@@ForgottenWeapons We mustn't neglect to mention the Beretta 93r, with that beautiful folding stock that utilizes tbe existing lanyard loop as an attachment point. Combined with the burst fire philosophy behind its design, the angled foregrip designed to fold flat against the frame and allow the thumb to loop inside the trigger guard, it's probably the most advanced stocked pistol concept of the 20th century. Should the hand of God strike down half of Washington tomorrow, there may be a snowball's chance in hell of one day seeing a select-fire Flux raider for the civilian market.
@@ianfinrir8724 It hasn't continually failed, though. You've seen an uzi, right? You do know that the military versions of that had a fixed or collapsing stock? There's an unbroken line of accepted, if somewhat rare, pistols, in pistol calibers with a grip magazine well all the way from the first box cannon modified mausers up through the TMP and the MP7 and now the Flux. They're successful within the niche where they make sense- must be holstered, don't have to be in a rifle cartridge, would be nice to have a stock. The barriers to commercial success are largely because of legal barriers, not consumer demand- if I could go buy a select fire pistol with a detachable or collapsing stock, I'd absolutely have one, but I can't afford the multithousand dollar select fire premium and it's still a lot of effort to apply for an SBR.
Something tells me that this wouldn't actually hold up in court. It blatantly ignores the spirit of the law and tries to skirt around it based on the flimsiest of technicalities.
I think it's more like when the poor soul gets busted with it, they can say the product they marketed which wasn't a firearm wasn't those things either...
@@tarnvedra9952 On the lower section of the frame, one could place a picatinny attachment capable of holding a fishing rod, and in front of the muzzle, an attachment able of holding a loop of fishing line. After that, it would just be needed to write on the frame "automatic long distance fishing hook launcher". If they ask why it needs to be fully automatic, one can explain that it is simply for redundancy purposes, just in case the "high velocity line grabbers" do not manage to catch the line on the first or second or third attempt. We can probably patent it and everything.
@jfangm How do you reason that? The Arty Luger had a long barrel, adjustable rear sights and a detachable shoulder stock. That sounds very proto-PDW to me
I was actually one of the first 25 people to get one of these back when it was the MP17. I actually got to do a little "R&D" for Alex at Flux. Basically we had a correspondence where I took a dremel and removed material from my MP17 FCU bedding to make an X5 Legion trigger fit and function and gave them documentation of what I did and how much I removed from where. While what I contributed was miniscule, I can technically say that I helped the tiniest bit with the development of what became the Flux Raider. They even gave me a free Raider. My old MP17 started developing a hairline crack in the back of the chassis and I wanted to retire it from EDC to protect it. At the time, Raider chassises were always out of stock and being scalped on gun broker for like $1200-$1600. I reached out to Alex and asked if they could set one aside to let me buy. I didn't hear anything back, but a week later, a freaking Flux Raider just showed up on my porch. I carry mine every day still. It's handsdown the biggest game changer in pistols. I suck with pistols but I can rapidly make head sized groups at 50-75 yards all day long.
Dude I forgot about that! That’s awesome. The Legion wasn’t out yet when we designed the MP17 so we didn’t know they were gonna make the longer flat faced triggers. - Alex from Flux.
@overtimealex69 holy shit dude!! I always meant to tell you thank you so much for the Raider. I actually proposed to my now wife with that MP17, she said yes. We were gonna mail you guys a bunch of cookies and a big thank you card telling you how thankful we were, but everything got crazy hectic right after that because we moved. We both carry ours all the time. We've got a son now that I can't wait to train to shoot my Raider. I know what I did really wasn't much, but I always felt kind of honored to be able to tell people I had like the tiniest contribution to a really sick gun's development. You guys are awesome man!
/agree While I'm not advocating banning these things, they're useless for civilians since they're too bulky to conceal carry and anywhere you could store this you could store a long gun that actually has a stock and long enough barrel to make the long range shot you want this for with its "brace." All said, this is just a cosplay outfit to make your pistol look like a SMG.
@@michaelshelton5488 He will not look the same. I only wonder, if once Ian is old, will he look like Colonel Sanders and start company called KFC (Kentucky Forgotten Chicken), or will he be more like very specific wizard from Lord of the Rings? We should call him Gundalf then...
I suspect it's because of the development of cheap, effective pistol optics. If you're stuck with early-1900s-era pistol sights, having a shoulder stock doesn't really get you much unless you're trying to shoot full auto, which went away in 1934. But a pistol red dot allows for easy hits at 50m+, if you have good fundamentals and take your time. A third point of contact is suddenly a major advantage and allows rapid, decently accurate hits out to 100m or so.
@greggrunschel9814 _"a shoulder stock doesn't really get you much unless you're trying to shoot full auto"_ I disagree. The use of a pistol stock, even before the advent of optical sights, offered several advantages, particularly in terms of *stability, accuracy, and control.* Of course red dots offer significant advantages over iron sights, no question, but the main reason for the success of the Flux pistol-PDW system was mentioned in the video: You can pass it off as an *accessory acquisition* for an existing service firearm, circumventing a lot of procurement bureaucracy.
@ It doesn’t really matter how stable your firing platform is if your sights consist of 3 small black bumps on top of a 7” slide. Iron sights on a long gun of that era were almost always larger, of a different layout (peep, ghostring, etc), and had a much longer sight radius than anything on a pistol. It wouldn’t surprise me if most shooters couldn’t do better than a 2 to 3 FOOT group at 100 yards with an ordinary pistol that had a stock attached. You’ll note that the famous Artillery Luger had custom-developed sights and an extra long barrel to support them.
@@greggrunschel9814 You are too single minded on this topic imo. Increased stability, accuracy, and control are also noticeable on followup shots. Not just in full auto and range.
@@JanFWeh The point is that these pistol stocks aren’t “free”. They make what would otherwise be a relatively small, light, easy-to-carry pistol into a larger, heavier, and more awkward package. They also add steps between “draw” and “fire”, thus slowing down the deployment of what is generally considered an emergency-use “shoot right now or die” weapon. So shrinking 7-yard groups from 8” to 2” is neat, but not worth the trade-off, because most of that 8” group is going to hit the bad guy anyway. Shrinking a 100-yard group from 48” to 12” means you can actually reliably land some hits at that range, which is a new capability and possibly worth the trouble. It’s like how weapon-mounted lights on pistols weren’t commonly used until both LEDs and lithium-ion batteries were invented, because that’s when they got small and bright enough to make the trade-off worth it.
A friend of mine got one of these, or something like it, for his Glock and registered it as a SBR and carries it daily. He keeps it in the frunk of his Tesla. 🤮. Yeah. Makes me sick. I ask him what he intends to do in case of trouble in a hurry. He was clueless. We live in Alabama where you can pretty much drive with a gun in one and and a burger in the other so I have no idea why he does this.
This is why I was excited about the new Ruger RXM pistol. Now that Ruger has designed a Glock parts and Glock magazine compatible interchangeable fire control unit, with Magpul as their polymer partner, the next logical step is for them to introduce a PDW “flux” chassis that is Ruger (Glock) based.
For sure, and they are cool and are great selling points, but the best thing going for it is it's the smallest 9mm PDW. Well, besides the 365 raider which is even smaller
I have had some experience with a Glock brace, and it was mostly trash exactly because of flexing frame issues. Change your grip slightly and zero would walk. I haven't realized Flux have addressed them at material level. Good for them.
I’ve been waiting on them to bring the Glock version back in 10mm since they discontinued it finally taught myself how to CAD and made my own improved version in 9x25 Dillon getting 2500 fps in a concealable package
@ I do, but I haven’t posted it anywhere yet. Hoping to get some ballistics gel soon and do some velocity and ballistics testing with a few different projectiles in q1 of 25. Got a ransom rest and a Garmin. Takes a long time to gather all the crap needed to do safe testing when you don’t have any kind of outside support.
@@michaelturk7237, well, there are a few Glock PDW 3d printed frames out there, there are frames for G26, 19, 17, 34/17L in the USW and Flux Raider style. 😁
I wondered how they were going to fix the forward magazine retention issue, and was genuinely amazed when I saw how it worked. That double mag release is genius!
I would almost agree with the title.. the B&T USW with a glock 40 10mm is the best one imo.. a lot of power down range Edit: if Flux made one for the Xten 10mm I would buy it asap
So back in the day Pistols like Mauser, Luger, and Browning Hi Power had shoulder stock/usually holster thing. Now it has became a bit sophisticated but I'm genuinely surprised how those concept comes back with improvement.
I've got a Raider and besides the fast dual mag release/spare mag system, the spring-loaded brace is my favorite feature just because of how fun it is.
I love this channel for it's obscure content, non-political and no comercial usage. When I first saw the thumbnail I was a bit skeptical since it's not a "true" forgotten weapon system and I had the feeling there was something over the ordinary here, and it was. Since Ian was quick and upfront that Sig more or less sponsored this video, yet being able to combine product development and cross-interest in the product, I must say this is the best "sponsored" infused gun video I've ever seen. I was skeptical at first but this is so well balanced and put together and rather feeling "buy this awesome thing" that so many other channels do, I met a interesting walkthrough. Well done Ian, this is the best way of doing such "sponsored" videos or whatever you want to call it. You knocked it out of the ballpark while staying true to this channel, bravo! EDIT: Corrected some spelling.
To be fair, they ended up winning with the brace, and it being in such common use with AFT deciding to suddenly classify them all stocks gives us a good shot at killing off SBR laws. Sig's been a good partner in the 2A fight.
Finally, a good image of a bracer!! I'd thought that was how they'd look/work, but previously hadn't been able to tell fir certain from the images. Then again, I prefer the bracer concept to the Blake's 7 equivalent with the Federation's guns... Flux/Sig looks good...
@@BenfromFlux Oh I'm sure y'all got something in the works too, but you know Magpul had something planned from the get-go when they partnered up for the RXM. Good times for PDW people!
The extremely neat technical details on this are superb! This is an especially interesting Mini-PDW, and that spare magazine housing makes for a solid forward grip (despite the disclaimer). Knowledgeable professionals with extensive expertise and experience have provided input to this excellent concept to make it the interesting and unique Mini-PDW that it is. I await your follow up videos with eager anticipation...
@@samuelgoad7320Oh, it's going away one way or another. The word salad circle jerk has circled back around to unburdon us from what has been. They only get away with what you let them get away with, balls are required.
That's what I think is crazy about us gun laws. I'm Italian and our only restrictions are mag capacity (easily circumbented), full auto and military cartridges (it has to do with 70's terr-ism). I still can't understand why instead of ruining everything for everyone, the US gov doesn't just implement a gun licence like they do for cars, as it's done where I live. This is going to filter out any crazy person and leave only responsible sane owners
"If something like the Flux Raider had been around for the 1911, we probably would never have gotten the M1 Carbine." ...Huh. I can't find an argument against that.
Imagine this is what regular pistols would be in the future. This, USWA1 etc. Like, we had a stocked pistols 100 years ago and now we came back to the same concept.
Pretty soon we could be approaching material technologies that lets material to be folded like cloth while being rigid when desired. This would allow for very compact supports and braces (stocks). Could make pistol stocks very popular.
Yes, it is that stupid. In the experimental aircraft world you cannot register an amphibious aircraft if it can take off on water and land on earth, or vice versa, the legal solution was to put a “do not operate in flight” placard on the retract switch. The FAA and DOT were fine with that
@@lostinthedesert6149 Yet more evidence that the American legal system is completely ridiculous. Does "spirit of the law" mean anything in your country?
@@no1DdCno, "spirit of the law" doesn't really mean much, especially if it contradicts the "letter of the law". Which is why we have gotten so good at finding loopholes, especially in the firearm industry (like the arm brace, the angled fore grip, the shockwave 12 gauge, etc).
I bought one sight on seen at my local gun shop.i Didn't think about it, sure 1500 is too much for an p320 but this gun gets everyone talking about it and saves me from taking to guns to the range
This looks nice, I feel like pistol stocks don’t do enough and pistol body kits are doing too much but this is the Goldilocks zone, I just wonder if it would work with that’s obscure “cheek pistoling” technique Ian demonstrated some years ago.
A buddy of mine has a Flux Raider, and it genuinely is a *very* well thought out system. It looks kinda gimmicky at first glance, but it's really, *really* good.
@1:03 immediately reminded me of a modern-day rendition of that scene in the "Untouchables" where they wait up in that cabin with shotguns during that sting operation at the bridge.
The important thing I see people completely overlook is that this is not increasing the accuracy the barrel still tilts and the sight is not directly connected to the barrel either the barrel also does not get any longer when you add a stock. This thing makes it much easier to aim the pistol but it wont have a tighter group.
I honestly find it cool how the concept of turning a pistol into a pdw/pcc has come in a full circle. How back in ww1 you had Lugers w/ stocks but that idea slowly phased out in favor of smgs but then came back around based off the idea of PDWs and need for smaller defense capabilities that extend the effective range of a pistol. I love gun design and gun history it’s so cool to me.
Mr Ian, we've this expression where I'm from, instead of saying inshala we'd say "mog het troffen". It fits perfectly in that part of the narrative. It could be translated as "let it strike where it may". Thank you for your hard work. From South Africa.
I have had a Flux Legion for a couple of months now and like it. I should have waited to see if they will release a suppressor ready model - it SUCKED to have to buy a new slide and barrel, and then to have to remove the rear sight to make it work with a can. Having said that, I had no issues with shooting it suppressed. I shot 250 rounds to break the gun in, added a TBAC Fly 9, and it worked with zero problems. I am a bit suspicious of all the plastic, especially the rail interface with the red dot, Aimpoint T-2, but so far no worries. It probably isn't for everyone, but if it is your thing, you will like this.
The Flux Raider is indeed the best conversion kit ever and i find these conversion kits very fantastic additions. It was very ingenious of Sig to exploit the loophole of ATF's regulations because it doesn't have the specifications of an SBR and is still classifiable as a pistol.
Gotta love those ATF workarounds. Clearly it is not a stock, look it even says it's not a stock. We made this tubular and baffled muzzle device and printed "not a suppressor" in it so it can't be a suppressor.
Have one of these that I built before they started offering the Raider X Legion and registered it as an SBR (My first NFA item). Love this thing. Great Backpacking gun or for around our camp on a sling. Standard Sig320 Slide Harrington Arms 2port Comp TLR-1 Light Holosun HSHS403 Red Dot Tactical Development Front sight replacement Charging handle Also got two sets of Mags. 2 20s and 2 30s
With just a little bit of practice, it's freakishly fast. You know all those pro shooters showing how fast their reloads are on TH-cam? Practice for about an hour, and it's that fast.
I can't see a lot of police use of this. Most officers are carrying patrol rifles these days and nobody is going to carry that thing in a holster while they are working patrol. The best use I can see is as a PDW for rear echelon troops and pilots, especially as you can carry a spare 20 round mag. I don't see any advantage over an MP5K for "sneaky" use. Just my two cents.
That would be my thoughts. Just don't see why the police nor even military are picking this over existing PDW. Looks like something that is made for the US civ's roleplaying as a home defence gun.
I’ve heard of some use as a concealable PDW for low-profile bodyguard sorts of roles. One advantage over the MP5K is that it is easier to buy these kits for their sidearms instead of going through the process of buying compact SMGs. And they’re a bit smaller than an MP5K. Fully agree with the cop use. It only makes sense if you’re trying to replace two weapons with one weapon.
If a cop is in a location where carrying around a full-size rifle is overkill this is a perfect compromise. Besides it doesn’t matter what you think, the market shall decide.
I think the Flux Raider has enough benefits over something more conventional like an MP5k that it could be considered one of the best solutions for law enforcement and private security in close quarter situations. I would prefer police to carry rifles more often but that's just going to cause unnecessary suffering to any bystanders in a subway tunnel or stadium hallway.
back in my day you got a MechTech and you liked it! I knew some cops that unironically carried a MechTech in the trunk of their patrol car because they were not allowed to carry carbines, rifles or shotguns at all. this was the early 2000's when that was more common, and i think most PD's at least allow a trunk shotgun now
Omg, American Gun Laws are ridiculous 😂 Here in Switzerland I can just buy that thing and add it to a pistol....and yes, hold and shoulder it where/however... What happened to the US, are they becoming the new UK? "Do you have a *loicence* for that grip mate?"
@florihae people who’ve never lived in another country sometimes whine like that. It’s really not that bad. I’d rather live here in the US solely because it’s one of the few western countries with freedom of speech.
@Dkoarn The grass is always greener on the other side. There’s no where on Earth I’d rather live. But if you yearn to leave chances are we probably don’t want you either.
Gun Jesus doing an in depth review of the raider is really cool. I'd love to have one of these things but I'm not paying $500 for one. Regardless, nice piece of hardware
If I (a hypothetical police department) am gonna be spending multiple hundreds of dollars on a chassis, just to eke out a tiny bit more accuracy, why wouldn't I just put that money towards an AR in 300 Blackout? The size is comparable, the weight is better, the controls are better, hollow points are comparably-priced, and it'll be way more accurate.
Harder to carry around concealed under your MiB suit. This isn't something for your run of the mill police department. Think more like VIP security and protection details.
With the stock that isn't a stock collapsed it's a lot smaller than an AR. It's something you can put in a small bag. For high end security (stadiums, political banquets...) walking around with an AR is not gonna fly. Someone in a suit walking around with a laptop bag will.
It’s better for places where you can’t just carry an AR openly as an officer. Think security. Somewhere you’re not going to want to lug around a full-size weapon.
@@ahoneyman A 6" AR-15, with the 'brace' collapsed, is 16" long and has a thinner profile than the Flux. I could be wrong on this one, but I seriously think the security and law enforcement industries are underrating the benefits of a PDW-scale fighting rifle. I can probably count on two hands the number of situations where a handgun is the best tool for the job, and right now we're using it for everything.
@Trip-x1i An AR15 still has a buffer tube unless you go piston. Plenty of piston designs out there so that's fine. A 6 inch barrel isn't stabilising anything heavy.The big advantage of subsonic 300 Blackout (big bullets) is now gone. The muzzle flash from regular 300 Blackout or 223 will be completely insane not to mention deafeningly loud. All the muzzle energy is going up in flames and smoke.
I love how, 100 years after deeming it obsolete, we're coming back around to "what if pistols had stocks" again
They have never gone away; always been a few bouncing around in the background. BHP, HK VP-70, etc
@@ForgottenWeapons We mustn't neglect to mention the Beretta 93r, with that beautiful folding stock that utilizes tbe existing lanyard loop as an attachment point. Combined with the burst fire philosophy behind its design, the angled foregrip designed to fold flat against the frame and allow the thumb to loop inside the trigger guard, it's probably the most advanced stocked pistol concept of the 20th century.
Should the hand of God strike down half of Washington tomorrow, there may be a snowball's chance in hell of one day seeing a select-fire Flux raider for the civilian market.
It's one of those things where, despite continually failing, some people still think "This time we'll get it right!"
@@zerofactor7871Since he made a video on the 93R just 5 days ago, I don't think he neglected anything.
@@ianfinrir8724 It hasn't continually failed, though. You've seen an uzi, right? You do know that the military versions of that had a fixed or collapsing stock? There's an unbroken line of accepted, if somewhat rare, pistols, in pistol calibers with a grip magazine well all the way from the first box cannon modified mausers up through the TMP and the MP7 and now the Flux. They're successful within the niche where they make sense- must be holstered, don't have to be in a rifle cartridge, would be nice to have a stock. The barriers to commercial success are largely because of legal barriers, not consumer demand- if I could go buy a select fire pistol with a detachable or collapsing stock, I'd absolutely have one, but I can't afford the multithousand dollar select fire premium and it's still a lot of effort to apply for an SBR.
Legalese: "It's not a grip, it's a magazine warmer for those long winter nights at the range"
Lol under rated comment 👏
Something tells me that this wouldn't actually hold up in court. It blatantly ignores the spirit of the law and tries to skirt around it based on the flimsiest of technicalities.
@@no1DdC Don't worry, I watched My Cousin Vinny, it's completely legal.
@@no1DdC If the trigger guard was filled in more to prevent the thumb from wrapping around, it'd have a better chance I think.
Yeeah, tell that to a judge.
I wonder how much their legal counsel was paid for "write 'not a grip' and 'not a stock' on there and you're golden"
Not a firearm/fishing weight dispenser coming next year.
I think it's more like when the poor soul gets busted with it, they can say the product they marketed which wasn't a firearm wasn't those things either...
Wonder how much they charged for that advice 😳
Good n' nuff 🤷♂️
@@tarnvedra9952 On the lower section of the frame, one could place a picatinny attachment capable of holding a fishing rod, and in front of the muzzle, an attachment able of holding a loop of fishing line.
After that, it would just be needed to write on the frame "automatic long distance fishing hook launcher".
If they ask why it needs to be fully automatic, one can explain that it is simply for redundancy purposes, just in case the "high velocity line grabbers" do not manage to catch the line on the first or second or third attempt.
We can probably patent it and everything.
Somewhere an artillery Luger is sobbing for not being mentioned here ^^'
I have one. I can consistently hit the 12" gong at 150m
This is more like the P.06 (Navy Luger) than the LP.08 (Arty Luger).
@jfangm How do you reason that?
The Arty Luger had a long barrel, adjustable rear sights and a detachable shoulder stock.
That sounds very proto-PDW to me
This is much closer to Mauser C 96 or Benke Thiemann Folding Luger Stock than arty or navy lugers.
I have plans to buy an 8" upper for my DWM Luger and a couple 32-rd snail drums and have that be my EDC.
Not great plans. Just plans.
I was actually one of the first 25 people to get one of these back when it was the MP17. I actually got to do a little "R&D" for Alex at Flux. Basically we had a correspondence where I took a dremel and removed material from my MP17 FCU bedding to make an X5 Legion trigger fit and function and gave them documentation of what I did and how much I removed from where. While what I contributed was miniscule, I can technically say that I helped the tiniest bit with the development of what became the Flux Raider.
They even gave me a free Raider. My old MP17 started developing a hairline crack in the back of the chassis and I wanted to retire it from EDC to protect it. At the time, Raider chassises were always out of stock and being scalped on gun broker for like $1200-$1600. I reached out to Alex and asked if they could set one aside to let me buy. I didn't hear anything back, but a week later, a freaking Flux Raider just showed up on my porch. I carry mine every day still. It's handsdown the biggest game changer in pistols. I suck with pistols but I can rapidly make head sized groups at 50-75 yards all day long.
cool story bro
Dude I forgot about that! That’s awesome. The Legion wasn’t out yet when we designed the MP17 so we didn’t know they were gonna make the longer flat faced triggers. - Alex from Flux.
@overtimealex69 holy shit dude!! I always meant to tell you thank you so much for the Raider. I actually proposed to my now wife with that MP17, she said yes. We were gonna mail you guys a bunch of cookies and a big thank you card telling you how thankful we were, but everything got crazy hectic right after that because we moved. We both carry ours all the time. We've got a son now that I can't wait to train to shoot my Raider. I know what I did really wasn't much, but I always felt kind of honored to be able to tell people I had like the tiniest contribution to a really sick gun's development. You guys are awesome man!
You carry this thing every day? Seriously? A bit overkill
@@TheGhostOfPatrickHenrywipe your mouth.😂
Last time I was this early, the weapons were still remembered
Today, on Fading memory weapons
Last time I was this early this joke wasn't overused lol
Oh ahaha
I 'member
@@Harrkin The North Remembers
3:56 "Tossing rounds off inshallah" is my new motto at the range
Lol with the hand gestures as well!?
Gun Jesus confirmed to be gigabased (for the 467th time now)
@@jastrapper190 What fake one?
Allah is just the Arabic word for God. @@LargeBanana
He probably thinks there's a real god. Religion is the opiate of the masses etc.
Hes reviewing a future forgotten weapon. In 40yrs he'll be reviewing it again after it's officially forgotten
And he'll still look exactly the same 🤣
Gun Jesus is not relative to time as we mere humans understand it.
Gun Jesus is not relative to time as we mere humans understand it.
/agree
While I'm not advocating banning these things, they're useless for civilians since they're too bulky to conceal carry and anywhere you could store this you could store a long gun that actually has a stock and long enough barrel to make the long range shot you want this for with its "brace."
All said, this is just a cosplay outfit to make your pistol look like a SMG.
@@michaelshelton5488 He will not look the same. I only wonder, if once Ian is old, will he look like Colonel Sanders and start company called KFC (Kentucky Forgotten Chicken), or will he be more like very specific wizard from Lord of the Rings?
We should call him Gundalf then...
*We looped back around to pistol stocks.* 🙌🏼
I suspect it's because of the development of cheap, effective pistol optics. If you're stuck with early-1900s-era pistol sights, having a shoulder stock doesn't really get you much unless you're trying to shoot full auto, which went away in 1934. But a pistol red dot allows for easy hits at 50m+, if you have good fundamentals and take your time. A third point of contact is suddenly a major advantage and allows rapid, decently accurate hits out to 100m or so.
@greggrunschel9814 _"a shoulder stock doesn't really get you much unless you're trying to shoot full auto"_
I disagree. The use of a pistol stock, even before the advent of optical sights, offered several advantages, particularly in terms of *stability, accuracy, and control.*
Of course red dots offer significant advantages over iron sights, no question, but the main reason for the success of the Flux pistol-PDW system was mentioned in the video:
You can pass it off as an *accessory acquisition* for an existing service firearm, circumventing a lot of procurement bureaucracy.
@ It doesn’t really matter how stable your firing platform is if your sights consist of 3 small black bumps on top of a 7” slide. Iron sights on a long gun of that era were almost always larger, of a different layout (peep, ghostring, etc), and had a much longer sight radius than anything on a pistol. It wouldn’t surprise me if most shooters couldn’t do better than a 2 to 3 FOOT group at 100 yards with an ordinary pistol that had a stock attached. You’ll note that the famous Artillery Luger had custom-developed sights and an extra long barrel to support them.
@@greggrunschel9814 You are too single minded on this topic imo.
Increased stability, accuracy, and control are also noticeable on followup shots. Not just in full auto and range.
@@JanFWeh The point is that these pistol stocks aren’t “free”. They make what would otherwise be a relatively small, light, easy-to-carry pistol into a larger, heavier, and more awkward package. They also add steps between “draw” and “fire”, thus slowing down the deployment of what is generally considered an emergency-use “shoot right now or die” weapon. So shrinking 7-yard groups from 8” to 2” is neat, but not worth the trade-off, because most of that 8” group is going to hit the bad guy anyway. Shrinking a 100-yard group from 48” to 12” means you can actually reliably land some hits at that range, which is a new capability and possibly worth the trouble.
It’s like how weapon-mounted lights on pistols weren’t commonly used until both LEDs and lithium-ion batteries were invented, because that’s when they got small and bright enough to make the trade-off worth it.
1:03 photo appears only for fraction of a second and immediately disappears
yeah I literally had to go frame by frame just to see the picture in question
Awesome photo, Grayman Co is a great company
A wild badass Ian has appeared!
it's a little reward!
Free jumpscare!
That usage of Inshallah was on point and had me giggling !
Me too lol
Special Muslim Easter egg
@@muhammadowaismalik3451Question: Do Arabic-speaking Christians also use the term in everyday speech?
@@SvenElven Based on something I read a while back it has become more of a cultural phrase in some countries rather than a religious saying.
@@SvenElven Yes, because these words predate Islam.
Standardize a Glock stock on a stock Glock and you get a stock Glock stock.
and barrel
A friend of mine got one of these, or something like it, for his Glock and registered it as a SBR and carries it daily. He keeps it in the frunk of his Tesla. 🤮. Yeah. Makes me sick. I ask him what he intends to do in case of trouble in a hurry. He was clueless. We live in Alabama where you can pretty much drive with a gun in one and and a burger in the other so I have no idea why he does this.
And the big black bug bled black bug blood... she sells seashells!!!
Stock Glock Glock Stock
Are you having a Strock?
Thank you Gun Jesus. Here I was convinced my Christmas shopping was done for the year.
3:51 "And you can't just be tossing out rounds 'inshallah' into a crowd" This is my new favorite Ianism
Another reason Ian likes the toggle lock
Welcome back PP-2000 forward grip
It is NOT a grip
😂😂
@@МихаилЛебедев-п4щ Sure it isn't, Mr. ATF, I was just goofing around
Future “Forgotten Weapons”
Ian getting ahead of the game.
Given flux poor product management and just not listening to what the consumer wants, they put themselves in the term "forgotten"
"Not a youtube comment"
"Not a sarcastic reply."
"Not an active viewer, reading these non comments"
@@no1DdC"not a sassy reply to a TH-cam comment"
"Insert Gun Jesus joke here"
This is why I was excited about the new Ruger RXM pistol. Now that Ruger has designed a Glock parts and Glock magazine compatible interchangeable fire control unit, with Magpul as their polymer partner, the next logical step is for them to introduce a PDW “flux” chassis that is Ruger (Glock) based.
Gonna happen.
That spring loaded stock and double mag release are some legit party tricks that will actually get this thing sold. Pretty sick.
Edit that comment right fucking now or ATF is gonna drop the hammer. It is clearly not a stock, cant you read?
For sure, and they are cool and are great selling points, but the best thing going for it is it's the smallest 9mm PDW. Well, besides the 365 raider which is even smaller
The 320 is neat, but the 365 flux now that is something I'm seriously considering.
Same. I seriously hope they do a collaboration with Sig for the 365, too.
@@coltpiecemakerThey do, Google “Raider 365”. Granted it’s out of stock, but it exists.
Now I excited! 365 XL Legion Raider Defense
I have had some experience with a Glock brace, and it was mostly trash exactly because of flexing frame issues. Change your grip slightly and zero would walk. I haven't realized Flux have addressed them at material level. Good for them.
I’ve been waiting on them to bring the Glock version back in 10mm since they discontinued it finally taught myself how to CAD and made my own improved version in 9x25 Dillon getting 2500 fps in a concealable package
You have Instagram ?! I wanna see that!
@ I do, but I haven’t posted it anywhere yet. Hoping to get some ballistics gel soon and do some velocity and ballistics testing with a few different projectiles in q1 of 25. Got a ransom rest and a Garmin. Takes a long time to gather all the crap needed to do safe testing when you don’t have any kind of outside support.
Shit, I've been just waiting for the G19 version to be back in stock.
@@michaelturk7237, well, there are a few Glock PDW 3d printed frames out there, there are frames for G26, 19, 17, 34/17L in the USW and Flux Raider style. 😁
Ooh, slick!
Ian ALREADY putting the Flux Raider on Forgotten Weapons is DIABOLICAL 😂
Ben is an awesome guy, good shooter and a good man. I’ve had the chance to hang out a couple times with him.
Thanks brotha 🙏
@@BenfromFlux 🫡🤘🏻
Not every expert would go out of his way to say he is wrong. Another reason I trust him.
I wondered how they were going to fix the forward magazine retention issue, and was genuinely amazed when I saw how it worked.
That double mag release is genius!
I would almost agree with the title.. the B&T USW with a glock 40 10mm is the best one imo.. a lot of power down range
Edit: if Flux made one for the Xten 10mm I would buy it asap
They told me via email and in a reddit comment that the Xten version is in the works
Working on it
So back in the day Pistols like Mauser, Luger, and Browning Hi Power had shoulder stock/usually holster thing.
Now it has became a bit sophisticated but I'm genuinely surprised how those concept comes back with improvement.
Good ideas never die.
We just need to update the law to make it legal
Boink! I think Ian likes operating that spring release.
I've got a Raider and besides the fast dual mag release/spare mag system, the spring-loaded brace is my favorite feature just because of how fun it is.
Ben, one of the inventors, has nearly made it to GM in USPSA with one of these.
They're stupidly easy to shoot. A few months ago, a friend shot mine for the first time, and worked it out to 150 yards with no problem.
🤘
hell yeah guns are looking more and more like something from ghost in the shell
This might be my first Sig
haha the single frame photo when he mentioned a photo shoot had me rolling
03:58 I never knew I needed to hear Ian say "inshallah" in my life, but I'm go glad I did.
Where's Brass Facts when you need him...
Probably watching this video lol
He's probably busy autism'ing over yet another suppressor or LAM.
Just looking at this I already see one potential upgrade.
Make the brace hook reversible for left-hand shooters.
You can buy it with a left handed brace but unfortunately deployment is only on the right side.
It is, we sell them.
I love this channel for it's obscure content, non-political and no comercial usage. When I first saw the thumbnail I was a bit skeptical since it's not a "true" forgotten weapon system and I had the feeling there was something over the ordinary here, and it was. Since Ian was quick and upfront that Sig more or less sponsored this video, yet being able to combine product development and cross-interest in the product, I must say this is the best "sponsored" infused gun video I've ever seen. I was skeptical at first but this is so well balanced and put together and rather feeling "buy this awesome thing" that so many other channels do, I met a interesting walkthrough. Well done Ian, this is the best way of doing such "sponsored" videos or whatever you want to call it. You knocked it out of the ballpark while staying true to this channel, bravo!
EDIT: Corrected some spelling.
Skeptical man skeptical!!!! Sceptical is something else entirely
@daldladla yes, that's what I meant now that I read it again. English is not my first language but seems you understood my point anyway :)
That double mag release design is chefs kiss
Had one for a few years now. Don't use it much but the role as a truck gun cannot dismissed.
Same. It's my current "get home gun."
Top tier backpack gun.
8:25 oh yeah, Sig has *never* pushed a new product on shaky NFA legal grounds... Like the Sig Brace... Or the MPX muzzle brake...
Gotta push the envelope. The NFA is a joke.
F the NFA, it should be repealed.
To be fair, they ended up winning with the brace, and it being in such common use with AFT deciding to suddenly classify them all stocks gives us a good shot at killing off SBR laws.
Sig's been a good partner in the 2A fight.
Finally, a good image of a bracer!! I'd thought that was how they'd look/work, but previously hadn't been able to tell fir certain from the images. Then again, I prefer the bracer concept to the Blake's 7 equivalent with the Federation's guns... Flux/Sig looks good...
I can't wait to see what Magpul brings to the table with the RXM
You mean Flux… 😂
@@BenfromFlux Oh I'm sure y'all got something in the works too, but you know Magpul had something planned from the get-go when they partnered up for the RXM. Good times for PDW people!
The extremely neat technical details on this are superb!
This is an especially interesting Mini-PDW, and that spare magazine housing makes for a solid forward grip (despite the disclaimer).
Knowledgeable professionals with extensive expertise and experience have provided input to this excellent concept to make it the interesting and unique Mini-PDW that it is.
I await your follow up videos with eager anticipation...
Heeeey. There is one in display in my local gunstore on the south of Poland. So they're definetly out there around.
Let's hope the NFA stuff on short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns and suppressors goes away fairly quickly.
Unlikely unfortunately
@@samuelgoad7320Oh, it's going away one way or another. The word salad circle jerk has circled back around to unburdon us from what has been. They only get away with what you let them get away with, balls are required.
That's what I think is crazy about us gun laws. I'm Italian and our only restrictions are mag capacity (easily circumbented), full auto and military cartridges (it has to do with 70's terr-ism). I still can't understand why instead of ruining everything for everyone, the US gov doesn't just implement a gun licence like they do for cars, as it's done where I live.
This is going to filter out any crazy person and leave only responsible sane owners
@kino_61 Our Second Ammendment says the government can't do that. Shall not be infringed - words have meaning.
If a certain AK guy thing goes through the whole NFA might go away
"If something like the Flux Raider had been around for the 1911, we probably would never have gotten the M1 Carbine."
...Huh. I can't find an argument against that.
9:16. Boiing is the correct term for that function 😉👍
Hell yeah Ian! More pdw stuff please!
I prefer the smaller, metal, and minimalist design of the b&t USW chassis over the flux raider. Plus it’s 1/3 the price!
When he keeps pulling stuff from under the table I was expecting him to bring up a rabbit to the magicians Taa Daa 😁
That magazine release is genius!!
video on the flux 365 when, even smaller package and probably the closest thing to the embodiment of the modern PDW concept with its own IWB holster
Great video! Might be useful to include MP17 in the title for those searching for it! :)
01:45...ish, those darn ..."sneaky people"...😂
Lunch time in England and a good watch ahead.
Same! 🤣👍
Imagine this is what regular pistols would be in the future. This, USWA1 etc. Like, we had a stocked pistols 100 years ago and now we came back to the same concept.
Pretty soon we could be approaching material technologies that lets material to be folded like cloth while being rigid when desired. This would allow for very compact supports and braces (stocks). Could make pistol stocks very popular.
Since it'll always be more expensive than a pistol without a stock, this won't ever fully replace them. It'll always be a niche thing.
I've been looking at a P320 recently, so this video is a Godsend!
Thanks for the advice and help, Ian!
I’m mean it says “not a grip” right on the thing. Which means legally it can’t be one. Lol
Yes, it is that stupid.
In the experimental aircraft world you cannot register an amphibious aircraft if it can take off on water and land on earth, or vice versa, the legal solution was to put a “do not operate in flight” placard on the retract switch.
The FAA and DOT were fine with that
@@lostinthedesert6149 Yet more evidence that the American legal system is completely ridiculous. Does "spirit of the law" mean anything in your country?
@@no1DdC if the law is stupid and pointless, then "spirit of the law" would be "to annoy taxpayers and make their life miserable".
@@vos2693 Plenty of laws like that, but not in the gun law category.
@@no1DdCno, "spirit of the law" doesn't really mean much, especially if it contradicts the "letter of the law".
Which is why we have gotten so good at finding loopholes, especially in the firearm industry (like the arm brace, the angled fore grip, the shockwave 12 gauge, etc).
I bought one sight on seen at my local gun shop.i Didn't think about it, sure 1500 is too much for an p320 but this gun gets everyone talking about it and saves me from taking to guns to the range
Flux had no issue with product visibility, the dang things have been sold out for years
The magazine release options on the Raider look pretty slick.
14:40 Jokes on them, that gun can fire without the trigger 😆
Been waiting for this video for yeeeeaaars, nicely done Ian!
I been waiting all my life 😂
Ian is the flux between myself and TH-cam.
Æon/Ian same thing 😂
This looks nice, I feel like pistol stocks don’t do enough and pistol body kits are doing too much but this is the Goldilocks zone, I just wonder if it would work with that’s obscure “cheek pistoling” technique Ian demonstrated some years ago.
How long until Flux makes you do a video on the Raider 365? I'd love to hear your take on whether it really is concealable.
I would like to do that; just need to get one of them...
Oh, please bsby, baby please! Merry Christmas, Happy New Year & Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious in the same breath, inshallah, gun jesus!
This might be the first time I’ve had a product before forgotten weapons did a video on it.
photo was shown for .2 seconds
People are always asking me if I know Tyler Durden.
A buddy of mine has a Flux Raider, and it genuinely is a *very* well thought out system. It looks kinda gimmicky at first glance, but it's really, *really* good.
that reload mag release thingy is actually very cool, impressed!
The great grandchild of the Mauser Broom handle.
@1:03 immediately reminded me of a modern-day rendition of that scene in the "Untouchables" where they wait up in that cabin with shotguns during that sting operation at the bridge.
The important thing I see people completely overlook is that this is not increasing the accuracy the barrel still tilts and the sight is not directly connected to the barrel either the barrel also does not get any longer when you add a stock. This thing makes it much easier to aim the pistol but it wont have a tighter group.
Great photo!
I honestly find it cool how the concept of turning a pistol into a pdw/pcc has come in a full circle. How back in ww1 you had Lugers w/ stocks but that idea slowly phased out in favor of smgs but then came back around based off the idea of PDWs and need for smaller defense capabilities that extend the effective range of a pistol. I love gun design and gun history it’s so cool to me.
Mr Ian, we've this expression where I'm from, instead of saying inshala we'd say "mog het troffen". It fits perfectly in that part of the narrative. It could be translated as "let it strike where it may". Thank you for your hard work. From South Africa.
I have had a Flux Legion for a couple of months now and like it. I should have waited to see if they will release a suppressor ready model - it SUCKED to have to buy a new slide and barrel, and then to have to remove the rear sight to make it work with a can. Having said that, I had no issues with shooting it suppressed. I shot 250 rounds to break the gun in, added a TBAC Fly 9, and it worked with zero problems. I am a bit suspicious of all the plastic, especially the rail interface with the red dot, Aimpoint T-2, but so far no worries. It probably isn't for everyone, but if it is your thing, you will like this.
Nice to see somebody got it right with this old concept.
The Flux Raider is indeed the best conversion kit ever and i find these conversion kits very fantastic additions. It was very ingenious of Sig to exploit the loophole of ATF's regulations because it doesn't have the specifications of an SBR and is still classifiable as a pistol.
always great to see forgotten weapons review a firearm(chassis) you currently own! I love my raider.
fantastic review, really loved the in depth breakdown on all the features.
I can't wait for Magpul's version for the RxM
You mean Flux… 😂
Great info, thanks Ian! 🎄☮️🇺🇸
Gotta love those ATF workarounds. Clearly it is not a stock, look it even says it's not a stock. We made this tubular and baffled muzzle device and printed "not a suppressor" in it so it can't be a suppressor.
I finished building out my Raider about 6 months before the flux legion came out
I still love mine though
1:02 So much class
There is an mp17 raider also before the X came out. Very similar to the current X flux raider, But it(X) has a few substantial improvements.
Brandon Herrera for ATF Director.
Have one of these that I built before they started offering the Raider X Legion and registered it as an SBR (My first NFA item). Love this thing. Great Backpacking gun or for around our camp on a sling.
Standard Sig320 Slide
Harrington Arms 2port Comp
TLR-1 Light
Holosun HSHS403 Red Dot
Tactical Development Front sight replacement Charging handle
Also got two sets of Mags. 2 20s and 2 30s
This is sick. What a cool idea with the dual mag release.
With just a little bit of practice, it's freakishly fast. You know all those pro shooters showing how fast their reloads are on TH-cam? Practice for about an hour, and it's that fast.
That mag release is brilliant.
I can't see a lot of police use of this. Most officers are carrying patrol rifles these days and nobody is going to carry that thing in a holster while they are working patrol. The best use I can see is as a PDW for rear echelon troops and pilots, especially as you can carry a spare 20 round mag. I don't see any advantage over an MP5K for "sneaky" use. Just my two cents.
That would be my thoughts. Just don't see why the police nor even military are picking this over existing PDW.
Looks like something that is made for the US civ's roleplaying as a home defence gun.
I’ve heard of some use as a concealable PDW for low-profile bodyguard sorts of roles. One advantage over the MP5K is that it is easier to buy these kits for their sidearms instead of going through the process of buying compact SMGs. And they’re a bit smaller than an MP5K.
Fully agree with the cop use. It only makes sense if you’re trying to replace two weapons with one weapon.
Some sheriffs department in the US was in fact carrying these in holsters
The MP5K was around when Mark23 was developed. I don't know if the "sneaky people" will use this, but the logic might be similar.
If a cop is in a location where carrying around a full-size rifle is overkill this is a perfect compromise. Besides it doesn’t matter what you think, the market shall decide.
a great video and device my dear Mr. gj. have a good one and marry christmas.
I think the Flux Raider has enough benefits over something more conventional like an MP5k that it could be considered one of the best solutions for law enforcement and private security in close quarter situations. I would prefer police to carry rifles more often but that's just going to cause unnecessary suffering to any bystanders in a subway tunnel or stadium hallway.
back in my day you got a MechTech and you liked it! I knew some cops that unironically carried a MechTech in the trunk of their patrol car because they were not allowed to carry carbines, rifles or shotguns at all. this was the early 2000's when that was more common, and i think most PD's at least allow a trunk shotgun now
Didn’t Ian build one of these a while ago and SBR’d it?
Yeah I was about to say...
That was a USW-320
@@ForgottenWeapons That's right. Would be cool if it made a cameo in the range video for comparison sake.
I got to fire the Flux Legion at GOA'S GOALS media range day back in August and fell in love with it. It was very nice to shoot.
Omg, American Gun Laws are ridiculous 😂
Here in Switzerland I can just buy that thing and add it to a pistol....and yes, hold and shoulder it where/however...
What happened to the US, are they becoming the new UK?
"Do you have a *loicence* for that grip mate?"
It's been this way for 100 years. Blame Al Capone, idk.
@@Dkoarn so bad? I always thought it was mostly the media here showing the US in a bad light...sad to hear that also the people living there agree :/
@florihae people who’ve never lived in another country sometimes whine like that. It’s really not that bad. I’d rather live here in the US solely because it’s one of the few western countries with freedom of speech.
@Dkoarn The grass is always greener on the other side. There’s no where on Earth I’d rather live. But if you yearn to leave chances are we probably don’t want you either.
@@AdamantLightLP sorry what?
"One of the few western countries with freedom of speach"?!
Your picture of Europe must be interesting 😅
Gun Jesus doing an in depth review of the raider is really cool. I'd love to have one of these things but I'm not paying $500 for one. Regardless, nice piece of hardware
If I (a hypothetical police department) am gonna be spending multiple hundreds of dollars on a chassis, just to eke out a tiny bit more accuracy, why wouldn't I just put that money towards an AR in 300 Blackout? The size is comparable, the weight is better, the controls are better, hollow points are comparably-priced, and it'll be way more accurate.
Harder to carry around concealed under your MiB suit. This isn't something for your run of the mill police department. Think more like VIP security and protection details.
With the stock that isn't a stock collapsed it's a lot smaller than an AR. It's something you can put in a small bag. For high end security (stadiums, political banquets...) walking around with an AR is not gonna fly. Someone in a suit walking around with a laptop bag will.
It’s better for places where you can’t just carry an AR openly as an officer. Think security. Somewhere you’re not going to want to lug around a full-size weapon.
@@ahoneyman A 6" AR-15, with the 'brace' collapsed, is 16" long and has a thinner profile than the Flux. I could be wrong on this one, but I seriously think the security and law enforcement industries are underrating the benefits of a PDW-scale fighting rifle. I can probably count on two hands the number of situations where a handgun is the best tool for the job, and right now we're using it for everything.
@Trip-x1i An AR15 still has a buffer tube unless you go piston. Plenty of piston designs out there so that's fine. A 6 inch barrel isn't stabilising anything heavy.The big advantage of subsonic 300 Blackout (big bullets) is now gone. The muzzle flash from regular 300 Blackout or 223 will be completely insane not to mention deafeningly loud. All the muzzle energy is going up in flames and smoke.