No, although scout can definitely destroy a soldier, the soldier has a slightly bigger advantage. Really all it takes is a direct rocket and splash and your done. I wouldn't say it's a big advantage, it's really skill dependent on both player's side, but generally the matchup is much more forgiving and easier as the soldier.
Against a Soldier using just the RL, the fight is even but it mostly depends on the battlefield (if you’re in a chokepoint VS if you have highground). Scout has the ability to dodge a Soldier’s rockets, but splash damage is the Achilles heel to the Scout’s ability to dodge. Not to mention Soldier’s default secondary is a _shotgun,_ which is hitscan and very powerful.
As a Heavy main, The class I find myself shutting down frequently is Scout. It takes a lot of skill for a Scout to move around a Heavy's gun and land shots at the same time. All it takes is for the Heavy to graze you 2 or 3 times and that can be enough to kill the Scout at that range. Occasionally I do run into Scouts that are skilled enough to pull this off consistently and in that case I just switch to Natasha which will completely shut down any Scout player no matter how good. I'd say the match up is more in favour of Heavy personally, but if not that they are at least even
TF2 isn't a 1v1 simulator. Scout can always just not engage and come back when the fight is more favourable. It's just pub scouts are so blood thirsty that they charge into reved up heavys lol.
i was searching for any content to put on the background while I'll try to sleep, and i found this. I'll re-watch this vid tomorrow to really hear your opinion man, to respect your work on this vid, but yeah, cool background for sleeping type of content go on man! honestly thanking 👍🏻❤
1. Spy, Soldier and Scout all counter sniper if the matchup is even so I’m not particularly a fan of that comparison. I think the reason people don’t realize this is because most people play uneven game modes like attack/defend or payload where sniper is a lot stronger because it’s much easier to have his entire team protecting him and the attacking team has to walk towards him every time instead of being on top of him. On more even maps like KOTH or 5CP especially, if the map isn’t a hallway simulator sniper is a lot more vulnerable because it’s a lot harder for his team to babysit him constantly. 2. Sniper actually is one of the better anti-engineer classes. He’s not Demoman or soldier but he’s the only other class besides Demoman that can insta-kill a lvl 1 sentry without unlocks. 3. Sniper is actually either the best thing to counter another sniper with or literally the worst. Whichever sniper is better at the game will prevent the other from literally playing the game at all. Obviously assuming perfect equality would mean they would trade kills though.
I think Spy still has the advantage against snipers, even with the razorback equipped. Its annoying, but you can still get behind and shoot him with your gun at close range. He died with 3 shots, if he is really good and have good reflexes, i equipped the Ambassador or the enforcer, so they dont have time ro react. The thing with razorback snipers is thay they tunnel vision even more than usual, so they have less game sense and a false sense of security, so its easy to kill them. If you get caught up, the 1vs1 its not that bad, he can attack attack you with his melee and rifle, but the rifle it's risky since you move and shoot faster and you have a revolver to avoid getting at close range, if he is at low hp, you can use your knife to finish him. So, you need to do more things, but you still have the advantage and as a spy, its still easy to get really close to him.
I think under the scout matchups, pyro should go under even because of the dragon's fury changing the matchup drastically with the pyro being able to 2 shot you, and be a threat at a greater distance. Though the scout can still 2 shot the pyro faster, dodge the projectile, or just chip away at you with the pistol. For pyro matchup heavy should go to even and engineer should go to counter. This is yet again because of the dragon's fury. And for all classes pyro should be put in B tier because of yet again, the dragon's fury. It is important to not forget that unlocks exist.
That moment when the class that was designed to excel in 1v1s (scout) has worse matchups than a class (sniper) that is grouped under 'support' in the class selection screen. Goes to show how tf2 really messed up sniper's design. It will forever remain a plague in tf2, or may even be the reason tf2 will die in the future.
sniper in lore are a professional hitman who are profficient at their job, the blame is not at valve or the design. It's just the fact that someone spend 15k+ hours mastering sniper to the point it's just that good
no class was designed to be played for thousands of hours, and sniper is the most obvious example of this since his base mechanics have an unlimited skill cap
this dude is SO cool. I love seths videos, He inspires me everyday to be really cool and smoke weed with natives. Just had a DMT trip and went back to 30BC, I wish i would've just stayed home and played the new call of duty i'm being chased by tarantulas and talking trees
I would say for Heavy... Spy is not a hard counter. Spy is even. A Spy/Heavy encounter is extremely explosive and someone will just die instantly. While Heavy has a lot of weaknesses to Spy, Spy having to get really close as a 125 health class to the strongest up close dps in the game means that goes both ways. The constant stream of damage also makes it harder for a spy to cloak away. It really is just if the Heavy turns around before the spy backstabs. Reminds me of a spy main that played Heavy for a bit and kept count of how many spys he killed and was surprised how high it was. Heavy dies a lot to Spy, but Spy also dies a lot to Heavy. Demoman counters Heavy. His longer effective range, his ability to really abuse common Heavy counters like firing from cover and peaking, he's only at disadvantage if he's really close, but heavies mobility means demo has the advantage at setting up where the fight happens. Heavy soft counters scout. Heavy with Natasha hard counters scout. While scout has ways to fight a Heavy, they almost all revolve around fighting only when the Heavy is outnumbered, and otherwise Heavy existing somewhere acts as a barrier to that part of the map for scout until another class comes to deal with it, much like sentries. Heavy/Pyro is also kind of even. Sure pyro with the flamethrower can't fight a Heavy, but flare spam is really effective against Heavy too. While it takes awhile to kill him, it's a constant damage source that Heavy is too slow and big to avoid.
Dragon's Fury Pyro is honestly such a different experience to normal Pyro that he actually warrants a different ranking to Pyro with a normal flame thrower (the Plog doesnt count). Dragons Fury turns Pyro from a jack of all trades into an actual offensive class he was meant to be labelled as. He gets extreme firepower in exchange for making his airblast generally weaker. Engi goes from a hard counter to just a counter or even depending on the map since the Dragon's Fury can pierce through targets, as such he can hit engi hiding behind his buildings and does base 75 damage per hit against said buildings (on top of rapid firerate if you can land your shots) because that's the actual base damage of the Dragon's Fury ignoring the whole "hitting afterburn enemies to get full damage" gimmick. In fact, his DPS is so high he can actually fight Heavy close range, granted Heavy still wins in terms of raw DPS, but Pyro is an actual threat to Heavy now and all it takes is 4 - 5 well placed rapid shots to kill them instead of the original flamethrowers weaker dps. Scout is also not safe since the Dragon's Fury has increased range and can two shot him so he's definitely an even matchup. Sniper is...well, Sniper, can't do much aside from being close. Demo and Soldier are actually an interesting case since the Dragon's Fury's DPS is going to shred them but at the same time Pyro cant use airblast as often (but it's still there keep in mind) so i think they don't move around much in terms of rankings (maybe a rank or two but that's about it). Spy on the other hand can actually be a tricky matchup since the afterburn doesnt last as long on the dragon's fury and you can't just sweep the place with flame particles, granted Scotch Shot and Detonater exist to cover that weakness but it's worth mentioning.
@@wtzhang586I'm assuming that the pyro user is actually competent. Do you really think I'm going to type all of that and just assume that the pyro using it has little experience? A competent pyro isn't just going to charge head first against a soldier or demo with the DF and the scout match up is still even for me since shotguns exist to substitute (panic attack being my go to most of the time) and comes down to who's the more skilled player. And I'm not going to ignore the insane DPS even if you're telling me it somehow has near 0 uses (alongside everything I just said above)
df has limited range, inconsistent damage and requires far more effort than soldier to deal less damage than him. it also has a gimped airblast, which is very bad because thats the only thing that makes pyro worth playing and this weapons offensive capabilities are not nearly good enough to warrant such a downside theres a reason no pyro main actually runs it, pyro needs to borrow soldiers rockets to do anything
I feel flares even the playfield with Pyro and Sniper. A good placed flare is enough to disturb a sniper and ruin the aim unless they have specific weapons
it evens it a little bit, but its much harder to hit sniper with flares than it is for him to hit you (unless you are using the scorch shot) (also, he can equip the danger shield).
@@sethtf2 I was thinking more about the detonator. And yeah, danger shield can be used, but at that point it means they aren't using Jarate, so is better in my opinion. I'd say they are more even than adv for Sniper
Medic is an interesting case, in that without his team and ubercharge, he's very vulnerable to most stuff in the game, including engineers. But with his team and ubercharge, the tables turn, and he has the advantage over all the classes. A team with an okay medic versus a team without a medic, is a one-sided romp.
When it comes to heavy, I’d drop spy to normal counter. A solid heavy will always be checking his back and a spy needs to get into heavy’s kill zone in order to secure the backstab. A solid spy will always get the heavy a couple of times every now and then but solid heavies know how to deal with spies. Unlike sniper though.
depending on how many engineers there are or how good the engineer is id say it can be a counter to spy which is ironic since spy is supposed to be a counter to engineer its just way easier to go another class and destroy the nest then switch back
12:38 It doesnt even have to be a flank, Scout with the candy cane is a hard counter against most pyro's. I've found that the 99% of pyros don't expect a scout to run through their flamethrower directly up to them, damage ramp up is the key here. The candy cane takes care of the afterburn.
Spy can pass through sniper sightliness without being killed. And can tank one headshot with stock and especially the death ringer. Also the revolver deals a pretty good amount of damage while being much easier than quick scopes. And backstabs still insta kill the sniper. Since he either checks behind him and missing a snipe opportunity on a medic. Or he gets stabbed
@@adna6958 True, there is however 3 issues with said fact 1) a good sniper is very spy aware and spends more time spinning around like a maniac than actually scoped in to prevent exactly that. 2) at some point the spy will have to decloak which is in certain cases the extremely audible, especially if spy is cloaked waiting for said sniper to stop spinning like a maniac and scope in to kill an overhealed heavy or whatever (the only logical time a sniper would charge) 3) Getting to the sniper because of his position at the back lines can be challenging and if any of his teammates see you at all, you are as good as dead Any of the above scenarios lead to the following mathematics that are not in the spy’s favour In extremely close range, snipers Kukuri (especially that off the bushwacka and stock) are just better in every regard 65-195dmg vs 45dmg… and that’s it At revolver range a good sniper is still advantaged thanks to a 150 damage quick scope headshot vs a random chance to get 112, which isn’t enough to kill. Spy does have the advantage if uncloaked from around 10-20 meters way but that significantly increases the chance of the sniper getting away, the spy getting destroyed by a teammate, or the sniper getting a headshot thanks to the comfortable range. TL;DR spy does not counter sniper outside of a very few select cases, which isn’t a counter… spy counters pyro in select cases too
@@adna6958 idk if my last message reply went though because youtube has a habit of not showing them but basically While this is true 1) Good snipers are very aware of their surroundings and don't hard scope which makes spys chances few and far in-between 2) Sniper is Mathematically still preferred at all ranges with both his melee and primary being more powerful 3) Snipers position means teammate intervention is more than likely, while spy has a better chance against sniper than most, the matchup in a normal pub still swings slightly in snipers favour
27:52 Nice video. I'd figure I'll comment for algo boost. 1k hour med main here. Agree with most of them except: 1. Spy should be even. Good medics have good awareness, so Medic vs spy is an awareness check. As long as the medic is smart with his positioning and is "locked on", its very hard to catch them off guard. Also theyre the 2nd fastest class in the game, moves unpredictably, and surrounded by his teammates hitboxes, and level 3 sentry. Definitely not a hard counter. 2. Pyro and soldier, IF theres no level 3 sentry/ competent friendly pyro, IS hard counter to medic. All they have to do is jetpack and wm1 its not even funny. Being able to jump/vertical movement is very strong in this game as we all know nobody looks UP. 3. Heavy is also like spy. Even. Awareness check. Hes slow. So a smart medic wouldnt get caught off guard by a heavy, and being the 2nd fastest class in the game can just outrun him and use the maps as cover to block sightline to him.
@@sethtf2 True, but some classes can pick him easier like scout, soldier and jetpack pyro. If no sentry or competent pyro that knows how to airblast, theres no stopping those 3. Other classes like heavy, demo, spy, however will have a harder time specifically "picking" a medic compared to those aforementioned 3
My man Engineer did not belong in C tier man, B at the very least. The wrangler and the short circuit are absolutely stupid for defending your sentry, and the jag is extremely good at getting your nest up and keeping it alive. Engie also has quite a few shotguns that all drastically skew the odds in his favor against certain classes, of course ignoring the Pompson. Mini-tangent over, good vid.
im a tryhard medic main and i strongly disagree about spy being a hard counter to medics. medics who know what they are doing are usually the ones who will be watching the heavy's back for him, ready to quickdswitch the the ubersaw at a moments notice to crit the lurking spies. pyro is also a lot of fun to backpedal and kill with the overdose. those stupid idiots will always run straight into the trail of needles without a thought. soldier and scout and demo and sniper are the 4 real hard counters. heavy and pyro are counters, engie is advantage or strong advantage. spy is even. spy will really only get you if you look forward (obviously) but medic has little need to look forward. i usually look to one side with my back to the wall so i can watch for spies and sort of see what is ahead so i know if i gotta run, but i dont need to aim for anything lol the beam is always connected however if your list is talking about fresh installs, i do agree that your list is correct. new medics never know wtf they are doing and they are just fucked.
Just asking if you might consider doing a second part including some other “characters” Examples being: Civilian from Team Fortress 2 Classic Mercenary from Open Fortress Madcap The cast of Vs Saxton Hale/Freak Fortress 2 (And some other ones that I may be missing.)
i was thinking of uploading weapon tier list videos but thats about it. i dont have enough experience with the other characters you are describing but that seems like something i can check out.
wouldnt say scout hard counters demo, if flanked then yes youre dead as demo, but mid range, you can easily deny him from getting close with stickies, or if youre a pipe god just 2 shot him. scout might have an advantage and its definitely very challenging as demo, but not strong advantage/hard counter. honestly i think it might be the most fun matchup you have as demo since its so rewarding to kill scouts.
I am very confused about the Soldier tier list. I believe that Sniper is countered by if not even matchup against a Soldier considering he has the same movement capabilities as Scout but just requiring health, also the fact he deals much more consinstent damage and that he has enough health to survive a quickscope headshot I believe evens the field. Also Heavy in general struggles against compitent projectile classes because while he needs direct line of sight to deal damage, they do not. So I believe Heavy should be placed in the Advantage tier, the only reason he isn't placed in the "Strong Advantage" Tier is because he has the ability to punish a Soldier hard if he doesn't use the corner peaking strategy. Also I am suprised you didn't put Sniper on "Hard counter" in the Sniper Tier list because I believe that Sniper is the single best counter to... a Sniper, it is an even match all things considered but in total it's a game where both Snipers walk on eggshells the entire time. Other than those gripes I agree on your tier list.
tf2 matchups are heavily context dependent and the context can include overall skill level and favored maps. this is most noticeable with scout imo, as scout is downright unplayable on many areas of the most popular maps, and most scout 1v1 matchups become more favored for scout as overall skill level increases.
The thing about the soldier/sniper matchup is that i find it to be much more in the snipers favor because the soldier has to put himself at an immense amount of risk to get close the sniper. Not only do you need to take away your health to close the distance, but you also need to work around the snipers team. Also, the reasoning for why i didnt put the sniper in the hard counter tier was because the matchup is even, so i put sniper in his own tier like the rest of the classes. If the only reliable counter to a class is itself, then that is a flaw in game design.
most people are really bad at scout. you're fighting against bad players and/or playing in areas that favor pyro. at higher skill levels there's really not a lot a pyro can do to a scout in a 1v1 other than hide in a tight space or near teammates and chip away with midrange detonator shots. at low skill levels scouts will just walk into flamethrower range and miss every shot
@@fumoaddict3526 pretty much this ^ I've played my fair share of HL Pyro and comp Scouts are leagues above your average pub scout. The only way to "consistently" outdm a Scout is to hit a lucky flare, but it's just so unreliable that it's just best not to engage them whatsoever.
I'm a decent Scout and Pyros are usually a decent matchup but one where I feel I have the advantage. They have a real hard time hitting me with the fire and I keep myself at mid range in a point where I'm able to dish out a good ammount of damage whilst they fail to set me on fire
Overall a pretty good list but, putting pyro in C/D tier is porbably youre biggest mistake. Maybe you havent met a good pyro but airblast makes him atleast a B or A because of how many tools he has. He 1 shots every light class if hes good and he can disguinush teamates and waste health packs due to afterburn and make medics job a lot harder. He also counters soldier and demo harder and harder the better you are as a player. I feel like good players also think this way because b4nny and other pros think pyro a step below sniper. I think youre sleeping on pyro thats all
Nah. He pretty much hit the nail on the head on Pyro. Sure you can _argue_ that he could bump all of the defense specialist classes one tier above, but it doesn't make that much of a difference anyway. Nevertheless, he's no A tier class. His damage is decent but inconsistent at best and terrible at worst. "One-shotting light classes" is misleading because you're ignoring the time it takes to flame them -> switch to the flare gun -> then fire. All of that takes roughly the same ammount of time it would take for a Demo to shoot 2 pills or a Scout to shoot 2 scattergun shots - not mention that you've dealt overall less damage (discounting afterburn) and has to wait another 2 seconds to shoot again. I've said it once and i'll say it again: Topscoring in casual and outplaying pubbers don't make the class good. Kinda like playing heavy.
yeah tbh i might be sleeping on pyro a bit, but if we took every class and saw them at high levels of play i feel like the pyro has more limiting factors that hold him back than some of the other classes. pyro is by no means a bad class but i feel like he is a little lacking compared to the others in terms of what he is able to do.
@@sethtf2 youve got it right, pyro's tools are just worse at high skill levels because they rely on opponents playing poorly. good players wont often die to crit flares, reflects or w+m1, whereas the tools of other combat classes are less dependent on your opponents making mistakes and are just better in the vast majority of situations
@@magnum78923 my point wasnt to make pyro seem greater than soldier, demo, scout and medic. But to put emphasis on him being the best class after sniper because of his utility and dmg that i think makes him A tier. Go watch b4nnys tier list :best tf2 player: he also thinks pyro is A tier. Pyro has good mobility aswell if you use detonator aswell as does the same dmg or more if you count afterburn. I do not know why you wouldnt mention afterburn when its one of pyros most dangerous aspect. Sure hes no demo or scout but sure has enough for an A tier after all that he has gotten. Go watch Anthid or Sketchek if you wanna see pyros fullest potential
@@ball2899 i never said that you were trying to make pyro seem greater than any of those classes at any point. Yes, i've seen b4nny's video. Yes, i've seen sketchek. Yes, i've checked out Anthid as well as Kristianma (surprised you didn't mentioned them). I've mained pyro for well over a year now and my point still stands: He's not an A tier class. His damage is _just too inconsistent_ compared to other classes. Instead of outright just dealing damage, pyro relies on damage-over-time or reflecting damage. Detonator is good for spamming afterburn on snipers and making people retreat. You make space for your team. That's it. It's useful, but it's not dangerous. Jumping deals too much self-damage. Furthermore, during clean up scout will do a better job than afterburn. Against skilled players, there will always be an enemy pyro (or medic) (or engi) who will put their teammates out before afterburn runs its full course. Against skilled players, your only hopes of fighting them on equal ground will be out of your flamethrower's range, so you rely on reflects and flares/shotgun. Again, *inconsistent*. That's not to say pyro is bad. It's just that he's got weaknesses that valvE clearly was afraid of tackling. Flamethrower could have more DPS and detonator could deal less self-damage if only they wanted to. I agree that he is the best class right after Sniper, but there is a very tenuous line separating them, you know?
![[TF2] Crutch Weapons](/img/n.gif)
Scout soft counters soldier. If you think soldier has the advantage in a 1v1, you literally have never played against a competent scout.
No, although scout can definitely destroy a soldier, the soldier has a slightly bigger advantage. Really all it takes is a direct rocket and splash and your done. I wouldn't say it's a big advantage, it's really skill dependent on both player's side, but generally the matchup is much more forgiving and easier as the soldier.
But to be fair, that's mainly on pubs where the skill is varies between fresh install and tryhard.
Scouts only real weakness is engie
Scout counters Soldier in open areas, but Scout will lose to Soldier in closed areas
Against a Soldier using just the RL, the fight is even but it mostly depends on the battlefield (if you’re in a chokepoint VS if you have highground). Scout has the ability to dodge a Soldier’s rockets, but splash damage is the Achilles heel to the Scout’s ability to dodge. Not to mention Soldier’s default secondary is a _shotgun,_ which is hitscan and very powerful.
"This game is never gonna get a balance change"
Gas Passer:
erm ackshually that was a bug fix
People are treating the bug fix is like a new meta, I saw 20 pyros in one day using neon annihilator with gas passer
@@sethtf2it was very intentionally coded to not work like that. then they changed their minds and called it a "bug fix"
As a Heavy main,
The class I find myself shutting down frequently is Scout. It takes a lot of skill for a Scout to move around a Heavy's gun and land shots at the same time. All it takes is for the Heavy to graze you 2 or 3 times and that can be enough to kill the Scout at that range.
Occasionally I do run into Scouts that are skilled enough to pull this off consistently and in that case I just switch to Natasha which will completely shut down any Scout player no matter how good. I'd say the match up is more in favour of Heavy personally, but if not that they are at least even
TF2 isn't a 1v1 simulator. Scout can always just not engage and come back when the fight is more favourable. It's just pub scouts are so blood thirsty that they charge into reved up heavys lol.
i was searching for any content to put on the background while I'll try to sleep, and i found this. I'll re-watch this vid tomorrow to really hear your opinion man, to respect your work on this vid, but yeah, cool background for sleeping type of content go on man! honestly thanking 👍🏻❤
glad i could help
1. Spy, Soldier and Scout all counter sniper if the matchup is even so I’m not particularly a fan of that comparison. I think the reason people don’t realize this is because most people play uneven game modes like attack/defend or payload where sniper is a lot stronger because it’s much easier to have his entire team protecting him and the attacking team has to walk towards him every time instead of being on top of him. On more even maps like KOTH or 5CP especially, if the map isn’t a hallway simulator sniper is a lot more vulnerable because it’s a lot harder for his team to babysit him constantly.
2. Sniper actually is one of the better anti-engineer classes. He’s not Demoman or soldier but he’s the only other class besides Demoman that can insta-kill a lvl 1 sentry without unlocks.
3. Sniper is actually either the best thing to counter another sniper with or literally the worst. Whichever sniper is better at the game will prevent the other from literally playing the game at all. Obviously assuming perfect equality would mean they would trade kills though.
I think Spy still has the advantage against snipers, even with the razorback equipped.
Its annoying, but you can still get behind and shoot him with your gun at close range. He died with 3 shots, if he is really good and have good reflexes, i equipped the Ambassador or the enforcer, so they dont have time ro react.
The thing with razorback snipers is thay they tunnel vision even more than usual, so they have less game sense and a false sense of security, so its easy to kill them.
If you get caught up, the 1vs1 its not that bad, he can attack attack you with his melee and rifle, but the rifle it's risky since you move and shoot faster and you have a revolver to avoid getting at close range, if he is at low hp, you can use your knife to finish him. So, you need to do more things, but you still have the advantage and as a spy, its still easy to get really close to him.
You uncloak. He hears that. You eat 150. Fight over.
@@Xghtifuncloak when there is noise
@@Xghtifuncloak behind a wall
i backstab every single razorback sniper because 8/10 times they dont even notice the razorback broke
@@Xghtif do you have 30 hours on spy
I think under the scout matchups, pyro should go under even because of the dragon's fury changing the matchup drastically with the pyro being able to 2 shot you, and be a threat at a greater distance. Though the scout can still 2 shot the pyro faster, dodge the projectile, or just chip away at you with the pistol. For pyro matchup heavy should go to even and engineer should go to counter. This is yet again because of the dragon's fury. And for all classes pyro should be put in B tier because of yet again, the dragon's fury. It is important to not forget that unlocks exist.
That moment when the class that was designed to excel in 1v1s (scout) has worse matchups than a class (sniper) that is grouped under 'support' in the class selection screen. Goes to show how tf2 really messed up sniper's design. It will forever remain a plague in tf2, or may even be the reason tf2 will die in the future.
If he just flanks the sniper scout easily kills him
is bro talking from the perspective of cp_orange?
sniper in lore are a professional hitman who are profficient at their job, the blame is not at valve or the design. It's just the fact that someone spend 15k+ hours mastering sniper to the point it's just that good
no class was designed to be played for thousands of hours, and sniper is the most obvious example of this since his base mechanics have an unlimited skill cap
@@thehandyfamily806scout is a hard counter to sniper
this dude is SO cool. I love seths videos, He inspires me everyday to be really cool and smoke weed with natives. Just had a DMT trip and went back to 30BC, I wish i would've just stayed home and played the new call of duty i'm being chased by tarantulas and talking trees
I would say for Heavy...
Spy is not a hard counter. Spy is even. A Spy/Heavy encounter is extremely explosive and someone will just die instantly. While Heavy has a lot of weaknesses to Spy, Spy having to get really close as a 125 health class to the strongest up close dps in the game means that goes both ways. The constant stream of damage also makes it harder for a spy to cloak away. It really is just if the Heavy turns around before the spy backstabs. Reminds me of a spy main that played Heavy for a bit and kept count of how many spys he killed and was surprised how high it was. Heavy dies a lot to Spy, but Spy also dies a lot to Heavy.
Demoman counters Heavy. His longer effective range, his ability to really abuse common Heavy counters like firing from cover and peaking, he's only at disadvantage if he's really close, but heavies mobility means demo has the advantage at setting up where the fight happens.
Heavy soft counters scout. Heavy with Natasha hard counters scout. While scout has ways to fight a Heavy, they almost all revolve around fighting only when the Heavy is outnumbered, and otherwise Heavy existing somewhere acts as a barrier to that part of the map for scout until another class comes to deal with it, much like sentries.
Heavy/Pyro is also kind of even. Sure pyro with the flamethrower can't fight a Heavy, but flare spam is really effective against Heavy too. While it takes awhile to kill him, it's a constant damage source that Heavy is too slow and big to avoid.
Dragon's Fury Pyro is honestly such a different experience to normal Pyro that he actually warrants a different ranking to Pyro with a normal flame thrower (the Plog doesnt count). Dragons Fury turns Pyro from a jack of all trades into an actual offensive class he was meant to be labelled as. He gets extreme firepower in exchange for making his airblast generally weaker. Engi goes from a hard counter to just a counter or even depending on the map since the Dragon's Fury can pierce through targets, as such he can hit engi hiding behind his buildings and does base 75 damage per hit against said buildings (on top of rapid firerate if you can land your shots) because that's the actual base damage of the Dragon's Fury ignoring the whole "hitting afterburn enemies to get full damage" gimmick. In fact, his DPS is so high he can actually fight Heavy close range, granted Heavy still wins in terms of raw DPS, but Pyro is an actual threat to Heavy now and all it takes is 4 - 5 well placed rapid shots to kill them instead of the original flamethrowers weaker dps. Scout is also not safe since the Dragon's Fury has increased range and can two shot him so he's definitely an even matchup. Sniper is...well, Sniper, can't do much aside from being close. Demo and Soldier are actually an interesting case since the Dragon's Fury's DPS is going to shred them but at the same time Pyro cant use airblast as often (but it's still there keep in mind) so i think they don't move around much in terms of rankings (maybe a rank or two but that's about it). Spy on the other hand can actually be a tricky matchup since the afterburn doesnt last as long on the dragon's fury and you can't just sweep the place with flame particles, granted Scotch Shot and Detonater exist to cover that weakness but it's worth mentioning.
@@wtzhang586I'm assuming that the pyro user is actually competent. Do you really think I'm going to type all of that and just assume that the pyro using it has little experience? A competent pyro isn't just going to charge head first against a soldier or demo with the DF and the scout match up is still even for me since shotguns exist to substitute (panic attack being my go to most of the time) and comes down to who's the more skilled player. And I'm not going to ignore the insane DPS even if you're telling me it somehow has near 0 uses (alongside everything I just said above)
df has limited range, inconsistent damage and requires far more effort than soldier to deal less damage than him. it also has a gimped airblast, which is very bad because thats the only thing that makes pyro worth playing and this weapons offensive capabilities are not nearly good enough to warrant such a downside
theres a reason no pyro main actually runs it, pyro needs to borrow soldiers rockets to do anything
Great video, With a better mic and better editing I see a fantastic youtuber.
Seth is the chill chullo hat, but as a person
i liked my own comment, twice
my favorite hat
I feel flares even the playfield with Pyro and Sniper. A good placed flare is enough to disturb a sniper and ruin the aim unless they have specific weapons
it evens it a little bit, but its much harder to hit sniper with flares than it is for him to hit you (unless you are using the scorch shot) (also, he can equip the danger shield).
@@sethtf2 I was thinking more about the detonator. And yeah, danger shield can be used, but at that point it means they aren't using Jarate, so is better in my opinion. I'd say they are more even than adv for Sniper
Medic is an interesting case, in that without his team and ubercharge, he's very vulnerable to most stuff in the game, including engineers.
But with his team and ubercharge, the tables turn, and he has the advantage over all the classes.
A team with an okay medic versus a team without a medic, is a one-sided romp.
When it comes to heavy, I’d drop spy to normal counter. A solid heavy will always be checking his back and a spy needs to get into heavy’s kill zone in order to secure the backstab. A solid spy will always get the heavy a couple of times every now and then but solid heavies know how to deal with spies.
Unlike sniper though.
depending on how many engineers there are or how good the engineer is id say it can be a counter to spy which is ironic since spy is supposed to be a counter to engineer
its just way easier to go another class and destroy the nest then switch back
12:38 It doesnt even have to be a flank, Scout with the candy cane is a hard counter against most pyro's. I've found that the 99% of pyros don't expect a scout to run through their flamethrower directly up to them, damage ramp up is the key here. The candy cane takes care of the afterburn.
yea the candy cane is great until a demo grazes you with a pill and obliterates you
its not worth being 1 tapped by pipes and rockets
this looks like a tier list that was made by a new player
Classes sniper counters: all of them
Classes that counter sniper: Map choice.
Spy can pass through sniper sightliness without being killed. And can tank one headshot with stock and especially the death ringer.
Also the revolver deals a pretty good amount of damage while being much easier than quick scopes. And backstabs still insta kill the sniper. Since he either checks behind him and missing a snipe opportunity on a medic. Or he gets stabbed
@@adna6958 True, there is however 3 issues with said fact
1) a good sniper is very spy aware and spends more time spinning around like a maniac than actually scoped in to prevent exactly that.
2) at some point the spy will have to decloak which is in certain cases the extremely audible, especially if spy is cloaked waiting for said sniper to stop spinning like a maniac and scope in to kill an overhealed heavy or whatever (the only logical time a sniper would charge)
3) Getting to the sniper because of his position at the back lines can be challenging and if any of his teammates see you at all, you are as good as dead
Any of the above scenarios lead to the following mathematics that are not in the spy’s favour
In extremely close range, snipers Kukuri (especially that off the bushwacka and stock) are just better in every regard 65-195dmg vs 45dmg… and that’s it
At revolver range a good sniper is still advantaged thanks to a 150 damage quick scope headshot vs a random chance to get 112, which isn’t enough to kill.
Spy does have the advantage if uncloaked from around 10-20 meters way but that significantly increases the chance of the sniper getting away, the spy getting destroyed by a teammate, or the sniper getting a headshot thanks to the comfortable range.
TL;DR spy does not counter sniper outside of a very few select cases, which isn’t a counter… spy counters pyro in select cases too
@@adna6958 idk if my last message reply went though because youtube has a habit of not showing them but basically
While this is true
1) Good snipers are very aware of their surroundings and don't hard scope which makes spys chances few and far in-between
2) Sniper is Mathematically still preferred at all ranges with both his melee and primary being more powerful
3) Snipers position means teammate intervention is more than likely, while spy has a better chance against sniper than most, the matchup in a normal pub still swings slightly in snipers favour
@@six7388 is still risky to go as a sniper with your melee against an enemy that can 1 shot you without a secondary or quick scope.
27:52 Nice video. I'd figure I'll comment for algo boost.
1k hour med main here.
Agree with most of them except:
1. Spy should be even.
Good medics have good awareness, so Medic vs spy is an awareness check. As long as the medic is smart with his positioning and is "locked on", its very hard to catch them off guard. Also theyre the 2nd fastest class in the game, moves unpredictably, and surrounded by his teammates hitboxes, and level 3 sentry.
Definitely not a hard counter.
2. Pyro and soldier, IF theres no level 3 sentry/ competent friendly pyro, IS hard counter to medic. All they have to do is jetpack and wm1 its not even funny. Being able to jump/vertical movement is very strong in this game as we all know nobody looks UP.
3. Heavy is also like spy. Even. Awareness check. Hes slow. So a smart medic wouldnt get caught off guard by a heavy, and being the 2nd fastest class in the game can just outrun him and use the maps as cover to block sightline to him.
Medic's matchups really do just boil down to situational awareness imo
@@sethtf2 True, but some classes can pick him easier like scout, soldier and jetpack pyro. If no sentry or competent pyro that knows how to airblast, theres no stopping those 3.
Other classes like heavy, demo, spy, however will have a harder time specifically "picking" a medic compared to those aforementioned 3
@@John-jc5hw A competent scout will easily shut down any bombing soldier or jetpacking pyro, and should be able to kill the scout rushing you down.
no complaints, good video good tier list
My man Engineer did not belong in C tier man, B at the very least. The wrangler and the short circuit are absolutely stupid for defending your sentry, and the jag is extremely good at getting your nest up and keeping it alive. Engie also has quite a few shotguns that all drastically skew the odds in his favor against certain classes, of course ignoring the Pompson. Mini-tangent over, good vid.
Scout solider is even,a competent scout can dodge and weave very well up in his face,direct hit soldier is a counter tho
I agree with a lot of stuff but disagree some stuff. Overall pretty good list from what I've watched so yeah
24:30 as I heavy main I must agree. Heavy eats nests!
And later on I disagree XD
The only time I ever play Sniper is to deal with other snipers, or if we have everything but a sniper on the team
im a tryhard medic main and i strongly disagree about spy being a hard counter to medics. medics who know what they are doing are usually the ones who will be watching the heavy's back for him, ready to quickdswitch the the ubersaw at a moments notice to crit the lurking spies. pyro is also a lot of fun to backpedal and kill with the overdose. those stupid idiots will always run straight into the trail of needles without a thought. soldier and scout and demo and sniper are the 4 real hard counters. heavy and pyro are counters, engie is advantage or strong advantage. spy is even. spy will really only get you if you look forward (obviously) but medic has little need to look forward. i usually look to one side with my back to the wall so i can watch for spies and sort of see what is ahead so i know if i gotta run, but i dont need to aim for anything lol the beam is always connected
however if your list is talking about fresh installs, i do agree that your list is correct. new medics never know wtf they are doing and they are just fucked.
The world if the wrangler didnt have a shield
Just asking if you might consider doing a second part including some other “characters”
Examples being:
Civilian from Team Fortress 2 Classic
Mercenary from Open Fortress
Madcap
The cast of Vs Saxton Hale/Freak Fortress 2
(And some other ones that I may be missing.)
i was thinking of uploading weapon tier list videos but thats about it. i dont have enough experience with the other characters you are describing but that seems like something i can check out.
wouldnt say scout hard counters demo, if flanked then yes youre dead as demo, but mid range, you can easily deny him from getting close with stickies, or if youre a pipe god just 2 shot him. scout might have an advantage and its definitely very challenging as demo, but not strong advantage/hard counter. honestly i think it might be the most fun matchup you have as demo since its so rewarding to kill scouts.
Good video. Hope you get more subs. Subbed
We need a x 1000 counter video
I mean I can tell you’ve never played or watched any high level 6s or hl but I’d agree with most of this if it covered only pubbers
true, i have very limited experience watching comp tf2 and have never tried out in a competitive match but yeah, this Tier list is for pubs.
29:23 heavy is screaming at medic
cool vid but ur so quiet
This is an ad jumpscare simulator
sorry about that, future videos will have better volume
love this vid
As a Medic main I disagree
good video
fun video keep it up
I am very confused about the Soldier tier list. I believe that Sniper is countered by if not even matchup against a Soldier considering he has the same movement capabilities as Scout but just requiring health, also the fact he deals much more consinstent damage and that he has enough health to survive a quickscope headshot I believe evens the field. Also Heavy in general struggles against compitent projectile classes because while he needs direct line of sight to deal damage, they do not. So I believe Heavy should be placed in the Advantage tier, the only reason he isn't placed in the "Strong Advantage" Tier is because he has the ability to punish a Soldier hard if he doesn't use the corner peaking strategy. Also I am suprised you didn't put Sniper on "Hard counter" in the Sniper Tier list because I believe that Sniper is the single best counter to... a Sniper, it is an even match all things considered but in total it's a game where both Snipers walk on eggshells the entire time. Other than those gripes I agree on your tier list.
tf2 matchups are heavily context dependent and the context can include overall skill level and favored maps. this is most noticeable with scout imo, as scout is downright unplayable on many areas of the most popular maps, and most scout 1v1 matchups become more favored for scout as overall skill level increases.
The thing about the soldier/sniper matchup is that i find it to be much more in the snipers favor because the soldier has to put himself at an immense amount of risk to get close the sniper. Not only do you need to take away your health to close the distance, but you also need to work around the snipers team.
Also, the reasoning for why i didnt put the sniper in the hard counter tier was because the matchup is even, so i put sniper in his own tier like the rest of the classes. If the only reliable counter to a class is itself, then that is a flaw in game design.
As a pyro main I am confused why everyone says Scout counters me. Whenever I meet Scouts, it's usually me who walks away.
most people are really bad at scout. you're fighting against bad players and/or playing in areas that favor pyro. at higher skill levels there's really not a lot a pyro can do to a scout in a 1v1 other than hide in a tight space or near teammates and chip away with midrange detonator shots. at low skill levels scouts will just walk into flamethrower range and miss every shot
@@fumoaddict3526 pretty much this ^
I've played my fair share of HL Pyro and comp Scouts are leagues above your average pub scout.
The only way to "consistently" outdm a Scout is to hit a lucky flare, but it's just so unreliable that it's just best not to engage them whatsoever.
Cause you meet shit Scouts
I'm a decent Scout and Pyros are usually a decent matchup but one where I feel I have the advantage.
They have a real hard time hitting me with the fire and I keep myself at mid range in a point where I'm able to dish out a good ammount of damage whilst they fail to set me on fire
The matchup can go either way depending on the scouts skill level.
Overall a pretty good list but, putting pyro in C/D tier is porbably youre biggest mistake. Maybe you havent met a good pyro but airblast makes him atleast a B or A because of how many tools he has. He 1 shots every light class if hes good and he can disguinush teamates and waste health packs due to afterburn and make medics job a lot harder. He also counters soldier and demo harder and harder the better you are as a player. I feel like good players also think this way because b4nny and other pros think pyro a step below sniper. I think youre sleeping on pyro thats all
Nah. He pretty much hit the nail on the head on Pyro.
Sure you can _argue_ that he could bump all of the defense specialist classes one tier above, but it doesn't make that much of a difference anyway. Nevertheless, he's no A tier class. His damage is decent but inconsistent at best and terrible at worst. "One-shotting light classes" is misleading because you're ignoring the time it takes to flame them -> switch to the flare gun -> then fire. All of that takes roughly the same ammount of time it would take for a Demo to shoot 2 pills or a Scout to shoot 2 scattergun shots - not mention that you've dealt overall less damage (discounting afterburn) and has to wait another 2 seconds to shoot again.
I've said it once and i'll say it again: Topscoring in casual and outplaying pubbers don't make the class good. Kinda like playing heavy.
yeah tbh i might be sleeping on pyro a bit, but if we took every class and saw them at high levels of play i feel like the pyro has more limiting factors that hold him back than some of the other classes. pyro is by no means a bad class but i feel like he is a little lacking compared to the others in terms of what he is able to do.
@@sethtf2 youve got it right, pyro's tools are just worse at high skill levels because they rely on opponents playing poorly. good players wont often die to crit flares, reflects or w+m1, whereas the tools of other combat classes are less dependent on your opponents making mistakes and are just better in the vast majority of situations
@@magnum78923 my point wasnt to make pyro seem greater than soldier, demo, scout and medic. But to put emphasis on him being the best class after sniper because of his utility and dmg that i think makes him A tier. Go watch b4nnys tier list :best tf2 player: he also thinks pyro is A tier. Pyro has good mobility aswell if you use detonator aswell as does the same dmg or more if you count afterburn. I do not know why you wouldnt mention afterburn when its one of pyros most dangerous aspect. Sure hes no demo or scout but sure has enough for an A tier after all that he has gotten. Go watch Anthid or Sketchek if you wanna see pyros fullest potential
@@ball2899 i never said that you were trying to make pyro seem greater than any of those classes at any point. Yes, i've seen b4nny's video. Yes, i've seen sketchek. Yes, i've checked out Anthid as well as Kristianma (surprised you didn't mentioned them). I've mained pyro for well over a year now and my point still stands: He's not an A tier class. His damage is _just too inconsistent_ compared to other classes. Instead of outright just dealing damage, pyro relies on damage-over-time or reflecting damage. Detonator is good for spamming afterburn on snipers and making people retreat. You make space for your team. That's it. It's useful, but it's not dangerous. Jumping deals too much self-damage. Furthermore, during clean up scout will do a better job than afterburn. Against skilled players, there will always be an enemy pyro (or medic) (or engi) who will put their teammates out before afterburn runs its full course. Against skilled players, your only hopes of fighting them on equal ground will be out of your flamethrower's range, so you rely on reflects and flares/shotgun. Again, *inconsistent*.
That's not to say pyro is bad. It's just that he's got weaknesses that valvE clearly was afraid of tackling. Flamethrower could have more DPS and detonator could deal less self-damage if only they wanted to. I agree that he is the best class right after Sniper, but there is a very tenuous line separating them, you know?
Scout soft counters everyone except Engineer and Demoman
@@overlord3481in a 1v1
@@overlord3481which is why is put Demo as exception. He is hard countered, not soft countered
Tryhard sniper: