Video about setting up the extractor as a two stage system: th-cam.com/video/QnyxOjddDt4/w-d-xo.html Video featuring various tests: th-cam.com/video/DJfZaAxuD7U/w-d-xo.html 125mm Flange: amzn.to/3YUc2hS (Amazon UK) geni.us/1xMUsi (Amazon Worldwide) Axminster 100mm Cyclone www.tagserve.com/clickServlet?AID=2469&MID=485&PID=691&SID=3060&CID=1965&LID=1276&SUBID=&TARGETURL=www.axminstertools.com/axminster-craft-accih-cyclone-interceptor-head-105872 Anemometer amzn.to/3uzCeCR (Amazon UK) geni.us/zmzrYg (Amazon Worldwide) If there's anything else you'd like to purchase from Axminster and you'd also like to help support my channel, please use this link: www.tagserve.com/clickServlet?AID=2469&MID=485&PID=691&SID=3060&CID=1965&LID=1276&SUBID= As an Axminster affiliate, I earn a small commission on any qualifying purchases and it doesn't cost you anything. Thank you! 0:00 Intro 0:23 2 Stage Extractor 1:17 Straight Ducting? 2:11 Cyclone Direction? 3:10 Cyclone AFTER Impeller? 5:29 Cyclone Modification pt 1 8:14 Cyclone Modification pt2 10:02 Myths Tested Want to be a CONTENT CREATOR like me? I have an online Content Creator Course - featuring 2 hours of content covering video ideas, thumbnails and titles, monetisation, filming, editing, FAQs, sponsors, earnings and loads more! Includes exclusive access to a forum where you can share ideas or ask for help, advice or feedback from a community of other video creators. Available now at bit.ly/b_h_c_c_c 🔨 MY TOOLS 🔨 For links to the tools I use, plus some of my favourite consumables, finishes and more see links below. As an Amazon associate I may earn from qualifying purchases UK affiliate store: www.amazon.co.uk/shop/ragnbonebrown US affiliate store: www.amazon.com/shop/ragnbonebrown 🤝 HELP SUPPORT THE CHANNEL 🤝 Support with TH-cam channel membership: th-cam.com/channels/VyE_6jEtVZGmYGXtUOL5FQ.htmljoin Support with Patreon: www.patreon.com/ragnbonebrown Support with PayPal paypal.me/ragnbonebrown Shop With Amazon using my affiliate link: geni.us/iWD3K 💰 SHOP 💰 Etsy: www.etsy.com/uk/shop/KeithBrownMaker teespring.com/stores/rag-n-bone-brown-merch 🎧 WORKSHOP BANTER PODCAST 🎧 th-cam.com/users/workshopbanter Also available on Spotify, Apple, Google and most other podcast platforms 🔗 LINKS: 🔗 Website: www.ragnbonebrown.com Facebook: facebook.com/ragnbonebrown Instagram: @ragnbonebrown Email: ragnbonebrown@gmail.com Second TH-cam Channel (non woodwork videos): th-cam.com/users/keefykeef
1:20 it’s not (just) about mass flow, it’s about having a laminar flow. The more the turbulent flow, the more likely it is for dust to make it past the cyclone. That said there’s lots of variables at play, and it seems yours isn’t a problem
Yes, I don't know if he wants to bait comments to bump the algorithm as this is a woodworking channel, so building things is part of the entertainment? This is all laid out in fluid dynamics.
@@fraserwright9482 Awesome, then please do the calculations before even commenting, link them here and then actually prove them in a real world setup. Looking forward to your impactful results. I'm sure it'll be changing the world of dust collection forever. 🤣🤣🤣
Despite what other might say, I think your design architecture you started and ended with is ideal. You have a very easy empty for both the cyclone and the filter, which at the end of the day is what saves time. If you wanted to make a direct to filter embodiment, maybe you could splice in a Y between the cyclone and the fan for those time where you might need that extra 30%, but as good as your system is I’m pretty sure you would rarely need it. Bravo on great video!
I inherited a similar centrifugal fan that had been used before the cyclone, and it took a week of chipping and sanding the built up debris from the blades to get them back into an efficient and balanced state again. For the sake of the 1.8cfm gain, it is better to have zero maintenance blades for decades, and zero shutdowns to replace bearings etc every couple of years, and that's without even factoring in the excess noise that creeps in when unbalanced.
The straight ducting is not affecting your flow rate, but it is affecting the momentum and the direction of the chips as they enter the cyclone. As the flex is clear as it enters the cyclone body, you will notice that your chips are riding along the top of the duct rather than in the middle. This is because the 45 elbow just upstream of the flex section. A longer straight portion will assist with the chips etering the cyclone body straight on instead of with upward momentum/direction.
Phew! Another video when I just about followed all the reasoning. I think you are very thorough and your advice must be so useful to others with workshops. I love watching!
It's been a long week for me and I want to relax on a Friday night. I didn't know I needed to watch a chap Min/Max his dust extraction equipment to do that! Great Stuff :)
This is how how I have my big sand blast cabinet set up. Been running it daily for 6.years. Aluminum impeller still looks good. One thing I noticed was if I blast a long period it builds up on impeller blades and starts to cause small vibration. But as soon as I shut off , everything falls off impeller blades and vibration is gone on the next start up. I've filled up two 25 gallon barrels with dust in 1 year. I use the large Dust deputy cyclone. My fan is In my attic and then runs outside to the dust deputy cyclone. Hope this Info helps others in future.
Great video. To be honest having straighter tube makes a difference to airflow, basic thermodynamics show that. But this refers to air without particles ie dust and shavings. The collision of those particles with each other and the bends or flexible change that fact, and in its current scenario, you chose wisely. There were a few things you could have done to get better repeatable precise results, but at the end of the day this is a dust collection system and not a rocket afterburner. Enjoyed your video, an although I’m not an expert in this field, your chosen solution is absolutely the way to go, for efficient and economical workshop usage. I have seen a video in which they changed the cyclone direction and it did make a difference, but yet again when you introduce dust and shavings, the cost of building such a cyclone far out way the benefits. Thank you👍🏻
You can increase airflow by reducing the gap between the impeller and the metal body of the vacuum unit. Remove the bolts from the side and add a spacer ring made from 6mm HDPE sheet.
No matter what you do there will always be the guy on the couch that knows more than everyone else. He is so smart that he has never had to own one or work with one to be able to still tell you how wrong you are 😂😂😂
I think you've done the right mods Keith, if you had the impeller before the cyclone then there is a small chnace anything metal sucked up could hit the impeller and form a spark sat in amongst all the dust and cause a fire. Very small chance but when it's your house/workshop its something you don't want to take. The 4" to 5" step up is crazy in terms of volume. Pizza analogy was great, but... pineapple? Yes or No?
Very Interesting Keith. I do have a 5" cyclone, but the cost of hose and other fittings is 'Very' expensive. I'll stick with reduced down to 4". Plus. I use solid pipe for as much as possible, reducing the resistance on the corrugated hose
Look up tubing called SCEET. It is similar to the tubing you are using now, but has a smooth Interior. It is used on aircraft engines for things like air intake tube's. For less critical functions like cabin air heat, the convoluted SCAT type tubing is used because it is cheaper. Might get you a couple more % improvement.
The 2 things that are going to affect your airflow the most are; 1: your smallest restriction. For example, if you were to put a 3in fitting in the system. That would be your biggest loss of flow. And 2: Line loss due to pipe and more specifically flexible hose. For example, at 2:00 you got 22.1 CFM and then later, just removing the pipe bumped you up to 24.3 CFM at 3:50. Making shorter runs to your machines and reducing the amount of flexible hose will yield the best results. (Note: The flexible hose is particularly bad because the ribs cause turbulence on the inside and reduce flow. However, A shorter run that uses more flexible hose might be better. If your run can be significantly shorter by using flexible hose.)
Your opposite rotations should be more efficient. It effectively increases the speed of the air hitting the fan blades, which gives them more lift (here suction). The only down side is that debris that is passed by the cyclone will strike the blades at a higher speed, potentially causing wear. But since it seems your cyclone is very efficient, that should not be a concern for many years. Thanks for the video!
Great video , I shall be looking at compacting my system and trying to increase the air flow, a small suggestion, perhaps remove the ribbed flex hose for metal ducting, this may reduce turbulence, love your videos , I’m on the same page 👍
To my mind the solution that yourself and others are trying to overthink regarding the transition from anti clockwise to clockwise rotation would be to insert a short section of plain vertical plate half way between the lowest end of the central Cyclone pipe and the extractor fan, a baffle plate, thereby interrupting the circular flow of air without resistance before being drawn in to the extractor fan where the rotation would be reversed. From your video that looks to be about a two foot section of a straight pipe. But since you have now increased the centre tube of your cyclone by one inch you seem to have achieved the perfect compromise. Well done.
I should read some of the comments. BUT ... that is a LOT of work you did (and some of it probably did not make the final cut). Thanks for compressing it down, and not blabbing on and on like ... well, I won't name any names ... but his initials are ... [nominations please?]
At 2.12...the problem with the junction near the cyclone was not the amount of air flow, as you rightly demonstrated. It was the turbulance caused by junction near the cyclone resulted in turbulant air flow entering the cyclone, which reduces its effeciency for removing chips and dust from the air flow. It works more effeciently if the air flow entering it is laminar, which the long pipe you tried delivers.
Hi Keith, great video. I'm in Ireland and have 2 different Oneida cyclones that I bought from a British company called Toolovation. One of them is 4" and the bigger one (but not much bigger than the Axminster one I'd say) has 6" ports
Good to see your improvement. Always good when shop dust collection can be improved, as I found out in my shop when I reduced the number of fittings, eliminated some high pressure drop fittings like "T"s, changed to long radius elbows etc. Two things to measure in a fluid, flow and pressure drop. The contraption combination of fittings you had originally used would have a lot more pressure drop than the straight pipe. Also flexible hose has a lot more pressure drop than smooth wall pipe. I installed a Thien baffle in my dust collector shroud inspired by the Jet model. I likely get more fines in the pleated filter than with a cyclone, but I do not have any suction pressure drop since the baffle is after the impeller and I avoided the cost of a cyclone and the space it consumes. I find the paddle on my pleated filter does not do a good job of cleaning the pleats. It knocks off some of the fines, but a lot remain in between the pleats. I remove the pleated filter now and again to take it outside for a good cleanout with brush and air hose.
Genius level experimenting. Axminster do make a 5" inlet cyclone, only problem is it comes as a complete extractor. Perhaps you could persuade them to let you have one to experiment with? See the AW118CE, I have one and it's perfect for me as standard. Oh and there is a 6" version in the AW145CE. I would love to see you play with either or both of these cyclones, as an off the shelf item they are bulky and like you I'm always looking to reduce the footprint of non productive but essential kit.
Any chance of another episode of workshop banter? Cheers for the advice in this video. Hope the workshops sorted for you. Just about to tackle mine in December. Need motivation to start 😊
Very interesting! I've got the same extractor and cyclone in my workshop. Extractor is in the loft of the garage, flexi pipe runs down to cyclone, pretty poor set up right now but it's a work in progress! The cyclone kills the airflow! Good to know that there are some ways of increasing this slightly. Plans currently, are to install 100mm spiral ducting straight down and terminating directly at the table saw (10" iTECH) so it doesn't go into the cyclone and has a much higher flow to extract the fine dust although now seeing amount of fine dust in the extractor, it may not be worth it due to it getting blocked up quickly. Then, mid way up this drop, a Y-Piece to the cyclone, and then flexi hose to the planers. There will also be a T-Piece ceiling level to span across the width of the workshop to pipe down to the bandsaw on the opposite side. After this video, I think I may push the spiral ducting to 125mm for the extra flow. Overall, a lot to think about before settling on the final design and purchasing the spiral ducting.
The The accordion hose also creates a huge loss of air speed. When calculating loss of static pressure, flex hose has about 4X the loss is straight pipe. I’ve done that experiment in my shop and actual numbers where very close to the calculations...keep the runs of flex hose as short as possible.
The idea about a straight run is mostly for the flow after the impeller. Which is not an issue for you since you’re going to a filter…your trial and error approach is cool. Thx for doing that.
The idea of a straight run is surely about optimising for flow of chips and dust? Measuring the airspeed is kind of irrelevant, what's important is how the chips flow
Good presentation , I appreciate the work and creativity (pizza). It’s curious that your dust cyclone does not have a neutral vane design at the end of the intake. The neutral vane is a transition from round intake pipe to rectangular termination that ends halfway into the chamber along the wall. You see this in commercial industrial cyclones as well as the Bill Penz design of cyclone. I must comment to only straight pipe recommendation , that is to improve the cyclones dust separation not to change air flow. I would have thought that you would see an improvement by removing the turns. Again good presentation , thank you.
I would think that the reduction in diameter of the pipe from the blower to the extractor would actually increase the efficiency of the dust extraction because the velocity of the airflow has to increase to pass through the smaller diameter and would thus increase the amount of dust spun out of the air stream.
The people that say adding a cyclone does not significantly affect airflow are correct: IFF the diameter all match then it would barely have an impact. But as you state: from 4" to 5" is a huge difference and the inlet of the cyclone is still a big restriction. And a longer straight inlet: that would of course not have much of an impact on airflow but it does in separation with cyclones that have a very short down-pipe inside. A taller narrower cone will lead to better separation (up to a point) but also increase pressure-drop. But a thing that has no negative effects is smoothness: the inside should be as smooth as possible - that can drastically improve separation with some cheap models that have a noticeably rough surface.
A superb demonstration Keith and a worthwhile improvement too. Do you think switching the corrugated 5” connection pipe, between the cyclone and impeller unit, for a smooth rigid pipe would help? I only ask as I always believed corrugated pipes caused turbulence and lowered efficiency of airflow.
If you want, 3D printing can solve all the issues: a properly sized inlet adapted to your cyclone, or even a direct connection between the different components.Complex shapes are no problem, and I recently modified my dust extraction system. I’d be happy to help you if you want or even send you various prototypes.
Since you have access to the inside of your cyclone, why not mount the motor/impeller directly to the top of the cyclone? Drill the holes in the top of the cyclone to match the pattern that the shield attaches to the face of the impeller inlet. My understanding is that you want the horizontal inlet to be slightly smaller than then vertical exhaust to accelerate the dust as it enters the cyclone phase and then decelerate the air as it advances up into the vertical tube (allowing the particles to fall from suspension). This explains the increase in efficiency of the cyclone separation of your experiment. So if your inlet, is 4", and our outlet is 5", the air velocity will be higher through the centripetal phase and lower at the updraft. I also don't agree with the opposing direction of the impeller/cyclone argument. The rotation of the air entering the cyclone will continue through the updraft, but that rotation is not correlated to the efficiency of the impeller, which relies on acceleration outward radially, not helically like a propeller. This would still be preferable (see Safran RISE engines) as the inertia of the helical rotation would improve the attack angle of the blades as the next stage attempts to accelerate the air. This is also the reason why compression stages in jet engines are opposing directions (the fixed blades between the rotating component). In contrast, the opposing rotation directions are more likely to improve the rate of suspension release as the (imaginary picture of twisting) air will stall closer to the bottom of the 8" inlet within the cyclone body. TL;DR: Cool video. Thoroughly enjoyed.
Really interesting video. I love the technical details because this stuff costs a lot of money and it’s so worth getting it right. Thanks for all your work so I can benefit from. One question, where did you get your grey ducting from and it it 100mm or some other size. Thanks.
Thanks yes 100mm, and it's pipe usually used for air systems. It's pretty expensive. BES, TLC, Fastlec, wherever I can get 2m lengths delivered to me cheapest
Hi! I worked for 4 years in verification of industrial extraction equipment like yours. The setup isn't bad, and for light work is just fine, but I'd recommend to vent the filtered exhaust outside: you are enriching your indoor atmosphere with pm10 and pm2.5 particles every time you use the setup, and these are known to be carcinogenic (hardwood dust is a 1A carcinogen, according to IARC). Edit: the filter takes out the bigger particles, but does nothing on those with size below the cutoff point
Wood dust is generally between 2 and 3 microns. Cartridge filters filter down to 1 micron, therefore captures over 99% of particulates. Besides... How would one exhaust an entire filter outside ?
I really appreciate this. I have a 1 1/2 hp Grizzly wall mount with a 6" outlet that I 45 + 45 to make a 90 degree down into my Dust Deputy. The Dust Deputy has a 5" outlet. Due to various reasons, I have it down to a 4" after about 8' and then it runs 4' to the rest of the shop. It does do a good job, but I am reeaaaaaalllly wanting to test 5' all the way to the various tools and then drop to 4' right at the end. I'm also wondering if it's ok to turn my Grizzly on its side like you did. I'll probably check Reddit to see if anyone else has done that with my same model. Shoot, you might have a video on before and after you turned it sideways. I'll poke around your channel. Thanks for the great content!
The junction not killing airflow, it's killing the laminar airflow and filtration. Letting the incoming airflow settle to laminar helps the dust/dirt seperate better. The tube between the first seperator and the blower was/is the restriction but you found this around halfway through video. Keep the velocity on the cyclone inlets as high as possible.
Adding a bell mouth to the inlet and outlet ends of your ducting, like the one inside the cyclone, and the one outside the window, will have a marked increase in airflow. Avoid adding an elbow at the outlet end of your exhaust just in case you happen to think about doing it. ;-) Reference a book titled "Fan Engineering", long out of print but the bible on vent system design.
the only time bypassing the cyclone has worked for me is when i just exhausted everything outside. the fine dust goes everywhere, so unless you have a small outbuilding or live in the middle of nowhere it isn't really an option for most folks. when you bypass the cyclone and filter the air it's great for a bit but then the filter clogs and you lost what you gained and then some.
you might be able to reverse the motor rotation by swapping couple motor leads, if you do that the impeller will rotate in the opposite direction. assuming that's what you want. most motors let you change rotation, look at the motor tag or name plate it might tell you which leads to swap . be careful , make sure the power is disconnected. I see there is capacitor on that motor , so be very careful and make sure you discharge the capacitor so you don't get a nasty surprise . be safe. Thanks.
Excellent work, Keith! It got even better than I imagined! 😃 But yeah, sometimes you need to modify things, because there's no other way. Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
Interesting stuff... when you got to 7:26 though I can't be the only one thinking "Why even use the flexi pipe to join the cyclone and impeller". Just wondering if you considered not even using the flange and pipe and just butting the cyclone tight up to the impeller, perhaps with some mdf or plywood between with some gasket material and just screwing them all together? Or was it more from a maintenance perspective?
Most cyclones are of the reverse flow type, where the pipe in the centre reverses the flow of air, so there should be no drama with the impeller in terms of turbulence.
Interesting. I've got a very similar setup, and my plan was to swap the heavy impeller, which came with the system and was designed to handle chips and crud passing through, with a lighter, more efficient one. This would mean the startup time and start current drawn would be lower, but it obviously could not cope with large chips in the air stream, so it has to be after the cyclone. The question then, is, would the improved, more efficient impeller gain more than the 5% you got by moving it to before the cyclone?
Can you take apart for your 4inch cyclone separate and flip the section that reads "Axminister workshop" upside down, then reasemmble? That way you could invert the intake.
If you exhausted the air out of the building, would you need a cyclone? Cause the reason to get a cyclone is so that the filter doesn’t get as clogged. I’m thinking of exhausting out of my shop, then it would direct the tiny particles out of the room. And how much would exhausting out of The building bring the heat down? I’m hoping to set up my system with switches at the blast gates and when I use a tool then I open the blast gate, use the tool and turn it off.
regards reversing the blower... never saw the motor side of the housing. i assume its identical, a flange held on with several bolts. in which case its not too big a deal to swap them over, flip the motor wires for reverse (usually just two shorting bars change orientation, many of them have the diagram in the terminal box) and maybe flip the impeller over if its got curved blades... though the curvature isnt as big a deal as one would think. and you can always try and make a timber impeller ;) some research into impeller designs and you can very well possibly outperform the stock one... their optimised for mass manufacturing, not performance. the corrugated ducting, another loss and source of turbulence... if you can get away without it by mounting directly to the cyclone... personally the original configuration was the better one... cyclone, blower, filter. along with, obviously... smoother bends/junctions, longer tapers on any reducers... not much you can do in that regard. then theres another unexplored option. rather than one large cyclone, split it into several small ones. pretty standard in industrial applications, and a certain household vacuum cleaner... (who ran into patenting issues over that industrial aspect already being a thing...) smaller cyclones have smaller particle sizes... ive made pipsqueaks that can filter out smoke? theres always a loss in a cyclone, its inherent, but it can be hard to distinguish between the energy taken to maintain the vortex versus the ducting loss and restriction it poses... "off the shelf" cyclones fall back into that "optimised for manufacture rather than performance" aspect again. always a compromise. i made several over the years for concrete grinding, they always outperformed any commercial units. though maybe not always as convenient or easy to service, lol...
I guess you can tune your setup by shortening the internal pipe until you just start to get dust in the filter catch bin. This should give you the highest flow rate while optimising what the cyclone is separating.
Nearly every flour mill in the world uses massive fans and cyclones to convey stock around the mill. there will be engineering sales companies who will have old cyclones, airlocks and fans for sale. Companies such as Buhler, Satake and Alvin blanch would be the brands to look out for. On a final point the increase in airflow by placing the fan before the cyclone will be offset by wear on the fan.
Ps, please ensure you position earthing straps between the clips where your plastic flexible pipe is connected. A strap would have to be connected between each clip. A build up on static in this area could lead to a dust explosion in your workshop.
It looks like the construction of your impeller might allow you to take it apart and put it back together with the spiral chamber reversed, If it has straight vanes, then you would just need to reverse the wiring to reverse the rotation, and then it's reversed. If the vanes are curved you would need to replace the rotor, which is obviously too much to ask, but straight vanes are reasonably common, since they can be installed on motors spinning either direction, and most applications don't need this kind of optimization.
did opening up the cyclone outlet to 5" improve dust collection at the jointer/thicknesser? I'm designing a 3d printable cyclone with 5" ports so keen to see how your modified one performed.
It would probably have been a bit better but I moved all my machines around after this so the ducting to it is now longer and probably ruined those gains
If the motor is reversible i would think if you reverse the spin of the motor it would reverse the air spin. that's if the impeller has straight fins and it isn't held in place with a threaded fastener.
The cyclone is recieving dust clockwise and the fan is counter clockwise. If one switched the fan intake and motor to opposite ends would you not get a better laminar flow. I was just wondering.
Video about setting up the extractor as a two stage system: th-cam.com/video/QnyxOjddDt4/w-d-xo.html
Video featuring various tests: th-cam.com/video/DJfZaAxuD7U/w-d-xo.html
125mm Flange: amzn.to/3YUc2hS (Amazon UK) geni.us/1xMUsi (Amazon Worldwide)
Axminster 100mm Cyclone www.tagserve.com/clickServlet?AID=2469&MID=485&PID=691&SID=3060&CID=1965&LID=1276&SUBID=&TARGETURL=www.axminstertools.com/axminster-craft-accih-cyclone-interceptor-head-105872
Anemometer amzn.to/3uzCeCR (Amazon UK) geni.us/zmzrYg (Amazon Worldwide)
If there's anything else you'd like to purchase from Axminster and you'd also like to help support my channel, please use this link: www.tagserve.com/clickServlet?AID=2469&MID=485&PID=691&SID=3060&CID=1965&LID=1276&SUBID= As an Axminster affiliate, I earn a small commission on any qualifying purchases and it doesn't cost you anything. Thank you!
0:00 Intro
0:23 2 Stage Extractor
1:17 Straight Ducting?
2:11 Cyclone Direction?
3:10 Cyclone AFTER Impeller?
5:29 Cyclone Modification pt 1
8:14 Cyclone Modification pt2
10:02 Myths Tested
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The theory is that the input pipe must enter the cyclone cut at 90°, not being flush with the sides where it has to push against a centrifugal flow.
I admire your dedication to the video by getting a pizza to illustrate the point, that must have been a tough one.
Business expense 👍
He ate that pizza just for us. A true hero.
😂😂😂
@@RagnBoneBrownIs this legit
True sacrifice in the name of science.
1:20 it’s not (just) about mass flow, it’s about having a laminar flow. The more the turbulent flow, the more likely it is for dust to make it past the cyclone. That said there’s lots of variables at play, and it seems yours isn’t a problem
Yes, I don't know if he wants to bait comments to bump the algorithm as this is a woodworking channel, so building things is part of the entertainment? This is all laid out in fluid dynamics.
@@fraserwright9482 Awesome, then please do the calculations before even commenting, link them here and then actually prove them in a real world setup.
Looking forward to your impactful results. I'm sure it'll be changing the world of dust collection forever. 🤣🤣🤣
A guide that directs the flow towards the outer perimeter of the cyclone perhaps? Careful to not restrict the opening.
Despite what other might say, I think your design architecture you started and ended with is ideal. You have a very easy empty for both the cyclone and the filter, which at the end of the day is what saves time. If you wanted to make a direct to filter embodiment, maybe you could splice in a Y between the cyclone and the fan for those time where you might need that extra 30%, but as good as your system is I’m pretty sure you would rarely need it. Bravo on great video!
I inherited a similar centrifugal fan that had been used before the cyclone, and it took a week of chipping and sanding the built up debris from the blades to get them back into an efficient and balanced state again.
For the sake of the 1.8cfm gain, it is better to have zero maintenance blades for decades, and zero shutdowns to replace bearings etc every couple of years, and that's without even factoring in the excess noise that creeps in when unbalanced.
The straight ducting is not affecting your flow rate, but it is affecting the momentum and the direction of the chips as they enter the cyclone. As the flex is clear as it enters the cyclone body, you will notice that your chips are riding along the top of the duct rather than in the middle. This is because the 45 elbow just upstream of the flex section. A longer straight portion will assist with the chips etering the cyclone body straight on instead of with upward momentum/direction.
Phew! Another video when I just about followed all the reasoning. I think you are very thorough and your advice must be so useful to others with workshops. I love watching!
Wow, thank you!
It's been a long week for me and I want to relax on a Friday night. I didn't know I needed to watch a chap Min/Max his dust extraction equipment to do that! Great Stuff :)
Enjoy
Love it, reckless Keith with a grinder is a joy to behold lol
🤣👍
This is how how I have my big sand blast cabinet set up.
Been running it daily for 6.years.
Aluminum impeller still looks good.
One thing I noticed was if I blast a long period it builds up on impeller blades and starts to cause small vibration.
But as soon as I shut off , everything falls off impeller blades and vibration is gone on the next start up.
I've filled up two 25 gallon barrels with dust in 1 year.
I use the large Dust deputy cyclone.
My fan is In my attic and then runs outside to the dust deputy cyclone.
Hope this Info helps others in future.
Thanks Keith, very interesting, I'm looking forward to seeing your workshop reorganisation too !
Great video. To be honest having straighter tube makes a difference to airflow, basic thermodynamics show that. But this refers to air without particles ie dust and shavings. The collision of those particles with each other and the bends or flexible change that fact, and in its current scenario, you chose wisely. There were a few things you could have done to get better repeatable precise results, but at the end of the day this is a dust collection system and not a rocket afterburner. Enjoyed your video, an although I’m not an expert in this field, your chosen solution is absolutely the way to go, for efficient and economical workshop usage. I have seen a video in which they changed the cyclone direction and it did make a difference, but yet again when you introduce dust and shavings, the cost of building such a cyclone far out way the benefits. Thank you👍🏻
Thank you for your significant effort & time to conduct real science for our benefit.
You can increase airflow by reducing the gap between the impeller and the metal body of the vacuum unit. Remove the bolts from the side and add a spacer ring made from 6mm HDPE sheet.
No matter what you do there will always be the guy on the couch that knows more than everyone else. He is so smart that he has never had to own one or work with one to be able to still tell you how wrong you are 😂😂😂
love the experimenting Keith. Really interesting and helpful
Nice result, I love a bit of experimenting
Thank you!
You can make your own cyclone out of MDF and a metal trash can. I improved my dust collection by adding a second impeller in parallel.
I think you've done the right mods Keith, if you had the impeller before the cyclone then there is a small chnace anything metal sucked up could hit the impeller and form a spark sat in amongst all the dust and cause a fire. Very small chance but when it's your house/workshop its something you don't want to take. The 4" to 5" step up is crazy in terms of volume. Pizza analogy was great, but... pineapple? Yes or No?
Pineapple, yes for me!
I really appreciate the time and effort you put into this clip. That’s dedication for sure.
I appreciate that!
Very Interesting Keith. I do have a 5" cyclone, but the cost of hose and other fittings is 'Very' expensive. I'll stick with reduced down to 4". Plus. I use solid pipe for as much as possible, reducing the resistance on the corrugated hose
Look up tubing called SCEET. It is similar to the tubing you are using now, but has a smooth Interior. It is used on aircraft engines for things like air intake tube's. For less critical functions like cabin air heat, the convoluted SCAT type tubing is used because it is cheaper. Might get you a couple more % improvement.
The 2 things that are going to affect your airflow the most are; 1: your smallest restriction. For example, if you were to put a 3in fitting in the system. That would be your biggest loss of flow. And 2: Line loss due to pipe and more specifically flexible hose. For example, at 2:00 you got 22.1 CFM and then later, just removing the pipe bumped you up to 24.3 CFM at 3:50. Making shorter runs to your machines and reducing the amount of flexible hose will yield the best results. (Note: The flexible hose is particularly bad because the ribs cause turbulence on the inside and reduce flow. However, A shorter run that uses more flexible hose might be better. If your run can be significantly shorter by using flexible hose.)
Your opposite rotations should be more efficient. It effectively increases the speed of the air hitting the fan blades, which gives them more lift (here suction). The only down side is that debris that is passed by the cyclone will strike the blades at a higher speed, potentially causing wear. But since it seems your cyclone is very efficient, that should not be a concern for many years. Thanks for the video!
Great video , I shall be looking at compacting my system and trying to increase the air flow, a small suggestion, perhaps remove the ribbed flex hose for metal ducting, this may reduce turbulence, love your videos , I’m on the same page 👍
Like it. Good testing and mythbusting! I need to look at my cyclone and see if it has that inner pipe.
To my mind the solution that yourself and others are trying to overthink regarding the transition from anti clockwise to clockwise rotation would be to insert a short section of plain vertical plate half way between the lowest end of the central Cyclone pipe and the extractor fan, a baffle plate, thereby interrupting the circular flow of air without resistance before being drawn in to the extractor fan where the rotation would be reversed.
From your video that looks to be about a two foot section of a straight pipe.
But since you have now increased the centre tube of your cyclone by one inch you seem to have achieved the perfect compromise. Well done.
I was thinking of mounting the motor of my dust extraction. Now I know how exactly to do it. Thank you.
I should read some of the comments.
BUT ... that is a LOT of work you did (and some of it probably did not make the final cut).
Thanks for compressing it down, and not blabbing on and on like ... well, I won't name any names ... but his initials are ... [nominations please?]
At 2.12...the problem with the junction near the cyclone was not the amount of air flow, as you rightly demonstrated. It was the turbulance caused by junction near the cyclone resulted in turbulant air flow entering the cyclone, which reduces its effeciency for removing chips and dust from the air flow. It works more effeciently if the air flow entering it is laminar, which the long pipe you tried delivers.
Hi Keith, great video. I'm in Ireland and have 2 different Oneida cyclones that I bought from a British company called Toolovation. One of them is 4" and the bigger one (but not much bigger than the Axminster one I'd say) has 6" ports
Really interesting Keith, thanks for running the experiments. Definitely given me some extra thoughts for my new workshop setup.
Well done for the gains - every little helps as they say - got to admire your dedication Keith.
Really good information. Thanks!!
Good to see your improvement. Always good when shop dust collection can be improved, as I found out in my shop when I reduced the number of fittings, eliminated some high pressure drop fittings like "T"s, changed to long radius elbows etc.
Two things to measure in a fluid, flow and pressure drop. The contraption combination of fittings you had originally used would have a lot more pressure drop than the straight pipe. Also flexible hose has a lot more pressure drop than smooth wall pipe.
I installed a Thien baffle in my dust collector shroud inspired by the Jet model. I likely get more fines in the pleated filter than with a cyclone, but I do not have any suction pressure drop since the baffle is after the impeller and I avoided the cost of a cyclone and the space it consumes.
I find the paddle on my pleated filter does not do a good job of cleaning the pleats. It knocks off some of the fines, but a lot remain in between the pleats. I remove the pleated filter now and again to take it outside for a good cleanout with brush and air hose.
Looks like you're really sucking up all the good ideas here! Can't wait to see how these hacks blow away your dust problems in the new layout! 😀
Really interesting video and excellent explanation of what you found Keith.👍
Genius level experimenting. Axminster do make a 5" inlet cyclone, only problem is it comes as a complete extractor. Perhaps you could persuade them to let you have one to experiment with? See the AW118CE, I have one and it's perfect for me as standard. Oh and there is a 6" version in the AW145CE. I would love to see you play with either or both of these cyclones, as an off the shelf item they are bulky and like you I'm always looking to reduce the footprint of non productive but essential kit.
Thanks I'll check it out
Any chance of another episode of workshop banter? Cheers for the advice in this video. Hope the workshops sorted for you. Just about to tackle mine in December. Need motivation to start 😊
We were going to try and do one before year end, so hopefully 🤞
Robust and comprehensive approach. Very cool.
Have you considered buying a three motor cam vac? The cyclone barely changes the airflow. I’ve had one set up for the past year, they’re great
Good video K.
I worried when you took out the down tube in the cyclone 😮. My bad, I should have had more belief!
Why were you worried? 👍
You are thorough!
Very interesting! I've got the same extractor and cyclone in my workshop. Extractor is in the loft of the garage, flexi pipe runs down to cyclone, pretty poor set up right now but it's a work in progress! The cyclone kills the airflow! Good to know that there are some ways of increasing this slightly.
Plans currently, are to install 100mm spiral ducting straight down and terminating directly at the table saw (10" iTECH) so it doesn't go into the cyclone and has a much higher flow to extract the fine dust although now seeing amount of fine dust in the extractor, it may not be worth it due to it getting blocked up quickly. Then, mid way up this drop, a Y-Piece to the cyclone, and then flexi hose to the planers. There will also be a T-Piece ceiling level to span across the width of the workshop to pipe down to the bandsaw on the opposite side.
After this video, I think I may push the spiral ducting to 125mm for the extra flow. Overall, a lot to think about before settling on the final design and purchasing the spiral ducting.
The The accordion hose also creates a huge loss of air speed. When calculating loss of static pressure, flex hose has about 4X the loss is straight pipe. I’ve done that experiment in my shop and actual numbers where very close to the calculations...keep the runs of flex hose as short as possible.
Great video and great information. Thanks for sharing
The idea about a straight run is mostly for the flow after the impeller. Which is not an issue for you since you’re going to a filter…your trial and error approach is cool. Thx for doing that.
Thank you
The idea of a straight run is surely about optimising for flow of chips and dust? Measuring the airspeed is kind of irrelevant, what's important is how the chips flow
Good presentation , I appreciate the work and creativity (pizza).
It’s curious that your dust cyclone does not have a neutral vane design at the end of the intake. The neutral vane is a transition from round intake pipe to rectangular termination that ends halfway into the chamber along the wall. You see this in commercial industrial cyclones as well as the Bill Penz design of cyclone. I must comment to only straight pipe recommendation , that is to improve the cyclones dust separation not to change air flow. I would have thought that you would see an improvement by removing the turns. Again good presentation , thank you.
I would think that the reduction in diameter of the pipe from the blower to the extractor would actually increase the efficiency of the dust extraction because the velocity of the airflow has to increase to pass through the smaller diameter and would thus increase the amount of dust spun out of the air stream.
The people that say adding a cyclone does not significantly affect airflow are correct: IFF the diameter all match then it would barely have an impact. But as you state: from 4" to 5" is a huge difference and the inlet of the cyclone is still a big restriction.
And a longer straight inlet: that would of course not have much of an impact on airflow but it does in separation with cyclones that have a very short down-pipe inside.
A taller narrower cone will lead to better separation (up to a point) but also increase pressure-drop. But a thing that has no negative effects is smoothness: the inside should be as smooth as possible - that can drastically improve separation with some cheap models that have a noticeably rough surface.
Interesting results - thanks for sharing!
Thanks for watching!
A superb demonstration Keith and a worthwhile improvement too. Do you think switching the corrugated 5” connection pipe, between the cyclone and impeller unit, for a smooth rigid pipe would help? I only ask as I always believed corrugated pipes caused turbulence and lowered efficiency of airflow.
It's so short that I really don't think it makes much of a difference 👍
If you want, 3D printing can solve all the issues: a properly sized inlet adapted to your cyclone, or even a direct connection between the different components.Complex shapes are no problem, and I recently modified my dust extraction system. I’d be happy to help you if you want or even send you various prototypes.
Since you have access to the inside of your cyclone, why not mount the motor/impeller directly to the top of the cyclone? Drill the holes in the top of the cyclone to match the pattern that the shield attaches to the face of the impeller inlet. My understanding is that you want the horizontal inlet to be slightly smaller than then vertical exhaust to accelerate the dust as it enters the cyclone phase and then decelerate the air as it advances up into the vertical tube (allowing the particles to fall from suspension). This explains the increase in efficiency of the cyclone separation of your experiment. So if your inlet, is 4", and our outlet is 5", the air velocity will be higher through the centripetal phase and lower at the updraft.
I also don't agree with the opposing direction of the impeller/cyclone argument.
The rotation of the air entering the cyclone will continue through the updraft, but that rotation is not correlated to the efficiency of the impeller, which relies on acceleration outward radially, not helically like a propeller. This would still be preferable (see Safran RISE engines) as the inertia of the helical rotation would improve the attack angle of the blades as the next stage attempts to accelerate the air. This is also the reason why compression stages in jet engines are opposing directions (the fixed blades between the rotating component).
In contrast, the opposing rotation directions are more likely to improve the rate of suspension release as the (imaginary picture of twisting) air will stall closer to the bottom of the 8" inlet within the cyclone body.
TL;DR: Cool video. Thoroughly enjoyed.
Really interesting video. I love the technical details because this stuff costs a lot of money and it’s so worth getting it right. Thanks for all your work so I can benefit from.
One question, where did you get your grey ducting from and it it 100mm or some other size. Thanks.
Thanks yes 100mm, and it's pipe usually used for air systems. It's pretty expensive. BES, TLC, Fastlec, wherever I can get 2m lengths delivered to me cheapest
@@RagnBoneBrown thanks, I'll take a look
You should be able to swap the inlet and motor fittings on the squirrel fan to cange the effective direction of rotation of the air flow
Hi! I worked for 4 years in verification of industrial extraction equipment like yours.
The setup isn't bad, and for light work is just fine, but I'd recommend to vent the filtered exhaust outside: you are enriching your indoor atmosphere with pm10 and pm2.5 particles every time you use the setup, and these are known to be carcinogenic (hardwood dust is a 1A carcinogen, according to IARC).
Edit: the filter takes out the bigger particles, but does nothing on those with size below the cutoff point
Wood dust is generally between 2 and 3 microns. Cartridge filters filter down to 1 micron, therefore captures over 99% of particulates. Besides... How would one exhaust an entire filter outside ?
Very useful, thank you sir.
Interesting ! With the bigger outlet the smaller inlet is (probably) increasing the strength / speed
If pizza gets mentioned there's got to be some footage.
Nice thinking mate 😉
Business expense 👍
I really appreciate this.
I have a 1 1/2 hp Grizzly wall mount with a 6" outlet that I 45 + 45 to make a 90 degree down into my Dust Deputy. The Dust Deputy has a 5" outlet. Due to various reasons, I have it down to a 4" after about 8' and then it runs 4' to the rest of the shop. It does do a good job, but I am reeaaaaaalllly wanting to test 5' all the way to the various tools and then drop to 4' right at the end.
I'm also wondering if it's ok to turn my Grizzly on its side like you did. I'll probably check Reddit to see if anyone else has done that with my same model. Shoot, you might have a video on before and after you turned it sideways. I'll poke around your channel.
Thanks for the great content!
Cheers! Yep I do have a video on that, it's got a pink thumbnail 👍
Nice testing.
Love these videos
excellent...does the length of the internal cyclone pipe affect fine dust amounts?
If you could 'bodge' a bellmouth opening onto the inner cyclone pipe I am sure you would get some gain in flow.
Usefull stuff, thanks a bunch.
The junction not killing airflow, it's killing the laminar airflow and filtration. Letting the incoming airflow settle to laminar helps the dust/dirt seperate better. The tube between the first seperator and the blower was/is the restriction but you found this around halfway through video. Keep the velocity on the cyclone inlets as high as possible.
From what I undertand "Cyclones" go counter clockwise in Australia, but down there they call them "Uriacains". Hope that helps.
Very comprehensive and practical. Thanks. If you use electrical tape instead of duct tape you will lead a happier woodworking life.
Adding a bell mouth to the inlet and outlet ends of your ducting, like the one inside the cyclone, and the one outside the window, will have a marked increase in airflow. Avoid adding an elbow at the outlet end of your exhaust just in case you happen to think about doing it. ;-) Reference a book titled "Fan Engineering", long out of print but the bible on vent system design.
Very interesting.
I was shocked with the results you got mate !
🤣👍
You could improve it slightly more by using smooth pipe runs instead of the ridged pipes. The ridges in pipes cause turbulence which reduces air flow.
The fans running in opposite directions creates turbulence which also helps separate the large particles from the small
9:41 now i'm wondering how much creativity will be unlocked once YOU start 3D printing
Very interesting Keith, thank you. Has this resolved the issue with extraction on your P/T in planer mode ?
the only time bypassing the cyclone has worked for me is when i just exhausted everything outside. the fine dust goes everywhere, so unless you have a small outbuilding or live in the middle of nowhere it isn't really an option for most folks. when you bypass the cyclone and filter the air it's great for a bit but then the filter clogs and you lost what you gained and then some.
Nice video
6:09 i hope you remembered to put that pizza down as a business expense 😁
you might be able to reverse the motor rotation by swapping couple motor leads,
if you do that the impeller will rotate in the opposite direction. assuming that's what you want.
most motors let you change rotation, look at the motor tag or name plate it might tell you which leads to swap .
be careful , make sure the power is disconnected.
I see there is capacitor on that motor , so be very careful and make sure you discharge the capacitor so
you don't get a nasty surprise .
be safe.
Thanks.
Excellent work, Keith! It got even better than I imagined! 😃
But yeah, sometimes you need to modify things, because there's no other way.
Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
Thanks! 👍
Interesting stuff... when you got to 7:26 though I can't be the only one thinking "Why even use the flexi pipe to join the cyclone and impeller". Just wondering if you considered not even using the flange and pipe and just butting the cyclone tight up to the impeller, perhaps with some mdf or plywood between with some gasket material and just screwing them all together? Or was it more from a maintenance perspective?
There's so little length in ducting that I really can't see it making any difference
Most cyclones are of the reverse flow type, where the pipe in the centre reverses the flow of air, so there should be no drama with the impeller in terms of turbulence.
Damn it Keith.. now im going to have to change my setup again again 😅 can't find out this knowledge and then not apply it
Interesting. I've got a very similar setup, and my plan was to swap the heavy impeller, which came with the system and was designed to handle chips and crud passing through, with a lighter, more efficient one. This would mean the startup time and start current drawn would be lower, but it obviously could not cope with large chips in the air stream, so it has to be after the cyclone. The question then, is, would the improved, more efficient impeller gain more than the 5% you got by moving it to before the cyclone?
Be interested to know! 👍
Very interesting...
Can you take apart for your 4inch cyclone separate and flip the section that reads "Axminister workshop" upside down, then reasemmble? That way you could invert the intake.
Would require som hacking that would damage it a lot more. Most likely be easier to completely remake it out of some plywood and metal sheet.
Very cool
Hi Kieth, great result :) Could you share where you get your flexible ducting please.
amzn.to/49c6UKI this is the best quality stuff I've found
Thank you
@@RagnBoneBrown wow! That was fast :) thank you Kieth :)
If you exhausted the air out of the building, would you need a cyclone? Cause the reason to get a cyclone is so that the filter doesn’t get as clogged. I’m thinking of exhausting out of my shop, then it would direct the tiny particles out of the room. And how much would exhausting out of The building bring the heat down? I’m hoping to set up my system with switches at the blast gates and when I use a tool then I open the blast gate, use the tool and turn it off.
I'm curious as to the difference (if any) in air flow rates between smooth pipe and corrugated pipe
regards reversing the blower... never saw the motor side of the housing. i assume its identical, a flange held on with several bolts. in which case its not too big a deal to swap them over, flip the motor wires for reverse (usually just two shorting bars change orientation, many of them have the diagram in the terminal box) and maybe flip the impeller over if its got curved blades... though the curvature isnt as big a deal as one would think. and you can always try and make a timber impeller ;) some research into impeller designs and you can very well possibly outperform the stock one... their optimised for mass manufacturing, not performance.
the corrugated ducting, another loss and source of turbulence... if you can get away without it by mounting directly to the cyclone... personally the original configuration was the better one... cyclone, blower, filter. along with, obviously... smoother bends/junctions, longer tapers on any reducers... not much you can do in that regard.
then theres another unexplored option. rather than one large cyclone, split it into several small ones. pretty standard in industrial applications, and a certain household vacuum cleaner... (who ran into patenting issues over that industrial aspect already being a thing...)
smaller cyclones have smaller particle sizes... ive made pipsqueaks that can filter out smoke?
theres always a loss in a cyclone, its inherent, but it can be hard to distinguish between the energy taken to maintain the vortex versus the ducting loss and restriction it poses...
"off the shelf" cyclones fall back into that "optimised for manufacture rather than performance" aspect again. always a compromise. i made several over the years for concrete grinding, they always outperformed any commercial units. though maybe not always as convenient or easy to service, lol...
I guess you can tune your setup by shortening the internal pipe until you just start to get dust in the filter catch bin. This should give you the highest flow rate while optimising what the cyclone is separating.
Yes!
can you find someone to 3D print a reverse cyclone? I use a small one that I printed and it works great!
Now the next experiment: The relationship between length of internal cyclone pipe on airflow/seperation. If wonder what is the most optimal length
Nearly every flour mill in the world uses massive fans and cyclones to convey stock around the mill. there will be engineering sales companies who will have old cyclones, airlocks and fans for sale. Companies such as Buhler, Satake and Alvin blanch would be the brands to look out for.
On a final point the increase in airflow by placing the fan before the cyclone will be offset by wear on the fan.
Ps, please ensure you position earthing straps between the clips where your plastic flexible pipe is connected. A strap would have to be connected between each clip. A build up on static in this area could lead to a dust explosion in your workshop.
It looks like the construction of your impeller might allow you to take it apart and put it back together with the spiral chamber reversed, If it has straight vanes, then you would just need to reverse the wiring to reverse the rotation, and then it's reversed. If the vanes are curved you would need to replace the rotor, which is obviously too much to ask, but straight vanes are reasonably common, since they can be installed on motors spinning either direction, and most applications don't need this kind of optimization.
did opening up the cyclone outlet to 5" improve dust collection at the jointer/thicknesser? I'm designing a 3d printable cyclone with 5" ports so keen to see how your modified one performed.
It would probably have been a bit better but I moved all my machines around after this so the ducting to it is now longer and probably ruined those gains
If the motor is reversible i would think if you reverse the spin of the motor it would reverse the air spin. that's if the impeller has straight fins and it isn't held in place with a threaded fastener.
The cyclone is recieving dust clockwise and the fan is counter clockwise. If one switched the fan intake and motor to opposite ends would you not get a better laminar flow. I was just wondering.
Explained in the video 🤷♂️