Something you're off about is that crits were originally introduced in Table Top games to help simulate the chaos of actual combat, and they remained in RPG games for largely the same reason.
I mean, random crits in something like D&D is fine because generally it's a PvE game. You're not facing another player, in most cases, and the DM is using varying levels of strategy and tactics depending on the situation. The enemies ALSO have just as much of a chance to crit as you do. In pathfinder, another TTRPG, crits are changed entirely. Some weapons have a larger crit range, which means you crit more often, but you still need to roll a "crit confirm" to actually crit, because people tend not to find those super random moments in most games very fun. It's hype af to get a nat 20 when fighting a monster, but its frustrating af when a creature nat 20s you and nearly 1 shots you because you weren't accounting for it. Its why I like pathfinder's system, rolling a nat 20 doesn't guarantee a crit and feels more as if "well, instead of randomly swinging and happening to hit something vital" it makes it feel more like "I noticed an opening in an enemy's defense and now I need to make sure I can strike it" (with the crit confirm mechanic). tl;dr random crits really aren't that fun in any game. They're a form of power creep which is fine in PvE games but in PvP games where the idea is everyone is on a level playing field and SKILL makes the difference, they're bad and reward players who aren't that skilled. That's ignoring the fact that in TF2, it's also essentially a snowball mechanic, rewarding the good players FOR being good.
10:31 As someone who not only used their Torterra to sweep the entire game as a kid, but ALSO named them TWIGGY aswell, this hit like a sledgehammer crit to the gut, but in a positive way.
@@fujiwaranonekobiodrando1257but you can predict it cuz their weapon are glowing. It would still be more annoyin to die to random crit , than attack that you could predict and avoid.
I think a lot of people forget that criticals in tabletops can often times be less luck. Pathfinder 1e was designed with crit builds in mind, and it's completely valid.
And in D&D 5e there are a few ways to guarantee crits like using melee attacks against Paralyzed and Unconscious creatures while within 5' of them, but also ways to get higher Crit rates outside of that. For example, a multiclassed Barbarian (any subclass)/Fighter (Champion) can give themselves advantage on their strength-based attacks at-will in exchange for granting their enemies advantage on attacks against them through Reckless Attack, and have Improved Critical to double their base crit chance (gaining crits on 19s and 20s instead of just 20s). And that's before we delve into the world of Hexblades and Knife-Ears with Elven Accuraccy and ways to give themselves advantage
Crits in TF2 manage to do a marvelous thing where they're both semi-random AND a snowball mechanic for people dealing high damage. Two bad mechanics in one, how amazing!
In competitive pokemon, low accuracy moves tend to decide matches more often than crits. Aaron Cybertron Zheng missed 3 will o wisps in a row and gamefreak buffed the accuracy from 75 to 85 in the next generation. I get that these moves are balanced with their accuracy but it feels bad when you end up in the receiving end of Fissure hitting 3 times in a row or Draco metor missing 3 times in a row which both has happened to me.
ive once missed a 99% accurancy population bomb(using wide lens) on the first hit going from what would have about a 93% chance to hit a 300 power move(using technician) to doing 0 damage and this is why I hate inaccurate moves with a passion.
Pokémon crits don't just ignore defense buffs, they also ignore your own attack drops. That alone makes a crit from the opponent far scarier than a crit you get yourself, something may seem helpless but if they get a crit and aren't a burned physical attacker you're suddenly put on the back foot
I don't understand Pokemon enough to do it, but one of my favorite things is when someone has a tiny little Pokemon that their opponent underestimates and then they just break check the opponent with a ton of debuffs
@@nigeladams8321 It really depends on what the little guy has, because even if they can be strong, they also have to be able to stand up to their opponents who don't have to set up to threaten a ko on you
Also pokemon crit are actually more likely to effect stall strats because you spend more turns setting up meaning more attacks received means more chances to crit.
To be fair, TF2's designs generally indicating function only applies to the character designs. Things like unlocks are fairly hit or miss in terms of what they look like relating to what they do.
My "favorite" examples of this discrepancy are 1: The backscatter, with what appears to be TWO non-detachable drum mags, having a mag size penalty 2: The iron bomber, which has a roll reduction gimmick applied to its SPHERICAL projectiles
@@roboticjanitor3332 to add to the grenade launchers bit, you could think that the pills would have bigger hitboxes than the balls, but they're all the same i think ?
This has been in the game since launch. Unlocks haven't. It doesn't really apply, here, along with most of what tf2 has been lambashed for. You could almost say that Random Crits were the original sin.
easy, always. They are gifted upon thee who are new, struggling with keeping up, holding their melee steadily in their new-born arms and- of course the soldier with the three unusuals got two in a row
There’s a single game I know besides the one you mentioned that actually lets you choose how random the game is and that’s Panzer Corps 2. Literally just gives you a slider from 0-100 that lets you choose if you want to have your tank unit die in one hit or not. It’s great!
They have been part of the games identity since the beginning to stand out from the other thousand FPSers, plus, they’re hilarious with TF2s random nature!
I have a good idea for a video: why don’t you go through some of the weapons on your rehabilitated server, your original thought process, and how that thought process changed when you began seeing them in game.
Shounic had an interesting event/video on TF2 random crits, where he made your weapon have crit glow before you shoot a random crit. It definitely changes how unfair random crits feel, you know when you're going to crit and so does the enemy. The only "downside" is people farm for crits to have a guaranteed crit before leaving spawn or entering a fight, however in Shounic's video they explained that it didn't seem to be overpowered since both sides can do it and ofc the crits are visible. It's not a perfect change but if it were implemented in TF2 id see it as a welcome change, apart from F2Ps/new players learning that farming for random crits is a mechanic which is not a good thing to learn early on.
@@yeetmcmeat it takes more than one shounic experiment for something like crit farming to become a meta. imagine the game after a year or two of it being implemented
@@tonyasajit2417 I'm not saying the video is Proof its a good change, I'm only saying that it could be. I don't think its the best choice but its better than removing random crits outright.
@@yeetmcmeat i just dont understand the hate. why does anything have to be done to random crits in the first place? tf2 players know its a wacky and crazy game but want to remove all the things that make playing it so chaotic (like random crits & bullet spread). i just dont understand
ok, as someone who is into comp Pokémon way too much, turning crits to be more likely the more stat boosts the opponent has sounds good on paper, but in practice will force the meta to shift to very defensive Pokémon naturally, so they get the incredible bulk without the chance to be shut down, or will become a nonfactor because the pokemon are to frail to survive a hit anyway, two key examples i can think of is occa berry ferrothorn and every single gengar past gen 1, in ferrothorn singles, it became a uber staple because it was so damn hard to kill, and still had respectable damage output through power whip or something like that ( i dont like thoes sorts of moves) and would just kinda sit on the field without consequence. and with gengar, its balanced by being really frail, but super fast and strong, so its going to kill you, or your going to kill it, even without a crit like, 70% of the time, probably the most prominent benifactor and easily one of the most invasive pokemon in the recent metagames ( at least in gen 8) incineroar, that stupid fucking macho cat lowers your attack, raises crit chance, deals way too much damage already, along with a higher crit chance now, protect making it stay on the field for way longer that it should, and then parting shot out making your other sweepers more likely to one hit your target, keeping it alive, brining out another pokemon that is either a bulky sweeper, support specialist or a move that will be toxic to play against, swagger, making you take more damage to yourself, have a chance of being crit more, leaving your counterplay a genuine roll of the dice for the cost of 1: some hp or 2: focus sash. so overall, it would need to be implemented very very particular or make comp be a very boring slog of hopium
"In Tabletop/JRPGs where people are more tolerant of them for some reason" That "some reason" is immersion and roleplay. Randomness forces improvisation, which is valuable in Tabletop and RPG games where the point is less "winning" and more "creating an interesting experience". If you know exactly what moves you're going to do every turn of the battle in Final Fantasy, you're not engaging or improvising. Video games, especially multiplayer games, are unique among sports, tabletop, even board games because the point is invariably winning, winning consistently, and winning efficiently. Few non-video games are played like this - chess is the only one that comes to mind.
I like random crits because its funny deleting someone and when I die to a random crits theres usually a funny rag doll win win. Also jumping into a dumb situation and dying is the heart of tf2 rocket jumping into the entire enemy team and praying to get a random crit is the best feeling but when you die its kinda funny.
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 I'm just saying casual should not be the comp mode. You should be able to d*ck around and do dumb sh*t on casual. Random crits are the cherry on top. Getting a reward for those who try isn't bad.
sure, they make highlight and "how the fok did i get out of that" moments but when you are the one getting cheated out of your kill or just instantly vanished from a 1v1 cuz luck is a lot worse than the good feeling and just like lazy purple said "yes i know random crits ARE funny but its like a joke i heard 1000times i just feel bad now" so now the guy getting crited feels cheated and i feel bad for them
I like how random crits are handled in XCOM 2, most classes are capable of crazy crit builds and the ones that don’t are balanced with big guaranteed damage or insane action point efficiency. The potential damage has counters as well, with units that are crit resistant making a pure crit build less reliable. My only gripe with it is that almost every enemy in the game *can* always crit. Not necessarily a problem, most of the time it’s punishing players who have poor positioning or didn’t prioritize the right targets. However, unlike the player, enemies can crit even when you did everything right. As the saying goes: “my soldier in full cover got killed by a crit.”
the way crits are in tf2 is quite literally just a "win harder" type of mechanic what im curious about personally is how things would change if it functioned more like a pity mechanic where the likelihood of getting a crit increases based on the lack of damage you deal in a given span of time. that way, players that aren't playing well get something that helps keep them relevant in a match instead of just occupying a player slot
Random crits are like Crowd Control effects (slows, stuns, etc): Terrible in PvP, kinda fun in PvE Edit: Crit builds in Risk of Rain 2 are pretty fun, too!
Nah, crown control is at least anticipatable, and depending on the game, often have counterplay options. They can be used to initiate on target that is sticking their neck out too far, or stop some crazed assassin from just doing whatever he wants with an effective bodyguard to grapple him down. Though I will admit, in some games, hard CC (the kind that prevent you from doing anything at all) is not good game design, like a mobility based first person shooter. Hence, why sandman ball was utterly gutted to the ground. Though even that still has crowd control in the form of knockbacks and slows. Aka medium and soft cc. Oh, and I guess the mittens on backstabs or crits, but IMO, that's more of a joke item then anything.
Crits are FUN! They make TF2 unique and hilarious compared to so many other fps that have died out since 2007. All the angry ban crits people are the idiotic comp players who only want to play this game for money,
I think there’s a good point to be made though about making your game too sterile. As I’ve seen gaming ‘grow up’, there’s been a push to make it more balanced and serious at all cost, but I think in that pursuit, it can often gut a lot of the excitement. Some of my favorite games from MMO’s to FPS had some inherently lopsided balance, but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t be fun.
TF2 was NEVER designed to be a serious and balanced game to begin with. It was also never designed for competitiveness, afterall, no one play the official competitive mode.
like with rainbow 6 siege, at first it was chaotic and fun but as the years went on they went with the "esports" design philosophy and instead of tricky to approach maps we're left with "balanced" and soulless maps. I miss the original house and favela
My hot take regarding TF2 is that the randomness of random crits wouldn't be such a problem if the crit damage multiplier weren't so ridiculous. 300% damage on a projectile is pretty much always going to 1-hit you unless you're a full health heavy, leaving you no chance of retaliation. I'd scale it down to 200% or something so you have a small chance to survive and either try to escape or turn the fight back in your favor somehow. This is far more interesting than just dying, and it's where I think the concept of randomness in games shines in creating interesting unexpected scenarios. Also to give the Kritzkrieg an edge, it can keep the 300% multiplier.
my hot take is that if people didnt take a funny non-serious game so fucking seriously, than random crits are not a problem. Unless your trying to make a game where enemies get gibbed and their guts fly everywhere, about 2 sides fighting over gravel into a serious competitive game like CS:GO Lets not forget where the last time people wanted competitive into TF2, it gave us terrible balance issues, and a mode nobody plays, while effectively gimping community servers which has now lead to the bot crisis we face. Bravo competitive players, you truly know what your doing.
@@DrCranberry Wanting an archaic and redundant mechanic to be changed or removed is not the same as wanting a no-fun-allowed competitive sweatzone. Please stop making this false equivalence.
Honestly my main gripe with TF2 crits is that the two weapons that are the most annoying to get critted by, the rocket launcher and the minigun, also get the most crits because they're innately high damage weapons.
TF2 is so chaotic, random and situationally unfair without random crits that keeping them in gives players a scapegoat. Valve uses them to distract players from how unfair the game really is. You didn't die to projectile spam and frequent, preventable bad luck, you were just hit by a crocket.
I like the way you decided to go about the random crits thing, by seeing how they work in other games apart from tf2 you really get a whole idea of their existance in video games. Great video!
Just an additional thing regarding Pokemon: Crits also bypass any OFFENSIVE DEBUFFS your pokemon has, and honestly has much more significance than the defensive buffs. Buffing defence isn't really something you do in competitive pokemon anyways, because if you are going to set up buffs you may as well make it something that lets you outspeed and one-shot everything. But the debuffs are much more prevelent. Take intimidate for instance. This is a staple ability in doubles and VGC for it's ability to cut both opponent's attack by a third. Doubles is very fast paced, so any loss in monentum is extremely impactful. That's partly why Urshifu was so good in doubles in gen 8, it's surging strikes/wicked blow guaranteeing crits was invaluable to beat intimidate. Another good example if crits bypassing debuffs is found on Hydreigon in gen 9. While not necessarily it's best set, a very viable and dangerous set it can run is scope lens+focus energy. The combination of the two lets it crit on every attack, which is extremely important since draco meteor, its strongest move, also halves your special attack each use. While it lacks the immediate power of, say, choice specs or life orb, and requires a turn to set up, it gets to have the benefits of both without any of the downsides, makes the downside of draco meteor nonexistent, and turns it from a wallbreaker to a sweeper.
Another game I feel does well with crits is Cult of the Lamb. The ability to deal critical hits are locked behind one Tarot Card that gives a 10% chance (or more on rarer occasions), or Merciless Weapons, a weapon type that will notify you if a crit is ready. Both of these are entirely optional, as you almost always have a choice between 2 tarot cards, and while you could receive merciless weapons at the beginning of a run, the light sound cue and small sparkle next to your character notify you of an upcoming crit, and allows you to waste it with an empty swing
I mean, here’s how I’d fix it Basically after getting 3 kills without dying or 5 kills in total (does not include if you already used them because you got 3 in a row, like if I got 3 in a row and then got a canteen , I would then need to get another 5 kills (not including deaths) or 3 in a row), but you only get one critical in total so yeah, then after doing a taunt, the crit will be activated, you cannot switch weapons, and also all enemy player can see that you have a crit. Also after taunting, the crit will be lost on death. You can press h to pull it out, and taunt to activate it, or right click to give it to anther player (they need to taunt first for it to work). Weapons with the no random cries downside can’t be used for the canteens
Random crits in Team Fortress 2 are a game mechanic that is as antiquated as it is obsolete as it is self destructing. This mechanic for potentially breaking stalemates/pushes/holds was introduced when the game first launched, all the way back in *_2007,_* when the rocket jumping barely got you up to the awning over the bridge in 2Fort, the Pyro didn't have airblast, and there weren't even any other weapons aside from the base default load outs: _Heavy didn't even have the Sandvich._ Breaking stalemates, pushes, or holds as can now be done with things like the Kritzkrieg, the Phlogistinator, the Buff Banner, and so on, almost all of which have to be earned but which both teams -- yours and the opposition -- can still account, plan, and react to. The "need" for random crits and the "justification" they were included for in the first place has been rendered null and void by how much the meta has changed and evolved, but random crits have not changed, at all, whatsoever, *_since 2007._* George W. Bush was still president when random crits were introduced. But if that wasn't bad enough; Valve invalidated their own """justification""" for including random crits by making them more likely to happen the better you're playing. It doesn't end stalemates or stomps, it makes them more likely to continue. Random crits never even worked the way they were intended anyway, because if a team or the other doesn't have the skill to prevent or break out of stalemates without random crits, the occasional pick from a random crit is almost never going to turn the tides anyway, because the team won't be good enough to capitalize on them. There's a reason that, to the best of my knowledge, there has never been another FPS in the history of PvP video games that has ever had random crits, and that's because it's one of the biggest injustices to balanced mechanics that you could ever possibly put into a game.
For the nuzlocke point I'd say that the random crits don't screw you over as much if you play around them, and given the move/mon resources and easy ability to calculate crit damage, I'd argue it adds more depth to nuzlockes
In Hearthstone there used to be a card called "Yogg-saron puzzle box" which would cast random spells. It was good as a last resort to get out of a losing position. I think that's the best use of luck in pvp games. A last resort to overcome a doomed position, which may not even work.
Another good example are the Marvel RPG games Raven Software made like 20 years ago. You start out with 0% crit chance, but you can level up a few stats (depending on the character) for crits with certain types of attacks, and there's gear that does the same thing. And there's a mirror in that you ALSO have gear that provides flat damage buffs. You can choose not to engage with it, or build your whole squad around rolling crits for max DPS.
Why is it always when I come across an escape plan soldier or disciplinary action soldier he ALWAYS hits first with a crit and kills me from full health? I honestly can't remember ever winning a fight against one of these soldiers. The moment they whip out their melee, I immediately get that sinking feeling from pavlovian conditioning knowing that I'm gonna be feeling a cool -195
I hate how People use random crits as an excuse to beat "Bad comp players/Pubstompers" You beat people by being better, not having RNJesus bless you. RANDOM CRITS also give bad habits
12:34 I think the game where random crits sort of need to exist is actually competitive pokemon. Put down your pitchfork at me but they basically are a deterrent of hard stall or endless matches. They are sort of here to speed games up and to have blissey wake up in a cold sweat The nerf of crit rates in post gen 8 has actually gave rise to teams that constantly buff defenses or all stats as they didn't need to worry. Evasion is flat out banned or not viable in most formats thankfully
I find it kind of strange you left shin megami tensei (3 onward) out of this discussion. Crits in those RPGs with the press turn system I find to be really well implemented and overall a positive impact on the game. Especially since you can manipulate the crit rate with certain skills, but those often come with the downside of low accuracy.
Random crits feel less frustrating if they are common, because you can anticipate they will happen. That's why some people argue for keeping them on melee weapons. But on every other weapon, they are so rare that no one plans around the existence of random crits and it always feels bad when they happen. Like, I will legit hit my killbind if I get a crocket that happens to take out 3 people.
TF2 was never meant to be taken seriously. It's honestly a wonder that people do, given its' cartoonish artstyle. The vocal minority who begged for game balance only came along much later.
@numbersstationsarchive194 Cartoonish style and unseriousness aren't mutually exclusive, and initially, from 2007 to about 2012, the serious aspects where more prominent. It had goofiness in it still for sure, but it wasn't the only element in its design, military style artwork of the past was a huge inspiration. This game's art style is so convincing in fact that even a history teacher have mistaken a piece of TF2 fan content as a WW2 propaganda poster.
Pokémon nerd interjection time, As the generations have gone on, stall has become less and less concrete as a playstyle due to the offensive powercreep that keeps being brought in. That being said, there has also been defensive powercreep that introduces some stall elements, like regenerator, but for the most part offense has been outpacing defense in pokemon. Even in the older Pokémon metagames, competitive have been shifting more and more relatively offensively, though gens 1-2 are still very slow compared to every generation that follows, due to the lack of tools. Secondly, the AI has no qualms with using stall tactics, because the AI heavily favors using status over attacking directly. Many players such as Fish himself can attest to this because of the confusion spam of zubat and golbat, as fish mentioned, the minimize/double team spam on Pokémon like chansey and swellow, and Pokémon that spam acid armor or amnesia like muk and slowbro. The games AI has no issues with making battles indefinitely longer for no reason because they favor status moves if they can’t OHKO you. Aside my issues with those 2 points, i do wholely agree that crits are largely frustrating and unhealthy for pokemon as is. i have slightly different opinions on how to balance it, but i do think Fish is mostly right on the money here.
you dont need unfair mechanics for the game to be unpredictable, the mere fact of playing against other people in a real time 3d game does that more than anything else
Another game that does crits well is Payday 2, as just like Hades, enemies can't crit and it is entirely optional. If you want to use crits you have to commit it with a different build, as you have to use either the two-piece suit in a dodge-based or anarchist perk deck, or the lightweight ballistic vest with the skill inner pockets aced for certain health-based perk decks. This is because you need to manage your concealment values so that you can get to either 23 or 4 based off of whether you choose to run the skill low blow (one of two skills giving you crits) either aced or basic for a 30% chance to crit. To put simply, to crit, you must rely on random chance, gating damage with armor, or constant healing, and combing crits with headshots is incredibly quick when it comes to killing hordes.
Another game where I think random crits are implemented well is in the Xenoblade games, mainly 2 and 3 but they're pretty well implemented in 1 as well. In these games, enemies have high health pools and your crits only do 25% more damage, so getting a single random crit won't change the flow of battle or be the difference between winning and losing. However, getting a critical hit contributes to something called "party gauge" which lets you do all sorts of important things like revive party members and start chain attacks, which are essentially party-wide coordinated efforts to dish out a ton of damage. In Xenoblade 2 and 3, critical damage is what's called an "independent multiplier", in which the bonus damage done by critical hits is calculated in a separate pool from other damage increases. What this means is that critical damage allows you to greatly magnify your damage output because it essentially strengthens all your other damage increases, to the point that many of the strongest characters use crit-based builds used in conjunction with means of increasing your critical damage via accessories in Xenoblade 2 or a gem in Xenoblade 3. There are also ways that you can buff critical rate on either your crit-based party member or the entire party all at once. There's also unique mechanics like gaining more party gauge on critical hits, healing from critical damage, increasing your own damage from critical hits, etc. And even then, getting a single critical hit is unlikely to completely change the battle or make it hilariously one-sided. There are also plenty of strategies and builds that don't involve centering around critical hits that to a perfectly fine job of dishing out damage as well, so crit builds are far from your only option. Simply put, Xenoblade 2 and 3 allow you to build around getting critical hits in such a way that getting them won't completely change the nature of the game.
Random crits in rpg's are mostly a non problem because of how in most situations it just creates a more back and forth dynamic gameplay in a long draw out battle, mostly never being a instant loss because of how many options and choices you have just being a extra to spice up gameplay making it never the same player experience. The reasons random crits are bad in tf2 is, because you aren't playing alone where you don't feel bad when you crit the enemy and it instantly shuts down an encounter between the players creating the feeling unfairly or unearned.
RPGs where crits are a major deciding factor which are Pokemon smt and fire emblem. Have them as gameplay spice, challenge or as a probability you have to account for making strategy more diverse.
I feel like random Mini-Crits would feel much more fair, and I don't see why they didn't go for that. Also, with Pokemon you could have crits start as a 1.2 multiplier and then add an additional .2 for every level of defense or evasion the opposing Pokemon has.
If random crits were replaced with random mini-crits, would that fix it? No more instakills from a roll of the dice, one player just gets blessed with marginally higher damage?
Crits never bothered me. To me it's always like the guy who manages a bullseye through sheer luck, or the guy with the pistol who panic fires and manages a headshot. It's a thing that can happen, it doesn't bother me.
I feel the need to point out that in Pokémon stall tactics inherently get less Crits and make less out of them because they r attacking less with less offensively strong Pokémon.
I like this type of video talking about game mechanics as a whole in relation to TF2. Love seeing how far you've branched out from BWA and am excited for more unique content!
Picture this: you had a bad night, a bad commute, a bad work shift, a bad lunch break, bad return trip, a bad gaming chair, a bad gaming rig, and worst of all: are in a bad mood. So you boot up TF2, and three jerks get in front of you and they're all silent-aiming cheaters. So you click once and a shiny rocket blows them all up after they click in your general direction to kill you. That's the "rare high moment." The virtual jackpot. The middle finger to your bad day. That's when random crits are good: when they can be all these things at once.
I was playing showdown ranked once and had 3 pokemon while the opponent only had one left. The win was surely mine. They then proceeded to get 3 crits in a row and sweep my team. I don't play showdown anymore
@@Breakaway-ic5gj Nostalgia sells, especially to Nintendo fans what explains the sales numbers, and how Pokemon fans will always say the games they grew up with are the best regardless of quality...
@@V-JesIt's not just nostalgia. Kids to this day still like Pokemon.... Say what you will about the games (and I say their quality has dropped HARD.) But, they still know how to appeal to long time, and new fans in the design area. Hell, I still like buying cards, and getting the occasional game. (Legends Arceus is actually decent. Despite the flaws. Sc/Vi on the other hand are buggy messes that would make Bethesda blush.)
@@DataDrain02 Scarlet/Violet's bugginess are overall exaggerated that 85% of the time it's just harmless graphical glitches than actually harmful glitches like in a Bethesda game or modern Triple A game in general, while saying there has been a quality drop even tho the quality has never been consistently high in the series just proofs my point...
I feel like your pokemon argument misses the entire point of random critical hits in those games, as well as other JRPGs. Crits exist as a way to provide surprise danger and comebacks in situations that it would be impossible to have without it. They exist to stop the endless calculation and provide surprise circumstances to work through. Bad beats happen yeah, losing your favorite in a nuzlocke is rough but it provides a story and struggles, and the moment when you are a hit away from death and are saved by getting a crit is something that you remember and can tell stories about. There is a reason they still exist in fire emblem, even when for the longest time they were exclusively permadeath, they lead to good stories, both good and bad. I believe that you are correct that they're shit in TF2, but that's entirely different than their use in turn based games
@@ShakerSilver yeah like, 3d real time pvp action games already do, its effectively random whether there will be a soldier around the corner, but thats something you CAN prepare for, you cant prepare for if he will insta kill you with 300 damage
I think he should try that out. I’m quite curious if that would work because it might mean someone might hold off on shooting the enemy because they want to save that critical.
like @Loibu said this plugin was already tested and it sucked. Players farmed crits at spawn and instead of fighting they were waisting their time at spawn and not defending/doing their objective.
As someone who actually plays competitive Pokémon it shocks me hearing the take "crits are designed to break stall". And claiming "stall" is a prevalent part of competitive Pokémon at large. Crits in a turn based strategy are inherently random and inconsistent. Part of the skill of Pokémon (most of) is playing the odds and not overly fixating in the result of 1 game. In an offensive slug feast crits are more decisive given how neither team is likely to have a second check to a threat. Where as stall (in the gens/formats where it is viable) is typically was less phased by crits because bulky teams don’t tend to crumple nearly as fast because of a single pokemon getting stung a little harder. Crits in Pokémon aren’t balanced around competitive, they are balanced around single player and giving you "anime moments" as it’s commonly called, moments when a sure win because a close battled or where a sure fire loss is brought back. Competitive Pokémon is one of the few things I know about when it comes to competitive video games and their balance. Long story short I’m ok with crits in competitive for the same reasons I am in tf2, it’s part of the game. If I didn’t enjoy the game I wouldn’t be playing it competitively. Crits aren’t nearly as egregious as things like sleep rng or ice beam freezes, hence why those things have clauses and no one has ever seriously recommended banning crits. It’s so weird to be tf2(a game with no big prise money games or huge tournament scene where your status as a player is a part of your status in the community) crits and being hyper optimal and becoming super salty over unbalanced weapons and mechanics is so normal. And in contrast competitive Pokémon (where winning/placing in tournaments is a huge deal) the community seems to like be more excepting that a game doesn’t need to be deterministic to be fun. Its just weird to me the cartoony fps I played since I was a kid with 0 stakes seems to have a much less room for fun than many actually competitive games where your results actually matter~
TF2 random crit is fun, I dont care how many people complain about TF2 random crit. It still fun for me. It makes the predictable TF2 gameplay far more chaotic and its still fun to play after all these years. It makes me wonder, after 15 years of TF2's existence, why are people starting to complain about it lately?
How ive always looked at crits is how often the action that triggers them occurs. In mobas like dota, the action that triggers them happens a LOT, and thus, they are much easier to balance as what is effectively just a boost to the overall damage you deal.
I played on a no random crits server once, and honestly, it was painful. It kinda instantly removed melee weapons for me, and just made the game little too much stressful. I couldn't stop thinking about how there's no way I'm gonna get that crit when I would love to have a chance to. Bullet crits are kinda the one when you feel alive. You can still die against that army of four people, but you can also delete them one by one, getting a lot of emotions out of that. TF2 just doesn't feel the same without them
"WAAA WAAAA I COULDNT INSTA KILL PEOPLE BY WALKING AT THEM WITH MY SHOVEL WAAA" babycry.png demoknight doesnt have random crits, and he is perfectly valid to play even when he is hard countered by sentries, pyro, and force a nature scouts, and almost entirely countered by heavy
I think the comments about player choice ring in even stronger when compared to Pokemon, given how much player choice those games are also taking away for any way to experience the games the developers don't happen to like... It's an interesting perspective, and I like this direction for crits, but I would argue that part of the point of random crits in *any* game is to be unpredictable, and crits being simply "you get them or you don't" weakens their impact. You can't have highs without lows. A game can very easily get stale and solved without a hint of spice, and while crits may not be the *only* way to do it (nor the best), I don't think they often factor into game design as much as you say. (Maybe they should! But it depends on who you're talking to.) Even in TF2, a game as polished as it is in every other instance, I think it purely serves to *be* unpredictable. I think it's bad for learning the game and being able to gauge how well you're doing, and I think people being able to queue into games where they are just off would be nice (it shouldn't be *exclusively* Uncletopia, is my point...), but their unpredictability can be amusing, at least to me. That being said, their ability to snowball (which as far as I know, wasn't there on launch - it was to combat crit hacking) is a genuine and absolutely massive problem with their implementation. Likewise, Pokemon's game design is one I think you're giving too much credit to - because Pokemon's crits are there to make sure anything (no matter how tanky) can have a flaw somewhere at any time. Defensive builds are one of many potential strategies that fall under this category, I don't think Game Freak was immediately thinking "this is a way to break stall!". That being said, evasion sidestepping this is a major flaw in this plan, which you rightfully pointed out (evasion is so much worse than crits...). Not to mention, Gen 5 had a lot of experiments I wish they did more with, and Frost Breath is only one of them :c This is all personal critique, I don't think either perspective is 100% right or 100% wrong. I do think that unpredictability is an important way to make sure games have staying power, but crits are one of many ways to do that, and there's also likely to be better ways to do that that we haven't seen much of yet. It makes it all the more interesting that Hades gives you the option of a dedicated crit build in a game as already unpredictable in moment to moment gameplay as a roguelite.
personally i feel in tf2 one of the best ways to heavily lighten the burden of random crits is to relegate them to melees only and then if that needs further improvement, rework the system so you have to build up a crit swing before you can use it and visibility display it to yourself AND the enemy before use, crit effects an' all (kinda like that idea shounic did)
Well the problem with the Shounic model is that it allows you to farm a random crit on medic and use it to essentially insta kill a spy which is annoying. Although melee (and mvm because the robots aren't gonna call bull) only makes sense.
@@appelofdoom8211 im not sure how it allows you to farm crits on medic but if that ever happens then rework it so teammates don't effect the build meter or something like "only damage builds the meter and 80% of melee damage turns into charge and 3% of ranged damage turns onto charge" or something around that area
@@nigeladams8321 ok but if you just used more situational awareness with sound cues, visual effects, and the killfeed you wouldnt need random crits to save you from an inevitable death due to your poor awareness
In Gen 6 and beyond, the way crit stacking works was actually changed. It is now possible to gain a 100% critical hit rate when getting a “+3” crit chance. Most commonly, Sniper Kingdra uses this in conjunction with a Scope Lens and Focus Energy to guarantee Draco Meteor crits, which also bypass offensive nerfs. I am also a massive fan of how Fire Emblem handles crits. Critical hits in Fire Emblem are most commonly calculated through a combination of a unit’s Skill stat, and innate weapon crit bonuses. For example, a Killing Edge will usually give you a bonus 30% crit chance. In Fire Emblem, crits will usually triple your damage, but in some games like Genealogy of the Holy War and Thracia 776, it instead doubles your “Attack”, the combination of your Strength/Magic and the weapon’s might. This means that crits in those games deal much more damage to highly defensive enemies like Armor Knights. Since in most Fire Emblem games, your units are much stronger than the enemies, as they have a numbers advantage, you will almost surely have a higher crit chance than them. However, this also depends on a unit’s class. For example, the Hero class can utilize both swords and axes, making them a versatile unit for approaching a variety of enemy types, but a unit like a Berserker may only use axes, but in exchange not only can they have a higher “weapon rank”, accessing the most powerful axes in the game, they will have a passive crit boost for ALL of their attacks. The most extreme example is Binding Blade, where units of these types gain an innate +30% crit to all attacks, essentially making all of their weapons Killer weapons, and making Killer weapons twice as effective. There are several tactics in Fire Emblem that allow you to get 100% crits. You also can reduce the amount of crits a unit takes by boosting their Luck stat, which helps defensive units of your own remain consistent at tanking. While being hit by a crit and losing a unit may suck, it leads to a lot of the flavor in Ironman playthroughs, and gives the game a very distinct identity as far as tactical RPGs go, alongside the permadeath mechanic. I love the approach the franchise has taken to critical hits, and how the potency of them shifts from game to game as they alter other mechanics to give each entry its own unique identity.
I think the purpose of random crits in TF2 is to keep the players playing longer. Hear me out, while the implementation of random crits in this game are arguably the worst in gaming history, I think that only applies during the short-term. Yes, it feels unfair in the moment, but that unpredictability helps create unique experiences for the player throughout their time playing which makes them subconsciously want to keep playing. Sure, you won't remember every instance you got destroyed or destroyed someone else by a random crit, but I think that's maybe the point. The concept as a whole is still talked about, but when I think back in my time of playing TF2, unless I have it recorded, there's not one instance that sticks out in my memory it all kind of just melds together into the concept of imbalance and unfairness that's usually associated with random crits. TF2 is the subtlest Lovecraftian Horror.
Like they said, they're supposed to be high rare moments, I do agree. It's a mechanic thought for a more casual setting, say in example Valve's casual servers. It is not supposed to be fair, it is just a kind of evil laugh. Like a dark humor sort of thing.
Random crits are funny on either end. For me funny is good so yeah, random crits are good. Dilemma solved lol. In casual you don't even get to pick who you're planning against or most of your teammates, it's all a beautiful mess, you make due what what you have and laugh at the absurd circumstances. That's TF2 for me.
I just think it's funny that people are still complaining about it even to today. During my whole 3 years of playing this game they never bothered me once. I actually enjoy them. In the grand scheme they're just REALLY not a big deal. In the long term the better player will always thrive.
There is a reason for them, and it makes sense to me. Random crits puts fear into people. It gives the game this sense that you are never safe. Imagine if you are a pro player and random crits are gone, how are people going to get you. You are basically unkillable. It is random crits that prevent you from underestimate your opponents. In comp, if you play spy and you miss you are history. In casual you have a chance to survive with the miracle crit.
I definitely can't comment on them in TF2, but it is definitely a concept I've never heard complained about in any other setting... Ever really. Now, mind you, I don't play competitively in anything because it's just not how I play, but I've always enjoyed the concept of crits in games. I know a lot of people really enjoy the strategic reliability of games... But I find games that can be perfectly 'solved' boring as all heck - a little unreliability goes a long way, but that's just my two bits. They are always a thing that is satisfying to get, or something that you have to keep in mind to plan around with your resource management.
As a bit of a PS, another form of crit I think you would be interesting that I've seen a handful of games do. Instead of a crit being a damage multiplier, it is simply a guaranteed max roll. I.E. if you have a damage range of 2-7, instead of a crit doing 14 damage, it just guarantees you will do 7 damage, bypassing the roll entirely. So you aren't getting 'extra' damage per-se, you just guarantee you've done the most you can. For those who hate crits, maybe that's an implementation they can enjoy.
Hey I just wanted to say as someone who's played a lot of pkmn completive, I think you gave a fair and reasonable angle for p much everything. I just wanted to say that weather or not the meta is stall heavy changes generation to generation, with the big offenders being gens 3 and 8. And that's also where it's hard because me getting a crit vs stall in gen 3 is more "yeah I'm throwing out moves and your just healing/stalling so I'm using this randomness to my favor" vs let's say gen 6 where the entire game can be over is a sweepers crits once on a switch you should have otherwise done. So even in competitive world the concept of crits swings wildly
There are only two times I appreciate random crits in TF2: dealing with the power combo that's stomping your entire team, and killing the b-hopping squirmers who SOMEHOW manage to wriggle their way out of death over and over again. Sending these people back to spawn by any means necessary, even if it's only for a few seconds, is one of my guilty pleasures.
What if there was a guaranteed crit system? If you can get 5 or so non critical kills in a row without dying, then your next attack with a weapon that can deal random crits is guaranteed to crit.
Someone made a experiment and a video about said experiment where you can actually see when your next would be a crit by making the weapon glow teamcolored like it was crit-boosted, it lets you know when you are able to do massive damage to a player and lets said player know that you will end him with a crit.
@@numbersstationsarchive194 yeah, you can still not see whether a soldier is comming around the corner, and giving him crits on top of that surprise is pointless
Here is the problem with your entire discussion on TF2 random crits... RNG was BUILT INTO THE GAME FROM THE START. Random bullet spread, random DAMAGE spread, random crits. These were the literal identity of the game, until people cried about it enough for valve to change it. Also, the reason random crits are in the game is to prevent stalemates where people are unloading for fucking ever at each other but no one gets a kill because healing can be absurd when stacked. OH AND LOOK, you even think that breaking through defensive stalls is a GOOD reason to have crits in a game.
I once saw this video about TF2 crits in which if your gonna get a random crit on your next attack, your weapon will glow in team colors, indicating you have a crit ready.
The results were interesting. The video and people said that while does makes random crits more predictable and bullshit. However people still said get rid of them as it makes ambushes not worth it and spy even weaker as a medic can hide his melee crit and the likes.
This just in, Fish admits that items in Smash Bros are a healthy gameplay mechanic. >completely optional for the player >you know the abilities provided so none of it is a surprise >have the express purpose of giving characters gameplay options they otherwise don't have >when decided to be used, only violates the rights of people that don't have any (Smash players)
7:58 that could be interesting, an upgrade for MVM that affects crit chance (either on the weapon or the class slot) going from 20% higher crit chance to prob 30% (though this would act as a nerf to crit canteens, maybe just remove crit canteens and make it so the crit upgrade stacks up to 100% but is stupidly expensive) then completely remove random crits for all weapons in MVM and basegame
but why? why would you do that, damage upgrades already exist and everything else just helps you do more damage, and crit canteens increase the skill ceiling
It’s good when you’re bad at the game. Gives the player a little ego boost so they keep playing. Essential it’s a handicap and I kinda like it being there. Sure it sucks when it seems like EVERYONE BUT ME is getting them, but when I get them…that’s a different story.
I'd hardly call tf2 a good example of bad implementation of crits, it's more inline with half assed. There are PLENTY of games which implement them WAY worse than what we got with tf2. "..Without any warning or reason." Ya that's a hard disagree. Not only does tf2 EXPLICITLY make different crit sound effects for when one happens, but they have specific team coloured particle effects which draw one's attention to it so they are aware it exists as part of it's design. The only time you won't know one is going to happen is if you are either being attacked with a melee weapon or so out of position that you are point blank with an enemy when one happens.
In TF2, I never really minded dying to Random Crits, sure I'll get frustrated if it repetitively happens but compared to other games re-spawn times are relativity short which is nice.
It honestly sounds like TF2 has simply ruined the concept of random crits for u to the point that seeing random crits in other games could make you mald. They really aren't that bad outside of the single competitive multiplayer game you play.
![[TF2] The Hitman's Heatmaker Is A Weapon That Exists](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/KZN-7JPwM6U/mqdefault.jpg)
![ทุกครั้งที่หลับตา (Lucid Dream) - AYLA's [ Official MV ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4i1OBAQyv58/mqdefault.jpg)
They are good when I get them. They are bad when they kill me. Easy
this guys gets bitches.
Man shut up, this is such a cop out answer
Tsmt
Good when it benefits me, bad when it hurts me. Modern US political discourse.
@@moonblaze2713dude brought up politics in a video about random crits in a silly hat game 💀💀💀
Something you're off about is that crits were originally introduced in Table Top games to help simulate the chaos of actual combat, and they remained in RPG games for largely the same reason.
yeah its wired how he just kinda misses that aspect of it
@phantomviper211 because it undermines his narrative. Of course his negativity bias doesn't allow him to see it.
In case you didn't notice this ain't dnd or 40k.
Yeah, they work quite well for that in turn based games, to represent all the variables they cannot simulate, same as things like miss chance.
I mean, random crits in something like D&D is fine because generally it's a PvE game. You're not facing another player, in most cases, and the DM is using varying levels of strategy and tactics depending on the situation. The enemies ALSO have just as much of a chance to crit as you do.
In pathfinder, another TTRPG, crits are changed entirely. Some weapons have a larger crit range, which means you crit more often, but you still need to roll a "crit confirm" to actually crit, because people tend not to find those super random moments in most games very fun. It's hype af to get a nat 20 when fighting a monster, but its frustrating af when a creature nat 20s you and nearly 1 shots you because you weren't accounting for it.
Its why I like pathfinder's system, rolling a nat 20 doesn't guarantee a crit and feels more as if "well, instead of randomly swinging and happening to hit something vital" it makes it feel more like "I noticed an opening in an enemy's defense and now I need to make sure I can strike it" (with the crit confirm mechanic).
tl;dr random crits really aren't that fun in any game. They're a form of power creep which is fine in PvE games but in PvP games where the idea is everyone is on a level playing field and SKILL makes the difference, they're bad and reward players who aren't that skilled. That's ignoring the fact that in TF2, it's also essentially a snowball mechanic, rewarding the good players FOR being good.
10:31 As someone who not only used their Torterra to sweep the entire game as a kid, but ALSO named them TWIGGY aswell, this hit like a sledgehammer crit to the gut, but in a positive way.
My friend also did this, and named him Twiggy. Must just be a common gamer name.
Same man, it’s just a great name
Imagine if MVM robots had random crits enabled.
It's wave 1, a dozen Soldier-bots jump down and - whoop, there goes the medic.
They often have 100% crit tho
@@fujiwaranonekobiodrando1257but you can predict it cuz their weapon are glowing. It would still be more annoyin to die to random crit , than attack that you could predict and avoid.
@@Someone_s_nick2 I love random crits
@@fujiwaranonekobiodrando1257 100% isnt random.
@@kayoh9364 I am talking about my love for random crits tho. not the 100% crit
I think a lot of people forget that criticals in tabletops can often times be less luck.
Pathfinder 1e was designed with crit builds in mind, and it's completely valid.
And in D&D 5e there are a few ways to guarantee crits like using melee attacks against Paralyzed and Unconscious creatures while within 5' of them, but also ways to get higher Crit rates outside of that. For example, a multiclassed Barbarian (any subclass)/Fighter (Champion) can give themselves advantage on their strength-based attacks at-will in exchange for granting their enemies advantage on attacks against them through Reckless Attack, and have Improved Critical to double their base crit chance (gaining crits on 19s and 20s instead of just 20s). And that's before we delve into the world of Hexblades and Knife-Ears with Elven Accuraccy and ways to give themselves advantage
Based PF1e enjoyer, I can smell the swashbuckler build you demolished the battlefield with from here
Actually I did it with a Tetsubo
Crits in TF2 manage to do a marvelous thing where they're both semi-random AND a snowball mechanic for people dealing high damage. Two bad mechanics in one, how amazing!
And that miraculously combines to make it so the better you do the more people will think you have hacks because of the higher amounts of random crits
@@bobertastic6541Negative plus negative equal negative???????????
@@uhhhhhmmmmn it's positive plus positive equals negative actually
Positive for player and positive for good player = negative enviroment
@@zaitop7821 Ohhhhh
That makes more sense while also being an incorrect math equation!
Negative times negative equals positive
In competitive pokemon, low accuracy moves tend to decide matches more often than crits. Aaron Cybertron Zheng missed 3 will o wisps in a row and gamefreak buffed the accuracy from 75 to 85 in the next generation. I get that these moves are balanced with their accuracy but it feels bad when you end up in the receiving end of Fissure hitting 3 times in a row or Draco metor missing 3 times in a row which both has happened to me.
ive once missed a 99% accurancy population bomb(using wide lens) on the first hit going from what would have about a 93% chance to hit a 300 power move(using technician) to doing 0 damage and this is why I hate inaccurate moves with a passion.
The entirety of rock type moves.
Yeah especially because pokemon crits are just 1.5x damage nowadays they're nowhere near the 0x multiplier of a miss
Pokémon crits don't just ignore defense buffs, they also ignore your own attack drops. That alone makes a crit from the opponent far scarier than a crit you get yourself, something may seem helpless but if they get a crit and aren't a burned physical attacker you're suddenly put on the back foot
I don't understand Pokemon enough to do it, but one of my favorite things is when someone has a tiny little Pokemon that their opponent underestimates and then they just break check the opponent with a ton of debuffs
@@nigeladams8321 It really depends on what the little guy has, because even if they can be strong, they also have to be able to stand up to their opponents who don't have to set up to threaten a ko on you
Also pokemon crit are actually more likely to effect stall strats because you spend more turns setting up meaning more attacks received means more chances to crit.
To be fair, TF2's designs generally indicating function only applies to the character designs. Things like unlocks are fairly hit or miss in terms of what they look like relating to what they do.
My "favorite" examples of this discrepancy are
1: The backscatter, with what appears to be TWO non-detachable drum mags, having a mag size penalty
2: The iron bomber, which has a roll reduction gimmick applied to its SPHERICAL projectiles
@@roboticjanitor3332 3: The Loch-n-Load having 3 shots, despite it only having 2 barrels
@@LoraLoibu tbf loch n load used to only have two shots
@@roboticjanitor3332 to add to the grenade launchers bit, you could think that the pills would have bigger hitboxes than the balls, but they're all the same i think ?
This has been in the game since launch. Unlocks haven't. It doesn't really apply, here, along with most of what tf2 has been lambashed for. You could almost say that Random Crits were the original sin.
easy, always. They are gifted upon thee who are new, struggling with keeping up, holding their melee steadily in their new-born arms and- of course the soldier with the three unusuals got two in a row
There’s a single game I know besides the one you mentioned that actually lets you choose how random the game is and that’s Panzer Corps 2. Literally just gives you a slider from 0-100 that lets you choose if you want to have your tank unit die in one hit or not. It’s great!
random crits in tf2 have always seemed like a strange case to me
They have been part of the games identity since the beginning to stand out from the other thousand FPSers, plus, they’re hilarious with TF2s random nature!
@@Labyrinth6000my balls.
@@Labyrinth6000 until you get the receiving end of the "FUNNY"
Ha! A “Strange” Case, good one.
Not really it's been fitting of the game's silly nature since the beginning.
I have a good idea for a video: why don’t you go through some of the weapons on your rehabilitated server, your original thought process, and how that thought process changed when you began seeing them in game.
Shounic had an interesting event/video on TF2 random crits, where he made your weapon have crit glow before you shoot a random crit. It definitely changes how unfair random crits feel, you know when you're going to crit and so does the enemy. The only "downside" is people farm for crits to have a guaranteed crit before leaving spawn or entering a fight, however in Shounic's video they explained that it didn't seem to be overpowered since both sides can do it and ofc the crits are visible. It's not a perfect change but if it were implemented in TF2 id see it as a welcome change, apart from F2Ps/new players learning that farming for random crits is a mechanic which is not a good thing to learn early on.
do we want crit farming to be a key part of respawning
@@tonyasajit2417 In shounics video there were only a few people farming crits after a respawn, most people were just leaving spawn as normal.
@@yeetmcmeat it takes more than one shounic experiment for something like crit farming to become a meta. imagine the game after a year or two of it being implemented
@@tonyasajit2417 I'm not saying the video is Proof its a good change, I'm only saying that it could be. I don't think its the best choice but its better than removing random crits outright.
@@yeetmcmeat i just dont understand the hate. why does anything have to be done to random crits in the first place? tf2 players know its a wacky and crazy game but want to remove all the things that make playing it so chaotic (like random crits & bullet spread). i just dont understand
ok, as someone who is into comp Pokémon way too much, turning crits to be more likely the more stat boosts the opponent has sounds good on paper, but in practice will force the meta to shift to very defensive Pokémon naturally, so they get the incredible bulk without the chance to be shut down, or will become a nonfactor because the pokemon are to frail to survive a hit anyway, two key examples i can think of is occa berry ferrothorn and every single gengar past gen 1, in ferrothorn singles, it became a uber staple because it was so damn hard to kill, and still had respectable damage output through power whip or something like that ( i dont like thoes sorts of moves) and would just kinda sit on the field without consequence. and with gengar, its balanced by being really frail, but super fast and strong, so its going to kill you, or your going to kill it, even without a crit like, 70% of the time, probably the most prominent benifactor and easily one of the most invasive pokemon in the recent metagames ( at least in gen 8) incineroar, that stupid fucking macho cat lowers your attack, raises crit chance, deals way too much damage already, along with a higher crit chance now, protect making it stay on the field for way longer that it should, and then parting shot out making your other sweepers more likely to one hit your target, keeping it alive, brining out another pokemon that is either a bulky sweeper, support specialist or a move that will be toxic to play against, swagger, making you take more damage to yourself, have a chance of being crit more, leaving your counterplay a genuine roll of the dice for the cost of 1: some hp or 2: focus sash. so overall, it would need to be implemented very very particular or make comp be a very boring slog of hopium
"In Tabletop/JRPGs where people are more tolerant of them for some reason"
That "some reason" is immersion and roleplay. Randomness forces improvisation, which is valuable in Tabletop and RPG games where the point is less "winning" and more "creating an interesting experience". If you know exactly what moves you're going to do every turn of the battle in Final Fantasy, you're not engaging or improvising.
Video games, especially multiplayer games, are unique among sports, tabletop, even board games because the point is invariably winning, winning consistently, and winning efficiently. Few non-video games are played like this - chess is the only one that comes to mind.
and the fact that tf2 is a 3d real time action game, not a turn based tabletop game, the unpredictability of combat is already simulated
I like random crits because its funny deleting someone and when I die to a random crits theres usually a funny rag doll win win. Also jumping into a dumb situation and dying is the heart of tf2 rocket jumping into the entire enemy team and praying to get a random crit is the best feeling but when you die its kinda funny.
if all you wanna do is see funny ragdolls just play gmod
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 I'm just saying casual should not be the comp mode. You should be able to d*ck around and do dumb sh*t on casual. Random crits are the cherry on top. Getting a reward for those who try isn't bad.
sure, they make highlight and "how the fok did i get out of that" moments
but when you are the one getting cheated out of your kill or just instantly vanished from a 1v1 cuz luck is a lot worse than the good feeling and just like lazy purple said "yes i know random crits ARE funny but its like a joke i heard 1000times i just feel bad now" so now the guy getting crited feels cheated and i feel bad for them
I like how random crits are handled in XCOM 2, most classes are capable of crazy crit builds and the ones that don’t are balanced with big guaranteed damage or insane action point efficiency. The potential damage has counters as well, with units that are crit resistant making a pure crit build less reliable. My only gripe with it is that almost every enemy in the game *can* always crit. Not necessarily a problem, most of the time it’s punishing players who have poor positioning or didn’t prioritize the right targets. However, unlike the player, enemies can crit even when you did everything right. As the saying goes: “my soldier in full cover got killed by a crit.”
That's X-com, Baby!
Yeah same honestly. Even if crit damage was just reduced for being in full cover or something would go a long way to fixing my issues with it.
Part of Xcom's design philosophy is to have straight up bullshit that can fuck you over. It's admirable in a way.
the way crits are in tf2 is quite literally just a "win harder" type of mechanic
what im curious about personally is how things would change if it functioned more like a pity mechanic where the likelihood of getting a crit increases based on the lack of damage you deal in a given span of time.
that way, players that aren't playing well get something that helps keep them relevant in a match instead of just occupying a player slot
Random crits are like Crowd Control effects (slows, stuns, etc):
Terrible in PvP, kinda fun in PvE
Edit: Crit builds in Risk of Rain 2 are pretty fun, too!
Nah, crown control is at least anticipatable, and depending on the game, often have counterplay options. They can be used to initiate on target that is sticking their neck out too far, or stop some crazed assassin from just doing whatever he wants with an effective bodyguard to grapple him down. Though I will admit, in some games, hard CC (the kind that prevent you from doing anything at all) is not good game design, like a mobility based first person shooter. Hence, why sandman ball was utterly gutted to the ground. Though even that still has crowd control in the form of knockbacks and slows. Aka medium and soft cc.
Oh, and I guess the mittens on backstabs or crits, but IMO, that's more of a joke item then anything.
Crit in Risk of Rain is just a toggle. You either have 100% Crit or you just started a run. :P
@@deathdealer3333 Very true
Crits are FUN! They make TF2 unique and hilarious compared to so many other fps that have died out since 2007. All the angry ban crits people are the idiotic comp players who only want to play this game for money,
I think there’s a good point to be made though about making your game too sterile. As I’ve seen gaming ‘grow up’, there’s been a push to make it more balanced and serious at all cost, but I think in that pursuit, it can often gut a lot of the excitement. Some of my favorite games from MMO’s to FPS had some inherently lopsided balance, but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t be fun.
TF2 was NEVER designed to be a serious and balanced game to begin with. It was also never designed for competitiveness, afterall, no one play the official competitive mode.
like with rainbow 6 siege, at first it was chaotic and fun but as the years went on they went with the "esports" design philosophy and instead of tricky to approach maps we're left with "balanced" and soulless maps. I miss the original house and favela
@@Labyrinth6000 this is really unfair to tf2. you dont know that.
My hot take regarding TF2 is that the randomness of random crits wouldn't be such a problem if the crit damage multiplier weren't so ridiculous. 300% damage on a projectile is pretty much always going to 1-hit you unless you're a full health heavy, leaving you no chance of retaliation. I'd scale it down to 200% or something so you have a small chance to survive and either try to escape or turn the fight back in your favor somehow. This is far more interesting than just dying, and it's where I think the concept of randomness in games shines in creating interesting unexpected scenarios.
Also to give the Kritzkrieg an edge, it can keep the 300% multiplier.
replace it with mini crits
or just remove it entirely, noone cares when its turned off, they only complain on paper
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413facts bet valve could remove random crits without saying do and no one would notice
still a melee hit can 1 shot light classes, high damage at random isnt balanced
my hot take is that if people didnt take a funny non-serious game so fucking seriously, than random crits are not a problem. Unless your trying to make a game where enemies get gibbed and their guts fly everywhere, about 2 sides fighting over gravel into a serious competitive game like CS:GO
Lets not forget where the last time people wanted competitive into TF2, it gave us terrible balance issues, and a mode nobody plays, while effectively gimping community servers which has now lead to the bot crisis we face.
Bravo competitive players, you truly know what your doing.
@@DrCranberry Wanting an archaic and redundant mechanic to be changed or removed is not the same as wanting a no-fun-allowed competitive sweatzone. Please stop making this false equivalence.
Honestly my main gripe with TF2 crits is that the two weapons that are the most annoying to get critted by, the rocket launcher and the minigun, also get the most crits because they're innately high damage weapons.
It's crazy because a single crit on a minigun is SEVERAL LASER BEAMS
TF2 is so chaotic, random and situationally unfair without random crits that keeping them in gives players a scapegoat. Valve uses them to distract players from how unfair the game really is.
You didn't die to projectile spam and frequent, preventable bad luck, you were just hit by a crocket.
I mean you could just make the game not frustrating
When you get them, obviously. They make "rare high moments".
I like the way you decided to go about the random crits thing, by seeing how they work in other games apart from tf2 you really get a whole idea of their existance in video games. Great video!
Just an additional thing regarding Pokemon:
Crits also bypass any OFFENSIVE DEBUFFS your pokemon has, and honestly has much more significance than the defensive buffs. Buffing defence isn't really something you do in competitive pokemon anyways, because if you are going to set up buffs you may as well make it something that lets you outspeed and one-shot everything. But the debuffs are much more prevelent. Take intimidate for instance. This is a staple ability in doubles and VGC for it's ability to cut both opponent's attack by a third. Doubles is very fast paced, so any loss in monentum is extremely impactful. That's partly why Urshifu was so good in doubles in gen 8, it's surging strikes/wicked blow guaranteeing crits was invaluable to beat intimidate. Another good example if crits bypassing debuffs is found on Hydreigon in gen 9. While not necessarily it's best set, a very viable and dangerous set it can run is scope lens+focus energy. The combination of the two lets it crit on every attack, which is extremely important since draco meteor, its strongest move, also halves your special attack each use. While it lacks the immediate power of, say, choice specs or life orb, and requires a turn to set up, it gets to have the benefits of both without any of the downsides, makes the downside of draco meteor nonexistent, and turns it from a wallbreaker to a sweeper.
"In Pokemon, you can't really spec into critical hits."
Meowscarade: [laughs in Flower Trick]
Intellion: [cries in removed Focus Energy]
Another game I feel does well with crits is Cult of the Lamb. The ability to deal critical hits are locked behind one Tarot Card that gives a 10% chance (or more on rarer occasions), or Merciless Weapons, a weapon type that will notify you if a crit is ready. Both of these are entirely optional, as you almost always have a choice between 2 tarot cards, and while you could receive merciless weapons at the beginning of a run, the light sound cue and small sparkle next to your character notify you of an upcoming crit, and allows you to waste it with an empty swing
I mean, here’s how I’d fix it
Basically after getting 3 kills without dying or 5 kills in total (does not include if you already used them because you got 3 in a row, like if I got 3 in a row and then got a canteen , I would then need to get another 5 kills (not including deaths) or 3 in a row), but you only get one critical in total so yeah, then after doing a taunt, the crit will be activated, you cannot switch weapons, and also all enemy player can see that you have a crit. Also after taunting, the crit will be lost on death. You can press h to pull it out, and taunt to activate it, or right click to give it to anther player (they need to taunt first for it to work). Weapons with the no random cries downside can’t be used for the canteens
Random crits in Team Fortress 2 are a game mechanic that is as antiquated as it is obsolete as it is self destructing. This mechanic for potentially breaking stalemates/pushes/holds was introduced when the game first launched, all the way back in *_2007,_* when the rocket jumping barely got you up to the awning over the bridge in 2Fort, the Pyro didn't have airblast, and there weren't even any other weapons aside from the base default load outs: _Heavy didn't even have the Sandvich._ Breaking stalemates, pushes, or holds as can now be done with things like the Kritzkrieg, the Phlogistinator, the Buff Banner, and so on, almost all of which have to be earned but which both teams -- yours and the opposition -- can still account, plan, and react to. The "need" for random crits and the "justification" they were included for in the first place has been rendered null and void by how much the meta has changed and evolved, but random crits have not changed, at all, whatsoever, *_since 2007._* George W. Bush was still president when random crits were introduced.
But if that wasn't bad enough; Valve invalidated their own """justification""" for including random crits by making them more likely to happen the better you're playing. It doesn't end stalemates or stomps, it makes them more likely to continue. Random crits never even worked the way they were intended anyway, because if a team or the other doesn't have the skill to prevent or break out of stalemates without random crits, the occasional pick from a random crit is almost never going to turn the tides anyway, because the team won't be good enough to capitalize on them.
There's a reason that, to the best of my knowledge, there has never been another FPS in the history of PvP video games that has ever had random crits, and that's because it's one of the biggest injustices to balanced mechanics that you could ever possibly put into a game.
17:27 thats the Laser Focus move that has seen zero usage and was removed after 2 Generations. 1.5x over 2 turns isn't worth the crit
For the nuzlocke point I'd say that the random crits don't screw you over as much if you play around them, and given the move/mon resources and easy ability to calculate crit damage, I'd argue it adds more depth to nuzlockes
In Hearthstone there used to be a card called "Yogg-saron puzzle box" which would cast random spells. It was good as a last resort to get out of a losing position.
I think that's the best use of luck in pvp games. A last resort to overcome a doomed position, which may not even work.
7:45 "...the only person to try and make a defense for random crits in TF2 was a Heavy main"
Man, now you have me missing Rydercycle :(
-Enters video
-"When you get them"
-Exits video
Another good example are the Marvel RPG games Raven Software made like 20 years ago. You start out with 0% crit chance, but you can level up a few stats (depending on the character) for crits with certain types of attacks, and there's gear that does the same thing. And there's a mirror in that you ALSO have gear that provides flat damage buffs. You can choose not to engage with it, or build your whole squad around rolling crits for max DPS.
Why is it always when I come across an escape plan soldier or disciplinary action soldier he ALWAYS hits first with a crit and kills me from full health? I honestly can't remember ever winning a fight against one of these soldiers. The moment they whip out their melee, I immediately get that sinking feeling from pavlovian conditioning knowing that I'm gonna be feeling a cool -195
This mechanic is just like how bad tripping was in brawl
good comparison. oh youre gonna fight a soldier? too bad idiot, he is just gonna delete you instantly before you can even rev up, fuck you
I hate how People use random crits as an excuse to beat "Bad comp players/Pubstompers"
You beat people by being better, not having RNJesus bless you. RANDOM CRITS also give bad habits
12:34 I think the game where random crits sort of need to exist is actually competitive pokemon.
Put down your pitchfork at me but they basically are a deterrent of hard stall or endless matches.
They are sort of here to speed games up and to have blissey wake up in a cold sweat
The nerf of crit rates in post gen 8 has actually gave rise to teams that constantly buff defenses or all stats as they didn't need to worry.
Evasion is flat out banned or not viable in most formats thankfully
Elective crits in fallout 4: I shleep
Random crits in fallout 3: REAL SHID
I find it kind of strange you left shin megami tensei (3 onward) out of this discussion. Crits in those RPGs with the press turn system I find to be really well implemented and overall a positive impact on the game. Especially since you can manipulate the crit rate with certain skills, but those often come with the downside of low accuracy.
Random crits feel less frustrating if they are common, because you can anticipate they will happen. That's why some people argue for keeping them on melee weapons. But on every other weapon, they are so rare that no one plans around the existence of random crits and it always feels bad when they happen. Like, I will legit hit my killbind if I get a crocket that happens to take out 3 people.
TF2 was never meant to be taken seriously. It's honestly a wonder that people do, given its' cartoonish artstyle. The vocal minority who begged for game balance only came along much later.
@@numbersstationsarchive194wasn't class balance and the concepts of generalists and specialists always a thing.
@@randomperson7350 No lmao. Certainly not before 2015.
@numbersstationsarchive194 Cartoonish style and unseriousness aren't mutually exclusive, and initially, from 2007 to about 2012, the serious aspects where more prominent. It had goofiness in it still for sure, but it wasn't the only element in its design, military style artwork of the past was a huge inspiration.
This game's art style is so convincing in fact that even a history teacher have mistaken a piece of TF2 fan content as a WW2 propaganda poster.
Pokémon nerd interjection time,
As the generations have gone on, stall has become less and less concrete as a playstyle due to the offensive powercreep that keeps being brought in. That being said, there has also been defensive powercreep that introduces some stall elements, like regenerator, but for the most part offense has been outpacing defense in pokemon. Even in the older Pokémon metagames, competitive have been shifting more and more relatively offensively, though gens 1-2 are still very slow compared to every generation that follows, due to the lack of tools. Secondly, the AI has no qualms with using stall tactics, because the AI heavily favors using status over attacking directly. Many players such as Fish himself can attest to this because of the confusion spam of zubat and golbat, as fish mentioned, the minimize/double team spam on Pokémon like chansey and swellow, and Pokémon that spam acid armor or amnesia like muk and slowbro. The games AI has no issues with making battles indefinitely longer for no reason because they favor status moves if they can’t OHKO you.
Aside my issues with those 2 points, i do wholely agree that crits are largely frustrating and unhealthy for pokemon as is. i have slightly different opinions on how to balance it, but i do think Fish is mostly right on the money here.
17:31 this would have... very weird overlap with laser focus, but to be fair there are moves with identical effects.
tf2 players when their wacky casual fps game has an unpredictable mechanic
you dont need unfair mechanics for the game to be unpredictable, the mere fact of playing against other people in a real time 3d game does that more than anything else
Another game that does crits well is Payday 2, as just like Hades, enemies can't crit and it is entirely optional. If you want to use crits you have to commit it with a different build, as you have to use either the two-piece suit in a dodge-based or anarchist perk deck, or the lightweight ballistic vest with the skill inner pockets aced for certain health-based perk decks. This is because you need to manage your concealment values so that you can get to either 23 or 4 based off of whether you choose to run the skill low blow (one of two skills giving you crits) either aced or basic for a 30% chance to crit. To put simply, to crit, you must rely on random chance, gating damage with armor, or constant healing, and combing crits with headshots is incredibly quick when it comes to killing hordes.
Another game where I think random crits are implemented well is in the Xenoblade games, mainly 2 and 3 but they're pretty well implemented in 1 as well. In these games, enemies have high health pools and your crits only do 25% more damage, so getting a single random crit won't change the flow of battle or be the difference between winning and losing. However, getting a critical hit contributes to something called "party gauge" which lets you do all sorts of important things like revive party members and start chain attacks, which are essentially party-wide coordinated efforts to dish out a ton of damage.
In Xenoblade 2 and 3, critical damage is what's called an "independent multiplier", in which the bonus damage done by critical hits is calculated in a separate pool from other damage increases. What this means is that critical damage allows you to greatly magnify your damage output because it essentially strengthens all your other damage increases, to the point that many of the strongest characters use crit-based builds used in conjunction with means of increasing your critical damage via accessories in Xenoblade 2 or a gem in Xenoblade 3. There are also ways that you can buff critical rate on either your crit-based party member or the entire party all at once. There's also unique mechanics like gaining more party gauge on critical hits, healing from critical damage, increasing your own damage from critical hits, etc. And even then, getting a single critical hit is unlikely to completely change the battle or make it hilariously one-sided. There are also plenty of strategies and builds that don't involve centering around critical hits that to a perfectly fine job of dishing out damage as well, so crit builds are far from your only option.
Simply put, Xenoblade 2 and 3 allow you to build around getting critical hits in such a way that getting them won't completely change the nature of the game.
You single handedly covered 3 franchises I love on a controversial topic on all of them
Nice job
Random crits in rpg's are mostly a non problem because of how in most situations it just creates a more back and forth dynamic gameplay in a long draw out battle, mostly never being a instant loss because of how many options and choices you have just being a extra to spice up gameplay making it never the same player experience. The reasons random crits are bad in tf2 is, because you aren't playing alone where you don't feel bad when you crit the enemy and it instantly shuts down an encounter between the players creating the feeling unfairly or unearned.
RPGs where crits are a major deciding factor which are Pokemon smt and fire emblem.
Have them as gameplay spice, challenge or as a probability you have to account for making strategy more diverse.
Random crits are actively one of the best mechanics in tf2
I feel like random Mini-Crits would feel much more fair, and I don't see why they didn't go for that. Also, with Pokemon you could have crits start as a 1.2 multiplier and then add an additional .2 for every level of defense or evasion the opposing Pokemon has.
That would punish stall more than necessary
If random crits were replaced with random mini-crits, would that fix it? No more instakills from a roll of the dice, one player just gets blessed with marginally higher damage?
Crits never bothered me.
To me it's always like the guy who manages a bullseye through sheer luck, or the guy with the pistol who panic fires and manages a headshot. It's a thing that can happen, it doesn't bother me.
good for you, then since you care, your opinion can be discarded, another point against random buullshit
I feel the need to point out that in Pokémon stall tactics inherently get less Crits and make less out of them because they r attacking less with less offensively strong Pokémon.
I like this type of video talking about game mechanics as a whole in relation to TF2. Love seeing how far you've branched out from BWA and am excited for more unique content!
Picture this: you had a bad night, a bad commute, a bad work shift, a bad lunch break, bad return trip, a bad gaming chair, a bad gaming rig, and worst of all: are in a bad mood. So you boot up TF2, and three jerks get in front of you and they're all silent-aiming cheaters. So you click once and a shiny rocket blows them all up after they click in your general direction to kill you.
That's the "rare high moment." The virtual jackpot. The middle finger to your bad day. That's when random crits are good: when they can be all these things at once.
I was playing showdown ranked once and had 3 pokemon while the opponent only had one left. The win was surely mine. They then proceeded to get 3 crits in a row and sweep my team. I don't play showdown anymore
Was it a hisuian decidueye or an intelleon because it might have been me with scope lens 50% crit chances
The Pokemon franchise is so broken in so many ways and still apparently one of the most profitable on earth baffles me
@@Breakaway-ic5gj Nostalgia sells, especially to Nintendo fans what explains the sales numbers, and how Pokemon fans will always say the games they grew up with are the best regardless of quality...
@@V-JesIt's not just nostalgia. Kids to this day still like Pokemon....
Say what you will about the games (and I say their quality has dropped HARD.) But, they still know how to appeal to long time, and new fans in the design area.
Hell, I still like buying cards, and getting the occasional game.
(Legends Arceus is actually decent. Despite the flaws. Sc/Vi on the other hand are buggy messes that would make Bethesda blush.)
@@DataDrain02 Scarlet/Violet's bugginess are overall exaggerated that 85% of the time it's just harmless graphical glitches than actually harmful glitches like in a Bethesda game or modern Triple A game in general, while saying there has been a quality drop even tho the quality has never been consistently high in the series just proofs my point...
They are good when I get to slam the Black Box Conch Soldier with a Random Crit
I feel like your pokemon argument misses the entire point of random critical hits in those games, as well as other JRPGs. Crits exist as a way to provide surprise danger and comebacks in situations that it would be impossible to have without it. They exist to stop the endless calculation and provide surprise circumstances to work through. Bad beats happen yeah, losing your favorite in a nuzlocke is rough but it provides a story and struggles, and the moment when you are a hit away from death and are saved by getting a crit is something that you remember and can tell stories about. There is a reason they still exist in fire emblem, even when for the longest time they were exclusively permadeath, they lead to good stories, both good and bad. I believe that you are correct that they're shit in TF2, but that's entirely different than their use in turn based games
this argument is nothingness, you can make games unpredictable without arbitrary randomness
But they don't trll good stories. Even in dnd they're kinda shit.
@@ShakerSilver yeah like, 3d real time pvp action games already do, its effectively random whether there will be a soldier around the corner, but thats something you CAN prepare for, you cant prepare for if he will insta kill you with 300 damage
You should add a server plugin that makes weapons glow when they are slated for a crit next shot on your rebalance server
I think he should try that out. I’m quite curious if that would work because it might mean someone might hold off on shooting the enemy because they want to save that critical.
Shounic already did that
like @Loibu said this plugin was already tested and it sucked. Players farmed crits at spawn and instead of fighting they were waisting their time at spawn and not defending/doing their objective.
@@Someone_s_nick2 At the beginning it was like that, it evolved to be just the melee during rollouts
As a black box conch user my ability to summon random crits (by staying alive long enough to manipulate my odds with damage) is a guilty pleasure.
Crit chance only takes the last 20 seconds of damage into account. Conch Box doesn't really change it that much.
YOURE A DEVIL! A BLOODY DEVIL!
As someone who actually plays competitive Pokémon it shocks me hearing the take "crits are designed to break stall". And claiming "stall" is a prevalent part of competitive Pokémon at large. Crits in a turn based strategy are inherently random and inconsistent. Part of the skill of Pokémon (most of) is playing the odds and not overly fixating in the result of 1 game. In an offensive slug feast crits are more decisive given how neither team is likely to have a second check to a threat. Where as stall (in the gens/formats where it is viable) is typically was less phased by crits because bulky teams don’t tend to crumple nearly as fast because of a single pokemon getting stung a little harder. Crits in Pokémon aren’t balanced around competitive, they are balanced around single player and giving you "anime moments" as it’s commonly called, moments when a sure win because a close battled or where a sure fire loss is brought back. Competitive Pokémon is one of the few things I know about when it comes to competitive video games and their balance. Long story short I’m ok with crits in competitive for the same reasons I am in tf2, it’s part of the game. If I didn’t enjoy the game I wouldn’t be playing it competitively. Crits aren’t nearly as egregious as things like sleep rng or ice beam freezes, hence why those things have clauses and no one has ever seriously recommended banning crits. It’s so weird to be tf2(a game with no big prise money games or huge tournament scene where your status as a player is a part of your status in the community) crits and being hyper optimal and becoming super salty over unbalanced weapons and mechanics is so normal. And in contrast competitive Pokémon (where winning/placing in tournaments is a huge deal) the community seems to like be more excepting that a game doesn’t need to be deterministic to be fun. Its just weird to me the cartoony fps I played since I was a kid with 0 stakes seems to have a much less room for fun than many actually competitive games where your results actually matter~
TF2 random crit is fun, I dont care how many people complain about TF2 random crit. It still fun for me.
It makes the predictable TF2 gameplay far more chaotic and its still fun to play after all these years.
It makes me wonder, after 15 years of TF2's existence, why are people starting to complain about it lately?
I’m pretty sure people have been complaining about random crits since TF2 came out
People have been complaining for at least a decade
How ive always looked at crits is how often the action that triggers them occurs. In mobas like dota, the action that triggers them happens a LOT, and thus, they are much easier to balance as what is effectively just a boost to the overall damage you deal.
I played on a no random crits server once, and honestly, it was painful. It kinda instantly removed melee weapons for me, and just made the game little too much stressful. I couldn't stop thinking about how there's no way I'm gonna get that crit when I would love to have a chance to.
Bullet crits are kinda the one when you feel alive. You can still die against that army of four people, but you can also delete them one by one, getting a lot of emotions out of that.
TF2 just doesn't feel the same without them
ZOMG is almost as if melee weapons aren't supposed to be dumb get out of jail cars that will crit all the time xdddd
have you tried using your primay
"WAAA WAAAA I COULDNT INSTA KILL PEOPLE BY WALKING AT THEM WITH MY SHOVEL WAAA" babycry.png
demoknight doesnt have random crits, and he is perfectly valid to play even when he is hard countered by sentries, pyro, and force a nature scouts, and almost entirely countered by heavy
So the time when random crits is the best is when it isnt truly random, since you have to opt into them.
Im a big fan of crits in TF2. Its nice to see a video that doant immediately trash them for once.
I think that only melee should have random crits because they are sometimes funny, but you need to use melee in a bullet game for a chance at this
I think the comments about player choice ring in even stronger when compared to Pokemon, given how much player choice those games are also taking away for any way to experience the games the developers don't happen to like...
It's an interesting perspective, and I like this direction for crits, but I would argue that part of the point of random crits in *any* game is to be unpredictable, and crits being simply "you get them or you don't" weakens their impact. You can't have highs without lows. A game can very easily get stale and solved without a hint of spice, and while crits may not be the *only* way to do it (nor the best), I don't think they often factor into game design as much as you say. (Maybe they should! But it depends on who you're talking to.) Even in TF2, a game as polished as it is in every other instance, I think it purely serves to *be* unpredictable. I think it's bad for learning the game and being able to gauge how well you're doing, and I think people being able to queue into games where they are just off would be nice (it shouldn't be *exclusively* Uncletopia, is my point...), but their unpredictability can be amusing, at least to me. That being said, their ability to snowball (which as far as I know, wasn't there on launch - it was to combat crit hacking) is a genuine and absolutely massive problem with their implementation.
Likewise, Pokemon's game design is one I think you're giving too much credit to - because Pokemon's crits are there to make sure anything (no matter how tanky) can have a flaw somewhere at any time. Defensive builds are one of many potential strategies that fall under this category, I don't think Game Freak was immediately thinking "this is a way to break stall!". That being said, evasion sidestepping this is a major flaw in this plan, which you rightfully pointed out (evasion is so much worse than crits...). Not to mention, Gen 5 had a lot of experiments I wish they did more with, and Frost Breath is only one of them :c
This is all personal critique, I don't think either perspective is 100% right or 100% wrong. I do think that unpredictability is an important way to make sure games have staying power, but crits are one of many ways to do that, and there's also likely to be better ways to do that that we haven't seen much of yet. It makes it all the more interesting that Hades gives you the option of a dedicated crit build in a game as already unpredictable in moment to moment gameplay as a roguelite.
This better be good. I was in the middle of watching trail cam footage.
personally i feel in tf2 one of the best ways to heavily lighten the burden of random crits is to relegate them to melees only and then if that needs further improvement, rework the system so you have to build up a crit swing before you can use it and visibility display it to yourself AND the enemy before use, crit effects an' all (kinda like that idea shounic did)
Well the problem with the Shounic model is that it allows you to farm a random crit on medic and use it to essentially insta kill a spy which is annoying.
Although melee (and mvm because the robots aren't gonna call bull) only makes sense.
@@appelofdoom8211 im not sure how it allows you to farm crits on medic but if that ever happens then rework it so teammates don't effect the build meter or something like "only damage builds the meter and 80% of melee damage turns into charge and 3% of ranged damage turns onto charge" or something around that area
As a medic I hate this idea
I need some chance when I inevitably get abandoned by my team and a soldier pops out of nowhere. Even if it is luck
@@nigeladams8321 ok but if you just used more situational awareness with sound cues, visual effects, and the killfeed you wouldnt need random crits to save you from an inevitable death due to your poor awareness
@@nigeladams8321 oh, you managed to catch a medic on his vulnerable, ya know, his weakness? fuck you, he kills you anyways for no reason
In Gen 6 and beyond, the way crit stacking works was actually changed. It is now possible to gain a 100% critical hit rate when getting a “+3” crit chance. Most commonly, Sniper Kingdra uses this in conjunction with a Scope Lens and Focus Energy to guarantee Draco Meteor crits, which also bypass offensive nerfs.
I am also a massive fan of how Fire Emblem handles crits. Critical hits in Fire Emblem are most commonly calculated through a combination of a unit’s Skill stat, and innate weapon crit bonuses. For example, a Killing Edge will usually give you a bonus 30% crit chance. In Fire Emblem, crits will usually triple your damage, but in some games like Genealogy of the Holy War and Thracia 776, it instead doubles your “Attack”, the combination of your Strength/Magic and the weapon’s might. This means that crits in those games deal much more damage to highly defensive enemies like Armor Knights.
Since in most Fire Emblem games, your units are much stronger than the enemies, as they have a numbers advantage, you will almost surely have a higher crit chance than them. However, this also depends on a unit’s class. For example, the Hero class can utilize both swords and axes, making them a versatile unit for approaching a variety of enemy types, but a unit like a Berserker may only use axes, but in exchange not only can they have a higher “weapon rank”, accessing the most powerful axes in the game, they will have a passive crit boost for ALL of their attacks. The most extreme example is Binding Blade, where units of these types gain an innate +30% crit to all attacks, essentially making all of their weapons Killer weapons, and making Killer weapons twice as effective. There are several tactics in Fire Emblem that allow you to get 100% crits. You also can reduce the amount of crits a unit takes by boosting their Luck stat, which helps defensive units of your own remain consistent at tanking.
While being hit by a crit and losing a unit may suck, it leads to a lot of the flavor in Ironman playthroughs, and gives the game a very distinct identity as far as tactical RPGs go, alongside the permadeath mechanic. I love the approach the franchise has taken to critical hits, and how the potency of them shifts from game to game as they alter other mechanics to give each entry its own unique identity.
With hades, the artemis rng feels feel more 15% then 1% especially with the fist and gun.
This was a really well made video! I appreciate you spreading out and covering other games as a reference back to TF2.
I think the purpose of random crits in TF2 is to keep the players playing longer.
Hear me out, while the implementation of random crits in this game are arguably the worst in gaming history, I think that only applies during the short-term.
Yes, it feels unfair in the moment, but that unpredictability helps create unique experiences for the player throughout their time playing which makes them subconsciously want to keep playing.
Sure, you won't remember every instance you got destroyed or destroyed someone else by a random crit, but I think that's maybe the point.
The concept as a whole is still talked about, but when I think back in my time of playing TF2, unless I have it recorded, there's not one instance that sticks out in my memory it all kind of just melds together into the concept of imbalance and unfairness that's usually associated with random crits.
TF2 is the subtlest Lovecraftian Horror.
It’s what TF2 stand out from the thousand FPSers since the beginning. It’s part of the random, hilarious nature!
Like they said, they're supposed to be high rare moments, I do agree. It's a mechanic thought for a more casual setting, say in example Valve's casual servers. It is not supposed to be fair, it is just a kind of evil laugh. Like a dark humor sort of thing.
Random crits are funny on either end. For me funny is good so yeah, random crits are good. Dilemma solved lol. In casual you don't even get to pick who you're planning against or most of your teammates, it's all a beautiful mess, you make due what what you have and laugh at the absurd circumstances. That's TF2 for me.
9:08
ok im the 1100s elo player on showdown but i feel like that really isnt the case, at least not in gen 9
It’s my fault I run scope lens mons with increased crit chance moves
I just think it's funny that people are still complaining about it even to today. During my whole 3 years of playing this game they never bothered me once. I actually enjoy them. In the grand scheme they're just REALLY not a big deal. In the long term the better player will always thrive.
Artemis is best girl. No truer words have ever been spoken
That aspect of Poseidon + Artemist just makes random crits into just crit on every attack you do
Who
@@fujiwaranonekobiodrando1257 I think they meant Artemis
@@LoraLoibu lol, right
to edit I might
There is a reason for them, and it makes sense to me. Random crits puts fear into people. It gives the game this sense that you are never safe. Imagine if you are a pro player and random crits are gone, how are people going to get you. You are basically unkillable. It is random crits that prevent you from underestimate your opponents. In comp, if you play spy and you miss you are history. In casual you have a chance to survive with the miracle crit.
I definitely can't comment on them in TF2, but it is definitely a concept I've never heard complained about in any other setting... Ever really. Now, mind you, I don't play competitively in anything because it's just not how I play, but I've always enjoyed the concept of crits in games. I know a lot of people really enjoy the strategic reliability of games... But I find games that can be perfectly 'solved' boring as all heck - a little unreliability goes a long way, but that's just my two bits. They are always a thing that is satisfying to get, or something that you have to keep in mind to plan around with your resource management.
As a bit of a PS, another form of crit I think you would be interesting that I've seen a handful of games do. Instead of a crit being a damage multiplier, it is simply a guaranteed max roll. I.E. if you have a damage range of 2-7, instead of a crit doing 14 damage, it just guarantees you will do 7 damage, bypassing the roll entirely. So you aren't getting 'extra' damage per-se, you just guarantee you've done the most you can. For those who hate crits, maybe that's an implementation they can enjoy.
Hey I just wanted to say as someone who's played a lot of pkmn completive, I think you gave a fair and reasonable angle for p much everything. I just wanted to say that weather or not the meta is stall heavy changes generation to generation, with the big offenders being gens 3 and 8. And that's also where it's hard because me getting a crit vs stall in gen 3 is more "yeah I'm throwing out moves and your just healing/stalling so I'm using this randomness to my favor" vs let's say gen 6 where the entire game can be over is a sweepers crits once on a switch you should have otherwise done. So even in competitive world the concept of crits swings wildly
There are only two times I appreciate random crits in TF2: dealing with the power combo that's stomping your entire team, and killing the b-hopping squirmers who SOMEHOW manage to wriggle their way out of death over and over again. Sending these people back to spawn by any means necessary, even if it's only for a few seconds, is one of my guilty pleasures.
I'll admittedly confess that I think Ubersaw crits on Spies are fucking hilarious, even if also largely undeserved.
@@ArbitraryOutcomeyou don't no ubersaw has a hidden stat of always critting when you get hit but never critting when you hit someone.
except given the nature of crits, these people will get them far more than you will in countering them
@@ShakerSilver yeah, but it's more satysfying for you than it is for them
@@bruschetta7711 if you want that dopamine rush, take up gambling instead
another crit mechanic i like is in risk of rain 2, the lens maker's glasses give you a 10% crit chance, stack them ten times and boom full crits
What if there was a guaranteed crit system? If you can get 5 or so non critical kills in a row without dying, then your next attack with a weapon that can deal random crits is guaranteed to crit.
(insert Frontier Justice Syndrome here)
No
There good when I refect them
Someone made a experiment and a video about said experiment where you can actually see when your next would be a crit by making the weapon glow teamcolored like it was crit-boosted, it lets you know when you are able to do massive damage to a player and lets said player know that you will end him with a crit.
Yeah, and at the end he agreed it would be a stupid idea.
@@numbersstationsarchive194 yeah, you can still not see whether a soldier is comming around the corner, and giving him crits on top of that surprise is pointless
crits should be balanced around how much you believe in yourself
When I get a random crit: Hey that’s nice.
When I get killed by one: ARE YOU F*CKING KIDDING I HATE THIS GAME!11!!!!11!
Here is the problem with your entire discussion on TF2 random crits... RNG was BUILT INTO THE GAME FROM THE START. Random bullet spread, random DAMAGE spread, random crits. These were the literal identity of the game, until people cried about it enough for valve to change it.
Also, the reason random crits are in the game is to prevent stalemates where people are unloading for fucking ever at each other but no one gets a kill because healing can be absurd when stacked. OH AND LOOK, you even think that breaking through defensive stalls is a GOOD reason to have crits in a game.
This comment perfectly sums it up.
@@numbersstationsarchive194 A lot of times, Fish has some good takes. But damn, his bad takes are BAAD.
I once saw this video about TF2 crits in which if your gonna get a random crit on your next attack, your weapon will glow in team colors, indicating you have a crit ready.
The results were interesting. The video and people said that while does makes random crits more predictable and bullshit. However people still said get rid of them as it makes ambushes not worth it and spy even weaker as a medic can hide his melee crit and the likes.
@@starmaker75 I honestly think it still has potential to balance random crits rather than get rid of them completely
less bad but still just as pointless and frustrating when i cant do anything against the soldier with crits running around the corner
@@Helperbot-2000 What-?
This just in, Fish admits that items in Smash Bros are a healthy gameplay mechanic.
>completely optional for the player
>you know the abilities provided so none of it is a surprise
>have the express purpose of giving characters gameplay options they otherwise don't have
>when decided to be used, only violates the rights of people that don't have any (Smash players)
I think they are quite fun,although in my 500 hours on ultimate I rarely used them outside of online
7:58 that could be interesting, an upgrade for MVM that affects crit chance (either on the weapon or the class slot) going from 20% higher crit chance to prob 30% (though this would act as a nerf to crit canteens, maybe just remove crit canteens and make it so the crit upgrade stacks up to 100% but is stupidly expensive) then completely remove random crits for all weapons in MVM and basegame
but why? why would you do that, damage upgrades already exist and everything else just helps you do more damage, and crit canteens increase the skill ceiling
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413fair ‘nuff I guess.
It’s good when you’re bad at the game. Gives the player a little ego boost so they keep playing. Essential it’s a handicap and I kinda like it being there. Sure it sucks when it seems like EVERYONE BUT ME is getting them, but when I get them…that’s a different story.
I'd hardly call tf2 a good example of bad implementation of crits, it's more inline with half assed. There are PLENTY of games which implement them WAY worse than what we got with tf2. "..Without any warning or reason." Ya that's a hard disagree. Not only does tf2 EXPLICITLY make different crit sound effects for when one happens, but they have specific team coloured particle effects which draw one's attention to it so they are aware it exists as part of it's design. The only time you won't know one is going to happen is if you are either being attacked with a melee weapon or so out of position that you are point blank with an enemy when one happens.
In TF2, I never really minded dying to Random Crits, sure I'll get frustrated if it repetitively happens but compared to other games re-spawn times are relativity short which is nice.
To be honest only times where I was frustrated by them was when it was an instant existance removal from a Soldier or a Demo
It honestly sounds like TF2 has simply ruined the concept of random crits for u to the point that seeing random crits in other games could make you mald. They really aren't that bad outside of the single competitive multiplayer game you play.