@Nathan Glass have you ever read the 48 laws of power? I recommend you do and can you talk more about philosophy? If you can I'd appreciate that thank you.
As a philosophy student: you can reason yourself out of any part of your normative system (morality), when it is overruled by another part of your normative system. Or put differently: it all depends on your value hierarchy, what you find the most important. Sometimes achieving or protecting a goal, requires you harm or abandon another of your goals. If the value you put in the first goal supersedes that of the second one, and the second one is a moral consideration, then you are personally justified in acting immoral. Doesn't mean others will agree, though. ;) The easiest (hypothetical) example being when stealing is the only option to feed your starving children. The goal of protecting and nourishing your child supersedes the injustice of you stealing from a merchant. (Well, or so I assume :p) It all depends on how much value you put in certain goals. And I tend to see values themselves as goals (trans-situational goals, to be precise).
wouldn’t that then prove that morality isn’t really a real thing. it’s just certain principles built by rules that you’re essentially taught. most little children will steal until they’re told not to for example. stealing is seen as immoral, but why? because religion, government, etc, have constructed that as a “moral.”
@@litty4553 I agree for the most part: I don't think most people realize just how much your priorities can shift when you end up in a struggle for survival.
At a certain point I was arguing with my INTP brother, and I got angry at him because he was being seriously disrespectful. When I told him that, he said: "I don't respect anybody's beliefs, why should yours be any different?" In all honesty, it was kind of refreshing to hear that.
I was once ghosted by someone who I thought was a friend. He allowed me to open up to him and trust him. We played soccer together, but as soon as soccer ended, he never talked to me again. He defriended me on the very platform he encouraged me to join, Snapchat. When I ran into him he acted like we never met. At the time, I became bitter and angry. I acted like a jerk to my friends and boyfriend. I pushed everyone away because I could no longer trust them. I didn't know it at the time, but it was subliminally because I was ghosted. When I found that out, I tried my best to trust my friends again. I'm not a bad person, just very sensitive.
Idk if this makes me an anti-moralist or not but I actually don’t think of good / bad as something that’s so binary and black and white. There is almost always something else to consider, like what is the person’s motive, their natural inclination, etc. Like the archetypes of anti-heroes and anti-villains don’t fit into that kind of binary system at all. I see what’s good and bad more as a long spectrum of gray. So I don’t necessarily agree that people are fundamentally good; I think people are fundamentally looking out for their own survival but that they WANT to be good, or at least to feel like they’re good. Hopefully this doesn’t come across as too cynical lol. (& I love the skull thumbnail btw!) edit: just realized i was describing relativism.....
I agree. The gray area is far larger than any bit of black or white. Is there true black and true white or just true humanity? Im inclined to think the latter.
The thing about Machiavelli is that he didn't appear to support Machiavellianism. He wrote one book that although it is written as a how to, its ultimate role seemed to be exposing how awful feudal politics and the hegemony of the catholic church were were right before the emergence of the nation-state as a replacement for feudal oaths and Catholic Hegemony (represented by events like the treaty of Westphalia, and the Protestant Reformation) and thereby one of the few moments in history when the social order managed to reset in order to be massively more ordered. Then in the Discourse on Levi, he advocates for a republic, and one of his reasons was that it did the best at preventing Machiavellian individuals from controlling everything. If you read the accounts of the church from that period it is hilarious the sort of controversies that went on among higher-ups in the church, and the fact that people were mostly drunk when they went to church. (If you want to hear them you should read the Sovereign Individual by James Dale Davidson and William Rees-Mogg)
Ok this is interesting and I was not aware of this! That would be so ironic that he unintentionally led to the creation of so many machiavellians out there ~ Nathan
@@lovewho This theory has come about because he was an ENTP who wrote The Prince as if he was an evil INTJ. You'd think he would actually be an INTJ when you read The Prince but finding out he is an ENTP complicates things since they like to play devil's advocate and troll people.
I spent along time at work trying to get ahead through competency and it was a real struggle. My boss would give me the work that nobody else was willing to do or that was difficult. I’m quite agreeable so I would do it but I started to become resentful as others who did far less were beginning to earn more. I started to identify weaknesses in certain people and find a way to put them in a situation where their weaknesses would be on display for management to see. I went from the absolute bottom of the company to being offered a position to move to the U.S to head a branch of the company over there. I never lied, but I was amazed at my own ability to find the softest part of a person and have them claw themselves open. It does make me feel powerful, although it’s exhausting and the funny thing is, I find the work incredibly boring. I’m an INTP.
I once took a dark triad test online in high school, and got Machiavellian over both Narcissistic and Psychopathic, almost completely overshadowing both. I then wrote a paper on the Dark Triad traits for a science abstract. It's definitely a good tool for measuring the darker elements of your personality, if you're on a journey of self discovery. For relatively anecdotal MBTI reference though, I'm an INTP.
When people start talking to me I will say vague comments and / or “ really, I didn’t know about that” on repeat to keep them talking. It’s a win win in my book I get to check out mental and go back to what I was thinking about, I get some random trivia for later on when I do check back in from time to time, and I never share anything about myself. They get to vent / preach / gossip / whatever and it never leaves that room ( for obvious reasons) so people trust me, they have positive feels towards me and invite me places with them. -intp
I only make friends who will benefit me in the long-term, who will do me favors, and who will engage me in conversation to sharpen my wits, and finally befriending people with good habits so I can imitate them. Otherwise, the effort required to make and keep friends isn't worth it.
I can see why some choose this mindset. I can see myself leaning towards it in many ways depending on the time in my life. It is the constant confrontation of other's hypocrisy, people's unwillingness to concede to another thought that negates their own or willful ignorance, people's tendency towards hatred or misunderstanding (choosing to believe the bad instead of the good in others), clinging to bias without doing the difficult work to tear your own bias apart and examine it, ascribing to logical fallacies without verifying your thoughts/beliefs against the truth, injustices due to people's corruption/greed/power, people's tendencies towards possession obsession, untethering from societal agreed upon morality standards due to a distrust of the systems and peoples that have adopted them (yet don't follow them, or excuse themselves but point the finger at those who aren't excused = hypocrisy), rejecting people's definition of 'good', 'moral', 'ethical' and creating your own definitions, slicing through people's bullshit, and/or rejecting the paradox of life that you must give what you wish to receive since it is dependent on other factors and life can be a paradox within a paradox (expend energy to get energy, be a friend to get a friend, be kind to receive kindness, eat less to weigh less, etc.).* *Holy run-on sentence batman! lol. Sorry about that. I probably should have turned that into a list for readability. Let me know if it's confusing, and I'll edit it. This was an interesting video, and has sent me down the rabbit hole to research. Thank you, Nathan, for another thought-provoking video.
@@lovewho Looking forward to more trips down the rabbit hole soon. I ended up reading a study called 'Beyond Sacrificial Harm: A two-dimensional model of utilitarian psychology'. Thank you for the carrot that led me there. ;)
My darkest trait of all is: I am so absolutetly good that, when they go bad, I can stand from above and go "hahaha, you silly child, now let me tell you what you should do to redeem". But I'm working on expressing my vulnerability and faults and through that become even more... enlightened.
I watched this after taking a dark triad test and scoring very high in the Machiavellian rating. I find that I relate to a lot of the principals discussed. I enjoy strategy games a great deal and looking back, I'd say that while making deals in them, I have employed some of these principals, leading to my success. Great video! Thanks for putting this together!
around a year ago I was sitting in this lecture about Machiavelli and I couldn't help but wonder... (as he ruled over and improved sociological condition in Florence) was Machiavelli a power hungry ruler who had no morals in order to promote his own sense for grandiosity or was he a deeply caring individual who realized that you can only come so far by doing "the right thing"
Interesting idea! Sometimes there are only bad options if you want to achieve a moral outcome. Many people will opt to take neither option in order to have no 'obvious' blood on their hands whilst in reality being more guilty than the person who took the though choice ~ Nathan
@@lovewho It made me remember that Machiavelli wrote: "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis".
Well, he was an ENTP, which tells you everything you need to know. We can argue for things we don’t believe in, play devil’s advocate until we’re blue in the face, etc. He was not the kind of person he wrote about in The Prince.
Yes, the prison dilemma talk makes so much sense! Emotions are actually rational (I think you also touch on this idea in some other video) - because they tell us how to react in order to both maximise our own wellbeing but also fit into the group (shame and guilt is clearly a "fit-into the goup-emotion")
There are times where fitting into a group is so very overrated and a good example of that is cult of woke where people give up every sense of personal identity and purpose becoming a social clone where there is no free thought outside the cult.
Emotions can only maximise youre wellbeing in the short term. Emotions don't know if you will reach a higher well being by pushing through the scary emotions.
Be the good in the world. Emotions are contagious. Ultimately no matter what your actions and or justifications may be, you have to live in yourself (mind and body) at the end of the day. Goodness is nourishment for both mind and body.❤️
I know this video was posted months ago but I really love it! I was doing some research on Machiavelianism, because I am sure I had an area manager in my old company who had these traits. Lots of grey zone behaviors and lots of the fellow employees could sense something "Slimy" about him, but he didn't technically do anything wrong upfront like a narcissist or a psychopath would do. He often kept a very calm , poker face, sometimes friendly and cool composure, even offered opportunities and I noticed only if it meant that it would be used as evidence to suggest that they were doing everything they can to "Make the employee happy". But, when the time came for the interests of the company, for example the type of people they wanted, who was willing to conform everyone to a single culture or social group so that they could have a bit more control of the situation. As I remember, many employees felt like it was for the investors rather than the quality or purpose of the work. Before I was let go, I remember employees loosing it, because of the way they felt manipulated or talked down to. It was like the area manager knew the weaknesses of employees, and each person either lost it or felt completely confused. When it was my turn to receive these strange meetings that other employees described, I remember feeling manipulated or gaslighted for my efforts as if they were not real. We had iPads with a program that showed the results of our customers about how happy they felt with the service and communication, and I was a certified mentor and trained employees. At the time he was nice to me, he said he was impressed with the way I cared for others. But on a different day he was completely different, saying I wasnt doing enough and my communication was a failure, and that people were just saying I and other employees were doing a good job because we make them feel threatened by us (because many of them were Japanese). Or that I wasnt social enough with employees who met the ideals for the company (The much younger ones with wages much less than mine). It was incredibly strange. Nothing made sense, yet I couldnt and other employees couldnt prove that what they were doing was wrong. So I wondered if that was actually machiavellianism. We were all feeling confused when we were let go, and noticed that all the senior teachers that were 5+ like me felt like the conversations and his thoughts were really confusing and frustrating. While the new employees or "Obeying with out question employees" took over all of our positions such as my mentor position.
This might be a very small thing but as an ENTP , I can pretend to know a lot about something that I've never heard about( like a book or a band) - I use this to make friends with people in strange places. If I like that person then that very night, you'll find me googling all about BTS and romp about as a devout fan the next morning. So, I guess I lie and then make it come true to make friends.
I do that a lot too. Especially when I want to charm a specific person, it works miracles. It really must be an ENTP thing. I'd call it "tertiary Fe activation"
@@crappyaccount hey, I see where you're coming from but don't miss the forest for the trees. I know it's easier to simply tell the other person that you don't know about their favorite thing but I guess as an ENTP, I can't bear to see someone's spark go out after that statement and then they have to slow down and explain everything to me. I know it doesn't make sense but Fe is pretty irrational. I don't advocate outright lying but this one is so innate that it just comes naturally and I never thought about it. You did make me think about the cons of it though. Thanks!
When I was a kid I attended a flee market with a shared stand with my friend. I knew the younger boy in the stand next to me and convinced him to sell his prescious glass swann to me for what was equal to 2 dollars less than his price. It took me a long time to convince him. And then I sold that swann to an adult for 2 dollars more than I bought it for - right in front of him. Just to see what that was like/maybe out of a deeper frustration. Who knows. That's got to be one of the most immoral things I have done. That episode has sort of become my moral guiding star ish, because it in hinsight just felt so wrong and I have since thought about how he looks back on it and if it has affected his view on people... Other than that I try to steer clear of immorale actions. But I have done a lot of pretending in my days, showing off and faking interests (or getting new ones, depending on how you look at it) in order to impress specific people or to fit in in a place. But I guess that's pretty normal.
@Ageu Deus Nietzsche mainly seemed to classify different types of morality, and definitely seemed to think that morality was preferable to amorality. When he described how god was dead, he then proceeded to write about how it needed to be replaced with something.
Cool video. I can relate to it in many ways. Since I was fairly young, I was a talented “manipulator.” By the time I was in middle school and high-school I became addicted to getting inside people’s heads and trying to bend their perceptions. I was obsessed with human behavior, especially the darker elements of humanity. You can’t really choose what you are attracted to. Now that I’m a bit older, I know myself, and know how to keep my shadow in check. There are times were I need to bring him out, but most of the time is spent taming him (my shadow). I know for a fact that I am a compilation of sub personalities, the more I can identify them and compartmentalize each of them, the more I am able to master each element attributed to each one. One must dedicate persistent practice while mining through ones subconscious. If you dig deep enough, you will find your shadow. The line between good and evil is constantly still as we sway back and forth along with the shadowy dance partner. Learn the dance, master it, and your shadow will no longer be two steps ahead of you. Btw, I’ve always related to the anti-hero archetype the most. This is the sort of characters I am attracted to. One of my favorite comic book characters as a kid was Venom from Spider-Man. So sick and twisted, but at the same time was a servant to the weak and vulnerable. Also, Hank Moody, from Californication was my idol in HS. Hahaha.
The fact that you have seen my favorite show makes me like your channel even more now. You actually inspired me to start my own psyc. channel some day, just busy with university at the moment. Thanks for the response, Nathan.
The error many people make in understanding Machiavellians is in assuming they disregard morals and empathy. Psychopaths and Narcissists use very short terms tactics to get what they want. The key to understanding Machiavellians is their very object and strategic view of life. They have extraordinary Cognitive Empathy. They are very accurate readers of human behavior and are very adept and understanding and predicting the motives and actions of others. So when including others in their plans they make (often very accurate) conclusions about the methods best used to deal with those people. If reciprocity gets the Machiavellian what they want, that is what they use. If treachery achieves that end, that is what they do. Machiavellians understand the Prisoner’s Dilemma better than other people. Other than simply applying a general strategy they apply a knowledge of the other party. If they know the other prisoner is likely to engage reciprocally they will not punish when it’s their turn. If the other person is going to engage in selfish gamesmanship the Machiavellian will beat them to the punch.
The philosophical psychopath really reminded me of Eurus from Sherlock, it’s such an interesting concept! She made me question morals and their point...I suppose the point is so that most people have a limited capability of doing terrible things - keeps society stable...
I'm an INTP who was raised by a psychopath, with a generally Machiavellian approach to life and relationships, though most probably think she'd qualify for sainthood. (No, I'm not joking, I'm not exaggerating, I didn't imagine it, etc, etc, etc. ) The vast majority of people don't believe anyone to be capable of the things she does. It's an immensely frustrating dilemma and means that it was easier to break off contact with everyone, move, and start anew, though the hardest part was knowing that she is still a danger to those around her. ....Even when I explain the risk to some friends, I still get responses such as, "Yeah, but don't you want to go visit her for Christmas?" Yep. Renew a relationship with a psychopath who would probably harm people I love to manipulate me and acquire control. That's exactly what my holiday needs. 🙄 On another hand, it's nice to consider that people can go through life and never realize what people are capable of. Long live their innocence!! ❤❤❤
@@genevieve4202 I wish I was able to maintain that innocence as a kid. I'm slightly machiavellianistic only because I'm quite cynical. unusual for an ENFP i suppose people are capable of terrible things, and a lot of the time, what stops them is knowledge about consequences they'd face, not real kindness.
Oh interesting with the minority strategies: I think maybe it's the same concept of "freeriding"?: That an exeption that works only works because the rest of the system works so well. Like Switzerland and tax heaven/nautrality policy. The tax heaven thing only works because other countries have high taxes -and the neutrality thing only works because other countries are fighting for freedom.
Ooh, I’ve never come across ”freeriding” as a concrete concept or how it applies to something like Switzerland, but that makes perfect sense. Super interesting!
So in Nov I was diagnosed with ASPD and I scored a 30/40 on the PCLR. Since then, I have been doing tons of research to see what is different about my personality vs a normal person. Philosophy and psychedelics have taught me so much. Unfortunately, the psychedelics actually have triggered more of my anti-social behaviors including my machiavellian tendencies. I realized I did not enjoy playing the characters I created for society however I understand the importance of doing so to fit in and get what I want. I don’t like following rules bec I know they are made to control people. My psychiatrist says I’m a “odd case” bec of my other tendencies but it has been a lot of fun to understand why I am the way I am
Stop me if this is too personal, but has there been anything in your childhood that could have cause this? And I'm also trying to figure out a way to bring the positive side of the dark triad for personal reasons.
Ok Nathan this video was exceptionally interesting to watch, so thank you 🙏 It’s fascinating to see you acquire data here and there and putting it all back together in a well-rounded synthesis. I knew about that program you mentioned at the end. I remember discovering it and being in awe of the results... it was kind a life lesson for me! PS: I’ll stop procrastinating the random videos I promised you (besides, you gave me an idea I want to develop 🧐)
An interesting topic. From what I have read, empathy is a core element in this, or should I say lack of empathy. Some people or born without the capacity to put themselves in other people shoes or fail to learn how to eventually do so (influenced by your genes and your environment). It is classified as a disorder once these thinking patterns and behaviour start interfering with your life. A significant percentage of the population are sociopaths: they won’t kill people, but don’t expect them to feel for their fellow humans. And of course, some of them excel in specific fields of competitive work where status is highly valued. Which is frightening when you think of it, since powerful people’s actions affects the rest of us. (Do you remember that American guy who were buying the patents of much needed medicine just to skyrocket the price?) Sure, taking some calculated risk and planning some moves to get a promotion isn’t evil.. humans are political animals after all... but.. once you win, is it worth it? What was the cost? How do you feel once you’re at the top? Yes I’m brandishing and waving my infp flag here. There’s no winning when your conscience knows something feels not right. Well... I guess that’s not a problem for sociopaths ah!
well the opposite can be said too, im sorry to offend you, but i heard this"is it worth it" argument a lot that , not everyone is like you,you can't expect to understand how a sociopath's brain works by reasoning with your non-sociopathic logic, that's just ignorant in my opinion
Not really. Machiavellian has empathy and is good at putting himself in your shoes, and that's exactly why he is good in manipulation. Machiavellians show empathy, but it's not its priority to use empathy.
If you know my aunt, you will know how it is so different than people people have normal competition in their life we just want success but machievallism wants the power and manipulate others in super bad way. My father is still under her manipulative mind like making my father thinks he own something for her but nah, she always using her older sister card that she has a power but act kind so she can manipulate others, Idk the further explanation for machievallism but if you are out of her box you will see how machievallism my aunt is. I know it is far for being narcissistic because she wants power and entitlement but act kind or make people own her so much because she show some power but not in narcissistic way.
You are so smart :O Can we have tea together and chat? I met a full blown psychopath once. I am pretty sure he was an INTJ. I think it was the scariest experience of my life. It took me six months to realize, but when I did I ran for the hills. I can really see your point when you talk about minorities deviations. One of the reasons why it took me so long to realize is precisely because I was not considering the possibility of him bein evil. Because people can't be evil, right? Wrong.
im not sure, if this would be fit for the topic of the video, but one thing i find interesting is how some people find it so easy to quantify life, like in the trolley problem, its a simple example but i feel like it illustrate well what im saying, there are a lot of people who simple awnser they would pull the lever cause its more likely that you will save someone good by saving 5 random people, and as far as i agree with that, i find it pretty weird how many of those people always thinks they are good and yet they speak without remorse how easily they would make that choice, i know that if put someone on that actual situation most people will just freeze save from one with a strong enough will to make that choice on a split second, but its interesting how people can so easily use mathematics to escape the weight of making a choice like, who lives and who dies, like how you talked about reasoning your way out of morality.
Another variation of the trolley problem I have heard of is that instead of a random person what if it was a relative like your mom or a really close friend that you had to sacrifice. Then suddenly most people would let five others die
@@moosamihran4839 i hadn't heard that one before but yeah it also a few more details about the problem, i think one way to see it is that most people are wired to think blood connections are more important thant race connections, like, there are hundreds of strangers on the street but you only have one mother, suddenly theres personal investment on it and it becomes way harder to use logic to avoid the dillema, and the fact that you know someone on the tracks is important too, you knew that person your entire life, you can judge if that person is good or evil or worthy saving, never saw someone actually trying to explain their reasoning for their choice for this one tho so i cant imagine what they might come up with, thanks for the input.
Fascinating comment indeed! My personal actions in the trolley problem would be to save no one. I wouldn't want to play along/justify the paradigm or game - one alternative would be to throw myself in from of the trolley! ~ Nathan
i remember being disappointed once and my little cousin (3 years old) said "there, there; its ok. I understand. You'll be alright." I knew that this child couldnt possibly understand my disappointment so i asked my little cousin "Do you want some chocolate?" of course the toddler became super excited and after some time asked me again for the chocolate. i then said "Well, now we're both disappointed :)" ... needless to say their parent wasnt very happy about the crying toddler.
@@MM-hy9bg if its any consolation, that toddler is now five and very smart. So now when i say something that gets the toddler excited and not follow up on it, the toddle would put their hand on their forehead sigh deeply and say "Jessie, i no like when you do this to me. Its ok i still love you." Then with their hands on their hips would walk away shaking their head like a middle aged disappointed parent. (Lesson is the toddler now has a higher emotional intelligence)
I think that generally, it is inherent that people have this cynical perception to be good and that be deemed doing what is wrong (and not the good/right) resonates "punishment". Thus, people tends to justify their action base on their favor, but this is where this "wrong perception" takes place. For committing actions out of good/bad intentions should not be the point of reference, but the TRUE end result. Wherein, the end justifies the means.
Sometimes the right thing to do is the percieved wrong things. As the usual right things can only hinder having the outcome it so desires that could only be brought by doing the percieved wrong things.
Machiavelli was many things, but he was not a bad person, he supported republics. He wrote the prince in hopes of teaching the duke of Florence (?) how to reunite Italy, and at the same time point out the flaws in a principality, by outlining all of the horrible stuff that are necessary to hold onto one. And he was very, very smart
This is why it irritates me to no end, and all but makes me look down on other's intelligence, when introverts are called "anti-social". We are not antagonistic to the laws and customs of society and what it considers acceptable. If anything, those who live the punk/anarchist lifestyle fit THAT category. We're asocial, which refers to the lack of motivation to engage in social interaction, or a preference for solitary activities. In my case, it extends further into limited opportunities for social interaction at all. And that was BEFORE the quarantining began. True, mankind has this desire for revenge. Thing is though, have we reduced ourselves to animals who have no control over our emotional/cognitional impulses and whether we act on them? The results from the prisoner's dilemma experiment would indicate as such. Those who have no emotional control are the ones who act out of revenge. The ones who CAN maintain such control are the ones who have transcended that primitively infantile need to retaliate. It's the same as casual sex. People reduce themselves to the aforementioned animals by saying "it's only natural" to do it, and thus become sluts and lechers who treat sex as if it were a simple game designed purely to satiate their lust.
Firstly, you are right concerning this topic and seem to be well versed. No doubt you are. Secondly, these platforms do serve to educate those out there, although many do not see (major fault). An astute Machiavellian would not "confess" or reveal much or would otherwise deflect. Knowing what I call the dark arts, I should throw in two cents. Machiavelli mentioned that it is not if you play the game for good or for ill, but how you play it. I would add to this that principles he started to illuminate and have been further enhanced by people in the future are neither good or bad. Indeed, there are a spectrum of overlapping traits among this Dark Triad construct. Many are made because of both nature and nurture. Some may not accept the bad side and strive to defend themselves and use the power to help and to hurt their adversaries. To avenge a wrong is always there. The euphoria of mastering a game can be quite narcissistic. Some see a god like aspect there. Happy holidaze!
I could never go by Machiavellian standards, as this is too dark, and I can't bear this psychological pressure, however, I always have it in my mind like Britain has "shadow government" where it is an opposing point of view and always consults me, telling me what can happen, in worst case scenario. I always encounter people like that in online games and in road traffic, people like that would always cut the traffic jam on the road side and then pressure their way into the lane, saying thank you with hazard lights afterwards, being chameleon-like, usually they always get ahead at the expense of others, who usually find them likeable for the sole reason of being extravagant, successful and lacking hateable rough edges.
Something I always say is: "If they don't like you, IMPOSE yourself on them!" Believe me this works... Though your ways of imposing yourself would vary from person to person
Had to deal with several narcissists throughout my life. One in a position of authority with whom I had profound respect until the typical betrayal occured. Another was a family member who I had to care for for 5 years until death. Knowing truly how little regard these people (narcissist, sociopath, ect.) have for others is a life altering experience. With the family member, I could tell him about how horrible a particular situation is in a confessional manner while hoping for support, but he would always bring it back to himself or belittle me.
I believe that immoral behavior is necessary in order to more solidify (and evolve) 'proper' behavior. Often times I take on the responsibly of acting immorally in order to help morality structures adjust and evolve. You're welcome society.
Crime and deviance are essential forces in the progress of social growth and development. In this same way it is essential to honour the dark side of your personality. Today’s obsession with narcissism and psychopathy creates tomorrows humanity, based of the transformation of yesterday’s. Power is not by nature to stagnate and be held in one place. It moves from pole to pole of its gradients set by opposing moral structures of society and it will always turn on itself to surpass. I would never wish for a society so secure it has no ‘bad guys’ as it would mean the actual evils are hidden forces, probably controlling the minds of our whole society from the top.
Nearly 6 decades of life to prepare me for the reality of my role as the goat that scapegoated his character as positioned to be the son of whom must never shine on his own without mother's permission has rose above my oppressor s thumb.
Very nice with some thoughts that can spur discussions and insights! More of this please 🙃 When I saw your Churchill quote I immediately came to think of a common theme discussed in language science: Do language shape reality or do reality shape language. And there are naturally 2 school in this fundamental question. But the discussion is so damn interesting. 'Cause everything we say and how we percieve the world is completely dependent of how we exist in the world aka our bodies: For instance, consider how we think of time as having a past that is behind us and future that is in front of us and pretty much moving in one direction (not the band): That is really informed by the fact that our eyes looks in the same direction that we are moving in - and that we have a front and a back. And our whole conception of talking about up and down and inside and outside maybe also stems from the fact that we have a body that has an "up" or a "down" an "inside" and an "outside". And the whole idea that "up" is positive and down is negative maybe comes from the fact that we carry our heads "on top". Language study is so extremely interesting (and I did study it a uni - along with a bunch of other stuff).
Has anyone watched the anime "Psycho Pass"? I watched it a few years ago and I can't remember very well, but I'd say the villain could be described as "machiavellian". Besides, it's an interesting and visually beautiful adult anime, that explores themes like morality, free will and other cool stuff. The characters have a slight tendency to give philosophical monologues though, so be warned lol
Coincidently I've thought about that while watching the video. It is possible that the villain might have been machiavellian but it was very clear that he had anti-social personality. He never felt remorse, guilt or any kind of empathy. I was also very impressed by the background reading they did for the anime. You don't get to see many productions that talk about Foucault or Weber everyday!
@@vhilofaye1618 now that I'm remembering it, I think you're right! I just remembered he had this grand plan and used any means to get to his end. But he's more complex that just that, that's why I loved the anime!
I think he was also a psychopath as he wasnt very impulsive about his actions never relied on his emotions and about machiavelliasm.I think he had more developed machiavelli traits then followed by psychopathy and sociopathy
My machiavellian move? That would be to allow the amateur machiavellian to think he/she is playing the game right while out powering and outmanouevring him/her. Poor souls! - INTJ
When you mentioned 'for our more power-hungry subscribers' and the third option popped out, my screen dimmed... (I know it's battery saver, but still... interesting coincidence)
4:57 Game Theory: Prisoner's Dilemma... an example-set-up is a situation where two prisoners suspected of burglary are taken into custody. However, policemen do not have enough evidence to convict them of that crime, only to convict them on the lesser charge of possession-of-stolen-goods. If neither confesses, (that is to say, they lie/cooperate with each other); they will both be charged with the one-year-prison-sentence each -- C. The police question them in separate interrogation rooms, which means that the two prisoners cannot communicate with one another, (hence imperfect information). The police try to convince each prisoner to confess the crime by offering each, individually, a 'get out of jail free card', (0-years-sentence) -- D -- but, the other one will be sentenced to a ten-years-prison-term -- A. If both prisoners confess (and therefore they defect); each prisoner will be receive and eight-year-sentence -- B. Both prisoners are offered the same deal and know the consequences of each action, (complete information), and are completely aware that the other one has been offered the exact same deal, (therefore, it’s common knowledge). The most cooperative and socially-optimal solution is for them both to lie (L) -- C-C, (that is to say, neither of the prisoners is to confess); so, they each serve (relatively short) one-year-sentences, (P1L... P1C; and, P2L... P2C). Confession (K) is the Dominant Strategy, however. Prisoner 1 (P1) has to maintain a belief about which choice Prisoner 2 (P2) is going to make, in order to choose his own best strategy. If P2 confesses (P2K); then, P1 will get either -8 (P1B) or 0 (P1D). But, if P2 lies (P2L); P1 will get either -10 or -1 -- P1A or P1C, respectively. If P1 assumes that P2 will choose to confess; P1 must choose his own best strategy given that P2 is to choose to confess: P1 can either confess [P1C, which pays -8 (P1B)] or lie [P1L, which pays -10 (P1A)]. The rational thing to do for P1 is to confess (P1C). Proceeding inversely, we analyze the beliefs of P2 about P1’s strategies, which gets us to the same point: the rational thing to do for P2 is to confess (P2K). Refer: policonomics.com/lp-game-theory2-prisoners-dilemma/ Game Theory is easily graphed in 2x2 grid-matrix, to show the four outcomes, as is shown in the linked article (above).
I think noticing finally that even "normal" people have fixed programs with their personality type sort of belittles all humans to the same degree they condemn psychos and narcissists of being fixed, everyone just has different illusions but they're all illusions
To me, this video brings up a lot of great philosophical issues. The foremost of which is why do Machiavellians seem to always have the advantage. Because those who are ruthless will ALWAYS have the advantage of those who inhabit the world as it seems. But the world is as the world does. The key is to be spiritual. When we are spiritual, we exist outside of the world in general. If one seeks to solve the problem of the world...well, that's a fool's journey...but if one seeks to truly comes to a full understanding, then that is something that occurs inside of the human experience. To be a true human is to be yourself fully, whatever that means. The true human experience is totally outside of the morality that we are taught as children.
In Ancient Greece, the Narcissists and Gnostisists were always at each other's throats over who should alter their name because people were always confusing them. Wishing to focus on other things, and not wanting to be thought as conceited, the Gnostisists changed their name to "Gnostics".
@@lovewho Apologies, Nathan. I Wrote , and should have written . (In my INTP mind, this was pretty funny play on words using fictional history, but only hi-lighting again why most INTPs need to stay away from attempting humor).
I actually found out yesterday that I have some serious trauma that happened to me in early adolesence and I think that is where I have my machiavellian traits from. I only have learned empathy which I very much care about since this learned empathy is from all of the dear characters I've met during my life. I also have experienced cunningness and have from time to time used this to manipulate people into giving me what I want. On another note I also have necrophilia which also comes from rejection in early adolesence and that same trauma also made me feel less about everything. It basically shaped me into someone with little to no emotion:)
Oh, interesting coincidence. I made a video about morality about three weeks ago. Contrary to "philosophical psychopaths", I reasoned my way into, not out of morality... this must make me an ex-psychopath (and I haven't completely lost my cunning ways, so no confessions from me :))!
My brother is machiavellian, probably a narcissist too.. he used to study machiavelli in his formative years and adopted his philosophy into his way of life and his dealing with people.. it is successful up to a point in that he successfully causes trouble and steals and lies but he isn't clever and people like me catch him out time and time again in sly acts of deceit and betrayal and decide to have nothing more to do with him. . It's a losers philosophy unless u want to have no honour or self respect .. or friends.
@OklamaJr . . He sure seemed to resent me which I think was groomed into him by our parents. He had no reason to resent me as I was the subject of the abuse and bullying yet he was spoiled and bought all sorts of luxuries that I never had. On top of that I spoiled him myself and kept forgiving his constant underhand acts of theft or betrayal. However, this was not wise as he managed to cause so much trouble with his treacherous behaviour that I am cut out of everything and have no contact with any family. Much better for it but much damage done. Some people choose the dark path. . Some don't. Il choose integrity whatever the consequences. My brother is living the karmic consequences of his behaviour now, 2 years on from my post. I am reborn, free from all the bs.. 🙏
#Confessionalcomments I'm a INTJ & I usually study people by asking questions & letting them talk. I also watch how they make decisions & weigh out risk (I have a 6 point scale of personality grading). I believe in getting people to do what I want by making them believe it's their idea. Got I can simply ask, but this is more fun for me. People are more likely to break from a idea or mission when it's not their own, but will die on the battlefield if they believe it's their idea.
I don’t think I’ve ever have really expressed Machiavellian tendencies, simply because I am weak in planning and executing long tern goals. Though I am capable of being devious or deceitful in the neat term to obtain some objective. It’s a tactics vs strategy duality.
hmm that idea about someone abandoning their morals by reasoning themselfs out of the consequence of their actions sounds interesting since i had chemical imbalance driven deppression and mania many years ago i kinda got hyperfixated on curiosity about limits of our brains and our emotional responses to things and back then alot of times i thought about how i would do everything i can to drive myself darker and darker with basically gore and stuff like realistically roleplaying grape scenes which did cause somewhat of a shock at that derealized state and well thinking back to it i am 100% sure i was lacking alot of my morals towards people, so that might be what caused it along with everything else.
I can't think of Machiavelli without thinking of Cesare Borgia, of course. I have always had a perverse crush the "character" of Cesare. Like a real historical version of Michael Corleone. You mentioned Machiavelli's point about fear and love being mutually exclusive. Cesare's enemys feared him. Many feared him, certainly. But his men loved him and were fiercely loyal. There is a fine line I suppose when dealing with mafiaesque personalities. If one is on the sweet side of their graces they are shown remarkable favor. But fall from grace, and get mercilessly garotted. Bruh, Now the soundtrack from Goodfellas is playing in my head. Why do I love mafioso movies? 😍Swoon😍
Have you heard of Martin Nowak? If not, I recommend his book, "Supercooperators: The Mathematics of Evolution, Altruism, and Human Behavior." His research is fascinating for these questions. It dismantles some of the paradigms set by Hamilton's rule and game theory. I am shamelessly interested in personalities that cross those "moral" boundaries, especially when it is done out of commitment to a principle or desire that everyone else secretly harbors but cannot express in order to uphold institutions (personal, educational, societal, religious, etc). Those personalities tend to be a catalyst for change when institutions become outmoded, but their lives are often tragic. The psychologist Harry Harlow is a favorite of mine. Nice try by the way. I'll never confess. 😈
Not a confession but I really liked the concept of a philosophical psychopath. And honestly, I keep trying to look for loopholes in "human morals" to justify whatever I do that might seem bad for other people But I also have a question, do psychopaths, narcissists and machiavellians ever get existential crisis? Because of they do, then what's the point of them (supposedly as what I heard) scouring all the attention, money and or power that they have? It just doesn't make sense to me But I'm saying this out of the base that I don't see the worth of all those materialistic things other than to survive. But we don't need to scour everything to survive now, do we?
My assumption is that they would never have an existential crisis but they might have a sense of hollowness that comes from the lack of deep and meaningful relationships they have ~ Nathan
@@lovewho what if two narcissists come together? will they join together or hate each other to their guts? I can see either of those happening tbh. narc 1 sees themselves in narc 2 and if they don't like themselves, they hate narc 2 with a passion, and vice versa or narc 1 sees someone who understands them and wouldn't vilify them for what they do, so forms an alliance with narc 2. whether they like or hate each other, I think they'll both admire or even respect each other somewhat because of their manipulation tactics with the other naïve, "sheep" people.
I mirrors people's body language and use there phase to gain rapport and try to do favors for them to build trust and get them in moral and financial debt to me to gain leverage over them
You should read ‘The Psychopath Inside’ - about a neuroscientist who discovers accidentally that he has a psychopathic brain from his own brain PET scan.
I’ve heard of that guy and I’ve watched a few interviews with him. Fascinating story. “The Good Psychopath” is also a fun read (or audiobook) if you haven’t already found it ~ Nathan
That's what I've thought as well... be generally good but if the gain by being bad is higher than the consequence(mainly bridges being burnt) then be bad.
Nathan, what type are you. I am INTP. By the way, can you do a "cognitive function theory", explaining cognitive functions in depth, and their correlation, and more (up to your imagination!
(I'm an ENTP) I used to consistently lie to and manipulate my teachers in school to get my way whenever I wanted. Most of the time this was to get out of doing work, then making up whatever I needed to so I could pass.
From a biological point of view, evolution had, and always will, favor utilitarianism over morality and kindness The example you gave about the prisoner’s dilemma was, in my opinion, misleading in the context of your video It was the computer’s utilitarian point of view to go for “tit for tat” and never the “be generally good” approach However, i really liked the way you highlighted how a Machiavellian person is neither a psychopath nor a narcissist For example (i hope my wife never reads this lol), i tend to be very cautious and alert in my relationships with those whom i value. For this reason, i do my best to make them love me, but also fear me. This makes my relationships feel fresh and vibrant, and never lets others consider taking me for granted I think one of the most important stages of maturity is when one decides to forego the idealisms learned as a child, read history, and understand the mechanics of the dark side of human nature Thanks for the video 🙏🏻
To justify is to step into someone else’s shoes,A saying that creates a somewhat juxta position of the parties in Question. Its easy to lash out,But not to one self.
I myself abide by machiavellianism and have done so even before i knew of them. most of the time that meant appearing less like competition and more like an outside viewer despite being quite competitive in most aspects of life. morality isnt something i ever think about and only ever concider how concequences directly involve me and weather the gamble is worth it.
As a Machiavellian, let me help you to understand my thought process as you may find it interesting. I will list simple straightforward points as you seem to be smart enough to fill in the blanks. As some background, when i was young i was the guy who bullied the bullies. I believe that its disgusting to harm someone who is unable to defend themselves. If i knock you to the ground, the threat has been neuteralized, although if i feel you may present a threat in the future, i have no issue stomping you out. I do not hit women as most are incapable of causing me physical harm. I look at people who are easily offended as weak, as i dont understand how human emotions can have so firm a grasp on the daily lives of those people. I look into the eyes of most humans and i dont see anything behind them, they are just sheep and i am a wolf. I enjoy destroying those who wish to harm the defenseless. I analize everyone i see and look for weaknesses, i will exploit those weaknesses as its fun to me. I see people who fail to accept the painful truth as pathetic. Generosity is difficult for me to accept as affection disgusts me. I see that the world runs on greed and i despise this. I hate manipulation of the masses but i understand that that is hypocritical as i subtlety manipulate those i do not care about because i know how to use psychology as a tool. I feel most people are stupid. I lack social skills as again, most human emotions do not make any sense to me. People ask if im "happy" why would i search for happiness if i dont like it? The emotion that i am most contempt with is anger, which i do understand is a primal instinct, but so is happyness. My previous point goes back to my view of myself as a "wolf", i feel that i analize more than most people do, i watch everyone and assess all factors. I may not feel your emotions but that doesnt mean i cant distinguish them and use them against you. I am guilty of using my close relatives as a tool and tossing them aside when they provide no use to me. I surround myself with those who think like me. The only people who i genuinely care about are my children, as i, like the wolf, are driven by the instincts that have free reign in the absence of human emotions. I do not let emotions cloud my judgement in the decision making process. I am mechanically mimded and see humans only as machines created by nature. I feel as though my way of thinking is superior, others see it as wrong but i have no regard for those who do so as they are just sheep to me, controlled by their prey mentalities. Yes, i am sinical and cold and calculating. It frusterates me that most humans seem to be dominated by their prey mentality, that they seem to have developed as civilization has domesticated itself. Humans are predatory animals, we are attracted to motion and our eyes are on the front of our heads, we stand upright. Only the strong survive in the real world and i believe that humans have averted natural selection for far too long. People compare me to "thanos" ive accepted that as i mostly agree with that philosophy, although its not difficult to find flaws in an ideology created by a comic book writer. I believe that you are your job, your goal should be to conduct that job in the most efficient mannor, that is your current purpose in life and i mean that literally. I have little regard for unnecessary posessions. I do not believe that there is a "good guy" but there is definately a "bad guy", and i have no issue in destroying said "bad guy". I agree with the philosophy that constructed morals have no place in most facets of life, although there is in some respects a distinguishment between "right" and "wrong", both have their places. I feel that ive gained my current mentality through my time in the military among other harsh life experiences, but if anything, i feel my eyes have been opened to what the real world truely is, how it operates, and that humans are just animals. If i am passionate about my goal, i will not let anything stand in my way. I enjoy the use of intimidation to remove the weak as an obstacle. I believe that physical violence is the last resort, but i am not afraid to use it. Laziness and complacency disgust me on a primal level. I understand that everyone, myself included, are inevitably hypocritical, although we must strive to negligate this. I will usually make an attempt to start off cooperative, but if i see that that strategy is not conducive to my goal, i will resort to the alternative. I see the minds of humans and all other animals as computers designed by evolution and natural selection and i enjoy analizing the minds of all animals to try to understant how conscious they actually are. I enjoy dark humor. Ive come to enjoy the adrenaline my body releases in response to what my mind interprets as impending death. I understand that i have a very primal way of thinking, but it is the most logical algorithm to me. I could go on all day, but i hope you find this insight into my thought process informative and that you are able to increase your comprehension of how my mind works. If you have any thoughts, im open and interested in hearing them, as life is just a quest to gain knowledge to pass on to the next generation for the continuation and survival of our species, the ultimate goal. I look forward to the possability of having an intelligent conversation with someone who has a greater understanding of the human mind than myself.
@@kanarayanaphd i was thinking about that possibility. If i am, its not concious, i dont see myself as more valuable than others' per say. I feel as though most humans are stupid. Yes i see how that may make me a narcissist, i verywell could be. If i am, thats something that i am actually willing to change.
4:30 ish you're talking about being unbound by morality. While I agree that it is unlikely for many people to become unbound completely by morality, it is absolutely the case that what you describe is carried out by everyone every day in certain matters of morality. Reason, as much as this INTP values it, is not a particularly trustworthy guide. Our will can (unconsciously) guide our reason as readily as it can guide our emotion.
As an INFP im a bit a shamed that i do have a psychopathic traits So basicly i took a psychopath test with my friend, i took it with a grain a salt ofc. All i know psychopath is ruthless, immoral and feel no emotions. I took the test and if i remembered correctly, i almost get a perfect score. My friends either get a half or less score. So if INFP is a personality that look out the world from a box, so basicly i changed my box, into someone different, its like changing my view to a psycho person. Im scarred and scared, luckily my friends didnt abandon me for that test and i didnt take that pshychotic traits into practice. Is there something wrong about me? Forgive my broken English
I don't think a simple test (online I assume?) would ever be good enough to assess whether or not you are an actual psychopath. Also, if you are an INFP (or maybe an introvert in general) I would assume that you scrutinize yourself and your own motives - so maybe it's just because you can see more emotions/motives in yourself compared to what other people can 😊
@@aniokay I changed my view of the world, i changed my view to be a psychopath's view when i took the test. It was an Oral test, thats why take it seriously. I think my father was an INTJ or some sort. Someone who can view the world in many ways, maybe it just rubbed off on me.
to be honest i won't lie about my true nature, i view life as "chacun pour soi", i can't emphatize with people and i won't force myself to do it because it really makes me feel not myself, I generally don't really care for anyone except my parents because i owe them raising and taking care of me, shame me all you want but that's my raw personality that i never revealed to anyone to make life easier
Okay I wanted my own room but not to pay for it, I got six different people agree to take on roomates out of fear of getting paired with others and got my own room my second and third semester of university using this.
The Dark Triads not the only game in town, mature INFJs are the Blue Triads, and are very formidable up against them... a force to be reckoned with. alessante.wordpress.com/2015/09/23/dark-triad-not-only-game-in-town/ [The ‘Blue’-term is based on ..Archangel St. Michael’s mantle-color, the ultramarine, as he’s wielding his sword to cast Lucifer into the depth of the Earth]. Just look at the INFJ traits for easily seeing thru social masks, natural lie detectors, given a free pass to see your inner core before others, our Ti makes us equally machiavellian (the original meaning - being evil for the common good) and we have natural defenses against wolves in sheeps clothing, like our paradox makes us a moving target. Dark Triads are about corruption and pain. INFJs are about harmony and healing. Polar opposites. INFJ spirit animal is also a wolf, a lone wolf sigma.
Contrary to popular belief, I'm not an undercover agent trying to identify psychopaths in the comment sections of our videos. Confess away...
oh ok yea ill talk
@@hananmo9109 fairly sure he is an INTP
@Nathan Glass yeah I believe you 🙃 😆 Lol!
That would be me..that's what I do
@Nathan Glass have you ever read the 48 laws of power? I recommend you do and can you talk more about philosophy? If you can I'd appreciate that thank you.
As a philosophy student: you can reason yourself out of any part of your normative system (morality), when it is overruled by another part of your normative system. Or put differently: it all depends on your value hierarchy, what you find the most important.
Sometimes achieving or protecting a goal, requires you harm or abandon another of your goals. If the value you put in the first goal supersedes that of the second one, and the second one is a moral consideration, then you are personally justified in acting immoral. Doesn't mean others will agree, though. ;)
The easiest (hypothetical) example being when stealing is the only option to feed your starving children. The goal of protecting and nourishing your child supersedes the injustice of you stealing from a merchant. (Well, or so I assume :p) It all depends on how much value you put in certain goals. And I tend to see values themselves as goals (trans-situational goals, to be precise).
This is excellent and highlights how our 'hierarchy of values' is very fluid and situation-dependant ~ Nathan
wouldn’t that then prove that morality isn’t really a real thing. it’s just certain principles built by rules that you’re essentially taught. most little children will steal until they’re told not to for example. stealing is seen as immoral, but why? because religion, government, etc, have constructed that as a “moral.”
Isn’t that just a philosophical explanation of cognitive dissonance ? It sure sounds like one
@@litty4553 I agree for the most part: I don't think most people realize just how much your priorities can shift when you end up in a struggle for survival.
@@mieralunarlunishion but Machiavellianism is not being in survival, it's about gaining POWER
At a certain point I was arguing with my INTP brother, and I got angry at him because he was being seriously disrespectful. When I told him that, he said: "I don't respect anybody's beliefs, why should yours be any different?" In all honesty, it was kind of refreshing to hear that.
I love that sentiment ~ Nathan
Such is what Jungians would say. LOL. I am an XVTTT from when I took the Personal Inventory Test.
I was once ghosted by someone who I thought was a friend. He allowed me to open up to him and trust him. We played soccer together, but as soon as soccer ended, he never talked to me again. He defriended me on the very platform he encouraged me to join, Snapchat. When I ran into him he acted like we never met. At the time, I became bitter and angry. I acted like a jerk to my friends and boyfriend. I pushed everyone away because I could no longer trust them. I didn't know it at the time, but it was subliminally because I was ghosted. When I found that out, I tried my best to trust my friends again. I'm not a bad person, just very sensitive.
Idk if this makes me an anti-moralist or not but I actually don’t think of good / bad as something that’s so binary and black and white. There is almost always something else to consider, like what is the person’s motive, their natural inclination, etc. Like the archetypes of anti-heroes and anti-villains don’t fit into that kind of binary system at all. I see what’s good and bad more as a long spectrum of gray. So I don’t necessarily agree that people are fundamentally good; I think people are fundamentally looking out for their own survival but that they WANT to be good, or at least to feel like they’re good. Hopefully this doesn’t come across as too cynical lol. (& I love the skull thumbnail btw!)
edit: just realized i was describing relativism.....
"Relativism" - I've often also thought that I espouse this philosophy but I'll have to look into it more. Also.. glad you like the skull! ~ Nathan
I agree. The gray area is far larger than any bit of black or white. Is there true black and true white or just true humanity? Im inclined to think the latter.
There is more than duality
A triqueta or more
dayum this is how i see good/ bad too!
The problem nowadays, particularly with social media) is that so many people are jumping onto these limited trains of thought (all good vs all bad).
The thing about Machiavelli is that he didn't appear to support Machiavellianism. He wrote one book that although it is written as a how to, its ultimate role seemed to be exposing how awful feudal politics and the hegemony of the catholic church were were right before the emergence of the nation-state as a replacement for feudal oaths and Catholic Hegemony (represented by events like the treaty of Westphalia, and the Protestant Reformation) and thereby one of the few moments in history when the social order managed to reset in order to be massively more ordered. Then in the Discourse on Levi, he advocates for a republic, and one of his reasons was that it did the best at preventing Machiavellian individuals from controlling everything. If you read the accounts of the church from that period it is hilarious the sort of controversies that went on among higher-ups in the church, and the fact that people were mostly drunk when they went to church. (If you want to hear them you should read the Sovereign Individual by James Dale Davidson and William Rees-Mogg)
Ok this is interesting and I was not aware of this! That would be so ironic that he unintentionally led to the creation of so many machiavellians out there ~ Nathan
@@lovewho This theory has come about because he was an ENTP who wrote The Prince as if he was an evil INTJ. You'd think he would actually be an INTJ when you read The Prince but finding out he is an ENTP complicates things since they like to play devil's advocate and troll people.
I spent along time at work trying to get ahead through competency and it was a real struggle. My boss would give me the work that nobody else was willing to do or that was difficult. I’m quite agreeable so I would do it but I started to become resentful as others who did far less were beginning to earn more. I started to identify weaknesses in certain people and find a way to put them in a situation where their weaknesses would be on display for management to see. I went from the absolute bottom of the company to being offered a position to move to the U.S to head a branch of the company over there. I never lied, but I was amazed at my own ability to find the softest part of a person and have them claw themselves open. It does make me feel powerful, although it’s exhausting and the funny thing is, I find the work incredibly boring. I’m an INTP.
I once took a dark triad test online in high school, and got Machiavellian over both Narcissistic and Psychopathic, almost completely overshadowing both. I then wrote a paper on the Dark Triad traits for a science abstract. It's definitely a good tool for measuring the darker elements of your personality, if you're on a journey of self discovery. For relatively anecdotal MBTI reference though, I'm an INTP.
It doesn't surprise me that your comment ended with "I'm an INTP!!" ~ Nathan
Same here. ~ INTJ
@@tendatonda1634 guess that's a mutual feeling
Wow cool. Same here. High Mach and INTP.
Edgy
When people start talking to me I will say vague comments and / or “ really, I didn’t know about that” on repeat to keep them talking.
It’s a win win in my book
I get to check out mental and go back to what I was thinking about, I get some random trivia for later on when I do check back in from time to time, and I never share anything about myself.
They get to vent / preach / gossip / whatever and it never leaves that room ( for obvious reasons) so people trust me, they have positive feels towards me and invite me places with them.
-intp
A Machiavellian Henry Kissinger quote: It is not a matter of what is true that counts but a matter of what is perceived to be true.
I only make friends who will benefit me in the long-term, who will do me favors, and who will engage me in conversation to sharpen my wits, and finally befriending people with good habits so I can imitate them. Otherwise, the effort required to make and keep friends isn't worth it.
i make friends that don’t hate me
im not a complainer
Same actually, i believe everyone works based off their own self interest.
This is an interesting view which I think many introverts adopt too! ~ Nathan
I can see why some choose this mindset. I can see myself leaning towards it in many ways depending on the time in my life.
It is the constant confrontation of other's hypocrisy, people's unwillingness to concede to another thought that negates their own or willful ignorance, people's tendency towards hatred or misunderstanding (choosing to believe the bad instead of the good in others), clinging to bias without doing the difficult work to tear your own bias apart and examine it, ascribing to logical fallacies without verifying your thoughts/beliefs against the truth, injustices due to people's corruption/greed/power, people's tendencies towards possession obsession, untethering from societal agreed upon morality standards due to a distrust of the systems and peoples that have adopted them (yet don't follow them, or excuse themselves but point the finger at those who aren't excused = hypocrisy), rejecting people's definition of 'good', 'moral', 'ethical' and creating your own definitions, slicing through people's bullshit, and/or rejecting the paradox of life that you must give what you wish to receive since it is dependent on other factors and life can be a paradox within a paradox (expend energy to get energy, be a friend to get a friend, be kind to receive kindness, eat less to weigh less, etc.).*
*Holy run-on sentence batman! lol. Sorry about that. I probably should have turned that into a list for readability. Let me know if it's confusing, and I'll edit it.
This was an interesting video, and has sent me down the rabbit hole to research. Thank you, Nathan, for another thought-provoking video.
Sending you down the rabbit hole means my work is done for today. This is a fascinating comment! ~ Nathan
@@lovewho Looking forward to more trips down the rabbit hole soon. I ended up reading a study called 'Beyond Sacrificial Harm: A two-dimensional model of utilitarian psychology'. Thank you for the carrot that led me there. ;)
Vague and unspecified is exactly how I like to be rewarded, how did you know?
That reward was specifically for you since I knew your imagination would fill in all the devious details ~ Nathan
Hahaha!
You know me so well ;)
My darkest trait of all is: I am so absolutetly good that, when they go bad, I can stand from above and go "hahaha, you silly child, now let me tell you what you should do to redeem".
But I'm working on expressing my vulnerability and faults and through that become even more... enlightened.
Well played. I officially declare you to be an enlightened being ~ Nathan
I watched this after taking a dark triad test and scoring very high in the Machiavellian rating. I find that I relate to a lot of the principals discussed. I enjoy strategy games a great deal and looking back, I'd say that while making deals in them, I have employed some of these principals, leading to my success. Great video! Thanks for putting this together!
around a year ago I was sitting in this lecture about Machiavelli and I couldn't help but wonder...
(as he ruled over and improved sociological condition in Florence)
was Machiavelli a power hungry ruler who had no morals in order to promote his own sense for grandiosity or
was he a deeply caring individual who realized that you can only come so far by doing "the right thing"
I believe that if the former was true he wouldnt publish a book about the tactics he uses, he would keep them for himself.
Maybe it's like George Carlin said 'behind every cynical man is a failed idealist'
Interesting idea! Sometimes there are only bad options if you want to achieve a moral outcome. Many people will opt to take neither option in order to have no 'obvious' blood on their hands whilst in reality being more guilty than the person who took the though choice ~ Nathan
@@lovewho It made me remember that Machiavelli wrote: "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis".
Well, he was an ENTP, which tells you everything you need to know. We can argue for things we don’t believe in, play devil’s advocate until we’re blue in the face, etc. He was not the kind of person he wrote about in The Prince.
Yes, the prison dilemma talk makes so much sense! Emotions are actually rational (I think you also touch on this idea in some other video) - because they tell us how to react in order to both maximise our own wellbeing but also fit into the group (shame and guilt is clearly a "fit-into the goup-emotion")
There are times where fitting into a group is so very overrated and a good example of that is cult of woke where people give up every sense of personal identity and purpose becoming a social clone where there is no free thought outside the cult.
Emotions can only maximise youre wellbeing in the short term. Emotions don't know if you will reach a higher well being by pushing through the scary emotions.
@LoveWho I've wondered this myself. This is a topic worthy of alot more discussion.
I will certainly revisit it! ~ Nathan
I really, really like your videos on MBTI but what keeps me watching is the subtle humour, the diction and the wit. Big like!
Be the good in the world. Emotions are contagious.
Ultimately no matter what your actions and or justifications may be, you have to live in yourself (mind and body) at the end of the day. Goodness is nourishment for both mind and body.❤️
Very well said ~ Nathan
well that's your opinion so i won't judge
Basically be as close to NF principles as possible, but also keep an eye on logic.
This is actually pretty solid life advice ~ Nathan
@@lovewho it's hard to maintain it ourselves lol, let alone inspire others haha -ENFJ
Yes.
-INFP
I know this video was posted months ago but I really love it! I was doing some research on Machiavelianism, because I am sure I had an area manager in my old company who had these traits. Lots of grey zone behaviors and lots of the fellow employees could sense something "Slimy" about him, but he didn't technically do anything wrong upfront like a narcissist or a psychopath would do. He often kept a very calm , poker face, sometimes friendly and cool composure, even offered opportunities and I noticed only if it meant that it would be used as evidence to suggest that they were doing everything they can to "Make the employee happy". But, when the time came for the interests of the company, for example the type of people they wanted, who was willing to conform everyone to a single culture or social group so that they could have a bit more control of the situation. As I remember, many employees felt like it was for the investors rather than the quality or purpose of the work. Before I was let go, I remember employees loosing it, because of the way they felt manipulated or talked down to. It was like the area manager knew the weaknesses of employees, and each person either lost it or felt completely confused. When it was my turn to receive these strange meetings that other employees described, I remember feeling manipulated or gaslighted for my efforts as if they were not real. We had iPads with a program that showed the results of our customers about how happy they felt with the service and communication, and I was a certified mentor and trained employees. At the time he was nice to me, he said he was impressed with the way I cared for others. But on a different day he was completely different, saying I wasnt doing enough and my communication was a failure, and that people were just saying I and other employees were doing a good job because we make them feel threatened by us (because many of them were Japanese). Or that I wasnt social enough with employees who met the ideals for the company (The much younger ones with wages much less than mine). It was incredibly strange. Nothing made sense, yet I couldnt and other employees couldnt prove that what they were doing was wrong. So I wondered if that was actually machiavellianism. We were all feeling confused when we were let go, and noticed that all the senior teachers that were 5+ like me felt like the conversations and his thoughts were really confusing and frustrating. While the new employees or "Obeying with out question employees" took over all of our positions such as my mentor position.
This might be a very small thing but as an ENTP , I can pretend to know a lot about something that I've never heard about( like a book or a band) - I use this to make friends with people in strange places. If I like that person then that very night, you'll find me googling all about BTS and romp about as a devout fan the next morning. So, I guess I lie and then make it come true to make friends.
This is such an ENTP comment indeed! ~ Nathan
I do that a lot too. Especially when I want to charm a specific person, it works miracles. It really must be an ENTP thing. I'd call it "tertiary Fe activation"
cunning indeed
Ooof NGL that irks me tremendously. Because it's fake either way.
@@crappyaccount hey, I see where you're coming from but don't miss the forest for the trees. I know it's easier to simply tell the other person that you don't know about their favorite thing but I guess as an ENTP, I can't bear to see someone's spark go out after that statement and then they have to slow down and explain everything to me. I know it doesn't make sense but Fe is pretty irrational. I don't advocate outright lying but this one is so innate that it just comes naturally and I never thought about it. You did make me think about the cons of it though. Thanks!
When I was a kid I attended a flee market with a shared stand with my friend. I knew the younger boy in the stand next to me and convinced him to sell his prescious glass swann to me for what was equal to 2 dollars less than his price. It took me a long time to convince him.
And then I sold that swann to an adult for 2 dollars more than I bought it for - right in front of him. Just to see what that was like/maybe out of a deeper frustration. Who knows.
That's got to be one of the most immoral things I have done.
That episode has sort of become my moral guiding star ish, because it in hinsight just felt so wrong and I have since thought about how he looks back on it and if it has affected his view on people...
Other than that I try to steer clear of immorale actions. But I have done a lot of pretending in my days, showing off and faking interests (or getting new ones, depending on how you look at it) in order to impress specific people or to fit in in a place. But I guess that's pretty normal.
Could you philosophy your way out of morality?
yes
Max Stirner's writings exist
I've just googled this person and I'm already excited to look into him. Thank you for this comment! ~ Nathan
I'm too afraid to google him.
Edit: But I will...
@Ageu Deus Nietzsche mainly seemed to classify different types of morality, and definitely seemed to think that morality was preferable to amorality. When he described how god was dead, he then proceeded to write about how it needed to be replaced with something.
Cool video. I can relate to it in many ways. Since I was fairly young, I was a talented “manipulator.” By the time I was in middle school and high-school I became addicted to getting inside people’s heads and trying to bend their perceptions. I was obsessed with human behavior, especially the darker elements of humanity. You can’t really choose what you are attracted to. Now that I’m a bit older, I know myself, and know how to keep my shadow in check. There are times were I need to bring him out, but most of the time is spent taming him (my shadow). I know for a fact that I am a compilation of sub personalities, the more I can identify them and compartmentalize each of them, the more I am able to master each element attributed to each one. One must dedicate persistent practice while mining through ones subconscious. If you dig deep enough, you will find your shadow. The line between good and evil is constantly still as we sway back and forth along with the shadowy dance partner. Learn the dance, master it, and your shadow will no longer be two steps ahead of you. Btw, I’ve always related to the anti-hero archetype the most. This is the sort of characters I am attracted to. One of my favorite comic book characters as a kid was Venom from Spider-Man. So sick and twisted, but at the same time was a servant to the weak and vulnerable. Also, Hank Moody, from Californication was my idol in HS. Hahaha.
Hank Moody is indeed a legendary character! I remember watching that entire show in one go when I first discovered it! ~ Nathan
The fact that you have seen my favorite show makes me like your channel even more now. You actually inspired me to start my own psyc. channel some day, just busy with university at the moment. Thanks for the response, Nathan.
The error many people make in understanding Machiavellians is in assuming they disregard morals and empathy. Psychopaths and Narcissists use very short terms tactics to get what they want. The key to understanding Machiavellians is their very object and strategic view of life. They have extraordinary Cognitive Empathy. They are very accurate readers of human behavior and are very adept and understanding and predicting the motives and actions of others. So when including others in their plans they make (often very accurate) conclusions about the methods best used to deal with those people. If reciprocity gets the Machiavellian what they want, that is what they use. If treachery achieves that end, that is what they do. Machiavellians understand the Prisoner’s Dilemma better than other people. Other than simply applying a general strategy they apply a knowledge of the other party. If they know the other prisoner is likely to engage reciprocally they will not punish when it’s their turn. If the other person is going to engage in selfish gamesmanship the Machiavellian will beat them to the punch.
The philosophical psychopath really reminded me of Eurus from Sherlock, it’s such an interesting concept! She made me question morals and their point...I suppose the point is so that most people have a limited capability of doing terrible things - keeps society stable...
Interesting comparison! I do love that show a lot. I remember re-watching the episodes of Season 2 over and over for months ~ Nathan
Good insights on machiavellianism
Why thank you... ~ Nathan
I'm an INTP who was raised by a psychopath, with a generally Machiavellian approach to life and relationships, though most probably think she'd qualify for sainthood.
(No, I'm not joking, I'm not exaggerating, I didn't imagine it, etc, etc, etc. )
The vast majority of people don't believe anyone to be capable of the things she does. It's an immensely frustrating dilemma and means that it was easier to break off contact with everyone, move, and start anew, though the hardest part was knowing that she is still a danger to those around her.
....Even when I explain the risk to some friends, I still get responses such as, "Yeah, but don't you want to go visit her for Christmas?"
Yep. Renew a relationship with a psychopath who would probably harm people I love to manipulate me and acquire control. That's exactly what my holiday needs. 🙄
On another hand, it's nice to consider that people can go through life and never realize what people are capable of. Long live their innocence!! ❤❤❤
long live their innocence indeed. A lot of what you wrote here resonates with me.
me as well. take care of yourself friends, but try to let go of any bitterness.
@@genevieve4202 I wish I was able to maintain that innocence as a kid. I'm slightly machiavellianistic only because I'm quite cynical. unusual for an ENFP i suppose
people are capable of terrible things, and a lot of the time, what stops them is knowledge about consequences they'd face, not real kindness.
“Yo mama insane ? What about Christmas tho?” As if Christmas was anyone’s main issue dude what the...
Never clicked SO FAST
Keep it up!
Hopefully it didn't disappoint! ~ Nathan
Oh interesting with the minority strategies: I think maybe it's the same concept of "freeriding"?: That an exeption that works only works because the rest of the system works so well. Like Switzerland and tax heaven/nautrality policy. The tax heaven thing only works because other countries have high taxes -and the neutrality thing only works because other countries are fighting for freedom.
Yes I think you're exactly right! ~ Nathan
Ooh, I’ve never come across ”freeriding” as a concrete concept or how it applies to something like Switzerland, but that makes perfect sense. Super interesting!
So in Nov I was diagnosed with ASPD and I scored a 30/40 on the PCLR. Since then, I have been doing tons of research to see what is different about my personality vs a normal person. Philosophy and psychedelics have taught me so much. Unfortunately, the psychedelics actually have triggered more of my anti-social behaviors including my machiavellian tendencies. I realized I did not enjoy playing the characters I created for society however I understand the importance of doing so to fit in and get what I want. I don’t like following rules bec I know they are made to control people. My psychiatrist says I’m a “odd case” bec of my other tendencies but it has been a lot of fun to understand why I am the way I am
Stop me if this is too personal, but has there been anything in your childhood that could have cause this? And I'm also trying to figure out a way to bring the positive side of the dark triad for personal reasons.
Ok Nathan this video was exceptionally interesting to watch, so thank you 🙏
It’s fascinating to see you acquire data here and there and putting it all back together in a well-rounded synthesis. I knew about that program you mentioned at the end. I remember discovering it and being in awe of the results... it was kind a life lesson for me!
PS: I’ll stop procrastinating the random videos I promised you (besides, you gave me an idea I want to develop 🧐)
I will forgive your procrastination. Now I'm curious about this idea you mentioned... ~ Nathan
An interesting topic. From what I have read, empathy is a core element in this, or should I say lack of empathy. Some people or born without the capacity to put themselves in other people shoes or fail to learn how to eventually do so (influenced by your genes and your environment). It is classified as a disorder once these thinking patterns and behaviour start interfering with your life. A significant percentage of the population are sociopaths: they won’t kill people, but don’t expect them to feel for their fellow humans. And of course, some of them excel in specific fields of competitive work where status is highly valued. Which is frightening when you think of it, since powerful people’s actions affects the rest of us. (Do you remember that American guy who were buying the patents of much needed medicine just to skyrocket the price?) Sure, taking some calculated risk and planning some moves to get a promotion isn’t evil.. humans are political animals after all... but.. once you win, is it worth it? What was the cost? How do you feel once you’re at the top? Yes I’m brandishing and waving my infp flag here. There’s no winning when your conscience knows something feels not right. Well... I guess that’s not a problem for sociopaths ah!
well the opposite can be said too, im sorry to offend you, but i heard this"is it worth it" argument a lot that , not everyone is like you,you can't expect to understand how a sociopath's brain works by reasoning with your non-sociopathic logic, that's just ignorant in my opinion
tenda tonda i am not offended, and you are entitled to your opinions.
Not really. Machiavellian has empathy and is good at putting himself in your shoes, and that's exactly why he is good in manipulation. Machiavellians show empathy, but it's not its priority to use empathy.
If you know my aunt, you will know how it is so different than people people have normal competition in their life we just want success but machievallism wants the power and manipulate others in super bad way. My father is still under her manipulative mind like making my father thinks he own something for her but nah, she always using her older sister card that she has a power but act kind so she can manipulate others, Idk the further explanation for machievallism but if you are out of her box you will see how machievallism my aunt is. I know it is far for being narcissistic because she wants power and entitlement but act kind or make people own her so much because she show some power but not in narcissistic way.
As an Intj, the answer to all 3 of those questions is "Yes ".
You are so smart :O
Can we have tea together and chat?
I met a full blown psychopath once. I am pretty sure he was an INTJ. I think it was the scariest experience of my life. It took me six months to realize, but when I did I ran for the hills. I can really see your point when you talk about minorities deviations. One of the reasons why it took me so long to realize is precisely because I was not considering the possibility of him bein evil. Because people can't be evil, right? Wrong.
I have a preference for Glengettie tea bags but yes ~ Nathan
im not sure, if this would be fit for the topic of the video, but one thing i find interesting is how some people find it so easy to quantify life, like in the trolley problem, its a simple example but i feel like it illustrate well what im saying, there are a lot of people who simple awnser they would pull the lever cause its more likely that you will save someone good by saving 5 random people, and as far as i agree with that, i find it pretty weird how many of those people always thinks they are good and yet they speak without remorse how easily they would make that choice, i know that if put someone on that actual situation most people will just freeze save from one with a strong enough will to make that choice on a split second, but its interesting how people can so easily use mathematics to escape the weight of making a choice like, who lives and who dies, like how you talked about reasoning your way out of morality.
Another variation of the trolley problem I have heard of is that instead of a random person what if it was a relative like your mom or a really close friend that you had to sacrifice. Then suddenly most people would let five others die
@@moosamihran4839 i hadn't heard that one before but yeah it also a few more details about the problem, i think one way to see it is that most people are wired to think blood connections are more important thant race connections, like, there are hundreds of strangers on the street but you only have one mother, suddenly theres personal investment on it and it becomes way harder to use logic to avoid the dillema, and the fact that you know someone on the tracks is important too, you knew that person your entire life, you can judge if that person is good or evil or worthy saving, never saw someone actually trying to explain their reasoning for their choice for this one tho so i cant imagine what they might come up with, thanks for the input.
Fascinating comment indeed! My personal actions in the trolley problem would be to save no one. I wouldn't want to play along/justify the paradigm or game - one alternative would be to throw myself in from of the trolley! ~ Nathan
explain how each personality committed a crime?
i remember being disappointed once and my little cousin (3 years old) said
"there, there; its ok. I understand. You'll be alright."
I knew that this child couldnt possibly understand my disappointment so i asked my little cousin
"Do you want some chocolate?" of course the toddler became super excited and after some time asked me again for the chocolate. i then said "Well, now we're both disappointed :)" ... needless to say their parent wasnt very happy about the crying toddler.
dont know if that counts
Hah! That is excellent. I mean... not very nice. Shame on you. 😏
Something's wrong with you. The baby tried to comfort you, and you tried to hurt the baby.
@@MM-hy9bg if its any consolation, that toddler is now five and very smart. So now when i say something that gets the toddler excited and not follow up on it, the toddle would put their hand on their forehead sigh deeply and say "Jessie, i no like when you do this to me. Its ok i still love you." Then with their hands on their hips would walk away shaking their head like a middle aged disappointed parent. (Lesson is the toddler now has a higher emotional intelligence)
@@bluejade88x "the toddler now has a higher emotional intelligence" exactly what I was thinking. not very nice, but it did help them anyway.
You're so thorough and precise, thank you for your efforts
Ahaha, i just saw your thumbnail, that's pretty funny!
I think that generally, it is inherent that people have this cynical perception to be good and that be deemed doing what is wrong (and not the good/right) resonates "punishment". Thus, people tends to justify their action base on their favor, but this is where this "wrong perception" takes place. For committing actions out of good/bad intentions should not be the point of reference, but the TRUE end result. Wherein, the end justifies the means.
3:25 was literally saying this last week at a kickback, thank you lol great vid
Sometimes the right thing to do is the percieved wrong things. As the usual right things can only hinder having the outcome it so desires that could only be brought by doing the percieved wrong things.
Machiavelli was many things, but he was not a bad person, he supported republics. He wrote the prince in hopes of teaching the duke of Florence (?) how to reunite Italy, and at the same time point out the flaws in a principality, by outlining all of the horrible stuff that are necessary to hold onto one. And he was very, very smart
This is why it irritates me to no end, and all but makes me look down on other's intelligence, when introverts are called "anti-social". We are not antagonistic to the laws and customs of society and what it considers acceptable. If anything, those who live the punk/anarchist lifestyle fit THAT category. We're asocial, which refers to the lack of motivation to engage in social interaction, or a preference for solitary activities. In my case, it extends further into limited opportunities for social interaction at all. And that was BEFORE the quarantining began.
True, mankind has this desire for revenge. Thing is though, have we reduced ourselves to animals who have no control over our emotional/cognitional impulses and whether we act on them? The results from the prisoner's dilemma experiment would indicate as such. Those who have no emotional control are the ones who act out of revenge. The ones who CAN maintain such control are the ones who have transcended that primitively infantile need to retaliate. It's the same as casual sex. People reduce themselves to the aforementioned animals by saying "it's only natural" to do it, and thus become sluts and lechers who treat sex as if it were a simple game designed purely to satiate their lust.
Oof
Every time I am nice to a stranger in public, I am being fake and manipulating their perception to serve me.
Firstly, you are right concerning this topic and seem to be well versed. No doubt you are. Secondly, these platforms do serve to educate those out there, although many do not see (major fault). An astute Machiavellian would not "confess" or reveal much or would otherwise deflect. Knowing what I call the dark arts, I should throw in two cents.
Machiavelli mentioned that it is not if you play the game for good or for ill, but how you play it. I would add to this that principles he started to illuminate and have been further enhanced by people in the future are neither good or bad.
Indeed, there are a spectrum of overlapping traits among this Dark Triad construct. Many are made because of both nature and nurture. Some may not accept the bad side and strive to defend themselves and use the power to help and to hurt their adversaries. To avenge a wrong is always there. The euphoria of mastering a game can be quite narcissistic. Some see a god like aspect there.
Happy holidaze!
And yet again we have another great video
Well... flattery will get you everywhere as always.. ~ Nathan
I could never go by Machiavellian standards, as this is too dark, and I can't bear this psychological pressure, however, I always have it in my mind like Britain has "shadow government" where it is an opposing point of view and always consults me, telling me what can happen, in worst case scenario.
I always encounter people like that in online games and in road traffic, people like that would always cut the traffic jam on the road side and then pressure their way into the lane, saying thank you with hazard lights afterwards, being chameleon-like, usually they always get ahead at the expense of others, who usually find them likeable for the sole reason of being extravagant, successful and lacking hateable rough edges.
People that cut into the lane are THE WORST, I'm officially vowing right here and now to avoid ever letting someone cut in from now on ~ Nathan
Something I always say is: "If they don't like you, IMPOSE yourself on them!" Believe me this works...
Though your ways of imposing yourself would vary from person to person
Love an “MBTI channel” managed by an INTP... warms my cold heart
Had to deal with several narcissists throughout my life. One in a position of authority with whom I had profound respect until the typical betrayal occured. Another was a family member who I had to care for for 5 years until death. Knowing truly how little regard these people (narcissist, sociopath, ect.) have for others is a life altering experience. With the family member, I could tell him about how horrible a particular situation is in a confessional manner while hoping for support, but he would always bring it back to himself or belittle me.
100% been through what you're talking about--glad you're out of the situation. It's soul crushing.
I believe that immoral behavior is necessary in order to more solidify (and evolve) 'proper' behavior. Often times I take on the responsibly of acting immorally in order to help morality structures adjust and evolve. You're welcome society.
That is interesting. Do you really do it because of the motive you mentioned or is it just an afterthought 😉
Thats the best whey to go abaut it in my opinion
Solid video brother, im glad I came across this
"It's like butterfly wings: once touched, they never get off the ground." (Milton)
I can sense the presence of INTJs hesitating to confess, in fear of uncovering the heineousness of a certain act they have done in the past.
i feel ashamed
@@bijayapokharel730 i feel ya
@@hamzailarzeg i still dont if intj tho i think i want to supress that side of me
@@hamzailarzeg tryin hard to be morally correct shifting paradigm but its so tiresome sometimes lmao
@@bijayapokharel730 Perhaps.. certain decisions require forbidden acts of immorality.
Crime and deviance are essential forces in the progress of social growth and development. In this same way it is essential to honour the dark side of your personality.
Today’s obsession with narcissism and psychopathy creates tomorrows humanity, based of the transformation of yesterday’s. Power is not by nature to stagnate and be held in one place. It moves from pole to pole of its gradients set by opposing moral structures of society and it will always turn on itself to surpass.
I would never wish for a society so secure it has no ‘bad guys’ as it would mean the actual evils are hidden forces, probably controlling the minds of our whole society from the top.
Nearly 6 decades of life to prepare me for the reality of my role as the goat that scapegoated his character as positioned to be the son of whom must never shine on his own without mother's permission has rose above my oppressor s thumb.
Very nice with some thoughts that can spur discussions and insights! More of this please 🙃
When I saw your Churchill quote I immediately came to think of a common theme discussed in language science: Do language shape reality or do reality shape language. And there are naturally 2 school in this fundamental question. But the discussion is so damn interesting. 'Cause everything we say and how we percieve the world is completely dependent of how we exist in the world aka our bodies: For instance, consider how we think of time as having a past that is behind us and future that is in front of us and pretty much moving in one direction (not the band): That is really informed by the fact that our eyes looks in the same direction that we are moving in - and that we have a front and a back. And our whole conception of talking about up and down and inside and outside maybe also stems from the fact that we have a body that has an "up" or a "down" an "inside" and an "outside". And the whole idea that "up" is positive and down is negative maybe comes from the fact that we carry our heads "on top". Language study is so extremely interesting (and I did study it a uni - along with a bunch of other stuff).
Has anyone watched the anime "Psycho Pass"? I watched it a few years ago and I can't remember very well, but I'd say the villain could be described as "machiavellian". Besides, it's an interesting and visually beautiful adult anime, that explores themes like morality, free will and other cool stuff. The characters have a slight tendency to give philosophical monologues though, so be warned lol
Coincidently I've thought about that while watching the video. It is possible that the villain might have been machiavellian but it was very clear that he had anti-social personality. He never felt remorse, guilt or any kind of empathy. I was also very impressed by the background reading they did for the anime. You don't get to see many productions that talk about Foucault or Weber everyday!
@@vhilofaye1618 now that I'm remembering it, I think you're right! I just remembered he had this grand plan and used any means to get to his end. But he's more complex that just that, that's why I loved the anime!
I think he was also a psychopath as he wasnt very impulsive about his actions never relied on his emotions and about machiavelliasm.I think he had more developed machiavelli traits then followed by psychopathy and sociopathy
My machiavellian move? That would be to allow the amateur machiavellian to think he/she is playing the game right while out powering and outmanouevring him/her. Poor souls! - INTJ
Dammmmnnnnn, well played ~ Nathan
I too have the same move with The Dark Triad. It is the only way to crush them. Please don't challenge my mind! --------INTJ
When you mentioned 'for our more power-hungry subscribers' and the third option popped out, my screen dimmed...
(I know it's battery saver, but still... interesting coincidence)
Spooky stuff... ~ Nathan
4:57 Game Theory: Prisoner's Dilemma... an example-set-up is a situation where two prisoners suspected of burglary are taken into custody. However, policemen do not have enough evidence to convict them of that crime, only to convict them on the lesser charge of possession-of-stolen-goods.
If neither confesses, (that is to say, they lie/cooperate with each other); they will both be charged with the one-year-prison-sentence each -- C. The police question them in separate interrogation rooms, which means that the two prisoners cannot communicate with one another, (hence imperfect information). The police try to convince each prisoner to confess the crime by offering each, individually, a 'get out of jail free card', (0-years-sentence) -- D -- but, the other one will be sentenced to a ten-years-prison-term -- A. If both prisoners confess (and therefore they defect); each prisoner will be receive and eight-year-sentence -- B. Both prisoners are offered the same deal and know the consequences of each action, (complete information), and are completely aware that the other one has been offered the exact same deal, (therefore, it’s common knowledge).
The most cooperative and socially-optimal solution is for them both to lie (L) -- C-C, (that is to say, neither of the prisoners is to confess); so, they each serve (relatively short) one-year-sentences, (P1L... P1C; and, P2L... P2C). Confession (K) is the Dominant Strategy, however.
Prisoner 1 (P1) has to maintain a belief about which choice Prisoner 2 (P2) is going to make, in order to choose his own best strategy. If P2 confesses (P2K); then, P1 will get either -8 (P1B) or 0 (P1D). But, if P2 lies (P2L); P1 will get either -10 or -1 -- P1A or P1C, respectively. If P1 assumes that P2 will choose to confess; P1 must choose his own best strategy given that P2 is to choose to confess: P1 can either confess [P1C, which pays -8 (P1B)] or lie [P1L, which pays -10 (P1A)]. The rational thing to do for P1 is to confess (P1C). Proceeding inversely, we analyze the beliefs of P2 about P1’s strategies, which gets us to the same point: the rational thing to do for P2 is to confess (P2K). Refer: policonomics.com/lp-game-theory2-prisoners-dilemma/
Game Theory is easily graphed in 2x2 grid-matrix, to show the four outcomes, as is shown in the linked article (above).
I think noticing finally that even "normal" people have fixed programs with their personality type sort of belittles all humans to the same degree they condemn psychos and narcissists of being fixed, everyone just has different illusions but they're all illusions
I'd rather own my ruthlessness than to play fair. It's a stragety that just works.
Beautifully Machiavellian comment ~ Nathan
To me, this video brings up a lot of great philosophical issues. The foremost of which is why do Machiavellians seem to always have the advantage. Because those who are ruthless will ALWAYS have the advantage of those who inhabit the world as it seems. But the world is as the world does. The key is to be spiritual. When we are spiritual, we exist outside of the world in general.
If one seeks to solve the problem of the world...well, that's a fool's journey...but if one seeks to truly comes to a full understanding, then that is something that occurs inside of the human experience.
To be a true human is to be yourself fully, whatever that means. The true human experience is totally outside of the morality that we are taught as children.
In Ancient Greece, the Narcissists and Gnostisists were always at each other's throats over who should alter their name because people were always confusing them. Wishing to focus on other things, and not wanting to be thought as conceited, the Gnostisists changed their name to "Gnostics".
Dropping some serious knowledge bombs here! ~ Nathan
@@lovewho Apologies, Nathan. I Wrote , and should have written . (In my INTP mind, this was pretty funny play on words using fictional history, but only hi-lighting again why most INTPs need to stay away from attempting humor).
I actually found out yesterday that I have some serious trauma that happened to me in early adolesence and I think that is where I have my machiavellian traits from. I only have learned empathy which I very much care about since this learned empathy is from all of the dear characters I've met during my life. I also have experienced cunningness and have from time to time used this to manipulate people into giving me what I want. On another note I also have necrophilia which also comes from rejection in early adolesence and that same trauma also made me feel less about everything. It basically shaped me into someone with little to no emotion:)
Oh, interesting coincidence. I made a video about morality about three weeks ago. Contrary to "philosophical psychopaths", I reasoned my way into, not out of morality... this must make me an ex-psychopath (and I haven't completely lost my cunning ways, so no confessions from me :))!
I'm both equally glad to see you firmly on the side of the good guys whilst retaining some cunning just in case ~ Nathan
My brother is machiavellian, probably a narcissist too.. he used to study machiavelli in his formative years and adopted his philosophy into his way of life and his dealing with people.. it is successful up to a point in that he successfully causes trouble and steals and lies but he isn't clever and people like me catch him out time and time again in sly acts of deceit and betrayal and decide to have nothing more to do with him. .
It's a losers philosophy unless u want to have no honour or self respect .. or friends.
What I’ve noticed is Machiavellian traits only work in positions of power. Covert manipulation is where the most of true Machiavellians thrive in.
It sound like your brother gave up on friends and love and decided to become a agent of chaos out of ressentment
@OklamaJr . . He sure seemed to resent me which I think was groomed into him by our parents. He had no reason to resent me as I was the subject of the abuse and bullying yet he was spoiled and bought all sorts of luxuries that I never had. On top of that I spoiled him myself and kept forgiving his constant underhand acts of theft or betrayal.
However, this was not wise as he managed to cause so much trouble with his treacherous behaviour that I am cut out of everything and have no contact with any family. Much better for it but much damage done.
Some people choose the dark path. . Some don't.
Il choose integrity whatever the consequences.
My brother is living the karmic consequences of his behaviour now, 2 years on from my post.
I am reborn, free from all the bs..
🙏
#Confessionalcomments I'm a INTJ & I usually study people by asking questions & letting them talk. I also watch how they make decisions & weigh out risk (I have a 6 point scale of personality grading).
I believe in getting people to do what I want by making them believe it's their idea. Got I can simply ask, but this is more fun for me.
People are more likely to break from a idea or mission when it's not their own, but will die on the battlefield if they believe it's their idea.
Could you tell what those 6 point scale of personality grading are?
I don’t think I’ve ever have really expressed Machiavellian tendencies, simply because I am weak in planning and executing long tern goals. Though I am capable of being devious or deceitful in the neat term to obtain some objective. It’s a tactics vs strategy duality.
hmm that idea about someone abandoning their morals by reasoning themselfs out of the consequence of their actions sounds interesting since i had chemical imbalance driven deppression and mania many years ago i kinda got hyperfixated on curiosity about limits of our brains and our emotional responses to things and back then alot of times i thought about how i would do everything i can to drive myself darker and darker with basically gore and stuff like realistically roleplaying grape scenes which did cause somewhat of a shock at that derealized state and well thinking back to it i am 100% sure i was lacking alot of my morals towards people, so that might be what caused it along with everything else.
I can't think of Machiavelli without thinking of Cesare Borgia, of course. I have always had a perverse crush the "character" of Cesare. Like a real historical version of Michael Corleone. You mentioned Machiavelli's point about fear and love being mutually exclusive. Cesare's enemys feared him. Many feared him, certainly. But his men loved him and were fiercely loyal. There is a fine line I suppose when dealing with mafiaesque personalities. If one is on the sweet side of their graces they are shown remarkable favor. But fall from grace, and get mercilessly garotted.
Bruh, Now the soundtrack from Goodfellas is playing in my head. Why do I love mafioso movies? 😍Swoon😍
Have you heard of Martin Nowak? If not, I recommend his book, "Supercooperators: The Mathematics of Evolution, Altruism, and Human Behavior." His research is fascinating for these questions. It dismantles some of the paradigms set by Hamilton's rule and game theory.
I am shamelessly interested in personalities that cross those "moral" boundaries, especially when it is done out of commitment to a principle or desire that everyone else secretly harbors but cannot express in order to uphold institutions (personal, educational, societal, religious, etc). Those personalities tend to be a catalyst for change when institutions become outmoded, but their lives are often tragic. The psychologist Harry Harlow is a favorite of mine.
Nice try by the way. I'll never confess. 😈
Thank you so much for this recommendation, this is right up my street and I will check it out! ~ Nathan
@@lovewho Figured I had the right address! If you do end up reading it, I'd be most pleased to hear your thoughts.
Strangely I also like knowing about the dark sides like this very much
Not a confession but I really liked the concept of a philosophical psychopath. And honestly, I keep trying to look for loopholes in "human morals" to justify whatever I do that might seem bad for other people
But I also have a question, do psychopaths, narcissists and machiavellians ever get existential crisis? Because of they do, then what's the point of them (supposedly as what I heard) scouring all the attention, money and or power that they have? It just doesn't make sense to me
But I'm saying this out of the base that I don't see the worth of all those materialistic things other than to survive. But we don't need to scour everything to survive now, do we?
My assumption is that they would never have an existential crisis but they might have a sense of hollowness that comes from the lack of deep and meaningful relationships they have ~ Nathan
@@lovewho what if two narcissists come together? will they join together or hate each other to their guts?
I can see either of those happening tbh. narc 1 sees themselves in narc 2 and if they don't like themselves, they hate narc 2 with a passion, and vice versa
or narc 1 sees someone who understands them and wouldn't vilify them for what they do, so forms an alliance with narc 2.
whether they like or hate each other, I think they'll both admire or even respect each other somewhat because of their manipulation tactics with the other naïve, "sheep" people.
I mirrors people's body language and use there phase to gain rapport and try to do favors for them to build trust and get them in moral and financial debt to me to gain leverage over them
Captain Price going dark. he may have been onto something saying that.
“even extreme nihilist....” well optimism is the peak of Nihilism. Fait
You should read ‘The Psychopath Inside’ - about a neuroscientist who discovers accidentally that he has a psychopathic brain from his own brain PET scan.
I’ve heard of that guy and I’ve watched a few interviews with him. Fascinating story. “The Good Psychopath” is also a fun read (or audiobook) if you haven’t already found it ~ Nathan
Sounds like a super power. Very cool
That's what I've thought as well... be generally good but if the gain by being bad is higher than the consequence(mainly bridges being burnt) then be bad.
Nathan, what type are you. I am INTP.
By the way, can you do a "cognitive function theory", explaining cognitive functions in depth, and their correlation, and more (up to your imagination!
I believe him to be INTP.
Nathan seems to be avoiding disclosing his type to the public but I think everyone generally agrees the he at least comes across like an INTP.
Do you had me at Dark Triad. This is my favorite video to date.
"A Good Marriage" a novella by Steven King is an example where one may crossover to the 'dark side' .
Interesting, I’ll have to check that one out! ~ Nathan
(I'm an ENTP) I used to consistently lie to and manipulate my teachers in school to get my way whenever I wanted. Most of the time this was to get out of doing work, then making up whatever I needed to so I could pass.
From a biological point of view, evolution had, and always will, favor utilitarianism over morality and kindness
The example you gave about the prisoner’s dilemma was, in my opinion, misleading in the context of your video
It was the computer’s utilitarian point of view to go for “tit for tat” and never the “be generally good” approach
However, i really liked the way you highlighted how a Machiavellian person is neither a psychopath nor a narcissist
For example (i hope my wife never reads this lol), i tend to be very cautious and alert in my relationships with those whom i value. For this reason, i do my best to make them love me, but also fear me. This makes my relationships feel fresh and vibrant, and never lets others consider taking me for granted
I think one of the most important stages of maturity is when one decides to forego the idealisms learned as a child, read history, and understand the mechanics of the dark side of human nature
Thanks for the video 🙏🏻
To justify is to step into someone else’s shoes,A saying that creates a somewhat juxta position of the parties in Question. Its easy to lash out,But not to one self.
if you want an interesting example of this, you can always watch the last episode of the BBC Sherlock series; Euros is pretty intriguing
Cool that you respond to every comment.
I myself abide by machiavellianism and have done so even before i knew of them. most of the time that meant appearing less like competition and more like an outside viewer despite being quite competitive in most aspects of life. morality isnt something i ever think about and only ever concider how concequences directly involve me and weather the gamble is worth it.
6 seconds in my research and I have already had to pause the video to laughter.
As a Machiavellian, let me help you to understand my thought process as you may find it interesting. I will list simple straightforward points as you seem to be smart enough to fill in the blanks. As some background, when i was young i was the guy who bullied the bullies. I believe that its disgusting to harm someone who is unable to defend themselves. If i knock you to the ground, the threat has been neuteralized, although if i feel you may present a threat in the future, i have no issue stomping you out. I do not hit women as most are incapable of causing me physical harm. I look at people who are easily offended as weak, as i dont understand how human emotions can have so firm a grasp on the daily lives of those people. I look into the eyes of most humans and i dont see anything behind them, they are just sheep and i am a wolf. I enjoy destroying those who wish to harm the defenseless. I analize everyone i see and look for weaknesses, i will exploit those weaknesses as its fun to me. I see people who fail to accept the painful truth as pathetic. Generosity is difficult for me to accept as affection disgusts me. I see that the world runs on greed and i despise this. I hate manipulation of the masses but i understand that that is hypocritical as i subtlety manipulate those i do not care about because i know how to use psychology as a tool. I feel most people are stupid. I lack social skills as again, most human emotions do not make any sense to me. People ask if im "happy" why would i search for happiness if i dont like it? The emotion that i am most contempt with is anger, which i do understand is a primal instinct, but so is happyness. My previous point goes back to my view of myself as a "wolf", i feel that i analize more than most people do, i watch everyone and assess all factors. I may not feel your emotions but that doesnt mean i cant distinguish them and use them against you. I am guilty of using my close relatives as a tool and tossing them aside when they provide no use to me. I surround myself with those who think like me. The only people who i genuinely care about are my children, as i, like the wolf, are driven by the instincts that have free reign in the absence of human emotions. I do not let emotions cloud my judgement in the decision making process. I am mechanically mimded and see humans only as machines created by nature. I feel as though my way of thinking is superior, others see it as wrong but i have no regard for those who do so as they are just sheep to me, controlled by their prey mentalities. Yes, i am sinical and cold and calculating. It frusterates me that most humans seem to be dominated by their prey mentality, that they seem to have developed as civilization has domesticated itself. Humans are predatory animals, we are attracted to motion and our eyes are on the front of our heads, we stand upright. Only the strong survive in the real world and i believe that humans have averted natural selection for far too long. People compare me to "thanos" ive accepted that as i mostly agree with that philosophy, although its not difficult to find flaws in an ideology created by a comic book writer. I believe that you are your job, your goal should be to conduct that job in the most efficient mannor, that is your current purpose in life and i mean that literally. I have little regard for unnecessary posessions. I do not believe that there is a "good guy" but there is definately a "bad guy", and i have no issue in destroying said "bad guy". I agree with the philosophy that constructed morals have no place in most facets of life, although there is in some respects a distinguishment between "right" and "wrong", both have their places. I feel that ive gained my current mentality through my time in the military among other harsh life experiences, but if anything, i feel my eyes have been opened to what the real world truely is, how it operates, and that humans are just animals. If i am passionate about my goal, i will not let anything stand in my way. I enjoy the use of intimidation to remove the weak as an obstacle. I believe that physical violence is the last resort, but i am not afraid to use it. Laziness and complacency disgust me on a primal level. I understand that everyone, myself included, are inevitably hypocritical, although we must strive to negligate this. I will usually make an attempt to start off cooperative, but if i see that that strategy is not conducive to my goal, i will resort to the alternative. I see the minds of humans and all other animals as computers designed by evolution and natural selection and i enjoy analizing the minds of all animals to try to understant how conscious they actually are. I enjoy dark humor. Ive come to enjoy the adrenaline my body releases in response to what my mind interprets as impending death. I understand that i have a very primal way of thinking, but it is the most logical algorithm to me. I could go on all day, but i hope you find this insight into my thought process informative and that you are able to increase your comprehension of how my mind works. If you have any thoughts, im open and interested in hearing them, as life is just a quest to gain knowledge to pass on to the next generation for the continuation and survival of our species, the ultimate goal. I look forward to the possability of having an intelligent conversation with someone who has a greater understanding of the human mind than myself.
I read the whole thing and you sound like a narcissist
@@kanarayanaphd i was thinking about that possibility. If i am, its not concious, i dont see myself as more valuable than others' per say. I feel as though most humans are stupid. Yes i see how that may make me a narcissist, i verywell could be. If i am, thats something that i am actually willing to change.
@@Pallium_Industries narcissism is rarely conscious
@@kanarayanaphd lol he isn't a narcissist. Narcissists aren't self aware. This guy is self aware.
Described me perfectly
4:30 ish you're talking about being unbound by morality. While I agree that it is unlikely for many people to become unbound completely by morality, it is absolutely the case that what you describe is carried out by everyone every day in certain matters of morality. Reason, as much as this INTP values it, is not a particularly trustworthy guide. Our will can (unconsciously) guide our reason as readily as it can guide our emotion.
As an INFP im a bit a shamed that i do have a psychopathic traits
So basicly i took a psychopath test with my friend, i took it with a grain a salt ofc. All i know psychopath is ruthless, immoral and feel no emotions. I took the test and if i remembered correctly, i almost get a perfect score. My friends either get a half or less score. So if INFP is a personality that look out the world from a box, so basicly i changed my box, into someone different, its like changing my view to a psycho person. Im scarred and scared, luckily my friends didnt abandon me for that test and i didnt take that pshychotic traits into practice. Is there something wrong about me?
Forgive my broken English
I don't think a simple test (online I assume?) would ever be good enough to assess whether or not you are an actual psychopath. Also, if you are an INFP (or maybe an introvert in general) I would assume that you scrutinize yourself and your own motives - so maybe it's just because you can see more emotions/motives in yourself compared to what other people can 😊
@@aniokay I changed my view of the world, i changed my view to be a psychopath's view when i took the test. It was an Oral test, thats why take it seriously.
I think my father was an INTJ or some sort. Someone who can view the world in many ways, maybe it just rubbed off on me.
@@dwiparanggipurba8745 Yeah okay :-)
to be honest i won't lie about my true nature, i view life as "chacun pour soi", i can't emphatize with people and i won't force myself to do it because it really makes me feel not myself, I generally don't really care for anyone except my parents because i owe them raising and taking care of me, shame me all you want but that's my raw personality that i never revealed to anyone to make life easier
Ah yes, so raw and intense.
Okay I wanted my own room but not to pay for it, I got six different people agree to take on roomates out of fear of getting paired with others and got my own room my second and third semester of university using this.
The Dark Triads not the only game in town, mature INFJs are the Blue Triads, and are very formidable up against them... a force to be reckoned with.
alessante.wordpress.com/2015/09/23/dark-triad-not-only-game-in-town/
[The ‘Blue’-term is based on ..Archangel St. Michael’s mantle-color, the ultramarine, as he’s wielding his sword to cast Lucifer into the depth of the Earth].
Just look at the INFJ traits for easily seeing thru social masks, natural lie detectors, given a free pass to see your inner core before others, our Ti makes us equally machiavellian (the original meaning - being evil for the common good) and we have natural defenses against wolves in sheeps clothing, like our paradox makes us a moving target.
Dark Triads are about corruption and pain.
INFJs are about harmony and healing. Polar opposites.
INFJ spirit animal is also a wolf, a lone wolf sigma.
What are your thoughts on INTPs?
-INTP
The wolf is such a broadly applicable spirit animal though.