Why 17 Years On, A Rover 45 V6 Made Me Finally Mourn MG Rover
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- In today's video, I am looking at the Rover 45 V6 Connoisseur. A car rarely loved in its day, but now a real rarity on the roads. When new, myself and many others looked down upon it - but today I realise I may have been wrong.
I probably got some facts wrong in this, so if I did - let me know down below!
#Rover #45 #MGRover
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Thank you ever so much for filming my car, Mr Martin! It looks fantastic in the video, and I am very glad that you enjoyed it. I forgot to top the coolant up before the video (I have since done it), but I actually haven't done it in months, so it's all working fine now, and it did the 250 mile round trip for filming with no problems at all, apart from the heavy fuel consumption.
Good afternoon Lloyd Vehicle Consulting.
@@tomberrisford6006 , why good afternoon, sir!
Good looking car that, and it sounds great, you must be very proud
@@FlyasaDiamond , a friend of mine has one of these in much better condition than mine. Ours is daily driven, which sort of explains that! Lots more MG Rover era car videos on James' channel and on mine too, of course.
A future classic for sure
Had a Rover 600 auto as a company car, put over 200,000 miles on it over 4 years, never missed a beat.
My parents had one. 20 years, 220k miles. Only one breakdown. Rust killed it 😢
I used to have a 1994 Rover 620ti which was a beast. Would be interested to hear your thoughts on them if you can find one to review / test drive.
Nice video! People tend to only see the bad stuff when looking at MG Rover. Yes yes, we all know they blow head gaskets and were seriously uncool for the best part of 20 years. In my experience, Rovers were fundamentally good cars. People need to look past the head gaskets. Those were solid cars, really nice to drive, elegant and classy. They were classy cars for the middle class. That's missing from the market. In a world focussed on SUVs and sporty everything (including SUVs), Rover had a truly different approach. Some may argue that there isn't the market for them anymore, but those of us who aren't necessarily looking for bone-shaking-ride-fake-noise-red-stitching-stuff daily cars at a lower price point than Jaguars and Mercs, we were left without any other options, even more after the end of Lancia in Europe (even if you guys haven't had them since the early nineties). Every time a company goes bust it's us, the consumer, who lose the most.
Rover had a wonderful team of engineers and designers, truly a case of lions led by donkeys. Don't forget, that "decadent" Rover Group, after the British Leyland collapse, was responsible for cars such as the original Discovery, a classic in its own right, the Freelander, a truly modern take on an old formula. Yes BMW helped with the 75, but most of the engineering was an in-house affair. Even the amazing R50/R53 MINI, is wrongly called a BMW. Yes, it was possible with BMW's money, but it was as much a Rover product as the 75. In fact it is essentially a shortened 75.
Even the fabled K-Series, despite its famous HGF, was an astonishing feat of engineering and won many accolades during its life. In its 1.4 variant was the most powerful production 1.4 N/A in the world, on par with Alfa's 1.4 TS with 103hp, for almost 20 years. Not only was it the most powerful in its class but it was one of the most frugal, being capable of over 40 mpg all day long. All this with a weight of well under 100kg. Remember, this was 1989. People used to drive along in thrashy old Ford CVH by then! Here was an engine with around 30-40% more power than the competition, more economical and truly modern. Yes they have their flaws but they were a consequence of the genius behind its conception.
You may have already noticed that I am a Rover fan, but not a blind one. I have owned lots of other brands over the years, and still do, but they are far far better products than the idea most people have about them. If cars were all about their failings we couldn't possibily appreciate most exotic cars in the world. In that case, we should all drive Corollas and Civics.
The point he's making is one of my small battles over the years. Please please give them a chance to impress. Look past the sometimes untrue (but not completely) reputation. Not the best cars in the world, but surely, not the worst. Not even close. They may even surprise you.
Many years ago I worked for a company that had a contract with Rover, which involved going to Longbridge on a regular basis. What you say about there engineering side was as good as any I have seen anywhere.
One might also see more than a little of the concept R35 dna taken from MGR and used in a certain best selling "small" hatchback from a famous German auto manufacturer....
Completely agree with you. My dad owns a P5B too
I was talking to an ex rover employee recently and he was saying that the blown gaskets were the cause of the parts not being aligned quite properly. (He also has 17 rovers in his garden)
Plus HGF became more common when BMW bean counters forced the K series project to suddenly be enlarged to 1.6 and 1.8L...early K engines are the best and all Ks can be made into reliable units
My mother, at my recomendarion, back in 2001 part exchanged a mk3 golf tdi for a brand new 45 1.4 we had it till 2014. It was not the best thing in the world. I was driving a 89crx si at the time but i was always pining to drive the rover. I found the driving experience relaxing like the car it self wanted to be driven slowly and gently. Not to say that i didnt once cover 450km in something short of 2 hours in it.
A cautionary tale. Everyone took the mick out of Rover and the MG derived models at the time. Then over the years one man and his dog starts to say the models were misunderstood and actually fairly good. If more people had done that when they were still around. We all say we'll miss them when they are gone. Well they are. Maybe in future we should do more to support in the moment
I think the beginning of the end for Rover Group was when British Aerospace sold the business to BMW. I felt the long term future back then was increasing collaboration with Honda. BMW's acquisition of the business was all about getting access to RRs four wheel drive expertise, as much as developing the Mini brand.
Agreed. The Honda collaboration was a genuinely successful, mutually beneficial arrangement under which Rover was able to develop, and properly screw together a genuinely competitive line-up for the first time in living memory thanks to expertise and technological know-how from Honda given in exchange for much needed European production capacity. Unfortunately, as usually tends to be the way when it comes to British business, someone came along with a load of cash, and the quick buck won at the expense of any sort of strategy or consideration for the future.
My first car was a 2005 Rover 25, it wasn't the best but I absolutely loved it... For a month until it ended up in a hedge...
I really miss the wood trim interiors. Rovers interiors always seemed classier than ford and Vauxhall's. I ran a 416 GTi in British racing green for 14 years with no problems.
Agree the wood on an escort ghia was just shocking by comparison.
The matching Honda Civic also had a wooden trim IIRC.
I had the Honda Civic 5 doors from 2000, which is the Rover 45 as well. I think - they way how you describe the driving and steering feel is quite similar.
I grew up in Los Angeles in the '60s/'70s. It was a cornucopia of foreign cars from everywhere. Quirky was chic and Rovers were well represented. Have and will always love them.
Nice car aged incredibly well to.
Hasn't it just?
When I was young, I always had a soft spot for Rovers because they had wood on their interiors and because I liked both their design and their logo's. The 75 is my attainable dream car. It's a shame that Rover went under.
Don't know why Rover couldn't be like skoda is today for example just needed proper investment a sad loss.
@@nudgenudgewinkwink3212 Because BMW didn't want a base competitor, I suppose.
Why do you think the Rover 75 is your unachievable dream?
@@petrol-head-Steve there is still some on autotrader for not much money.
@@petrol-head-Steve I didn't. I said that it's attainable, i.e. something I may be able to afford at some point. With that being said, though, I'm sure that their value will eventually go up.
My father had a 1974 Rover 3500 V8S. Wonderful car.
Have to say a high spec 45 is a handsome looking saloon. In fact MG/Rover did a good job Rover-ising the Honda based cars throughout the 90's. I remember seeing a brand new Trophy Blue ZS 180 saloon being driven 'properly' in the early 2000's and have kind of wanted one ever since, an absolute bargain still compared to it's peers - but imagine that will change in coming years!
Prices going up now
Good luck getting a reasonable 180 for under 2k
@@jacobward201 It's about time, they've been criminally undervalued for some time
I had a hand me down 1996 420GSI as my daily and i have to say, i really enjoyed wofting about in it, the T-Series engine was pretty decent and would embarrass some of the hot hatch kids. Later on i got another hand me down MG ZS Tdi hatch, which whilst not exactly fast, did handle pretty bloody well, so the trick was to just not brake and scrub speed. That very ZS drove from Warrington to Gibraltar and back 2-up crammed with furniture TWICE for not much money. Frugal indeed. My introduction to your channel was the ZT V8 video, so nice to go full circle. I still yearn for a facelift Rover Coupe in Amaranth purple, the one with the VVC engine.
That Panavision jacket, though! 😎
Ah, a man of taste and experience
From the USA I see all Honda civic, but Rover put their touch on it. I'm surprised they squeezed a V6 in it, our Accord barely had them around that time. Nice review!
How is 150BHP from a standard 2L engine puny? Its more than most repmobile 2L units from the same era. Ford & Vauxhall were only offering 135ish from their contemporary engines, I think your being blinded by the amount of high power cars you drive.
It would have been better with a manual gearbox (as I frequently find out myself).
It's not a terrible specific output, but for a range topping V6 it is an odd choice of displacement. All of the thirst but less of the power
@@JayEmmOnCars when you consider the normally aspirated M-series 2 litre in the 200/400/600 series that predated the K and KV-series engines produces 150bhp... and 200bhp from the turbocharged T-series variant, I would agree; it was fairly poor - especially given the increased complexity of the V6. I had a 220 Couple Turbo many years ago... and it was a lovely, lovely thing.
I remember my godparents had one of these from new, around the same age. They'd wanted the 75 but it wouldn't fit in the garage, so the salesman managed to talk them into one of these instead. I remember it looked pretty good in metallic dark (British Racing?) green.
I have had a few Rover 25s and loved them. But my favourite is the Metro GTi. Great fun to drive. I still have one for trackday use.
People always feel so sad about MG Rover but MINI should be thought of as part of Rover that BMW saved. The mini is built at a rover factory and if they haven’t all retired now by ex rover employees. So MINI is to many extents the remaining part and successor to rover. If you liked Rovers then buy a MINI.
Great video, enjoy the channel and although you do review a lot of expensive luxury and super cars, you still appreciate the “normal” car.
But the Mini is a large part of what killed Rover. It should've been a success for Rover but BMW took it away when they asset stripped and dumped the company.
The Mini to me feels more like a reminder that Rover died for the sake of a rebadged, ugly 1-Series.
@@SpitfireFortyFour No offence but your reply is completely my point. Rover as a company was breaking BMW, seriously, it was close to bankrupting them. MINI was as history now shows us was the viable part of the business. People always think of MINI as this new BMW creation, but as i said, it was a rover factory and being built by proud rover staff. So the MINI is as Rover as it gets. Yes they dumped the rest of the business, but as good as the cars they were building were, so many royalties were being paid to Honda on each car built there weren’t making a profit. I sincerely believe that had BMW given MINI to Phoenix, it would’ve died with MGR. Also, the MINI came out years before the 1-series and is completely different to it!
Jaguar and Land Rover is more of a successor to Rover, I’d say Rover lives on in modern day Jaguar more than Jaguar does. The 75/ZT successor is the Jaguar XF and the 45/ZS is the XE, literally the car that became the XF was on Rovers board back in 2002 before Jaguar took it over in 2005. In Fact Rover is the creator of many Modern Land Rovers including the L322 and Discovery 2 and 3. BMW was a Joke and the worst car company, they knew Rover was the better and more luxurious brand and stealing Land Rover and Mini off Rover is just an insult, I hope one day BMW gets their comeuppance day, evil swines that make the shittest cars known to man. While Rover made some of the finest and best cars, very innovative, way ahead of time and always thinking ahead just look all of the post-1996 Petrol Rovers can run on E10 while many other cars can’t. BMW stole a lot off Rover including the Rover 35 (successor to the Rover 25) which became the shitty 1-Series, BMW are good at stealing other peoples stuff and making it even more shit and as for Mini Rover actually made the Modern Mini till 2005 but BMW taking other peoples credit again. The Mini gearbox was literally a cheapened Rover 25 R65 gearbox to make shitty BMW precious Mini look worse and made them have faults to make BMW look like shit, which it is. The M47 engine which was originally a Rover Development which BMW stole and then Rover re-engineered the M47 into the M47R for the 75/ZT which would have become the all new Rover G-Series Common Rail Diesel Engine by the 2006 Rover 75 Heavy Facelift. The only thing the Mini is a successor to is the 1959-2000 Mini and the Metro/100 which became the CityRover.
Loved what you said about the 75! It was my first grown up car, in British racing green, estate connoisseur. Most of my friends were surprised by this choice, but it definitely had bags of character and was a solid and totally reliable ride. Drove it all over Europe and did many laps of the Highlands and Islands of Scotland too. The first version definitely was the the better interior as they really shouldn't have changed the oval dials that gave off the lovely pinky orange glow. So many lovely details, and I probably should have kept it longer.
Owned a succession of Rovers over the years including one of these in a really nice metallic dark green, drove it for a few months and it was really too small so traded it in for what was the first of 3 75's Great cars and as mentioned greatly underrated.
I agree these are decent cars and handle really well. I've also done a fair few miles in the ZR (again fondly remembered) and my dad owned a ZT160+ from new for a good while. I myself had 3 600s - a diesel, a Honda petrol auto and the T-series Ti. I always thought the loud detractors were mostly just a bit thick to be honest, because they were objectively very good value. Nobody driving e.g. a Mk4 Golf GiT has any business saying a ZS180 isn't a hoot to drive.
I've had a 45 TDI on an 02 plate, it was a great family car, never went wrong. It was slow but practical and still is one of the nicest cars I've driven in similar classed cars.
That was a great review and a breath of fresh air from the regurgitated bashing that the marque suffered over the years. Of course, Rover had its faults.
On another note, the day of the Rover dismissal was a day to remember for me for good and bad reasons;I had a successful job interview but also when I found that my dad had early onset of Alzheimer’s where I talked to him about Rover and he replied that thankfully he didn’t had a Rover. He actually had one for the last 14 years and didn’t remember he still owned that car.
This was Rover's problem, their key demographic forgot they existed.
I remember not really liking Rovers, especially the 25, the R8 series from the early 1990s and the 45. That ALL changed when I heard a Rover SD1 V8, and then sat in a ZR my uncle owned and how comfortable the seats were. I'm a bit of a Rover fan now. Especially the Rover Tomcat Turbo Coupes!
Great Video, Ive got the Honda Equivalent of these cars Being the 1.8 VTi with the B18 Engine in it. Hoping to be restored this year :)
Jealous! I had an MC2 (Aerodeck version) years ago and wish I hadn't sold it. Fitted ZS180 suspension and rear sway which transformed the handling. Biggest problem with the VTi is the awful gear ratios in the S9B...if you can get a 'teg box swapped in then do!!
@@gazman9468 It needs a fair amount of welding to the sills unfortunately, front jacking points as well, Huge common issue with these Cars, Front Jacking points just rot away thanks to the bad Drainage system on the car. its pretty hefty work but will pay off in the end, ill post some updates of the car on my youtube if youre interested :)
Worse thing about these cars was all the switches and knobs inside that would fall apart.
Mine is 19 years old, and has done 76,000 miles, none of the switchgear has broken or fallen apart.
@@lloydvehicleconsulting I worked for a Rover dealership for a while and noticed many switches broken etc. Maybe that was earlier models. And some people actually look after their cars !
@@malcolmhardwick4258 , I have had eight Rovers myself, and plenty of issues over the time. James mentioned a few of them in the video, of course, but actual buttons and switches falling off I have not experienced. The clock doesn't work and exterior door handles on these and interior door handles on a 600 and on a 200 SD3 falling off are common, yes, but not the buttons and switches in my experience, although they feel old fashioned in a car from 2003. I think that I am the third owner of this car, so it probably has been looked after to some extent, although we have also done a fair bit of work to it.
You still see them allot here in Spain and they are cheap to buy ! I had a 216 cabrio and loved it never had one problem whit it . sold it last year and this for 3 times more I paid for it 5 years before ! And yes rover were not that bad in the last year's
You lost me at 2l V6 with 150bhp and an auto box. Vomit.
You would (like me) have been more the target audience of the 180hp 2.5L V6 manual MG ZS I expect
I don't know, it's perfectly adequate for my needs, but people like Mr Martin much preferred the faster ZS 180 with the manual gearbox. I have driven one, and the ride is just a bit harsh for me.
I did the whole rover thing in the late 90s early 2000s and the day of my nans funeral I got to tick the 200 and 600 off my list. Id always been given lifts in my friends silver 416 and my uncle had a maroon sterling v6 as his company ride and i did many an m25 slog in that. Funeral day I got to travel in an alan partridge midnight blue 214 and then my dads cousins white 600 3 abreast in the back. The seats were an utter joke in the 600 even as a teen boy it was a squeeze with my mum and sister. The 200 was just plain unpleasant after 5 mins. Ran a purple p reg 214i for 2 months in late 2006 commuting from dartford to horsham, the shame was unbearable luckily it was winter and dark. Good little 100bhp powerplant mind. Velour and wood with manual windows was a curiosity.
Am I the only person that stops the video half way through and heads off down an Autotrader rabbit hole?
Nope. I do it too.
These 45 V6s are extremely rare now. As James points out, when you combine both trims available (Club and Connoisseur) there are only around 60 left taxed on the road now, so it's hard to find one, and the numbers have halved in the 18 months we have owned ours, but there is one on Gumtree at the moment, I think.
Tiff Needell is on record as saying the MG ZS, which is based on this car, is one of the best handling front wheel drive cars he's ever driven.
It looks very very similar in shape and size as the Acura 1.6EL I had.
That was actually based on the second version of the Honda Domani!
My dad had a Montego in 1989 for few years and as a 9/10 year old I spent a lot of time trying to persuade him to get a Rover 200/400 series for the next family car. Mainly because it had rear headrests 😆
Haha, funnily enough my Dad went from a Montego 1.6L into a couple of 214SLi’s as company cars. Best thing for me was finally having electric windows!
I had a mg turbo montego as a taxi and was brilliant and it was very quick lot a power for front wheel drive
They were rocket ships
Don't forget that the 1 series BMW is basically the next generation Rover 200 model that was never built
Some of the exterior looks takes inspiration from the prototype/concept. Thats about it, as far as I know.
@@GoldenCroc - Probably better not to recognize the first generation 1 series as Rover anyway. They were awful.
@@camperlustig68 Except for the unfortunate shaky 00s BMW quality, I think they were quite nice actually, depending on the spec, model year, and of course what one is looking for in a car. RWD hatchbacks certainly dont grow on trees.
The ones I had certainly did their job I asked of them. But then again, I am hardly the typical motorist.
I would have thought that a V6 Rover 75 Tourer would have ticked most boxes. At the time it was around I was into Saab 900s but it was on my short list.
I totally agree with everything you said about the Phoenix 4. John Towers was a known entity who'd previously been Rover group executive before BMW took over so when he came back with the Phoenix 4, people, myself included, assumed he wanted to make Rover good again and trusted him. As a result MG Rover managed to do the unthinkable of persuading people to buy MG Rover's slightly outdated cars, instead of more modern rivals, as they bought into the idea of supporting the company with the hope that their loyalty would give MG Rover the profits to reinvest in new models and make sure they had a future. The resurgence of MG branding on the 25, 45 and 75 platforms was a great way to help get even more value from them. So many companies would have killed for that sort of sales success. Having persuaded people to buy their cars - usually the hard bit - all Phoenix now needed to do was the easy bit of rewarding that faith by reinvesting all that income into Rover. Even if that hadn't worked people still would have respected them for trying. Towers, on the face of it, could have become a National hero and been heralded as the man who saved volume car manufacturing by a British brand. Sadly what he and Phoenix did was to monumentally shoot themselves in the foot with greed and basically betray all those willing followers. You cant come back from that! If they hadn't been so stupid I think we still would have had MG Rover today. It makes me so mad.
Hi, you need to mention about the plastic upperinlet manifold the internals are made out of plastic and over time break and then you hear the rattle of death. If you visit DMGRS there is uprated versions of the thermostat to cure the problem once and for all.
I have the uprated metal thermostat housing from DMGRS fitted and you can actually see my old plastic inlet manifold in the boot of the car at one point.
@@lloydvehicleconsulting Its a pity that there is still not an aftermarket scene like you get with VW products. I had a MG ZTT v6 and the upperinlet manifold issue really hurt me that a fix had not been created yet. At the moment everyone wants to replace with a good used second hand one but they are ticking time bombs, you just don't know when that will die and it will.
@@christianpullen2165 , it seems that the higher mileage inlet manifolds are less likely to develop the rattle than the lower mileage ones for some reason. This was true of the one I had (66,000 miles) versus the one on the car now (102,000 miles when I bought it).
When the German CO states the company is in difficulty at the launch of of the 75 that was the beginning of the end they also took Mini with them and the BMW1 series was very similar to the Rover 25 replacement. So basically BMW & Phoenix Consortium raped Rover to death 💀, nice to see this review James, prices are slowly creeping up on some top notch models. I remember when you couldn’t shift Jenson Interceptor’s or Sierra Cosy’s but look at those prices now.
The 1-series Rover story is a myth. The stillborn Rover hatch was FWD, for a start, based on the 75 platform, which was too long and heavy for the job.
@@richardharrold9736
If you do some basic research Richard you will discover that what you have just claimed is the real myth.
@@johnbrereton5229 I have done my research, thanks. There was a superficial styling resemblance between the two, but they did not share anything under the skin. Different platforms, FWD vs RWD, transverse Rover vs longitudinal BMW engines...
@@richardharrold9736
The R30 was not based on a scaled down 75 it was a completely new design produced at Gaydon headed by Richard Woolley. You are confusing the R30 with the plans of the later Pheonix 4 MG Rover company trying to produce a new model cheaply by using parts they already had. However, the R30 was before this and under BMW ownership. It was to be produced at Longbridge after a £2billion investment which the British government contributed £152million. Also it was to be fitted with a new generation NG 4 cylinder engine to be built at Hams Hall Birmingham not the front wheel drive K series. Rover had also been experimenting with designing a crash structure for this car for an inline engine as they had with the 75 previously. The Pheonix 4 even produced an inline MG on the Rover 75 platform.
Lets not forget many Rovers from the past had been inline, front wheel drive was a fairly new innovation for Rover probably carried over from Austin. The R30 project was also very advanced and approaching production when BMW split Rover apart and sold the company in seperate pieces. The R30 was offered to other manufactures including the Chinese but no deal materialised. There was even a prototype produced that disappeared into BMWs headquarters in Munich and if you look at the R30 and the Series 1 they are the same from the A post backwards. BMW have never confirmed the two cars are related but it's very likely that they are. BMW would certainly not have wanted to waste all the development costs on an excellent design that was up and running.
@@johnbrereton5229 other than the bodged-together 75 V8, only possible because the 75 was partly based on BMW bits, all Rovers had been FWD since the Honda takeover - the original 200 series, the 400s, 600s, 800s and so on. There was never going to be a RWD Rover hatch, the R30 TWR was assisting in developing was based on the FWD 75 platform. The NG engine was a revised K-series and later appeared in the MG6, itself built on a development of the 75 platform. The R30 had nothing to do with BMW other than the BMW origins of the rear half of the 75 platform it was based on. The 1-series was already under development in Germany in the mid 1990s, design work frozen in late 2001 and launched in mid 2004. It is based on the E90 3-series platform. There may be a superficial styling resemblance between the two cars, but under the skin they were utterly unrelated. Even visually, there are major differences - the leaked engineering CAD drawing shows the R30 had a six-light glasshouse with a rear quarterlight behind the rear doors. The 5-door 1-series never had this feature - the quarterlight was always integral to the door. This means the entire rear body structure had to be completely different even if the rear suspension and axle were the same (which they weren't).
I owned 3 Honda versions of this car, all Civic Aerodecks. Even the little 1.4 was a hoot to drive as a first car. Later i got the MC2 with the brillant B18C4 engine which suited this car very well. Sadly ALL of those are now too far gone rustwise. There are some weakpoints that are so prone to rusting that it is nearly impossible to avoid.
I always liked the look of this cars and in 2004 it was a great, reliable and affordable choice for a first car. The handling made many later cars i had quite dull in comparison, because naturally i expected all cars to handle at least like those little entry level cars but after some test drives i realised that those cars set the barrier quite high.
Yes, one of the main areas for rust on this platform is underneath the front passenger seat. Unfortunately, this is where mine is starting to go now as well, so I will have to get it welded, but at least I didn't get an advisory for it on the MOT six weeks ago.
@@lloydvehicleconsulting There is a point in the engine bay on both sides where 3 pieces of sheet metal are only laid over each other, every car i saw in recent years had rust there. The footwell/firewall is also known to fail, exactly like the bootfloor. It's great to see one in such good condition, they are pretty rare by now.
@@MilesDeluxe , the sills can be bad too on them, as they are all old cars these days. No problems on ours with any of those three areas you mention, but I am sure that you are right. Got lots of videos on it myself, as we have had it 18 months now and done more than 10,000 miles in it as one of our two daily cars. They made just 700 45 V6s, and, as James said in the video, not a lot left now, apparently 60 taxed on the road with a further 70 on SORN. Since we bought ours, the numbers of the ones taxed on the road have actually halved, so they are disappearing quickly.
BMW boss Pischetsrieder was the entusiast who bought Rover - some ideas to revive Wolseley and RIley brands apparently. He was the one who also obtained RR in 98 as you recently covered (and the RR/Bentley split wasn't quite as amicable an agreement with VW as you mentioned).
Rover was a much bigger job to reform than BMW expected. And in 99 there was the big argument between Pischetsrieder and Ritezle his deputy - after that the then ex-boss of BMW went to VW and Rietzle to Ford (reunited with LR!). And BMW what remained of Rover after selling LR to Ford was handed to John Towers' Phoenix Grp for that tenner. So BMW's tenure of Rover was a mess and imo due to overambition. Honda had been a much better partner. But as eager as BMW were in 95 or so to buy Rover, British Aerospace were just as eager to dump them after having problems trying to sell off much of land around the like of Solighull (BAe did downsize Cowley nicely!).
BMW did of course keep the MINI brand and had got good 4x4 input as it developed the X5.
I was visiting the Longbridge production engineers office in 95(?) the day BMW's acquisition was announced - took most there by surprise. Pissed off one prod engineer who'd spent the previous couple of years on many Honda Japan trips and trying to learn Japanese.
I think BMW held onto the Rover (and its brands except for MG!) for at least a decade - TATA bought the right to Rover off them. Otherwise now might just have the Land and Range ranges.
Very accurate explanation. Whenever I see one of these later Rover-models, my feelings are always the same: if Rover had stuck with Honda, they probably would still exist today. I can remember those 1990s-rumours of reviving Riley too and even then thought: who would be interested in that?
@@johang7498 Absolutely. Acquiring Rover seemed to be a vanity project made with the excuse of being BMW's way into the volume market. They made the best of a bad job with MINI and some were only interested in what they could get out of LR but it was a bad idea buying Rover to start with. Maybe BAe could've got Honda to buy a bigger share in Rover if they needed the money
I love Rover always have and when BMW bought Rover, BMW were always going to take Land Rover and mini, and as far as I am concerned The loan was basically lip service, and for a long time I would never buy a BMW as if it wasn’t for Austin there would never of been BMW as it was because of the British manufacturer giving BMW the Austin 7 after ww1 bmw would never of survived
I love rovers from start to finish my first was a sd1 3.5 vanden Plas and had the 2.3 2.6 sd1 then 800 and 600 series and 75 most comfortable cars and good looking aswell shame they went bust ...that's bmw for you never liked bmw never will over priced over rated cost arm and leg when they go wrong bmws that is and ugly as hell
I was once told that MG Rover got ripped off at a meeting in China, The Chinese took the Rover exects out got them drunk and said just sign here please without them reading the final details of the paperwork and signed the company over to the Chinese business men for £100 🤣
Good story, and I enjoyed watching! (And I'm even more delighted with my green MG ZS 180.... Greetings from the Netherlands
I had a late Rover 45 TDi the interior was much improved and modernised in the facelift it was also in a stunning pearlecent red it was powerful enough and it also got nearly 60mpg I do regret selling it
How times have changed,did my Parts apprenticeship at a large main dealer for Austin Rover/Land Rover/Freight Rover/Jaguar from 1988 until 1993,back then we kept over £1m of stock ( and no it wasn't just K Series head gaskets and PSA manual gearboxes!! ) I felt sorry when they went not just for the staff at Rover but also for a lot of the companies in the Midlands who supplied them.Blew my mind after moving to a Peugeot Main dealer,that bumpers didn't come pre painted and when a new Pug was brought out accessories like mats etc became available AFTER the car was already on sale! Swings and roundabouts with most manafacturers nowadays.Pheonix four should of done Jail time,in this day and age they may of done!!
I remember sitting in class and my school friend came in and said his dad just lost his job at rover.
The amount of people it effected at my school was crazy.
(I lived not far from Land Rover)
These were built on the eg platform. Amazing platform and best civic ever. (Domani was the civic)
Yes, there are a lot of shared parts between this and the EG Civic, most obvious one is the vent on top of the centre of the dashboard.
@@lloydvehicleconsulting that vent was broke on 3 of the 4 civics I had lol. Beautiful car btw. I always had a soft spot for rover in general.The 25 was amazing fun and i have vivid memories of the btcc mg version racing around mondello here in the ROI
@@crztank9298 , mine seems OK at the moment! Yes, I have driven an MG ZR and I used to own a 25 myself, both do drive well, although this has a much better driving position.
Man, i miss MG Rover! ZS 180 owner here
I had a go in a ZS 180 a couple of years ago. It was absolutely fantastic!
Always loved the ZS, nearly bought one but didn't manage to get the funds for it being only 19 years old :( How has your head gasket been? Or am I right in saying that the 180 is a V6 engine?
@@BennyJ69 , the 45 V6 and the ZS 180 both use the KV6 engine. Head gasket failure is rare. James points out a couple of the other common issues with the engine in the video. I forgot to top the coolant up before the video (I have since done it), but I actually haven't done it in months, so it's all working fine now, and it did the 250 mile round trip to see James with no problems at all, apart from the heavy fuel consumption.
I had a ZS180 too!
@@lloydvehicleconsulting Wow so the reputation which seemed to have killed all of mg/rover was pretty misplaced then. Well, with the V shaped engines anyway.
I love the rover 45. My dad and I want to move back to England next year.
My dad fancies the sportier MG ZS in that bright blue colour, and I want to buy a Rover 45 connoisseur in racing green.
My dad and I both love MG Rovers, Great video Jayemm
Great review! You maybe not know but Rover was hugely sucessfull in Portugal. Still love the 25 streetwise! Still looks really cool!
..I ended up selling my stunning and rare ..all- aluminium Midnight Blue 1970 California British Rover 3500 V8..to a fellow Brit..the US TV Director and Producer David Davis for Mary Tyler Moore..who told me..he was well-qualified to maintain it..aah..those were the days..and still miss that car.. with the headlight lit tips right over the bonnet..the icing sensor..and the fully back- lit clear glass Instrument panel..priceless..
Really enjoyed James. Took me down memory lane when I was 21 / 2004 I had a lovely Kensington Green Rover 400. Sales man said “it’s like a junior Jaguar!” Gone on to own 3 Jaguars so far, but 400 had great plastic wood & felt seat covers! Do miss Rover
Funny isnt it that now in 2022 ( 2023?) people are beginning to realise that Rovers were actually very good cars. The truth was that the likes of BMW Audi VW Renault etc etc were actually crap. How many 25 year old BMws do you see ? You see far more Rovers!! the British motoring press had it in for Rover ( maybe not enough back handers from the Brits unlike the Germans ) and destroyed a great company. The British public believed the absolute myth of German reliabilty and build quality ( Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha !! ) and bought foreign rubbish. Now they are finding out what true dogs German cars are - and its all too late for Rover - Very very very sad!!!
Can only agree with you with regard to the Phoenix Consortium. How they didn't end up in court is beyond me, but I think the government of the day had a hand in it.
To allow all British marques to be sold off as they did meant none of these marques could ever be produced in the UK again.
The remain UK automotive industry is foreign owned. To think of Land Rover Jaguar being owned by an Indian company is something I never thought would happen and the former marques of BL mostly being owned by China is crazy. Though at least a few people are employed in these foreign owned asset strippers.
Nice simple car. Nice video. Thanks for covering cars from defunct manufactures. Keep up the good work.
I'm happy to say I still have an MGZS 1.8 saloon tucked away and waiting for some TLC and it remains one of the best cars I've ever owned - one of the few cars of its era and price point sold by mainstream OEMs that was actually desirable imo.
Rover/MG sadly succumed to a succession of bad business choices, disinterested owners and finally asset strippers - had their last owners been ones interested in saving the brand, I'm certain it would have made it ( do research on the Rover 35/55 that could have been) - even the infamous K series engine was made reliable by Ricardo and SAIC in the mg6 by simple design changes and less penny pinching....
RIP Rover. Definitely missed.
BMW also ended up having to take on the huge British Leyland Pension fund, that carried a huge deficiet.
My Nan still receives a healthy pension from BMW, as by Grandad worked at British Leyland (building buses) for 30yrs before being made redundant in 1987.
Lol bmw sinking rover is kind of true. Rover designed the mini and the 75 once bmw saw the potential of the mini they kept the design for themselves and sold rover off. Basically used them and their time / engineers to make them a car and then sink them like a stone once they had it meaning bmw basically got a free car with rover footing the bill.
What a great video. I loved my ZR, never had the head gasket issue and it handled beautifully, always loved it on the B roads.
Always fascinated by the business side of Rover, I think the MG range was under rated!
For being "cheap" cars, those Rover interiors look pretty ritzy and nicely finished! Especially when compared to the gray sea of plastics found in the Focus and other competitors.
I know they had something about them. Especially in the pre focus and golf 4 era of the mid 90s, they felt fresh enough with a hint of luxury thrown in. Far nicer to travel in than a tinny escort ghia with ghastly plastic wood or a dreary corolla or an almera of the day.
Criminal what they did to Rover
Did they do anything that would have made a difference in the end, though? I dont think so.
@@GoldenCroc How could we possibly know? Probably not to be fair, but terrible quality control, poor design/range decisions and woeful workforce relations can't have helped. I remember for the SD10 they had (I think) a 2L, 2.3L, 2.6L and a 3.6L, oh and a diesel at one point. Nuts. I also remember a 6 month old Rover 600 with serious rust on the B pillar inside the door.
@@lozetchells9164 My gut feeling was that the writing was on the wall when BMWs marketing campaign perhaps failed to generate enough sales numbers. After that it seemed like they were in a death spiral.
But it seems you are talking about much earlier than I thought, I thought your "they" referred to the Phoenix group.
(do you have such a ROVER IN MANUAL GEAR) not automatic 2:42
Bittersweet indeed. My first car was a Rover 211 ie. Bought her from a dealer near Nottingham a month after I got my licence, back in 2010. Named her Gunz. She looked pretty nice in her deep green, but the headlining fell on my head when I was looking her over, trying to open the sunroof (it had a sunroof! Mondo cool) drained the battery and she all smelt like burnt wires inside. Still paid the £600 that was asked for her 'cos I didn't want to take a train back to London and I liked how she sounded when the little 1.1 revved out... She was amazing to drive, but she only lasted a month, quite a bit was wrong with her and she eventually all froze to death in the snowfall of December that year... I still privately mourn her whenever I see a Rover 200 or 25 pootling around. I'm glad I had that experience.
Why do you use she/her instead of he/him?
The booted version of the 45 is a very classy looking car, even more so in a dark colour 🙂
I had the MG ZS V6 but the slightly rarer hatchback version which was slightly shorter and did away with the massive spoiler. Great little car and far quicker than I expected. Handled great but inevitably fell apart.
Brilliant cars we had a British racing green one but was a 1.6 petrol pretty nippy aswell would have another defiantly
I drove a 1.6 45 last year, and it was absolutely great.
How come Rover never made its way to the 'States? Seems like a pretty decent brand.✌🏻🇺🇸
Rover Group did try exporting the 800 to the USA in the late 80s/ early 90s. However, British vehicle makers don't have a great reputation, Rover failed to sell, so they pulled out of the market.
Also just to add, it came out that BMW even offered them to use e39 running gear at one point and build on that chassis but rover said they wanted to save money and have the 75 straddling the mid size and large executive segments, a bit like the Citroen bx did many many years before so turned them down. However at this time it wasn’t working and in fact the 75 harmed 45 sales because of this too.
What I’m saying I think is that not one thing ruined Rover and the rover group. It was a long domino effect of stupid mistakes
That would've meant they could build the 75 V8 with a BMW 4.4 V8 instead of bending over backwards to go backwards further to fit a Ford 4.6 V8? As an American, that E39'd Rover would've been a car that would've made me go "Oh great. Another cool car the rest of the world gets that we don't." But with the Mustang running gear in it, I actually just laughed and felt bad for it.
Saying no to BMW finest hour the E39 bad as that decision is does not compare to severing ties with Honda.
For me the real killer of Rover as a brand was neither BMW nor Honda, it was the Metro. It should never have gotten a Rover badge, Austin/Rover Group should have discontinued it in 1990 and let it be - it was already a 10+ year old design even than and starting to look a little dated next to newer rivals. When it was added to the Rover range, it immediately brought the entire image of the brand downmarket and added further associations with rust (which ironically the fully galvanised Rover version largelly addressed) old ladies with zimmer frames and just a general sense of being behind the times.
The fact they kept it on sale for a further 7 years after this point and only stopped selling it when it scored 1 star for crash safety in the NCAP tests did them no favors at all in terms of public perception. The 75 on the other hand, was a delightful car, easily class best at lauch, but the rest of the range was only avarage-ish and incredibly it was only just over a year from when the Metro (sorry, Rover 100) was discontinued to when the 75 first appeared! Convincing buyers that Rover were to be taken seriously next to BMW and Mercedes was a bit of a hard sell to a lot of people by that point, even if the car its self was up to the job. The damage had been done even before BMW stepped in IMO (but certainly that self-sabotaging speech at the launch of the 75 didn't help matters!).
Um, that £500 Million 'loan', often, and constantly, referred to as a 'dowry'. In context, even at the time, as I recall, a typical cost for a volume manufacturer to develop just a new engine was around £250 Million. Basically, that £500M was chickenfeed compared to what BMW took away with them. Yes, they did pretty much asset strip Rover. BMW walked off with much, much more than the new Mini. As for the Phoenix people, all you've done here is regurgitate an old narrative. All those MG-Z things never remotely had the potential for the volume sales that the company needed. MG Rover had little chance after the behaviour of BMW. They just didn't have the financial resources. Oh, and one of the first things BMW did when they came into Rover was kill the collaboration with Honda.
The diesels had a fair bit of poke.
Love the Big Mouth references! Also seem to have a soft spot for Rover but never driven one, must be the patriotic itch
Always loved the look of an MG ZS 180, never driven one but would love to own one for the looks alone.
what a coincidence; I looked at a 2001 Rover 45 1.6 yesterday. decent, but it didnt have airco (needed for pet). currently driving a bit boring Focus from same era.. this seems a bit more 'car' for the weight. keep it up Jay, love the vids.
What was done to the rover group was dreadful! They were stripped of all the good stuff an thrown away.
My father had a p6(?) 2.2 TC when I was a kid, my brother in law had a 3.5 sdi mk1, I've had a 45 1.6, a 600 2.0, 820 sli and two 2.6s sdi's a mk1 an a mk2. The top end of Rover's were the jag for the people not just the tof's. Quirky fact, Queen Elizabeth ll actually learned to drive in a Rover a P5B or something I think 🤔 (I know it was rover just not sure what the model was).
Enjoy your non MG euro boxes. 🤔 Top Gear fooled you.
They're not even euros boxes. They're offbrand Chinesium boxes!
Cracking video James. Off onto C&C...
There is a 45 V6 on Gumtree, I believe.
A true car review video genius
I always thought the 2.0V6 was a curious engine for this car. Smooth and quiet probably, but actually slower, thirstier and heavier than the 2.0 T-series they used in the 400, especially when you factored in the fact it only came as an auto. I had a 620ti which was a real sleeper car. 200bhp turbo engine but almost identical to the basic 1.8 visually.... THAT is the engine they should have offered in this (and the ZS version) for that express armchair experience to upset a few hot hatch drivers. The chassis had potential, as the MG versions proved. And all things considered I think the looks have aged quite nicely considering its a 23 year old design!
A very under-developed lightweight V6 engine - shame it wasn't improved or made into a larger 3.0 version.
Love my zt 190, great video as usual.
Wasn't it Phoenix consortium that sank MG Rover?
Would be nice to see you get hold of a Rover 600, always liked the 620ti
Maybe a idea for a future vid the Phoenix consortium what went on
Definitely - needs some research though
@JayEmm on Cars If I'm right the court case finished not long ago
I own a V6 75 which I bought for 450quid. Mind you it did need a bit of work but nothing major. Ridiculous how underappreciated Rovers are. The 75s at least are starting to get more attention.
We have a 2001 diesel 'Classic' that used to be a 'Y' reg (it's now on French plates) and we've had hardly any bother with it. Oh, apart from it shredding its timing belt, but that was my fault for not changing it in time. I thought it might have been a write off, but friends got hold of a second hand head and brought it back here from the UK. I got it back on the road for 350 euros, and it runs well. Not much rust due to no use of salt on the roads, All in all, it's cost very little in repairs and we're very pleased with it. It looks shabby thanks to the door panels & roof liner fabric shrinking, but as a second 'run about' car, it'll do for s while methinks.
Before it we had a 400 diesel hatch. And before that, a '93 Maestro diesel. All great cars. Our main vehicle now is a new Dacia Sandero, and I like to see that bugger last 20+ years! Great vids!
The Rover 200 R8 I think its one of the best cars, rover ever did
I was always a fan of the Rover brand. I adored the P6 which was a very popular car when I was a kid and the design of the SD1 made me drool. I wasn't much of a fan of the cars that were Honda based but as for the 75; loved it and still do to this day.
I always had a thing for the 220, and 220 coupe models, I once tried to race a 220 turbo in my mk2 astra 1.4 and that thing shot off like i was standing still haha. There was a red 220 convertible round the corner i would always eye up when i was out on my bike, always thought they were pretty classy for what they were.
Having driven a 220 Turbo that was on test at the time I can confirm that they would show most cars at the time a clean pair of heels and the thing cornered like it was on rails… a very underrated car!
I really don’t get why MG Rover got so much hate.
The build quality has been fine in all the ones we’ve had and the Honda Civic EP2 I had was much more flimsy and plasticy feeling than my ZS 180 although the MK1 dash does look outdated.
And yeah the K series headgasket stuff but if it’s fixed properly it shouldn’t happen again if you actually look after the car.
But apart from that they were good cars that are very fun to drive (The MGs I cant say about the Rovers)
I have driven a ZS 180, and it was fantastic, but the ride was a bit firm for me and they don't have cruise control, so this is better for the longer journeys as well as just being a bit more understated. As James says, appreciably less power than the ZS 180s (the automatic gearbox doesn't help either), but the ride and handling setup is still excellent, just not quite with the edge the ZS 180 has. Don't expect any better fuel economy, though!
My first proper car was a Rover 75 (diesel). Nicely refined, if somewhat unreliable. I miss it, in many ways.
my aunt had a couple rovers as a kid, i almost managed to buy her old 45 last month when it came up but couldnt scrape together the funds. i need to have one at some point. all mgrovers just tickle that weird car itch in my brain
I do remember being at some traffic lights several years ago in golf 2.0 litre (non gti) and I wasn’t planning to race and that v6 pulled up with some rev happy driver, but wow to watch this thing stutter away then barely made it 400m before the car was consumed with smoke and Came to an immediate stop. The guy that got out was fuming short arse was so funny to watch in my rear view mirror.
I don’t mind the mirrors on it.
Bittersweet indeed. The Rover 75 was (still is) quite the looker. Well it lives on to some extent in China as the Roewe and MG cars. Perhaps it would be interesting to drive some of these British-Chinese cars and see how much Britishness they still have in them
James actually drove our 2014 MG3 on his channel back in 2019!
@@lloydvehicleconsulting sweet!
I've heard a lot of good things said about the ride/handling/suspension setups in later Rovers - my understanding is that lacking the funds to properly engineer a new car/platform, they just spent time tweaking, tuning and adjusting the existing models until they were properly creamy.
Father in law had a Rover 820I and a Rover 600 both decent things
had the 25 , and tbh it was built very well but as mentioned headgasket failure soon creeped in , but had the head sorted and it ran for many years fault free , the car was solid 💪