Can you tell me if they are still locking them anymore gates gates? I bought the pass and never got gate combo’s. I drove out to Bullfrog gate and didn’t see a lock. Have they stopped locking them?
Blame the jerks that Break trails and toss mountains of trash that cover Sycamore Creek in Bud Lite and Modelo can every weekend. That shoot up hundred year old cacti. I knew this was coming years ago. That area has been so abused and neglected by the public, honestly i am glad to see they fees and I hope they enforce it.
Side by sides do much more road damage than anything else and there is no money to repair those roads. When you see the surface like gravel all thrown to the side and the road steeply banked that is from side by sides as well as when you see large rocks dug out of the roads and just sitting on top. Their suspension is so active that their wheels leave the ground and dig when they come down and the speed these motorhead idiots drive is another factor which they can do because of those same suspensions that smooth out the bumps. They are the most destructive thing on the landscape and ruin it for other people who just want to explore in a vehicle or actually walk on their own two feet. I would like to see them banned altogether except for small, designated areas they are free to destroy the land. I hope the Apache-Sitgreaves forest follows suit and starts charging based on horsepower of these damned things. They are turning hiking trails into washed out roads because these types of people have to drive everywhere and not just designated roads. To hell with them. All you people complaining are the same ones who complain about the crappy trails and you have no idea what maintenance costs. We either all pay more taxes or its a user fee. I am much happier with a user fee so the rest of us don't have to pay to subsidize your hobby.
@cdlund2840 yeah they will pay for a study saying your boots are too harsh on the trails so they can charge you too. Your the frog in the " very warm water"
Stop trashing the place and maybe they won’t a have to implement a fee. I’ve been wheeling in that area for over 45 years and have seen a huge change in trash and destruction……especially at lower Sycamore. I work the yearly clean-ups and get tired of hauling other people garbage out.
I hope the USFS commits and accomplishes those services promised for the permit fees. In my experience throughout several western states, very rarely does the USFS follow through with such improvements, at least not to the full extent of what they promise the access fees are for.
@@Trail89Adventuresdo t hold your breath. It took over a decade for them to reopen the area next to Bartlett. The recent fire was just the excuse they needed to close Wildcat for who-knows-how-long. SMH
Fun fact. All the fees, fines any income generated goes in to the general federal fund. Every year the National Forest Service has to go to Congree and fight for their allocation for the year. None of these new fees will go directly to these areas. In reality they could get the same money allocation as the previous years and Congress just takes those fees and send them overseas.
Permits and ever increasing rules. Doesn't matter what the gov says about why it's suddenly needed. Rules and fees are like heroin for government. And it's a cancer at the same time. Once they find a new source, that's it. It won't stop in one place. More rules mean more violations means more fines = more gov. And gov grows to hire more people to come up with more rules and revenue sources. I'm an old guy. Been through this elsewhere. It's always the same.
@@davidanderson8469 We had it good but I want it good for my kids after I'm gone too. But you can't stop progress as they say. And to gov.,.... growing bureaucracy and racking in new sources of money,... is progress. 🙄
@@DesertFernweh I think you've got it backwards in 2025. These days, gov. makes rules and money off those who do act like adults while turning a blind eye to those who don't. Or even worse, pampering them. Cheers.
I buy an OHV tag that should cover it paying for permits after permits is to expensive . And that's what they ultimately want people to not be out there . let's rack a bunch of fees up and make it to pricy for people to recreate .
@@davidmeeker7481 OHV gives the right to enter BLM lands And all state and gov't lands in Oregon A OHV tag is ALL you need to enter it pays for toilets everything . And It's supposed to be the same here in Arizona they just don't people out there . Don't call me an idiot . Arizona is just changing the rules .
That is why we hire public servants. They are payed to keep our parks clean bot give out tickets to violate our constitutional right to Liverty.. Liberty a Constitutional right as defined by Blacks Law dictionary as used by the framers of our Great U.S. Constitution : Exemption from extraneous control. The power of will in its moral freedom, to follow the dictates of its unrestricted choice, and to direct the external acts of the individual without restraint , coercion, or control from other persons. Civil Liberty is the greatest amount of absolute liberty which can, in the nature of things, be equally possessed by EVERY citizen in a state. In layman's terms you cannot tell us how to think. FISA vs Unconstitutional Official Acts Unconstitutional Official Acts16 Am Jur 2d, Sec 177 late 2d, Sec 256: The general misconception is that any statute passed by legislators bearing the appearance of law constitutes the law of the land. The U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and any statute, to be valid, must be In agreement.. It is impossible for both the Constitution and a law violating it to be valid; one must prevail.
This is because of people who don’t take care of our deserts and leave the trash and bad behavior out there. If anyone mad about this then get mad a the trashy people that do not care they caused this. I’m willing to pay it to maintain the Desrt areas and hopefully it will keep the riff Raff people out.
Those people willing to litter and trash our beautiful lands won't obey a permit sign. Last time I checked, murder was illegal, yet people still do it.
The people trashing the public lands are the same ones doing it everywhere. They are not the outdoor rec people. They are homeless drug addicts that are now so tolerated they are spreading out from the cities. Taxpaying people are just having to pay even more to pay for the people that don't pay.
@@Trail89Adventures They provide atv tours. The area is swamped with atv, Jeep and Hummer tours. Supposedly those companies pay dues. I havent seen any rangers in the area checking though. Its just far enough out of town that you can get away with anything.
Those tour companies are suppose to pay a fee to use public land for a business. I frequent the area a lot and never seen a ranger. I'm sure those companies have been getting away with not paying. They are the ones that use that area the most.
@@guy7670 N Korea would be the Opposite of that. Also the Weather there sucks. If you want someone to blame, blame the people that are continually Trashing Sycamore Creek and the Rolls.
@@DesertFernweh Right. So extremes are not useful now? N Korea is as irrelevant as Haiti so why did you bring up Haiti? Because you think Government knows best - as do all Collectivists.
The local 4wheel drive clubs do more than FS has ever done for free. Copperstate4wheelers has adopted Bulldog Canyon and do a couple cleanups a year which barley makes a dent. TRAL has also done an amazing job all over Arizona cleaning and maintaining trails. I just went on a run with both organizations to Tr42 and laid some seed down. We are getting scammed by paying taxes and a fee for a permit. Please contact your local FS and state rep.
should have never gave into the ohv cool aid way back when they sild it as u just pay $15 for an ohv sticker to ride to all the sudden ur never having offroad vehicle that never had a title now has to have a title and registration thru dmv which still to this day I've tried for 3 years and countless trips to dmv's to get my '89 suzuki rm250 registered and all that and have been sent all across the valley dmv's to get it properly done and yet i have yet to be successful at it and rge employees say they dont get how im supposed to get it done properly which is why they would send to another dmv but those employees would do the same and i got nowhere still to this day they wont tell me how i cqn go about it bessides tellingvme to go pay a 3rd party dmv place to do it which I've been quoted $650-$850 just to get it done, huh what happened to just buy the sticker has turned into costing almost a $1k just to go ride older bikes should be grandfathered in because no off road bike ever came with a title back in the 80's and 90's they came with mso's or mco's which i have but dmv said theyre worthless in trying to title the bikes.. and now you can see ones frustrastion with why i think how i do about the ohv bullcrap
I've never once seen a ranger or any enforcement at Bulldog or Sycamore- not once! This will change nothing except now the gates will be open! We already pay taxes to use OUR public land.
The enthusiasm that some folks have to rim the government is beyond my comprehension. The money spent establishing the designated areas and building the administrative model far eclipses what they will recover in fees for decades. Nevermind that these areas didn't just spring into existence out of the aether when the government spoke and said "Let there be Fees!" (and there were Fees, and it was Good ^TM). These areas got by just fine for decades of our use without fees. No one wants "improvements" other than the urbanites that don't have vehicles that can't go there anyways. Improvements ruin the area for those of us that have used it for years. We don't want toilets and paved parking and sidewalks and trash dumpsters and kiosks. Fuck off with that shit.
This is crap ,, these fees are way too high stack this on top of the other required permits,registrations, OHV tags , insurance Forest passes and this has become a sport for the elite not a family
I don't know about you but I can probably close my eyes and point at a map of this area and it'll land on somewhere that is still free to explore. And $80 (one tank of gas in a full size rig) to access 5 locations every day if you want, for a full year is not bad IMO.
And you know what happens if you get caught by the forest service? you get $100 fine. Guess what they do with the fine money? It goes into a federal domestic violence fund. It does not go directly back into trail maintenance, and all the other things you were told the money from fines would cover. Look it up, true fact. Just another “fee for enforcement” penalty for off highway vehicle users. Keep an eye on this and see if any improvements to the trailhead trash pick up or existing trail system happens. I’ll bet you see none of that in all the fee goes to enforcement and not back into the trails.
My tax dollars should already pay for this. If they need money let them get it from the mining companies that lease land charge them royalties on the minerals they extract.
@@cak463 there are quite a few mines within Tonto National Forest. I wonder how that works. Do they lease that land or sell the land to the mining companies ?
@cak463 and we are already paying taxes for these services. If this wasn't the case the USFS wouldn't exist and this is evidenced by the fact the USFS has been around since 1905, and permit fees haven't always been a thing. So, if our tax dollars aren't already funding the agency and its work how then does the agency even exist when we've not been paying use fees? Remember, USFS is a component agency within the US Dept of Agriculture. This is nothing more than a revenue enhancement scheme, and none of the funds generated by the permit fees are going to be used for the stated purposes. DOA has other programs that need to be funded and there is no guarantee that the permit fees won't be redirected to other projects. Yes, I'm cynical.
@Trail89Adventures mining claims are annually assessed fees. The total depends on the size and type of claim (lode or placer). There are "patent claims" out there, as well. Those are deeded, private land that was likely originated with the Homestead Act. There aren't many, if any, new patent claims being issued. There are ways to not pay the annual claim fee. It requires work to improve the claim or its access for public use. Remember, a mining claim is still public land. You can do the normal stuff on it, except take locatable/marketable minerals. When a large firm comes in and has a disturbance permit, they may be required to limit/prevent public access for safety reasons. However, they're also supposed to ensure a means to go around the claim area if a right of way was established prior to the permit. Think of the mine along the creek on the back way to Crown King. That is a patent claim, and no right of way was ever filed for the route. The recent owners wanted to pass the trail traffic around their operations. However, so many folks got butthurt about something they knew nothing of. They just assumed the land status and it was their right. It is private property and is the owner's right.
Remember when the OHV stickers came out that’s what that was supposed to pay for maintenance all the amenities. This is bullshit. They just keep coming up with taxes charges can’t afford to live anymore freely.
They need to clean the tonto up and reduce fire fuels. I would’ve never imagined the desert portion of the tonto would be almost constantly on fire, and it’s devastating. At this rate we won’t have the desert very soon. Once a saguaro dies in a fire it will not come back in our lifetime
@@JTube571 there is a grass out there called red brome and it is an invasive species from Europe that COLONIZES acres and acres if left unchecked. The desert is not supposed to be burn, doesn’t matter if someone lights it or lightning starts it. It’s not supposed to get far. It is an extremely unnatural fuel load of grass that carries the fires to places they should almost never ever reach. It’s their responsibility to take care of the land by removing those unnatural fuel loads, and they don’t.
Thanks for sharing the info! We were just out at Trail #532 and Telegraph trail on Christmas day, and noticed the new signs. The gates were unlocked already and we had the current pass, so it was a little confusing. While the price for passes has gone up a lot, I understand the need for maintenance. I'm from WA and they have several passes, so as a hiker and mountain biker I had to have 3-4 paid passes each year. I just hope it doesn't become like that here in AZ
Should have a 5.00 for one day.All fees and fines collected should be 100% used for maintenance ,clean up enforcement.Also anybody using this area should pay the same amount.Hunters,hikers and bicycles.100% back into the area.Period.
@@Trail89Adventures and in two years the USFS will discover that $80 for an annual pass isn't going to cover the cost and then they will raise the permit fee.
Thank you for taking the time to put this together. Great information. Just an Idea, maybe they could just add a fee for the America Beautiful pass as we use for the Grand Canyon and other places. Either way, like you, I'm going to pay the 80.00 bucks, I stopped going to the 4 places because of problems with the gate codes. I like this new way better. Keep it simple right.
What a bummer! We own a house just south of the Bulldog Canyon entrance. But, if they keep the gates open all the time, I wonder if that is going to increase the traffic?!?!
I don't mind paying the fees, if they go to maintenance and services. What I hate are the timed entry reservation systems that are popping up in various places.
Someone needs to do a serious audit of the U.S. Forest Service. All these new 'fee's' used to be covered by your tax dollars. I'm guessing the waste in the Forest Service is right up there with the Postal service.
America The Beautiful passes should cover all of these areas. Annual passes plus lifetime passes for seniors and military veterans. National forests and parks.
@@technom3598 if you want to ride and explore State Trust land you need a permit. If you posses the OHV tag, you are allowed to ride and explore State Trust lands without a permit.
Don’t complain - here in Utah we have the whole “envision utah” thing rolling out where your every move will only be permitted if they allow for it. 15-minute cities courtesy of the larger global plan to manage: “people and planet”… When I lived in AZ I spent a few days picking up trash on the salt river and hauling it by hand back to goldfield… ASU “students” 🤮🤮🤮🤮
A similar system has been in place in California for years. Ours is related to parking and not travel itself. $5.00 per day, and the permits (a scratch the date off card) are available lots of places. I always keep a few in my glovebox. I wasn’t happy with it either. We pay taxes out the wazoo and the government always has its hand out for more. In addition, they seem to regard everything as their property, to which they are granting you the privilege of passage. The money has been used to clean up trash, make improvements to both 4WD and hiking trails, put in kiosks and toilets, which is great. A few places got gates and are closed to motorized traffic. One place that was gated is the mountain trail system in back of my home. Bummer. It’s open to foot, bike, and horse traffic, But nothing motorized, including E bikes. Too bad, because it’s too extensive for anything other than motorized travel, to really get back there. Some of that decision closure is probably related to misuse.
The FS should be charging the OHV rental places hefty permit fees like the BLM charges river outfitters and start holding them accountable for the damage their customers cause.
@@Mudog715 Good question. You can see a rental group at the very end of the video. Seems like the would have a special use permit or contract with the Forest Service.
During Bush Jr's administration, this was proven locally (Coconino and Yavapai county) to be unconstitutional. If they have an improved area, say with paved parking and rest rooms, then they can charge a fee, but the Rangers in our area were simply ticketing people for not having a Red Rock Pass on a Forest Service Road. One guy in particular refused to pay and took them to court. They cannot legally charge you for use of public lands unless it's an improved area!
Back in Sept. I went to the website and bought my 6 month permit but when I went to print it out to get the gate codes for Bulldog Canyon, the page wouldn't load!!!!! So I went to the Mesa station on Ingram St. and it was closed. So I went to the one on McDowell in Phx to get my gate codes. Where the sign at mesa office said to go. And they couldn't give me the codes. It was only 6 bucks, but the thing is, I'm still locked out for 3 of the 6 months until the gates stay open after Jan. 1st. I'm pissed off because they make rules you can't follow. We'll see how this new crap goes, but I told them my club used to go do clean up runs. Even drag out burned up cars so a flatbed could get to them. Not doing that anymore if they are collecting fees to do so. Other clubs would do clean up runs also. UGH!!!!!! I feel it's one step closer to some BS coming our way.
I wonder if its still going to be just a piece of paper you print like Bulldog, or if its going to be a mirror hanger like some of the other permits. Hard to display those hanging ones on ATVs and SXSs. Seems like this is going to take a while to get a process down.
@@cw50must it also states that there will not be any locked gates so sounds like the padlock days at Bulldog are over. (Which were rarely locked anyway)
@@Trail89Adventures well that's an improvement because I know before they said you had to print them that electronic versions were no good. I remember years ago I found one of the Bulldog locks actually cut. I called the Tonto office the next day to let them know and the lady on the phone could not have cared any less.
In Michigan, we have to pay to enter ANY Mich. state park. Many of these state parks are inside a national forest. We pay this fee when we renew our license plates. They print a "P" on the annual tab if you paid the fee. It is $14 dollars if purchased when you renew your plate, or $20 if you buy a pass at the park. Does AZ charge an annual or daily fee for a state parks?
@@bryandixon4090 According to the forest service document FAQ, any motorized use, the operator would need a permit. Different from AZ State Trust Land where the hunting license essentially is the State Trust Land permit. Hope this clarifies
@@jacksumner4369 From what I can find, it says that any permit purchased starting 10/17/24 will expire on 10/31/24. Not sure when you purchased yours. They were good for 6 months and I read somewhere previously the $6 was just a processing fee so….I think you will be out a couple bucks possibly.
@ you might want to call them but I think they are going to tell you the Bulldog permit was actually free with a $6 processing fee. Not sure it’s worth the time.
This is absolutely ridiculous. We already pay for this, and it's just adding another fee to something. We all know that money is not gonna go to what they say it's going to go to. I'm a native to AZ, and the fees just keep getting worse. Its not even worth it to ride in AZ anymore. I pick up all my trash, if not more. Instead of punishing the good people, how bout you use that money to get rangers out here and fine those people who throw trash in the dessert.
Just had one out there a couple weeks ago with KODC and I know natural restorations had one a couple months ago. Even with that there is still plenty more needed in that area, its pretty bad.
@@BuckinLifeoffroad Sycamore is really bad. That fee area is pending once all the requirements of the National Environmental Policy Act have been completed. I am not sure what that is but am going to try to research it.
Sadly, even picking up every piece of refuse in LS wouldn't fix the problem. It's the trash behind the steering wheel / handlebars that is the real issue
@@BuckinLifeoffroadnot as long as rental companies make it easy access to anyone with a credit card. They come and destroy our lands and then fly back to whatever shithole state they came from. The FS should be charging the OHV rental places hefty fees like the BLM charges river outfitters.
The sign says "Motorized Vehicles". Even a riding lawnmower might need a permit. However, Since 01/2009, SUVs, cars, pickup trucks and "other recreational vehicles" aren't required to have an OHV sticker. But you'll probably still have to pay the permit fee to enter these four areas.
@@phillivingston8237 It is any motorized vehicle. In the video description I added a link to the Tonto National Forest FAQ document if you want to check it out for specifics.
Very informative video. I was out there a couple of weeks ago and they are checking permits. People need to stop littering. C’mon, have some respect for your play space! I’m losing confidence in human kind.
Thanks for the heads up! For people worried about muh freedom, real freedom would mean that the government sells most/all of this land to private individuals and corporations. This would mean the off-roading community would have way less access to the trails that we currently have. We would start to see privately owned off-road parks like they have back east.
Only a small portion of that money if any will go to improvements. Interesting the forest service used to have enough money until the politicians found it. I am sure the OHV sticker and these fees will increase too now with the foot in the door.
I grew up in that area back in the 60's through early 80's. Several years ago I went back for a ride to 4-Peaks. My first impression was how trashed the area was with garbage scattered every where, including around all those ATV staging areas. There were also areas where the hill sides glittered from all the busted glass bottles from target shooting. While I do not agree with fee areas, people have brought this on to themselves. It is only going to get worse as the Valley area continues to turn into a giant cesspool.
We pay local , state and federal taxes everyday that are supposed to cover these services so why would i chose to pay to ride this area when i can ride almost everywhere else.............
That's why they call it a Permit, If you pay the Fee fees,then you'll be Permitted to use the Area, it's just another Control factor and hidden taxes, once it takes place it never goes away, They just increase the fees anytime they want to... usually every few years....
Bulldog Canyon has been permitted for years, but the rest is new. I've ridden a lot of these areas but not all of them. Once states figure out they can get away with charging fees for something, you know they'll just keep it coming. $80 for an annual permit is absolute BS. I would never pay it. I was okay with Bulldog Canyon being $10 per six months but then that got raised and I stopped. Now I've left Arizona, and honestly, none of these areas are good enough to warrant permits. There are far better places to ride in Arizona than there.
As long as the fees are used to put dumpsters at the beginning of the roads… so people can pick up trash and clean up the desert. All abandoned RVs will be picked up …. It’s all good.
Visit the Tonto Forest. Ask to see the annual budget for the recreation program. Have them identify the budget line items for the ohv areas. Hold them accountable for their decisions and the spending of tax payer dollars. I did this in El Centro with BLM and they could not demonstrate where the money was going and because of that, they lost a million bucks per year being donated from non-profits to the Imperial Sand Dunes Recreation Area (Glamis). Don’t let them misuse the tax payers money. Contact Elon and Vivik if you have too.
Tonto Pass, Maricopa County Parks Pass, OHV permits X3, hunting permit, State Trust Land Permit, AND THERE IS NO ENFORCEMENT. I’m sick of being the only one buying these dumbass passes.
Funny thing they started charging adventure fees in California years ago. They waste money on signs everywhere telling you that you need to pay your recreation taxation. Even paved over rain ruts and pot holes destroyed by next year. The taggers are now able to access to Mark the boulders like dogs with graffiti 😮.
This is flat ridiculous. I traveled those roads as a kid without an a TV and now you gotta pay, you gotta pay taxes to register the ATV. You gotta pay taxes to the government to maintain that land, and now you gotta pay taxes to use it where the hell is America going? owen nothing be happy.
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I’m OK with this and support it as long as they do the improvements. Lots of locations require a Tonto Pass and years ago a fee was required to hike Peralta Trail.
This will only pay for law enforcement to patrol the area. Its a hidden agenda. This is what happend to Glamis CA. The Imperial County Sherrifs drive $250,000 Sandcars around now that have 900hp.
Don’t expect much change. Also fees not fairly applied and only apply to motorized travel, not equestrian, hikers or MTB. They already have more open land than we do why not charge EVERYONE? At least feign fairness.
Thanks for the forecast! I have a quick question: My OKX wallet holds some USDT, and I have the seed phrase. (alarm fetch churn bridge exercise tape speak race clerk couch crater letter). How can I transfer them to Binance?
@everyone Permit site went live on 1/1/25. Here is the link www.recreation.gov/activitypass/AP22844/order
Can you tell me if they are still locking them anymore gates gates? I bought the pass and never got gate combo’s. I drove out to Bullfrog gate and didn’t see a lock. Have they stopped locking them?
@ there are no more locks on the gates with the new permit program.
We already pay fees to use our public lands it’s called taxes.
So walk it. Sxs tear shit up. It requires maintenance
I love these fees.
Keeps the poors away
Blame the jerks that Break trails and toss mountains of trash that cover Sycamore Creek in Bud Lite and Modelo can every weekend. That shoot up hundred year old cacti. I knew this was coming years ago. That area has been so abused and neglected by the public, honestly i am glad to see they fees and I hope they enforce it.
Don't worry many NFS/ NPS areas do charge to park and hike on trails.
Paying to use my own public lands sucks.
Side by sides do much more road damage than anything else and there is no money to repair those roads. When you see the surface like gravel all thrown to the side and the road steeply banked that is from side by sides as well as when you see large rocks dug out of the roads and just sitting on top. Their suspension is so active that their wheels leave the ground and dig when they come down and the speed these motorhead idiots drive is another factor which they can do because of those same suspensions that smooth out the bumps.
They are the most destructive thing on the landscape and ruin it for other people who just want to explore in a vehicle or actually walk on their own two feet. I would like to see them banned altogether except for small, designated areas they are free to destroy the land.
I hope the Apache-Sitgreaves forest follows suit and starts charging based on horsepower of these damned things.
They are turning hiking trails into washed out roads because these types of people have to drive everywhere and not just designated roads. To hell with them.
All you people complaining are the same ones who complain about the crappy trails and you have no idea what maintenance costs. We either all pay more taxes or its a user fee. I am much happier with a user fee so the rest of us don't have to pay to subsidize your hobby.
@@cdlund2840 Amen, I agree
@cdlund2840 yeah they will pay for a study saying your boots are too harsh on the trails so they can charge you too.
Your the frog in the " very warm water"
@@jacktrout5807 everything is a slippery slope when you want it to be
Stop trashing the place and maybe they won’t a have to implement a fee. I’ve been wheeling in that area for over 45 years and have seen a huge change in trash and destruction……especially at lower Sycamore. I work the yearly clean-ups and get tired of hauling other people garbage out.
I hope the USFS commits and accomplishes those services promised for the permit fees. In my experience throughout several western states, very rarely does the USFS follow through with such improvements, at least not to the full extent of what they promise the access fees are for.
@@MavHntr That is an absolutely fair statement. I hope they do as well and do so quickly.
@@Trail89Adventuresdo t hold your breath. It took over a decade for them to reopen the area next to Bartlett. The recent fire was just the excuse they needed to close Wildcat for who-knows-how-long. SMH
Doubt it.
Fun fact. All the fees, fines any income generated goes in to the general federal fund. Every year the National Forest Service has to go to Congree and fight for their allocation for the year. None of these new fees will go directly to these areas. In reality they could get the same money allocation as the previous years and Congress just takes those fees and send them overseas.
Permits and ever increasing rules. Doesn't matter what the gov says about why it's suddenly needed. Rules and fees are like heroin for government. And it's a cancer at the same time. Once they find a new source, that's it. It won't stop in one place. More rules mean more violations means more fines = more gov. And gov grows to hire more people to come up with more rules and revenue sources. I'm an old guy. Been through this elsewhere. It's always the same.
75 here. We've seen a lot of changes in our lives haven't we? Aging sucks but we had it good.
@@davidanderson8469 We had it good but I want it good for my kids after I'm gone too. But you can't stop progress as they say. And to gov.,.... growing bureaucracy and racking in new sources of money,... is progress. 🙄
We wouldn't need the rules if people would act like adults.
@@DesertFernweh I think you've got it backwards in 2025. These days, gov. makes rules and money off those who do act like adults while turning a blind eye to those who don't. Or even worse, pampering them. Cheers.
@@DesertFernweh TRUTH. 90% of rules and laws came from adults acting like irresponsible children.
I buy an OHV tag that should cover it paying for permits after permits is to expensive . And that's what they ultimately want people to not be out there . let's rack a bunch of fees up and make it to pricy for people to recreate .
So much this. It's a byzantine labyrinth of permits now. Fuck 'em. State OHV is enough.
This. They can’t justify outright closure so they make it expensive to use instead.
Just because you register your vehicle in AZ doesnt give you free entrance to Grand Canyon.
What an idiot. You paid to register your conveyance.
@davidmeeker7481 keep on rimming that government sphincter.
@@davidmeeker7481 OHV gives the right to enter BLM lands And all state and gov't lands in Oregon A OHV tag is ALL you need to enter it pays for toilets everything . And It's supposed to be the same here in Arizona they just don't people out there . Don't call me an idiot . Arizona is just changing the rules .
If everyone picked up after themselves we wouldn't be having to spend the $80...
And the people leaving the trash are the same ones that will not buy a permit.
That's just an excuse. They're goal is to milk what money they can from us, regardless of who left how many beer cans on the trail.
Not true. It’s a money grab no matter what.
That's true also , I've seen private forests locked up so many times because of it!
That is why we hire public servants. They are payed to keep our parks clean bot give out tickets to violate our constitutional right to Liverty..
Liberty a Constitutional right as defined by Blacks Law dictionary as used by the framers of our Great U.S. Constitution :
Exemption from extraneous control. The power of will in its moral freedom, to follow the dictates of its unrestricted choice, and to direct the external acts of the individual without restraint , coercion, or control from other persons.
Civil Liberty is the greatest amount of absolute liberty which can, in the nature of things, be equally possessed by EVERY citizen in a state.
In layman's terms you cannot tell us how to think.
FISA vs Unconstitutional Official Acts
Unconstitutional Official Acts16 Am Jur 2d, Sec 177 late 2d, Sec 256: The general misconception is that any statute passed by legislators bearing the appearance of law constitutes the law of the land. The U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and any statute, to be valid, must be In agreement.. It is impossible for both the Constitution and a law violating it to be valid; one must prevail.
The tanto National Forest. Need just one permit to cover everything. That would make it much easier.
Ahhhhh, more taxation! They do this up by Sedona in the Coconino also.
More fees fees fees. Taxation is theft and im sick of it
Stop trashing the place.
@@MavicGuy2112 well, I hear Hati is nice this time of year.
This is because of people who don’t take care of our deserts and leave the trash and bad behavior out there. If anyone mad about this then get mad a the trashy people that do not care they caused this. I’m willing to pay it to maintain the Desrt areas and hopefully it will keep the riff Raff people out.
Those people willing to litter and trash our beautiful lands won't obey a permit sign.
Last time I checked, murder was illegal, yet people still do it.
@@Uberragen21I do take care of the land, I carry the group trash bags so that friends don’t get lazy. But there is no way I’m ever paying those fees
@@allenlebaron8993 same here
The people trashing the public lands are the same ones doing it everywhere. They are not the outdoor rec people. They are homeless drug addicts that are now so tolerated they are spreading out from the cities. Taxpaying people are just having to pay even more to pay for the people that don't pay.
That's the point. Will the fees be spent on the land or go into the Feds. general fund?
The atv tours use this area heavily. How about just increase their fees.
THIS! The rental companies are responsible for a lot of the destruction at Wildcat. It’s time they be held accountable for pimping our OHV land out!
@@internetpointsbank I wonder how those will work? Do they have a contract or something to rent out there?
@@Trail89Adventures They provide atv tours. The area is swamped with atv, Jeep and Hummer tours. Supposedly those companies pay dues. I havent seen any rangers in the area checking though. Its just far enough out of town that you can get away with anything.
Those tour companies are suppose to pay a fee to use public land for a business. I frequent the area a lot and never seen a ranger. I'm sure those companies have been getting away with not paying. They are the ones that use that area the most.
Government is not the solution to the problem. Government IS the problem.
@@guy7670 you would prefer less/no Government. I hear Haiti is nice this time of year.
@@DesertFernweh So is N Korea. So what?
@@guy7670 N Korea would be the Opposite of that. Also the Weather there sucks.
If you want someone to blame, blame the people that are continually Trashing Sycamore Creek and the Rolls.
@@DesertFernweh Right. So extremes are not useful now? N Korea is as irrelevant as Haiti so why did you bring up Haiti? Because you think Government knows best - as do all Collectivists.
The local 4wheel drive clubs do more than FS has ever done for free. Copperstate4wheelers has adopted Bulldog Canyon and do a couple cleanups a year which barley makes a dent. TRAL has also done an amazing job all over Arizona cleaning and maintaining trails. I just went on a run with both organizations to Tr42 and laid some seed down. We are getting scammed by paying taxes and a fee for a permit. Please contact your local FS and state rep.
@@johnpalmieri thanks for volunteering your time to help clean up.
Those clubs obviously missed lower Sycamore. It looks like a city dump out there and 4Peaks road is not much better.
TRAL 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
@ Why do you think TRAL are a bunch of clowns? 🥸
@@johnpalmieri Because I know the 💩stain that runs it.
should have never gave into the ohv cool aid way back when they sild it as u just pay $15 for an ohv sticker to ride to all the sudden ur never having offroad vehicle that never had a title now has to have a title and registration thru dmv which still to this day I've tried for 3 years and countless trips to dmv's to get my '89 suzuki rm250 registered and all that and have been sent all across the valley dmv's to get it properly done and yet i have yet to be successful at it and rge employees say they dont get how im supposed to get it done properly which is why they would send to another dmv but those employees would do the same and i got nowhere still to this day they wont tell me how i cqn go about it bessides tellingvme to go pay a 3rd party dmv place to do it which I've been quoted $650-$850 just to get it done, huh what happened to just buy the sticker has turned into costing almost a $1k just to go ride older bikes should be grandfathered in because no off road bike ever came with a title back in the 80's and 90's they came with mso's or mco's which i have but dmv said theyre worthless in trying to title the bikes.. and now you can see ones frustrastion with why i think how i do about the ohv bullcrap
I've never once seen a ranger or any enforcement at Bulldog or Sycamore- not once! This will change nothing except now the gates will be open! We already pay taxes to use OUR public land.
@@AZsmoothrider It will be interesting to see how it is patrolled or enforced.
I saw a ranger once. Bet he's still buried up in the hills there...
I was out there on MLK day this year. There were 2 rangers checking for permits where Phon D Sutton crosses the wash that leads to the Salt River.
@@brettk7118 The problem is they spend more time collecting fees than doing real work.
The enthusiasm that some folks have to rim the government is beyond my comprehension.
The money spent establishing the designated areas and building the administrative model far eclipses what they will recover in fees for decades. Nevermind that these areas didn't just spring into existence out of the aether when the government spoke and said "Let there be Fees!" (and there were Fees, and it was Good ^TM). These areas got by just fine for decades of our use without fees.
No one wants "improvements" other than the urbanites that don't have vehicles that can't go there anyways. Improvements ruin the area for those of us that have used it for years. We don't want toilets and paved parking and sidewalks and trash dumpsters and kiosks. Fuck off with that shit.
This is crap ,, these fees are way too high stack this on top of the other required permits,registrations, OHV tags , insurance Forest passes and this has become a sport for the elite not a family
I don't know about you but I can probably close my eyes and point at a map of this area and it'll land on somewhere that is still free to explore. And $80 (one tank of gas in a full size rig) to access 5 locations every day if you want, for a full year is not bad IMO.
And you know what happens if you get caught by the forest service? you get $100 fine. Guess what they do with the fine money? It goes into a federal domestic violence fund. It does not go directly back into trail maintenance, and all the other things you were told the money from fines would cover. Look it up, true fact. Just another “fee for enforcement” penalty for off highway vehicle users. Keep an eye on this and see if any improvements to the trailhead trash pick up or existing trail system happens. I’ll bet you see none of that in all the fee goes to enforcement and not back into the trails.
@@mcool4587 is it $100? Never knew what it would cost.
All true.
I’m down with it all except the extra patrols - gastapo in the making.
My tax dollars should already pay for this. If they need money let them get it from the mining companies that lease land charge them royalties on the minerals they extract.
@@cak463 there are quite a few mines within Tonto National Forest. I wonder how that works. Do they lease that land or sell the land to the mining companies ?
@cak463 and we are already paying taxes for these services. If this wasn't the case the USFS wouldn't exist and this is evidenced by the fact the USFS has been around since 1905, and permit fees haven't always been a thing. So, if our tax dollars aren't already funding the agency and its work how then does the agency even exist when we've not been paying use fees? Remember, USFS is a component agency within the US Dept of Agriculture. This is nothing more than a revenue enhancement scheme, and none of the funds generated by the permit fees are going to be used for the stated purposes. DOA has other programs that need to be funded and there is no guarantee that the permit fees won't be redirected to other projects. Yes, I'm cynical.
@Trail89Adventures mining claims are annually assessed fees. The total depends on the size and type of claim (lode or placer). There are "patent claims" out there, as well. Those are deeded, private land that was likely originated with the Homestead Act. There aren't many, if any, new patent claims being issued.
There are ways to not pay the annual claim fee. It requires work to improve the claim or its access for public use. Remember, a mining claim is still public land. You can do the normal stuff on it, except take locatable/marketable minerals.
When a large firm comes in and has a disturbance permit, they may be required to limit/prevent public access for safety reasons. However, they're also supposed to ensure a means to go around the claim area if a right of way was established prior to the permit.
Think of the mine along the creek on the back way to Crown King. That is a patent claim, and no right of way was ever filed for the route. The recent owners wanted to pass the trail traffic around their operations. However, so many folks got butthurt about something they knew nothing of. They just assumed the land status and it was their right. It is private property and is the owner's right.
Remember when the OHV stickers came out that’s what that was supposed to pay for maintenance all the amenities. This is bullshit. They just keep coming up with taxes charges can’t afford to live anymore freely.
They need to clean the tonto up and reduce fire fuels. I would’ve never imagined the desert portion of the tonto would be almost constantly on fire, and it’s devastating. At this rate we won’t have the desert very soon. Once a saguaro dies in a fire it will not come back in our lifetime
@@Emu1776 this past summer seemed like the fire activity was extremely high across Tonto. There is one burning as we speak!
That is because of asshole people and usually its the motorheads. Nothing to do with "cleaning up" the desert.
Well they certainly are not lightning fires. Maybe people should be a little more careful.
@@JTube571 there is a grass out there called red brome and it is an invasive species from Europe that COLONIZES acres and acres if left unchecked. The desert is not supposed to be burn, doesn’t matter if someone lights it or lightning starts it. It’s not supposed to get far. It is an extremely unnatural fuel load of grass that carries the fires to places they should almost never ever reach. It’s their responsibility to take care of the land by removing those unnatural fuel loads, and they don’t.
Some of the forests in California have been doing it for years
That's California. They're probably looking for a way to tax people for the air they breathe (carbon footprint tax).
For more information see the link in the video description to the Tonto National Forest frequently asked questions.
Thanks for sharing the info! We were just out at Trail #532 and Telegraph trail on Christmas day, and noticed the new signs. The gates were unlocked already and we had the current pass, so it was a little confusing. While the price for passes has gone up a lot, I understand the need for maintenance. I'm from WA and they have several passes, so as a hiker and mountain biker I had to have 3-4 paid passes each year. I just hope it doesn't become like that here in AZ
It just did become “like that”
multiple passes to get to , park in , drive on and use different areas
Should have a 5.00 for one day.All fees and fines collected should be 100% used for maintenance ,clean up enforcement.Also anybody using this area should pay the same amount.Hunters,hikers and bicycles.100% back into the area.Period.
Thnaks for the info, hopefully the improvements actually happen
I hope they do! The list of improvements they wrote is long.
@@Trail89Adventures and in two years the USFS will discover that $80 for an annual pass isn't going to cover the cost and then they will raise the permit fee.
They won’t do any clean up and all BS, money grab again from your corrupt government, catch me if you can😂😂😂😂
Thank you for taking the time to put this together. Great information. Just an Idea, maybe they could just add a fee for the America Beautiful pass as we use for the Grand Canyon and other places. Either way, like you, I'm going to pay the 80.00 bucks, I stopped going to the 4 places because of problems with the gate codes. I like this new way better. Keep it simple right.
Can you use Golden Age or America beautiful pass?
What a bummer! We own a house just south of the Bulldog Canyon entrance. But, if they keep the gates open all the time, I wonder if that is going to increase the traffic?!?!
@@FreewayFlippers Will be interesting to see how this is patrolled.
It will certainly increase the amount of squatters out there. I just hope they do a bit more enforcement on that than they have been in the past.
I don't mind paying the fees, if they go to maintenance and services. What I hate are the timed entry reservation systems that are popping up in various places.
Someone needs to do a serious audit of the U.S. Forest Service. All these new 'fee's' used to be covered by your tax dollars. I'm guessing the waste in the Forest Service is right up there with the Postal service.
Well there is certainly a lot of waste on the ground out in these areas, that's for sure.
History shows when they start down this road, there will be subdevelopments or mines or “green” energy in 15-20 years.
Enjoy it while you can.
America The Beautiful passes should cover all of these areas. Annual passes plus lifetime passes for seniors and military veterans. National forests and parks.
..And we STILL need the ~$35.00/yr. OHV tags !
$25.00 a year
You think that covers anything?
@@technom3598 if you want to ride and explore State Trust land you need a permit. If you posses the OHV tag, you are allowed to ride and explore State Trust lands without a permit.
That is a state registration fee. This is a federal issue.
Don’t complain - here in Utah we have the whole “envision utah” thing rolling out where your every move will only be permitted if they allow for it.
15-minute cities courtesy of the larger global plan to manage: “people and planet”…
When I lived in AZ I spent a few days picking up trash on the salt river and hauling it by hand back to goldfield… ASU “students” 🤮🤮🤮🤮
A similar system has been in place in California for years. Ours is related to parking and not travel itself. $5.00 per day, and the permits (a scratch the date off card) are available lots of places. I always keep a few in my glovebox.
I wasn’t happy with it either. We pay taxes out the wazoo and the government always has its hand out for more. In addition, they seem to regard everything as their property, to which they are granting you the privilege of passage.
The money has been used to clean up trash, make improvements to both 4WD and hiking trails, put in kiosks and toilets, which is great. A few places got gates and are closed to motorized traffic. One place that was gated is the mountain trail system in back of my home. Bummer. It’s open to foot, bike, and horse traffic, But nothing motorized, including E bikes. Too bad, because it’s too extensive for anything other than motorized travel, to really get back there. Some of that decision closure is probably related to misuse.
Well, improvements and land maintenance cost money and as long as this is done, the permit fees could be worth it. Right?
The FS should be charging the OHV rental places hefty permit fees like the BLM charges river outfitters and start holding them accountable for the damage their customers cause.
@@Mudog715 Good question. You can see a rental group at the very end of the video. Seems like the would have a special use permit or contract with the Forest Service.
Just direct deposit your entire paycheck to the government. They own you.
During Bush Jr's administration, this was proven locally (Coconino and Yavapai county) to be unconstitutional. If they have an improved area, say with paved parking and rest rooms, then they can charge a fee, but the Rangers in our area were simply ticketing people for not having a Red Rock Pass on a Forest Service Road. One guy in particular refused to pay and took them to court. They cannot legally charge you for use of public lands unless it's an improved area!
@@sparkyatlarge Interesting situation. I hadn’t heard about that.
I tried paying for it today and the link did not work.
Back in Sept. I went to the website and bought my 6 month permit but when I went to print it out to get the gate codes for Bulldog Canyon, the page wouldn't load!!!!! So I went to the Mesa station on Ingram St. and it was closed. So I went to the one on McDowell in Phx to get my gate codes. Where the sign at mesa office said to go. And they couldn't give me the codes. It was only 6 bucks, but the thing is, I'm still locked out for 3 of the 6 months until the gates stay open after Jan. 1st. I'm pissed off because they make rules you can't follow. We'll see how this new crap goes, but I told them my club used to go do clean up runs. Even drag out burned up cars so a flatbed could get to them. Not doing that anymore if they are collecting fees to do so. Other clubs would do clean up runs also. UGH!!!!!! I feel it's one step closer to some BS coming our way.
@@garrykennedy5484 definitely frustrating when you are trying to follow the process and get the run around. Thanks for helping clean up the trails.
I wonder if its still going to be just a piece of paper you print like Bulldog, or if its going to be a mirror hanger like some of the other permits. Hard to display those hanging ones on ATVs and SXSs. Seems like this is going to take a while to get a process down.
@@cw50must once you purchase the permit on recreation.gov you will get two emails. One is a receipt and the other will be the actual permit.
@@cw50must it also states that there will not be any locked gates so sounds like the padlock days at Bulldog are over. (Which were rarely locked anyway)
@@cw50must The permit can also be digitally saved on a mobile device.
@@Trail89Adventures well that's an improvement because I know before they said you had to print them that electronic versions were no good. I remember years ago I found one of the Bulldog locks actually cut. I called the Tonto office the next day to let them know and the lady on the phone could not have cared any less.
In Michigan, we have to pay to enter ANY Mich. state park. Many of these state parks are inside a national forest. We pay this fee when we renew our license plates. They print a "P" on the annual tab if you paid the fee. It is $14 dollars if purchased when you renew your plate, or $20 if you buy a pass at the park.
Does AZ charge an annual or daily fee for a state parks?
AZ State parks range from $2 - $30 for entry. Other fees for camping, additional vehicle or renting a cabin are above that. Fee varies by the park.
The AZ annual state park pass is $200.
So if you have a license for hunting, do you still have to pay the fee or does the hunting license cover your access?
Good point. If you're out there for a hunt you shouldn't have to also pay a recreation fee.
@@bryandixon4090 According to the forest service document FAQ, any motorized use, the operator would need a permit. Different from AZ State Trust Land where the hunting license essentially is the State Trust Land permit. Hope this clarifies
@@Trail89AdventuresYour hunting license does not grant you access to trust land unless you are actively pursuing game.
Same with firewood cutting or mining permits/claims. Are the ranchers paying to check on the herds.
Thanks for the update!!
Who's going to enforce the permit fee with no one there and just a wide open gate?
I just love the idea of paying for a permit to utilize an area that I have already paid for.
Show us how much you have already paid. You don’t even know. It’s such a minuscule amount to any one person it’s like nothing.
When will the permits be available, right now they are not
@@tedbush1870 available now on recreation.gov.
www.recreation.gov/activitypass/AP22844/order
What if my old pass has not expired yet??
@@jacksumner4369 From what I can find, it says that any permit purchased starting 10/17/24 will expire on 10/31/24. Not sure when you purchased yours. They were good for 6 months and I read somewhere previously the $6 was just a processing fee so….I think you will be out a couple bucks possibly.
@@Trail89AdventuresI got it on August 29,2024 and it says it’s good till March first.
@ you might want to call them but I think they are going to tell you the Bulldog permit was actually free with a $6 processing fee. Not sure it’s worth the time.
@ thank you
What does this mean for the sxs rental
Companies running out there ?
They are the problem.
This is absolutely ridiculous. We already pay for this, and it's just adding another fee to something. We all know that money is not gonna go to what they say it's going to go to. I'm a native to AZ, and the fees just keep getting worse. Its not even worth it to ride in AZ anymore. I pick up all my trash, if not more. Instead of punishing the good people, how bout you use that money to get rangers out here and fine those people who throw trash in the dessert.
Lower Sycamore needs trash clean up the most. Well worth it in my opinion
Just had one out there a couple weeks ago with KODC and I know natural restorations had one a couple months ago. Even with that there is still plenty more needed in that area, its pretty bad.
@@BuckinLifeoffroad Sycamore is really bad. That fee area is pending once all the requirements of the National Environmental Policy Act have been completed. I am not sure what that is but am going to try to research it.
Sadly, even picking up every piece of refuse in LS wouldn't fix the problem. It's the trash behind the steering wheel / handlebars that is the real issue
@DesertFabMikey I completely agree. Maybe having to pay will keep some of the Riff Raff out
@@BuckinLifeoffroadnot as long as rental companies make it easy access to anyone with a credit card. They come and destroy our lands and then fly back to whatever shithole state they came from. The FS should be charging the OHV rental places hefty fees like the BLM charges river outfitters.
Can we please protest this? What say did the people who pay our taxes and employ the USFS have in this matter??
I am under the impression that my Jeep Liberty 4WDHC will be exempt from these fees. Am I correct?
@@phillivingston8237 no, that isn’t correct but curious why you have that impression.
@@Trail89Adventures Because my jeep liberty is an SUV. not an OHV.
@@phillivingston8237 Lol. I actually agree with you.
The sign says "Motorized Vehicles". Even a riding lawnmower might need a permit. However, Since 01/2009, SUVs, cars, pickup trucks and "other recreational vehicles" aren't required to have an OHV sticker. But you'll probably still have to pay the permit fee to enter these four areas.
@@phillivingston8237 It is any motorized vehicle. In the video description I added a link to the Tonto National Forest FAQ document if you want to check it out for specifics.
Stupid people ruin things for everyone
Very informative video. I was out there a couple of weeks ago and they are checking permits. People need to stop littering. C’mon, have some respect for your play space! I’m losing confidence in human kind.
@@Machoduck where were they checking permits? Bulldog Canyon?
Double and Triple Taxation at its finest. When are we going to end this???
Thanks for the heads up!
For people worried about muh freedom, real freedom would mean that the government sells most/all of this land to private individuals and corporations. This would mean the off-roading community would have way less access to the trails that we currently have. We would start to see privately owned off-road parks like they have back east.
If the fees yield better road maintenance I'll be amazed.
What about Golden Age lifetime passes?
@@joyhampton6886 this is a separate permit fee area so that would not work in OHV permit area.
Public property no trespassing
I wish I was close to there I would be happy to comply just to have access
LMFAO 😂
Only a small portion of that money if any will go to improvements. Interesting the forest service used to have enough money until the politicians found it. I am sure the OHV sticker and these fees will increase too now with the foot in the door.
$8.9 BILLION dollars is the USFS budget. These fees are likely funding the website to collect fees.
I thought you needed a day pass for Tonto anyways?
Well, you learn something new every day. I’ve never looked into it and I dont off road yet
Only for developed areas
I all ready have a HOV tag on my bike . I wonder if I'm ok or if I need a separate permit? Thanks
Yes, it is a different permit than the OHV sticker.
you have always needed a extra permit for Bulldog ( not sure on the others?) but it was affordable
Shouldn’t these services be covered in the taxes we pay? Meanwhile the Government keeps printing money to send elsewhere
I grew up in that area back in the 60's through early 80's. Several years ago I went back for a ride to 4-Peaks. My first impression was how trashed the area was with garbage scattered every where, including around all those ATV staging areas. There were also areas where the hill sides glittered from all the busted glass bottles from target shooting. While I do not agree with fee areas, people have brought this on to themselves. It is only going to get worse as the Valley area continues to turn into a giant cesspool.
Yep and the trash is 90% Modelo. Wonder who drinks that?
@@internetpointsbank The same ones that leave all the Food City bags, corn husks and tamale' wrappers.
We pay local , state and federal taxes everyday that are supposed to cover these services so why would i chose to pay to ride this area when i can ride almost everywhere else.............
information kiosks that tell you that you need the permission slip.
Voluntary non-compliance. Don't pay it.
That's why they call it a Permit, If you pay the Fee fees,then you'll be Permitted to use the Area, it's just another Control factor and hidden taxes, once it takes place it never goes away, They just increase the fees anytime they want to... usually every few years....
Bulldog Canyon has been permitted for years, but the rest is new. I've ridden a lot of these areas but not all of them. Once states figure out they can get away with charging fees for something, you know they'll just keep it coming. $80 for an annual permit is absolute BS. I would never pay it. I was okay with Bulldog Canyon being $10 per six months but then that got raised and I stopped. Now I've left Arizona, and honestly, none of these areas are good enough to warrant permits. There are far better places to ride in Arizona than there.
As long as the fees are used to put dumpsters at the beginning of the roads… so people can pick up trash and clean up the desert.
All abandoned RVs will be picked up …. It’s all good.
Im not paying shit lol.
I clean up after myself- I even take trash bags to clean up other people’s shit.
I refuse to pay for the actions of others.
make sure you have your spark arrestors too, ladies and gentleman
I'm not buying shit, hopefully they have some pretty fast SXS or they have no chance catching me.
Shut up and pay up, I've been paying for years at the boat ramp. Gone Fish'n 😂😂😂😂
Agreed. Every time I take a boat out I’m reminded why I don’t do it as often as I used to (before the fees and crowds).
The greatest threat to the National Forests is: The National Forest Service.
Visit the Tonto Forest. Ask to see the annual budget for the recreation program. Have them identify the budget line items for the ohv areas. Hold them accountable for their decisions and the spending of tax payer dollars. I did this in El Centro with BLM and they could not demonstrate where the money was going and because of that, they lost a million bucks per year being donated from non-profits to the Imperial Sand Dunes Recreation Area (Glamis). Don’t let them misuse the tax payers money. Contact Elon and Vivik if you have too.
Hey I got lost out there! 😂
Tonto Pass, Maricopa County Parks Pass, OHV permits X3, hunting permit, State Trust Land Permit, AND THERE IS NO ENFORCEMENT. I’m sick of being the only one buying these dumbass passes.
Funny thing they started charging adventure fees in California years ago. They waste money on signs everywhere telling you that you need to pay your recreation taxation. Even paved over rain ruts and pot holes destroyed by next year. The taggers are now able to access to Mark the boulders like dogs with graffiti 😮.
Thanks for sharing the info. If I go I will have my permit ahead of time 😃.
Any Geocache out in those areas?
@@Trail89Adventures I'm sure there tons out there, I haven't been out that way yet.
HAHAHAHA I TOUGHT THATS WHAT OFF ROAD TAGS WERE FOR
This is flat ridiculous. I traveled those roads as a kid without an a TV and now you gotta pay, you gotta pay taxes to register the ATV. You gotta pay taxes to the government to maintain that land, and now you gotta pay taxes to use it where the hell is America going? owen nothing be happy.
Off road stickers were suppose to pay for trail repair, but Game and Fish used the money to rebuild their monster truck a few years back!!
@@TomTom-gt5ff What? For real? Why would they even have one?
@@Trail89Adventures Yes for real!!
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I’m OK with this and support it as long as they do the improvements. Lots of locations require a Tonto Pass and years ago a fee was required to hike Peralta Trail.
@@athoutdoors9921 I am in agreement with you. I will pay it and want to see it improved.
This will only pay for law enforcement to patrol the area.
Its a hidden agenda.
This is what happend to Glamis CA.
The Imperial County Sherrifs drive $250,000 Sandcars around now that have 900hp.
The money goes into a black box. Just like Illinois weed tax.
Don’t expect much change.
Also fees not fairly applied and only apply to motorized travel, not equestrian, hikers or MTB. They already have more open land than we do why not charge EVERYONE? At least feign fairness.
Land of the fee is this not state trust land
Land of the free would mean the land is privately owned and not held by the government in the first place.
Ohv tag is 25 dollars already per vehicle who is getting rich off this scam
Hegelian Dialectic. Send it litterers to do their thing and later vindicate charging fees.
They better FN MAINTAIN TRAILS
I’m going to enjoy looking at the signs on my walls
You and me both.
So we'll just resort to theft? Stay classy.
Shearing the sheep !!!!
"this shit will not stand! Dude"
People won't pack out what they pack in. 😡
Thanks for the forecast! I have a quick question: My OKX wallet holds some USDT, and I have the seed phrase. (alarm fetch churn bridge exercise tape speak race clerk couch crater letter). How can I transfer them to Binance?
National forests are funded by taxes. Why pay a fee
Funny we can go landscaped and maintained city parks for free but have pay to go for a walk in the forest. Odd...