments feel like they do nothing 😭😭😭😭 I'm so confused now, but I just bought a new bike with a Charger 3 so I'll find out soon
Blueprint fork....yet another thing I'll now have to add to my bike mechanic roster. Gee thanks hahaha. Just recently rebuild my first derraileur with a Maddone kit....totally worth looking into 👍
Oh yeah those look awesome! I don't have any trashed derailleurs to try it with 😂
Been a while since ive been on this channel. Seeing the bike you're riding is crazy to me. I remember when you started with the schwinn and then went up to some different bikes and started getting your sponsors!
Im still rocking the schwinn myself. I think it'll be soon time to upgrade, lol
Welcome back! I've evolved from the Schwinn. I went to the next step which was Polygons. Now I wanna try other brands! It's super fun
tell me abbout your camera that you use to video the suspension movement
Oh yeah its a DJI Osmo Action 4 with a Ram mount I think its called. Attached it to the top tube. I wish I had a better way to do it though that was a bit more stable
@@EvansMTBSaga sweet good to know. i will check it out, definately lov that POV. happy trails
Bigger size of bushing icrease sensibility, but in time stanchions loose coating.
I also like to line the inside of the dust wiper with slick honey
Oh yeah I did that with mine too
you should try that test without the fork wiper, to determine the friction only from the bushings
Yeah I wish I would've!
Lots of the friction you were demonstrating comes from the dust wipers in the fork lowers. To really check the friction of the bushings you should remove them. I also have found that, from the factory, the RockShox dust wipers feel bad and you should hit them with some slick honey.
Will do that coming up on a new bike I got with a Zeb Select+!
What’s the promo code for the raffle?
There is no promo code. I'm not sure why you're getting that prompt.
@@EvansMTBSaga nvm didn’t realize you could just bypass it by literally just clicking enter lol
Oh good to know! I will tell people that when they ask (or maybe not, better chance for you to win haha)
That tool appeared to have a cutting head, so it would remove material, especially the thin coating of PTFE. Not sure of the longevity of the fix...
The head is rounded over, not a cutting head
would you send the giveaway bike outside of US if the winner was willing to pay for shipping?
Im a bike mechanic, and I dont do this, but you can be sure my forks get it done every time I give them to my suspension tech. Who would ride $1000's of dollars of product and NOT have such a simple task performed at regular scheduled intervals?
This sounds exactly like the issue I was having with my brand new pike. I ended up hating and thinking it was just how rockshox was and bought a fox. Still have the pike in the garage might look into this
If you're in Bentonville, I'll do it for you! Funny enough, I have a Pike Ultimate spare in the garage. Since it was off the bike, I did it in 5 minutes for fun. It's well used and the 0.1mm head was perfect
@@EvansMTBSaga appreciate it! but I'm a few thousand miles away haha good info to have though. Great vid
What's the LCD that shows the speed? Is that only for ebikes?
That is the display for the E-Bike, but I have a cycling computer next to it called Hammerhead Karoo and that also shows speed a bunch of other stuff
Do the 0h service for a new fork, and you’ll be happy without this tool. Manufacturing final assembly has poor QC (Foxes, Öhlins, RS do bot matter). After that you’ll be happy with your smooth fork
You're not the first to mention 0 hour service. Going to look into that. Although the last video before this one, I took apart the fork and swapped the air spring. So I'm wondering if there's anything more to a 0 hour service
One of the example is Fox - you can notice that people disassemble air shaft and can see a honey that occupy a half of negative chamber.
Dry seals look new normal in assembly QC.
Oh yeah I did the same with the Zeb. I don't trust the amount of oil and grease in the air side from the factory haha
Hey evan, i have a brand x ht-01, i really want to see what you could do with a frame like mine.
Those are definitely cool frames! I almost bought one a few years back from Chain Reaction when it was like $200
I should do this to my 23' yari. The force required to break it free is pretty ridiculous. Hard to justify paying that much for a tool when you have a midrange fork tho!
It will last a lifetime. I'm gonna do it preventatively on every fork
New forks do bushings need wearing in.
Never had a fork that did that especially my new zeb guess ill check it on my 50 hour service
Has the fork play increased due to polishing the bushings?
No play! It's such a small amount - 0.1mm.