Is A Red Dot On A Rifle Faster Than An LPVO At Home Defense Distances?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ต.ค. 2024
- Please thank Magtech for bringing us today’s video of Is A Red Dot On A Rifle Faster Than An LPVO At Home Defense Distances?! Check them out at get-asp.com/ma... also, go drop a like on their FB page at / magtechammo
Dry Fire Challenge FB Group: get-asp.com/as... and sub to the ASP Extra channel for more on getting better as a self-defender: / activeselfprotectionextra
ASP merch is now in stock in the store…go get a newly designed limited edition phone case! get-asp.com/store
Don’t forget to subscribe to the main channel for daily narrated lessons of real defensive encounters: / activeselfprotection
Our Facebook page has TONS of good info for self-defenders: / activeselfprotection
If you value what we do at ASP, would you consider becoming an ASP Patron Member to support the work it takes to make the ASP Extra videos like Is A Red Dot On A Rifle Faster Than An LPVO At Home Defense Distances?? get-asp.com/pa... or get-asp.com/pa... gives the details and benefits.
Attitude. Skills. Plan.
(music in the outro courtesy of Bensound at www.bensound.com)
![[UNCUT] บอสพอล แผลงฤทธิ์ บอสพระ-นักร้อง ก. โดนแฉยับ! I คนดังนั่งเคลียร์ I 21 ต.ค. 67](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XKf6HeftoPI/mqdefault.jpg)
Does that count as a realistic test? Won’t it be more realistic to be moving or shooting at angles from behind cover whilst mounting the rifle instead of having it ready in the shoulder (such as opening a door?)
We can do all of that, too. The simple process here is to see if the process of acquiring an acceptable sight picture and getting a shot on an appropriate target is faster or not.
Active Self Protection Extra VTAC barricade time!
I would imagine it's much easier to impose cross hairs over a target rather than a dot.
If both eyes are open and your looking at the threat, when you bring the gun up to your eyes the cross hair is right there center mass. I'm more use to cross hairs from years of deer hunting, I've always looked through my hunting scope with both eyes open, impose the hairs on the deer then close my left eye for the precise heart shot lol.
Not for home defense work it's not. The VTAC barricade was designed by SGM Lamb, who I respect highly and whose mission was ingrained in assaulting structures, not defending homes.
@@ASPextra Respectfully. John, all these people watched your video. I can only speak for myself, but I would bet you a dollar that most of these people criticizing you would agree with me here. We like your videos. Your breakdowns are great dude. We arent griping because we are trolls, we are griping because we care about and respect your content and you do a GREAT job man. But YOU are the ones that show the videos and have all the great sources on this information that we look at, then see a video like this and are like "ummm according to what ASP puts out that is NOT how a fight goes." So we just believe this was not an accurate and fair assessment brother. You proved under good circumstances that the LPVO and RDS are comperable, but how many videos have you put out that show the good guys in less than ideal conditions with less than ideal lighting, at closer, at further ranges? Taking rounds, shitting themselves trying to hug cover because hate is being laid down on them. I don't recall a video of yours, maybe there are one or a few, where someone stood still in broad daylight and fired at a target that wasn't moving, because that doesn't sound like a fight. It sounds more like an execution.
Correct me if I am wrong, but it appears that you tried to just make a quick video to prove a point, but the point is on a topic that is much bigger and should be covered fully or not covered at all man. We are all bored as fuck with this covid bullshit at home man. We have the time to see a full breakdown of the advantages and disadvantages of both LPVO and RDS. I just think you did a disservice to a subject that is much more complex than this.
Red dot, especially eotech, is faster when you do NOT have a perfect cheek weld and are not in ideal positions and/or on the move. It's just because of the scope tube / shadow. Love LPVO's though for mid to extended ranges. Red dot is also at 1x- there's never an "oops", I accidentally left it on 6x.
Atf released a letter that said use is not redesign. Shouldering is legal.
Sorry if you were just making a joke
I’m betting joke
I was confused there too, most certainly had to have been a joke..
He wasn't joking, he called it a "legal gray area" in response to other similar comments. Wait. . . so that means he showed that a red dot is so much faster than an lpvo, that it makes up the difference from not shouldering your weapon!
I don’t think an LPVO is hopelessly slower than a red dot, but I do have to think it is somewhat slower in situations where you actually have to process where the target is while aiming (moving targets, quickly developing situations, etc.)
It depends a lot on the LPVO. Some of them are pretty indistinguishable from a red dot in use.
Completely agree. LPVO’s are ideal for sporting purposes. Military personnel has found a use for them on their DMR’s. For civilians concerned with home defense red dots are the best option. That’s not to say you can’t get the job done with an LPVO, you can, but a red sot seems better suited for the reasons you stated.
I think this is only proving if you can sight align the weapon decently at that range you can make hits. Could do the same thing with a pistol with no sights at all. Doesn’t really prove anything about optic choice
And that's the thing. It is all about shooter. Not about weapon or gadgets.
If you are trained properly it doesn't matter if you use red dot or LPVO, or even just Iron sights. Your efficiency will be about the same
Did you seriously not shoulder the brace and expect us to believe that you didn't think that it would affect things? Even if you did shoulder the brace, would it fit you as well as the real stock? Certainly you have the capability of obtaining a red dot equipped carbine in the same caliber and setup as the lpvo. This "test" is bullshit. All you've "proven" is that in order for an lpvo to be as fast as a red dot, you need to introduce limiting variables to only the red dot.
Dude, every advantage was given to the red dot. Every single one.
@@ASPextra Oh really? What advantages were given to the red dot? Are you saying LOP doesn't matter? Or do you normally use your carbine with the stock completely collapsed and only extended it to give the red dot an advantage in this test?
I put the stock in the position that I get appropriate eye relief from the LPVO. RDS has infinite eye relief and was not a factor in this test. Simple.
My 2 Cents : for a dedicated HD /CQC/CQC carbine in an Urban/suburban area nothing beats a Aimpoint thats always on ,locked and loaded ready to roll. If you are Living in a ranch/Farm or just out in the sticks, an 1-6 or 1-8 makes sense.
Trijicon Accupoint. Always on, no batteries, 1-4x.
Some LPVOs are more "red dot-like" at their lowest setting than others.
I can attest that I'm just as fast up close with my 16" AR with the Accupoint as I am with my 10.5" with an Aimpoint T1. If I'm any faster on target with the shorter gun, it's a weight thing and not down to the optics.
People who say that run low end LPOVs which actually limit what a real LPOV is capable of.
Acss be workin
Why would you say that we never shoulder a pistol Brace? The ATF ruled that it was legal to shoulder the brace! Has a ruling been made that I'm not aware of?
legal gray area still.
There is no grey area here. The ATF Cleary stated that shouldering isn't redesign and it's perfectly legal to do so.
This wasn't an experiment, it was an exhibition of bias. The advantage of a real stock, adjusted to appropriate LOP, is too great for this to be taken seriously.
I adjusted the brace to the same length, and RDS has infinite eye relief. Same motion, same objective.
I run an LPVO on my all-purpose rifle.. but I have DD fixed irons set on 45 degree mounts for faster target aquisition at closer range. It was very easy to get used to after a few range trips. A minimalst stock made shooting the rifle in a canted position much easier and more comfortable.
Needs to be same gun, same ammo for real test. This one is invalid.
Not really. Needs to be significantly similar. And these are.
@@ASPextra Does the length and weight of the gun not play a role? I thought specifically in speed tests it would be a factor. Caliber is a low priority item for test such as this. Also, trigger has to be considered an important parameter.
You'd think that a shorter rifle and a lighter rifle would be faster as a default. That just wasn't the case in this instance.
@@ASPextra Just thinking as a professional tester (which I have been for 15+ years). Negative or failure is also a result :). In a perfect test it would be change of optics on the same gun. Still, towards what you were trying to show - it is still a result, just not without some items of the test that people can pick on - as I showed above. Thank you for the video regardless, it is education not just ot me but to many viewers.
@@RuBearUSA Yes weight matters, but the biggest problem I have with this is rifle fit.
The difference in stocks was way too great for this to be valid. The only thing I took from this is that you won't hesitate to present your personal bias as objectivity.
I moved the stock outward, and the RDS has infinite eye relief.
The way you speak now is very different than how you used to to speak. Now you seem like you always want to be right(very condescending) instead of just teaching people the best way or different ways.
Dude maybe laugh a little. And maybe watch more than one video.
@@ASPextra ive watched almost every video and have been watching for years. Thats my point. Since youve grown in popularity and expertise your sense of self seems to have inflated. You have a very condescending tone when people are wrong. Instead of just pointing out why they are wrong you make it snippy and it seems childish. At least it does to me. Its just off putting when people use their knowledge to belittle people to make them selves look better.
@@ASPextra on another note i usually fully agree with every assessment and review you do. Its just something different about how you are coming off now and i just wanted to point it out. Cause everyone should take a step back and self assess how they are projecting themselves into the world.
I do get tired of people repeating dumb tropes that have no basis in reality and that occasionally leaks out. No question.
@@ASPextra i 100% agree with that.
John you’re standing in front of a piece of papper 5 yards away already aligned try some alternate firing positions and with movement, dots are better
Someone doesn't understand what testing is, obviously. Also, for the VAST majority of home defenders, private citizens, how often are they going to ever need to shoot from rollover prone or on the move? Exactly?
Active Self Protection Extra Ah got it, but testing optics is literately what I do, thanks for the greats vids love your channel.
How about you get your optic, be it a red dot or an LPVO. Then you train with it. You will get really good with YOUR rifle.
You're not wrong, but again, these are ADMINISTRATIVE decisions that we can make and consider. So why make a sub-optimal choice under the wErKs fEr mE dogma when we can make a better choice while the sun is shining and we're not under deadly stress?
@@ASPextra glazing over the training and hiding behind the works for me argument that he didnt make is strawmanning john. You are better than that.
It's not a straw man. Saying "get either and train," when we can really think about which is best and why, rather than just saying "there is no difference" when there is, is lazy.
I agree! Would have been a much more equal test if John shot his best with his rifle and the "expert instructor" shot the test using his rifle. If you have been around this channel long enough you will start to see a theme, John will always try to convince you that his way is the best. Honestly, I laugh at the whole concept of a "home defense AR".....
@@Mr_Glock19 Also, "home defense" doesnt just include inside your house . If someone is 100 yards away and popping rounds at your home you are fully within your god given right to defend yourself. A year ago I wouldnt call it irrational to say that is a silly situation and please show me one instance of that happening. I live in wisconsin, a short drive from where antifa just started blasting at a local cop in his home. To scoff at an AR... smh
I thought that you can shoulder a pistol brace now.
Its a very big grey area. Atf said it wasnt illegal, but that doesn't mean someoke who doesn't know any better cant try to arrest you for it. Its complicated
I thought a mob of people throwing molotov cocktails at cops and buildings was a riot but its not. Welcome to the modern age where nothing makes sense.
The BATF change the rule about shouldering the pistol some time ago. How you hold the pistol does not changing the design of it. On shoulder SBR, 1/2" away from shoulder pistol. Even the government figure out how stupid that was.
@@HolyDiver1969 just because the feds said it is good or bad does not keep a state from prosecuting you under their laws. just as a state saying Marijuana is OK does not keep the feds from arresting you.
Raz Pavel 100% correct.
Red dots don’t have eye relief.
Well, to be clear, they DO, it's just infinite. ;) still gotta see inside the glass, and at 1x and shooting home defense distances the LPVO need not have full eye relief to do the trick.
this, and for me nothing is faster than the wide and forgiving box of an Eotech. Don't have to worry about getting in the eye relief zone like with an LPVO during positional shooting. Try it both right and left handed too...
Active Self Protection Extra I wonder how much the POA/POI shifts when you’re not completely centered behind the LPVO. I think that’s one of the bigger selling points with red dots is that even if your cheek weld isn’t perfect, or you have to shoot in awkward positions, you can still put the dot center mass and get center mass hits.
Remember that "zero parallax" red dots do, indeed, have SOME parallax up close. Just little. At home defense distances I don't think it would be a big difference.
This test only tests how fast you can bring up the gun and shoot. Anybody can point a gun and fire and hit their target in 5-7 yards becuz you don’t need to aim. A more accurate representation would be if you can actually see through the lpvo and identifying your target with the lpvo scope before you fire which I would imagine takes lots of training and muscle memory and repetition to get that perfect cheek position for perfect eye relief.
It really doesn’t. A 1x LPVO is identical to a RDS at that task.
Hmmm. Seems to me getting the correct eye relief on a LPVO would take slightly longer than not on a red dot (especially if the gun wasn't already almost on target like in the demo).
I had my AR at the range recently and even sitting on a bench it took time to get the right eye relief (and it's a Burris MTAC not some airsoft thing) where it of course doesn't on my red dot rifles.
But if you practice with both, as you should, maybe it's less of a problem. I admittedly don't have lots of practice with it.
But if I had to grab a rifle right now out of the safe (close quarters intention), I think I'd choose the red dot because I could get a sight picture faster. If I was shooting at distance, LPVO then. At least until I practice more.
The gun is at low ready both times. Completely out of the eye box, no cheek weld.
@@ASPextra Probably due to my rather limited practice with it then. Cause if I was sitting at a bench and taking a few moments to get right eye relief I wouldn't do it any quicker under stress.
Scope is mounted well too, not too far forward/back.
I plan on getting some practice at range this weekend so I'll see how it goes.
Point shooting doesn't require a sight.
That is not what I am doing.
@@ASPextra all good. 👍
John, I love ya man, and all you do, and believe in you...but you're gonna hate me for this. That was an unrealistic test, what works on the range might not be the same during total chaos, moving targets, etc., and I think one could do just as well with no sights, or even just looking over open sights in your on-range experiment. But if it works for you and you believe in it, that's great. Having said that, the LPVO is probably a great, perhaps "superior" dual-purpose home defense gun when one might have to go outside and engage outside targets, especially in a rural home, like where I live. Still, I'm sticking with my open/iron sighted AK74 and M16A1 for a home defense rifle. (semi auto version of course) I've attended quite a few Appleseeds, and can hit out to 200 yards easily with iron sights. If I need or want an optic, I'll grab my PSL or replica No.4(T) SMLE. :) Cheers. Keep up the good work, enjoyed the video.
It is a single-variable test. It is 100% realistic. I tested two sighting systems under identical conditions.
@@ASPextra Not even close to a single variable test. The difference in stocks alone invalidates the entire thing.
The issue is eye relief. Standing on a square range where your cheek weld and length of pull is already set and checked won't show that problem. I've encountered the eye relief problem enough times trying to get a quick shot while hunting to know it can be a real issue. I think there's a reason pro door kickers don't use LPVOs.
They don't? I've seen them using LPVOs.
Why would you be out in the field without setting up your LOP properly before you even stepped away from the truck?
it comes down to training. If you've only ever used a red dot and then slap a LVPO on your rifle to test, obviously, what you are used to will be the faster. The army is replacing ACOG's with LPVO's by the way. LPVOs are the future, especially ones that have a true 1x
in reality it is all about training. I run a red dot on my AR9 for steel challenge. I am pretty quick with it. I have a 1-4 LPVO on my "defense" AR during a training class I tested the LPVO to see if would actually be good at those distances. I found that after a couple strings, bringing it up from a sling I was just as fast because my mind figured out where the recital was going to be in my field of view and muscle memory took over from that point. As long as you train frequently with you defense rifle you will be fine either way. Me personally it does not matter, what ever is closer but if I gave a recommendation I would say LPVO simply because you don't have to turn it on when you need it right now.
Boom!
For most of us it's going to boil down to two things. Battery life and cost. Acceptable quality red dots can be had for under $300 and battery life measured in years, and without the hassle of turning it on (if you remember). Or worse, leaving it on and it being dead when you need it. The compared Short dot comes in at close to $3,000. Cheap LPVO's just aren't as forgiving as higher end stuff. Both can work.
LPVO needs no battery. Can be perfectly acceptable in the $400 range.
Wow, we got a very unscientific test here. You set out to compare performance of a red dot vs. LPVO. We saw a test that added the variables of two different firearms (pistol vs. rifle no less!) using possibly different calibers. You should have swapped the optics between the two and tested with both weapons. The shooter was also admittedly quite biased with LPVOs -- a better test shooter would be someone who has almost no experience with either (an iron sight shooter?). Three rounds per optic makes for a statistically insignificant sample size.
Good grief. I made a quick comparison, using similar tools (albeit not identical, they're both ARs set up for lefty's, with a single mission here of getting the gun up and firing a shot) and taking a few shots to see what the change is. I think you're being overly critical.
@@ASPextra Sorry, the engineer in me sometimes slips out.
@@ASPextra Are you trying to say that length of pull doesn't matter?
@@paullinkins8121 Don't be sorry, your right.
I have a 300 blk with a can on it, but shoot 124 partitions. I put a micro red dot on it to limit the bulkiness, and potential for snagging crap when I grab the rifle (sbr so it is a rifle). But 1 power on my rifle with a lpvo is just as fast.
So for me personally I went a LPVO on my newest AR -
1. Astigmatism
2. Already own a couple of Aimpoints.
I also made sure to get a true 1 power to be able to shoot both eyes open. Lastly the quality of the scope makes a big difference with regards to eye relief that I feel will definitely impact speed.
As with anything YMMV.
Paul
You know, Paul, it's interesting. I love 1x LPVO. But this Schmidt Bender 1.5-8x short dot is making me think about whether true 1x is a necessity...
Active Self Protection Extra very interesting. I will be looking forward to more info from you as you shoot it more. I know Schmidt Bender is top of the line. I will receive my Kahles K16i tomorrow and hope to be shooting Thursday. Thanks for everything you do John I really appreciate it! May God continue to bless you and I hope to shoot with you soon.
I have an AR with a LPVO and an AR with an Eotech. I always grab the Eotech equipped rifle. My problem with the LPVO is the additional weight it penalty. And I don't feel like my LPVO is a true 1X. I rarely shoot past 40-50 yards anyway.
Eh. 11oz difference in weight max, and yes ounces make pounds but how far are you humping your rifle for home defense and homestead defense?
@@ASPextra I can bring the lighter weight up on target quicker and hold target longer, plus I feel it in the shoulder having it slung during my weekly 2 hour training class.
I think your first assertion won't hold water on the clock, but your second and third might. Just don't think that is a big priority in reality.
Yeah, on the clock it's most likely be the same, but not after 20-30 shots from the low ready. I'm fairly slightly built.
As someone currently running a red dot on my HD rifle, I think that one of the biggest advantages of the LPVO is the fact that you do not have to turn it on before utilizing the rifle, adjust the brightness setting or worry about battery life. That black crosshair is always there, and provided you have a light on your defense rifle (You DO have a light, right? You aren't shooting in your house at shadows in the dark?) then the LPVO would be just as good an option AND it allows you the ability to "reach out and touch someone" at range when needed, which is much harder for the red dot to do.
Those thoughts mirror my own.
@@ASPextra This is why I am planning on picking up a Vortex LPVO soon to replace my red dot. Just trying to decide if I just go with the crossfire II or splurge for the Strike Eagle.
The whole "reach out and touch someone" point doesn't make sense if the primary concern is home defense. I mean unless you live in some sort of palace. Legally, in most states you can't shoot people just for trespassing on your property. So unless we're opening this up to SHTF/WROL scenarios, I don't care about reaching out with my home defense gun.
Too much flat range dogma. Too many “instructors” touting flat range SOPs. You don’t even use sights that close. Snap shooting on the flat range saying your really using a sight system is disappointing at best. Door to door, looking down the barrel and instinctively placing shots on target is easy. The speed of any dot or Levon is mute. Medium to long range is where you play that game.
Totally untrue. Access your sights EVERY time. Every SINGLE time. You're not in buttcrackistan where collateral damage is allowable.
Active Self Protection Extra do you have to access your sights as well in a cqc/grappling scenario?
I used to run a aimpoint on my AR15. Made the switch to a Blackhound Optics 1x4 LPVO a year ago and have never looked back.
@@Mangoré1885 never said it was useless. Its currently on a pistol build.
*I PREFER IRON SIGHTS IN DAYLIGHT, BUT I DO KEEP A RED DOT ON MY AR15 AT ALL TIMES. JUST SOMETHING ABOUT IRON SIGHTS.*
I run a Swampfox Trihawk 3X Prism and a 45 degree offset Vortex Venom. Chose this setup for weight and redundancy. Couldn't find and LPVO with good enough battery life for the price of the Swampfox and Venom.
Why does your LPVO need a battery?
@@ASPextra the LPVO I was considering takes a CR2032. Granted, it is not necessary but it helps with my eyes when the reticle is lit.
You were very biased from the start (per your comments). You were using a scoped gun you are accustomed to vs the red dot gun that was borrowed. This was a far stretch from a controlled experiment. -botched from the beginning towards the end result you desired...
I have about 20,000 rounds behind a RDS-equipped rifle, I just don't have one right now.
I have about 1000 rounds through this particular LPVO and rifle.
Active Self Protection Extra You were very biased from the start. You have a Great channel though. Great content! Keep it coming.
Well stated, John. Another factor to take into account is application and versatility. I have an EO Tech w/ 3X magnifier for in close to mid range distances on an 11.5" pistol. I have a LPVO 1-8X on an 18" rifle. Both work just fine at up close and personal distances. My LPVO provides a longer reach in terms of target identification. I'm fast with both. The LPVO is maybe 2 oz heavier. I just have to be a little more precise in lining up with the LPVO to avoid that dreaded shadow.
You said you can't shoulder a brace? ATF says you can?
You are correct.
Have an Eotech or Aimpoint on your gun in the bedroom. Then a 1x4 like the Steiner, etc., on the next one. Then a 1x6 like the Razor or Kahles on the next one, then the 1x8 on the next one, like the VCOG, the NF, or whatever. Then there's the Vortex 1x10, for lots of fun. And all that'll only cost you about 20k or so. Piece of cake.
Easy peasy! ;)
1x prism scopes are an alternative. My Bushnell Lil P is smaller than my Romeo 5.
Other prism advantages:
1) Sharp reticle even with an astigmatism
2) more durable than either red dot or LVPO
3) doesnt require batteries.
Disadvantages:
1) Similar eye relief to a LVPO, so they cant be positioned too far from the shooter's eye.
I use a red dot on my home defense shotgun. It’s a KSG and I run #4 shot on one side and either 00 or slugs on the other. Start with #4. As it happens the Holosun drops right into view as my cheek hits the stock so I’m on target right quick. Not much point using a 1-6x on that rig. With a rifle I’d probably go for a 1-6x so I could take advantage of the range if needed.
I run a red dot on my 1301T
An AGOG with RMR (such as manufactured by Trijicon) would give you the benefits of both.
But the LPVO does the job of both, without the cost.
Wouldnt a red dot wit a magnifier accomplish the same thing and solve more issues?
With more moving parts, batteries, weight, and complexity.
@@ASPextra I do not personally have a military background, but I train with retired special ops soldiers. They all tell me that target acquisition is quicker with the red dot when under fire. I hope to never be in a situation where I am under fire, but one never knows. That is why I ordered the ACOG with RMR.
Well, that's them I suppose. Remember your mission is not theirs. Also, your training is not theirs. And they could be wrong, and their memory could be off. I've never had anyone shooting at me for realsies while behind a rifle, but done more than a little FoF and never noticed a slowing down when 1x on a LPVO when compared to a red dot.
Love the channel and am a subscriber. But this was a poor test. Let’s see two similar carbines/rifles/pistols at an intermediate range. Not trying to be overly critical but this didn’t really prove much.
They are significantly similar, with any and all advantages given to the RDS equipped gun.
Thank you.
went eotech holo just because we had aim points in army and the field of view was so tiny and the dot wasnt as small and precise as the eotech
50+ years ago, one of the last deer that I shot, I may have matched or beaten the split time at about 40-50 yards with a 4-power scope with a big post. The time of the shot was within 15 minutes of first legal shooting and we were in cedar trees in the Missouri Breaks. The deer was running directly away from me and the bullet exited the deer’s nose. I was shooting a .270 Winchester. I only got about the center half of the scope cleared when I touched off the shot.
Light was poor, target running and as the deer was dropping over a knoll I had less than a second before the deer would likely been out of sight.
Gotta love memories like that!
I have the rmr on the 45 degree offset, lpvo sux if h dint have the instant proper eye relief
Not at home defense distances, IMO.
I’ve been running a trijicon mro hd with the 3x magnifier set up and I find it gives me the best or really a good compromise of both worlds.
Thank you for sharing the video. Practice makes perfect.
What? Really? That's it? How about when you're shooting on the move and/or shooting a moving target? How about shooting in unorthodox positions? Or low light? Don't get me wrong, LPVO's are great but they have distinct disadvantages of an eye box and eye relief that, red dots just don't have. This is the kind of video that I would expect of some ignorant newbie who's trying to justify why they don't need training; not from someone that literally has hundreds of video's of how actual shootings go down and who knows full well how sudden and chaotic these things can be.
Just doing a single thing is all. More to come. To me it’s better to talk about each part rather than try to do it all.
I agree that LPVOs are plenty fast up close. If you are comfortable with them, then there is no problem running one on a HD gun.
With that said, this test proves next to nothing. Pretty much any optic (or lack thereof) would have done just fine under this test criteria.
I am just answering the objection that the LPVO is slower at close range. That's all.
I think it only depends on training ur gonna suck with both if you dont train or at least so stuff with it. As trex arms said.
For anyone currently deciding between the 2, check your parallax with both eyes. I can see through my lpvo with my right eye no problem but in offhanded shooting, I can't see anything with my left eye unless I adjust the parallax. Definitely sucks in a house with odd angles.
I kind of doubt you'll really off-shoulder a gun in a home defense situation, honestly.
@@ASPextra I have to be able to switch in my home. The angles are super wierd. But you are right, most home defense situations don't play out in a prolonged firefight at all.
On the other hand, I don't think I would leave that to chance. If that were the case, why own a firearm? It's unlikely someone is going to break in while you're home. Even more unlikely they would also want a confrontation of any kind. I'd rather have the capability and not need it than need it and not have it. I dont use my lpvo for home defense for this specific reason. I prefer an eotech or vortex uh1 because I can use it with both eyes and my astigmatism makes red dots look like crap.
No, if someone is killing your family you're not off-shouldering a rifle, you're rushing the threat and speed is your cover. If no one is killing your family, you're hunkered down and using your best technique. That's about it.
I wasn't looking for an argument, I thought this was a good video showing that an lpvo can be viable at home defense distances. However, I think there should be something said about limitations or drawbacks to certain types of sights/optics. I understand that you study a lot of self defense scenarios, I'm subscribed to your channel so I can gain some of your insight. However, in my specific situation, the lpvo has a drawback that I think would hurt my chances of successfully repelling an intruder. Where I need to get to in order to defend everyone in the home has a stupid corner which if I want to watch, I have to be offhanded or in a position that would be completely exposed. Again this comes with training, practice, knowing your environment, and physical/gear limitations. I thought it would be helpful for someone deciding between the 2 that parallax is something you have to worry about with the lpvo and most holographic sights are considered parallax free.
You don't see special forces using a low power optic for good reason. They use a red dot or Eotech. Do that in a fun house at Gunsite and see how it works out for you.
I have. It works out great. :) and hmmmmmm I’ve seen several SF guys running LPVO. Might not be in some sectors though.
What about low light, which seems likely in home defense?
Less than you might think. Put a light on all long guns.
Fun video. Ultimately, as you say in almost every video, training is key.
Like the video jon, you should do it again, but at night and with a white light, im curious how the speed difference would be at night. I genuinely have almost no experience with an lpvo, but considered switching to one a while back
I am doing some indoor filming next week, I will see what I can do on that.
On the next episode of "stupid internet gun stuff." Red dot is faster than LPVO
Yeah, it's not.
for newbies can you explain "put a can on it and then have a single stamp gun" I assume can is a silencer?
SBR is an NFA tax stamp, silencer (can) is an NFA tax stamp. Going pistol avoids some SBR limitations on transport as well as the registration cost/concern, but it’s a total grey area of administrative interpretation, legally.
Yep, a can is a suppressor or silencer. You have to obtain a tax stamp to own a supressor, assuming it's legal in your state. Costs $200 and 6-12 months of waiting to get a tax stamp.
Usually when somebody says 'it's only a single stamp gun' they are referring to a short rifle that has a pistol brace on it and a suppressor. If all you did was chop the barrel on a normal rifle you would be creating a SBR (short barreled rifle) that requires a tax stamp of it's own. But the pistol brace avoids that tax stamp because now the ATF doesn't classify it as a rifle anymore. There's more to it, but that's the jist.
We get it, you love your LPVO
They are also out in the bright sun. I think indoors with a white light would be diffrent
I think that's a fair complaint, so next time I do it I will do it under fluorescent light and see what happens.
John and Co, thanks for making these videos. I’m leaning towards lpvo now. Which would you recommend for someone who is on a budget and looking for an optic?
Vortex strike eagle 1-6
Primary Arms 1-6x or 1-8x ACSS reticle
So the 1-6 is the zoom levels correct?
I like the new Swampfox Arrowhead on a budget. Primary Arms is a good budget item too. Vortex Strike Eagle.
Papi Maximus $350-$400 price point.
I would wonder if you need a light at radical for that low power optic? If you’re shooting in house, chances are lighting conditions are going to be the best, even with a flashlight attached to the rifle. I know I couldn’t see a unlit radical with just a flashlight very well.
"A light at radical." Not sure what you mean.
@@ASPextra Sorry (Speech to text problem), would you need a "lighted reticle" on the low power scope in low light conditions. I can't see a aiming cross in the dark.
A lot depends on optics and personal proficiency especially in a dynamic environment. Too many variables to make a blanket statement.
This is just a test of equal work in a given situation.
From the comments, it sounds like there's more testing in your future John. And maybe after you use both guns, have another shooter do the same? I think this test would represent someone held up in their bedroom watching the door, but it doesn't represent getting out of that room and trying to clear your house in the middle of the night. If you have other people in the house, and you have to get to them, you can't hold up in one room and wait. I'm wondering how to simulate surprise engagements, and have the results repeatable? Once you go through the "course", the engagement points are not going to be a surprise anymore, and if you change the place of the engagements with the bad guys, then the results are not comparable? Who knows? Have at it:)
you're better with what you train with.
While I believe most people are going to perform best with the equipment they prefer, I have to say that the fastest (close quarters) carbine shooters are USPSA PCC guys. Never have I been to a match and seen anyone rocking a LPVO in competition.
See attached article for the most popular models from 2018
"Red-dot sights are key components in the PCC shooting system. As in 2018, C-More was the most popular model with 19 percent choosing the Railway, and 12 percent using the RTS2. The Holosun 510C was the next most popular choice at around 22 percent. The Trijicon MRO, introduced in 2018, was chosen by 15 percent of the shooters. The Vortex Venom was next at 10 percent with Leupold’s DeltaPoint Pro following behind closely at 9 percent."
I think that’s mission dependent.
@@ASPextra Perhaps if your mission also will require you to engage targets well beyond your home, or for you to leave your home, or if your home is literally a mansion, otherwise I would suggest your aren't really talking "home defense" but perhaps dual purpose.
What would that look like with an EOTECH?... Curious
I don't know that an EOTech would be different than a red dot.
@@ASPextra But it would offer a larger window, which should lead to faster target acquisition. I would think that it would be at minimum slightly faster. Also you would gain parallax free targeting with an EOTech.
The disadvantage would be only 1:1 for the EO without a magnifier. But you are only talking use at 1X, so bumping up the magnification wouldn't matter in your testing. So how about it.. Run the test, and report the times. Would a good to know, and we know you probably have 20-30 EOTechs laying around...lol!! Again curious!!!
Oh wow, John. I'm reading some comments about unconventional shooting positions, moving tgts, bariers, close and far tgt immediate engagements...I can almost see a secondary video to this with those variables with multiple shooters and possibly their own ARs. What says, viewers?
Yeah, one at a time, maybe. I get it that people want me to cover everything all at once, but that's just not feasible in a short format.
This has been done to death
I guess the fact that lpvo have been used and issued since most notably since 2005 and with socom Drills pushing off axis shooting which are about 98% not of what most here commenting need to focus on. Get over it they both have there place
@@ASPextra One a time does sound more feasible and would be a great video I believe. Some, if not most, of us enjoy long videos of shooting stuff with points made across. Thanks, to you and the crew, for everything you all do.
Just use what you like to train with and who cares what the other guy is using. If you practice you will get fast at whatever your using.
I wonder how good old fashioned iron sites would compare?
The Marine Corps stopped training new recruits on irons years ago, and for good reason. Now, that said, at this distance and timing, it will be about the same.
What is the advantage of an LPVO at home defense distances? What advantage of an LPVO have over a red dot/holo, at home defense distances?
That is the better question, and a difficult argument to make for the LPVO.
What are the disadvantages?
Certainly worth considering if someone is in the market for a new optic. I think this falls in the category of better to have a red dot on your rifle then a LPVO at the store. Nonetheless if I'm in the market for a new one I might have to consider a LPVO. Thanks for the video 👏
All you got to do is research, there's great LPV0s for really high end red dots money. Even good low end LPVOs for decent red dot money
Can you this on a vtac barricade and get back to us
Never, ever, ever seen a private citizen use a carbine in that kind of situation. Ever. Once.
@@ASPextra every seen a private citizen need to use magnification to identify/engage a target at distance and callit self defense? Me either.
Never shoulder a pistol brace??? Am I missing something?
@@Mangoré1885 its currently legal to shoulder a pistol brace, though.
It's a gray area.
Seems like iron sights on pistols should also be just as fast and accurate, then, too...
Next on Active self Protection Extra, John will Critique his wife's cooking
To be fair, I am the cook in the family.
@@ASPextra next time on active self protection, john critiques the ironing? I dunno kinda ruined the joke, John
lol
Hopefully you come to Houston soon so I can do a class with you and then you can critique my wife's cooking:-)
Haha fair! I think we're planning Houston for 2021.
My eyes can’t see a red dot so no options for me. LPVO
That's a consideration for sure.
Not fair. If you put a few hundred rounds practice with the red dot, you will be faster. Go to your local USPSA match and see what the PCC guys are shooting... red dots.
1. I have around 20,000 rifle rounds through a RDS.
2. More and more top competitors are running LPVO rather than long scope and offset dot, though some of them still run higher magnification scope and RDS because of weight and the distance their matches require shots (out to 300-500 yards sometimes!). The emergence of 1-10x LPVO is mitigating this. This is a mission driving the gear train question.
3. PCC is all about a featherlight carbine because they're moving and hundredths of seconds count. For home defense, the weight of the rifle is far less of a concern. Not no concern, but you ain't gonna be running all over hell and back with it. :)
Now let's try the same drill in low light conditions. For home defence ya got to factor in a darkened room or hallway.
@@papimaximus95 Sometimes things happen so fast you don't have time to prepare.
I have some range time on an indoor range next week and I will redo this drill under lit conditions. It slows things down but not as much as you think and there's a big cheat here that most don't think of.
Active Self Protection Extra “there is a big cheat here that most people don’t think about”. I know right?! The bad guy isn’t going to need anymore shootin after a hallway full of bootlegged claymores are triggered by the surefire that was turned into a bootlegged detonator. Freakin newb’s, I swear.
@@ASPextra I'll have to guess that you have a carbine mounted light.
Thanks for the proof about speeds! There is way more factors in home defense I believe. chances are it will be dark in a house break in and a reflex/laser could be better (of course a laser you have it pointed down until you are 100% sure or it could be seen as a deterrent so that is a gamble). Highly recommend night lights especially if you have other living things in your house.
Me personally I have a shotgun laser on one of my setups and I practice house drills as we all know our house better than anyone. Also I am willing to bet anyone who hears a cocking shotgun will probably run.
There are more factors for sure. This video was just a simple demonstration.
Why would I want them to run before I can shoot them? Keep a round chambered...
@@Scaliad paperwork/possible jail/prison time/ your gun will be taken and gone possibly forever/ blood everywhere/damage to your house/reputation/career over. Unless it's a last resort it's not as simple as pewpew
@@ASPextra sorry I wasnt trying to 1 up ya. After I made the comment I realized it's a "well duh comment".
@@papimaximus95 why let them see inside? you have the advantage of knowing your house in the dark and can quickly flash on your white light and shoot if warranted. Outdoors yes, the house should be lit up with flood lights. Inside my house it would be dark and my alarm will be blaring.
Between those two and iron sites. Its all going to come down to individual shooter training and up bringing. My pops graduated in the early 60s.. he will never be a red dot guy.. iron sites and cross hairs only..
That's a thing for sure.
I started out red dots on rifles but seeing i may be a better shooter with some edges...
I have a red dot on my home defense rifle and an LVPO on my do it all. Make of that what you will.
Both have a place for sure.
Who would bother to aim in inside the home attacks? Look over the top of the weapon with both eyes concentrated on the target.
Please get good training before you hurt yourself or someone else.
@@russbohman9577 At in house distance, my training makes it easy to look over the top of my shotgun without any mechanical site. Eyes on threat and the rest is training, son.
This is bad form and not good advice.
@@ASPextra 3 seconds. no matter how you train, you have three seconds. Who puts a scope on a shotgun? A red dot needs a battery. With over 50 years of weekly shotgunning, I don't need an optic in any form.
Terrible form, misunderstanding of the problem needed to solve.
Would have been better if you would have engaged all three targets.
Future video amigo. We try to do one thing at a time to show what the realities are.
This was a Horrible test. You can point shoot an A zone at that distance.
Test with an actual degree of accuracy that REQUIRES the optic be used, such as T Zone at 7 yds, or A Zone at 25. Then also be mindful, and consistent with where your starting from on your arc of readiness. For example an engagement ready of 15°. People will game drills subconsciously to get results that validate their predisposition.
But I didn't point shoot either of them. They were all aimed fire. This test is indeed valid.
@@ASPextra First, let me apologize for saying "Horrible", that was rude and I didn't mean to be. Id respectfully ask you to run it again, under the controlled parameters I described, and add a competition factor to it to ensure you're not subconsciously going slower with one vs the other for example on my FB page I ran a #LowReady challenge. Simple, but specific parameters. But when adhered to, "Usually" will produce faster times when run with a Dot. As long as the person running the drill, is trying to achieve a faster time than someone else.
So, an A zone is absolutely a standard of accuracy. A t-box is a smaller one, but that's actually irrelevant. An A zone at 7 yards is a standard home defense distance and target, both the same.
The low ready was put to the same place in both, the bottom of the target.
You didn't hurt my feelings, but thanks for the apology. That was kind.
My eye sight is complete dog shit I can almost never see a dot lpvo all they way for me.
Same Shooter...Same gun for test?
This blog has a link to the letter from the ATF. You can legally shoulder a pistol brace. www.80lowerjig.com/blogs/80-lower-blog/can-you-shoulder-an-ar15-pistol-brace-in-2020/
john, nice comparison, suggestion..........bring the camera in from Nevada, closer to Arizona so we can see you better..........thanks john, nice shootin.......
So, what happened here is that it's literally 110 degrees on the range and if we brought the camera into the sun it overheated in a matter of 2 minutes. So we had to leave it under the overhang. Just was what it was, you know? :)
@@ASPextra ..........great job john, lookin forward to the next vid......keep kool!
I've got a budget 1-4x with a circle for reticle, etched in the glass. It's JUST like a red dot except I have the opportunity to push out the 4x for coyote hunting and "other" needs.
That's why I love a LPVO.
@@ASPextra Right on. And despite mine being budget, it's clear and the 1x is VERY close to true to 1x, great eye relief. Super versatile.
People say that it's slower because they were instructed that "red dots are faster" and just took it for gospel without ever testing it out for themselves. If you can be just as fast with an LVPO at close range, why would you not also accept the long range benefits?
That's kind of my thought.
The biggest failing of LPVO's vs red dots is awkward shooting positions due to any scopes eye box. Although some are much worse than others.
John, does it make you uncomfortable that looking at your rifle makes me sexually excited?
:-)
lol
At CQHD you don’t even need to look at the optic. Would you say laser pointer would be much faster at close range? Great video. Kuddos.
I'm not sure what people are on about with this not being realistic. The video was to show how fast you can react with the difference between sights because of one sight being easier to see than the other, the video was not meant to show how to realistically practice for home defense
Thank you.
Is that really how you dress at home?
It would be better if you did this in a shoot house to simulate a real home scenario---you guys seem high speed enough with being a professional carbine instructor that should be an option.
You actually suggested using a NFA registered firearm and or/item for self defense??????---that is a terrible idea on many levels that I am not going to touch.
There are zero legal issues with using an NFA item for self-defense.
Lpvo has an etched reticle so you don't have to remember to turn on your red dot. Yes shake awake red dots are cool, but can run out of battery with no etched reticle for back up leaving you screwed
I think most quality red dots have battery life measured in years while on, so it’s not something I worry about that much.
@@ASPextra good point
I think this is a great first step. I think you should reach out to Karl and Ian at InRange and ask them to think about this and do a collaboration. They make their bones running two gun matches with all types of different equipment and this is a test they’d excel at. Plus with their recent WWSD 2020 project this is even more applicable. My $.02 er for free?
I believe the results as portrayed are correct. Soooo, just to add another angle - how about a Green or Red Laser instead of a red dot - don't even have to see the sights, put the dot where you want the hole... Also, I have a Leatherwood CMR 1-4 with the "Tombstone" that covers an IPSC target nicely - just pull it over the torso and shoot - I cannot see how a Red Dot could possibly be any faster! You have to pick a place for the dot to stop, whereas bracketing the whole torso seems easier.
Laser has a place too but good ones are expensive