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The fact people are calling the scout, demo, sniper, hell even spy pick classes is dumb, and makes me ashamed in this community soldier has two pickaxe melees, the title of pick class is his god damn birthright
@@wet0wl Still doesn't justify your assumption to say pick-classes are not pick-classes. Like we get the joke, just the build-up to the joke is non-sense
@@badluck7286 The buildup to the joke makes perfect sense. It seems serious and then the twist reveals that he was joking about how Soldier has two pickaxe weapons. It’s subversion of expectations.
Fun fact about the scout, near the end of development, they considered changing the name of the scout to "the blaster" because the name scout kind of implies "no firepower but really fast"
@@Fieldcornguy this is gonna sound fake as fuck but I got to talk to someone who worked on the beta while streaming Team fortress 2 classic. It was really cool to get to speak to a developer about the beginnings of the game and some of the stuff discovered on the cutting room floor
The classifications are :Power, Pick and Support Engineer, medic and pyro are support Demo, Soldier and Heavy are power Scout, Spy and Sniper are pick classes. This video tries to pitch generalist and pick in opposite sides and that makes no sense
Strategy? What is strategy? You just run and shot bad guys, win and repeat (i tryed to make some kind of joke, but im lazy to try imagening and translating it)
@@TopicalHat don't give me too much credit, it took a hot minute for it to click that 2fort's point was not to get the intel, usually, but instead it's like. A deathmatch. we're just supposed to kill each other and actively going for intel just ends the game early if you succeed.
This video is useful but for casual gameplay it doesn't really matter what class you play. Classes like spy are competitively terrible but in a casual environment a good spy can dominate a lobby. Or an Engineer on attack can be extremely useful on payload or attack defence but in a competitive environment sentries are just too easy to focus down.
@@albigalloway4481 I mean, the point of 2Fort is Intel. It's just that it would be more fun to not capture Intel at all because of lack the round timer. I guess valve just didn't expect for players to not blindly do the objective for the sake of winning
I have a system similar to the class menu's "Offense/Defense/Support" three-way classification system, but not exactly the same. Mine are: Front Line (Soldier, Demo, Heavy): High health and constant damage, best for engaging head-on. Glass Cannon (Scout, Sniper, Spy): Low health but very high burst damage, best for hit-and-run and assassination. Support (Pyro, Engineer, Medic): Has a broad, diverse set of roles that are best suited to empowering and assisting their team. There are obviously exceptions and nobody has to play any of them any particular way if they don't want to, but I much prefer my own groupings to the vanilla ones. Scout may not be the best dedicated assassin, but he's still a glass cannon and well-suited to the task should the opportunity arise. He doesn't have the same liberty to choose his targets as the others due to a lack of range or cloaking, but his damage and maneuverability mean he can usually kill somebody he took by surprise and get out alive. EDIT: As far as demoknight is concerned, I'd place that particular playstyle alongside scout's, not really an assassin so much as a hit-and-run flanker.
I generally classified a "power" class as anyone that can do large Splash Damage. IE: Demo and Soldier, with Heavy being the exception due to his great DPS, and pick as anyone that does single target damage, classes that can only attack one guy at a time, which scout falls under. It's rather arbitrary (I did just say that Heavy is a power class even though he does single target damage) but that's where I draw the line between who is pick and who is power.
I say that power classes specialize and damage and face on survivability, like those you mentioned, and pick classes as weak in most scenarios, but able to take the one kill needed most, like spy, but I say that pyros and sniper are zone denial, engie and medic as support, and scout as distraction that can kill people.
I classified pick class as class that avoid fighting (as much as possible) to kill a single (or multiple) high value target because they can't fight head on meanwhile power class is class that can fight head on like demoman, heavy, and soldier. Scout can pick very well with his speed but he's also very effective in head on combat making him a power class. That's why democaber or trolldier is pick class because he's not very strong head on with only pipes to fight (or none at all). While a demoknight isn't necessarily a power class nor pick class... Yeah you can see it's still flawed.
Especially arbitrary when you consider that pyro can outdamage heavy with the dual wielding loadout and has a mix of aoe from flame particles and single target in the panic attack
@@zoruafox7512 The Panic Attack is probably one of the most overrated weapons in the game to be completely honest. Yes, it's very good in casual, but in servers where bullet spread is off, IE Any competitive game or a Uncletopia server, it's a worse shotgun beyond very close range. It's also not like Pyro has a primary that specializes in switch speed and the fact that heavy does 500dps which no one class can beat, including a Phlog Pyro.
Couple of Criticisms. 1.) There is a difference between a "pick" and a "kill". Kill is self explanatory, it's a kill. Picks are focusing down a specific player in order to get a specific result. Example: Killing a medic to deny an Uber, or killing a sniper that is watching a choke point, or ungodly sightlines. A pick is a kill, but not necessarily the other way around. For example your medic jump clip, that was a good, jump and you got a lot of kills, but I wouldn't call them picks. Also, yes, ANY CLASS CAN GET PICKS, they are not necessarily specialized for it like sniper or spy, heavies can get picks too, and no one calls him a pick either. Second, you can follow the Generalist, Specialist system, along with the Pick, Power, Support system. For example, The scout would be a generalist pick class, while a sniper would be a specialist pick class. I can agree that scout is a generalist compared to the speciality of a spy or sniper, but because of the nuances of what weapons a class can use, and how they move, and what roles they can perform, Generalist/Specialist isn't sufficient to describe a character. Next up, a class can apply to multiple catagories, since they might not nicely fit into one. I will describe the roles, then assign each class to what would best fit. Pick: Pick classes are high damage dealers, and excel in 1v1 scenarios where they can use their toolkit to safely confirm a kill, they are expected to make high priority kills that can change the flow of a game, for example Killing a healer, or intercepting a more powerful class before they can threaten the team. Power: Power classes have high HP pools, and high damage outputs and make up the bulk of a push. While they deal out massive damage, they are also expected to take a massive amount of incoming damage as they push or hold the enemy team. Support: Support classes support their team, often in the form of HP and Ammo regen, or through damage mitigation, they keep their team alive longer so they can better manage a push, and ensure they are able to keep up a push longer and more often. Scout: Pick Soldier: Power/Pick (Support depends on banner) Pyro: Pick/Power/Support (Weapon Dependent) Demo: Power Heavy: Power Engineer: Power(Defense)/Support Medic: Support Sniper: Pick Spy: Pick For the scout specifically- The reason why scout is considered a pick class is because his moveset allows him to get in up close and personal, deal massive damage to a target, then use his movement to get out, coming in waves making a pick each time. The reason he isn't considered a Power class is because he cannot take on a large group of enemies head on like Soldier and Heavy can, instead relying on flank routes and mobility to pick off enemies one by one. A skilled scout can kill multiple people in one wave, after all, he has 6 100+ damage shots, and can get 2 or 3 good picks if he plays his cards right, but he cannot singlehandedly stop a push without going in with multiple waves.
I don't really see how he can kill groups of enemies like that, especially when grouped together, he does have the splash damage like Soldier or Demo, nor the ability to mow multiple enemies at once like Pyro or Heavy. His shot simply wouldn't have the DPS to try and reliably kill all of them at once, he would have to take each one on, one at a time. If it's a small group of 2-3 maybe even 4 light classes if he gets a kill with his pistol, then sure I can see that. If it's a push group, (Medic, some power class, and someone else providing fire) he will need to go in and out to pick off who he can, if he's lucky he might be able to pick one of before running to get health, then coming back. The situation would likely be similar with light classes, scout and engineer providing the biggest challenge, but they wouldn't be considered a push group. The only feasible way I can see a scout killing a push group in one wave reliably, would be with the assistance of a Medic. Not saying he isn't a powerful class, he can definitely delay or initiate a push if he kills the medic or defending power class. But on his own, he cannot reliably take on a push on his own, we would have to resort to hit and run, making picks for the team to rely on.
who needs high hp when you literally can't be hit in the first place. why are all of these comments assuming you're gonna be taking a shit ton of damage on scout? any even competent scout can avoid damage well enough that low health doesn't matter outside of guaranteed damage like sentries and fire
I see why people could think scout is a pick class, he’s fast, can be sneaky and quite versatile. I don’t think he is necessarily going to be a pick class all the time (depending on your play style). Imo, he’s a “rush class”, (that’s how I’d use him) to rush the front lines instead of running behind to flank and get a pick.
Personally I see him as a mix of both but for me he leans abit close to the generalist side But then again I am just a projectile loving person who for some reason can't aim hitscan
I’d say he is a skirmisher, while he doesn’t have punch needed to contend with the power classes he does have the tools to pick fights on his terms more reliably than any other class
@@jasondahfolf4325 skirmisher is a pretty good term. his high mobility and close range damage make him excel at short, small fights. in large scale teamfights, however, his fragility and vulnerability to sentries limits what you can do
I personally categorize them like a Punnett Square, kinda. We have the vertical categories, Generalist, Offensive, and Defensive. We have the horizontal categories of Pick, Power, and Support. Scout is the Generalist Pick, since he's useful in any situation and is designed to remove one target at a time. He can't easily deal with large groups like the Power classes, so he's relegated to Pick status. Demoman is the Generalist Power, since his stickybombs are phenomenal at preventing pushes, not to mention their exceptional prowess in wiping out defenses and large crowds. Medic is the Generalist Support. Healing is a valuable asset to any team, and Ubercharge is excellent at both preventing pushes and causing them. Spy is the Offensive Pick. He's great at removing key targets that prevent pushes from being made, but he's also extremely weak, meaning he's basically a glass cannon. Soldier is the Offensive Power, as his ability to rocket jump makes for phenomenal mobility, and the rockets themselves are great for wiping out large groups of people thanks to their splash damage. Yes, Soldier is also good on defense, but he doesn't have stickybombs, now does he? Pyro is the Offensive Support. Technically he's a half-power-half-support class, so I categorized it as "Offensive." He protects his allies from danger, checks for spies, extinguishes burning teammates, and can incinerate small groups with the power of walking forward and holding the attack button. Sniper is the Defensive Pick. Watching over the objective from a distance, he makes for excellent area denial thanks to the overpowered might of his sniper rifle. Heavy is the Defensive Power. His insane amounts of DPS are second to none, and he's a beefy boy who can take a lot of hits. Lastly, Engineer is the Defensive Support. His sentry is the best area denial tool in the game, and his dispenser is a reliable source of healing, not to mention he has a teleporter which can take his teammates to the front lines faster than you can say "YEEHAW."
I think scout is counted as a pick class because of his lack of group damage. Generally pick classes are to kill a specific target. Scout does that because he has speed for getting the target but only has hitscans weapons to deal damage. But I totally agree with you about your points.
Even then, Scout is effective at dealing with groups of enemies. A good scout can defend a point, capture points, pick, and kill groups of enemies clamped together.
@@SyRose901 Unless the enemy team has 0 awareness and can't aim, you should be able to take down a Scout no matter how good he is, or at least make him retreat. Not being able to take down a Scout as a group is pathetic
The TF2 trinity is Pick, Power, and Support. But the game has hybrids. Supports are Medic and Engie. Medic for obvious reasons, and Engie because Sentry holds a position, teleporter gets his team to the position, and dispenser keeps them from spawn in the first place. Heavy and Demo are the power classes. Catch them with their pants down and they're not so bad, but when theyhave the advantage they can capitalize. As mentioned in the video, Sniper and Spy are pick classes. I dont need to go over them again. Pyro is the one Power/Support hybrid. He isn't quite as strong an advantage pusher but can still do that, and his airblast is such a strong support tool. Whether dealing with afterburn for his team, keeping explosives away, shutting down an uber. Not to mention hes the guy who shuts down spies. I'd call Soldier a Pick/Power hybrid. And the difference is, is he using rocket jump? If not, well you'll notice new players who cant do it well have to play him like a power class. And you'll also notice all the clips in this video showing off his picks are him doing that. That's because hes trading on his health pool to go for a specific target. Something he cant really do without that trade. The best Soldiers know when to play like a pick and know when to play like a power. So where does Scout fit? He's not a support, can we agree on that? I know hes got mad milk, but come on. Is he a power class? I mean, he can definitely do the "push the advantage" thing, in that he can use his maneuverability to effectively isolate people and win duels. But... replace the word maneuverability with stealth and isn't that what spy does? Have three people walk around a corner into a revved Heavy or a Pyro or a sticky trap, and that fight is already over. Have three people walk around a corner into a spy or sniper, and that pick class is dead. Which one does Scout fit into? Yeah. Scout is a pick class.
It's unfair how damn underrated you are. You bring up both pros and cons- not only the worst parts. And sometimes even a suggestion to make it better. Please never change into a douchetuber or something.
I don’t think you should define a pick class as “a class who is capable of getting picks” because then, like you said, that applies to everyone. I think it’s better to classify pick classes as “classes whose core mechanics, weaponry and capabilities are better suited to taking out single targets than taking on groups”. By this logic, Spy, Sniper and Scout are pick classes since at their core they specialise in killing a single target, but have a hard time taking on groups. Classes like Soldier, Heavy, Demo and Pyro aren’t pick classes because, whilst they can still output tremendous damage against a single target, also excel at combatting large groups of enemies. They don’t rely heavily on accuracy, and can easily hit multiple targets at the same time with very little loss in damage overall, which is what sets them apart from pick classes. Medic can be played as a pick class, like you demonstrated, but this is not what his core mechanics are geared towards. Engineer is also not a pick class as he can hold off multiple opponents at once with the help of his sentry.
Scout may have been designed to be a pick class by your description and this video, but he can do just about everything. Sniper and Spy cannot do more than picking.
@@SyRose901 a high level sniper could run around on the frontlines and quick scope people before they can even react, and a gun spy could probably take on 2 or 3 people at once if he was at mid range and was confident in his aim. Scout CAN do more than get picks, but his class is designed for it.
I’d go so far as to say Scout and Heavy are more alike eachother than the former is to Sniper/Spy, or the latter is to Soldier/Demo. Both are capable of dealing immense damage to groups of enemies, but because of the nature of their single target fighting style, as well as the balance of their health and mobility, it’s more accurate to say they can handle groups in detail, dominating targets one by one, rather than getting overwhelmed by all of them at once.
So much wrong with this, but the funniest moment was when he said scout could be just as much a power class as demo/soldier over footage of him failing to kill a sentry being built, point blank, for several seconds.
I'd say you should've at least mention the sapper on spy, even though he isnt the best at destroying nests (since demo and direct hit soldier are tenfold better), the ability to hinder with the enemy dispensers and teleporters is a job he does best
you barely went into *why* scout isnt a pick class, 80% of this video was just explaining what a class role is, and then just slapped the labels "specialist" and "generalist" and said "scout CANT be a pick class because hes also a generalist class", which doesnt really mean anything.
@@MB32904 Nit being designed to deal with crowds doesn’t make you a pick class it just means you’re better suited to small fights (pick class goal is to kill a few important people and die. scout can actively decide which fights he does and does not start, making him much more strategically involved in the entire other team than just one class (in short, you clearly don’t play scout)
Sniper and Spy are traditional pick classes. They were seen as a sacrifice, where a traditional role was swapped out in order to get a "pick" [on the enemy Medic] in order to turn the tide of the fight. However - *roaming* Scouts and Soldiers were sometimes referred to as "pick classes", because those roles were often used to get a pick or force an uber before the next big play. Source: I have watched competitive (since TF2 comp started streaming), shout-casted/commentated matches, and produced/directed several esports TF2 casts (over 4 years), and I used to be an admin for one of the biggest Highlander leagues in NA and EU. Valve has even used some of my competitive promotional material in their blogs to promote tournaments.
Favorite map to play cleanup Scout on has gotta be Upward defense, last point. All the staircases and side hallways make it so easy to surprise attackers and even easier to get away if it doesn't look good.
Yeah. Soldier and Demo both have splash damage. Scout if you think about it is just really fast at picking multiple people but he can’t get them all at once.
@@chitosetakaki9385 Both Soldier amd Scout have a HUGE mobility option and 1-2 shot capability. Give a soldier some time and the right tools and he can become a pick-class with the market gardener. I mean, a comp sub-class "roamer" is made exactly for that - watching flanks and eventually flanking the enemy to pick off weak high value targets, like medics, snipers, or just kill an enemy quickly and optionally dip outta the warzone
@@badluck7286 true I don't really know much about como tbh I prefer casual All I know about the roamer is from lazy purples soldier vid but thanks for the explanation tho
These terms really only work in TF2 competitively due to 6v6 being so different from 12v12 generalist and specialist are terms that are so used due to the main 6v6 mode being 5cp where you constantly switch from attack to defend but let's say in payload bad water basin( the like only 6v6 comp map that's payload) you could run a heavy on defense and he could do all the things you need. Also I'm assuming the medic part is a joke because he's definitely not a pick or power it's just not viable for him to have a soldier rocket jump him in. Also soldier is generally a power class due to his splash damage letting him do more damage than that of a scout when there are multiple enemies but the roamer(the roaming soldier) is a pick class as he is played for picks like the scout. The scout is also considered a pick class due to his lack of ability to take out a group of coordinated people on a point by himself while a soldier would have a higher chance. Also if you're really good at sniper he can go from a pick to a power real quick.
It still annoys me when people label Scout as a generalist when he so obviously isn't. Scout being a generalist is pure 6s talk where in the specalized gamemode of 6s, all of Scout's strengths get played to and he doesn't have to worry about any of his weaknesses which makes him great in any situation (in 6s). In TF2 as a whole? Yeah play Scout on Dustbowl. REALLY strong class there. Play him on Red Payload, oh yeah real threat to Blu. Play him into any situation where he has multiple defensive classes he has to push into and watch as he fails to make any kind of impact whatsoever. The Heavy is more generalist than the Scout is, shown by the fact that if he's allowed to have SNIPER MOVESPEED, not even remotely fast, and ONLY during rollouts, in a mobility meta gamemode? He now becomes a meta 6s class hence why every possible item like buffalo steak or whip is banned on him in 6s and he frequently has a more important roll than Scout in highlander.
A couple criticisms on this video; 1 - I fundamentally disagree with the notion that scout is not a pick class. even though he has items and playstyles that might lean towards support or other things, scout's fundamental purpose is to flank and/or get important kills, hence the term "pick". With practically any scout loadout, no serious scout player would not be going for these picks. Scout cannot take much damage, and his scattergun is only viable for one target at a time. And the argument that medic, engineer, heavy, etc. can also get "picks", therefore scout is not a pick class is pretty disingenuous, because of course they can get a kill. what makes scout a pick class is that he can (PICK) what class he wants to kill by using his speed, just like how sniper and spy can (PICK) who they want to kill with their toolsets. his versatility is irrelevant when his main purpose is to get picks. 2 - the video takes very long to get to the point, I was anticipating when you would properly explain why scout is not a pick class for the whole video and you only really adress it at like the 3/4 of the video. And you also don't really ever give any hard evidence, only circumstantial. Most of this video isn't even about the scout, its just talking about how other classes can get picks, "generalists/specialists", and other things. Talking about how generalists and specialists is the "proper" way to categorize classes in this video is pretty irrelevant and misleading considering the title too, calling someone a pick class is absolutely a reasonable way to categorize a class. and I also think that talking about other games' balance with tanks dps and healers was completely irrelevant to the video. I really like your vids though, keep it up.
it's all about how you play it. for me, scout is 100% a pick class. i flank, find enemies i know i can kill safely (sniper, medic), rotate around, repeat.
Scout does have pick class-like weapons like the now nerfed Baby Face's Blaster and more, and to be honest with Scout's speed he will win every single 1v1 if he doesn't beef every one of his shots or he isn't up against anything that can be defined as the bane of his existence. So yeah, technically Scout can be defined as a pick class the same way a Soldier is a power class without Rocket Jumping. In that the higher skilled Scouts can kill or chip away at many different enemies. Market Gardener using Soldiers and Demoknights are pick subclasses, just like Spy. Pyro, Heavy, and Medic are not Spy or Sniper. Scout can be like Spy, but where Spy has the perfect tools to foil the enemy defenses, he just needs to expertly apply them, Scout doesn't. All he has are guns, tools and other miscellaneous stuff that weren't meant to be weapons and questionable liquids, which can effectively do Spy's job supportively, but if you want to be aggressive, especially against a Pyro that is lighting everything on fire, a Heavy that is aware of you, and/or an Engineer just nesting or being combative, your just going to either have to pick off whoever leave their effective range, hope they run out of ammo and metal and stuff, or they just straight up can't hit you, then you will need to be a pick class. Also, Pyro has been a generalist since Jungle Inferno gave him his Dragon's Fury. Now he can protect, he can attack, and he can Jet Pack Back Attack! Heavy does have the potential of being a generalist class, he just needs that Heavy Update. Engineer can be defensive anywhere. He can defend an ally or enemy point from the enemy.
Even if your "Generalist" and "Specialist" categorizations are correct, doesn't mean they're helpful. The reason the "pick, power and support" classification was made is to help group a team easily; You're new system cannot be used in this situation.
I disagree (kinda), uncle Danes chart is a lot better at describing this. The scout is a pick generalist who can be good at a lot of things, but excellent at single kills. Heavy is a power class because while he is good at single kills, he can wipe a team in a instant if your not careful, scout sniper and spy just cant to that. Thats what makes them pick classes. pyro is a support power hybrid as unlocks like the dragons or the phlog can turn him to a team wiping menace but air blast, the home wrecker, and what the gas passer should be make him a support class. Idk ignore my stupid rant.
I’d say Pyro really bridges the gap between specialist and generalist. Sure she’s a bit better on defense, but he can be a great choice on neutral and offense due to both the support and ability to pump out a ton of damage in close quarters.
I want to start by saying I hope you take my words as constructive, as I see you have the passion and drive for making content, however I personally did not really enjoy this video very much. I feel like all you did was shift from one, more precise categorization to a broad one, and one that muddies the general idea of a class. I feel like that's the big key element you missed; pick, power and support are not meant to define the classes as to what they will always do, but rather what they probably should be doing, or what they are designed for. You made it a point yourself that anyone CAN pick, but I feel like you didn't address whether or not they should. Yeah, Soldier can sacrifice a shit ton of health, bomb in, and die... but Soldier can also be on front lines dealing with other classes trying to push through. Medic can get picks, but Medic would be far better off actually healing the team. Scout CAN power through, but I've gone on revolver rampages myself and I don't think either of us are insane enough to call Spy a power class, or an offensive force by any means. Pick, Power, and Support allow players, specifically new players, have an understanding of what their classes could and should be doing as opposed to other things. If I told my friends who are new to tf2 that "yeah, scout is good in all situations" and I see them running straight into an armada of americans and getting their dicks blown off, that would be on me for not explaining the strengths of Scout. He's flimsy and can burst high damage at single targets, that's where he's performing best, therefore, I and many others would consider Scout a pick class; Scout works best when he's getting picks, this is easy to understand for a player and this more strict idea allows to better guide choices for players who may not be able to read the situation as well as a veteran or comp player. And that's what I feel my main issue is, I feel like you're trying to set aside a system that works for casual players to understand in favour of a system used by comp players. Here's the thing: Power, Pick, and Support does not contradict Generalists and Specialists. They can coexist and be used to define characters in different ways. This point bothers me most because of your generally hostile attitude (your wording comes off as "Scout isn't a pick class you dumb twat stop saying that call him a generalist") towards the idea of pick, power and support. You claim that Pick Power Support detracts from Scout as a class, yet you would then carry on to detail specialists as only all that useful in special situations, that they can't perform very well at all in general situations, calling spy so much as dead weight (which may be true in comp 6s, but you show gameplay from casual and don't specify whether or not you're referring to competitive, which leads me to believe that you're speaking of the game generally.) That, if anything, is detractive. Contrary to calling Scout pick, which suggest that his greatest strengths lie in his ability to sneak behind enemy lines with his mobility and take out classes behind front lines out of reach from the power classes or before they're even a problem with his high burst damage. Like you said, everyone can pick off like scout or spy, but medic can mow down an enemy team like a soldier or demo. Doesn't inherently suggest it's their best play. Aside from the general point which I disagree with and don't really feel convinced at all on, there were a lot of other mistakes that feel like they could have been caught in a second draft. Scout himself is used as a scapegoat almost, yet the video itself barely brushes on why scout isn't a pick class. The video could use a more direct or clear title rather than a roundabout one that kinda just makes you come off as a scout main upset that people are claiming other people can do what your class does (while going on to claim spies are dead weight... like cmon man you sound so elitist saying that..) There was the point where you claimed World of Warcraft pioneered the idea of class/character categories which.... no???? Final Fantasy?? Dungeons and Dragons?? Like if you claim it pioneered doing that for multiplayer PvP games maybe I guess but you never specified that (again, might have been caught upon a redraft/review of your script). I don't mean to come off as antagonistic or destructive, but I don't think this video was very well thought out.
Pyro isn't defensively oriented. He is a jack of all trades. He can be a damage dealer using his airblast and high damage crit flares. He can be a flanker with he backburner and the detonator. Sure scout is fast, but his movement is a bit conventional. Pyro can fly in multiple different ways. He can be a support class, guarding the basically anything, removing sappers, and vaporizing spies. Pyro can also equip the dragons fury and the pocket medic and use good aim to absolutely destroy anyone and everyone on the enemy team. He can do everything. And that includes picking a generalist loadout to switch between these roles, though he isn't nearly as effective at it as someone like soldier.
The main argument for scout being a pick class isnt that its the only thing he can do, but that he can do it much better than other generalists without really changing his play-style. For a solder to be a pick class, he either changes his load out entirely or accepts that he’s going to die eveytime. Scout doesnt have to do that to get picks. his stock loadout and flank heavy play style means that he is already in a position to get in, get a pick, get out, and live. I feel like the real issue is the idea that a class cant be half and half of two types. Sniper is a good example of this in my opinion. He definitely is a pick class, but at a certain skill level, a sniper can be oppressive enough to become a generalist. I wouldn’t consider sniper a power class, but i think its fair to say that their are definitely some players out there that have the aim to make him both a generalist and a pick class. Applying this logic to scout, he would probably be a generalist/pick class similar to sniper. Which considering how many sniper mains i see also main scout and vice versa, feels right
I have about 20 minutes of playtime in TF2. That being said, as someone with an appreciation of game design and people who understand it, your videos are ENTHRALLING to watch. The way you actually look closely at how the game works and how players interact with it never fails to hold my attention throughout the entire video.
There is only 1 generalist class, the soldier. All others have conditions under which they are actually unusable, rare as they may be. There is only 1 specialist class, the spy. All others can be used in more than one scenario, and have a large variety in their playstyles. There are three power classes: demoman, soldier, heavy. There are three pick classes: sniper, scout, spy. There are three support classes: medic, engineer, pyro. A power class is a class that is most effective on the front line. In high skill environments, their KDR will be above 1, but struggle to get careful medics, snipers and demos. Soldier *can* get picks, but has a far lower chance of surviving afterwards than sniper, scout or spy - and has an alternative that is superior. A pick class is a class that is most effective at getting around the front line to eliminate a few key targets. In high skill environments, their KDR will be below 1, but usually very important kills. Scout will *never* have a KDR above 1 against equally skilled opponents, and must make up for that with good picks - which is not hard to do. A support class is a class whose effectiveness is limited by the skill of your teammates. Yes, that includes pyro. Afterburn, airblast and flares all provide utility to the team beyond damage, that must be followed up with proper kills. A pyro going for solo kills will find his class woefully underpowered. There are three classes of high priority, to kill: medic, sniper and demoman. There are three classes of low priority, to select: heavy, spy and pyro. There are three classes of medium priority, therefore: soldier, scout and engineer. Considering how few items and circumstances actually bypass these rules, they are the most accurate classification in terms of "what should I do with this," 90% of the time. EDIT: You will notice there is one of each category in every priority bracket. This division is pretty *and* practical!
I personally classify the weapons in the 3 categories instead of the classes themselves. For instance, Bonk! Atomic punch is tank, while crit a cola is attack. And you could also classify attack weapons into 2 different catatories. Like the force a nature is leaning towards pick, while base scattergun is leaning the other way.
Sniper and spy really aren't "DPS" classes. They're burst damage classes as opposed to sustain damage classes. You get big bursts of damage but can't keep the damage going due to a slow fire rate or time between backstabs. Soldier is also a burst damage class with more potential for DPS. Stuff like pyro and heavy get better DPS as they're able to continuously apply damage with no delay.
They're not "Dps" classes in the sense that their damage per second is high, they're dps classes in the world of warcraft sense. Basically "dps" was just a synonym for "deals damage"
nice video! i think you did a great job at explaining the differences between generalist and specialist classes while also giving a helpful definition of what it really means to be a pick class. I do have an issue with this video though, it seems like you're describing generalist vs specialist classes in a way that is most accurate for 6v6 competitive play and not pubs. Your points about the strengths and weakness of classes are undoubtedly correct, they just seem exaggerated when youre applying the 6v6 meta to pubs. If youre playing 12v12 badwater, heavy and sniper are pretty damn generally applicable classes, but playing those classes on snakewater in your etf2l/rgl match is only a good idea in certain situations. I get the impression that you're trying to use the competitive experience you have to educate the masses on how tf2 works, which I really appreciate as someone who believes pubbers could learn a lot from competitive play, but i think you need to keep in mind that not everything translates 1:1.
It's actually insane how little subscribers you have compared to your insanely high-quality videos. Keep it up man, im sure you will grow incredibly quickly if you keep making this content!
I disagree, scout is not a generalist, he is a duelist. Scout thrives in 1v1 combat. That's a very specific environment. The only reason why he is used in 6es is because of his mobility. The ability to quickly engage and disengage is a key in that environment. Soldier and Demo are the only generalists in the game. Medic is a specialist, a support, a fragile glass cheerleader that makes any team do 10x better than without him. Engineer is an area denial and basic support specialist. An anchor that is a big fuck you to an enemy team. Heavy is also an anchor and area denial specialist but on a different level. He doesn't chase the frontline. He is the frontline. Anything that is Infront of him is the noman's land. In 6es the meta is mobile warfare. Blitzkrieg for all of you Medic mains. Where immobile specialist and other such classes struggle. That's why all the comp players have that misconception about what is and what isn't generalist vs specialist. But that meta is the result of the map selection. If the map rotation included plr, ctf, or any other possible symmetrical gamemodes, than we would see different meta develope for each gamemode. But that would also be requiring reforming some of those modes or making better maps for them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
6s does have some KotH and sniper at least sees a lot more use there. But the reason KotH 6s matches are so rare and why stopwatch matches aren't in 6s at all is because 6s exists primarily to cater to the movement-oriented side of TF2.
I agree with your notion that a class being able to get picks does not necessarily make it a pick class. However, I do disagree with Scout being in the same category as Soldier or Demoman, who can be considered power classes due to their consistently high splash damage. They are great both offensively and defensively because they can hit multiple targets at once, only suffer negligible damage drop-off with distance, and have 200 and 175 health respectively to boot. They are built to be out there on the frontlines in both offensive and defensive scenarios. Scout, on the other hand, can only focus on one enemy at a time, needs to be close to the opponent before his damage reaches any impactful numbers, and runs around with a meager 125 HP. Alone, against any reasonably skilled power class, he would be at a considerable disadvantage. He can be powerful, but thrives especially when the enemy is distracted -- in a certain sense, not unlike Spy -- though I would naturally agree to place Spy in a different category due to his full dependency on it to function. Almost all clips in the video show Scout being effective when 1. enemies have their backs turned towards him, or 2. other friendly power classes (such as Soldiers) are there with him to draw the attention away. Do I think Scout is a generalist? Yes, but with a caveat; because the element of surprise is more important for him than for other generalists, which is reliably achievable in offensive situations but much, much harder on the defense. But that's just my two cents, haha. Very nice analysis, and I really enjoyed watching it! It's a very interesting topic to think on! :)
Yeah, you have not an ounce of knowledge when it comes to power/pick/support. Power can take out groups, Pick takes out singular targets, and Support assists their team through stuff like healing and buildings, and in Spy’s case, intel and chaos. Soldier is a hybrid, like Spy, who can do good in the Pick role (Bombing/Gardening and Knife) while also doing good in their other role of Power and Support (splash damage rockets and intel/paranoia, respectively). Scout, however, is a 100% pick class because his base play style has no Support items, requiring Mad Milk to make him a hybrid Pick/Support, and he simply doesn’t have the rapid fire DPS nor the sustainability of a true Power Class. Scout is defined by his ability to skirmish with singular enemies and having the speed to escape when he’s put into an encounter against multiple enemies where a Power class would actually stand a chance, because remember, he’s got 125 health and not a lot of options to help that other than running away. Yet somehow you seem to be completely ignorant of all this.
@@АртёмТор-к2юThey can’t if everyone is equal skill but that’s not the idea. There would be other classes at the frontlines additionally, the Soldier would just have to be lucky enough to get them to bunch up.
I mean, the thumbnail just answered the question the title asks. There was no reason to click on this if the question was answered. Yet. I still clicked.
This video is great for those dont understand the composition and its importance in TF2 (MvM and Ranked especially) When you choose Sniper or Spy, your team is essentially fighting 1 man short. If you fail to accomplish what your class is made for majority of the time, your absence will be felt. In case of Soldier and Demo for contrast, even if you are a terrible player you will be able to benefit the team in more ways than one. Whether its intentional or not.
I definitely like the generalist, specialist dichotomy, but Im not entirely on board with throwing out the idea of a pick class entirely. I think it could be most easily defined into, power, pick, and support, and each class can do a little of everything, but their competency varies. Scout is primarily pick imo, because he's at his best at the same time the other pick classes are at their best, when the enemy team is unaware of him, and just like spy or pyro, when hes utilizing flank routes. You may say, "well anyone can use flank routes, pyro and demo do it all the time" and you'd be correct, but I believe that spy and scout get the most value out of these approach options BECAUSE their goal is gaining information, and taking out one or two high value targets before either escaping or biting it. And that's something that any class CAN do yes, but almost no other class is AS ADEPT at doing it. I liked your compilation of medic picks though that was exceedingly based
The generalist specialist system is just a way to classify whether or not classes can adapt to situations well or not. the term pick class can still be applied just the same regardless. Also, whether or not scout is best at something and not best at something else is a whole other argument, but htwo stated that the point behind a pick class is that the class is good for specifically getting picks and not much else.
He’s a pick class. He is best against one enemy, and while the enemy is focused on something else. He is basically spy but fast and Boston. The scattergun, pistol, and melee all specialize against single target DPS, and the only thing breaking this role is the mad milk. But even so it can be used for pick and support.
The heavy is single target, as is the engineer, but I'm not really sure what that has to do with them being pick classes. The scouts unlocks enable so many different playstyles that putting him in this one box with this one playstyle in mind makes little sense to me. Mad Milk makes him a crazy duelist that can 1 v 1 any class in the game and tank their damage. He has weapons designed for sneaky pick gameplay, but he also has weapons designed for 1v3 fights, and he pairs very well with a medic, pocket scout is insanely powerful. Single target =/= pick class
@@htwo1 I am not too experienced with each type of class. I think the reason I think of scout as a pickclass is because of my play style. I use the BFB along with the cleaver and bauble, I attack or kill someone and run away just to do it again. Of course most people don’t use my stupid play style, but a lot of scouts do play similar to this. I guess scout is more of a jack of all trades fully depending on how the user plays him. So yeah I guess he is a generalist that has a bit of edge on pick.
"You can only pick spy when you're confident the enemy won't see it comming." -Htwo 10:11 Meanwhile me, tryharding with dr, amby and kunai getting a 52 ks on upward like i'm swipez or some shit
I would say the unique things that defines pick classes are that they are able to kill high value targets "reliably". Scouts will usually run into multiple problems when chasing a single target when the opposing team is guarding said target. Plus a single sentry is able to deny scouts from entering enemy territory in the first place
Spy can also run into a variety of problems when trying to pick a target, if you watched htwo's other pick class video it explains a bit more how sniper can reliably kill enemies without any danger but spies have to be much more engaged in order to play successfully.
@@hipposeducer28 Yeah spies effectiveness falls off when the opposing team is coordinating but If a spy is willing to pick off lets say a sniper that is hindering their team, most of the times a spy will be able to eliminate them better than a scout could because spy's arsenal supports the general idea of spy targeting important picks
A "pick class" isn't a class that's only good for assassination OR a class that gets kills ( *nobody* believes that "a pick class is a class that gets picks" and you know that) . Scout excels when fighting isolated targets and has the ability to pick his fights due to his high speed, spy has the same but due to his invisibility and sniper ditto but due to his range. Scout is crap at dishing generalized damage and closing off areas like power classes are great at. He's _vastly_ superior when fighting 1v1s and he has the ability to choose his fights and has to do so to be effective . That's why people call him a pick class. Your video is either based on a strawman or you didn't know the term's definition before making an essay about it
And a generalist doesn't mean damage numbers for groups generalists means they can fit almost any situation Scout fits that heavies can be melted if the scout is good enough Soldiers can be dodged and killed Demos can blow themselves up by accident Engi requires a sentry to stand a chance unless he has good aim Pyro can be countered by range,mad milk and just good movement skills Scout can do good damage to groups if he plays his cards right He can even destroy sentries sometimes by peaking behind walls and chipping away at it He can escape alot of situations due to his speed and jump And he can heal his teammates and himself with mad milk Also saying a pick class is supposed to get picks is litteraly the same thing as assassinations just with a different word And also who gives a fuck about scientific definitions of a term its pretty obvious by its fucking names Your comment is either based on a twitter account or you didn't try talking about the generalist side of things before making a essay about it
@@chitosetakaki9385 I wasn't even talking about generalists and specialists, I was talking about power classes and pick classes. There is NO need to talk about generalist classes when you're talking about scout's natural inclination torwards being a pick class. Scout is not a power class and not a support class, he's a pick class. I wasn't debating playstyles either, it's about the inherit strengths of the class and the natural optimal strategy that results from them. Fighting at the frontline, holding chokepoints, area denying, generalized damage dealing and gaining ground for his team to advance are not abilities inherent to scout's kit or the strategy that comes naturally from it. I am *not* saying these tactics are impossible to do as scout. You can play heavy as a pick class, play engineer as an offense class and play pyro as if he was a good class. Your playstyle doesn't change the classes inherent strengths and weaknesses. I'm not debating your playstyle or what the classes CAN or CAN'T do. Spy and sniper are pick classes because they naturally excel and are most effective at single target elimination NOT because the only thing they're good for is single target elimination (as this video implies the definition of pick class is). That's like saying that since Soldier is a power class, he's completely unable at eliminating isolated key targets in 1v1s and avoiding undesired battles. Spy and Sniper are specialist classes AND pick classes. Scout is a generalist class AND a pick class. There's no proof that he can't be both. (Yes spy and sniper are unable to act as power classes, given their design. But that's not why they're called pick classes. No one is arguing that soldier isn't a projectile class because he has a shotgun). P.S: I do not have a Twitter account, you accusing me of that makes zero sense.
scout is exactly that: a scout. someone you send out to gather information and secure flanks. he's just armef with his legs and enough firepower to get himself out of any 1v1
Here's my take on the TF2 classes being put in categories (This is based on my experiences): Scout - Aggressive Soldier - General Pyro - Offensive Support Demo - General Offence Heavy - General Defence Engie - Defencive Support Medic - General Support Sniper - Passive Pick Spy - Aggressive Pick General - Does whatever, can be put on Offence or Defence Defencive - Usually does better on Defence Offencive - Usually does better on Offence Passive - Usually doesn't get into intense combat Aggressive - Usually pushes into the enemy (Loud OR Queit) (This doesn't even get into the sub-classes, and change how they change the general roll of the class [e.g. Tomislav Heavy - Aggressive Heavy, Gunspy - Passive Spy].)
“scout is a generalist” crowd be real quiet when theres a sentry on the map engineer alone can make nobody ever pick scout for the rest of the game. everything you said about sniper being forced to wait for somebody else to push for you applies for scout as well if sentries never existed, id agree with you. but in defensive situations, an engineer is guaranteed to be there, and scout will become far too situational to run at that point
There are very few maps, or sentry spots, that prevent you from playing scout entirely. The sentry will cover big chunks of the point, but there will always be a flank to get in on, and there will always be places for the scout to be to deal damage. Think of upward last, for example. The scout has all of the buildings, as well as all of the underneath of the point, to run around in and do his thing. He just can't get to the point itself until an uber kills the gun. Sentries are one of scouts weaknesses, sure, but the other generalists also have weaknesses too.
@@htwo1 And what will he accomplish in these flank routes? People are huddled around the objective, like the payload in upward, and there’s very little reason for any snipers and especially medics to be hanging around them. The only place I can think of is in upward last, where a Red scout can easily pick off any snipers hanging around the chokepoint, but thats still assuming there isnt any Blu engineers that commonly set up around that choke, let alone other blu teammates. scout is pretty much forced to just pick off any scraps that happen to walk by in flanks. And because these routes are often claustrophobic, scout doesnt get to take advantage of his mobility and there’s a realistic chance that he’ll just die to anyone around these routes. This is a far cry from the other generalists like Soldier, Demo, and medic who can accomplish feats like wiping out teams, taking out buildings, watching flank routes, and capturing objectives, and they can switch between these priorities at a dimes notice. Scout can only do all those things without sentries present, he simply doesnt have the tools and health to destroy them. A scout with sentries present and a scout where there isnt are two completely different playstyles, its genuinely shocking to see how much they restrict him.
@@itsasecrettoevery1 This just ends up not being true in practice. A team that just huddles aimlessly on the objective is a team who dies to spam for free. Teams hold these side routes because if they dont they lose the game. Scout can have a very good time getting in on these flank routes and trying to kill the enemies that are holding them. He's more limited than the other generalists in this one scenario, but that again doesn't mean he isn't a generalist. Soldiers and demos are much more limited against pyros, but you wouldnt say this one matchup makes them suddenly not specialists would you?
Somehow there's still no consensus in the community on what a "class role" is [other than the universal agreement that pyro is "support"], so I'm going to toss in my completely subjective definition of class roles: While versatile classes like the soldier and demo can realistically take on any role with ease, their options become very limited once they're at the frontlines and have dedicated that life to the role they've chosen. If a soldier chooses the direct hit and the battalion's back up to build the 600 damage meter as soon as possible and make a push, they'll have a much harder time playing a proper "power class" role compared to a soldier using, for example, the stock rocket launcher and the concheror. So, based on not just your class, but your weapon choice and plan of action for your current life, you fall into 1 of 4 categories: Power, Pick, Support and Hybrid, meaning you can either absorb and/or deal lots of damage over time, quickly kill important classes, provide buffs and protection for your team, or a combination of the 3. *If you have a large amount of health and/or firepower, you're a power class.* Your role is to drag in attention, keep pressure on the enemy team, and be at the forefront of pushes. Power classes can be independent, but are vastly more efficient when fighting alongside teammates, since the distraction they create while at the frontline opens up a large window to make a push. Heavy, soldier, demo, and sometimes Pyro fall into this by default, but gunslinger engi is also a reliable power class if they know what they're doing. Most times they even end up outperforming the former 4 due to the sheer pressure mini sentries put on the enemy team. *If you have low health and/or a single shot weapon, you're a pick class.* Your main priority is taking out the most impactful classes on the enemy team, such as heavies, medics and engineers. If you manage to get behind enemy lines, make sure to warn your teammates of incoming pushes or enemy pick classes before fighting them head-on to ensure that they are aware of the threat and on the lookout in the event that you fail to kill said threat. Scout, spy and sniper obviously fall into this, but a soldier can make a great pick class in a pinch if they can rocket jump behind enemy lines. Most pick classes aside from the first 3 mentioned are typically hybrids between pick and power, such as demoknight, fat scout, or the aforementioned soldier. *If your game impact is at its highest while behind or alongside your teammates, you're a support class.* Your role is to protect your teammates from classes of any type [especially spies] and to assist them in pushes, while holding off the enemy team during downtime. As a support class, you'll want to stay relatively close to the frontlines, but fight alongside at least 1 or 2 teammates if you're going to be entering the enemy's line of fire, due to support classes almost always having either low health or limited damage options. Sniper, medic and engineer obviously fall into this category, and pyros work best alongside teammates, but banner soldiers, sticky demos and unconventional heavy loadouts [ie brass beast, dalokohs bar, etc] not only excel but _massively outperform_ their default counterparts when coordinated with their team. Yes, _all classes_ work better when coordinated, but you have to admit that those 3 fuckers turn the game on their heads when their team backs them up properly. *If your class falls into more or less than 1 of these categories, you're a hybrid class.* Your role varies massively, but you'll likely either be making semi-important picks or pressuring the enemy team. If you're a hybrid class, you should be actively trying to fight alongside either a fellow hybrid, a support, or a power class at all times. You're always allowed to go do your own thing, but a distraction and a healer can't work if there's nobody to heal or take the attention from. All 9 classes can make a solid hybrid class. Spy, by these definitions, is a hybrid of pick and support because of his sapper, and engineer is literally every class type at once no matter what loadout you choose. As a hybrid class, the best thing you can do is help your team. Protect your engineers and medics of course, but also make sure that your power classes have ample support, and no enemy pick classes make it behind your team. A player's actual choices in game is what dictates their role more than their class and weapon choice, though. A scout is a great pick class by default, but you can also very easily take down power classes and make a very good uber target. A heavy on the other hand is almost always either a power or support class, but even if you're not playing as a fat scout, heavies can find opportunities to flank and push back the enemy team or make important picks.
Problem with this is that scout plays like spy (flanking) to get a specific target (sniper or med) and can only focus one enemy at a time like sniper or spy because they have only single shot high accuracy weapons that can only hit one person. He also has tools to be a better pick class (though some are trash) like the back scatter that (tried) made him better at picking.
The point made in the video was that scout isn't only good for picking, he's generally good for dealing dps. He can be perfectly successful at picking players, but unlike spy and sniper he isn't limited to playing picks. (huntsman is an exception, but its a subclass so I really wouldn't say it counts)
@@hipposeducer28 didn't you just say that scout was just a good pick class and most players especially veterans know that scout is a pick class, I'm choosing to listen to players who have played for years than a random guy I never heard of until this video
Scout is a pick class not because he kills, but because he has pretty much no AOE damage. Unlike solder or demo are based on it(excluding subclasses). Sniper can't headshot in a radius, and spy doesn't have explosive backstab. Also, heavy is a bit more versatile than you think. And battlengie exists.
I think the problem is even in your attempt to define it you sort of end up making points that are only true depending on loadout, especially for pyro. Sure pyro can have lacking damage, but if you use the dragon's fury you're not really hurting for burst damage at all. Same goes for their mobility based on if you use the detonator/thermal thruster. Equally it is hard to argue that classes like engineer are less effective on offense when it can be very effective to use teleporters/mini sentries to secure the progress your team has made so far to avoid being pushed back. I think it is probably most helpful to A: split by loadout (including weirder stuff like syringe gun-focused medic, shotgun focused heavy or gun focused spy) and then B: Determine how many of said loadout you'd want on a team. I think most teams would benefit quite well from more soldiers/demomen in most scenarions, but that would not be true of market gardeners or demoknights. Equally a mobility focused dragons fury pyro is probably a lot more spammable than something like a combo pyro or one focusing on team support with airblast.
I do agree with everything in this video, and I think that scout being considered a pick class is just cause pick classes are way more fun. Spy is a good example cause there's obviously the thought that you shouldn't be alive, you're outsmarting the opponent and you're being a good spy main because you can infiltrate these idiots and get that one heavenly backstab on the medic and potentially chainstab, though sniper is a much better example. Excelling in single target elimination, the only gameplay with casual sniper and some of competitive sniper is just standing in one place clicking heads, and yet it's still so much more enjoyable to sniper mains than piping that dalokah's bar heavy four times, comboing with pyro and any other more interesting gameplay. This is because there's just so much fun in getting that instant response of dopamaine that both classes work for, with sniper giving them out per click and spy per extremely hard to pull off trickstab. The reason people would like scout as a pick class is because scout gives you that amazing adrenaline rush when you get that pick, and unlike the spy, you get given the chance to live after getting that kill and it feels balanced because half of spy's backstabs are bullsh hitreg. Scout might genuinely be a very balanced aggressor class that can harrass the front lines like a minigun to steel, only able to break through when it's worn down, but it's just an awful lot more fun to just get behind that steel and kick it off instead of waiting for some big hot soldier or demoman to help you instead. Besides that, though, it's entirely agreeable.
I don't I feel like this video doesn't really have anything to say and if I does then it's going about it very oddly. The title says "scout is not a pick class" and the logic is that he is too versatile to the point where trying to categorize him would be reductionist. That’s all well and good but, the problem is this. That is true of every generalist. Why isn't this video called soldier is not a power class (etc.)? It seems like you have a more fundamental problem with the pick, power, support categorization method than any thing. I don’t mean to be harsh but, this seems like a mentality that might come from playing sixes. In that environment it’s very important to be able to change quickly between different game states. Hints why in the mode, for the most part, the team composition is entirely made up of generalists. One of the beautiful things about tf2 is how many different ways there are to play it. When you look at the great diversity of game modes that exist you can begin to realize the point of the pick power support system not to put a class in a bubble but to identify by similar archetypes the intended strengths of a class. The thing that confused me in this video is you come so close. You show example of other classes acting outside there archetype. Yes it’s an oversimplification but that’s the point it’s a tool for discussion. It’s not wrong to say scout is a pick class but it is wrong to say scout can only get picks. I could go on about the distinction between different load outs and how they effect the categorization but, that’s a topic for another time.
yeah, I agree. This was more about the semantics of a term's meaning than anything else. Like you said, you can make the same argument for most of, if not all the of the classes and the way they're categorized because that's the point of the categories. This is why defining your terms is helpful - it makes sure everyone is on the same page with what language is being used and what it means. A lot of commenters fundamentally disagree with his definitions for terms (for example what "pick class" actually means), so of course real discussion then becomes a lot harder due to miscommunication.
Here's how you can easily distinguish power class from a pick class: If you Uber a class and it posseses a threat to an enemy, it's a power class. Otherwise, it's a pick/support class
But what if a scout kills a enemy medic during said uber which would cause a threat to the enemy as now they don't have a uber Or a sniper than took out a heavy and med combo Wouldn't that be a power class then?
@@chitosetakaki9385 1. That was an argument toward scout being a power class, uber scout is a threat if he knows how to play, source: i'm medic main 2. Sniper may do this, but chances of this happening are really low and most likely he won't be able to do more than one kill, and this is nowhere close to what scout or other power classes can do
Scout, soldier, pyro, demoman, heavy, engineer, medic, and arguably sniper and spy (though i disagree here) fit that definition. Not sure I agree that 7/9 classes are power classes. Like what's the point of the differentiation at that point.
i would like to suggest a different kind of classification: offensive opportunistic defensive opportunistic offensive pick defensive pick offensive opportunistic classes all share two traits, they operate at or past the front line and they don't seek out specific targets, but merely engage whomever they run into, this is stuff like soldier, scout, flank pyro and battle engineer or huntsman sniper. defensive opportunists generally don't move past the front line, but they will likewise engage the first enemy they see, like demoman, heavy, engineer pybro and medic. offensive pick classes are ones that will move past the front line with a specific goal in mind, taking out an enemy sniper, killing a medic, destroying a sentry nest and so on, this is where trolldier, spy, demoknight and even fat scout would fall into. lastly there are defensive pick classes, ones that don't move past the front line, but still focus on priority targets, this would be sniper and crossbow medic for the most part, but also any long range specialist like loch-n-load demo.
For me, a power class is a class that can deal with a lot of enemies at once, and according to my definition, Scout is not a power class, because he can’t really fight a lot of enemies all at once: he can fight a lot of enemies one at a time. My reasoning for this thinking is this: when you run into a big group of enemies as Scout, do you use the scattergun’s spread to try and damage a lot of the enemies at once, or even just try and damage the whole crowd evenly? Chances are that you don’t, and instead you focus on one enemy, kill them, then focus on another enemy to kill, which is inherently what a pick class does. Heck, Spy can even do something similar if he uses the big earner to go for huge chainstabs. As for the generalist & specialist line of thinking, I don’t think it’s either the PPS line of thinking or the GS one, it can be both, where Scout is a general pick class because he can pick out any target he wants to fight in pretty much any situation, not being reliant on circumstance like Spy & Sniper are. It’s obviously a matter of opinion, but in my opinion, Scout is a general pick class
Scout is a corvette with the capacity of a torpedo frigate. His purpose is to defend key targets from roamers, screen the enemy, and take down important targets.
Actually engineer actually useful on attack because one reason In quote from hintshot. “teleport, win games.” Teleport is good getting people to frontline Specially maps have spawn at the same spot Well, objected is moving . But you are correct. engineer is king of defense.
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GG for your first sponso, hope it helps !
HOW DID YOU GET A WORLD OF WARSHIPS SPONSOR, YOU'RE ONLY AT 20K SUBS, HOW???
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7:12 you accidentally called med a specialist
Every class is a pick class because you can pick it at the start of a game.
The based answer.
No, no. He's got a point.
Oh my god
My mind exploded because of you
Damn you made this joke 3 months before me.
The fact people are calling the scout, demo, sniper, hell even spy pick classes is dumb, and makes me ashamed in this community
soldier has two pickaxe melees, the title of pick class is his god damn birthright
r/whoosh
@@mjacknback8994 Click read more
@@wet0wl Still doesn't justify your assumption to say pick-classes are not pick-classes. Like we get the joke, just the build-up to the joke is non-sense
@@badluck7286 The buildup to the joke makes perfect sense. It seems serious and then the twist reveals that he was joking about how Soldier has two pickaxe weapons. It’s subversion of expectations.
I swear to god if this becomes a battlefield i’m gonna implode
Fun fact about the scout, near the end of development, they considered changing the name of the scout to "the blaster" because the name scout kind of implies "no firepower but really fast"
Glad they didn't go through with that
Where did you read this? I have never heard this in any tf2 development discussion
@@Fieldcornguy this is gonna sound fake as fuck but I got to talk to someone who worked on the beta while streaming Team fortress 2 classic. It was really cool to get to speak to a developer about the beginnings of the game and some of the stuff discovered on the cutting room floor
@@tappajaav fym?? Bro the blaster sounds cool and badass as hell imagine being blasted by a guy named the blaster
@@pogobod2128 It really does not fit with in the naming scheme of other mercs. None of them have "superhero"-esque names
I think its a testament to TF2s intricate design how a decade after it's release we're still arguing about how to classify the mercs.
i think its a testament to how shit the class select screen is. but no ur right
@@frog_phoneit's fine, it's just boring. (Also engineer should switch places with sniper)
The classifications are :Power, Pick and Support
Engineer, medic and pyro are support
Demo, Soldier and Heavy are power
Scout, Spy and Sniper are pick classes.
This video tries to pitch generalist and pick in opposite sides and that makes no sense
@@elfascisto6549 SCOUT AINT A PICK CLASS
@@elfascisto6549why do you have to put 3 in each one
As a beginner to TF2, this video was extremely helpful for understanding team composition and general strategy, as well as play styles. Thank you.
Strategy? What is strategy? You just run and shot bad guys, win and repeat (i tryed to make some kind of joke, but im lazy to try imagening and translating it)
Wow, someone who actually cares about that as a new player.
@@TopicalHat don't give me too much credit, it took a hot minute for it to click that 2fort's point was not to get the intel, usually, but instead it's like. A deathmatch. we're just supposed to kill each other and actively going for intel just ends the game early if you succeed.
This video is useful but for casual gameplay it doesn't really matter what class you play. Classes like spy are competitively terrible but in a casual environment a good spy can dominate a lobby. Or an Engineer on attack can be extremely useful on payload or attack defence but in a competitive environment sentries are just too easy to focus down.
@@albigalloway4481 I mean, the point of 2Fort is Intel.
It's just that it would be more fun to not capture Intel at all because of lack the round timer. I guess valve just didn't expect for players to not blindly do the objective for the sake of winning
I have a system similar to the class menu's "Offense/Defense/Support" three-way classification system, but not exactly the same. Mine are:
Front Line (Soldier, Demo, Heavy): High health and constant damage, best for engaging head-on.
Glass Cannon (Scout, Sniper, Spy): Low health but very high burst damage, best for hit-and-run and assassination.
Support (Pyro, Engineer, Medic): Has a broad, diverse set of roles that are best suited to empowering and assisting their team.
There are obviously exceptions and nobody has to play any of them any particular way if they don't want to, but I much prefer my own groupings to the vanilla ones.
Scout may not be the best dedicated assassin, but he's still a glass cannon and well-suited to the task should the opportunity arise. He doesn't have the same liberty to choose his targets as the others due to a lack of range or cloaking, but his damage and maneuverability mean he can usually kill somebody he took by surprise and get out alive.
EDIT: As far as demoknight is concerned, I'd place that particular playstyle alongside scout's, not really an assassin so much as a hit-and-run flanker.
ah, my mindset is quite similar to this
This is just power/pick/support but with better names
@@nitothefunkybunch6938 Oh, somebody else already did this. Dammit I'm never gonna have an original thought in my life. D:
I like it!
I generally classified a "power" class as anyone that can do large Splash Damage. IE: Demo and Soldier, with Heavy being the exception due to his great DPS, and pick as anyone that does single target damage, classes that can only attack one guy at a time, which scout falls under. It's rather arbitrary (I did just say that Heavy is a power class even though he does single target damage) but that's where I draw the line between who is pick and who is power.
I say that power classes specialize and damage and face on survivability, like those you mentioned, and pick classes as weak in most scenarios, but able to take the one kill needed most, like spy, but I say that pyros and sniper are zone denial, engie and medic as support, and scout as distraction that can kill people.
@@StaticSwordsman “scout as distraction that can kill people”, that’s literally a mosquito
I classified pick class as class that avoid fighting (as much as possible) to kill a single (or multiple) high value target because they can't fight head on meanwhile power class is class that can fight head on like demoman, heavy, and soldier. Scout can pick very well with his speed but he's also very effective in head on combat making him a power class.
That's why democaber or trolldier is pick class because he's not very strong head on with only pipes to fight (or none at all). While a demoknight isn't necessarily a power class nor pick class... Yeah you can see it's still flawed.
Especially arbitrary when you consider that pyro can outdamage heavy with the dual wielding loadout and has a mix of aoe from flame particles and single target in the panic attack
@@zoruafox7512 The Panic Attack is probably one of the most overrated weapons in the game to be completely honest. Yes, it's very good in casual, but in servers where bullet spread is off, IE Any competitive game or a Uncletopia server, it's a worse shotgun beyond very close range. It's also not like Pyro has a primary that specializes in switch speed and the fact that heavy does 500dps which no one class can beat, including a Phlog Pyro.
Couple of Criticisms.
1.) There is a difference between a "pick" and a "kill". Kill is self explanatory, it's a kill. Picks are focusing down a specific player in order to get a specific result. Example: Killing a medic to deny an Uber, or killing a sniper that is watching a choke point, or ungodly sightlines.
A pick is a kill, but not necessarily the other way around. For example your medic jump clip, that was a good, jump and you got a lot of kills, but I wouldn't call them picks. Also, yes, ANY CLASS CAN GET PICKS, they are not necessarily specialized for it like sniper or spy, heavies can get picks too, and no one calls him a pick either.
Second, you can follow the Generalist, Specialist system, along with the Pick, Power, Support system. For example, The scout would be a generalist pick class, while a sniper would be a specialist pick class. I can agree that scout is a generalist compared to the speciality of a spy or sniper, but because of the nuances of what weapons a class can use, and how they move, and what roles they can perform, Generalist/Specialist isn't sufficient to describe a character.
Next up, a class can apply to multiple catagories, since they might not nicely fit into one.
I will describe the roles, then assign each class to what would best fit.
Pick: Pick classes are high damage dealers, and excel in 1v1 scenarios where they can use their toolkit to safely confirm a kill, they are expected to make high priority kills that can change the flow of a game, for example Killing a healer, or intercepting a more powerful class before they can threaten the team.
Power: Power classes have high HP pools, and high damage outputs and make up the bulk of a push. While they deal out massive damage, they are also expected to take a massive amount of incoming damage as they push or hold the enemy team.
Support: Support classes support their team, often in the form of HP and Ammo regen, or through damage mitigation, they keep their team alive longer so they can better manage a push, and ensure they are able to keep up a push longer and more often.
Scout: Pick
Soldier: Power/Pick (Support depends on banner)
Pyro: Pick/Power/Support (Weapon Dependent)
Demo: Power
Heavy: Power
Engineer: Power(Defense)/Support
Medic: Support
Sniper: Pick
Spy: Pick
For the scout specifically- The reason why scout is considered a pick class is because his moveset allows him to get in up close and personal, deal massive damage to a target, then use his movement to get out, coming in waves making a pick each time. The reason he isn't considered a Power class is because he cannot take on a large group of enemies head on like Soldier and Heavy can, instead relying on flank routes and mobility to pick off enemies one by one.
A skilled scout can kill multiple people in one wave, after all, he has 6 100+ damage shots, and can get 2 or 3 good picks if he plays his cards right, but he cannot singlehandedly stop a push without going in with multiple waves.
He actually *can* stop a push, be the push, pick, and kill enemies clamped together as a group. I consider him a power class.
I don't really see how he can kill groups of enemies like that, especially when grouped together, he does have the splash damage like Soldier or Demo, nor the ability to mow multiple enemies at once like Pyro or Heavy.
His shot simply wouldn't have the DPS to try and reliably kill all of them at once, he would have to take each one on, one at a time.
If it's a small group of 2-3 maybe even 4 light classes if he gets a kill with his pistol, then sure I can see that. If it's a push group, (Medic, some power class, and someone else providing fire) he will need to go in and out to pick off who he can, if he's lucky he might be able to pick one of before running to get health, then coming back.
The situation would likely be similar with light classes, scout and engineer providing the biggest challenge, but they wouldn't be considered a push group.
The only feasible way I can see a scout killing a push group in one wave reliably, would be with the assistance of a Medic.
Not saying he isn't a powerful class, he can definitely delay or initiate a push if he kills the medic or defending power class. But on his own, he cannot reliably take on a push on his own, we would have to resort to hit and run, making picks for the team to rely on.
@@SyRose901 you're replying to everyone that criticizes the video negatively, are you in love with htwo or what ? Get a life
@@piorcholnmurgatsh9488 Yeah, sorry, had nothing better to do and got cartied away. Oof.
who needs high hp when you literally can't be hit in the first place. why are all of these comments assuming you're gonna be taking a shit ton of damage on scout? any even competent scout can avoid damage well enough that low health doesn't matter outside of guaranteed damage like sentries and fire
I see why people could think scout is a pick class, he’s fast, can be sneaky and quite versatile. I don’t think he is necessarily going to be a pick class all the time (depending on your play style). Imo, he’s a “rush class”, (that’s how I’d use him) to rush the front lines instead of running behind to flank and get a pick.
Personally I see him as a mix of both but for me he leans abit close to the generalist side
But then again I am just a projectile loving person who for some reason can't aim hitscan
i still think scout is a pick class because he cant handle fighting multiple people at once, unlike soldier, demo, heavy, etc
I’d say he is a skirmisher, while he doesn’t have punch needed to contend with the power classes he does have the tools to pick fights on his terms more reliably than any other class
@@jasondahfolf4325 skirmisher is a pretty good term. his high mobility and close range damage make him excel at short, small fights. in large scale teamfights, however, his fragility and vulnerability to sentries limits what you can do
@@bitai683 heavy cant handle multiple people either, his main weakness is focus fire he cant run away
I personally categorize them like a Punnett Square, kinda.
We have the vertical categories, Generalist, Offensive, and Defensive.
We have the horizontal categories of Pick, Power, and Support.
Scout is the Generalist Pick, since he's useful in any situation and is designed to remove one target at a time. He can't easily deal with large groups like the Power classes, so he's relegated to Pick status.
Demoman is the Generalist Power, since his stickybombs are phenomenal at preventing pushes, not to mention their exceptional prowess in wiping out defenses and large crowds.
Medic is the Generalist Support. Healing is a valuable asset to any team, and Ubercharge is excellent at both preventing pushes and causing them.
Spy is the Offensive Pick. He's great at removing key targets that prevent pushes from being made, but he's also extremely weak, meaning he's basically a glass cannon.
Soldier is the Offensive Power, as his ability to rocket jump makes for phenomenal mobility, and the rockets themselves are great for wiping out large groups of people thanks to their splash damage. Yes, Soldier is also good on defense, but he doesn't have stickybombs, now does he?
Pyro is the Offensive Support. Technically he's a half-power-half-support class, so I categorized it as "Offensive." He protects his allies from danger, checks for spies, extinguishes burning teammates, and can incinerate small groups with the power of walking forward and holding the attack button.
Sniper is the Defensive Pick. Watching over the objective from a distance, he makes for excellent area denial thanks to the overpowered might of his sniper rifle.
Heavy is the Defensive Power. His insane amounts of DPS are second to none, and he's a beefy boy who can take a lot of hits.
Lastly, Engineer is the Defensive Support. His sentry is the best area denial tool in the game, and his dispenser is a reliable source of healing, not to mention he has a teleporter which can take his teammates to the front lines faster than you can say "YEEHAW."
this is probably the most logical categorization I've seen. bravo, I pretty much agree with all of this
This is actually genius. I have never seen anything so perfect to categorise the TF2 classes.
Dear god…
Htwo, please pin this guy!
I think scout is counted as a pick class because of his lack of group damage.
Generally pick classes are to kill a specific target.
Scout does that because he has speed for getting the target but only has hitscans weapons to deal damage.
But I totally agree with you about your points.
Even then, Scout is effective at dealing with groups of enemies. A good scout can defend a point, capture points, pick, and kill groups of enemies clamped together.
@@SyRose901 Unless the enemy team has 0 awareness and can't aim, you should be able to take down a Scout no matter how good he is, or at least make him retreat. Not being able to take down a Scout as a group is pathetic
@@SyRose901 I could say the same for the spy, in very situational terms.
The TF2 trinity is Pick, Power, and Support. But the game has hybrids.
Supports are Medic and Engie. Medic for obvious reasons, and Engie because Sentry holds a position, teleporter gets his team to the position, and dispenser keeps them from spawn in the first place.
Heavy and Demo are the power classes. Catch them with their pants down and they're not so bad, but when theyhave the advantage they can capitalize.
As mentioned in the video, Sniper and Spy are pick classes. I dont need to go over them again.
Pyro is the one Power/Support hybrid. He isn't quite as strong an advantage pusher but can still do that, and his airblast is such a strong support tool. Whether dealing with afterburn for his team, keeping explosives away, shutting down an uber. Not to mention hes the guy who shuts down spies.
I'd call Soldier a Pick/Power hybrid. And the difference is, is he using rocket jump? If not, well you'll notice new players who cant do it well have to play him like a power class. And you'll also notice all the clips in this video showing off his picks are him doing that. That's because hes trading on his health pool to go for a specific target. Something he cant really do without that trade. The best Soldiers know when to play like a pick and know when to play like a power.
So where does Scout fit? He's not a support, can we agree on that? I know hes got mad milk, but come on. Is he a power class? I mean, he can definitely do the "push the advantage" thing, in that he can use his maneuverability to effectively isolate people and win duels. But... replace the word maneuverability with stealth and isn't that what spy does?
Have three people walk around a corner into a revved Heavy or a Pyro or a sticky trap, and that fight is already over. Have three people walk around a corner into a spy or sniper, and that pick class is dead. Which one does Scout fit into?
Yeah. Scout is a pick class.
This is the best explanation I have seen, yet after 9 hours, no likes? Criminally underrated.
It's unfair how damn underrated you are. You bring up both pros and cons- not only the worst parts. And sometimes even a suggestion to make it better.
Please never change into a douchetuber or something.
I don’t think you should define a pick class as “a class who is capable of getting picks” because then, like you said, that applies to everyone. I think it’s better to classify pick classes as “classes whose core mechanics, weaponry and capabilities are better suited to taking out single targets than taking on groups”. By this logic, Spy, Sniper and Scout are pick classes since at their core they specialise in killing a single target, but have a hard time taking on groups. Classes like Soldier, Heavy, Demo and Pyro aren’t pick classes because, whilst they can still output tremendous damage against a single target, also excel at combatting large groups of enemies. They don’t rely heavily on accuracy, and can easily hit multiple targets at the same time with very little loss in damage overall, which is what sets them apart from pick classes. Medic can be played as a pick class, like you demonstrated, but this is not what his core mechanics are geared towards. Engineer is also not a pick class as he can hold off multiple opponents at once with the help of his sentry.
Scout may have been designed to be a pick class by your description and this video, but he can do just about everything. Sniper and Spy cannot do more than picking.
@@SyRose901 a high level sniper could run around on the frontlines and quick scope people before they can even react, and a gun spy could probably take on 2 or 3 people at once if he was at mid range and was confident in his aim. Scout CAN do more than get picks, but his class is designed for it.
I’d go so far as to say Scout and Heavy are more alike eachother than the former is to Sniper/Spy, or the latter is to Soldier/Demo.
Both are capable of dealing immense damage to groups of enemies, but because of the nature of their single target fighting style, as well as the balance of their health and mobility, it’s more accurate to say they can handle groups in detail, dominating targets one by one, rather than getting overwhelmed by all of them at once.
So much wrong with this, but the funniest moment was when he said scout could be just as much a power class as demo/soldier over footage of him failing to kill a sentry being built, point blank, for several seconds.
Well he's right. You didn't say how he's wrong. Every class has strengths and weaknesses.
I'd say you should've at least mention the sapper on spy, even though he isnt the best at destroying nests (since demo and direct hit soldier are tenfold better), the ability to hinder with the enemy dispensers and teleporters is a job he does best
I mean it is about scout tho
you barely went into *why* scout isnt a pick class, 80% of this video was just explaining what a class role is, and then just slapped the labels "specialist" and "generalist" and said "scout CANT be a pick class because hes also a generalist class", which doesnt really mean anything.
scout isnt a pick class because his sole purpose isnt to get picks what more did u need explained lol
12:04 explains it p much perfectly
@@snaekcathe’s high damage single target class, he’s a pick class
@@MB32904 Nit being designed to deal with crowds doesn’t make you a pick class it just means you’re better suited to small fights (pick class goal is to kill a few important people and die. scout can actively decide which fights he does and does not start, making him much more strategically involved in the entire other team than just one class (in short, you clearly don’t play scout)
@@snaekcat scout can pick his fights, so he can go after key targets & then run away if he either kills them or is losing a fight
Finally Htwo it's getting sponsored, the work it's paying off
Sniper and Spy are traditional pick classes. They were seen as a sacrifice, where a traditional role was swapped out in order to get a "pick" [on the enemy Medic] in order to turn the tide of the fight. However - *roaming* Scouts and Soldiers were sometimes referred to as "pick classes", because those roles were often used to get a pick or force an uber before the next big play.
Source: I have watched competitive (since TF2 comp started streaming), shout-casted/commentated matches, and produced/directed several esports TF2 casts (over 4 years), and I used to be an admin for one of the biggest Highlander leagues in NA and EU. Valve has even used some of my competitive promotional material in their blogs to promote tournaments.
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@@chrisdawson1776 -🤡
Favorite map to play cleanup Scout on has gotta be Upward defense, last point. All the staircases and side hallways make it so easy to surprise attackers and even easier to get away if it doesn't look good.
We could divide this on generalists ,specialists and Spy
i think it's more: generalist, defense, medic, and spy.
@@yoyo777 true
great vid but i would have liked if you went more into why specifically scout isnt a pick class rather than what makes a pick class
I’d say that scout is a generalist that dips its toes into the pick skill tree the most.
Yeah. Soldier and Demo both have splash damage. Scout if you think about it is just really fast at picking multiple people but he can’t get them all at once.
Soldier tho
@@badluck7286 wdym soldier tho?
@@chitosetakaki9385 Both Soldier amd Scout have a HUGE mobility option and 1-2 shot capability. Give a soldier some time and the right tools and he can become a pick-class with the market gardener. I mean, a comp sub-class "roamer" is made exactly for that - watching flanks and eventually flanking the enemy to pick off weak high value targets, like medics, snipers, or just kill an enemy quickly and optionally dip outta the warzone
@@badluck7286 true I don't really know much about como tbh I prefer casual
All I know about the roamer is from lazy purples soldier vid but thanks for the explanation tho
Scout seems to be a Power/Pick, in the same way that Pyro feels like a Support/Pick.
I’d say Pyro is support/power/pick. Pyro’s probably the most versatile class in TF2 (probably why he sucks though lol)
These terms really only work in TF2 competitively due to 6v6 being so different from 12v12 generalist and specialist are terms that are so used due to the main 6v6 mode being 5cp where you constantly switch from attack to defend but let's say in payload bad water basin( the like only 6v6 comp map that's payload) you could run a heavy on defense and he could do all the things you need. Also I'm assuming the medic part is a joke because he's definitely not a pick or power it's just not viable for him to have a soldier rocket jump him in. Also soldier is generally a power class due to his splash damage letting him do more damage than that of a scout when there are multiple enemies but the roamer(the roaming soldier) is a pick class as he is played for picks like the scout. The scout is also considered a pick class due to his lack of ability to take out a group of coordinated people on a point by himself while a soldier would have a higher chance. Also if you're really good at sniper he can go from a pick to a power real quick.
"soldier can thoroughly defend a chokepoint just as easily as he can bomb a medic" 6:23
average war criminal
It still annoys me when people label Scout as a generalist when he so obviously isn't. Scout being a generalist is pure 6s talk where in the specalized gamemode of 6s, all of Scout's strengths get played to and he doesn't have to worry about any of his weaknesses which makes him great in any situation (in 6s).
In TF2 as a whole?
Yeah play Scout on Dustbowl. REALLY strong class there. Play him on Red Payload, oh yeah real threat to Blu. Play him into any situation where he has multiple defensive classes he has to push into and watch as he fails to make any kind of impact whatsoever.
The Heavy is more generalist than the Scout is, shown by the fact that if he's allowed to have SNIPER MOVESPEED, not even remotely fast, and ONLY during rollouts, in a mobility meta gamemode? He now becomes a meta 6s class hence why every possible item like buffalo steak or whip is banned on him in 6s and he frequently has a more important roll than Scout in highlander.
A couple criticisms on this video;
1 - I fundamentally disagree with the notion that scout is not a pick class. even though he has items and playstyles that might lean towards support or other things, scout's fundamental purpose is to flank and/or get important kills, hence the term "pick". With practically any scout loadout, no serious scout player would not be going for these picks. Scout cannot take much damage, and his scattergun is only viable for one target at a time. And the argument that medic, engineer, heavy, etc. can also get "picks", therefore scout is not a pick class is pretty disingenuous, because of course they can get a kill. what makes scout a pick class is that he can (PICK) what class he wants to kill by using his speed, just like how sniper and spy can (PICK) who they want to kill with their toolsets. his versatility is irrelevant when his main purpose is to get picks.
2 - the video takes very long to get to the point, I was anticipating when you would properly explain why scout is not a pick class for the whole video and you only really adress it at like the 3/4 of the video. And you also don't really ever give any hard evidence, only circumstantial. Most of this video isn't even about the scout, its just talking about how other classes can get picks, "generalists/specialists", and other things. Talking about how generalists and specialists is the "proper" way to categorize classes in this video is pretty irrelevant and misleading considering the title too, calling someone a pick class is absolutely a reasonable way to categorize a class. and I also think that talking about other games' balance with tanks dps and healers was completely irrelevant to the video.
I really like your vids though, keep it up.
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The real question is, why the hell did the sniper at the end have a strange professional killstreak classic?
it's all about how you play it. for me, scout is 100% a pick class. i flank, find enemies i know i can kill safely (sniper, medic), rotate around, repeat.
10:33 that medic was in a voice call with the heavy he wouldn't turn around otherwise because the YER is a silent killer.
Scout does have pick class-like weapons like the now nerfed Baby Face's Blaster and more, and to be honest with Scout's speed he will win every single 1v1 if he doesn't beef every one of his shots or he isn't up against anything that can be defined as the bane of his existence.
So yeah, technically Scout can be defined as a pick class the same way a Soldier is a power class without Rocket Jumping. In that the higher skilled Scouts can kill or chip away at many different enemies.
Market Gardener using Soldiers and Demoknights are pick subclasses, just like Spy.
Pyro, Heavy, and Medic are not Spy or Sniper. Scout can be like Spy, but where Spy has the perfect tools to foil the enemy defenses, he just needs to expertly apply them, Scout doesn't.
All he has are guns, tools and other miscellaneous stuff that weren't meant to be weapons and questionable liquids, which can effectively do Spy's job supportively, but if you want to be aggressive, especially against a Pyro that is lighting everything on fire, a Heavy that is aware of you, and/or an Engineer just nesting or being combative, your just going to either have to pick off whoever leave their effective range, hope they run out of ammo and metal and stuff, or they just straight up can't hit you, then you will need to be a pick class.
Also, Pyro has been a generalist since Jungle Inferno gave him his Dragon's Fury. Now he can protect, he can attack, and he can Jet Pack Back Attack!
Heavy does have the potential of being a generalist class, he just needs that Heavy Update.
Engineer can be defensive anywhere. He can defend an ally or enemy point from the enemy.
Technically every class except turtling engi and medic are pick classes who's target is the entire enemy team
That's because this video gets pick classes wrong, the definition of the prhase i mean
Even if your "Generalist" and "Specialist" categorizations are correct, doesn't mean they're helpful. The reason the "pick, power and support" classification was made is to help group a team easily; You're new system cannot be used in this situation.
I disagree (kinda), uncle Danes chart is a lot better at describing this.
The scout is a pick generalist who can be good at a lot of things, but excellent at single kills. Heavy is a power class because while he is good at single kills, he can wipe a team in a instant if your not careful, scout sniper and spy just cant to that.
Thats what makes them pick classes.
pyro is a support power hybrid as unlocks like the dragons or the phlog can turn him to a team wiping menace but air blast, the home wrecker, and what the gas passer should be make him a support class. Idk ignore my stupid rant.
"Anything Sniper can do Scout can do better" -FUNKe
Scout is a bee, a butterfly, and a massive floaty nuisance.
I’d say Pyro really bridges the gap between specialist and generalist. Sure she’s a bit better on defense, but he can be a great choice on neutral and offense due to both the support and ability to pump out a ton of damage in close quarters.
Scout is a hybrid of pick and power. Pyro is a hybrid of support and power
I want to start by saying I hope you take my words as constructive, as I see you have the passion and drive for making content, however I personally did not really enjoy this video very much.
I feel like all you did was shift from one, more precise categorization to a broad one, and one that muddies the general idea of a class. I feel like that's the big key element you missed; pick, power and support are not meant to define the classes as to what they will always do, but rather what they probably should be doing, or what they are designed for. You made it a point yourself that anyone CAN pick, but I feel like you didn't address whether or not they should. Yeah, Soldier can sacrifice a shit ton of health, bomb in, and die... but Soldier can also be on front lines dealing with other classes trying to push through. Medic can get picks, but Medic would be far better off actually healing the team. Scout CAN power through, but I've gone on revolver rampages myself and I don't think either of us are insane enough to call Spy a power class, or an offensive force by any means. Pick, Power, and Support allow players, specifically new players, have an understanding of what their classes could and should be doing as opposed to other things. If I told my friends who are new to tf2 that "yeah, scout is good in all situations" and I see them running straight into an armada of americans and getting their dicks blown off, that would be on me for not explaining the strengths of Scout. He's flimsy and can burst high damage at single targets, that's where he's performing best, therefore, I and many others would consider Scout a pick class; Scout works best when he's getting picks, this is easy to understand for a player and this more strict idea allows to better guide choices for players who may not be able to read the situation as well as a veteran or comp player.
And that's what I feel my main issue is, I feel like you're trying to set aside a system that works for casual players to understand in favour of a system used by comp players. Here's the thing: Power, Pick, and Support does not contradict Generalists and Specialists. They can coexist and be used to define characters in different ways. This point bothers me most because of your generally hostile attitude (your wording comes off as "Scout isn't a pick class you dumb twat stop saying that call him a generalist") towards the idea of pick, power and support. You claim that Pick Power Support detracts from Scout as a class, yet you would then carry on to detail specialists as only all that useful in special situations, that they can't perform very well at all in general situations, calling spy so much as dead weight (which may be true in comp 6s, but you show gameplay from casual and don't specify whether or not you're referring to competitive, which leads me to believe that you're speaking of the game generally.) That, if anything, is detractive. Contrary to calling Scout pick, which suggest that his greatest strengths lie in his ability to sneak behind enemy lines with his mobility and take out classes behind front lines out of reach from the power classes or before they're even a problem with his high burst damage. Like you said, everyone can pick off like scout or spy, but medic can mow down an enemy team like a soldier or demo. Doesn't inherently suggest it's their best play.
Aside from the general point which I disagree with and don't really feel convinced at all on, there were a lot of other mistakes that feel like they could have been caught in a second draft. Scout himself is used as a scapegoat almost, yet the video itself barely brushes on why scout isn't a pick class. The video could use a more direct or clear title rather than a roundabout one that kinda just makes you come off as a scout main upset that people are claiming other people can do what your class does (while going on to claim spies are dead weight... like cmon man you sound so elitist saying that..) There was the point where you claimed World of Warcraft pioneered the idea of class/character categories which.... no???? Final Fantasy?? Dungeons and Dragons?? Like if you claim it pioneered doing that for multiplayer PvP games maybe I guess but you never specified that (again, might have been caught upon a redraft/review of your script).
I don't mean to come off as antagonistic or destructive, but I don't think this video was very well thought out.
4:14 oh my god I lost my shit at that demo doing the conga as he burns to a crisp
Pyro isn't defensively oriented. He is a jack of all trades. He can be a damage dealer using his airblast and high damage crit flares. He can be a flanker with he backburner and the detonator. Sure scout is fast, but his movement is a bit conventional. Pyro can fly in multiple different ways. He can be a support class, guarding the basically anything, removing sappers, and vaporizing spies. Pyro can also equip the dragons fury and the pocket medic and use good aim to absolutely destroy anyone and everyone on the enemy team. He can do everything. And that includes picking a generalist loadout to switch between these roles, though he isn't nearly as effective at it as someone like soldier.
Soldier is the jack of all trades. Pyro is more of a "master of none"
@@piorcholnmurgatsh9488 soldier can do everything with one loadout, while pyro can do anything really well but has to choose one to specialize in.
Any class can be a pick class if you want to be an asshole to one specific enemy on the opposing team.
The main argument for scout being a pick class isnt that its the only thing he can do, but that he can do it much better than other generalists without really changing his play-style. For a solder to be a pick class, he either changes his load out entirely or accepts that he’s going to die eveytime. Scout doesnt have to do that to get picks. his stock loadout and flank heavy play style means that he is already in a position to get in, get a pick, get out, and live.
I feel like the real issue is the idea that a class cant be half and half of two types. Sniper is a good example of this in my opinion. He definitely is a pick class, but at a certain skill level, a sniper can be oppressive enough to become a generalist. I wouldn’t consider sniper a power class, but i think its fair to say that their are definitely some players out there that have the aim to make him both a generalist and a pick class.
Applying this logic to scout, he would probably be a generalist/pick class similar to sniper.
Which considering how many sniper mains i see also main scout and vice versa, feels right
* takes one glance at gunspy and looks away in panic *
Don't move... He's looking at us...
Thank you for leaving a red bar in your ads so we can see when it will end, life changer
I have about 20 minutes of playtime in TF2.
That being said, as someone with an appreciation of game design and people who understand it, your videos are ENTHRALLING to watch. The way you actually look closely at how the game works and how players interact with it never fails to hold my attention throughout the entire video.
4:06
„That was a Matador, trust me.“
There is only 1 generalist class, the soldier. All others have conditions under which they are actually unusable, rare as they may be.
There is only 1 specialist class, the spy. All others can be used in more than one scenario, and have a large variety in their playstyles.
There are three power classes: demoman, soldier, heavy.
There are three pick classes: sniper, scout, spy.
There are three support classes: medic, engineer, pyro.
A power class is a class that is most effective on the front line. In high skill environments, their KDR will be above 1, but struggle to get careful medics, snipers and demos. Soldier *can* get picks, but has a far lower chance of surviving afterwards than sniper, scout or spy - and has an alternative that is superior.
A pick class is a class that is most effective at getting around the front line to eliminate a few key targets. In high skill environments, their KDR will be below 1, but usually very important kills. Scout will *never* have a KDR above 1 against equally skilled opponents, and must make up for that with good picks - which is not hard to do.
A support class is a class whose effectiveness is limited by the skill of your teammates. Yes, that includes pyro. Afterburn, airblast and flares all provide utility to the team beyond damage, that must be followed up with proper kills. A pyro going for solo kills will find his class woefully underpowered.
There are three classes of high priority, to kill: medic, sniper and demoman.
There are three classes of low priority, to select: heavy, spy and pyro.
There are three classes of medium priority, therefore: soldier, scout and engineer.
Considering how few items and circumstances actually bypass these rules, they are the most accurate classification in terms of "what should I do with this," 90% of the time.
EDIT: You will notice there is one of each category in every priority bracket. This division is pretty *and* practical!
10:21
*Heavy breathing intensifies*…
SPY HAS A GUN, AND EVEN IF HE DOESN’T USE IT, HE CAN SAP SENTRIES.
Generalist/Specialist also depends on map. On Dustbowl Scout is a specialist. Sadly there aren't many Dustbowl style maps in the game, though.
I think the reason people call Scout a pick class is specifically because he's really good at killing medics.
Now if only Engineer could have building unlocks so that he could be Generalist and Specialist.
oh finally someone that seperates the sponsor using titles
or what the term was
Sniper, the class that punishes you if you expose the tip of your nose for more than 0.2 seconds
I personally classify the weapons in the 3 categories instead of the classes themselves. For instance, Bonk! Atomic punch is tank, while crit a cola is attack. And you could also classify attack weapons into 2 different catatories. Like the force a nature is leaning towards pick, while base scattergun is leaning the other way.
Sniper and spy really aren't "DPS" classes. They're burst damage classes as opposed to sustain damage classes. You get big bursts of damage but can't keep the damage going due to a slow fire rate or time between backstabs. Soldier is also a burst damage class with more potential for DPS. Stuff like pyro and heavy get better DPS as they're able to continuously apply damage with no delay.
They're not "Dps" classes in the sense that their damage per second is high, they're dps classes in the world of warcraft sense. Basically "dps" was just a synonym for "deals damage"
Scout is a support class*.
Scout is a power class*.
Scout is a pick class*.
*with the right loadout
nice video! i think you did a great job at explaining the differences between generalist and specialist classes while also giving a helpful definition of what it really means to be a pick class. I do have an issue with this video though, it seems like you're describing generalist vs specialist classes in a way that is most accurate for 6v6 competitive play and not pubs. Your points about the strengths and weakness of classes are undoubtedly correct, they just seem exaggerated when youre applying the 6v6 meta to pubs. If youre playing 12v12 badwater, heavy and sniper are pretty damn generally applicable classes, but playing those classes on snakewater in your etf2l/rgl match is only a good idea in certain situations. I get the impression that you're trying to use the competitive experience you have to educate the masses on how tf2 works, which I really appreciate as someone who believes pubbers could learn a lot from competitive play, but i think you need to keep in mind that not everything translates 1:1.
Using the logic of “if he get picks he’s a pick class” pyro is a pick class because puff and sting
It's actually insane how little subscribers you have compared to your insanely high-quality videos. Keep it up man, im sure you will grow incredibly quickly if you keep making this content!
I disagree,
scout is not a generalist,
he is a duelist.
Scout thrives in 1v1 combat. That's a very specific environment. The only reason why he is used in 6es is because of his mobility. The ability to quickly engage and disengage is a key in that environment.
Soldier and Demo are the only generalists in the game.
Medic is a specialist, a support, a fragile glass cheerleader that makes any team do 10x better than without him.
Engineer is an area denial and basic support specialist. An anchor that is a big fuck you to an enemy team.
Heavy is also an anchor and area denial specialist but on a different level. He doesn't chase the frontline. He is the frontline. Anything that is Infront of him is the noman's land.
In 6es the meta is mobile warfare. Blitzkrieg for all of you Medic mains.
Where immobile specialist and other such classes struggle. That's why all the comp players have that misconception about what is and what isn't generalist vs specialist.
But that meta is the result of the map selection. If the map rotation included plr, ctf, or any other possible symmetrical gamemodes, than we would see different meta develope for each gamemode.
But that would also be requiring reforming some of those modes or making better maps for them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Bro stop you are making up terms at this point
@@A____P I'm not making up terms , this is english language bruv
6s does have some KotH and sniper at least sees a lot more use there. But the reason KotH 6s matches are so rare and why stopwatch matches aren't in 6s at all is because 6s exists primarily to cater to the movement-oriented side of TF2.
Literal everybody: Scout is a pick class!
Solar Light: DEMOMAN!!!
I agree with your notion that a class being able to get picks does not necessarily make it a pick class. However, I do disagree with Scout being in the same category as Soldier or Demoman, who can be considered power classes due to their consistently high splash damage. They are great both offensively and defensively because they can hit multiple targets at once, only suffer negligible damage drop-off with distance, and have 200 and 175 health respectively to boot. They are built to be out there on the frontlines in both offensive and defensive scenarios.
Scout, on the other hand, can only focus on one enemy at a time, needs to be close to the opponent before his damage reaches any impactful numbers, and runs around with a meager 125 HP. Alone, against any reasonably skilled power class, he would be at a considerable disadvantage. He can be powerful, but thrives especially when the enemy is distracted -- in a certain sense, not unlike Spy -- though I would naturally agree to place Spy in a different category due to his full dependency on it to function.
Almost all clips in the video show Scout being effective when 1. enemies have their backs turned towards him, or 2. other friendly power classes (such as Soldiers) are there with him to draw the attention away. Do I think Scout is a generalist? Yes, but with a caveat; because the element of surprise is more important for him than for other generalists, which is reliably achievable in offensive situations but much, much harder on the defense.
But that's just my two cents, haha. Very nice analysis, and I really enjoyed watching it! It's a very interesting topic to think on! :)
Yeah, you have not an ounce of knowledge when it comes to power/pick/support. Power can take out groups, Pick takes out singular targets, and Support assists their team through stuff like healing and buildings, and in Spy’s case, intel and chaos. Soldier is a hybrid, like Spy, who can do good in the Pick role (Bombing/Gardening and Knife) while also doing good in their other role of Power and Support (splash damage rockets and intel/paranoia, respectively). Scout, however, is a 100% pick class because his base play style has no Support items, requiring Mad Milk to make him a hybrid Pick/Support, and he simply doesn’t have the rapid fire DPS nor the sustainability of a true Power Class. Scout is defined by his ability to skirmish with singular enemies and having the speed to escape when he’s put into an encounter against multiple enemies where a Power class would actually stand a chance, because remember, he’s got 125 health and not a lot of options to help that other than running away. Yet somehow you seem to be completely ignorant of all this.
bruh facts
How can a soldier win a 1v2 or 1v3 without a major mistake from the enemy team?
@@АртёмТор-к2юThey can’t if everyone is equal skill but that’s not the idea. There would be other classes at the frontlines additionally, the Soldier would just have to be lucky enough to get them to bunch up.
Damn, that sniper at 11:33 made a great play
I am 99% sure people are convinced Scout is a pick class because of the Uncle Dane video that put him in a "Pick" category
I mean, the thumbnail just answered the question the title asks. There was no reason to click on this if the question was answered. Yet. I still clicked.
This video is great for those dont understand the composition and its importance in TF2 (MvM and Ranked especially)
When you choose Sniper or Spy, your team is essentially fighting 1 man short. If you fail to accomplish what your class is made for majority of the time, your absence will be felt.
In case of Soldier and Demo for contrast, even if you are a terrible player you will be able to benefit the team in more ways than one. Whether its intentional or not.
“just generalist, and specialist”
i mean the way you described them all makes it seem more like generalist, defense, and spy
I definitely like the generalist, specialist dichotomy, but Im not entirely on board with throwing out the idea of a pick class entirely. I think it could be most easily defined into, power, pick, and support, and each class can do a little of everything, but their competency varies. Scout is primarily pick imo, because he's at his best at the same time the other pick classes are at their best, when the enemy team is unaware of him, and just like spy or pyro, when hes utilizing flank routes. You may say, "well anyone can use flank routes, pyro and demo do it all the time" and you'd be correct, but I believe that spy and scout get the most value out of these approach options BECAUSE their goal is gaining information, and taking out one or two high value targets before either escaping or biting it. And that's something that any class CAN do yes, but almost no other class is AS ADEPT at doing it. I liked your compilation of medic picks though that was exceedingly based
The generalist specialist system is just a way to classify whether or not classes can adapt to situations well or not. the term pick class can still be applied just the same regardless. Also, whether or not scout is best at something and not best at something else is a whole other argument, but htwo stated that the point behind a pick class is that the class is good for specifically getting picks and not much else.
He’s a pick class. He is best against one enemy, and while the enemy is focused on something else. He is basically spy but fast and Boston. The scattergun, pistol, and melee all specialize against single target DPS, and the only thing breaking this role is the mad milk. But even so it can be used for pick and support.
The heavy is single target, as is the engineer, but I'm not really sure what that has to do with them being pick classes. The scouts unlocks enable so many different playstyles that putting him in this one box with this one playstyle in mind makes little sense to me. Mad Milk makes him a crazy duelist that can 1 v 1 any class in the game and tank their damage. He has weapons designed for sneaky pick gameplay, but he also has weapons designed for 1v3 fights, and he pairs very well with a medic, pocket scout is insanely powerful. Single target =/= pick class
@@htwo1 I am not too experienced with each type of class. I think the reason I think of scout as a pickclass is because of my play style. I use the BFB along with the cleaver and bauble, I attack or kill someone and run away just to do it again. Of course most people don’t use my stupid play style, but a lot of scouts do play similar to this. I guess scout is more of a jack of all trades fully depending on how the user plays him. So yeah I guess he is a generalist that has a bit of edge on pick.
He's not only just good at one target tbh
@@naenae2350 Did you read my reply
@@TJ-hg6op Did, and I stand my point
My brother in christ, Soldier's literally the only class in the game to have a pick, two of them even, being The Equalizer and The Escape Plan
"You can only pick spy when you're confident the enemy won't see it comming." -Htwo 10:11
Meanwhile me, tryharding with dr, amby and kunai getting a 52 ks on upward like i'm swipez or some shit
The fact the one who says demo is solarlight makes it funnier
I would say the unique things that defines pick classes are that they are able to kill high value targets "reliably". Scouts will usually run into multiple problems when chasing a single target when the opposing team is guarding said target. Plus a single sentry is able to deny scouts from entering enemy territory in the first place
Spy can also run into a variety of problems when trying to pick a target, if you watched htwo's other pick class video it explains a bit more how sniper can reliably kill enemies without any danger but spies have to be much more engaged in order to play successfully.
@@hipposeducer28 Yeah spies effectiveness falls off when the opposing team is coordinating but If a spy is willing to pick off lets say a sniper that is hindering their team, most of the times a spy will be able to eliminate them better than a scout could because spy's arsenal supports the general idea of spy targeting important picks
A "pick class" isn't a class that's only good for assassination OR a class that gets kills ( *nobody* believes that "a pick class is a class that gets picks" and you know that) . Scout excels when fighting isolated targets and has the ability to pick his fights due to his high speed, spy has the same but due to his invisibility and sniper ditto but due to his range. Scout is crap at dishing generalized damage and closing off areas like power classes are great at. He's _vastly_ superior when fighting 1v1s and he has the ability to choose his fights and has to do so to be effective . That's why people call him a pick class.
Your video is either based on a strawman or you didn't know the term's definition before making an essay about it
And a generalist doesn't mean damage numbers for groups generalists means they can fit almost any situation
Scout fits that heavies can be melted if the scout is good enough
Soldiers can be dodged and killed
Demos can blow themselves up by accident
Engi requires a sentry to stand a chance unless he has good aim
Pyro can be countered by range,mad milk and just good movement skills
Scout can do good damage to groups if he plays his cards right
He can even destroy sentries sometimes by peaking behind walls and chipping away at it
He can escape alot of situations due to his speed and jump
And he can heal his teammates and himself with mad milk
Also saying a pick class is supposed to get picks is litteraly the same thing as assassinations just with a different word
And also who gives a fuck about scientific definitions of a term its pretty obvious by its fucking names
Your comment is either based on a twitter account or you didn't try talking about the generalist side of things before making a essay about it
@@chitosetakaki9385 I wasn't even talking about generalists and specialists, I was talking about power classes and pick classes.
There is NO need to talk about generalist classes when you're talking about scout's natural inclination torwards being a pick class. Scout is not a power class and not a support class, he's a pick class.
I wasn't debating playstyles either, it's about the inherit strengths of the class and the natural optimal strategy that results from them. Fighting at the frontline, holding chokepoints, area denying, generalized damage dealing and gaining ground for his team to advance are not abilities inherent to scout's kit or the strategy that comes naturally from it. I am *not* saying these tactics are impossible to do as scout. You can play heavy as a pick class, play engineer as an offense class and play pyro as if he was a good class. Your playstyle doesn't change the classes inherent strengths and weaknesses. I'm not debating your playstyle or what the classes CAN or CAN'T do.
Spy and sniper are pick classes because they naturally excel and are most effective at single target elimination NOT because the only thing they're good for is single target elimination (as this video implies the definition of pick class is). That's like saying that since Soldier is a power class, he's completely unable at eliminating isolated key targets in 1v1s and avoiding undesired battles. Spy and Sniper are specialist classes AND pick classes. Scout is a generalist class AND a pick class. There's no proof that he can't be both. (Yes spy and sniper are unable to act as power classes, given their design. But that's not why they're called pick classes. No one is arguing that soldier isn't a projectile class because he has a shotgun).
P.S: I do not have a Twitter account, you accusing me of that makes zero sense.
scout is exactly that: a scout. someone you send out to gather information and secure flanks. he's just armef with his legs and enough firepower to get himself out of any 1v1
How many terms can you get wrong in 12:30 seconds ?
Htwo: How many do you got ?
Care to actually tell me what I got wrong and why? Or are you literally every other youtube commenter?
Here's my take on the TF2 classes being put in categories (This is based on my experiences):
Scout - Aggressive
Soldier - General
Pyro - Offensive Support
Demo - General Offence
Heavy - General Defence
Engie - Defencive Support
Medic - General Support
Sniper - Passive Pick
Spy - Aggressive Pick
General - Does whatever, can be put on Offence or Defence
Defencive - Usually does better on Defence
Offencive - Usually does better on Offence
Passive - Usually doesn't get into intense combat
Aggressive - Usually pushes into the enemy (Loud OR Queit)
(This doesn't even get into the sub-classes, and change how they change the general roll of the class [e.g. Tomislav Heavy - Aggressive Heavy, Gunspy - Passive Spy].)
demo is a solid defensive class when used with scottish resistance and supressing fire with grenade launcher is good for stopping enemy advance
“scout is a generalist” crowd be real quiet when theres a sentry on the map
engineer alone can make nobody ever pick scout for the rest of the game. everything you said about sniper being forced to wait for somebody else to push for you applies for scout as well
if sentries never existed, id agree with you. but in defensive situations, an engineer is guaranteed to be there, and scout will become far too situational to run at that point
There are very few maps, or sentry spots, that prevent you from playing scout entirely. The sentry will cover big chunks of the point, but there will always be a flank to get in on, and there will always be places for the scout to be to deal damage.
Think of upward last, for example. The scout has all of the buildings, as well as all of the underneath of the point, to run around in and do his thing. He just can't get to the point itself until an uber kills the gun.
Sentries are one of scouts weaknesses, sure, but the other generalists also have weaknesses too.
@@htwo1 And what will he accomplish in these flank routes? People are huddled around the objective, like the payload in upward, and there’s very little reason for any snipers and especially medics to be hanging around them. The only place I can think of is in upward last, where a Red scout can easily pick off any snipers hanging around the chokepoint, but thats still assuming there isnt any Blu engineers that commonly set up around that choke, let alone other blu teammates.
scout is pretty much forced to just pick off any scraps that happen to walk by in flanks. And because these routes are often claustrophobic, scout doesnt get to take advantage of his mobility and there’s a realistic chance that he’ll just die to anyone around these routes.
This is a far cry from the other generalists like Soldier, Demo, and medic who can accomplish feats like wiping out teams, taking out buildings, watching flank routes, and capturing objectives, and they can switch between these priorities at a dimes notice. Scout can only do all those things without sentries present, he simply doesnt have the tools and health to destroy them. A scout with sentries present and a scout where there isnt are two completely different playstyles, its genuinely shocking to see how much they restrict him.
@@itsasecrettoevery1 This just ends up not being true in practice. A team that just huddles aimlessly on the objective is a team who dies to spam for free. Teams hold these side routes because if they dont they lose the game. Scout can have a very good time getting in on these flank routes and trying to kill the enemies that are holding them. He's more limited than the other generalists in this one scenario, but that again doesn't mean he isn't a generalist. Soldiers and demos are much more limited against pyros, but you wouldnt say this one matchup makes them suddenly not specialists would you?
Somehow there's still no consensus in the community on what a "class role" is [other than the universal agreement that pyro is "support"], so I'm going to toss in my completely subjective definition of class roles:
While versatile classes like the soldier and demo can realistically take on any role with ease, their options become very limited once they're at the frontlines and have dedicated that life to the role they've chosen. If a soldier chooses the direct hit and the battalion's back up to build the 600 damage meter as soon as possible and make a push, they'll have a much harder time playing a proper "power class" role compared to a soldier using, for example, the stock rocket launcher and the concheror.
So, based on not just your class, but your weapon choice and plan of action for your current life, you fall into 1 of 4 categories: Power, Pick, Support and Hybrid, meaning you can either absorb and/or deal lots of damage over time, quickly kill important classes, provide buffs and protection for your team, or a combination of the 3.
*If you have a large amount of health and/or firepower, you're a power class.* Your role is to drag in attention, keep pressure on the enemy team, and be at the forefront of pushes. Power classes can be independent, but are vastly more efficient when fighting alongside teammates, since the distraction they create while at the frontline opens up a large window to make a push.
Heavy, soldier, demo, and sometimes Pyro fall into this by default, but gunslinger engi is also a reliable power class if they know what they're doing. Most times they even end up outperforming the former 4 due to the sheer pressure mini sentries put on the enemy team.
*If you have low health and/or a single shot weapon, you're a pick class.* Your main priority is taking out the most impactful classes on the enemy team, such as heavies, medics and engineers. If you manage to get behind enemy lines, make sure to warn your teammates of incoming pushes or enemy pick classes before fighting them head-on to ensure that they are aware of the threat and on the lookout in the event that you fail to kill said threat.
Scout, spy and sniper obviously fall into this, but a soldier can make a great pick class in a pinch if they can rocket jump behind enemy lines. Most pick classes aside from the first 3 mentioned are typically hybrids between pick and power, such as demoknight, fat scout, or the aforementioned soldier.
*If your game impact is at its highest while behind or alongside your teammates, you're a support class.* Your role is to protect your teammates from classes of any type [especially spies] and to assist them in pushes, while holding off the enemy team during downtime. As a support class, you'll want to stay relatively close to the frontlines, but fight alongside at least 1 or 2 teammates if you're going to be entering the enemy's line of fire, due to support classes almost always having either low health or limited damage options.
Sniper, medic and engineer obviously fall into this category, and pyros work best alongside teammates, but banner soldiers, sticky demos and unconventional heavy loadouts [ie brass beast, dalokohs bar, etc] not only excel but _massively outperform_ their default counterparts when coordinated with their team. Yes, _all classes_ work better when coordinated, but you have to admit that those 3 fuckers turn the game on their heads when their team backs them up properly.
*If your class falls into more or less than 1 of these categories, you're a hybrid class.* Your role varies massively, but you'll likely either be making semi-important picks or pressuring the enemy team. If you're a hybrid class, you should be actively trying to fight alongside either a fellow hybrid, a support, or a power class at all times. You're always allowed to go do your own thing, but a distraction and a healer can't work if there's nobody to heal or take the attention from.
All 9 classes can make a solid hybrid class. Spy, by these definitions, is a hybrid of pick and support because of his sapper, and engineer is literally every class type at once no matter what loadout you choose. As a hybrid class, the best thing you can do is help your team. Protect your engineers and medics of course, but also make sure that your power classes have ample support, and no enemy pick classes make it behind your team.
A player's actual choices in game is what dictates their role more than their class and weapon choice, though. A scout is a great pick class by default, but you can also very easily take down power classes and make a very good uber target. A heavy on the other hand is almost always either a power or support class, but even if you're not playing as a fat scout, heavies can find opportunities to flank and push back the enemy team or make important picks.
Problem with this is that scout plays like spy (flanking) to get a specific target (sniper or med) and can only focus one enemy at a time like sniper or spy because they have only single shot high accuracy weapons that can only hit one person. He also has tools to be a better pick class (though some are trash) like the back scatter that (tried) made him better at picking.
The point made in the video was that scout isn't only good for picking, he's generally good for dealing dps. He can be perfectly successful at picking players, but unlike spy and sniper he isn't limited to playing picks. (huntsman is an exception, but its a subclass so I really wouldn't say it counts)
@@hipposeducer28 but that still means he is still a pick class.
@@Blumoon09 By htwo's logic, it isn't, and htwo's logic is pretty solid so i'm going to stick with him on that.
@@hipposeducer28 didn't you just say that scout was just a good pick class and most players especially veterans know that scout is a pick class, I'm choosing to listen to players who have played for years than a random guy I never heard of until this video
Drinking game: every time he taunts after a kill take a shot
Scout is a pick class not because he kills, but because he has pretty much no AOE damage.
Unlike solder or demo are based on it(excluding subclasses). Sniper can't headshot in a radius, and spy doesn't have explosive backstab.
Also, heavy is a bit more versatile than you think.
And battlengie exists.
I think the problem is even in your attempt to define it you sort of end up making points that are only true depending on loadout, especially for pyro. Sure pyro can have lacking damage, but if you use the dragon's fury you're not really hurting for burst damage at all. Same goes for their mobility based on if you use the detonator/thermal thruster. Equally it is hard to argue that classes like engineer are less effective on offense when it can be very effective to use teleporters/mini sentries to secure the progress your team has made so far to avoid being pushed back.
I think it is probably most helpful to A: split by loadout (including weirder stuff like syringe gun-focused medic, shotgun focused heavy or gun focused spy) and then B: Determine how many of said loadout you'd want on a team. I think most teams would benefit quite well from more soldiers/demomen in most scenarions, but that would not be true of market gardeners or demoknights. Equally a mobility focused dragons fury pyro is probably a lot more spammable than something like a combo pyro or one focusing on team support with airblast.
I do agree with everything in this video, and I think that scout being considered a pick class is just cause pick classes are way more fun. Spy is a good example cause there's obviously the thought that you shouldn't be alive, you're outsmarting the opponent and you're being a good spy main because you can infiltrate these idiots and get that one heavenly backstab on the medic and potentially chainstab, though sniper is a much better example. Excelling in single target elimination, the only gameplay with casual sniper and some of competitive sniper is just standing in one place clicking heads, and yet it's still so much more enjoyable to sniper mains than piping that dalokah's bar heavy four times, comboing with pyro and any other more interesting gameplay. This is because there's just so much fun in getting that instant response of dopamaine that both classes work for, with sniper giving them out per click and spy per extremely hard to pull off trickstab. The reason people would like scout as a pick class is because scout gives you that amazing adrenaline rush when you get that pick, and unlike the spy, you get given the chance to live after getting that kill and it feels balanced because half of spy's backstabs are bullsh hitreg. Scout might genuinely be a very balanced aggressor class that can harrass the front lines like a minigun to steel, only able to break through when it's worn down, but it's just an awful lot more fun to just get behind that steel and kick it off instead of waiting for some big hot soldier or demoman to help you instead. Besides that, though, it's entirely agreeable.
scout is designed to get picks and pyro is THE generalist
I don't I feel like this video doesn't really have anything to say and if I does then it's going about it very oddly. The title says "scout is not a pick class" and the logic is that he is too versatile to the point where trying to categorize him would be reductionist.
That’s all well and good but, the problem is this. That is true of every generalist. Why isn't this video called soldier is not a power class (etc.)? It seems like you have a more fundamental problem with the pick, power, support categorization method than any thing.
I don’t mean to be harsh but, this seems like a mentality that might come from playing sixes. In that environment it’s very important to be able to change quickly between different game states. Hints why in the mode, for the most part, the team composition is entirely made up of generalists.
One of the beautiful things about tf2 is how many different ways there are to play it. When you look at the great diversity of game modes that exist you can begin to realize the point of the pick power support system not to put a class in a bubble but to identify by similar archetypes the intended strengths of a class.
The thing that confused me in this video is you come so close. You show example of other classes acting outside there archetype.
Yes it’s an oversimplification but that’s the point it’s a tool for discussion. It’s not wrong to say scout is a pick class but it is wrong to say scout can only get picks.
I could go on about the distinction between different load outs and how they effect the categorization but, that’s a topic for another time.
yeah, I agree. This was more about the semantics of a term's meaning than anything else. Like you said, you can make the same argument for most of, if not all the of the classes and the way they're categorized because that's the point of the categories. This is why defining your terms is helpful - it makes sure everyone is on the same page with what language is being used and what it means. A lot of commenters fundamentally disagree with his definitions for terms (for example what "pick class" actually means), so of course real discussion then becomes a lot harder due to miscommunication.
this mans has never heard of flank/flex scout on his life
probably thinks soldier is only a power class too
Did you even watch the video?
Pyro is a generalist
Must feel great being wrong
I'm convinced.
As someone who likes to snipe with the crusaders crossbow, yes you can get medic picks
Here's how you can easily distinguish power class from a pick class:
If you Uber a class and it posseses a threat to an enemy, it's a power class. Otherwise, it's a pick/support class
But what if a scout kills a enemy medic during said uber which would cause a threat to the enemy as now they don't have a uber
Or a sniper than took out a heavy and med combo
Wouldn't that be a power class then?
Technically a good sniper would be a power class then. Then again, he is broken so
@@chitosetakaki9385 1. That was an argument toward scout being a power class, uber scout is a threat if he knows how to play, source: i'm medic main
2. Sniper may do this, but chances of this happening are really low and most likely he won't be able to do more than one kill, and this is nowhere close to what scout or other power classes can do
Scout, soldier, pyro, demoman, heavy, engineer, medic, and arguably sniper and spy (though i disagree here) fit that definition. Not sure I agree that 7/9 classes are power classes. Like what's the point of the differentiation at that point.
i would like to suggest a different kind of classification:
offensive opportunistic
defensive opportunistic
offensive pick
defensive pick
offensive opportunistic classes all share two traits, they operate at or past the front line and they don't seek out specific targets, but merely engage whomever they run into, this is stuff like soldier, scout, flank pyro and battle engineer or huntsman sniper.
defensive opportunists generally don't move past the front line, but they will likewise engage the first enemy they see, like demoman, heavy, engineer pybro and medic.
offensive pick classes are ones that will move past the front line with a specific goal in mind, taking out an enemy sniper, killing a medic, destroying a sentry nest and so on, this is where trolldier, spy, demoknight and even fat scout would fall into.
lastly there are defensive pick classes, ones that don't move past the front line, but still focus on priority targets, this would be sniper and crossbow medic for the most part, but also any long range specialist like loch-n-load demo.
For me, a power class is a class that can deal with a lot of enemies at once, and according to my definition, Scout is not a power class, because he can’t really fight a lot of enemies all at once: he can fight a lot of enemies one at a time. My reasoning for this thinking is this: when you run into a big group of enemies as Scout, do you use the scattergun’s spread to try and damage a lot of the enemies at once, or even just try and damage the whole crowd evenly? Chances are that you don’t, and instead you focus on one enemy, kill them, then focus on another enemy to kill, which is inherently what a pick class does. Heck, Spy can even do something similar if he uses the big earner to go for huge chainstabs. As for the generalist & specialist line of thinking, I don’t think it’s either the PPS line of thinking or the GS one, it can be both, where Scout is a general pick class because he can pick out any target he wants to fight in pretty much any situation, not being reliant on circumstance like Spy & Sniper are. It’s obviously a matter of opinion, but in my opinion, Scout is a general pick class
Scout is a corvette with the capacity of a torpedo frigate. His purpose is to defend key targets from roamers, screen the enemy, and take down important targets.
Actually engineer actually useful on attack because one reason
In quote from hintshot. “teleport, win games.”
Teleport is good getting people to frontline
Specially maps have spawn at the same spot
Well, objected is moving .
But you are correct. engineer is king of defense.
Scout is a pick class in 12v12 and a generalist in 6v6
This. Fucking thank you someone understands it.