Pikmin 2 speedrunning is more dynamic with the RNG. It's not so random that there's no skill involved or combinations so bad that they're truly impossible. Pikmin 1 and 3 are the same every time and with 10-20 years of strategy, you can have 1 optimal route and not nearly as much real-time strategizing
I'm gonna have to disagree with this specifically due to your use of "speedrunning." Pikmin 2 feels like the worst to speedrun because the time one gets is dependent largely on dungeon layout. So its impossible to truly compare playthrough times because each playthrough and what needed to be done to complete them varies.
@@Chilly_M04 people speedrun rougelikes all the time, and thats the most random genre there is yet its still super competitive. Sure, you're run can be better or worse depending on layouts and spawns, but most seeds are gonna come with good and bad so pretty much everyones gonna have to deal with it. Also speed running games with random elements like this is a unique form of challenge since speed running it is more about problem solving in real time than just memorizing every layout and exactly what to do where. The level layouts are consistent enough to know what you're generally gonna have to deal with on repeat runs. My favorite example of this is spelunky speed runs, so id recommend giving that a look into.
I've never been the biggest fan of the Doomsday Apparatus, and while it doesn't take long to grind for and obtain in the grand scheme of things, I think there's a much deeper discussion than "it takes 20 minutes to get." My personal issue with it is more about how much of a pace breaker it is. The Pikmin games are amazing examples of games designed for 100% completion, and it's the single blemish to this idea in the series, requiring you to go back into a cave and grind - even if you never lose a single Purple.
The purple onion makes it significantly better by itself, as for a first 100% playthrough, you get a way to mass obtain Purple Pikmin via new and unique gameplay, but there's still issues that come from repeat playthroughs. Spending, like, 2 hours doing the side content or 10 minutes constantly entering and leaving a cave is still a pace breaker, but by that point Pikmin 4's loading times are already putting in the work lol@@dorf7219
@@volvoman5262 yes, but you have to get to the end of a pretty challenging gauntlet. Its a very missable thing too, i didnt play sage trials until after i beat most the other content. just i didnt know they had the other onions in them. i ended up just farming violet candy pop buds pikmin 2 style
One thing about Pikmin 2 I like is that it makes losing Pikmin more detrimental. In Pikmin 1, 3, and for the most part 4 All pikmin are easily replaceable. But in Pikmin 2 losing a white or purple is not an easy replacement which forces you to be careful when using them. Even with other colors in caves you gotta be careful to not lose too many so that you’ll have enough pikmin to do everything the game requires you to do. For example losing 30 reds in Pikmin 1 to a wolly wog means nothing except another trip to the onion to get more at worst. Losing 30 reds in a cave in Pikmin 2 might mean having to reset.
@@moosecannibal8224 That's not having your hand held, it's just fair game design. A boring game would be having to manually reset your game with any mistake...
I honestly think that the frequent use of powerful insta-kill hazards in pikmin 2 is excellent and future games should consider the idea. Let's take the example of fire vs electricity in pikmin 2. With fire, you can just hold B and it's irrelevant. It's just a minor inconvenience, and you only really want to bring like 5 reds to clear out a couple geysers due to their immunity to the hazard being irrelevant. But with electricity, you can still clear out anode beetles and the electrical current wire thingy with purples, but it's incredibly risky. It makes you actually want to use yellows in order to assist you in clearing out hazard.
I agree with what you're saying, but to fixate on specifically electricity is missing the point. Out of the 2 minutes and 44 seconds which Schaffrillas spent talking about some kind of insta-kill hazard, he spent only 20 seconds talking about electricity, during which he referred to it as the "least egregious" and even sung a few of the praises you brought up about it. This doesn't strike me as someone who truly thought insta-kill electricity was the major problem with the game that needed to be fixed. Schaffrillas spent most of the insta-kill sections talking about how the other powerful insta-kill hazards like bomb rocks and boulders (as well as some enemies) have problematic implementations in Pikmin 2 due to falling out of the sky seemingly at random, and this is one of the points he made that I agree with. You can't spot them or plan around them until they're about to slap you in the face without deep understanding of the cave generation system, yet they're one-dimensional enough that they would be nothing more than nuisances if the element of surprise were taken away. Regardless of how easy they are for a fully grown adult to dodge on reaction, they don't make for fun challenges or allow meaningful decision making. They're literally just reaction tests, and ones with frustratingly steep consequences for failing at that.
To be fair, I feel the point about purples and the Doomsday Apparatus are fair ones against Pikmin 2. It's the only times in the game where need their carrying buff is required aside from needing only one, with the only other exception being the paper bag early in Awakening Wood if memory serves me right. Either way, it leads to the single thing dissuading you from having purples steamrolling so much of the game being that you need to have 100 of them to complete the game, you aren't gonna know that in your first playthrough either. I wouldn't blame anyone for unlocking Wistful Wild, seeing the treasure and thinking "how was I supposed to know I needed 100 purples?" Keep in mind we play these games a lot, so we know that the treasure exists, where violet candypop buds are to help grind their numbers and how to abuse their powers while keeping them safe, but in the perspective of someone playing for the first time, it'd probably be extremely frustrating, since you'd probably have to both grind way more and not even know where to start. I love Pikmin 2, it was my favorite in the series before 4 just barely took that title, and it's still one of my favorites of all time, but I feel stating the Doomsday Apparatus is a minor inconvenience at most is pretty disingenuous. Not to try to talk shit or anything, I agree with a ton of the points you made in 2's favor, just try to keep in mind how many times you opt out of using purples in combat the next time you play. Almost every time I did from my experience, it was because I knew I needed 100 purples.
To be fair, EVERYONE who played pikmin 2 wanted to field an army of 100 purples at least once. I'd say the flaw is the candypop buds, not the purple pikmin requirement.
I love getting my day count as low as possible in Pikmin 1, but I feel like people gas up the limited number of days. I never ran out of time even as a kid, and from what other people have told me, neither have they.
yeah, on my first ever playthrough of pikmin 1 i think i beat the game in like 20-something days? so not good in terms of experienced players, but at the time i obviously wasn't experienced. i just remember making it to the distant spring in time to see the smokey progg, and i already knew about it going in since it wasn't a blind playthrough.
If there’s anything that Pikmin 1 is good at doing, it’s appearing as a cruel and unforgiving game while actually not being one in reality. Not only is this shown in the day counter, but with the general design of how pikmin work. There are tons of accidents in Pikmin that can lead to your whole squad being wiped out, which feels absolutely terrible. However, the game always offers you a ton of pikmin so you’re very unlikely to actually run out in the long term even if your squad wipes. This way the player can experience the best of both worlds: The game feels brutal because mistakes can lead to HUGE short term losses, but since you always have more pikmin in the onion it never feels hopeless. Pikmin 2’s caves instead require you to survive extended gauntlets with a mostly non-replenishing supply of pikmin, so it doesn’t do this nearly as well.
Slander to the Schaffrilas's Pikmin 2 video is never late to the party. That video is hot explosive garb. I've never heard someone talk about something and being so confident and so unapologetically wrong at the same time
hadn't seen that video when I watched this one and my jaw dropped at the part where he inadvertently revealed he apparently didn't understand procedural generation.
I appreciate how this video actually both brings up scaffs inconsistency’s without being inconsistent itself. While I personally find Pikmin 2 the least enjoyable game in the series, I have been finding more flaws with a Scaffs video overtime (I think a lot of his worst arguments come down to not fully exploring why he doesn’t like certain elements) and it’s good to have a video that shows those flaws properly without attacking his character.
5:26 and also the floor he is showing is Snagret Hole Sublevel 2 which takes place after you exit from the bird house, which does make consistent and logical sense since you arent actually in a cave at that point since you literally fell out of a tree (and i am aware of the other above ground sublevels later in the game).
Heres my reason why pikmin 2 is the worst Its not my thing My favourite aspect is time attack and time management You cant exactly time attack a 20 hour game
I will always respect people's opinion on liking Pikmin 2 the most, even though it is my least favorite. The reason is because your favorite gameplay element is going to determine which games you like best. If your favorite aspect is the resource management and battling enemies in Pikmin, then you will like Pikmin 2 the most, because it did this the best. If your favorite aspect is carefully planning out your day in order to be as efficient as possible and finishing the game in as few days as possible, then you will like Pikmin 1 or 3 the most because those games did that better. I am a person who just loves to replay a day over and over again until I perfect my run and get everything done I wanted to. Doing this in Pikmin 2 is a serious grind for me because I have to replay the same 2-3 caves over and over again until I collected everything that I wanted to on the surface in one run. And that surface gameplay where I am madly scrambling to get everything done as efficiently as possible is the gameplay that I find most enjoyable in Pikmin. Caves actively discourage my favorite way to play Pikmin. That doesn't mean that other people can't enjoy them, and it doesn't mean that there aren't still good aspects to them, even for me. I truly do still like Pikmin 2 a lot. But this is why Pikmin 2 is my personal least favorite in the series.
I play Pikmin to veg out after a grueling day's work and have a silly little space man collect shit so I get a vicarious sense of accomplishment. So, naturally, 4 is my favorite.
11:02 Wait, wait... only the middle bullet of a Groink can actually kill Pikmin? Is there any indication of that in the game anywhere, cuz this is the first time I'm hearing of this. If this is true, then... I honestly feel like Schaffrilas kinda has a point here. There should be some actual indication that's how it works in-game, like a piece of dialogue in the Piklopedia, or the middle bullet looking more dangerous than the adjacent two.
the bullet I think is random on what it kills. I think it randomly selects a bullet to become deadly (b/c the game can swap out various status effects from objects so it swaps one of the bullets knockback status effect with the explosion status effect). It's a fair enemy still b/c it's discouraging to be within the Groinks range regardless
I mean boulders randomly kill pimin in 4 (unless there's some obscure condition for them dying), but it only makes a mechanic easier, so people probably don't pay too much mind to it. If only the middle kills, then it's kind of an aoe that stuns the pikmin, having a punishment for being too close but not as brutal as instakilling them. I guess think of it in reverse of the boulder, it could have been that the entire explosion instakills.
I would argue that Pikmin 1’s time limit is so forgiving as to be cosmetic, let alone Pikmin 3’s. Getting one part a day is both obvious and easy outside of the final part and that’s the one relevant optional part. The only way I could see it being a big deal is if you are playing for the first time, you’re very bad at the game, and you ardently refuse to reset a day no matter what. I once watched a Let’s Play of the game where two people who were not that great at the game, who had some very incorrect knowledge and assumptions about it that hindered them, and they never seemed to reset (though I don’t think they had any catastrophic mistakes). Despite all of this, they beat it on day 22. I seriously think all this time limit does is put people off from playing it. I know tons of people who never really gave it a shot because of that, and I’m one of them; despite beating Pikmin 2, I didn’t really try 1 until I saw that Lets Play.
While I generally disagreed with Schafrillas video, I feel like the point that a lot of the "surprise traps" were needlessly unfun and punishing to players, especailly on a blind playthrough, is a fair point. While I think most of the hazards are handled relatively well things like the falling bomb rocks and enemies, mitites in eggs, enemies burrowing out of rhe ground, etc often have little to no foreshadowing and very few ways to mitigate or remove them, I feel like that alone would be fine, but given how heavily they are used in end-game caves, they quickly become more annoying obstacles that dirsupts the games flow than actual threats.
Im glad SOMEONE made this video basically taking my exact thoughts on his video and putting them into actual words. While I understand not liking the game and everything it did, I do feel that some are a bit ignorant to the stuff Pikmin 2 was doing and just not really looking further into why stuff is the way it is in that game. It's kinda depressing to me that some people just cant see the thought and effort that went into most design decisions of that game...
Ah... I always forget Schafrillas was part of the "random generation means 0 design" garbage. It's such a dumb argument, and I really want to explain why it's wrong one day.
Im really impressed with how you make such high quality content weekly for seemingly no revenue, keep the good work One thing id be really interested to see you cover is Pikmin m[cencored]s like collosal caverns and true spice.
To me, the best rebuttal for the caves not having the same time systems or time limit is something I don’t see people talk about in pikmin at all. The urgency of Pikmin 1 begins and end at 30 days and 30 parts. Rationally you just do 1 part per day and you’re at least playing the game fairly and well. In Pikmin 2 the caves offer something different. Where time management skills no longer matter and now it’s about technical levels of skill. I absolutely love Pikmin 2 for being the hardest while fairest game and offering actual threats and spikes in difficulty. Where if the caves didn’t exist the game would just be a Time Trial or Time Attack version of Pikmin 1. Having a game feel more like a video game more than a puzzle is definitely what I want to see more of in Pikmin.
I think that the reason he thinks grinding the doomsday apparatus is time consuming is because he doesn't know you that you can enter sublevels with just your captains and your dismissed pikmin won't be left behind. Based on the background footage he uses, he seems to think that you need to take your pikmin with you, which will cause you to waste time due to fighting enemies.
While the timer does keep ticking in pikmin 4, it doesn't actually start the end of day sequence until you leave it, so the end result is that, if you're doing a particularly long day, then that's the only thing you're doing that day.
11:46 me when i see people complaining about how they can insta-kill an Emperor bulblax with a single lightning shock max Oatchi rush spicy spray 100 Ice pikmin freeze in Pikmin 4:
I always preferred resource management to time management, as it adds far more variety and replayability to a game, seeing most of the newer community shit on the game breaks my heart
When I first saw Schafrillas' video over Pikmin 2, I just kind of agreed with him, and accepted that these things just didn't bother me, but after this video, I'm starting to realize how biased his video actually is, and how much it gets wrong. You make incredible points in this video, and I'm glad I found it.
5:19 It DOES make sense that there's garden based sublevels inside dungeons. Have you ever realized that garden sublevels ONLY occur on first and second sublevels? It implies that you're not yet underground when you jump inside corresponding holes. Like the Snagret Hole. First sublevel you jump into the floor of a bird house and the second sublevel is a garden area. It makes sense. It's like the bird house was sitting at this garden area. By the way, Pikmin 2 is also my favorite game of all time c:
I think the guy just eanted to make a video bashing caves, filmed parts and then noticed how he still needed actual arguments, then proceeding zo contradict himself
@ No I mean he actually straight up disagrees about what he said in the Pikmin 2 video. He says so in his Pikmin 4 video and provides an example on why the he thinks his own argument is stupid with a Legend of Zelda metaphor. In a nutshell he said that just because a sequel of a game decides to be its own thing from the first game instead of improving what was already there does not mean it is bad in the slightest, that’s why Zelda has so many beloved games that are different in their own way.
Schafrillas' video is flawed, but I would say that a first time playthrough of Pikmin 2 can be rough, mainly in the late game. It really throws a lot at the player, and a newbie wouldn't be able to save most of their Pikmin without having to restart. Despite this, we still enjoy and love Pikmin 2? Why is this? A TH-camr named ExoParadigmGamer has a theory he calls "the Sega Learning Curve". To quote him, "Many of Sega's games include strange mechanics, awkward controls, or other off-putting design choices that can hamper a first-time player's enjoyment. On the other hand, repeat players will find games with lots of depth through advanced movement techniques. The Sega Learning Curve isn't an excuse for games that get better when you know what you're doing, but rather an acknowledgement that we enjoy certain games because we've played them enough to work around their flaws, and we're not wrong for liking them in spite." Yes, I love Pikmin 2 greatly. But even I remember how frustrated I was when it decided to throw a bunch of enemies and bomb rocks at me at once. But I played it so often, I can work around it and enjoy it.
I got accustomed to the game pretty quickly on my first playthrough, but I've also watched plenty of playthroughs beforehand. Another thing about the game's traps is that most of them are easily reactable and you'd only get "tricked" if you're not paying attention and play sloppily. In a lot of older games you actually had to look at the screen, which is something that streamers and younger players aren't accustomed to.
I think he just disliked caves like 2/3rd of the community which is sad since its actually really fun how the caves are designed and the replayability they have. I don't understand why so much hate but that's just how the pikmin crumbles. Btw, it seems you have beef with Pikmin 3 or something lol. Also, your editing is actually getting sick man, continue on this pace👍
Very good and measured response. One thing however: You mentioned the caves of Pikmin 4 are usually shorter thanks to time still passing while you are in them, and that it makes it hard to plan your days around. I'd like to counter that the game tells you from the jump that 1/6 of the time passes in caves, so once you know how long a day is you can use a bit of math to set aside time for the caves. Also the caves being short can be a good thing, sometimes the caves in Pikmin 2 can overstay their welcome and feel samey, while in Pikmin 4 the caves are a lot more tightly designed and unique from each other. Definitely still love the caves in Pikmin 2, I just think Pikmin 4 did them a bit better.
Really well made video, loved how you succinctly shut down the baseless criticisms. I've enjoyed schaf for years but his vid actually ruined Pikmin 2 discourse forever. I also love how you touched on cave generation, I hate how people act like it's sloppily put together and totally random, like, no, there's only a handful of generations just to keep repeat playthroughs fresh. Maybe I'm on crack or something but I swear 2 was universally enjoyed back in the day. Like, it's perfectly fine for it to not be your fave but I swear 99% of criticisms boil down to nitpicks or just literal user error. Is Pikmin 2 too hard? then spam purples and sprays. Pikmin 2 doesn't have enough time pressure? Play faster, beat your previous times, nobody took this option from you. Pikmin 2 is one of those games where the experience you have is dependent on how you play. I personally limit my purple pikmin to like, 10 max per squad and use more red pikmin for fighting, I don't even bother with berries since eggs in caves provide you more than enough sprays to have on deck, and hell I hardly even use sprays to begin with because I enjoy fighting enemies and having stakes. Lo and behold I have a complex real time strategy game jam-packed with features and nigh infinite replayability, amazing characters, + 10/10 soundtrack and visuals.
A way better system for adding time into Pikmin 2 caves would be to add time limits on every floor that's different for each floor depending on the amount of things in the floor, it would require more playtesting but it would make the game more stressful and add a level of intensity to the game Maybe when the timer runs out, instead of just instantly killing you, it starts a super dangerous mode type thing that gets more and more intense the longer you try to stay in the floor for, where rocks are falling, maybe invincible enemies start chasing you, stuff like that ....WAIT A SECOND, CHALLENGE MODE EXISTS AND IT'S AWESOME
The crux of it I think is Schaf for some reason seems to look at games as if they were designed for the blind playthrough experience only, rather than rewarding repeat playthroughs. He thinks Persona 5 is a 10/10 game which like, sure maybe on your first playthrough the story and dungeon crawling might resonate with you enough to consider it that good, but on replays once you already know everything that's gonna happen and the best way to become overpowered, especially in Royal, the gameplay, especially in combat, isn't nearly as rewarding as other SMT games, which have a much bigger focus on challenge and resource management. Which is odd considering his complaints about Pikmin 2's lack of said time management.
It’s baffling how the guy constantly contradicts himself. He can’t keep it straight if he wants challenging hazards/enemies and time limit mechanics or not. As for caves I’m one of the weirdos who really enjoyed them, and the random elements increase replayability. Plus, some of his other issues are just self inflicted problems. I’m definitely biased because Pikmin 2 is my FAVORITE game in the series. But, I’m willing to admit it has its flaws. That being said his video was just bad and only raised a few good points.
It’s not contradicting at all, he explains in the video that he likes challenging games, that are FAIR and CONSISTENT. Pikmin 1, 3, and 4 have differing difficulties that progress in a natural Manner, 2 doesn’t do that well at all. He does point out some flaws in his video in his most recent Pikmin video. But what’s really baffling is how you think his video is bad when most of his points are valid. The only thing that’s bad about the video (that he addressed) was his view on it being a “Departure” of what made Pikmin, Pikmin.
Considering the other stuff I’ve seen from him. This isn’t the first wild take he had, and it won’t be the last. The capitalism part sounded like complete projection lmao.
Also another ironic take he had was the spray stockpile he made, he complained it made the game too easy meanwhile in Pikmin 3 it is INSANELY easy to stockpile sprays as you can use a captain and a few Winged Pikmin to make a berry convoy while your other 2 captains complete the area
I actually never knew the Violet Candypop buds do respawn in Bulblax Kingdom, taught me something new there. I'll have to remember that next time I playthrough 2 again.
Pikmin 2 is not my favorite, but the things I don't like about it are never even mentioned in this video at all. I just personally am not a fan of some of the caves, and think they run a bit long and are just a bit too combat intensive for what I personally want out of a pikmin game. I think a TH-camr who critiques Pikmin 2 in a pretty good way is probably Antdude
No hate towards Schaf (because I doubt he intended to have this effect) but it really did feel like there was a massive influx of new fans who will shit on Pikmin 2 endlessly and overhype Pikmin 3. Of course there's valid criticisms for both and neither are bad games at all, but it made discourse of the games unnecessarily defensive. Peakmin 2 is my favourite of the series and while I have my own problems with the game (some jank glitches, purples being too op, time limit should've been focused on more, reds being useless, etc), I love it regardless and a good amount of Schaf's points felt like either contradictions or personal nitpicks. Love the content btw!
In his Pikmin 4 review, he saw the flaws in this mid ass review he made and realized that he was a hypocrite because he loved Majoras Mask despite it being completely different than Ocorainia of Time...
What I like about Pikmin is that they are they're all cozy games that deal with quite dire threats. Don't know anything about four, and three certainly tones it down, but 1 is about surviving an alien world, 2 is trying to get work done to see Olimar's family and save his lively hood and company, 3 is about trying to stop homeworld extinction on top of all that, Pikmin are in mortal threat every minute. but the scale of it all, the creature and world design, all make them really cozy and repayable to me.
I think people forget about the inherent goofiness of Pikmin 1 and 2. Pikmin 1 has less of that but a good amount of the ship parts in canon are just kinda junk that Olimar thought looked cool. The final part is his piggy bank for God's sake. Pikmin 2 amped it up though. The idea of your boss selling the ship you spent a month rebuilding and it's not even worth that much is pretty funny in an ironic kinda way. Even Emperor Bulblax being so nerfed is kinda funny. This hulking final boss becoming incredibly easy now that you're not against a death clock.
Pikmin 1, 30 day system was solid but pikmin 2 is definitely more unforgiving. After beating 4, I decided to revisit 2 since a lot of people rave about it
I think there’s more to be said about the lack of the journal than “it got moved to the Piklopedia”. Yeah, it’s great that more players get to see the interesting characterization of Olimar, but. Olimar writing in his journal was a great, thematically fitting cap to the days in Pikmin 1. Pikmin 2 caps its days off with a silly joke about the President or Olimar’s wife or something. It is a great opportunity to expand the world, but as a capstone to end your day on, I don’t think it fits as well as Olimar’s journal.
Pikmin 2 is the best in the series IMO, the length of the game is not too short and not too long, the difficulty, and strategizing in every single sublevel pulls me back again and again. This game does not treat pikmin players like babies like its predecessors, it gives you "bullshit traps and sublevels" because it knows you can accomplish these, if you've been paying attention. Pikmin 1 feels like a tech demo, pikmin 3 and 4 are easy and I genuinely never stressed out at all, except maybe the dandori challenges. Pikmin 1 can be "hard" but it is certainly beatable in less than like 17 days. I would be genuinely surprised if anyone over the age of 10 reached the 30 day limit
Okay to be fair, the cave randomness is sometimes an issue because although rarely, sometimes treausures just don't spawn in, though yeah his other points are kinda poopy. As for what I think the weakest game in the series is, I'd say Pikmin 1 is kinda bad compared to the rest of the series, and base Pikmin 3 just feels a bit too empty, despite how much nostalgia I have for that game
I’m sure he prefers Pikmin games that encourages replay ability rather than the marathon that Pikmin 2 is, plus I have to admit although Pikmin 1 and 3 are shorter, 3 has multiple other modes to keep you busy(especially in the deluxe version which he prefers), and both are short enough to where you won’t easily feel fatigue just by replaying them often meaning that Pikmin 2 is the hardest to come back to after playing it recently
Pikmin 3 *removed* cynical and depressing themes? the lose-state is the protagonists slowly starving to death along with their entire race going extinct, Olimar survives his lose-state at least so if anything Pikmin 3 is darker
I agree with so much of this, but I'll note that the naturalistic environment design of Pikmin 1 was a huge part of the appeal for me, and I definitely enjoyed Pikmin 2 less for not adhering to it as strictly. At the same time, this allowed for more varied environments and a lot of unique caves, rather than them all being literal, dark, damp caves. I'm the type who prefers Pikmin 1 and 3 over 2 and 4, and it's pretty clear how the series is divided in that way.
in fairness to the capitalism point, I think his actual complaint is that there's not really a "hook" to get invested in like in the first game. the whole "they dont explore it" is a response to the justification that capitalism *is* the theme, not the actual argument presented. I agree with you on most of the video, but I don't feel satisfied with how his point of "the hook is less interesting" was addressed. I feel like 3 and even 4 had way more interesting reasons for staying on PNF-404 (finding a new source of food, you're on a rescue mission, etc) Overall though, good video! I'm a first time player of the franchise and it's been fun going through your stuff now that I know what's going on.
Shaff’s argument about caves is so dumb. “They’re all the same, sure they have different enemies and layouts, but they all boil down to collect treasure and go to the next floor.” Yeah, by that logic, every area in Pikmin 1 is the same, because even though they have different enemies and layouts, they all boil down to collect ship parts and go to the next area.
Pikmin 2 is my least favorite Pikmin game for a variety of reasons, but I will admit you brought up really good points and did a far better job responding to Schafrillas's video than others. I don't really have much to criticize cause everything you said was fair.
i wanna mention similarly to him grinding the bitter spray, he did the dungeons by baiting the traps and said how that was lame my brother in christ you choose to make the game easy and cheap out the obstacles
For me, Pikmin 1 was all about multi tasking and time management to make the most out of your limited time and the 30 day time limit really forced you into this kind of play style (albeit be it only on your 1st playthrough) which I think is a good thing. The two captains of Pikmin 2 took the multitasking to a new level and while time management is still present, I really miss the rather harsh (on 1st playthrough) aspect of time management and while the caves were a cool idea, I'm not the biggest fan. Yes they can be fun, but I can't play Pikmin 2 for too long before I feel like they are getting tedious. Jumping into a hole in the ground and then dropping onto a dining table also is kinda random and breaks the immersion, it just did'nt feel like a believable eco system anymore which is something I truly loved in Pikmin 1. The vibe is just superb there. However, the Bossfights of Pikmin 2, the infinitely replayable 2player mode, the replayability cause of random caves, the actual difficulty, a rather hilarious story and the fact that basically all my gripes with Pikmin 2 are kinda cosmetic problems I have still make Pikmin 2 a superb game, just one that will always be below Pikmin 1 and 3 in my Personal ranking. (sorry for any grammar mistakes, English is not my 1st language and tbh, the only reason Pikmin 3 is above Pikmin 2 is nostalgia and I like the bosses and atmosphere/vibe more. Sadly, its so linear that its not nearly as replayable as Pikmin 1 or 2)
I can definitely see the juice being a good compromise between hard cap and no cap as a kid. Granted i was just awful at the game as kid (70+ days just to clear the debt as an example) so maybe its just me.
Pikmin 2 doesnt deserve that type of slander thanks for making this video cuz im sick of they baby ah sequels we've been getting Pikmin 2 is one of my all time favs too
the hardest thing about pikmin 2 is having to endure the sound of the treasure gauge, I can't finish the game because of that stupid beep, It drives me insane.
His video kinda ruined my revisit to Pikmin 2 tbh. I was so obsessed with not losing a single purple that it made the game stressful with hundreds of restarts when in reality it doesnt even matter that much and its better to just grind for purples at the end if I decide to Grinding for Purples at the end > Stressing about not losing any purples
I actually agreed with all of Schaff’s points… until I tried playing the game without resetting every time I lost more than 5 Pikmin. Suddenly I absolutely love Pikmin 2.
if i’ve taken away anything from this video it’s that the waterwraith should be implemented into every rts game
I don’t know where you got that idea but a mechanic like that can really work in many different rts games
"The siege of Moscow was halted when the Red Army deployed the Water Wraith again"
The real reason you shouldn’t invade Russia in the winter is because they’ll send out the Waterwraith
Dimensional creatures know no bounds
@@LinkhoodIf you take longer than 5 days to siege Leningrad, the Waterwraith will appear and flatten all your food, making it inedible
38 year old childrens cartoon reviewer DESTROYED by advanced pikmin connoisseur
um akshually, 25 🤓
@@bighairedyololcan't blame him for assuming tho given the territory
adults arguing online about children's media
@@grafzeppelin4069Peakmin is never limited by age.
@@grafzeppelin4069 pikmin is for GROWN MEN ONLY
dude is literally playing better than me and saying "everything is impossible to avoid"
Pikmin 2 speedrunning is more dynamic with the RNG. It's not so random that there's no skill involved or combinations so bad that they're truly impossible. Pikmin 1 and 3 are the same every time and with 10-20 years of strategy, you can have 1 optimal route and not nearly as much real-time strategizing
I'm gonna have to disagree with this specifically due to your use of "speedrunning." Pikmin 2 feels like the worst to speedrun because the time one gets is dependent largely on dungeon layout. So its impossible to truly compare playthrough times because each playthrough and what needed to be done to complete them varies.
@@Chilly_M04 people speedrun rougelikes all the time, and thats the most random genre there is yet its still super competitive. Sure, you're run can be better or worse depending on layouts and spawns, but most seeds are gonna come with good and bad so pretty much everyones gonna have to deal with it. Also speed running games with random elements like this is a unique form of challenge since speed running it is more about problem solving in real time than just memorizing every layout and exactly what to do where. The level layouts are consistent enough to know what you're generally gonna have to deal with on repeat runs. My favorite example of this is spelunky speed runs, so id recommend giving that a look into.
I've never been the biggest fan of the Doomsday Apparatus, and while it doesn't take long to grind for and obtain in the grand scheme of things, I think there's a much deeper discussion than "it takes 20 minutes to get." My personal issue with it is more about how much of a pace breaker it is. The Pikmin games are amazing examples of games designed for 100% completion, and it's the single blemish to this idea in the series, requiring you to go back into a cave and grind - even if you never lose a single Purple.
how do you feel about the gold bar in pikmin 4?
@@dorf7219have you heard of the purple onion
The purple onion makes it significantly better by itself, as for a first 100% playthrough, you get a way to mass obtain Purple Pikmin via new and unique gameplay, but there's still issues that come from repeat playthroughs. Spending, like, 2 hours doing the side content or 10 minutes constantly entering and leaving a cave is still a pace breaker, but by that point Pikmin 4's loading times are already putting in the work lol@@dorf7219
@@volvoman5262 yes, but you have to get to the end of a pretty challenging gauntlet. Its a very missable thing too, i didnt play sage trials until after i beat most the other content. just i didnt know they had the other onions in them. i ended up just farming violet candy pop buds pikmin 2 style
@@dorf7219 so dandori issue + you can fast travel to any sublevel in cave like ingolufed castle
One thing about Pikmin 2 I like is that it makes losing Pikmin more detrimental. In Pikmin 1, 3, and for the most part 4 All pikmin are easily replaceable. But in Pikmin 2 losing a white or purple is not an easy replacement which forces you to be careful when using them.
Even with other colors in caves you gotta be careful to not lose too many so that you’ll have enough pikmin to do everything the game requires you to do.
For example losing 30 reds in Pikmin 1 to a wolly wog means nothing except another trip to the onion to get more at worst. Losing 30 reds in a cave in Pikmin 2 might mean having to reset.
personally i'm not a fan of that. i don't like knowing if i mess up it's a reset, i want there to be *some* way to recover.
@@PhantomOfficial07 personally I think having my hand held that much would make a lose-state impossible and would cause the game to be boring.
@@moosecannibal8224 That's not having your hand held, it's just fair game design. A boring game would be having to manually reset your game with any mistake...
I honestly think that the frequent use of powerful insta-kill hazards in pikmin 2 is excellent and future games should consider the idea. Let's take the example of fire vs electricity in pikmin 2.
With fire, you can just hold B and it's irrelevant. It's just a minor inconvenience, and you only really want to bring like 5 reds to clear out a couple geysers due to their immunity to the hazard being irrelevant.
But with electricity, you can still clear out anode beetles and the electrical current wire thingy with purples, but it's incredibly risky. It makes you actually want to use yellows in order to assist you in clearing out hazard.
i dont even clear out fire geysers with reds i just clear them by swarming em with my whole squad, way faster and practically riskless
I agree with what you're saying, but to fixate on specifically electricity is missing the point. Out of the 2 minutes and 44 seconds which Schaffrillas spent talking about some kind of insta-kill hazard, he spent only 20 seconds talking about electricity, during which he referred to it as the "least egregious" and even sung a few of the praises you brought up about it. This doesn't strike me as someone who truly thought insta-kill electricity was the major problem with the game that needed to be fixed.
Schaffrillas spent most of the insta-kill sections talking about how the other powerful insta-kill hazards like bomb rocks and boulders (as well as some enemies) have problematic implementations in Pikmin 2 due to falling out of the sky seemingly at random, and this is one of the points he made that I agree with. You can't spot them or plan around them until they're about to slap you in the face without deep understanding of the cave generation system, yet they're one-dimensional enough that they would be nothing more than nuisances if the element of surprise were taken away. Regardless of how easy they are for a fully grown adult to dodge on reaction, they don't make for fun challenges or allow meaningful decision making. They're literally just reaction tests, and ones with frustratingly steep consequences for failing at that.
Imagine being a lobster who hates pikmin 2 for the wrong reasons
He’s secretly a segmented crawbster that’s the only explanation
There are right reasons to dislike Pikmin 2 BTW but I feel like he misses every problem that actually matters
wants the game to go into the horrors of capitalism
then calls the story and premise already too depressing and cynical
what??
That hint on the community tab was clever lol
To be fair, I feel the point about purples and the Doomsday Apparatus are fair ones against Pikmin 2. It's the only times in the game where need their carrying buff is required aside from needing only one, with the only other exception being the paper bag early in Awakening Wood if memory serves me right.
Either way, it leads to the single thing dissuading you from having purples steamrolling so much of the game being that you need to have 100 of them to complete the game, you aren't gonna know that in your first playthrough either. I wouldn't blame anyone for unlocking Wistful Wild, seeing the treasure and thinking "how was I supposed to know I needed 100 purples?"
Keep in mind we play these games a lot, so we know that the treasure exists, where violet candypop buds are to help grind their numbers and how to abuse their powers while keeping them safe, but in the perspective of someone playing for the first time, it'd probably be extremely frustrating, since you'd probably have to both grind way more and not even know where to start.
I love Pikmin 2, it was my favorite in the series before 4 just barely took that title, and it's still one of my favorites of all time, but I feel stating the Doomsday Apparatus is a minor inconvenience at most is pretty disingenuous.
Not to try to talk shit or anything, I agree with a ton of the points you made in 2's favor, just try to keep in mind how many times you opt out of using purples in combat the next time you play. Almost every time I did from my experience, it was because I knew I needed 100 purples.
2 is still my fav. Its great but dose have problems
To be fair, EVERYONE who played pikmin 2 wanted to field an army of 100 purples at least once. I'd say the flaw is the candypop buds, not the purple pikmin requirement.
@@Centinym yes i agree if they were more common the tressure would be alot better
The real issue is even if you never lose any purples, you with still need to grind for 30 more.
I love getting my day count as low as possible in Pikmin 1, but I feel like people gas up the limited number of days. I never ran out of time even as a kid, and from what other people have told me, neither have they.
yeah, on my first ever playthrough of pikmin 1 i think i beat the game in like 20-something days? so not good in terms of experienced players, but at the time i obviously wasn't experienced. i just remember making it to the distant spring in time to see the smokey progg, and i already knew about it going in since it wasn't a blind playthrough.
If there’s anything that Pikmin 1 is good at doing, it’s appearing as a cruel and unforgiving game while actually not being one in reality. Not only is this shown in the day counter, but with the general design of how pikmin work.
There are tons of accidents in Pikmin that can lead to your whole squad being wiped out, which feels absolutely terrible. However, the game always offers you a ton of pikmin so you’re very unlikely to actually run out in the long term even if your squad wipes. This way the player can experience the best of both worlds: The game feels brutal because mistakes can lead to HUGE short term losses, but since you always have more pikmin in the onion it never feels hopeless.
Pikmin 2’s caves instead require you to survive extended gauntlets with a mostly non-replenishing supply of pikmin, so it doesn’t do this nearly as well.
Slander to the Schaffrilas's Pikmin 2 video is never late to the party. That video is hot explosive garb. I've never heard someone talk about something and being so confident and so unapologetically wrong at the same time
Yes. This is how ignorance works.
hadn't seen that video when I watched this one and my jaw dropped at the part where he inadvertently revealed he apparently didn't understand procedural generation.
Schaffrila has a habit of doing that
I appreciate how this video actually both brings up scaffs inconsistency’s without being inconsistent itself. While I personally find Pikmin 2 the least enjoyable game in the series, I have been finding more flaws with a Scaffs video overtime (I think a lot of his worst arguments come down to not fully exploring why he doesn’t like certain elements) and it’s good to have a video that shows those flaws properly without attacking his character.
5:26 and also the floor he is showing is Snagret Hole Sublevel 2 which takes place after you exit from the bird house, which does make consistent and logical sense since you arent actually in a cave at that point since you literally fell out of a tree (and i am aware of the other above ground sublevels later in the game).
Heres my reason why pikmin 2 is the worst
Its not my thing
My favourite aspect is time attack and time management
You cant exactly time attack a 20 hour game
he has redeemed himself and now questions what the fuck he was talking about‼️‼️‼️
I will always respect people's opinion on liking Pikmin 2 the most, even though it is my least favorite. The reason is because your favorite gameplay element is going to determine which games you like best. If your favorite aspect is the resource management and battling enemies in Pikmin, then you will like Pikmin 2 the most, because it did this the best. If your favorite aspect is carefully planning out your day in order to be as efficient as possible and finishing the game in as few days as possible, then you will like Pikmin 1 or 3 the most because those games did that better. I am a person who just loves to replay a day over and over again until I perfect my run and get everything done I wanted to. Doing this in Pikmin 2 is a serious grind for me because I have to replay the same 2-3 caves over and over again until I collected everything that I wanted to on the surface in one run. And that surface gameplay where I am madly scrambling to get everything done as efficiently as possible is the gameplay that I find most enjoyable in Pikmin. Caves actively discourage my favorite way to play Pikmin. That doesn't mean that other people can't enjoy them, and it doesn't mean that there aren't still good aspects to them, even for me. I truly do still like Pikmin 2 a lot. But this is why Pikmin 2 is my personal least favorite in the series.
I play Pikmin to veg out after a grueling day's work and have a silly little space man collect shit so I get a vicarious sense of accomplishment.
So, naturally, 4 is my favorite.
This way batter defence than hiding in private did
getting jumpscared by those super origami kingdom made me spit out my drink, good job
11:02 Wait, wait... only the middle bullet of a Groink can actually kill Pikmin? Is there any indication of that in the game anywhere, cuz this is the first time I'm hearing of this. If this is true, then... I honestly feel like Schaffrilas kinda has a point here. There should be some actual indication that's how it works in-game, like a piece of dialogue in the Piklopedia, or the middle bullet looking more dangerous than the adjacent two.
It is true. Although as a kid I always thought it was a random bullet
the bullet I think is random on what it kills. I think it randomly selects a bullet to become deadly (b/c the game can swap out various status effects from objects so it swaps one of the bullets knockback status effect with the explosion status effect). It's a fair enemy still b/c it's discouraging to be within the Groinks range regardless
I mean boulders randomly kill pimin in 4 (unless there's some obscure condition for them dying), but it only makes a mechanic easier, so people probably don't pay too much mind to it. If only the middle kills, then it's kind of an aoe that stuns the pikmin, having a punishment for being too close but not as brutal as instakilling them. I guess think of it in reverse of the boulder, it could have been that the entire explosion instakills.
Well gatling groink is the worst enemy fkr a reason.
No the bullets are random
I would argue that Pikmin 1’s time limit is so forgiving as to be cosmetic, let alone Pikmin 3’s. Getting one part a day is both obvious and easy outside of the final part and that’s the one relevant optional part. The only way I could see it being a big deal is if you are playing for the first time, you’re very bad at the game, and you ardently refuse to reset a day no matter what.
I once watched a Let’s Play of the game where two people who were not that great at the game, who had some very incorrect knowledge and assumptions about it that hindered them, and they never seemed to reset (though I don’t think they had any catastrophic mistakes). Despite all of this, they beat it on day 22.
I seriously think all this time limit does is put people off from playing it. I know tons of people who never really gave it a shot because of that, and I’m one of them; despite beating Pikmin 2, I didn’t really try 1 until I saw that Lets Play.
While I generally disagreed with Schafrillas video, I feel like the point that a lot of the "surprise traps" were needlessly unfun and punishing to players, especailly on a blind playthrough, is a fair point. While I think most of the hazards are handled relatively well things like the falling bomb rocks and enemies, mitites in eggs, enemies burrowing out of rhe ground, etc often have little to no foreshadowing and very few ways to mitigate or remove them, I feel like that alone would be fine, but given how heavily they are used in end-game caves, they quickly become more annoying obstacles that dirsupts the games flow than actual threats.
Im glad SOMEONE made this video basically taking my exact thoughts on his video and putting them into actual words. While I understand not liking the game and everything it did, I do feel that some are a bit ignorant to the stuff Pikmin 2 was doing and just not really looking further into why stuff is the way it is in that game. It's kinda depressing to me that some people just cant see the thought and effort that went into most design decisions of that game...
Ah... I always forget Schafrillas was part of the "random generation means 0 design" garbage.
It's such a dumb argument, and I really want to explain why it's wrong one day.
Im really impressed with how you make such high quality content weekly for seemingly no revenue, keep the good work
One thing id be really interested to see you cover is Pikmin m[cencored]s like collosal caverns and true spice.
To me, the best rebuttal for the caves not having the same time systems or time limit is something I don’t see people talk about in pikmin at all. The urgency of Pikmin 1 begins and end at 30 days and 30 parts. Rationally you just do 1 part per day and you’re at least playing the game fairly and well. In Pikmin 2 the caves offer something different. Where time management skills no longer matter and now it’s about technical levels of skill. I absolutely love Pikmin 2 for being the hardest while fairest game and offering actual threats and spikes in difficulty. Where if the caves didn’t exist the game would just be a Time Trial or Time Attack version of Pikmin 1. Having a game feel more like a video game more than a puzzle is definitely what I want to see more of in Pikmin.
Sometimes just vibing allows world building to flourish. It's the most controversial but it adds the most new content in any of the games.
I think that the reason he thinks grinding the doomsday apparatus is time consuming is because he doesn't know you that you can enter sublevels with just your captains and your dismissed pikmin won't be left behind. Based on the background footage he uses, he seems to think that you need to take your pikmin with you, which will cause you to waste time due to fighting enemies.
That makes sense
Oh i didnt know that
6:25 To be fair time significantly slows down, and one main problem with Pikmin 2, in my opinion, was that caves could go on for longer than needed to
While the timer does keep ticking in pikmin 4, it doesn't actually start the end of day sequence until you leave it, so the end result is that, if you're doing a particularly long day, then that's the only thing you're doing that day.
11:46 me when i see people complaining about how they can insta-kill an Emperor bulblax with a single lightning shock max Oatchi rush spicy spray 100 Ice pikmin freeze in Pikmin 4:
I always preferred resource management to time management, as it adds far more variety and replayability to a game, seeing most of the newer community shit on the game breaks my heart
When I first saw Schafrillas' video over Pikmin 2, I just kind of agreed with him, and accepted that these things just didn't bother me, but after this video, I'm starting to realize how biased his video actually is, and how much it gets wrong. You make incredible points in this video, and I'm glad I found it.
Love the colossal caverns backround footage in some of your vids!
5:19 It DOES make sense that there's garden based sublevels inside dungeons. Have you ever realized that garden sublevels ONLY occur on first and second sublevels? It implies that you're not yet underground when you jump inside corresponding holes. Like the Snagret Hole. First sublevel you jump into the floor of a bird house and the second sublevel is a garden area. It makes sense. It's like the bird house was sitting at this garden area.
By the way, Pikmin 2 is also my favorite game of all time c:
I love how even Schaffrillas disagrees with his video, really speaks words
I think the guy just eanted to make a video bashing caves, filmed parts and then noticed how he still needed actual arguments, then proceeding zo contradict himself
@ No I mean he actually straight up disagrees about what he said in the Pikmin 2 video. He says so in his Pikmin 4 video and provides an example on why the he thinks his own argument is stupid with a Legend of Zelda metaphor. In a nutshell he said that just because a sequel of a game decides to be its own thing from the first game instead of improving what was already there does not mean it is bad in the slightest, that’s why Zelda has so many beloved games that are different in their own way.
Schafrillas' video is flawed, but I would say that a first time playthrough of Pikmin 2 can be rough, mainly in the late game. It really throws a lot at the player, and a newbie wouldn't be able to save most of their Pikmin without having to restart.
Despite this, we still enjoy and love Pikmin 2? Why is this? A TH-camr named ExoParadigmGamer has a theory he calls "the Sega Learning Curve". To quote him,
"Many of Sega's games include strange mechanics, awkward controls, or other off-putting design choices that can hamper a first-time player's enjoyment. On the other hand, repeat players will find games with lots of depth through advanced movement techniques. The Sega Learning Curve isn't an excuse for games that get better when you know what you're doing, but rather an acknowledgement that we enjoy certain games because we've played them enough to work around their flaws, and we're not wrong for liking them in spite."
Yes, I love Pikmin 2 greatly. But even I remember how frustrated I was when it decided to throw a bunch of enemies and bomb rocks at me at once. But I played it so often, I can work around it and enjoy it.
I got accustomed to the game pretty quickly on my first playthrough, but I've also watched plenty of playthroughs beforehand. Another thing about the game's traps is that most of them are easily reactable and you'd only get "tricked" if you're not paying attention and play sloppily. In a lot of older games you actually had to look at the screen, which is something that streamers and younger players aren't accustomed to.
I find it silly that he compares Pikmin 2's day system to Pikmin 3, as if Pikmin 3 wasn't a SEQUEL that improved off of the flaw of the one before.
well, to be fair, he does acknowledge that, he just reviews these games as their separate entities
I think he just disliked caves like 2/3rd of the community which is sad since its actually really fun how the caves are designed and the replayability they have. I don't understand why so much hate but that's just how the pikmin crumbles. Btw, it seems you have beef with Pikmin 3 or something lol. Also, your editing is actually getting sick man, continue on this pace👍
The 30 day limit is super generous even on a first play through, or even as a kid. A part a day is stupid easy, so it’s really barely even there.
Very good and measured response. One thing however:
You mentioned the caves of Pikmin 4 are usually shorter thanks to time still passing while you are in them, and that it makes it hard to plan your days around. I'd like to counter that the game tells you from the jump that 1/6 of the time passes in caves, so once you know how long a day is you can use a bit of math to set aside time for the caves.
Also the caves being short can be a good thing, sometimes the caves in Pikmin 2 can overstay their welcome and feel samey, while in Pikmin 4 the caves are a lot more tightly designed and unique from each other.
Definitely still love the caves in Pikmin 2, I just think Pikmin 4 did them a bit better.
Pikmin 3 does have a hard day limit. It's 100. There only enough juice to last 100 days
Really well made video, loved how you succinctly shut down the baseless criticisms. I've enjoyed schaf for years but his vid actually ruined Pikmin 2 discourse forever. I also love how you touched on cave generation, I hate how people act like it's sloppily put together and totally random, like, no, there's only a handful of generations just to keep repeat playthroughs fresh.
Maybe I'm on crack or something but I swear 2 was universally enjoyed back in the day. Like, it's perfectly fine for it to not be your fave but I swear 99% of criticisms boil down to nitpicks or just literal user error. Is Pikmin 2 too hard? then spam purples and sprays. Pikmin 2 doesn't have enough time pressure? Play faster, beat your previous times, nobody took this option from you.
Pikmin 2 is one of those games where the experience you have is dependent on how you play. I personally limit my purple pikmin to like, 10 max per squad and use more red pikmin for fighting, I don't even bother with berries since eggs in caves provide you more than enough sprays to have on deck, and hell I hardly even use sprays to begin with because I enjoy fighting enemies and having stakes. Lo and behold I have a complex real time strategy game jam-packed with features and nigh infinite replayability, amazing characters, + 10/10 soundtrack and visuals.
A way better system for adding time into Pikmin 2 caves would be to add time limits on every floor that's different for each floor depending on the amount of things in the floor, it would require more playtesting but it would make the game more stressful and add a level of intensity to the game
Maybe when the timer runs out, instead of just instantly killing you, it starts a super dangerous mode type thing that gets more and more intense the longer you try to stay in the floor for, where rocks are falling, maybe invincible enemies start chasing you, stuff like that
....WAIT A SECOND, CHALLENGE MODE EXISTS AND IT'S AWESOME
Personally I prefer Pikmin 2 the bad ending continues
That would Just be pikmin 4
RTS games aren't about time management. They're about resource management.
The crux of it I think is Schaf for some reason seems to look at games as if they were designed for the blind playthrough experience only, rather than rewarding repeat playthroughs.
He thinks Persona 5 is a 10/10 game which like, sure maybe on your first playthrough the story and dungeon crawling might resonate with you enough to consider it that good, but on replays once you already know everything that's gonna happen and the best way to become overpowered, especially in Royal, the gameplay, especially in combat, isn't nearly as rewarding as other SMT games, which have a much bigger focus on challenge and resource management. Which is odd considering his complaints about Pikmin 2's lack of said time management.
A lot of people forget he said that it wasnt a bad game but it wasnt for him
It’s baffling how the guy constantly contradicts himself. He can’t keep it straight if he wants challenging hazards/enemies and time limit mechanics or not. As for caves I’m one of the weirdos who really enjoyed them, and the random elements increase replayability. Plus, some of his other issues are just self inflicted problems. I’m definitely biased because Pikmin 2 is my FAVORITE game in the series. But, I’m willing to admit it has its flaws. That being said his video was just bad and only raised a few good points.
It’s not contradicting at all, he explains in the video that he likes challenging games, that are FAIR and CONSISTENT. Pikmin 1, 3, and 4 have differing difficulties that progress in a natural Manner, 2 doesn’t do that well at all.
He does point out some flaws in his video in his most recent Pikmin video. But what’s really baffling is how you think his video is bad when most of his points are valid. The only thing that’s bad about the video (that he addressed) was his view on it being a “Departure” of what made Pikmin, Pikmin.
@@We_Have_Dragons how much you get paid to ride like that
@@ultimate8125 If you’re gonna get upset at a TH-cam comment, come up with a better insult. Grow up lil bro. Thank you in advance.
@@We_Have_Dragons accuses someone of getting mad at a comment, responds by getting mad at a comment
@@annalilymae Except I didn’t. I replied to their comment with a valid argument and didn’t just insult them for no reason. He did. Nice try though.
Considering the other stuff I’ve seen from him. This isn’t the first wild take he had, and it won’t be the last. The capitalism part sounded like complete projection lmao.
so glad you made this! I remember being in a call with you and you were debating this, glad you decided to do it.
Wow. This made me realise how flawed Mr. Schafrillas’ arguments are. That video should really become… lost media. Or be revisited.
Also another ironic take he had was the spray stockpile he made, he complained it made the game too easy meanwhile in Pikmin 3 it is INSANELY easy to stockpile sprays as you can use a captain and a few Winged Pikmin to make a berry convoy while your other 2 captains complete the area
9:05 snitchbug bolted out of there
I actually never knew the Violet Candypop buds do respawn in Bulblax Kingdom, taught me something new there.
I'll have to remember that next time I playthrough 2 again.
The TamatoaGamingDA joke was exsquisite
He just has a Dandori Issue
Pikmin 2 is not my favorite, but the things I don't like about it are never even mentioned in this video at all. I just personally am not a fan of some of the caves, and think they run a bit long and are just a bit too combat intensive for what I personally want out of a pikmin game. I think a TH-camr who critiques Pikmin 2 in a pretty good way is probably Antdude
Holy shit Tamatoagaminggod jumpscare!
Just found out I should no longer play pikmin games because I found pikmin 1 time limit stressful. It's a sad day to be an ex-pikmin fan 😔
You bring up the background footage a lot you gotta remember that he has editors and he probably doesn’t find the footage himself
lol its like the editor disagreed with his statements and chose footage to contradict it. XD
No hate towards Schaf (because I doubt he intended to have this effect) but it really did feel like there was a massive influx of new fans who will shit on Pikmin 2 endlessly and overhype Pikmin 3. Of course there's valid criticisms for both and neither are bad games at all, but it made discourse of the games unnecessarily defensive.
Peakmin 2 is my favourite of the series and while I have my own problems with the game (some jank glitches, purples being too op, time limit should've been focused on more, reds being useless, etc), I love it regardless and a good amount of Schaf's points felt like either contradictions or personal nitpicks.
Love the content btw!
THIS USER is the OPINION BASHER. just jokes, love the video, and loved the tamatoagamingda jumpscare
Crab man displays what a midwit he is when it comes to pikmin 2. Great video btw.
In his Pikmin 4 review, he saw the flaws in this mid ass review he made and realized that he was a hypocrite because he loved Majoras Mask despite it being completely different than Ocorainia of Time...
What I like about Pikmin is that they are they're all cozy games that deal with quite dire threats.
Don't know anything about four, and three certainly tones it down, but 1 is about surviving an alien world,
2 is trying to get work done to see Olimar's family and save his lively hood and company,
3 is about trying to stop homeworld extinction
on top of all that, Pikmin are in mortal threat every minute.
but the scale of it all, the creature and world design, all make them really cozy and repayable to me.
Slight correction. One of the three Groinks bullets is randomly chosen to be deadly. So it won't always be the middle one.
I think people forget about the inherent goofiness of Pikmin 1 and 2. Pikmin 1 has less of that but a good amount of the ship parts in canon are just kinda junk that Olimar thought looked cool. The final part is his piggy bank for God's sake. Pikmin 2 amped it up though. The idea of your boss selling the ship you spent a month rebuilding and it's not even worth that much is pretty funny in an ironic kinda way. Even Emperor Bulblax being so nerfed is kinda funny. This hulking final boss becoming incredibly easy now that you're not against a death clock.
Pikmin 1, 30 day system was solid but pikmin 2 is definitely more unforgiving. After beating 4, I decided to revisit 2 since a lot of people rave about it
This and the new scruffy pikmin 2 music video on the same day? LETS GOOO!!!
I think there’s more to be said about the lack of the journal than “it got moved to the Piklopedia”. Yeah, it’s great that more players get to see the interesting characterization of Olimar, but. Olimar writing in his journal was a great, thematically fitting cap to the days in Pikmin 1. Pikmin 2 caps its days off with a silly joke about the President or Olimar’s wife or something. It is a great opportunity to expand the world, but as a capstone to end your day on, I don’t think it fits as well as Olimar’s journal.
why does this grown man sound personally insulted by pikmin 2 as if it told him it didnt care about his mother dying
Pikmin 2 is the best in the series IMO, the length of the game is not too short and not too long, the difficulty, and strategizing in every single sublevel pulls me back again and again. This game does not treat pikmin players like babies like its predecessors, it gives you "bullshit traps and sublevels" because it knows you can accomplish these, if you've been paying attention. Pikmin 1 feels like a tech demo, pikmin 3 and 4 are easy and I genuinely never stressed out at all, except maybe the dandori challenges. Pikmin 1 can be "hard" but it is certainly beatable in less than like 17 days. I would be genuinely surprised if anyone over the age of 10 reached the 30 day limit
Okay to be fair, the cave randomness is sometimes an issue because although rarely, sometimes treausures just don't spawn in, though yeah his other points are kinda poopy. As for what I think the weakest game in the series is, I'd say Pikmin 1 is kinda bad compared to the rest of the series, and base Pikmin 3 just feels a bit too empty, despite how much nostalgia I have for that game
I’m sure he prefers Pikmin games that encourages replay ability rather than the marathon that Pikmin 2 is, plus I have to admit although Pikmin 1 and 3 are shorter, 3 has multiple other modes to keep you busy(especially in the deluxe version which he prefers), and both are short enough to where you won’t easily feel fatigue just by replaying them often meaning that Pikmin 2 is the hardest to come back to after playing it recently
Perfectly puts my feelings into words, good job with this 👍
NEW VIDEO YEAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH i LOVE your videos! they always make my day
At this point I'm certain Schaf has fully transitioned into being a ragebait channel
“The game should have had more themes about capitalism.”
Oh, he’s one of those people.
I just realized they're playing as a drink cup
Pikmin 3 *removed* cynical and depressing themes? the lose-state is the protagonists slowly starving to death along with their entire race going extinct, Olimar survives his lose-state at least so if anything Pikmin 3 is darker
I agree with so much of this, but I'll note that the naturalistic environment design of Pikmin 1 was a huge part of the appeal for me, and I definitely enjoyed Pikmin 2 less for not adhering to it as strictly. At the same time, this allowed for more varied environments and a lot of unique caves, rather than them all being literal, dark, damp caves.
I'm the type who prefers Pikmin 1 and 3 over 2 and 4, and it's pretty clear how the series is divided in that way.
This is truly a Cocoa Puffs moment
He did mention how he didn't like some of his takes in his Pikmin 2 video from his Pikmin 4 video.
Don’t worry
He updated his opinions in Pikmin 2 in his Pikmin 4 review
Where are the sexy pikmin bosses I was promised?
10:30 Banjo Kazooie music goes kinda hard with the cave gameplay in the background
in fairness to the capitalism point, I think his actual complaint is that there's not really a "hook" to get invested in like in the first game. the whole "they dont explore it" is a response to the justification that capitalism *is* the theme, not the actual argument presented.
I agree with you on most of the video, but I don't feel satisfied with how his point of "the hook is less interesting" was addressed. I feel like 3 and even 4 had way more interesting reasons for staying on PNF-404 (finding a new source of food, you're on a rescue mission, etc)
Overall though, good video! I'm a first time player of the franchise and it's been fun going through your stuff now that I know what's going on.
Shaff’s argument about caves is so dumb. “They’re all the same, sure they have different enemies and layouts, but they all boil down to collect treasure and go to the next floor.” Yeah, by that logic, every area in Pikmin 1 is the same, because even though they have different enemies and layouts, they all boil down to collect ship parts and go to the next area.
Pikmin 2 is my least favorite Pikmin game for a variety of reasons, but I will admit you brought up really good points and did a far better job responding to Schafrillas's video than others. I don't really have much to criticize cause everything you said was fair.
i wanna mention similarly to him grinding the bitter spray, he did the dungeons by baiting the traps and said how that was lame
my brother in christ
you choose to make the game easy and cheap out the obstacles
For me, Pikmin 1 was all about multi tasking and time management to make the most out of your limited time and the 30 day time limit really forced you into this kind of play style (albeit be it only on your 1st playthrough) which I think is a good thing. The two captains of Pikmin 2 took the multitasking to a new level and while time management is still present, I really miss the rather harsh (on 1st playthrough) aspect of time management and while the caves were a cool idea, I'm not the biggest fan. Yes they can be fun, but I can't play Pikmin 2 for too long before I feel like they are getting tedious. Jumping into a hole in the ground and then dropping onto a dining table also is kinda random and breaks the immersion, it just did'nt feel like a believable eco system anymore which is something I truly loved in Pikmin 1. The vibe is just superb there. However, the Bossfights of Pikmin 2, the infinitely replayable 2player mode, the replayability cause of random caves, the actual difficulty, a rather hilarious story and the fact that basically all my gripes with Pikmin 2 are kinda cosmetic problems I have still make Pikmin 2 a superb game, just one that will always be below Pikmin 1 and 3 in my Personal ranking.
(sorry for any grammar mistakes, English is not my 1st language and tbh, the only reason Pikmin 3 is above Pikmin 2 is nostalgia and I like the bosses and atmosphere/vibe more. Sadly, its so linear that its not nearly as replayable as Pikmin 1 or 2)
How dare you make me respect your opinion more by playing Banjo Kazooie music
I can definitely see the juice being a good compromise between hard cap and no cap as a kid. Granted i was just awful at the game as kid (70+ days just to clear the debt as an example) so maybe its just me.
Pikmin 2 doesnt deserve that type of slander thanks for making this video cuz im sick of they baby ah sequels we've been getting
Pikmin 2 is one of my all time favs too
He came to his senses at the end realising Pikmin 2 is the WORST game ever. I mean who places the rating on the front...
the hardest thing about pikmin 2 is having to endure the sound of the treasure gauge, I can't finish the game because of that stupid beep, It drives me insane.
His video kinda ruined my revisit to Pikmin 2 tbh. I was so obsessed with not losing a single purple that it made the game stressful with hundreds of restarts when in reality it doesnt even matter that much and its better to just grind for purples at the end if I decide to
Grinding for Purples at the end > Stressing about not losing any purples
I actually agreed with all of Schaff’s points… until I tried playing the game without resetting every time I lost more than 5 Pikmin. Suddenly I absolutely love Pikmin 2.
Treasure Hunting is still a good enough motivation for me in a video game as far as story goes.
I never really trust his opinion since his pixar cars review. Can't believe he put it below ONWARD