Is A Red Dot On A Rifle As Accurate As A LPVO At Longer Distances?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ต.ค. 2024
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One of the most important thing I learned from this video: If you want to get close and personal with your tools, take them out to the range and test it yourself. Thanks for the vid!
Well said!
Thanks for the integrity once again John! You could have easily edited the video or simply just refilmed it! We are all only human and we all miss but we all don’t have the world watching and judging.
Be blessed bro,
Rick
Gotta be real, whatever the internet says. :)
I think you proved that you are less accurate than either.
He could have easily edited a video that showed him getting first round hits. It says a lot about John's character since he left the misses in there because we all miss.
@@Robmancan1987 absolutely more valuable to me to show the misses. 👍
Haha well, there is that. Man, not sure what my hold-over was problematic!
@@ASPextra don't worry about it John. The misses show that you are human. 😁
Maybe it was a different ammo than what was used to sight them in with.
I took a 2day advanced carbine class and used my 3x Fixed optic for everything from 10-400yds.. Missed only a few from being lazy and not following through.. That was some of the worst conditions I ever shot in.. Never had a problem with my rifle or optic. Some students did though, both LPVO and RDS.. Just depends.. Shooting is a perishable skill and you need to continue to refine it.
Love that ethic!
I run a 7.62x39 AR with a red dot and flip to side magnifier combo for the hitting power and hole in one accuracy at 100yds. MY LPVO is on an AR10 for long range capability but still has close range potential.
762×39 is great. I never understood 300 blackout. An expensive unneded cartridge with a fancy name to target call of duty fan boys and ment to perform like 762x39 but costs way more.... No thanks.
@@inhumanfilth681 the one issue I've discovered is 7.62x39 AR extractors are thin and will fail within 2000rds. 300blk uses a smaller .223 case head and thus the locking lugs/extractor are much beefier so failures are way less likely. If you keep a BCG for practice and another BCG for defense, this is really a non-issue.
@@SuspiciousGanymede thats good insight i would have never thought about that
@@inhumanfilth681 .300blk was also meant to be run subsonic suppressed on a pistol length gas system. 7.62x39 has subsonic loads but there is no option for inexpensive expanding ammo and AK rifles won't cycle them. There's even less reason to own a .300blk rifle right now; all of the major manufacturers are not producing for the rest of the year because they devoted all tooling to .223/5.56 to meet demand.
The extractors are as good as any for 7.62x39 . I have 5 for 6 years and no problems
No feed problem get good extended firing pins
I have a 3x magnifier on that KSG that I use with slugs out to 100 yards or so. I sure wouldn’t try a hostage shot at that range with a smooth bore, but I can hit a bad guy torso just fine.
That magazine push-pull is great advice that I never hear anyone talk about. That actually happened to me in Iraq. We had just been issued brand new FN M-4s. Magazines fit into the well super tight I guess because the anodization was new/thick and without any wear, still had high-spots etc. 12 fucking years of experience with this platform. I swore my mag was locked in, it felt as tight as any ever have, i swore I heard it click in, looked and felt normal etc. I fired the chambered round, and then nothing happened. I slapped the mag, charged the weapon etc, couldn't figure out what the malfunction was (because there wasn't one), my BCG wasn't catching rounds on the way forward. I even dropped and re-inserted the magazine twice, same problem. Turned out it just wasn't getting locked all the way upwards. Would have known immediately if I had push-pulled at the beginning.
The ghost of Pat Rogers compels you. That was freakin' beautiful!
I Moosecocked in one of Pat's classes on TD2. Little twerp just happened to be standing right behind me. I got the "I must be a baaad instructor" speech. Unfortunately, that was before he handed out patches.
Hahahahaha!!!!
Oh man better call the news, a magnified optic is more accurate than one that is not. Who could have foretold this?
@@papimaximus95 Technically true, but those two functions are very much related and in parallel to one another, particularly when you are taking shots at a decent distance.
Papi Maximus For the love of god shut the fuck up, you know what he means, youre probably one of those guys that explains the difference between accuracy and precision arent you?
On a bright clear sunny day, I find I shoot about the same with and without magnification. A man sized target at 300 yards is no problem for me with a Trijicon MRO or irons. As long as you can see the target and aim in the same spot every time, you’ll be precise. There’s an Olympic medal winning archer who is legally blind and he says he just aims at the same spot on fuzzy circle in the distance.
Where the magnification really helps is in variable or darker lighting conditions. If the target starts blending into the background because there isn’t enough light, then it can be a real struggle without magnification.
Identification is where it really shines.
Good video. Have you considered trying it with a 3rd option: red dot + 3x magnifier?
It would just cost me good money to buy a setup I am not likely to use. :) But I can ask around and see if I have any friends using that setup. I think that the proliferation of the LPVO has made the dot and magnifier less useful, honestly.
I'd like to see this test done again but with a comparable magnifier behind the red dot.
I just don't have one because money.
Yes, I would too.
You mention molotov cocktail, but what about these lasers? I've seen a 5 watt burn through wood. Would that qualify as imminent bodily harm and could you shoot them?
Papi Maximus
It’s a good question. In my book if someone is trying to take my eyeball I should be able to shoot them. I’d be curious of the legalities.
Yes, a high powered laser pointed at someone's eyes fits the legal definition of deadly force. Blindness is indisputably "or serious bodily harm."
i have a 8.5 inch 300 blk and mine is zeroed at 50 yards to but i have a sightmark pro 7 power flip to the side magiflier so i can easily hit a target at 100 yards i have my rifle zerod with barnes 110 grain tac tx ammo with is the most deadly 300 ammo it is
I do have a question for you on your stance on muzzle brakes vs the A2 flash hider.
I’d go with flash hider for 5.56. It’s such a wimpy cartridge even with exceptionally light rifles I could probably fire full auto with 80-90% grouping being on someone’s face at home defense range and I’ve shot only like 3-4 shots from an AR-15 but it’s like half the recoil of a 9mm carbine rifle, which really isn’t much either... and people can easily get crazy tight groupings at full auto with an MP5 9mm with only a few magazines to practice (recent video titled something “is full auto good for home defense?”)
Farther out or for big calibers you’d want muzzle break (but also remember you don’t want muzzle break for indoor shots because it’s stupidly loud). So if you have maybe .50 Beowulf then maybe muzzle break it (if you’re planning to use outside). That’s specifically since you mentioned A2 flash hider on a self defense video (if this was target practice or competition then I’d switch it and say almost always muzzle break or suppressor and never flash hider).
@@jakegarrett8109 I have 3 are platform rifles and I currently run a A2 on my 5.56 and have a fishbone style break on my arm in 7.62x39 with a bull barrel, and the same one on my AR in .308 and they significantly reduce felt recoil
Shield Wolf Sounds like you got a good setup on each one (the AR-10 .308 was exactly what I was thinking when I mentioned bigger calibers too but didn’t know if you’d have one of those since most people just have Armalite model 15’s). I’d leave them like that unless you wanted suppressors but otherwise without a 1000% infringement tax and being added to the first door kicking confiscations I’d skip submitting to the government any taxes on a muffler and just go with what you got, sounds like good setups to me.
Personally I don't think 5.56 needs a muzzle brake at all. It already has next to no recoil.
@@ASPextra my 7.62x39 now has less felt recoil than the 5.56.
I learned at several Stages in Shooting Competitions, that RedDot are not faster, if you are not forced in some weird positions.
But the moment you are forced to shoot from a compromited platform, it is faster.
The problem you get with LPVOs is the EyeBox, that fucked me so often, that i changed from my S&B PMII Shortdot to RedDots for Competition and SelfDefense.
watching the tip of your weapon, there was clearly a difference in movement between when you were standing and when you put your elbows down (when shooting with the red dot). I wonder if the misses were more about that than the gun aimed high.
My only hangup with taking 100 yard shots, is I can’t think of a reason why I would need to, With my home defense rifle. My home defense rifle is an8.5” 300blk sbr, if a riot shows up, or something crazy out side the home happens, I’m going to grab my 16” 5.56 or 18” .308 both with lpvo’s. With a two gun quick access safe under the bed, its not like I wont have time to grab the better suited tool. That being said I am more than open to hearing why that won’t work as well as I think it will, should there be any actual valid reasons.
Home defense is great and all, but the 2nd amendment is about overthrowing a corrupt government. You should be proficient at reaching out and touching someone.
Eric James agreed. Defense against tyranny is one of the main reasons my 16” lpvo equipped outside the home rifle is still 5.56 and not 6.5 grendel, for common ammunition etc.
Yeah consider this not your home defense gun but your homestead and EOTW gun.
Active Self Protection Extra that makes more sense! I’ve had an lpvo on my outside the home gun for a while now, and completely agree with them for that role. Thanks for clarifying.
Here is my reason why I think red dot and magnifier is better than lpvo,
First, cheaper, faster target acquisition at close range, easier use, and most importantly, I chose a red dot corresponding to normal spread using normal ammo that perfectly covers only the dot, so that I’ll be able to see the spread and change accordingly.
If for example a rifle has a spread of 2 moa, you get 2 moa dot and make sure it’s center Ed in the pattern, so every shot you take you’ll know you’ll hit what you’re aiming for.
1971, I was out shooting ground squirrels that were digging in an irrigation canal bank. I had a .270 Winchester with a 4x scope and improvised bipod. My partner using 7x binoculars says there’s one!
Me: Where
Partner: See the brush pile
Me: Where
Partner: See the log sticking out the left side
Me: Where
Partner: see the first branch stub sticking up
Me: yes
Partner: see the second stub
Me: yes
Partner: see the third stub
Me: yes
Partner: It isn’t
Me: Held on center, boom. Hit dead center . The rifle was sighted in for 275 yards which was maximum point blank for deer to about 300-325 yards.
Oh man, .270 would turn squirrels into mist!
Active Self Protection Extra it was head and tail with nothing in the middle.
Marines from 2003 and earlier qualifying on a man sized target at 500 yards with iron sights: "Optics? Magnification? What's that?"
And Marines in WWII did work with M1 Garands, though we'd never go back to those either.
Accuracy of any mechanical device is equal to each other. It's physics and trigonometry. Granularity (detail), however, is not.
I was shootinga today and hit over and over again 12” by 12” steel target at 100 yards outdoors free hand with a Tavor bull pup then a Bulgarian AK using Aimpoint mini red dot for both. Rifle is so much easier at 100’ then a pistol at 25’. That’s why I think pistol training should be 70 to 80 percent of practice time for a civilian anyway. I use an Aimpoint 3X flip away magnifier for farther distances. Takes o e second to flip behind red dot for distance. I think that’s a better choice then a LPVP.
I ran a 1-4 S&B Short dot in my issue G3 on my last German Government Sponsored Trip to Afghanistan, before I went private. It was the best Option for my Mission back than, with mostly longer ranges and bad guys thinking all we ran was 5.56 ;) the same scope sits on my personal Civilian G3 clone today, 10 years later, ready for another war. Where I live now a 5.56 is enough, so my go to is an M4 style rifle with an aimpoint M4s and 3x magnifier. Great out zu 100 for PID and to 300 to ruin some bad Dudes day, . Btw S&B makes a True 1-8 Short dot but they charge a pretty Penny , cause th ey can ;!
mmmm G3 goodness!
You take that shot at the guy throwing a Molotov cocktail 300 yards away, you are going to prison
No, you're really not.
@@ASPextra
Oh really?
Got any cases of anyone doing anything like this?
You're feeding your own fantasies
@@theimmortal4718 Is that person with a molotov a threat of death or serious injury to someone? Yes? Good shoot, period.
@@immikeurnot
You sure about that?
We have people getting arrested for pulling guns at 3 feet and not even shooting. And you think shooting someone 3 blocks away is an open and shut case of justified homicide, somehow?
That shits hard enough to defend at 3 feet.
@@immikeurnot
Not to mention, that asshole will probably be surrounded by a bunch of his asshole friends. They'll tell the cops that you're a sniper who shot their innocent friend and that they were minding their own business, "peacefully protesting" when you shot them in cold blood.
"AimBot Botkin" kid can possibly assist in this undying argument with his unlimited budget of carbines/SBRs/pistols/shotguns. I may have to watch it in slo-mo just to keep up. Some of us swear he takes energy drinks through an IV bag, bypassing the filtering organs before making a video.
Lucas Thotkin'
@@CoryHobbs2178 Yup...that guy.
Greetings John, it’s been a while. Good to see you Sir. How is your fitness journey going?
Meh. COVID ruins everything.
I started shooting red dot optics before LPVO even existed. Hostage target at 100 yards is something I wouldn't want to do with a red dot.
And for the haters, I include red dots, "holo" sights and the rest like reflex sights in the same category of "red dot" because functionally they're completely identical. That said, I quit running EOTech in particular a long time ago because the battery life was terrible. If I'm buying a "red dot", it's going to be an Aimpoint because not only are they bomb-proof, but you just leave the damn thing turned on constantly and change the battery annually.
Battery life for the aimpoint is amazing for sure.
Just have both...I run a illuminated reticle 1-8x24 with an offset lightweight open reflex/dot. It weighs less than some junk people put on their rifles...
Man, having seen people put a Snoopy Sno Cone Machine on their gun, you got that right!!
Looks like training and practice will help you on either a red dot or LVPO
The church shooting in Texas, the guy came out and was putting shots on the guy across the road? I can't remember if the distance was ever said but I'd assume it wasn't even 20 yards away.
It was super dynamic and he hit him from a car, no idea how far the distance was.
Active Self Protection Extra meant to say that I’m sure his shots were over 20yrds but no idea.
John had 3 cups of coffee this morning
I CAN SMELL THE COLOR NINE!
Active Self Protection Extra 😳😂🤙🏽
I think it’s because you’re holding the carbine like a rifle, low, and buried in your chest. If it was higher on your shoulder you wouldn’t have to break your neck so much to get your check on the stock.
And take the awful situation like in the Texas church mass shooting or even the awful Las Vegas shooting.
Shooting someone or better yet having the ability to neutralize a threat at significant distance is crucial. And they don't necessarily have to be shooting at you or causing you harm they could be harming others at a large distance which we as legal responsible gun owners have the right to protect ourselves and others alike in situations such as that. Makes sense. 👍
"... having the ability to neutralize a threat at significant distance is crucial."
Not true AT ALL for quite a lot of people. It depends on your specific situation, but after watching lots of John's surveillance footage for years on his main channel, I can safely say that if you live in an urban or city environment, then statistically speaking you need to be optimally prepared for short to somewhat medium distances. The chances of you having to deal with long distance situations is highly unlikely. Oh, and also giving the Las Vegas shooting as a good example to justify your erroneous point of view is not at all very well thought out. If you were in the crowd and were attempting to shoot back at Paddock who was on the 32nd floor, not only would you have a hell of a time trying to make such as accurate shot in a chaotic situation, but you also would be putting a lot of other people's lives in danger who are in other hotel rooms in close proximity to his. In addition, keep in mind that most people did not know precisely where the shots were coming from, so you first have to detect your target before you can engage. Overall, that is definitely a situation where you focus on personal preservation and not on fighting back.
@@OverTheVoids stop over thinking things keyboard natzi
Geeees.
Understand the context of a point being made before trying to belittle someone over "tactics".
Trust me I GET IT ALL BEEN THERE DONE THAT
It was a point made nothing more nothing less.
And... If you happen to have the skills, training, equipment, and ability to do what needs done - do it. Granted I get it, most people do not have that ability on a day to day. All I was doing was making a reference to distance not the actual circumstances of being 30+ floors up behind glass.
Again, don't pound the keyboard and try to put others down while hiding behind said keyboard. Why don't "we" stop causing fights and such with everyone trying to make vaild points try to understand that others have thought and others have training as well believe it or not and others may just be trying to make conversation 👍
Thanks for the update and pep talk
@@OverTheVoids "Not true AT ALL for quite a lot of people." Needing to shoot anybody ever is "not true AT ALL for quite a lot of people."
If you find yourself in a defensive shooting, you're experiencing a statistical anomaly. Why plan for the most common of uncommon of anomalous situations???
@@immikeurnot It's the same thought process as insurance. The likelihood of needing insurance is very small for a lot of situations that you pay insurance providers to cover you for. However, those circumstances are still great enough that it's worth having the coverage on the off chance that it will happen. Knowing how to defend yourself using lethal protection is like that. The chance of using it is low, but for the specific circumstances that are high enough in society overall, it's worth having the "insurance" for them in case you are one of the lucky ones. However, there are some issues that are so rare that's it's not even worth considering.
@@jessicabenson9017 I understood the context of what you were saying, which was explicitly stated in your comment, and it was a REALLY bad point to make because it is not true. Also, this is the internet buddy. Whether or not I want to hide behind a keyboard in not in my control. I do not know where you live so I cannot walk up to your door and have a face to face conversation with you. This is my only option to converse.
On top on that, the "aggression" is due to the fact that I see way to many people in this community like you making nonsensical points and end up causing problems for people who are looking for information on how to be a better self defender. There is way too much misinformation and bad advice given by most people in both the anti-gun and gun communities.
John, does your LPVO have a bullet drop compensator?
It has mil dots in this reticle.
If we’re talking about the end of the world we should practice cardio as well haha
What was that? Is the question: does magnification help you see further out? John, I love and support you. Hell, I bought POM on your word alone because you've earned my respect. Am I missing something about this video? I'm sure I'm the asshole, but I don't get it.
It's just what the title suggests: can we get hits with a RDS at 100 yards on a home defense gun? This is a series on what works and what doesn't on home and homestead defense rifle set up.
If you can afford a quality Lpvo then get one. If you can't stick with a quality red dot 👍.
Awkward every time I see a left handed rifle shooter. Thanks for the great video!
McCloskey's house was absolutely not a "McMansion". It was an actual. mansion by any reasonable definition.
This is why I say both! I use an LPVO with a canted red dot, and train train train
It's an option for sure, but that takes training too!
I keep seeing everyone with the .300 blackout and I wonder how do people afford to shoot it with the cost per round. This is why I built an AR-15 chambered in 7.62x39 with a bull barrel
Heck during the pandemic it's not really more than 5.56 right now!
@@ASPextra hell .22 if you can find it right now is expensive.
I shoot cheap shit ammo in mine for training, but mostly shoot a 5.56 rifle. The vast majority of trigger time carries over because they're the same platform with minor differences in specifics.
Problem with the 7.62x39 ARs is the magwell is too straight for them to feed reliably. The 7.62x39 has too much taper in the case for it and the long, straight mag well on a standard AR lower to be happy together.
Eotech on my ar15 LPVO on my ar10
Push-Pull Because The Ghost Of Pat Rogers Compells Us ❤
Yes, Pat.
You could run both with an LPVO on top and a red dot canted at 45 degrees.
Takes away the nimbleness of the rifle
@@donh1572
Jerry Miculek would disagree.
@@JoeyIngles three gun competition is not the same as clearing rooms and carrying a gun all day
@@donh1572
Reckon that’s true, too.
I think it would be more fun to take the molotav cocktail than the guy holing it.
Thanks for the pointer for us Left hander's that use right handed semi rifles. Now how many right hander's will imitate that bracing and blast the spent brass off the wall and into their faces?!? LOL
You have seen more self-defense shootings most (possibly more than anyone else on the planet but I digress) What is the longest range self-defense shooting you have ever seen that has actually happened?
Non LE? Oh, around 40 yards I think. But we're entering into a new era of mobs and whatnot, too.
I see some professionals going with a LPVO always at maximum zoom and an offset red dot for close in
Yeah I have seen that too, would seem a fixed power scope would fill that role better but I mean, that setup will work.
Or a set of 45 degree canted iron sights for a quick change to close in without having to futz with a lvpo magnification setting and taking hands off a shooting position.
@@90whatever literally the same thing but a red dot instead of irons on the 45 deg mount. just a quick flip of the rifle to switch between the two.
@@JerradAdams Tell that to my broken RMR clone that I banged against a door jamb in a carbine class I was taking as it was hanging off the side of the rifle..metal canted BUIS are what I use now instead as if I bang them up they seem to take more abuse plus easier to replace if I totally f*** them up.
@@90whatever maybe "RMR clone" was the problem there ;-) I hear you though brother. Nothing like good old iron sight backups. The batteries never run out.
Welcome to the MOG, here in the beautiful Bakara Market, where everybody you see, and many you don't, pose a threat. Target ID is paramount. We've come a long way since 93........LPVOs, gas piston HK rifles, M22 Barretts in any caliber you want.............Howzat? You want 300PRC? Well step right over here. Add in some modern day CSASS & SDMRs, M27s & M38s, and away we go!
We are embarrassed by the riches of choice we have!
Do an eotech w/ g33 or their new 5x
Eotech plus QD flip to side magnifier is my go to.
@@JerradAdams same I love it. Never used a lvpo though
With a 25 yard zero I can hit out to 400 yards easily with a red dot
No thanks. Not happening when liability is at stake. I don't trust the variability of these tools at that distance and this is a great example of why. John didn't take out the target on the first shot. IRL, he is responsible for where that bullet goes.
NFW I'm taking a shot at human target 100 yards away with a red dot; not with my eye sight and not with the greater-than-MOA accuracy of an AR. Not unless every human in the field of fire is an enemy.
I won't even try to kill a ground hog at 100 yards with my AR. I have better tools for that purpose; namely a bolt action .223 with an awesome scope and half-MOA accuracy at 100 yards.
You could always have both and just run the variable main scope with a offset red dot. Now you have a gun that can reach out and clear cqc. It really is the optimal set up. Expensive but very versatile. If you really wanna go mad dog, add a rail mounted laser range finder and you will be hitting out to 600 and 700 with little issue depending on your set up and caliber.
Yup. It also elevates the red dot to a perfect height for night vision or when using a respirator.
Are you still doing jujitsu john?
Nobody is doing BJJ in AZ right now because gyms are all closed. I miss it!
Trying to zero for 300blk supers and subs is like trying to find different ways to solve a rubiks cube. Zero for your supers and then just holdover a whole lot for subs? Zero for subs then hold under for supers? Zero for both by making the supers hit a bit high and the subs a bit low (Costa Ludus technique)?
And then once you have that set...
Oooh your ammo isn't in stock anymore and the ammo that is in stock is expensive, may have a different ballistic coefficient, different loading, or weight from your zeroed round.
Not one casing sat on your arm 😳. So many burns ...
Bro you don't have to milk out these weird ass obscure legally questionable fantasy scenarios.
Just say I wanna be good at killing shit! You're an American it's your right!
The McCloskey's house isn't a "McMansion." It's an actual old fashioned mansion, that they've been working on restoring for years.
A McMansion is a large cookie cutter home that is churned out by builders (said to be "mass-produced" like McDonald's food). If you're going to use the term, you should make an effort to apply it correctly. Language is the bedrock of our civilization, so words/terms have an actual meaning and it matters how they are used. That's why the crazy left is trying to subvert language by changing so many definitions in recent years. It's another attack on Western Civilization, which they despise. Don't help them, even inadvertently. Thanks.
Might be a bit pedantic, but okay.
@@ASPextra Guilty as charged, but we all have our pet peeves.
Who is Pat Rogers?
soldiersystems.net/2016/05/04/bcm-remembers-pat-rogers/
@@ASPextra I honestly had not heard of him advocating the "insert, pull" method, but have been doing that for years.
AS LONG AS YOUR D.A. ISN'T A TREASONOUS DEMOCRAT POLITICIAN ON THE TAKE!!
Ugh.
Lol. "If they're shooting at you from 100 yards." Uh yeah. No shit, Sherlock. If it's a SHTF scenario, all bets are off anyway. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take away from that early portion of this segment.