Sloan will spare Bashir the 'ends justify the means' speech if Bashir will spare him the 'we must do what's right' speech. From 'Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges', 7x16.
"I'll spare you the 'ends justify the means'-speech and you'll spare me the 'we must do what's right'-speech." - My favourite piece of dialogue in this whole episode because it perfectly sums up the relationship between Sloan and Dr Bashir.
Yet Dr. Bashir does whatever it takes to find a cure for Odo even kidnapping a Star Fleet officer. Ironic that the ends justifies the means when it's Bashir's decision.
@@hey.hombre I mean to be fair, bashir isn’t partaking in intergalactic espionage, assassination, nor genocide that’s a huge jump from taking very questionable measures to cure his friend lol
This is the real-world-inspired theme of secret agencies seeing themselves as inherently standing above the law, which is a constant grave threat to the freedom of a nation, a troubling blemish.
@@_maestro7168 I think not. In today's world, Bashir would have been guilty of assault, kidnapping, and at most 2nd degree murder / at least 1st degree manslaughter. It was Bashir and Obrian's actions which at the very least assisted in Slone's death and at most caused his death through capturing him. I do say I agree with @ese.hombre. Bashir did seem to waver in his position of "we must do what's right" when it came to saving Odo's life. For Odo, Bashir did break many Federation laws for "ends justify the means".
Bashir & O'Brien doing what they did to Sloane.... I take that as just going Section 31 on a Section 31 operative. Sloane died by suicide. Sloane died because he could not believe Bashir would transmit a lie to Starfleet Medical. Sloane died because he couldn't imagine a Doctor, horrified to have been used by Sloane and a complicit Starfleet Admiral to leave a Romulan Senator facing treason & a possible death penalty to curry favor with the head of the Romulan Tal'Shiar, would set a trap for a duplicitous man in black who thought he was 5 moves ahead. Sloane died from his own hubris. Sloane & Section 31 attempted genocide by using Bashir's friend Odo as a delivery system. Bashir couldn't let that stand.
Ironically, Sisko used Garak to provoke the alliance with the Romulans, which involved assassinating a Senator. Something that Sisko *knew* deep-down would be necessary when he brought Garak (ex-Obsidian Order) in to make it happen. Garak was also Bashir's buddy, perhaps second only to O'Brien. Bashir's argumentative attitude towards Section 31 most certainly stemmed from the inner awareness that they weren't *really* any worse than any of his friends, and that ultimately, under the circumstances, *nobody* was morally-pure.
And Sisko learned a valuable lesson. The Federation itself is more important than the self respect of one officer. Trading his or any one person's self respect for the safety of the Federation seems a bargain to me.
Other way around. He used Garak until he realized the price he had to pay with Garak. He didn't use him anymore than he used himself. Garak played him the entire time. Sisko was taken down several pegs in the pale moonlight.
@@kellyrayburn4093 war is hell and will force people to do horrbile things. That is why it should be avoided. Ds9 was all about what would war do to the federation.
I know Bashir's character arc gets a lot of crap for "suddenly" becoming genetically engineered, but I really liked the shift. Super-smart Bashir was great.
What's good is that you can see how he might have been trying to cover it up beforehand with his behavior. Now that he has nothing to hide he's not as cheeky.
It was actually a masterclass in proper subversion. It's subversive and compelling, but it's all _earned._ Prior development of the character allowed for it to be possible, and it adds context to certain things. It never just "came out of nowhere" like some people think....
@@JohnnyZenith Hardly any evidence of genetic modification, yes, but plenty of evidence that he was lying about something, and many scenes that get put in a new context. E.g. One of the earliest scenes of Bashir is him taking a puzzle from Dax that requires great mental concentration and breaking it. On its own, it doesn't do much. With context, it's clear that Bashir deliberately broke the puzzle, therefore showing Dax that his mental capabilities were nothing special. Since Dax is probably the one person on the crew capable of catching him out, this 'botched' first impression probably kept him hidden for years.
It's interesting how someone who is supposed to be low-profile has a name like Luther Sloan and wears a black leather suit. He doesn't look like bad news at all. Totally inconspicuous.
Sometimes, you need someone who draws attention to distract from those doing *real* work. For example, whoever infected Odo with a bioweapon probably didn't look that shady.
@@InfernosReaper yeah make a Spy trained against questioning and torture dress him up like a Spy have him act like a well bad spy then track his every move and tail him you know to secretly spy on whoever is spying on him
Gotta give these actors playing the Romulans a lot of credit, having to stand there at attention and pretend to be holograms while the other two actors talk about them.
in net work there a admin that see all like your isp see all you do and post can see you screen in real time as you play on the net work shhhh admin is not what you think it is the network is done by ip numbers chang those your not on the same network as the reast of us shhhh thing i seen get killed that the point you look like a haker and there one doing it
Brilliant conversation!! The quality of writing on ds9 is excellent. The fine detail of this exchange and many other examples display the shows brilliance in detail. The writers had so much respect for the audience. The scripts were never condescending or simplisict. Even complex political or ethical topics were clearly presented to the viewer. The language used was neither dumbed down nor pedantic. Just crisp clear intelligent and easily understood by everyone. Additionally in order to pull of this high caliber discourse the actors needed to be top notch. In this regard their was no question ds9 showcased some of the finest actors ever to don a Starfleet uniform. Even the most mundane of episodes were still enjoyable because of the high caliber performances of the ds9 cast.
I always wondered what would have happened if this Dr.Bashir would have been the changeling posing as the Doctor. The Dominion could have wipeout Section 31 like they did with the Tal Shiar & Obsidian Order.
that would have been cool and added the whole who is a cylon aspect to the show it never really used. although the tal shiar and obsidian order are obvois bodys, with buildings men and ships whereas section 31 is very hidden, its possible the dominion didnt fully understand or know about it.
Section 31 isn't easy to destroy. It's heavily decentralized and has much superior trucks up it's sleeve compared to the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar. Mostly because hiding yourself from your own government is a really good way to keep yourself trained in the art of espionage.
The chair in the room is from IKEA! I had it in my previous flat, ugly, uncomfortable badly built.I guess the federation was cutting corners because of the war with the dominion
I remember the background on the props and costumes. A good portion of the costumes are discounted ugly clothing or vintage clothing no longer remembered and then re-sawn into something more alien. The glass and wine bottles are sometimes taken from pawn shops, too. They do make a good deal of original propers, but they ways try to save a buck. So it's always fun learning where a strange or unassuming prop came from.
Loved the involvement of Section 31 and all the moral ambiguity of DS9, showing how in times of war, it was of case of having to make hard choices and morally dubious decisions in order to win, no matter what the cost and understandable in a case of all out total war. Which is why ot was always the best and most real version of trek to me.
We need sci-fi that morally explores strict adherence to ethics and law, whatever the sacrifice. As an ongoing theme, not toying with it a little and then throwing it away. Maybe it is already too late to do this very necessary pursuit. We have escalated and glorified the rot.
@@Dowlphin Take your point and why I preferred ds9 and tng following closely behind in favouritism. Which brilliantly explored exactly those themes of defending and adhering to ethics and law, even in times of war of crisis, where some people may cave into fear or irrational thinking, that it is better to do what is necessary, rather than adhere to principels.
@@wedgeantillies66 And yet DS9 even more than TNG deviated from it quite a bit. And that creates a fine line: In theory this could serve to portray the bad consequences of not obeying virtues/principles/laws, but in praxis it is promoting a concept that considers itself morally supreme but might be short-sighted. The outcomes of extreme devotion to virtue principles will be different, but whatever extra hardship ensurs from that, it will also not add more bad energy to the system. It is a very spiritual path that concerns itself not merely with the well-being of a person or a species, but of the whole system, and making sacrifices with that in mind. - This is related to the concept of true pacifism, which Mahatma Gandhi was pretty good at demonstrating the virtue of. (Notice that people died because of it, but everybody still knows Gandhi's thing.)
@@Dowlphin To be honest in my opinion, DS9 did a very good job of show casing that man himself is flawed and such society, where real or imagined is as well. Even a society based on such good and lofty ideas as that of the federation, that even though adherence to those goals is all well and good, unfortunately they have to be defended from others of different code. Which in order to be able to defend and ensure the survival of those beliefs and system, you have to bend or break them to do so. which depending on ones viewpoint, does that cheapen or enhance the validity and strength of such a philosophy and political system
@@wedgeantillies66 When the highest ideals can be maintained under sacrifice, they should be. Every interaction is an energy exchange, but this can be regulated through internal cultivation. Star Trek has shown plenty of examples where there was strong incentive to compromise own ideals but it didn't happen. Whatever we do, we become better at it, for better and for worse.
There would be nothing except Dominion and Borg in the Alpha Quadrant if Bashir was Federation president, but at least he wouldn't have to feel any moral discomfort.
@@RIDDICK0911 Indeed! Power that isn't absolute, isn't power at all, but only the illusion of power. Which is why throughout most of the history of democracy, it is inseparably tied to big finance and private central banking, as they are always the sovereign force within 'democracy'. Democracy has nothing to do with people power, instead it has absolutely everything to do with high finance and glorified plutocracy and nothing more and nothing less than smoke and mirrors with the worst of all peoples in power. Thus if the Federation were to exist, a few things here and there would be different as they don't use conventional money, but a similar plutocracy would still control the equivalent financial and media institutions that control President and Congress/Parliament of the Federation -- due to the eturnal, inherent nature and unfixable flaws in liberal democracy.
On the face of it, Section 31 is completely opposite to what the United Federation of Planets stands for. But someone once said, "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. What they do isn't pretty and it isn't nice and it isn't neat. But without them, the dream and ideals of the Federation would die.
Carl O It is like today, we in the west are very fortunate because we live in a World that most humans have never experienced, we do not have to look at the horizon to see if a band of marauders would come and steal our harvest and enslave or kill us. Why is that? Because there are men and women with weapons that guards us when we sleep, I know I was one of them and make no mistake they are out there. Was it Jefferson that said the price of freedom is eternal vigilance?
+Krister Andersson It was indeed Jefferson who said that. And he was correct. And I know that there are those out there that guard us and do terrible things to keep us safe. And I'm glad they do. If it wasn't for you and others like you we wouldn't be able to sleep secure in our beds. Thank you for your service to our country.
Carl O Not a problem but I am sorry to say that there are a lot of fools that live in la la land. Ohh they are just misunderstood and we can Always negotiate that is surrender our values and after a while our freedom and perhaps our lives, and these idiots does not understand that instead they feel contempt for the people that guards them,
Krister Andersson Absolutely correct. Once you've paid danegeld you never get rid of the Dane. And sometimes peace is just another word for surrender. I heard an admirol tell Picard "we must avoid war at all costs". They didn't say that at Wolf 359. Avoiding war at all costs is tantamount to surrender. It should be Avoid war at all reasonable costs,
I've always loved this episode too. It also makes me wonder if section 31 even thought the Romulans were involved in the assassination of the federation chief. Given that Koval is the federation mole, we know he wouldn't (probably) have assassinated or ordered the assassination of a federation official. And even Sloan himself says there was no indication of Romulan involvement. Always made me wonder if he only brought that up to throw off Bashir, and if it was a total red herring.
Total recall (a.k.a. perfect memory, I guess) can have a tendency to blind the subject to unreliability of information memorized, especially due to the general neurountypicality that tends to bring forth such intellectual extremisms. When you can remember every detail about a person that you read in their file, the power trip can give so much reward hormones that the whole sense of scrutiny atrophies, plus an equal influence due to society's great contentment with having just that special ability available.
I love DS9's darker edge but I hate how some people use it to affirm their philosophy that some how a more untruthful, dirty or gritty world is more correct or something.Roddenberry wanted to strive for the best in humanity and there's nothing wrong with that.Perfection may never be achieved but nothing is harmed by its pursuit.
Thank you! Someone who understands idealism does not equal naivete. I had the same problem with that vein of opinion among some DS9 fans. I like the show but it was at best, an imaginative, usually well-written spinoff of TNG that allowed us to see a more complete "Star Trek universe" but the true heart of Star Trek lies in how the future should be both _different_, AND _better_ - not just the same old conflicts we have today fast-forwarded a few centuries.
+gamesmaster35 I think DS9 presented a more realistic look at how the universe of Star Trek operates, and that after the cozy, self-righteous idealism of TNG, some of the audience was more than happy to latch onto this new vision. One quote from Beverly Crusher just solidifies this, at least in my eyes: "I live in an ideal culture. There's no need for your sort of violence, we've proven that." But really, people like Picard, Crusher and Bashir need people like Sisko, Garak and Sloan to keep them from being horribly murdered by people who don't agree with their view of the universe. The Romulans weren't above abducting Geordi La Forge, and the Cardassians weren't above setting a trap to capture and torture Picard. Hell, even the potential leaders of the Klingon Empire were all dirty to some degree or another. There's nothing wrong with striving for peace and civility. But turning up your nose and thinking that your culture is above warfare and violence is simply arrogant. And frankly, I would have loved to see Picard, Crusher and the rest of the TNG cast eat their humble pie while the Dominion takes the Federation to the brink of destruction.
DarkNova50 I just don't agree. It wasn't like Bashir, Picard, or Crusher didn't know there were people out in the universe that didn't agree with the Federation's viewpoint. And most Starfleet personnel are trained to defend themselves rather well. They were simply principled. They like many in Starfleet believe in this set of core principals and try to live by them as best they can. But they aren't above defending themselves if the need calls for it. And the federation seemed to run just fine despite having Klingons, Romulans, Kardasians on all sides we held up against multiple threats just fine with little to no help from Section 31. Section 31 installed Koval into the Romulan high council but nothing of real substance happened with that move. It was Sisko's move however unintentional that caused the Romulans to get into the war. Section31 introduced a disease to the founders that arguably caused them to become more desperate and hostile at the end than they normally would have been. Escalating the war ,causing more damage in the long run. Despite their machinations the very thing they were suppose to be defending, Earth was devastated by the Dominion. They seem to cause more troubles than they solve while it was the above board efforts of the federation that got a coalition of the Klingons (okay the Romulans was done a bit underhanded) to fight against the Dominion and finally win the day.
+gamesmaster35 I'm going to respectfully disagree with you. Saying that the disease Section 31 introduced to the Founders caused them to ultimately do more damage than they would have otherwise is mere conjecture. I could just as easily make the argument that it caused the Dominion to become panicky, and make more mistakes that the Federation capitalized on, than it would have been otherwise. In either case, there's no evidence to support the claim. Further, saying that the Federation had "little to no help from Section 31" is another point neither of us can prove. According to Sloan, Section 31 was part of the original Federation charter, and according to Bashir's brain probing of Sloan - a case where the ends justified the means, thus proving Sloan's point all along - there were Section 31 operatives working on the Klingon homeworld, in addition to the operatives at work on Romulas. So, saying that the Federation didn't have Section 31 watching its back is something we can't prove one way or the other; such is the nature of shadow organizations. In any event, I agree that people like Picard and Bashir are needed to give the Federation an ideal to strive towards. But I sympathize more with Sisko and Sloan, who make the ugly decisions necessary to keep the Federation from falling apart. Picard is a fine diplomat, an excellent face for the Federation during peacetime, and is in my top three favourite Star Trek characters...but he never struck me as the sort of man who had the stomach for war like Sisko.
I actually thought the same conditions would affect the Mintakans who are also Vulcan/Romulan in appearance as seen in the TNG episode "Tho watches the watchers"
Vulcan's, Romulan's (Rihansu), Reman's, Rigelians, Mintakan's among others are Vulcanoid (related to the Vulcan species) so it is possible they are all affected by similar conditions however certain diseases affect different Races or Species in various ways! I am not sure what the correct terminology is as since Vulcan's, Romulan's and probably Reman's, Rigelians, Mintakan's as well as other Vulcan offshoots can interbreed and produce hybrid progeny without artificial assistance who are themselves capable of then having children they could be considered the same species however simply different Races 🤔
Holograms also blink. Obviously. Why not? The tech can do it, so do it. It's like character selection screens in games. The characters are expected to move around a little.
There used to be a method to use a person as a fake hologram and spin around him without his eyes darting all over the place as he spins. Some day use a red dot for the person to focus on as they spin about. Or just use CGI eyes.
It looks like the actor playing Noral, the Praetor, is the same actor that played Praetor in Nemesis (whose face melted into charcoal) - now that's good continuity.
Definitely different; it was Praetor Hiren and he was played by Alan Dale - I can only think that he was elected in place of Neral. Additionally, Neral is played by two different actors in his two appearances, both in this episode and the earlier Unification double episode.
school lessons in 1690: "Life and teachings of Saint John and Saint Paul" school lessons in 1960: "Political situation of post-war Europe" school lessons in 2370: "How to topple an interstellar Empire" man, does life change....
Never rely on the noble intentions of spies and thieves, Captain. And you and I are either one, or the other. (anyone who's played the Star Trek: Online: Cloaked Intentions Featured Episode Series should get that reference)
Holographic images blink and breath? Was a composite that hard back then? I do it for fun with a gaming computer and Blender in 3 minutes. What a difference a decade makes.
Sloan was the demon knight who gave his life to defeat Billy zane. could the founders gooey blood be put into the key he had? and would it make better shields against demons when used on doorways? I just wonder.
Idealism is the previllege of those who live in safety and plenty. Earth at the time of the Federation has that previllege. However when survival is at stake, then it is the only priority. Even the Star Trek original charter understood that.
+John Huang In the novel, "Ender's Game", Colonel Graff tells Andrew Wiggin that, "survival is the ultimate ethos". Does Ender agree with the good Colonel?
+John Huang There are many instances where characters on the show have made an ethical choice over one for self-preservation although it's arguable how plausible a choice would be even in a work of fiction.
perhaps, perhaps not. But it has been my experience that most of the people making this claim come from quite comfortable backgrounds themselves. -- armchair edgelords.
"From 'Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges', 7x16." Heh, I don't speak Latin, but this is still quite easy to translate, roughly: *When weapons speak, the law is silent.*
"Why don't you get some rest," in conjunction with the dirty look and head bob Bashir makes after the comment. Sloan may be making an intentional callback to their encounter in Inquisition where Bashir was interrogated after only one hour's sleep.
The Doctor point of view always annoyed me in Star Trek, Dr Crusher made everyone feel sorry for the Borg and therefore saving one Borgs life killed thousands more later on when if they had sacrified him they could have stopped the whole First Contact plotline from happening and in DS9 Bashir has equally as sympathethic views toward the enemy when he attempts to cure the Jem'Hadar and then suggests surrender to the Dominion, a empire whos sole purpose is to rule over and dictate 'solids' all because they don't want to harm one or two people but they don't mind killing millions more through their decisions, Spock himself said "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" yet no Doctors in Starfleet seem to follow that code.
The last part of what Spock or even what Kirk says in at least 2 of the movies " or The One " and yet Spocks mother I think turned it around a bit the good of the of the one
Doctors save lives, no matter whos. That's how Star Trek sees them. Doesn't make them always good and/or right. It makes them people with their own view on life, their own philosophy, which helps to bring something different to the topic.
I personally am ok with a system of morality. HOWEVER *Only* if we are willing to set those morals aside when called upon to defend our way of life. And to most extents.
Just a quick note on the Jem’Hadar thing: at the point where Bashir was in a position to try to cure them of their addiction, the Jem’Hadar had no other weaknesses to exploit (although I don’t think that was Bashir’s intention). If he could have cured the Jem’Hadar, then the Dominion’s powerful soldiers would basically have freedom again, and that would certainly lead to some of them fighting back (just remember the Weyoun that defected). When O’Brien destroyed his research, he destroyed their chance at saving more Jem’Hadar, Federation, Vulcan, Klingon, even Cardassian and Vorta lives! Whether or not you agree with every Star Trek doctor’s obsession with saving lives, Bashir seemed to be doing the right thing in trying to free he Jem’Hadar.
You commented as well, and like you felt it was important. That your comment was more composed is irrelevant......that takes no effort to do online, if you want to.
A 24th century hologram doesn't have to look lifeless. Quite frankly... the holograms could have been dispensing the exposition in the scene... their biography...
Bashir's morality is the very reason the Federation need Section 31. If Bashir had the influence of Mirror Spock the Federation would have ended like the Terran Empire in the Mirror Universe.
Garek was right wasn't he? You know? I couldn't imagine what kind of intelligence and "tidbits" of galaxy shattering information is locked in the head of our good "former associate of the Cardassian Obsidian Order". But if he believes that the Romulan's cannot be trusted, you might actually want to lend an ear. He did after all have a brief stint on Romulus, probably knew when the Praetor walked with his mate and pet, and probably knew enough of how the Tal Shiar worked, that he could basically tell you their entire plan for destroying the Federation. But he's just a humble tailor right? Just as Bashir is a humble doctor (And associate of Section 31).
Do people here just forget that every Section 31 mission shown on-screen was either pointless or a failure? It's easy to kvetch about the ends justifying the means, but that doesn't matter much when your ends are a hot load of rubbish.
Prime commentary. Especially living in an America where our foreign interventions, both covert and overt, backfire all the time. Yet nobody in charge seems to get the hint.
Exactly. It's like what graphics card manufacturers are doing all the time. Why stick with how Lara Croft looked in the late 1990's, when you can give her smooth curves, realistic skin and hair, and such with the kind of graphics power we have today? Maybe I'm making this idea more than what it really is, but I think that science has always been about mimicking real-life with ever-improving equations and models, and in-turn attempting to improve life. Bah, it's all about the sex appeal! :-]
I could see the Vulcans and Romulans but I dont see how Rigelians would be included. Rigelians dont seem to have a genetic link with the Vulcans. So I dont know how they would get Tuvin Syndrome.
Rigel is used inconsistently , whether they are different planets or systems. In this case, it may well be that the Rigelians they are referring to are actual offshoots from the Vulcan exodus of Surak.
So is the real Bashir or the Changeling disguised as Bashir? It's difficult to tell the difference. The Changeling wouldn't have to pretend at all. Just behave as normal.
"I'll spare you the 'ends justify the means'-speech and you'll spare me the 'we must do what's right'-speech." - My favourite piece of dialogue in this whole episode because it perfectly sums up the relationship between Sloan and Dr Bashir.
Yet Dr. Bashir does whatever it takes to find a cure for Odo even kidnapping a Star Fleet officer. Ironic that the ends justifies the means when it's Bashir's decision.
@@hey.hombre I mean to be fair, bashir isn’t partaking in intergalactic espionage, assassination, nor genocide
that’s a huge jump from taking very questionable measures to cure his friend lol
This is the real-world-inspired theme of secret agencies seeing themselves as inherently standing above the law, which is a constant grave threat to the freedom of a nation, a troubling blemish.
@@_maestro7168 I think not. In today's world, Bashir would have been guilty of assault, kidnapping, and at most 2nd degree murder / at least 1st degree manslaughter. It was Bashir and Obrian's actions which at the very least assisted in Slone's death and at most caused his death through capturing him. I do say I agree with @ese.hombre. Bashir did seem to waver in his position of "we must do what's right" when it came to saving Odo's life. For Odo, Bashir did break many Federation laws for "ends justify the means".
Bashir & O'Brien doing what they did to Sloane.... I take that as just going Section 31 on a Section 31 operative.
Sloane died by suicide.
Sloane died because he could not believe Bashir would transmit a lie to Starfleet Medical.
Sloane died because he couldn't imagine a Doctor, horrified to have been used by Sloane and a complicit Starfleet Admiral to leave a Romulan Senator facing treason & a possible death penalty to curry favor with the head of the Romulan Tal'Shiar, would set a trap for a duplicitous man in black who thought he was 5 moves ahead.
Sloane died from his own hubris.
Sloane & Section 31 attempted genocide by using Bashir's friend Odo as a delivery system.
Bashir couldn't let that stand.
Holograms have a lot of trouble staying still
Maybe it's like an idle pose /s
@@SorakuFett You think the intelligence agents get bored enough to make them ragdoll over and over like Gmod body props?
Considering the state of technology today, I suppose yes.
And not blinking
Shush.
William Sadler is an amazing actor and did a great job as Sloan.
YeuxDeBleu you know section 31 has to be in charge of the Guardian of Forever. It's the best intell source in existance.
YeuxDeBleu He's great at playing scummy jerks
He earns that villainy paycheck.
He's the American Michael Ironside.
freeze1 It’s the cheekbones.
A Romulan Tal-Shiar, an Obsidian order agent and a Section 31 operative walk into a bar...
We can neither confirm or deny that they entered a bar, let alone THE bar.
@@MillywiggZ Hush Hush!!!
the punchline of this joke is classified under rule 8, paragraph b, by Section 31.
only Section 31 walks out
and at the end Quark gets all three to pay for the drinks
Ironically, Sisko used Garak to provoke the alliance with the Romulans, which involved assassinating a Senator. Something that Sisko *knew* deep-down would be necessary when he brought Garak (ex-Obsidian Order) in to make it happen. Garak was also Bashir's buddy, perhaps second only to O'Brien. Bashir's argumentative attitude towards Section 31 most certainly stemmed from the inner awareness that they weren't *really* any worse than any of his friends, and that ultimately, under the circumstances, *nobody* was morally-pure.
And Sisko learned a valuable lesson. The Federation itself is more important than the self respect of one officer. Trading his or any one person's self respect for the safety of the Federation seems a bargain to me.
This episode is about that the Section31 had right.
Other way around. He used Garak until he realized the price he had to pay with Garak. He didn't use him anymore than he used himself. Garak played him the entire time. Sisko was taken down several pegs in the pale moonlight.
L
@@kellyrayburn4093 war is hell and will force people to do horrbile things. That is why it should be avoided. Ds9 was all about what would war do to the federation.
I know Bashir's character arc gets a lot of crap for "suddenly" becoming genetically engineered, but I really liked the shift. Super-smart Bashir was great.
What's good is that you can see how he might have been trying to cover it up beforehand with his behavior. Now that he has nothing to hide he's not as cheeky.
I like the retcon with the nerve fiber, an incredibly obvious mistake, which he made on purpose because he was afraid of performing too well
It was actually a masterclass in proper subversion. It's subversive and compelling, but it's all _earned._ Prior development of the character allowed for it to be possible, and it adds context to certain things. It never just "came out of nowhere" like some people think....
He hardly shows any evidence he's genetically enhanced. Despite that I love DS9.
@@JohnnyZenith Hardly any evidence of genetic modification, yes, but plenty of evidence that he was lying about something, and many scenes that get put in a new context.
E.g. One of the earliest scenes of Bashir is him taking a puzzle from Dax that requires great mental concentration and breaking it. On its own, it doesn't do much. With context, it's clear that Bashir deliberately broke the puzzle, therefore showing Dax that his mental capabilities were nothing special. Since Dax is probably the one person on the crew capable of catching him out, this 'botched' first impression probably kept him hidden for years.
"...but Believe me Doctor the Deputy Chief of Starfleet intelligence just doesn't die of food poisoning"
Deputy Chief Epstein didn't die of food poisoning...
lol When Sloan says, "And certainly no sign of Romulan involvment," the Koval image actually NODS!
It's interesting how someone who is supposed to be low-profile has a name like Luther Sloan and wears a black leather suit. He doesn't look like bad news at all. Totally inconspicuous.
Sometimes, you need someone who draws attention to distract from those doing *real* work. For example, whoever infected Odo with a bioweapon probably didn't look that shady.
@@InfernosReaper yeah make a Spy trained against questioning and torture dress him up like a Spy have him act like a well bad spy then track his every move and tail him you know to secretly spy on whoever is spying on him
@@kellynolen498 If he's captured and interrogated? All that misinformation he's been told and believes will be quite helpful too.
You forgot all the silly crap everyone else on that station wears? I doubt they’d notice.
Gotta give these actors playing the Romulans a lot of credit, having to stand there at attention and pretend to be holograms while the other two actors talk about them.
If I had been Bashir, as soon as Sloan left the room, I'd have checked the terminal in case he forgot to log off, lol.....
in net work there a admin that see all like your isp see all you do and post
can see you screen in real time as you play on the net work shhhh admin is not what you think it is the network is done by ip numbers chang those your not on the same network as the reast of us shhhh thing i seen get killed
that the point you look like a haker and there one doing it
What? So be a hero and become like Edward Snowden
Ships have internal sensors to prevent such things in the 24th century just as my phone auto locks to my iris scan once I set it down.
William Sadler is great in everything he does.
Brilliant conversation!! The quality of writing on ds9 is excellent. The fine detail of this exchange and many other examples display the shows brilliance in detail. The writers had so much respect for the audience. The scripts were never condescending or simplisict. Even complex political or ethical topics were clearly presented to the viewer. The language used was neither dumbed down nor pedantic. Just crisp clear intelligent and easily understood by everyone. Additionally in order to pull of this high caliber discourse the actors needed to be top notch. In this regard their was no question ds9 showcased some of the finest actors ever to don a Starfleet uniform. Even the most mundane of episodes were still enjoyable because of the high caliber performances of the ds9 cast.
*Sloan's one of those guys who you thank God is on our side ....*
🖖🏻
I always wondered what would have happened if this Dr.Bashir would have been the changeling posing as the Doctor. The Dominion could have wipeout Section 31 like they did with the Tal Shiar & Obsidian Order.
that would have been cool and added the whole who is a cylon aspect to the show it never really used. although the tal shiar and obsidian order are obvois bodys, with buildings men and ships whereas section 31 is very hidden, its possible the dominion didnt fully understand or know about it.
Section 31 isn't easy to destroy. It's heavily decentralized and has much superior trucks up it's sleeve compared to the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar. Mostly because hiding yourself from your own government is a really good way to keep yourself trained in the art of espionage.
To become the CHAIRMAN, or the HEAD of the *Tal Shiar* - you got to be extremely evil
The chair in the room is from IKEA! I had it in my previous flat, ugly, uncomfortable badly built.I guess the federation was cutting corners because of the war with the dominion
I remember the background on the props and costumes. A good portion of the costumes are discounted ugly clothing or vintage clothing no longer remembered and then re-sawn into something more alien. The glass and wine bottles are sometimes taken from pawn shops, too.
They do make a good deal of original propers, but they ways try to save a buck. So it's always fun learning where a strange or unassuming prop came from.
Loved the involvement of Section 31 and all the moral ambiguity of DS9, showing how in times of war, it was of case of having to make hard choices and morally dubious decisions in order to win, no matter what the cost and understandable in a case of all out total war. Which is why ot was always the best and most real version of trek to me.
We need sci-fi that morally explores strict adherence to ethics and law, whatever the sacrifice. As an ongoing theme, not toying with it a little and then throwing it away. Maybe it is already too late to do this very necessary pursuit. We have escalated and glorified the rot.
@@Dowlphin Take your point and why I preferred ds9 and tng following closely behind in favouritism. Which brilliantly explored exactly those themes of defending and adhering to ethics and law, even in times of war of crisis, where some people may cave into fear or irrational thinking, that it is better to do what is necessary, rather than adhere to principels.
@@wedgeantillies66 And yet DS9 even more than TNG deviated from it quite a bit. And that creates a fine line: In theory this could serve to portray the bad consequences of not obeying virtues/principles/laws, but in praxis it is promoting a concept that considers itself morally supreme but might be short-sighted. The outcomes of extreme devotion to virtue principles will be different, but whatever extra hardship ensurs from that, it will also not add more bad energy to the system. It is a very spiritual path that concerns itself not merely with the well-being of a person or a species, but of the whole system, and making sacrifices with that in mind. - This is related to the concept of true pacifism, which Mahatma Gandhi was pretty good at demonstrating the virtue of. (Notice that people died because of it, but everybody still knows Gandhi's thing.)
@@Dowlphin To be honest in my opinion, DS9 did a very good job of show casing that man himself is flawed and such society, where real or imagined is as well. Even a society based on such good and lofty ideas as that of the federation, that even though adherence to those goals is all well and good, unfortunately they have to be defended from others of different code. Which in order to be able to defend and ensure the survival of those beliefs and system, you have to bend or break them to do so. which depending on ones viewpoint, does that cheapen or enhance the validity and strength of such a philosophy and political system
@@wedgeantillies66 When the highest ideals can be maintained under sacrifice, they should be. Every interaction is an energy exchange, but this can be regulated through internal cultivation.
Star Trek has shown plenty of examples where there was strong incentive to compromise own ideals but it didn't happen.
Whatever we do, we become better at it, for better and for worse.
Guy who plays Sloan is the same one who was the grim reaper in Bill and Ted 2... and Neral was Ted's father.
@DriftZ TwoSeven bogus!
"Sooner or later, you dance with the reaper!"
There would be nothing except Dominion and Borg in the Alpha Quadrant if Bashir was Federation president, but at least he wouldn't have to feel any moral discomfort.
The President is a puppet, a face that represents the brain behind it. It doesn't matter who the president is unless it's a dictatorship.
And Earth would be a lifeless rock in space if anyone from section 31 was in charge. Your point?
@@titanhades4331 How would Earth be a lifeless rock in space if Section 31 were to theoretically be in control of the Federation?
@@RIDDICK0911 Indeed! Power that isn't absolute, isn't power at all, but only the illusion of power.
Which is why throughout most of the history of democracy, it is inseparably tied to big finance and private central banking, as they are always the sovereign force within 'democracy'.
Democracy has nothing to do with people power, instead it has absolutely everything to do with high finance and glorified plutocracy and nothing more and nothing less than smoke and mirrors with the worst of all peoples in power.
Thus if the Federation were to exist, a few things here and there would be different as they don't use conventional money, but a similar plutocracy would still control the equivalent financial and media institutions that control President and Congress/Parliament of the Federation -- due to the eturnal, inherent nature and unfixable flaws in liberal democracy.
He's a late bloomer. Give him time. I think he is probably a great head to Section 31 about 6 years into the future after ds9.
1:17 That "hologram" blinked!
So? It's a hologram; why does it have to be just a 3D still photo?
This universe has holograms that can perform surgery.
Best ST series ever, it had everything.
On the face of it, Section 31 is completely opposite to what the United Federation of Planets stands for. But someone once said, "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.
What they do isn't pretty and it isn't nice and it isn't neat. But without them, the dream and ideals of the Federation would die.
Carl O It is like today, we in the west are very fortunate because we live in a World that most humans have never experienced, we do not have to look at the horizon to see if a band of marauders would come and steal our harvest and enslave or kill us. Why is that? Because there are men and women with weapons that guards us when we sleep, I know I was one of them and make no mistake they are out there. Was it Jefferson that said the price of freedom is eternal vigilance?
+Krister Andersson It was indeed Jefferson who said that. And he was correct. And I know that there are those out there that guard us and do terrible things to keep us safe. And I'm glad they do. If it wasn't for you and others like you we wouldn't be able to sleep secure in our beds. Thank you for your service to our country.
Carl O Not a problem but I am sorry to say that there are a lot of fools that live in la la land. Ohh they are just misunderstood and we can Always negotiate that is surrender our values and after a while our freedom and perhaps our lives, and these idiots does not understand that instead they feel contempt for the people that guards them,
Krister Andersson Absolutely correct. Once you've paid danegeld you never get rid of the Dane. And sometimes peace is just another word for surrender.
I heard an admirol tell Picard "we must avoid war at all costs". They didn't say that at Wolf 359. Avoiding war at all costs is tantamount to surrender. It should be Avoid war at all reasonable costs,
Carl O Yes look at our history for the last 100 years, France and Britain could have stopped Adolf as late as 1938 but they did not.
I've always loved this episode too.
It also makes me wonder if section 31 even thought the Romulans were involved in the assassination of the federation chief. Given that Koval is the federation mole, we know he wouldn't (probably) have assassinated or ordered the assassination of a federation official. And even Sloan himself says there was no indication of Romulan involvement. Always made me wonder if he only brought that up to throw off Bashir, and if it was a total red herring.
I kept waiting for the holograms to interject themselves into the conversation.
The Koval hologram did blink quite a few times...
Total recall (a.k.a. perfect memory, I guess) can have a tendency to blind the subject to unreliability of information memorized, especially due to the general neurountypicality that tends to bring forth such intellectual extremisms. When you can remember every detail about a person that you read in their file, the power trip can give so much reward hormones that the whole sense of scrutiny atrophies, plus an equal influence due to society's great contentment with having just that special ability available.
What a word salad to spew out something that’s just complete bullshit
A magnificent bastard!
Help me, I've just eaten my own thumb.
I love DS9's darker edge but I hate how some people use it to affirm their philosophy that some how a more untruthful, dirty or gritty world is more correct or something.Roddenberry wanted to strive for the best in humanity and there's nothing wrong with that.Perfection may never be achieved but nothing is harmed by its pursuit.
Thank you! Someone who understands idealism does not equal naivete.
I had the same problem with that vein of opinion among some DS9 fans. I like the show but it was at best, an imaginative, usually well-written spinoff of TNG that allowed us to see a more complete "Star Trek universe" but the true heart of Star Trek lies in how the future should be both _different_, AND _better_ - not just the same old conflicts we have today fast-forwarded a few centuries.
+gamesmaster35 I think DS9 presented a more realistic look at how the universe of Star Trek operates, and that after the cozy, self-righteous idealism of TNG, some of the audience was more than happy to latch onto this new vision.
One quote from Beverly Crusher just solidifies this, at least in my eyes: "I live in an ideal culture. There's no need for your sort of violence, we've proven that." But really, people like Picard, Crusher and Bashir need people like Sisko, Garak and Sloan to keep them from being horribly murdered by people who don't agree with their view of the universe. The Romulans weren't above abducting Geordi La Forge, and the Cardassians weren't above setting a trap to capture and torture Picard. Hell, even the potential leaders of the Klingon Empire were all dirty to some degree or another.
There's nothing wrong with striving for peace and civility. But turning up your nose and thinking that your culture is above warfare and violence is simply arrogant. And frankly, I would have loved to see Picard, Crusher and the rest of the TNG cast eat their humble pie while the Dominion takes the Federation to the brink of destruction.
DarkNova50 I just don't agree. It wasn't like Bashir, Picard, or Crusher didn't know there were people out in the universe that didn't agree with the Federation's viewpoint. And most Starfleet personnel are trained to defend themselves rather well. They were simply principled. They like many in Starfleet believe in this set of core principals and try to live by them as best they can. But they aren't above defending themselves if the need calls for it. And the federation seemed to run just fine despite having Klingons, Romulans, Kardasians on all sides we held up against multiple threats just fine with little to no help from Section 31.
Section 31 installed Koval into the Romulan high council but nothing of real substance happened with that move. It was Sisko's move however unintentional that caused the Romulans to get into the war.
Section31 introduced a disease to the founders that arguably caused them to become more desperate and hostile at the end than they normally would have been. Escalating the war ,causing more damage in the long run.
Despite their machinations the very thing they were suppose to be defending, Earth was devastated by the Dominion.
They seem to cause more troubles than they solve while it was the above board efforts of the federation that got a coalition of the Klingons (okay the Romulans was done a bit underhanded) to fight against the Dominion and finally win the day.
+gamesmaster35 I'm going to respectfully disagree with you. Saying that the disease Section 31 introduced to the Founders caused them to ultimately do more damage than they would have otherwise is mere conjecture. I could just as easily make the argument that it caused the Dominion to become panicky, and make more mistakes that the Federation capitalized on, than it would have been otherwise. In either case, there's no evidence to support the claim.
Further, saying that the Federation had "little to no help from Section 31" is another point neither of us can prove. According to Sloan, Section 31 was part of the original Federation charter, and according to Bashir's brain probing of Sloan - a case where the ends justified the means, thus proving Sloan's point all along - there were Section 31 operatives working on the Klingon homeworld, in addition to the operatives at work on Romulas. So, saying that the Federation didn't have Section 31 watching its back is something we can't prove one way or the other; such is the nature of shadow organizations.
In any event, I agree that people like Picard and Bashir are needed to give the Federation an ideal to strive towards. But I sympathize more with Sisko and Sloan, who make the ugly decisions necessary to keep the Federation from falling apart. Picard is a fine diplomat, an excellent face for the Federation during peacetime, and is in my top three favourite Star Trek characters...but he never struck me as the sort of man who had the stomach for war like Sisko.
Humanity is never going to strive for perfection.
If i remember rightly, i think that bashir was considered to play the part of captain before sisco
What!??
Correct.
I actually thought the same conditions would affect the Mintakans who are also Vulcan/Romulan in appearance as seen in the TNG episode "Tho watches the watchers"
Vulcan's, Romulan's (Rihansu), Reman's, Rigelians, Mintakan's among others are Vulcanoid (related to the Vulcan species) so it is possible they are all affected by similar conditions however certain diseases affect different Races or Species in various ways! I am not sure what the correct terminology is as since Vulcan's, Romulan's and probably Reman's, Rigelians, Mintakan's as well as other Vulcan offshoots can interbreed and produce hybrid progeny without artificial assistance who are themselves capable of then having children they could be considered the same species however simply different Races 🤔
Sloan and Garak must have known each other for a time.
Holograms also blink. Obviously. Why not? The tech can do it, so do it.
It's like character selection screens in games. The characters are expected to move around a little.
I love this episode.
There used to be a method to use a person as a fake hologram and spin around him without his eyes darting all over the place as he spins. Some day use a red dot for the person to focus on as they spin about. Or just use CGI eyes.
The truth is so sacred it must be surrounded by a bodyguard of lies.
Ah, good old plausible deniability. A spy's best friend.
That's nothing, half the sets from Enterprise were IKEA. It's really noticeable compared to the somewhat rare designer furniture from TNG.
Great text!
It looks like the actor playing Noral, the Praetor, is the same actor that played Praetor in Nemesis (whose face melted into charcoal) - now that's good continuity.
Dunnsley different fella I think
Definitely different; it was Praetor Hiren and he was played by Alan Dale - I can only think that he was elected in place of Neral. Additionally, Neral is played by two different actors in his two appearances, both in this episode and the earlier Unification double episode.
school lessons in 1690: "Life and teachings of Saint John and Saint Paul"
school lessons in 1960: "Political situation of post-war Europe"
school lessons in 2370: "How to topple an interstellar Empire"
man, does life change....
Graphics are pretty life like in the 23rd Century!
Silik from Enterprise in Deep Space Nine on the set of Voyager, wow
Never rely on the noble intentions of spies and thieves, Captain. And you and I are either one, or the other.
(anyone who's played the Star Trek: Online: Cloaked Intentions Featured Episode Series should get that reference)
At least neral didn't spend the summer ON THAT FUCKING COUCH!
Bashir had the chance to get the best of Sloan, but was never quick enough to do it.
good point
Spies. This is what Star Trek was missing for a very, VERY long time.
Section 31 existed long before the Federation begin to exist. They simple don't show up earlier on the shows.
I forgot there was a Starfleet Covert Ops.
Apocryphally, even the Klingons have a covert ops organization, called House Pegh.
Holographic images blink and breath? Was a composite that hard back then? I do it for fun with a gaming computer and Blender in 3 minutes. What a difference a decade makes.
I saw the holograms move and blink.
+Michael Bowie yes, it is a hologram, not a still image.
Still Image?
Galilei love your work, way to stick it to those who believe geocentric universe.
Futurstic Gif, bro
Blerg? What does it mean?
How did a proconsul get demoted to praetor and live through the process? Or are romulan ranks not analogous to their Roman counterparts?
That's what made the Cardassians so cool.... A whole planet of scheming, sleuthing, scaly bad asses...
Blinking holograms!
Federation's Section 31 = ONI Section Of the US NAVY/NSA or MI6
Except those organizations take their marching orders from their governments, Section 31 claims that they do not.
Oh that what they call deniability it,s SOP for Defense Clandestine Service especially because illicit operations can go FUBAR
CIA
No no no. Section 31 would be like insider organization like Tom Clancy's 'Campus' in "Teeth of the Tiger".
Neral blinked too.
I was so tempted to punch that last Romulan.
The Spy Who Came In from the Cold
One of the best episodes of Deep Space Nine. Thanks for sharing. Best Wishes n Blessings. Kieth Noneya
Sloan is the same guy who played Sheriff Valenti on "Roswell". Lol, Guess he finally got to the bottom of those aliens...
And the grim reaper
Sloan was the demon knight who gave his life to defeat Billy zane. could the founders gooey blood be put into the key he had? and would it make better shields against demons when used on doorways? I just wonder.
Idealism is the previllege of those who live in safety and plenty. Earth at the time of the Federation has that previllege. However when survival is at stake, then it is the only priority. Even the Star Trek original charter understood that.
+John Huang In the novel, "Ender's Game", Colonel Graff tells Andrew Wiggin that, "survival is the ultimate ethos". Does Ender agree with the good Colonel?
+John Huang There are many instances where characters on the show have made an ethical choice over one for self-preservation although it's arguable how plausible a choice would be even in a work of fiction.
John Huang I second that opinion.
perhaps, perhaps not. But it has been my experience that most of the people making this claim come from quite comfortable backgrounds themselves. -- armchair edgelords.
"From 'Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges', 7x16."
Heh, I don't speak Latin, but this is still quite easy to translate, roughly: *When weapons speak, the law is silent.*
"Why don't you get some rest," in conjunction with the dirty look and head bob Bashir makes after the comment. Sloan may be making an intentional callback to their encounter in Inquisition where Bashir was interrogated after only one hour's sleep.
Amazing! It's almost as if it's a real person, eh?
The Doctor point of view always annoyed me in Star Trek, Dr Crusher made everyone feel sorry for the Borg and therefore saving one Borgs life killed thousands more later on when if they had sacrified him they could have stopped the whole First Contact plotline from happening and in DS9 Bashir has equally as sympathethic views toward the enemy when he attempts to cure the Jem'Hadar and then suggests surrender to the Dominion, a empire whos sole purpose is to rule over and dictate 'solids' all because they don't want to harm one or two people but they don't mind killing millions more through their decisions, Spock himself said "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" yet no Doctors in Starfleet seem to follow that code.
The last part of what Spock or even what Kirk says in at least 2 of the movies " or The One " and yet Spocks mother I think turned it around a bit the good of the of the one
Doctors save lives, no matter whos. That's how Star Trek sees them. Doesn't make them always good and/or right. It makes them people with their own view on life, their own philosophy, which helps to bring something different to the topic.
I personally am ok with a system of morality.
HOWEVER
*Only* if we are willing to set those morals aside when called upon to defend our way of life. And to most extents.
Just a quick note on the Jem’Hadar thing: at the point where Bashir was in a position to try to cure them of their addiction, the Jem’Hadar had no other weaknesses to exploit (although I don’t think that was Bashir’s intention). If he could have cured the Jem’Hadar, then the Dominion’s powerful soldiers would basically have freedom again, and that would certainly lead to some of them fighting back (just remember the Weyoun that defected). When O’Brien destroyed his research, he destroyed their chance at saving more Jem’Hadar, Federation, Vulcan, Klingon, even Cardassian and Vorta lives! Whether or not you agree with every Star Trek doctor’s obsession with saving lives, Bashir seemed to be doing the right thing in trying to free he Jem’Hadar.
well its not a picture is it?
Heavy words
I think they're related by having a similar base for their blood.
1:18 koval blinks
I love watching Sloan manipulate Julian and everyone
In this one case Sloan was right. Bashir’s high and mighty principles would not prevent Koval from abrogating the treaty and that could not happen.
funny how the hologram is blinking :P
yes, holograms can be made to be basically the same person. shocking, I know
Would have been soo great had the romulans had a bigger part and square off with the obsisian order
Is that the same Romulan that tortured Geordi?
Section 31 is able to work outside of the Federation charter because it was around long before the start of the Federation...
love section 31.... check out podcast pendant production's star trek section 31.... great story line...
Maybe is not a still image
Consultant
he wobbles a bit to.
0:04 Bad ADR
You commented as well, and like you felt it was important. That your comment was more composed is irrelevant......that takes no effort to do online, if you want to.
Is he supposed too be blinking?
:P
Should've just had hooligan playing but on mute
1:06 : Koval blinks. Edit: Actually, multiple times. Interesting, very interesting...
A 24th century hologram doesn't have to look lifeless. Quite frankly... the holograms could have been dispensing the exposition in the scene... their biography...
@@varianschirmer9375 That would be pretty cool, actually...
Bashir's morality is the very reason the Federation need Section 31. If Bashir had the influence of Mirror Spock the Federation would have ended like the Terran Empire in the Mirror Universe.
Garek was right wasn't he? You know? I couldn't imagine what kind of intelligence and "tidbits" of galaxy shattering information is locked in the head of our good "former associate of the Cardassian Obsidian Order". But if he believes that the Romulan's cannot be trusted, you might actually want to lend an ear. He did after all have a brief stint on Romulus, probably knew when the Praetor walked with his mate and pet, and probably knew enough of how the Tal Shiar worked, that he could basically tell you their entire plan for destroying the Federation.
But he's just a humble tailor right? Just as Bashir is a humble doctor (And associate of Section 31).
Yeah they are using the newest nVidia organic GPU,s grown in a vat for all your holo needs.
F. Murray Abraham.
Do people here just forget that every Section 31 mission shown on-screen was either pointless or a failure? It's easy to kvetch about the ends justifying the means, but that doesn't matter much when your ends are a hot load of rubbish.
Prime commentary. Especially living in an America where our foreign interventions, both covert and overt, backfire all the time. Yet nobody in charge seems to get the hint.
Bang. Sick scene.
Love S31.
I really really hope the upcoming S31 film does it justice
$100 says it won't.
Bashir was naive and annoying. No wonder Sisko despised him.
Sloan did NOTHING wrong.
Exactly. It's like what graphics card manufacturers are doing all the time. Why stick with how Lara Croft looked in the late 1990's, when you can give her smooth curves, realistic skin and hair, and such with the kind of graphics power we have today?
Maybe I'm making this idea more than what it really is, but I think that science has always been about mimicking real-life with ever-improving equations and models, and in-turn attempting to improve life.
Bah, it's all about the sex appeal! :-]
Because it also means realistic breasts, and this is NOT what Lara Croft is about.
I could see the Vulcans and Romulans but I dont see how Rigelians would be included. Rigelians dont seem to have a genetic link with the Vulcans. So I dont know how they would get Tuvin Syndrome.
Rigel is used inconsistently , whether they are different planets or systems. In this case, it may well be that the Rigelians they are referring to are actual offshoots from the Vulcan exodus of Surak.
Couldn't they just have used actual CGI? These holograms moving is bothering me.
really? lol thats hilarious the things you learn while flipping through youtube
So is the real Bashir or the Changeling disguised as Bashir? It's difficult to tell the difference. The Changeling wouldn't have to pretend at all. Just behave as normal.
The FoP is definitely American in origin.
It's a picture of both the best and worst sides of the United States.
The 3D hologram thing is probably the laziest special effect ever on Star Trek. An actor with a bright light over his head = special effect.
true but its cheap and works while being consistent, also no star trek fan i know cares about special effects