me too, sadly she is to buisy to have much activity on her own channel, but every time she showes up somewhere else, we get great connections unearthed and unique interpretation of details ^^
Let’s sacrifice the person who disliked this to the WW ... serious? WTF? This was amazing! We love Amanda and we want a whole lot more of her on your show, you two together mesh really well together! Thank you!
A detail I think just got unnoticed After watching Disputed Lands’ video on King’s Blood, I realized if GRRM really used The Golden Bough as inspiration/source material, then a vital concept would have been the sacrifice of a sacred king in times of crisis In fact, I think the World Book even mentions that Pentos would elect a Prince who would in times of crisis be sacrificed. What I’m getting at is that’s it’s possible the Prince That Was Promised prophecy might entail the sacrifice of the prophesied hero to avert disaster, which MIGHT play a role in why the Valyrian Freehold didn’t have royalty I imagine they had a protocol in the face of imminent icy doom where the great dragonlords would meet to elect a Prince which was nominally an honor but mostly there to sacrifice if shit look grim I imagine it was basically “better you than me” or “one two three NOT IT”
2 of my favorite ASOIAF creators. I've been seeing ASOIAF a little bit differently lately with the current real world events, and GRRMs feelings about real life, things in his day continuing to now. One of the things you guys hit on about prophecy and my feelings of real life, laws, and events have me re imagining GRRMs POV and the way this and his World works.
I think the woman with the pale fire beside Euron is actually a personified version of Viserion. I think it's pretty evident that in the show the Night King took on some of Euron's role and since Euron has Dragonbinder I do think there is a big possibility he will wind up with Viserion as his own. I do like the idea that the woman may just be who Euron imagines Daenerys to be though, because yes, the rumors about her aren't pretty. He's going to be pretty disappointed when he meets Dany. :P
A theory I have that probably isn't new: what if Dany has her soul revived inside of Drogon? Similarly, what if Jon ends up in the North, but his soul returns to Ghost's body after the wars. It feels like it would satisfy a lot of prophecies, as well as being somewhat poetic. Jon lives free of humans' rule and becomes a wild, natural representation of the fire and ice of nature. Likewise, Dany becoming a dragon would be the final culmination of the Targaryens, becoming an actual dragon like so many of them dreamed of. She could then be free of the "chains" of man's rule and become a living representation of fire in nature. It would also sort of reunite her with Drogo, healing the moon, etc. Ice and fire return to the Earth, away from man's reach. Just a thought I've had lately.
4:33 Amanda may be becoming prophetic: maybe you can tell us what you see of TWOW in the flames, or the answer to all our ASOIAF questions! Maybe the reason Maekar's children were so much into prophecy and had prophetic dreams was because of their Dayne mother (who could have taught them something), and/or being the product of two magical blood lines (the Targaryens and Daynes) [long question bellow, sorry 🤓] I have a question that occurred to me whilst you were talking about whether prophecies were self-fulfilling: do you think that when a prophecy is made it imediately establishes a timeline or a path that will happen beat by beat until it's fulfilled? in this case, such timeline would include the different actions people make to fulfill or escape the prophecy - like that man during the war of the roses avoiding that castle; or the different Targaryens doing all their shenanigans to fulfil the prophecy, fail to do so, but indirectly allowing the birth of Jon, and thus ultimately contributing to the fulfilment of the prophecy. or do you think that the prophecy, when stated, creates a specific end-point but not the path to get there? in this case, assuming that Jon is TPTWP just for the sake of the argument, the prophecy would dictate that Jon specifically would be TPTWP or maybe just someone that was the product of ice and fire; however the journey to get to the actual PTWP was not pre-determined, so it could've happened during the dance of the dragons, and many other Targaryens tryed to fulfill it without success, but by being unsuccessful they created a timeline that would eventually lead to Jon being born. So, like Matt said, no one truly new how to manipulate the Targaryen family tree, they were trying to find the same answer and by doing so enabled the birth of Jon. My problem with the first option is that it's too deterministic; where's the power of choice, of character growth? What if Bran hadn't fell of the tower, would Bloodraven still be able to open his third eye, and more importantly, would Bran want to leave Winterfel or go to the North, since he wasn't handicaped (you may remember that the first thing Bran asks of Bloodraven in the cave is that if he can make him walk again; it kind of implies that part of Bran's motivation to go North was connected to not being able to walk, and essentially having to be stuck in his body with his dreams). What if Jon hadn't gone to the Wall, or if Ned hadn't allowed the Stark children to keep the direwolves, or if Jon had grown to be less dutiful and honorable? What if Khal Drogo hadn't died, would Daenarys still hatch her eggs? It's not just about having the right magical blood, it's also about having the right temperament and character to be the hero. Daeron the drunk had dreams but he didn't do anything useful with it (except describing them for Aemon to write them down, possibly). Rhaegar on the other hand, with or without dreams, tryed to do something about it - their different attitudes towards prophecy stem from their differences as individuals. We have to have this magical heroes, i guess, because the prophecies say so (and also because of the nature of the war for the Dawn). However, were there prophecies as well, before and/or during the first Long Night? It seems like it came unexpectedly, and people had to deal with it, and that in that extraordinary time some people rose to the ocasion and became the heroes that mankind needed; and after they overcame the Long Night, maybe knowing it would happen again, or not being completely sure whether their victory was final, temporary or conditional on some agreed terms, they created this stories of future heroes, that then become myths and prophecies. And because they were believed in, eventually people made actions that led to their fulfilment - so the prophecy instead of being self-fulfilling, it's fulfilled because you want it to be. So maybe, maybe, if Bran, Jon and Daenarys hadn't come out as they did someone else with have risen to the occasion and fill the roles that they will have - or maybe mankind would just be destroyed; or this Long Night would last a generation like the last one (instead of only a few weeks or months, as some in the fandom suggest this will be) because it needed more time to find/develop the right heroes (just like Bran, Jon and Daenerys have and will continue to have specific developments of their powers that will allow them to defeat the Others and end the Long Night). I hope I made myself clear 😅
An excellent podcast! I love anything with Crowfood’s Daughter. Her videos are so interesting and I always learn new things from watching them. I have just a couple of observations I wanted to share after listening to this podcast. First, at one point someone asked “How can you cause a disease to happen?” when talking about Bloodraven’s machinations. This gave me pause in relation to current conspiracy theories in today’s news. I wonder how much GRRM’s use of things like “the grey plague” greyscale will increase due to his writing parts of Winds during the time of Covid 19? Secondly, as much as I am intrigued by Joe Magician’s theory of an ancient vision of Dany influencing acts by certain Targaryens over time , including the creation of the Targaryen sigil of the three headed dragon, isn’t the more likely inspiration for the sigil Aegon and his two sister wives? You pointed out that the sigil was created to fit into Westeros customs. And everyone would have been strongly aware of Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys at this time.
I think if Covid inspires GRRM in any way is by him making the greyscale outbreak worse or more believable, since he can take inspiration on how we are reacting. It's a great coincidence for his story, it will almost seem that he based it on reality or predicted it. I agree with you on the Targaryen sigil issue. As cool as it sounds people being inspired by visions of the future, I prefer the idea that if not all, at least a lot of the visions are actually from the past and that they interpret them as being from the future. The idea of them actually seing something of the future is too deterministic for my taste, I prefer the idea that it seems deterministic because of the cyclicity of Life, and thus History. On the other hand, I just remembered that the Ghost of Highheart's visions predicted exactly the future, and were so specific that I doubt they could've been from the past. So...now I'm conflicted. Maybe there's a difference between visions from dragon dreams and visions that stem from the power of the weirwoods?
The Loras report from Dragonstone has always felt weird to me...I think it’ll be similar to the report about Davos...because I don’t see the reason we’re left on a cliffhanger for Loras...having him linger there with these horrible injuries just feels pointless, so I think there’s more to it than we’re told...
I agree. I said during the stream that I think it's a misdirect to Cersei. I'm not sure if Margery even know's what's going on, but I think he will be back and not burned...
If GRRM has any say in whether the prophecy in HOTD is real then there can be a case for Dany legit being an inspiration for the creation of the Targaryen sigil.
Hello! I love anagrams. I looked at the name DAENERYS and noticed it has the letters for DAYNE and SER. could Dany’s mom have had an affair with SER Arthur DAYNE and in turn named her daughter for him? making Dany a DAYNE HEIRESS. it’s right there when you say DAYNE HEIRESS aloud. It makes sense to me. What does everyone think? Hey also when you mix up the letters in ARTHUR you can get a name that sounds a lot like RAYDER ...see it’s RHATUR. See it. You could say it like saying RAYDER. I wonder if MANCE is Arthur Dayne....
Kerri Rae agreed. In the clash of kings book prologue there is a mention of a “Dalla” being at Dragonstone. Shireen says she “Dalla” was standing by the well talking about the comet with a man named Maurice. It’s on page 5, I think. It makes me think that is the same Dalla we meet with Mance Rayder up North. It also makes me think that well at Dragonstone COULD be another secret entrance like the well at the red keep that Arya hears Varys and Illyrio using and the well at the Night Fort that Bran uses after seeing Sam And Gilly using it. It also makes me think Dalla is actually Queen Rhaella and she never died when they said she did and possibly ran off with Arthur Dayne. I think the reason the Dayne family admires Ned Stark is because he saved Arthur Dayne and that there was a whole lot more baby swapping going on than we all thought. There is also a mystery green braided girl that Arianne Martell speaks to her father about. This green braid girl was said to have been playing at the water garden with Arianne and the sand snakes as children. THEN we meet mystery green braid girl Wylla at White Harbour being hidden by Wyman Manderly. Hmmm. Then we have Val....who are these mystery girls and was there a birth of twin or triplets that needed to be scurried off, separated and hidden from say Robert Baratheon who wanted all dragon spawn killed!!! A set of twins and a set of triplets and a lone son would match the number of Direwolf puppies found by the stark children. Killed by a stag (their mother) maybe that invoked more of a blast from the past for Ned than we all originally thought !!!
Kerri Rae oh yes cuz mance is a reference to necromancy which is sort of like living after death. So if the rayder part is a play on a humbling of the letters in Arthur and mance is a reference to the living dead. It says it’s SER Arthur Dayne life after his so called “death”
It's completely obvious why the high septon went and prayed for 7 days and presented it as a divine revelation. The seven-pointed star clearly said it was wrong it was clearly a violation of their religion and they are not supposed to value their lives above their religion. According to his own religion he was supposed to do what the next high septon did to Anys and Maegor and if he didn't he would have people calling him the high lickspittle. However, because he lied and presented it as a revelation from one of the seven, one of their very gods, none dared to argue with it. He wanted to avoid destruction and not lay down his life and be a hypocrite but not truly acknowledge it still keep his position and have no dissent. Religious people nowadays are just as fake
Really, Joe? You don’t know what Rhaegar did with Lyanna? Well, is not like one of them had too much experience on that matter but we got a long faced Jon in the end, won’t we?
Joe Magician , it was when you started to discuss Rhaegar and the way you formulated you first phrase about this lead to this mischevious comment. Mischevious in a nuce way. No offence intended. I enjoy very much your streams - unfortunately not always able to watch them live or even in one go. And I like your archaelogical take on GRRM work, unlike most people in the fandom who are trying to fit their theories into THE story. You are a great delight until such times George will give us TWOW.
I disagree that Bloodraven knew Egg would become king. I don’t think he had any future knowledge until he physically plugged into the weirwood trees. He could skinchange and he was clever, but at that time couldn’t see the future.
Disputed lands has the best analysis of asoiaf, really love her ❤️
me too, sadly she is to buisy to have much activity on her own channel, but every time she showes up somewhere else, we get great connections unearthed and unique interpretation of details ^^
Let’s sacrifice the person who disliked this to the WW ... serious? WTF?
This was amazing! We love Amanda and we want a whole lot more of her on your show, you two together mesh really well together!
Thank you!
A detail I think just got unnoticed
After watching Disputed Lands’ video on King’s Blood, I realized if GRRM really used The Golden Bough as inspiration/source material, then a vital concept would have been the sacrifice of a sacred king in times of crisis
In fact, I think the World Book even mentions that Pentos would elect a Prince who would in times of crisis be sacrificed.
What I’m getting at is that’s it’s possible the Prince That Was Promised prophecy might entail the sacrifice of the prophesied hero to avert disaster, which MIGHT play a role in why the Valyrian Freehold didn’t have royalty
I imagine they had a protocol in the face of imminent icy doom where the great dragonlords would meet to elect a Prince which was nominally an honor but mostly there to sacrifice if shit look grim
I imagine it was basically “better you than me” or “one two three NOT IT”
2 of my favorite ASOIAF creators.
I've been seeing ASOIAF a little bit differently lately with the current real world events, and GRRMs feelings about real life, things in his day continuing to now. One of the things you guys hit on about prophecy and my feelings of real life, laws, and events have me re imagining GRRMs POV and the way this and his World works.
I think the woman with the pale fire beside Euron is actually a personified version of Viserion. I think it's pretty evident that in the show the Night King took on some of Euron's role and since Euron has Dragonbinder I do think there is a big possibility he will wind up with Viserion as his own. I do like the idea that the woman may just be who Euron imagines Daenerys to be though, because yes, the rumors about her aren't pretty. He's going to be pretty disappointed when he meets Dany. :P
Illyrio giving Dany the eggs has been bugging me for the longest lol!!! Thanks for bringing it up...glad to know I didn’t just miss something lol...
Maybe they know only females hatch dragons
She is way prettier than I expected
Our homegirl Amanda and Joe RR Magician!! So glad to see this and wished I coulda caught it live. Thanks for this nightcap after a long week.
You'll get it next time
Could sheepstealer hint at valaryan background as shepherds
This is the kind of content im here for
I am so glad my question got asked on this one!
No one asks the real hard questions. Like what color red is red.
A theory I have that probably isn't new: what if Dany has her soul revived inside of Drogon? Similarly, what if Jon ends up in the North, but his soul returns to Ghost's body after the wars. It feels like it would satisfy a lot of prophecies, as well as being somewhat poetic. Jon lives free of humans' rule and becomes a wild, natural representation of the fire and ice of nature. Likewise, Dany becoming a dragon would be the final culmination of the Targaryens, becoming an actual dragon like so many of them dreamed of. She could then be free of the "chains" of man's rule and become a living representation of fire in nature. It would also sort of reunite her with Drogo, healing the moon, etc. Ice and fire return to the Earth, away from man's reach. Just a thought I've had lately.
4:33 Amanda may be becoming prophetic: maybe you can tell us what you see of TWOW in the flames, or the answer to all our ASOIAF questions!
Maybe the reason Maekar's children were so much into prophecy and had prophetic dreams was because of their Dayne mother (who could have taught them something), and/or being the product of two magical blood lines (the Targaryens and Daynes)
[long question bellow, sorry 🤓]
I have a question that occurred to me whilst you were talking about whether prophecies were self-fulfilling: do you think that when a prophecy is made it imediately establishes a timeline or a path that will happen beat by beat until it's fulfilled? in this case, such timeline would include the different actions people make to fulfill or escape the prophecy - like that man during the war of the roses avoiding that castle; or the different Targaryens doing all their shenanigans to fulfil the prophecy, fail to do so, but indirectly allowing the birth of Jon, and thus ultimately contributing to the fulfilment of the prophecy.
or
do you think that the prophecy, when stated, creates a specific end-point but not the path to get there? in this case, assuming that Jon is TPTWP just for the sake of the argument, the prophecy would dictate that Jon specifically would be TPTWP or maybe just someone that was the product of ice and fire; however the journey to get to the actual PTWP was not pre-determined, so it could've happened during the dance of the dragons, and many other Targaryens tryed to fulfill it without success, but by being unsuccessful they created a timeline that would eventually lead to Jon being born. So, like Matt said, no one truly new how to manipulate the Targaryen family tree, they were trying to find the same answer and by doing so enabled the birth of Jon.
My problem with the first option is that it's too deterministic; where's the power of choice, of character growth? What if Bran hadn't fell of the tower, would Bloodraven still be able to open his third eye, and more importantly, would Bran want to leave Winterfel or go to the North, since he wasn't handicaped (you may remember that the first thing Bran asks of Bloodraven in the cave is that if he can make him walk again; it kind of implies that part of Bran's motivation to go North was connected to not being able to walk, and essentially having to be stuck in his body with his dreams). What if Jon hadn't gone to the Wall, or if Ned hadn't allowed the Stark children to keep the direwolves, or if Jon had grown to be less dutiful and honorable? What if Khal Drogo hadn't died, would Daenarys still hatch her eggs? It's not just about having the right magical blood, it's also about having the right temperament and character to be the hero. Daeron the drunk had dreams but he didn't do anything useful with it (except describing them for Aemon to write them down, possibly). Rhaegar on the other hand, with or without dreams, tryed to do something about it - their different attitudes towards prophecy stem from their differences as individuals.
We have to have this magical heroes, i guess, because the prophecies say so (and also because of the nature of the war for the Dawn). However, were there prophecies as well, before and/or during the first Long Night? It seems like it came unexpectedly, and people had to deal with it, and that in that extraordinary time some people rose to the ocasion and became the heroes that mankind needed; and after they overcame the Long Night, maybe knowing it would happen again, or not being completely sure whether their victory was final, temporary or conditional on some agreed terms, they created this stories of future heroes, that then become myths and prophecies. And because they were believed in, eventually people made actions that led to their fulfilment - so the prophecy instead of being self-fulfilling, it's fulfilled because you want it to be.
So maybe, maybe, if Bran, Jon and Daenarys hadn't come out as they did someone else with have risen to the occasion and fill the roles that they will have - or maybe mankind would just be destroyed; or this Long Night would last a generation like the last one (instead of only a few weeks or months, as some in the fandom suggest this will be) because it needed more time to find/develop the right heroes (just like Bran, Jon and Daenerys have and will continue to have specific developments of their powers that will allow them to defeat the Others and end the Long Night).
I hope I made myself clear 😅
Bravo joe and Amanda! Another great video guys. Stay safe for the night is dark and full of corona!!!
Thanks! You too!
An excellent podcast! I love anything with Crowfood’s Daughter. Her videos are so interesting and I always learn new things from watching them. I have just a couple of observations I wanted to share after listening to this podcast. First, at one point someone asked “How can you cause a disease to happen?” when talking about Bloodraven’s machinations. This gave me pause in relation to current conspiracy theories in today’s news. I wonder how much GRRM’s use of things like “the grey plague” greyscale will increase due to his writing parts of Winds during the time of Covid 19? Secondly, as much as I am intrigued by Joe Magician’s theory of an ancient vision of Dany influencing acts by certain Targaryens over time , including the creation of the Targaryen sigil of the three headed dragon, isn’t the more likely inspiration for the sigil Aegon and his two sister wives? You pointed out that the sigil was created to fit into Westeros customs. And everyone would have been strongly aware of Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys at this time.
I think if Covid inspires GRRM in any way is by him making the greyscale outbreak worse or more believable, since he can take inspiration on how we are reacting. It's a great coincidence for his story, it will almost seem that he based it on reality or predicted it.
I agree with you on the Targaryen sigil issue. As cool as it sounds people being inspired by visions of the future, I prefer the idea that if not all, at least a lot of the visions are actually from the past and that they interpret them as being from the future. The idea of them actually seing something of the future is too deterministic for my taste, I prefer the idea that it seems deterministic because of the cyclicity of Life, and thus History.
On the other hand, I just remembered that the Ghost of Highheart's visions predicted exactly the future, and were so specific that I doubt they could've been from the past. So...now I'm conflicted. Maybe there's a difference between visions from dragon dreams and visions that stem from the power of the weirwoods?
I bet if it inspires him at all, it will be that people with greyscale refuse to wear a mask or social distance.
The Loras report from Dragonstone has always felt weird to me...I think it’ll be similar to the report about Davos...because I don’t see the reason we’re left on a cliffhanger for Loras...having him linger there with these horrible injuries just feels pointless, so I think there’s more to it than we’re told...
Yeah. When I read that part in AFFC I assumed it was a false report made to relieve Loras to go fight in the Mander to defend it from the Ironborn.
I agree. I said during the stream that I think it's a misdirect to Cersei.
I'm not sure if Margery even know's what's going on, but I think he will be back and not burned...
11 misfortunes for Egg to rule? I feel like that was definitely influenced by bloodraven. Even if he was taking wild shots in the dark.
Omg I'm so excited you got disputed lands on this stream!
She's the best :)
If GRRM has any say in whether the prophecy in HOTD is real then there can be a case for Dany legit being an inspiration for the creation of the Targaryen sigil.
I like knew what you were referencing. But I was like no... they get no dragons lol
Hello! I love anagrams. I looked at the name DAENERYS and noticed it has the letters for DAYNE and SER. could Dany’s mom have had an affair with SER Arthur DAYNE and in turn named her daughter for him? making Dany a DAYNE HEIRESS. it’s right there when you say DAYNE HEIRESS aloud. It makes sense to me. What does everyone think? Hey also when you mix up the letters in ARTHUR you can get a name that sounds a lot like RAYDER ...see it’s RHATUR. See it. You could say it like saying RAYDER. I wonder if MANCE is Arthur Dayne....
I definitely think Mance is Arthur Dayne
Kerri Rae agreed. In the clash of kings book prologue there is a mention of a “Dalla” being at Dragonstone. Shireen says she “Dalla” was standing by the well talking about the comet with a man named Maurice. It’s on page 5, I think. It makes me think that is the same Dalla we meet with Mance Rayder up North. It also makes me think that well at Dragonstone COULD be another secret entrance like the well at the red keep that Arya hears Varys and Illyrio using and the well at the Night Fort that Bran uses after seeing Sam And Gilly using it. It also makes me think Dalla is actually Queen Rhaella and she never died when they said she did and possibly ran off with Arthur Dayne. I think the reason the Dayne family admires Ned Stark is because he saved Arthur Dayne and that there was a whole lot more baby swapping going on than we all thought. There is also a mystery green braided girl that Arianne Martell speaks to her father about. This green braid girl was said to have been playing at the water garden with Arianne and the sand snakes as children. THEN we meet mystery green braid girl Wylla at White Harbour being hidden by Wyman Manderly. Hmmm. Then we have Val....who are these mystery girls and was there a birth of twin or triplets that needed to be scurried off, separated and hidden from say Robert Baratheon who wanted all dragon spawn killed!!! A set of twins and a set of triplets and a lone son would match the number of Direwolf puppies found by the stark children. Killed by a stag (their mother) maybe that invoked more of a blast from the past for Ned than we all originally thought !!!
Kerri Rae oh yes cuz mance is a reference to necromancy which is sort of like living after death. So if the rayder part is a play on a humbling of the letters in Arthur and mance is a reference to the living dead. It says it’s SER Arthur Dayne life after his so called “death”
Maybe Melisandre sees Stannis as Azhor Ahai is because she will use Stannis to resurrect John?
I see Daenerys and I click
Jokes on you, that's Daeneys the Dreamer!
Start at 3:10
Or at 5:20
It's completely obvious why the high septon went and prayed for 7 days and presented it as a divine revelation. The seven-pointed star clearly said it was wrong it was clearly a violation of their religion and they are not supposed to value their lives above their religion. According to his own religion he was supposed to do what the next high septon did to Anys and Maegor and if he didn't he would have people calling him the high lickspittle. However, because he lied and presented it as a revelation from one of the seven, one of their very gods, none dared to argue with it. He wanted to avoid destruction and not lay down his life and be a hypocrite but not truly acknowledge it still keep his position and have no dissent. Religious people nowadays are just as fake
Sound and image are dissynchonized
Oh yeah weird. Wasn't like that a few days ago.... Appreciate the heads up
Bad wolf!
Really, Joe? You don’t know what Rhaegar did with Lyanna? Well, is not like one of them had too much experience on that matter but we got a long faced Jon in the end, won’t we?
Sorry what is this in reference to?
Joe Magician , it was when you started to discuss Rhaegar and the way you formulated you first phrase about this lead to this mischevious comment. Mischevious in a nuce way. No offence intended. I enjoy very much your streams - unfortunately not always able to watch them live or even in one go. And I like your archaelogical take on GRRM work, unlike most people in the fandom who are trying to fit their theories into THE story. You are a great delight until such times George will give us TWOW.
OH alright, I was confused haha. Like obviously they had Jon.
You can’t trust prophecy. Have you learned nothing from George ??
*looks at fandom* no
You think you learned something and then George throws a curve ball.
I disagree that Bloodraven knew Egg would become king. I don’t think he had any future knowledge until he physically plugged into the weirwood trees. He could skinchange and he was clever, but at that time couldn’t see the future.
Was this out of sync or was it just me?
Try refreshing, it's a youtube problem recently