For a woman with such inherent ego, it had to sting that both the man she wanted and the one she didn't want wanted Lyanna Stark more than they wanted her. Ouch.
It’s ironic, Robert loved a corpse that Rhaegar indirectly killed & Cersei loves a corpse, who Robert had killed. That was a doomed marriage from the start, Cersei has that much right.
It’s as if Rhaegar is the embodiment of Melisandre’s glamor command: everyone saw and believed something different yet were unable to feel negatively about him. What an interesting latent ability.
Thank you Matt for the stream as always . I think Cersie constantly thinking of ellia and lyanna comes from her narcissistic personality. She isn't thinking about them but more why they were picked over her.. and good catch on her twincest starting ad a response to her rejection. You have such a great eye for catching things like that man and that is why I will always be coming back to your streams even on topics I feel I know well
as in he self fulfilled his own prophecy, absolutely. GRRM start writing AGOT in what 1991 i honestly wouldnt even be surprised if he took some of that early 90s angst
Rhaegar was born in 259 at Summerhall, Cerci (like her twin Jamie) was 16 during the Tourney at Harrenhal in 279, so she was born in 263. That makes the age gap between them only 4 years, not 12. Clearly, Rhaegar never thought much of Cerci, but age was not the reason. Possibly, he refused to marry her in order to create the rift between Aerys and his most effective ally, Tywin.
The years felt off when I said it yeah. According to the wiki, Jaime and Cersei were born in 266 making it a 7 year gap. The point I was trying to make was that while Cersei hero worshipped Rhaegar, he had almost no personal interactions with her. She doesn't recount any conversations, or them going riding on horses, or anything like that. And part of that could've been that when Tywin was trying to arrange the marriage she was still fairly young, between 6 and 10 while he would've been in his teens. Would've been less of a problem later with both adults, but at the time can see why Rhaegar may not have wanted to interact with the much younger superfan trying to marry him.
Joe Magician I think your larger point is right, though the only person Cersei truly loves is herself, and even then only maybe. You’ve now got me thinking about her feelings being similar to how Sansa fantasized about Joffrey early on. Do you think it’s possible that’s one reason Cersei resented her? Because it reminded her of how she pined for Rheagar? Or is it that she thought that Sansa was the younger one who was prophesied to replace her?
Jaime lacks Barristan and Connington frustration when thinking about Rhaegar. He seems happy with their level of friendship and doesn’t think he could have done something to prevent the war. We know Rhaegar trusted him to the point of sharing some of his plans with him before leaving. Were they friends? Jamie, who actually did something to end the war, dreams of Rhaegar and dreams of his Mother and in both dreams we can feel a Level of guilt, but not the “o, I could have done something and prevent it all” kind of guilt.
@@monaradu5165 unless you count his weirwood dream where we see he totaly has some deep felt regret concerning Rhegar due to failing to protect his wife and children from his own family . . . That one messed him up pretty badly and his bouts of feeling guilty and his attempt to absolve them usualy revolve around this time not letting children pay for the quarrel their parents are in . . .
@@SingingSealRiana “The brazier warmed a chamber at the bottom of a shaft where half a dozen tunnels met. On the floor he'd found a scuffed mosaic of the three-headed dragon of House Targaryen done in tiles of black and red. I know you, Kingslayer, the beast seemed to be saying. I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me. And it seemed to Jaime that he knew that voice, the iron tones that had once belonged to Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone.” AFFC, Jamie I
@@SingingSealRiana Barry and Jon Con guilt with regards to Rhaegar is for all the wrong reasons. That might be because they will both end on the side of Rhaegar’s fake son. Jamie guilt is genuine and might play a role if he will be in the position to deffend Rhaegar’s true son.
Jamie seems to have been in good terms with Rhaegar and he doesn’t think about him as a romantic character. He has a good amount of guilt in regards with what happend with Rhaegar’s family, but even so, he had one of the truest relation with the Prince of Dragonstone and doesn’t suffer of the “I never knew him trully” syndrome.
1:44:15 - omg, OK, thank you for touching on this subject. I really have to open this up to everyone! This is a plot point that has been driving me crazy for years: Why did the KGs have to fight Ned's crew immediately, to the death!? Why was it so clear between them that they had to draw swords the moment they met? (Ned's hallucinatory memory at least paints it this way.) The KG are there because they know the baby is royalty, but they also know Lyanna is up there, and they know Ned is the baby's uncle! Did they really think Ned would harm his own nephew?? Even though he's on the Rebellion side, why not talk more? It goes straight to violence and it's super clear to everyone there that's what has to go down. Is this part of the mystery of the ToJ, or am I just a big dummy that's missing something that everyone understands?
1:18:00 Oh god, Connington snapping at the sound of the bells. Just imagine if the TV show got the broadstrokes but it was Connington who burned the city *but* Daenerys got the blame for it….
Oberyn hates Rhaegar. He says he would hunt him through the 7 hells, or something similar, for what he did to Elia. Which makes me think Rhaegar did divorced Elia, as Oberyn would be the last to complain about an affair.
@@JoeMagician oh man SO MANY OF THEM! i love your theory videos and the ones with a niche subject that most people dont think about. If you ever wanna discuss theory shoot me a line!
59:51 - but it's not just the public perception not matching his true, inner nature. It seems that even people in his private life didn't truly know him. No one was let in by him. He seems to have been very private across the board. I think Arthur Dayne knew his true intentions more than most, second only to Maester Aemon perhaps.
Does not feel to me like that or was there something in the books I missed about him trying to force Rhegar into submitting into his delusion? Erotomania is a lot about thinking you are destined to be togeather and the delusion the other feels the same . . . Connington apears very aware of his feelings beeing unrequited and beeing more of a puppy following and idolising Rhegar anyway instead of . . . Obducting and drugging the object of his obcession "for their own good"
@@SingingSealRiana There are levels of madness in any delusion. The erotomanic doesn’t just invent a world of delusion straight away, they build one. Give Jon Con enough time and Rhaegar will end bound and gagged.
I think Rhaegar could wear a wig , put on some rags and maybe at night his eyes could look darker...maybe do an accent or something. Maybe Rhaegar had many disguises like varys just to play his harp
RE: Valyrian steel. If it's made with human souls, then what happens when the sword is reforged. E.g. ICE. And is it one person per item? So one soul per a full set of armour and one person for a dagger?
I have the thought that Ned was his true father, maybe not by direct blood, but he was jons father. I love Ned as a character, I was sad to see him go.
1:48:11 - totally agree that human sacrifice is needed to make Valyrian steel. All Valyrian magic is rooted in fire and blood. My follow-up question would be: what do you think that means, if anything, about the sword Dawn? Is it magic from the stars, that did not require death? It's pure and true? Also, do you think the Qohori, who came closest to figuring out the steel, are doing anything violent or corrupting in order to work it?
Probably just a sword made from meteorite in a similar way to Valyrian steel. Yes, the Qohor probably know that human sacrifice is involved and that's how they make it work. They're well known for blood rituals.
What if Rhaegars rubies in his armour were like Mel's rubies? What if the whole thing was hoax and it wasn't even Rhaegar who died but instead someone who used glamor? It would be stupid to fight being the heir to the throne. What if Rhaegar is still alive or was planning to run away with Lyanna? I know it's only hopefull thinking but those rubies seem important
and all those years in hiding, it never occurred to him to claim Jon from Ned? Or save the realm from Robert? Look for his siblings etc. If he did use a glamour and went though all that trouble in typical GRRM fashion Rhaegar then stubbed his toe on a rock and died for realzies this time, of sepsis. All his plans for naught like Dorne and The Reach's plans.
The rubies are crying glamour but I don’t think Rhaegar was intending to use them in a magical way when he went to the Trydent. But, after he died, somebody with magical knowledge could have used the rubies to glamour somebody’s else for the funeral pyre because George said Rhaegar’s body was burned. Lets go through the evdiences. 1. We have a precedent with another man burned instead of guy with Rhaegar’s vibes - and no, Mance is not Rhaegar, it is just a paralel. As people thought Mance was burned, other people could have been fooled into believing Rhaegar’s body was burned. 2. Who was at the site and had the means to perform the trick? Well, our old friend, Howland Reed. I am sure he knew what to do with rubies, an armour and some dead body from the battle field. It is harder to presume, although, Why he did this and what happen with Rhaegar’s dead body after this. 4. Being dead, even for three days, doesn’t mean you will stay dead in Westeros, as Lady Stoneheart proved us already. 5. AGOT is loaded with referrences of Rhaegar’s returning, from the first time when he is mentioned afterwards. “I killed him only once” complains Robert. “You are in luck Rhaegar is still dead”, jokes Tyrion. People across the realm are talking about rumors of the Prince of Dragonstone coming back with a mighty hoast of ancient heroes in his thrall. Of course, it could be just a referrence to Faegon, as Joe suspects people will like to see their beloved Rhaegar in him, but Rhaegar son was never prince of Dragonstone nor Faegon’s companions could be called heroes.
I don’t think Rhaegar had a choice when he married Elia. Their mothers where friends and the Princess of Dorne drew an advantage of this, especially after Tywin refused to marry his children into Dorne. Rhaegar was dutyful to a fault - they told him: you marry her, so he married her. And I suspect Aerys went for Dorne, as he disliked Rhaegar as much as the rest of Westeros disliked dornishmen.
I'd love to know more about why that match happened, especially with Rhaegar's best friend Arthur having an available sister in Ashara also from Dorne. And that Aerys was a racist against the Dornish.
Joe Magician , Aerys suspected Rhaegar wasn’t his son - and the poor guy was usually right, paranoid, but right. After getting Viserys in 276 and having the certainty of his paternity he probably started planning for getting rid of Rhaegar. It would be interesting to know if, one day, Rhaegar read a scroll and said: well, it seem I have to get married. Whatever the truth, Aerys had a plan when he sent Steffon to look for a Valiryan bride - unless this lady was Patchface Steffon didn’t seem interested to fulfill the task. Had he not drawned, Steffon might still be looking. As for Ashara, we have no clue if the two even liked each other, but the Dayne where too much a minor house for a Crown prince, but too much loved in Westeros for Aerys liking. He is reported to have refused to hug Rhaegar’s daughter because she “smelled dornish” - maybe he hoped people will like Rhaegar less with a dornish wife.
@@JoeMagician That might be it right there. Rhaegar already had a strong link to house Dayne, wouldn't a marriage to Ashara be overkill in that department? I cant begin to understand Aerys' motives but I wonder if he backed himself into a corner. He declared Cersei beneath Rhaegar and after the search in the Free Cities producing no suitable matches, he had little choice. It doesn't seem like Dorne was his Aerys' first choice but Elia was a legal "princess" in the realm.
When Rhaegar and Robert fought at the trident, did Rhaegar defeat Robert? I believe Robert did surrender and Rhaegar relaxed and that was when Robert struck him down. And partly explains Robert's bitterness to Rhaegar, Rhaegar was the better fighter and it galled Robert that he had to resort to subterfuge to defeat Rhaegar.
There's nothing saying that, there were a lot of people watching and they all saw Robert beat Rhaegar in a fair fight. Robert's bitterness is that he can kill Rhaegar and still not get back what he had lost. All his strength and prowess with his hammer can't undo the losses he feels.
I'm not a Rhaegar = Mance/anyone else guy but I'm still not 100% that Rhaegar died on the trident. We recently had the Tourney of Harrenhal which served to show us just how formidable Rhaegar was when motivated, besting the likes of a prime Barristan and Arthur Dayne. I'm not saying Robert couldn't beat him, and maybe he did, but I'm not certain. The site of their duel is famously known as the Ruby Ford. This name plus the mention of the rubies in Rhaegars armor multiple times leads me to believe there was a glamor in effect. Maester Aemon knew about glamoring so theres no reason why Rhaegar couldn't as well. Melisandre's glamors and ruby usage as well as the Mance/Rattleshirt switch lays down the "rhyme" George likes the present to have with the past. Perhaps Rhaegar believed his life's work was more important than a crown. His father had another male heir at that point so he could have wanted out and committed fake suicide at the hands of Robert.
jschoma11 , Mance is not Rhaegar 100%, although they might share some DNA. In GOT we have as much four hints Rhaegar will be back - alive, or undead. (And also, in Fire and Blood, we have the infamous: “when the hammer will fall upon the dragon a King will arise and none Shall stand before him”. None... like in No one but this is a story for another day.) Well, since George said Jon story will pay tribute to Star Wars, I got this theory, dead or alive, Rhaegar was somehow got by the Others and he is their current Night King. Even his name means King and no matter how good a person he was, everybody noticed the sense of doom around him. I know this is extreme, although I believe I got solid proof for it, and, in an Universe where dead people don’t stay dead for long, Why would the most dead amongst all stay dead?
@@monaradu5165 In looking at his actions, it just doesn't seem like winning the war against Robert was Rhaegar's goal. He had found his life purpose, right or wrong, in his scrolls. If winning battles is more important than whatever he was up to, why park 3 of the greatest fighters and commanders on tower duty? Rhaegar himself was no slouch and imagine the morale boost for the loyalists if their beloved prince was on the battlefield. It didn't really accomplish anything to leave the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy either. Ned and some friends were able to outmuscle them. A group of 10 war deserters could do the same. Were they really the ultimate security? The truth is we dont know yet exactly what he was trying to accomplish. People can only guess at his motives.
jschoma11 , would it still be fun if we knew everything? To keep the readers entairtained an author has to give them crumbs and make them beg for more. Rhaegar is one of the greatest mistery of the book. He is the singer who puts to notes the song of ice and fire. His final goal is to produce the prince who will save the world, and scrolls are a means to his end. War is just a consequence he has to face so the promissed prince could be borne. We can get this from the crumbs George is feeding us. But we don’t know how he feels nor how much he knows. Does he know he has to die, when he goes to the Trident? All these rubies on his armour cry glamour. And the fact George once said his body was cremated, accounts for little, if for whatever reason Rhaegar was not the one to wear his armour that day. People do believe Mance was burned also, but we know better.
The realm is supposed to believe that Bran is a tree god because he says so? And then take on good faith that his bastard brother Jon is the last true Targaryen heir? I don't think any of it works without some sort of tangible evidence. There has to be something sufficiently convincing if people are to believe such a claim. Whether it be in the crypts or not, Bran's word doesn't get it done alone.
For sure, I was speaking more how it has a major impact on Jon. If he has any comprehension of who his parents were as people beyond just making it so that he has a claim on a throne. The idea of him refusing political power for his ideas of duty to the realm and his personal moral code has been tested once through Stannis, it probably will happen again through RLJ. And the knowledge, or lack thereof, of who Rhaegar was, what his goals and beliefs were, and why he behaved the way he did could be important context for Jon in making the choice between embracing being a Targaryen and being a Stark/Snow.
@@JoeMagician I think Jon turned down Stannis because he hated the idea that bastards are treacherous and less honorable than other men. Plus he had taken the black and wouldn't dishonor himself, almost a nod to Ned(his father at this point). Once his nights watch service is over upon his death, I believe Jon will use whatever means available to him to better the realm and do what is right. If he learns he is Targaryen and having that name will serve him in ending the long night or protecting the realm, so be it. He wont see it as power hunger or a test of his morals, it will be his duty.
jschoma11 , the show virtually killed Jon’s quest for identity. I hope George will save half of book for the big reveal and its aftermath, because that will be such a journey into Jon’s mind. I don’t think the reveal will be only by Bran or even Sam findings. If we can’t have Rhaegar returned, or animated statues of Ned and Lyanna, which would be awesome, uncle Benjen could somehow save the day, as he probably knows Jon true identy and the way his parents hooked up. As long as he is still alive. I suspect Jamie knows more than we suspect and, how his Rhaegar and the Others dream revealed, he feels guilty about not protecting Elia’s kids, now he has the chance to do something nice for Rhaegar third child.
. . . Not so sure, we know basicly nothing about his values, like Dany he was really awesome in makeing others belive in him by believeing the awesome things he aparently said about his values . . .but there seams to be a very strong dissonance between how he was percived, and his actions. He abandoned his people to cause a gigantic war, instead of geathering alliences to overthrough his father for the good of his people . . . Thats why the turned of harrenhal was a thing, but he thought it was a very very good idea to through all good apearance away to give Lyanna the rosecrown . . . Than he rund of with her without any attempt to mitigate or aparently even consider the consequences that would have . . . Than the war started and he was no where to be found until someone draged him where he was supposed to be and than died . . . Where the hell was he, why did he think vanishing with Lyanna was a good idea . . . If sleeping with a girl was more importend to him than thousands of lifes . . .i do not think he holds the moral high ground over Cercei, she at least cared about her children, he did not seem to do that
All this talk of sacrifice for Valyrian steel plus a certain “nobody would do that to their sister” comment made by @TheDisputedLands during the Prophecy Extravaganza concerning how to make dragons has made me connect several dots and reach a very disturbing conclusion about just what purpose the GEotD had in mind for the creation of the Valyrian race….
I really don't think Dorne having a different culture is enough to justify Doran and Oberyn being pro - Rhaegar. There's nothing that indicates the Dornish are OK with publically humiliating your wife by crowning another woman at a widely attended tourney. Nor would they be pleased by Rhaegar complicating Elia's life by running off with a Lord Paramount's daughter who is betrothed to another Lord Paramount! If they tolerated Rhaegar being in Dorne, it wasn't for his sake, but for Elia's and her children's sakes. Their sister was the future Queen, her son the future king - they had every reason to stay loyal to the Targs and still be outraged by Rhaegar's actions on a personal level. If they were somehow ignorant of Rhaegar's whereabouts it could be something George didn't think through early on, not having fleshed out Dorne and the Martells yet. They still had every reason to support the remaining Targs over the Baratheon - Lannister regime given what they did to Elia and her children.
Faceless men are for the many faced god. The reason jacqen says aryan stole 3 lives fro. The red god is because she saved them from fire. If she had saved them from drowning jacqen would have said drowned god. That's my thought at least
I think Tyrion is a Blackfyre. He was conceived the same year things started to get awkward for Tywin and Joanna in King's Landing, while rumors began to surface about Joanna having an affair with Aerys. He's got the dragon dreams, and Varys is very interested in saving his bacon for some reason.
For a woman with such inherent ego, it had to sting that both the man she wanted and the one she didn't want wanted Lyanna Stark more than they wanted her. Ouch.
@@carlterrence7257 whats wrong with you?
It’s ironic, Robert loved a corpse that Rhaegar indirectly killed & Cersei loves a corpse, who Robert had killed. That was a doomed marriage from the start, Cersei has that much right.
It’s as if Rhaegar is the embodiment of Melisandre’s glamor command: everyone saw and believed something different yet were unable to feel negatively about him. What an interesting latent ability.
Rhaegar is "the prince that was promised" to Cersei
😂 oh man no! it's a funny play on words
Best Rhaegar talk I've heard so far
Rhaegar: manic pixie dream gurl.
I love it Joe
Thank you Matt for the stream as always . I think Cersie constantly thinking of ellia and lyanna comes from her narcissistic personality. She isn't thinking about them but more why they were picked over her.. and good catch on her twincest starting ad a response to her rejection. You have such a great eye for catching things like that man and that is why I will always be coming back to your streams even on topics I feel I know well
Rhaegar reminds me, of a Kurt Cobain type.
Does that make Lyanna his Courtney Love?
as in he self fulfilled his own prophecy, absolutely. GRRM start writing AGOT in what 1991 i honestly wouldnt even be surprised if he took some of that early 90s angst
Valyrian Knights yea but i believe it‘s also about his charisma and gentle nature
@@JoeMagician Polly
Smells Like Kings Spirit.
Lame jokes aside I completely agree.
Rhaegar was born in 259 at Summerhall, Cerci (like her twin Jamie) was 16 during the Tourney at Harrenhal in 279, so she was born in 263. That makes the age gap between them only 4 years, not 12. Clearly, Rhaegar never thought much of Cerci, but age was not the reason.
Possibly, he refused to marry her in order to create the rift between Aerys and his most effective ally, Tywin.
The years felt off when I said it yeah. According to the wiki, Jaime and Cersei were born in 266 making it a 7 year gap. The point I was trying to make was that while Cersei hero worshipped Rhaegar, he had almost no personal interactions with her. She doesn't recount any conversations, or them going riding on horses, or anything like that. And part of that could've been that when Tywin was trying to arrange the marriage she was still fairly young, between 6 and 10 while he would've been in his teens. Would've been less of a problem later with both adults, but at the time can see why Rhaegar may not have wanted to interact with the much younger superfan trying to marry him.
Joe Magician I think your larger point is right, though the only person Cersei truly loves is herself, and even then only maybe.
You’ve now got me thinking about her feelings being similar to how Sansa fantasized about Joffrey early on. Do you think it’s possible that’s one reason Cersei resented her? Because it reminded her of how she pined for Rheagar? Or is it that she thought that Sansa was the younger one who was prophesied to replace her?
Nah, the rift was there already and Aerys was the one pushing that Cercei was not good enough
@@jennosyde6903 Cersei only loves herself? What books have you been reading?
-- She loves her children --
@@ClaytonScottRhodes That's a fair point. I was perhaps thinking only of the adults in her life. Conceded.
Wouldn't you dream about rhaegar? Even Jaime thinks about him as prince charming ❤
Jaime lacks Barristan and Connington frustration when thinking about Rhaegar. He seems happy with their level of friendship and doesn’t think he could have done something to prevent the war. We know Rhaegar trusted him to the point of sharing some of his plans with him before leaving. Were they friends? Jamie, who actually did something to end the war, dreams of Rhaegar and dreams of his Mother and in both dreams we can feel a Level of guilt, but not the “o, I could have done something and prevent it all” kind of guilt.
@@monaradu5165 unless you count his weirwood dream where we see he totaly has some deep felt regret concerning Rhegar due to failing to protect his wife and children from his own family . . . That one messed him up pretty badly and his bouts of feeling guilty and his attempt to absolve them usualy revolve around this time not letting children pay for the quarrel their parents are in . . .
@@SingingSealRiana
“The brazier warmed a chamber at the bottom of a shaft where half a dozen tunnels met. On the floor he'd found a scuffed mosaic of the three-headed dragon of House Targaryen done in tiles of black and red. I know you, Kingslayer, the beast seemed to be saying. I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me. And it seemed to Jaime that he knew that voice, the iron tones that had once belonged to Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone.” AFFC, Jamie I
@@SingingSealRiana Barry and Jon Con guilt with regards to Rhaegar is for all the wrong reasons. That might be because they will both end on the side of Rhaegar’s fake son.
Jamie guilt is genuine and might play a role if he will be in the position to deffend Rhaegar’s true son.
@@monaradu5165 I hope grrm do something with that
The polar opposite of pixie dream girl is emo giant nightmare boy...which is an actual description of rhaegar
Hahaha yes true
Jamie seems to have been in good terms with Rhaegar and he doesn’t think about him as a romantic character. He has a good amount of guilt in regards with what happend with Rhaegar’s family, but even so, he had one of the truest relation with the Prince of Dragonstone and doesn’t suffer of the “I never knew him trully” syndrome.
1:44:15 - omg, OK, thank you for touching on this subject. I really have to open this up to everyone!
This is a plot point that has been driving me crazy for years: Why did the KGs have to fight Ned's crew immediately, to the death!? Why was it so clear between them that they had to draw swords the moment they met? (Ned's hallucinatory memory at least paints it this way.)
The KG are there because they know the baby is royalty, but they also know Lyanna is up there, and they know Ned is the baby's uncle! Did they really think Ned would harm his own nephew?? Even though he's on the Rebellion side, why not talk more? It goes straight to violence and it's super clear to everyone there that's what has to go down.
Is this part of the mystery of the ToJ, or am I just a big dummy that's missing something that everyone understands?
surprise comment just because i came back and rewatched the last half hour. thx matt
Great take on a great character. You made my day, thank you very much. 👏👏👏
Glad you enjoyed it!
Catching this on the rewatch today, and still so pumped! You rock @joemagician
1:18:00
Oh god, Connington snapping at the sound of the bells.
Just imagine if the TV show got the broadstrokes but it was Connington who burned the city *but* Daenerys got the blame for it….
Oberyn hates Rhaegar. He says he would hunt him through the 7 hells, or something similar, for what he did to Elia. Which makes me think Rhaegar did divorced Elia, as Oberyn would be the last to complain about an affair.
As far as I can remember, and I may be wrong, but that was a show only thing where Oberyn expressed rage at Rhaegar.
Joe Magician , you might be right.
Haha it happens, it's hard for all of us to hold them both in your head at all times. They bleed over.
Always look forward to your videos!
Very glad you enjoy them, which one is your favorite?
@@JoeMagician oh man SO MANY OF THEM! i love your theory videos and the ones with a niche subject that most people dont think about. If you ever wanna discuss theory shoot me a line!
59:51 - but it's not just the public perception not matching his true, inner nature. It seems that even people in his private life didn't truly know him. No one was let in by him. He seems to have been very private across the board. I think Arthur Dayne knew his true intentions more than most, second only to Maester Aemon perhaps.
Rhaegar and the way he is viewed by everyone around him reminds me a bit of "Being There" :) Except Rhaegar is very aware and active...
Connington’s love for Rhaegar reminds me of a disorder called erotomania.
It's certainly unrequited by all accounts, that's for sure.
uuuh didn't know that had a name, thanks!
That's the second time I've heard of this disorder in a week. That's scary.
Does not feel to me like that or was there something in the books I missed about him trying to force Rhegar into submitting into his delusion? Erotomania is a lot about thinking you are destined to be togeather and the delusion the other feels the same . . . Connington apears very aware of his feelings beeing unrequited and beeing more of a puppy following and idolising Rhegar anyway instead of . . . Obducting and drugging the object of his obcession "for their own good"
@@SingingSealRiana There are levels of madness in any delusion. The erotomanic doesn’t just invent a world of delusion straight away, they build one. Give Jon Con enough time and Rhaegar will end bound and gagged.
Awesome video man!
I think Rhaegar could wear a wig , put on some rags and maybe at night his eyes could look darker...maybe do an accent or something. Maybe Rhaegar had many disguises like varys just to play his harp
Like a shadowy figure singing to the moon, having the time of his life after doing his part?
I like everything about your ASOIAF videos; I've been binge-watching. (Also, if I may, you look cute in your wizard hat).
Berry will change sides because Lemore is Ashara Dayne and he is still obsessed with her.
RE: Valyrian steel. If it's made with human souls, then what happens when the sword is reforged. E.g. ICE. And is it one person per item? So one soul per a full set of armour and one person for a dagger?
One person per part?
I have the thought that Ned was his true father, maybe not by direct blood, but he was jons father. I love Ned as a character, I was sad to see him go.
1:48:11 - totally agree that human sacrifice is needed to make Valyrian steel. All Valyrian magic is rooted in fire and blood. My follow-up question would be: what do you think that means, if anything, about the sword Dawn? Is it magic from the stars, that did not require death? It's pure and true?
Also, do you think the Qohori, who came closest to figuring out the steel, are doing anything violent or corrupting in order to work it?
Probably just a sword made from meteorite in a similar way to Valyrian steel.
Yes, the Qohor probably know that human sacrifice is involved and that's how they make it work. They're well known for blood rituals.
What if Rhaegars rubies in his armour were like Mel's rubies? What if the whole thing was hoax and it wasn't even Rhaegar who died but instead someone who used glamor? It would be stupid to fight being the heir to the throne. What if Rhaegar is still alive or was planning to run away with Lyanna? I know it's only hopefull thinking but those rubies seem important
and all those years in hiding, it never occurred to him to claim Jon from Ned? Or save the realm from Robert? Look for his siblings etc.
If he did use a glamour and went though all that trouble in typical GRRM fashion Rhaegar then stubbed his toe on a rock and died for realzies this time, of sepsis. All his plans for naught like Dorne and The Reach's plans.
The rubies are crying glamour but I don’t think Rhaegar was intending to use them in a magical way when he went to the Trydent. But, after he died, somebody with magical knowledge could have used the rubies to glamour somebody’s else for the funeral pyre because George said Rhaegar’s body was burned. Lets go through the evdiences.
1. We have a precedent with another man burned instead of guy with Rhaegar’s vibes - and no, Mance is not Rhaegar, it is just a paralel. As people thought Mance was burned, other people could have been fooled into believing Rhaegar’s body was burned.
2. Who was at the site and had the means to perform the trick? Well, our old friend, Howland Reed. I am sure he knew what to do with rubies, an armour and some dead body from the battle field. It is harder to presume, although, Why he did this and what happen with Rhaegar’s dead body after this.
4. Being dead, even for three days, doesn’t mean you will stay dead in Westeros, as Lady Stoneheart proved us already.
5. AGOT is loaded with referrences of Rhaegar’s returning, from the first time when he is mentioned afterwards. “I killed him only once” complains Robert. “You are in luck Rhaegar is still dead”, jokes Tyrion. People across the realm are talking about rumors of the Prince of Dragonstone coming back with a mighty hoast of ancient heroes in his thrall. Of course, it could be just a referrence to Faegon, as Joe suspects people will like to see their beloved Rhaegar in him, but Rhaegar son was never prince of Dragonstone nor Faegon’s companions could be called heroes.
I don’t think Rhaegar had a choice when he married Elia. Their mothers where friends and the Princess of Dorne drew an advantage of this, especially after Tywin refused to marry his children into Dorne. Rhaegar was dutyful to a fault - they told him: you marry her, so he married her. And I suspect Aerys went for Dorne, as he disliked Rhaegar as much as the rest of Westeros disliked dornishmen.
I'd love to know more about why that match happened, especially with Rhaegar's best friend Arthur having an available sister in Ashara also from Dorne. And that Aerys was a racist against the Dornish.
Joe Magician , Aerys suspected Rhaegar wasn’t his son - and the poor guy was usually right, paranoid, but right. After getting Viserys in 276 and having the certainty of his paternity he probably started planning for getting rid of Rhaegar. It would be interesting to know if, one day, Rhaegar read a scroll and said: well, it seem I have to get married. Whatever the truth, Aerys had a plan when he sent Steffon to look for a Valiryan bride - unless this lady was Patchface Steffon didn’t seem interested to fulfill the task. Had he not drawned, Steffon might still be looking. As for Ashara, we have no clue if the two even liked each other, but the Dayne where too much a minor house for a Crown prince, but too much loved in Westeros for Aerys liking. He is reported to have refused to hug Rhaegar’s daughter because she “smelled dornish” - maybe he hoped people will like Rhaegar less with a dornish wife.
@@JoeMagician That might be it right there. Rhaegar already had a strong link to house Dayne, wouldn't a marriage to Ashara be overkill in that department?
I cant begin to understand Aerys' motives but I wonder if he backed himself into a corner. He declared Cersei beneath Rhaegar and after the search in the Free Cities producing no suitable matches, he had little choice. It doesn't seem like Dorne was his Aerys' first choice but Elia was a legal "princess" in the realm.
When Rhaegar and Robert fought at the trident, did Rhaegar defeat Robert? I believe Robert did surrender and Rhaegar relaxed and that was when Robert struck him down. And partly explains Robert's bitterness to Rhaegar, Rhaegar was the better fighter and it galled Robert that he had to resort to subterfuge to defeat Rhaegar.
There's nothing saying that, there were a lot of people watching and they all saw Robert beat Rhaegar in a fair fight. Robert's bitterness is that he can kill Rhaegar and still not get back what he had lost. All his strength and prowess with his hammer can't undo the losses he feels.
I'm not a Rhaegar = Mance/anyone else guy but I'm still not 100% that Rhaegar died on the trident. We recently had the Tourney of Harrenhal which served to show us just how formidable Rhaegar was when motivated, besting the likes of a prime Barristan and Arthur Dayne. I'm not saying Robert couldn't beat him, and maybe he did, but I'm not certain.
The site of their duel is famously known as the Ruby Ford. This name plus the mention of the rubies in Rhaegars armor multiple times leads me to believe there was a glamor in effect. Maester Aemon knew about glamoring so theres no reason why Rhaegar couldn't as well. Melisandre's glamors and ruby usage as well as the Mance/Rattleshirt switch lays down the "rhyme" George likes the present to have with the past.
Perhaps Rhaegar believed his life's work was more important than a crown. His father had another male heir at that point so he could have wanted out and committed fake suicide at the hands of Robert.
jschoma11 , Mance is not Rhaegar 100%, although they might share some DNA. In GOT we have as much four hints Rhaegar will be back - alive, or undead.
(And also, in Fire and Blood, we have the infamous: “when the hammer will fall upon the dragon a King will arise and none Shall stand before him”. None... like in No one but this is a story for another day.)
Well, since George said Jon story will pay tribute to Star Wars, I got this theory, dead or alive, Rhaegar was somehow got by the Others and he is their current Night King. Even his name means King and no matter how good a person he was, everybody noticed the sense of doom around him. I know this is extreme, although I believe I got solid proof for it, and, in an Universe where dead people don’t stay dead for long, Why would the most dead amongst all stay dead?
@@monaradu5165 In looking at his actions, it just doesn't seem like winning the war against Robert was Rhaegar's goal. He had found his life purpose, right or wrong, in his scrolls. If winning battles is more important than whatever he was up to, why park 3 of the greatest fighters and commanders on tower duty? Rhaegar himself was no slouch and imagine the morale boost for the loyalists if their beloved prince was on the battlefield. It didn't really accomplish anything to leave the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy either. Ned and some friends were able to outmuscle them. A group of 10 war deserters could do the same. Were they really the ultimate security?
The truth is we dont know yet exactly what he was trying to accomplish. People can only guess at his motives.
jschoma11 , would it still be fun if we knew everything? To keep the readers entairtained an author has to give them crumbs and make them beg for more. Rhaegar is one of the greatest mistery of the book. He is the singer who puts to notes the song of ice and fire. His final goal is to produce the prince who will save the world, and scrolls are a means to his end. War is just a consequence he has to face so the promissed prince could be borne. We can get this from the crumbs George is feeding us. But we don’t know how he feels nor how much he knows. Does he know he has to die, when he goes to the Trident? All these rubies on his armour cry glamour. And the fact George once said his body was cremated, accounts for little, if for whatever reason Rhaegar was not the one to wear his armour that day. People do believe Mance was burned also, but we know better.
Jon is going to learn about Rhaegar from Aliser Thorn.
The realm is supposed to believe that Bran is a tree god because he says so? And then take on good faith that his bastard brother Jon is the last true Targaryen heir?
I don't think any of it works without some sort of tangible evidence. There has to be something sufficiently convincing if people are to believe such a claim. Whether it be in the crypts or not, Bran's word doesn't get it done alone.
For sure, I was speaking more how it has a major impact on Jon. If he has any comprehension of who his parents were as people beyond just making it so that he has a claim on a throne. The idea of him refusing political power for his ideas of duty to the realm and his personal moral code has been tested once through Stannis, it probably will happen again through RLJ. And the knowledge, or lack thereof, of who Rhaegar was, what his goals and beliefs were, and why he behaved the way he did could be important context for Jon in making the choice between embracing being a Targaryen and being a Stark/Snow.
@@JoeMagician I think Jon turned down Stannis because he hated the idea that bastards are treacherous and less honorable than other men. Plus he had taken the black and wouldn't dishonor himself, almost a nod to Ned(his father at this point).
Once his nights watch service is over upon his death, I believe Jon will use whatever means available to him to better the realm and do what is right. If he learns he is Targaryen and having that name will serve him in ending the long night or protecting the realm, so be it. He wont see it as power hunger or a test of his morals, it will be his duty.
jschoma11 , the show virtually killed Jon’s quest for identity. I hope George will save half of book for the big reveal and its aftermath, because that will be such a journey into Jon’s mind. I don’t think the reveal will be only by Bran or even Sam findings. If we can’t have Rhaegar returned, or animated statues of Ned and Lyanna, which would be awesome, uncle Benjen could somehow save the day, as he probably knows Jon true identy and the way his parents hooked up. As long as he is still alive. I suspect Jamie knows more than we suspect and, how his Rhaegar and the Others dream revealed, he feels guilty about not protecting Elia’s kids, now he has the chance to do something nice for Rhaegar third child.
Rhaegar would totally hate Cersei. Not the age difference but just how she is and what she does. Thank god hes past. R.I.P
. . . Not so sure, we know basicly nothing about his values, like Dany he was really awesome in makeing others belive in him by believeing the awesome things he aparently said about his values . . .but there seams to be a very strong dissonance between how he was percived, and his actions. He abandoned his people to cause a gigantic war, instead of geathering alliences to overthrough his father for the good of his people . . . Thats why the turned of harrenhal was a thing, but he thought it was a very very good idea to through all good apearance away to give Lyanna the rosecrown . . . Than he rund of with her without any attempt to mitigate or aparently even consider the consequences that would have . . . Than the war started and he was no where to be found until someone draged him where he was supposed to be and than died . . . Where the hell was he, why did he think vanishing with Lyanna was a good idea . . . If sleeping with a girl was more importend to him than thousands of lifes . . .i do not think he holds the moral high ground over Cercei, she at least cared about her children, he did not seem to do that
So what's dating like in a world where Jaime Lannister is the silver medal
All this talk of sacrifice for Valyrian steel plus a certain “nobody would do that to their sister” comment made by @TheDisputedLands during the Prophecy Extravaganza concerning how to make dragons has made me connect several dots and reach a very disturbing conclusion about just what purpose the GEotD had in mind for the creation of the Valyrian race….
I really don't think Dorne having a different culture is enough to justify Doran and Oberyn being pro - Rhaegar. There's nothing that indicates the Dornish are OK with publically humiliating your wife by crowning another woman at a widely attended tourney. Nor would they be pleased by Rhaegar complicating Elia's life by running off with a Lord Paramount's daughter who is betrothed to another Lord Paramount!
If they tolerated Rhaegar being in Dorne, it wasn't for his sake, but for Elia's and her children's sakes. Their sister was the future Queen, her son the future king - they had every reason to stay loyal to the Targs and still be outraged by Rhaegar's actions on a personal level. If they were somehow ignorant of Rhaegar's whereabouts it could be something George didn't think through early on, not having fleshed out Dorne and the Martells yet.
They still had every reason to support the remaining Targs over the Baratheon - Lannister regime given what they did to Elia and her children.
Faceless men are for the many faced god. The reason jacqen says aryan stole 3 lives fro. The red god is because she saved them from fire. If she had saved them from drowning jacqen would have said drowned god. That's my thought at least
Maybe Cersi should seduce Young griff. It would be cool if Danny should end up with darksister.
I think Tyrion is a Blackfyre. He was conceived the same year things started to get awkward for Tywin and Joanna in King's Landing, while rumors began to surface about Joanna having an affair with Aerys. He's got the dragon dreams, and Varys is very interested in saving his bacon for some reason.
Yeet the youtubes