Battle Report - Carnage & Glory II (28mm Napoleonic)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ส.ค. 2024
- The debut of the computer-moderated rule system Carnage & Glory II by Nigel P Marsh on the channel. Five battalions of Prussian Landwehr fight a delaying action to prevent four battalions of Italian Line Infantry from seizing the crossroad. The Italian Brigade had two hours to try and achieve this whilst outnumbered 2:1.
Scale - 1" = 25 paces.
Time - 1 turn = 15 minutes.
0:00 - Titles
0:11 - Intro
0:54 - Orders of Battle
1:18 - Deployment
23:25 - OB Status
34:40 - End of the Game & Wrap Up
Please note that all system images from C&G II are the creation of Nigel P Marsh.
Excellent battle report. Clear and concise giving a very good overview of the operation of Carnage & Glory II. You pitched the battle at just the correct level to ensure a clear understanding of what was happening on the table. Beautiful layout and magnificent figures. An outstanding job IMHO. I would enjoy seeing more
Thank you for such high praise, I'm glad you enjoyed it! There were a number of things that can be improved for next time but my main goal was to establish a proof of concept when it comes to showing a computer-moderated set of rules. Hopefully this provides a good baseline from which to create more entertaining battle reports in the future.
Great. Really enjoyed that. Very clear report and interesting to see how the narrative of the battle is really well supported by the rules system. It made good viewing, thank you.
Thank you very much, I'm glad it came across well considering it isn't the usual dice roll based rules setup. More to come in the future!
Enjoyed this game, seeing the C&G computer readouts, and the painting of the figures is a wonderful looking set of units, congrats!
Thanks, my preferred set of rules every time.
Interesting system! Great report too. Thanks for doing it!
Thank you glad you enjoyed it.
Great collection, and refreshing to see some Italians! Nice work and great eye for detail. Looking forward to more videos. Keep it up from Italy 🇮🇹
Thank you.
Excellent video! I am just getting started out on C&G myself. Looking forward to more videos of this game.
Thank you. It is still my intention to film some more, when the time is available to do so.
Thanks, nice to see a different rule set in use, Italians especially look great. Great stuff, looking forward to another.
It's definitely my preferred set of rules aside from Empire V. My intention certainly to do more, just got to churn out a few more units for each side... and get a bigger playing surface.
@@thelastbattalion3509 we always need just one more unit and a bigger table.....😀😀👍
Excellent battle report! And the system looks really good and realistic! I think I will give it a try :)
Thank you very much - great news, I hope you enjoy it!
I really enjoyed that.
Glad you enjoyed it, I wondered if it would come across okay compared to traditional dice rolling games.
I hope you do more of these!
Me too and in more than one scale hopefully!
Good report and I'd like to see you do another please. I noted that according to the OOB the Prussians had a battery but none was seen. I assume that if they had had that battery then a Prussian victory would have been more likely. I'm down in France and have had C&GII for ages but need to use it one day.
Thank you. Like most of my projects I regret not having played two or three more games since, but time is ever scarce unfortunately - not just for the playing but the recording and editing too. You're quite right, as others have also noted I included a battery and then neglected to include it. I think it was because I wrote the list and then hadn't finished painting it yet! C&G II remains my go to system for multiple periods.
Love to see millan!
They certainly played an important role in maintaining the Italian's offensive impetus towards the end of the battle.
Great after action! I think you did an excellent job integrating some of the onscreen information with the video footage. You'll notice quite a few modifications from this older 2014 version to the latest 2021 version. Although not necessary at this scale of game with the small number of forces engaged, I'd suggest that, as you increase the number of units and officers, you'll find it helpful to tag each with their unique ID number, it's only a minor visual distraction, but really helpful.
Thanks Nigel, it's very flattering to receive praise from the creator of the system! I'm very much looking forward to fielding the 2021 version in upcoming videos. On the ID Tags that is something that I will bring in, the only reason I didn't on this occasion is that I could remember which was which. For larger engagements the tags will certainly be needed, for my own and the viewer's reference; plus it demonstrates to the uninitiated how things are kept track of. Now to paint some more miniatures and find a way to expand the playing surface!
@@thelastbattalion3509 Thanks for the Battle Report, I think you did a fine job of showcasing what looks to be a fascinating system. I've read a lot about it and have online friends in America who tell me that it plays very well. How long did it take you to do the data input that happened off-camera? And is it simply a case of "Unit 100 fires at Unit 200 at a range of 75 yards"? and you get the results at the end of all the entries?
@@malcolmrose3361 Thank you, I'm glad the system came off well. The off camera data input takes only moments even though I was doing it, although it helps that there it was a relatively small action it's so straightforward that you can cant through it. In an ideal world you might have a separate GM. The mechanism is as you describe in terms of firing, you select the firer and their target, input their unit ID number (so 101 and 501), plus ticking any modifiers that may apply. The system will recognise the units and flash up their status when you put the ID numbers in. Then you initiate and will be provided with a result, before moving on to the next one. As in all the different phases the system will recognise things that are amiss and inform you of anything that you need to know. Firing is simultaneous but because it's a piece of software it can easily keep track of that compared to if you were trying to do so yourself!
@@thelastbattalion3509 The fatigue aspect definitely appeals to me - it does grate when I see a battalion plough through the opposition with no ill effects whatsoever. The idea that you need a reserve to carry out a passage of lines and press on appeals. I presume that there are mechanisms for limited ammunition supply in the limbers, as well as fatigue for the gunners? And I suppose if you were using the campaign add-ons some of the stragglers would return to the colours but some wouldn't.
@@malcolmrose3361 I agree, and C&G is paying particular attention to the psychological fatigue as much as the physical exertion. Reserves are important at all levels as they would be in reality (and shown by the Milan Guard here). Larger scale engagements would showcase that even more, with the ability to throw in a fresh brigade or the need to bring up the Corps reserve division etc. The system tracks ammunition expenditure for all of the units and you can select what percentage of the unit fires at any one time. For example the first round of firing at a new target from artillery will be modified by the system to account for the gunners finding the range, so reducing the percentage firing limits both ammunition expenditure and fatigue. Blazing away with 100% of a battalion will have the same impact on its ammunition and fatigue at 150 paces as at 25 paces. I'm less familiar with the campaign system I'm afraid but the tactical system does calculate the return of troops to the colours that were missing/straggling/lightly wounded in the end of battle screen.
I really like these rules. They really drive a satisfying narrative, which I think is important. Will you be doing more 1813 battle reports?
Thank you, it’s one of the things I particularly like about them too. More 1813 reports in the new year once things get going again!
Very nice presentation...figures and terrain look great. Good to see Carnage and Glory getting some attention. If your version is from 2014 you should upgrade to the most recent 2021 version , many significant upgrades.
Thank you I'm glad you enjoyed it. I had already acquired the newer version of the software, but at the time of recording I hadn't installed it; it's ready to go for the next one.
@@thelastbattalion3509 That makes sense since you mentioned things like the dispersal option, which is more recent than 2014.
Great vid. Perfect length. Lovely figures and table. Long time since I have played a computer moderated game. I like the fatigue and desertion element as well as the disparate training, equipment, unit sizes that this allows but, how much time did it take to key in data to get result/ outcomes?
Thank you very much. The most time consuming piece of data entry is setting up the Army Lists and OBs in the first place. During the course of the game the only inputs that are required are the entry of the relevant unit's unique three digit identifying number. That is either for something pertaining to only it (formation change) or for fire/combat in which case the opposing unit's numbers are needed. Apart from that it's a small selection of tick boxes for relevant modifiers as appropriate.
Also, once complete armies have been entered into the system it's easy to extract portions of those armies to set up a scenario. So if the complete army was say 20 battalions, you can still set up a games using 10 battalions by extracting them from the master list. This simplifies things a lot because you only have to input master data once. After that it's extracting what you need/want.
hey man. have you ever considered doing some Danish infantry? im from Denmark myself and im super interrested in the danish forces in the 1813 german campaign. on the perrys website they are available. love your videos. keep up the good work😃
I haven't, although I am aware of the Danish troops of the period. If I had more resources I might paint small groups of interesting figures from different nations. It's not impossible that I might do so one day, there are just so many tempting miniatures on the Perry's site!
Just did a google translate lookup for Battalion in Italian - its "battaglione" ... but that doesnt really help ! :)
Thanks for the quality content - good stuff.
Ha, thanks for trying!
good to see these rules in use - interested to hear if you carried on using them after this test run? Also - what happened to the Prussian Foot battery (unit 525) listed in the OOB? I didnt see it on the battlefield?
Yep, still use them. Favourite rule set. The battery? Probably a mistake, I compiled the list for parts of my intended collection so I hadn’t painted it at the time.
@@thelastbattalion3509 great to hear you still use them. Would love to see another video of C&G2 in use, it’s very helpful to watch as the phases of a single turn are played out.
A great presentation of C&G 2. Our group has used this system for a couple of years and really enjoys it because of the fog of war. I wish more gamers could get over the need to roll dice and appreciate this system for what it is. By the way, very nicely painted figures. Who is the manufacturer?
Thank you. I can see why some might not like the feel of a game that doesn't involve dice. I'm happy playing either type, but C&G II is definitely my preferred rule set for Napoleonics. The figures are almost all plastic and metal from Perry Miniatures, with the exception of the three Silesian LW battalions, which are from Warlord Games.
@@thelastbattalion3509 That's a very good report. Hope you do more of them. Our gaming group is lucky in that the smallest table available is 8ft * 6ft. so we can play much larger games. In our group, the guy who has the French has around 20 battalions and I have 12 battalions of British and Portuguese. However, I do have one question about your scenario - if the Prussians were performing a delaying action, why didn't you put them on defend orders? that would give them a slight bonus.
@@malcolmsleight9334 Thank you. 8x6ft would be the ideal size I think, a decent amount of frontage and some depth for manoeuvre reserves etc without needing to hold anything but the first line off table. The scenario was quite loose in its design really, I left both sides defaulted to attack to keep things straightforward and allow the Prussians to be a bit more aggressive. I already had so many things going on including the filming I would definitely have forgotten that they were unable to advance without leaders!
Nice battle report, interesting to here it described with losses of men and fatigue instead of removing figures or placing markers on the units.
Quick question why do you use 28 figures for your units seems odd to me anyway basing 2 lots of 8 figures and 2 lots of 6 figures why not 4 lots of 4 or 8 figures.
Beautiful painting on those figures by the way and nice to see these two forces instead of the usual French and British.
Thank you very much, it was one of my intentions to get away from automatically churning out French troops by deciding to pick a variety of units from the IV Corps of the time. Although there will be some French I also have a Polish Regiment to do as well. In terms of the basing it was because I was making a compromise as C&G 2 isn't concerned with the actual number or arrangement of figures; it cares about the frontage. Once I worked out roughly what frontage corresponded to the historical strength of the units at the time I then had to decide how to divide the bases up and what would fit on them. They still didn't have to turn out the way they did, it's just how I decided to go with them. Although you don't have to, if there were significant enough losses to reduce the theoretical frontage of the unit I would quite likely remove a base (or two) to reflect that.
@@thelastbattalion3509 thanks for the explication, quite interesting I use old school basing for mine 15mm per figure frontage.
Look forward to see more of your painting and battle reports cheers Chris
That is pretty much what the infantry frontage works out as for these (40mm depth for two ranks). Gives a nice compact feel.
@@chriswilson4280 The rules show frontages for the various major combatants in the Napoleonic era. However, we have found that units based for other systems, eg. General de Brigade, isn't a problem in C&G2 - just adjust the number of stands to match an approximate frontage. This system is very forgiving for basing. The number of figures is really irrelevant, it's the actual number of real men in the battalion that the system cares about.
@@malcolmsleight9334 thanks
Just started with C&G 2. Q: If I decide to employ 'battalion guns', where do I place the gun? Left flank, right flank, centre, or not at all because the system takes it into consideration?
Wonderful, welcome to the rule set! Off the top of my head I would say that from a Napoleonic perspective the disposition of the battalion guns are at the discretion of the relevant commander. If say a pair are at the disposal of the battalion commander, he can place them as he like to support his main body - whether manned by a group of artillerymen or infantry detached with some artillery training. Scaling it up a little to regimental level, the various battalion guns attached to the formation are likely to be found in the intervals between the constituent units (battalions) in such a way as to provide some support whilst hopefully not interfering with the evolutions and movements of the units.
That all presupposes actually representing them on the table. The systems takes into account the presence of battalion guns when they're indicated to be present as part of the OOB. As it might be impractical to represent them due to size of bases etc. then that suits very well. For example my 28mm artillery - two pieces represent 6-8 guns, but at 6mm each model represents two guns; the latter would make it more practical to also represent battalions guns, even if only nominally to remind you that the unit has them. Otherwise you don't have to have them on the table, unless you decide or a historical OOB indicates that they are grouped together, at which point you might represent them with an actual battery that permanently accompanies the relevant infantry.
Hope that helps!
Gorgeous game lads! Might I ask who makes the hedges please?
I believe I bought them from S&A Scenics, a reliable and quality service for a very reasonable price.
@@thelastbattalion3509 Thank you kindly.
Very nice video and battle report.
I am looking for a computer moderated campaign system where one can use any tabletop rules to play the battles, then transfer the results to the campaign system. If you have any such system let me know. Cheers
Thank you. When you build an Army List in C&G II you extract part or all of it to use as an Order of Battle for a game. When the game ends, you can choose to reconstitute it back to its original state OR you can put it back in the Army List with the casualties, fatigue and ammunition loss that it has suffered. In that way you could simulate a form of campaign as the units could carry over the effects of previous engagements.
However, there is also a separate Campaign System for C&G II that is specifically designed to work alongside the Tactical System and has its own features for the operational and/or strategic level of campaigning.
@@thelastbattalion3509 I would be interested in seeing the campaign system . Do you have a demo of that campaign system? If you do where can I download it? Thanks 🙏
There isn’t a demo of it as such but all the information is available at the link below. Mr Marsh is very happy to answer questions and there is a groups.io forum for the systems as well, these are your best sources of information. Hope that helps.
carnageandgloryii.com/postbattle.htm
One more question: How long did it take to play the game? I just bought the system and I'm reading through the rules and it looks like it's quite time-consuming process...
This specific game wasn't much longer than it's video run time. Once your familiar with the concepts the most time consuming part is preparing the Army Lists and from those the Order of Battle. The ideal scenario might be considered to be having a dedicated GM in addition to the players, but it isn't a requirement. Anything that needs deciding by the system is usually a matter of entering one or more 3-digit unit tags, perhaps with some tick boxes to activate relevant modifiers. Having ID tags for the units (something I didn't use for this gam) helps speed up that process.
well done ! i think the Italians should have had 1 more battalion , any divisional commander sending in an outnumbered brigade on an attack would find himself looking for work elsewhere , if not shot for stupidity ! :)
i see you suffer from the same problem i do , not finding a good spot to deploy your artillery and having them standing around most of the game .
It’s only a vanguard (plus that’s all that’s available). I don’t intend to perfectly balance any of my C&G 2 games. The artillery issue is as much due to the scale and table size as my impatience to send in the infantry. That one battery did make a difference to the attack!
I get the impression the system would work well for a solo player- what do you think?
Yes i think it would - that game was played solo for example. However the limitation is that there’s no ‘AI’ to it, so you would need to be fair and proportionate to both sides as far as possible.
Hi, Can I ask what manufacturer are the Italians?
Of course, they are all Perry Miniatures - mostly plastic but with some metal figures mixed in (to the command groups).
@@thelastbattalion3509 Thank you, I am looking to get into painting a small battalion of Napolionics and trying to work out what army I should start with. I am a collector rather than a gamer. What would you recommend. I am browsing the Perry site at the moment and looking at the army deal No.49
@@markwarne893 If you're painting purely for enjoyment and collecting then (without knowing your familiarity with the period) browse through the different nations and see which style and colour of uniform you find most pleasing and would get enjoyment out of recreating. Note that many of the uniforms also changed over the course of the period. I'm also more weighted towards painting than gaming - for my small 28mm collection I chose to model parts of the same IV Corps in 1813 because it contained a variety of nations and thus troop types/uniforms for me to model. You'd also need to decide if you're painting a single unit/battalion how many figures you want to make up for it, and if that number is meant to represent a certain size or strength (it doesn't have to).
@@thelastbattalion3509 Hi, I used to love this period, and being an avid Airfix fan when I was small I collected French and the British which I am happy to say I still have. I think I gave up when I started buying minifigs back in the 1970s as the cost of lead was high for my pocket money so I moved into GW late 80s as they had plastic. Fast forward a few years and I have been busy painting Victrix and Agema Romans etc but I fancy a bit of a break before my next Etruscan project starts and I thought I would do a small force of later French and I have been toying with the Perry's minis or perhaps Victrix. Hard to know which one is better. Thanks for the tips I will follow your you tube vids for more info.
That's really cool that you still have your original Airfix collection! It would certainly be a significant change of pace to paint some Napoleonics instead of Ancients. My personal preference is for Perry over Victrix. I'm not slandering Victrix, they just aren't my cup of tea.