Penn station, because at least that means I get to take a train.... Eventually I'll do a video on the port authority too, that's another black hole of problems to discuss.
@@alanthefisher Amen. Only good thing at the Bus Terminal is the deal Jersey Transit does where you can buy the ticket to Six Flags and a round trip bus ticket for like $80
I'd choose Port Authority. It's a dump too but not as big as Penn Station. Penn station is dark, depressing and crowded. Once you know your way around be the bus terminal you can get out fast, plus Port Authority is closer to where I'm usually going. Grand Central Terminal is nice. I don't mind going there at all.
4:26 I was told that the reason train platforms are not announced until the train is pretty much already there is not because the station doesn't know (railroad dispatching is pretty organised and plans train movements well before they actually happen), but rather because the station doesn't want people _waiting_ out on platforms and blocking people who are trying to get to a train that is _already there_
Union Station in DC is very nice and probably makes money from the very many business that have locations in the building and they have done that without destroying the architectural greatness of the building itself. Union station in Chicago has not faired well and the station in Detroit is in shambles.
@@henryostman5740 The main purpose of a train station is to serve train travelers. I agree Union Station DC has nice restaurants, shops, architecture, art, but train service was awful when I was there. I know, I am spoiled as a European, but Union Station DC was truly awful, we treat cattle better. And the trip to NY Penn was a bumpy ride... out of the 1950's, you cannot compare it to the ICE to Berlin, the Thalys to Paris or the Eurostar to London.
@@dutchman7623 The station is clean, friendly, and has a lot of services. Train ops are somebody else's job. I rode a Maryland commuter train out of here for 15+ years, I'm gland it was Union Sta and not the current Penn Sta. Train operations were spotty but too often lousy, the train crews worked hard but nobody in the head house gave a damn about us riders, problem was they were bus people and didn't understand trains, since they were a government agency they could do things even the mean old railroads couldn't get away with.
@Miles Pulford Yes, the metro is good in DC! No complaints whatsoever! But I traveled from DC to NY with Amtrak. Union Station is clean, pretty, nice with a lot of shops and restaurants. I searched where I had to be for the train to NY, which was not very clearly indicated. Showed my ticket and was directed into a small fenced area with many people packed up and too few seats. After feeling very uncomfortable we, me and family, asked if we could wait in the more spacious hallway, to get some fresher air. We were permitted if we stayed close because the train was expected soon. When the doors opened and we could go to the train, there was no platform! Only a gravel path next to the train. We had to climb into the train! Imagine elderly people climbing into a train like hobo's... We had suitcases and backpacks, one who got up had to grab the others cases and pull them in. This was NOT a very clean experience, not for our hands and clothing! The train was dirty and smelly, and in direct need for refurbishment! The ride to NY was bumpy, looking out through the dirty windows was risky because with every bump your head was smashed into the glass. Nothing came close to any European standard. And I traveled in Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Belgium, Luxembourg, Swiss, and of course the Netherlands, by train, and everywhere it was better.
This is the problem with worshiping progress. The old and good gets buldozed and the new things are some good some bad as all new things are, so to achieve perfection utmost priority is to be placed on preserving the good only buldozing the bad in atemt to make something new and good so that in time more and more things are good as they are preserved while the bad get remade and remade till they are good.
Malta has 2 trains a day. The empire builder is split into two pieces in Washington state. So google includes both sections to not confuse people even though they did anyways 😂.
I expected Malta to be on either extreme no trains or a bunvh of trains, weird they built a train station on an island nation if they don't even use it fully.
The Pennsylvania Railroad wasn't dreaming of cars, it was living a nightmare created by others. State and federal policies built highways at minimal user cost and FHA/GI mortgages for white Christians underwrote suburban sprawl beyond reach of commuter rail. The profits from freight subsided the losses (even then) from passenger service, which lost 75% of its riders. Factories moved to suburbs with no rail access, and a huge decline in demand for minerals shipped by the Pennsy robbed it of freight revenue. With no help from government, they had no choice but to lease their most valuable asset.
@@dk50b By the 1960s the railroads no longer had enormous freight profits, high value freight had been siphoned off by the trucking industry using the new interstates and high taxes on the railroads real estate portfolio were eating into what little net revenue they had. The NY Central had closed it's Manhattan terminal facilities (known as the High Line and now a linear park). Ridership losses on the lines into NYC were not significant since there really wasn't an alternative in terms of time and cost. For most folks, driving into Manhattan isn't realistic since there isn't any place to park when you get there, a daily commuter can't afford the rates Manhattan garages charge (maybe the CEOs can) and the unreliability caused by the endless traffic jams. Housing moved out to suburban locations because land was available at reasonable prices and projects could be completed relatively quickly. Building anything in NYC takes forever and is very costly. The move out to suburban locations was one of long standing and had been going on since steam powered ferries entered service in the city, of course at one time the suburban locations were still inside the city. I might note that much of the wartime industry they had grown up on Long Island and even along the Brooklyn and Queens waterfront has moved out due to high expenses of doing business in the area and also due to the logistics problems of getting materials and goods into and out of the area. Ships used to dock in Brooklyn but you can't bring a container ship into that area and offload and load several thousand containers in a 24 hour period, that would totally jam up the highway network. There is no real effective mainline rail connection to Brooklyn or Queens or the rest of Long Island, what traffic there is comes by car float (barge) from the NJ railhead. Urban planners always talk about highways and traffic as a car problem with no recognition of having to move 'stuff', how do they think that 50 story office tower gets its toilet paper, by the mailman? You need to look at the logistics the city operates in simply moving garbage out of the the boroughs, and yes the city has 'all bus' traffic jams.
@@henryostman5740 A few observations. First, construction of the Lincoln Tunnel and it's connecting highways, coupled with explosive growth in areas too distant from its service, resulted in a 75% drop in postwar passengers at Penn Station. The Pennsylvania was losing $50 million/year on that service and $25/million on freight when it signed its first, unsuccessful air rights sale in 1954. It derived more of income from passengers than any other US railroad, amplifying the effect of this decline. They received no subsidy or tax break for Federally mandated passenger routes, with expenses of $1.2 billion in 1958. That same year, the Feds spent almost $11 billion on highway and airport construction. books.google.com/books?id=ZIK3zRHSx3cC&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&lpg=PP1&dq=the%20late%20great%20pennsylvania%20station&pg=PT468#v=onepage&q&f=false This decades long expenditure, with FHA/VA mortgages underwriting developments that otherwise wouldn't have happened, were the driving (pun intended) force behind the unprecedented expansion of suburbs. The percent of Americans living in suburbs went from 25% to 50% from 1950-2000, with nearly all population growth occurring there. It wasn't the difficulties of residential development in New York City, it was that Federal spending excluded the private market in all older cities. As for freight crossing the Hudson, the primary reason for establishing The Port of New York Authority 100 years ago was the construction of a rail freight tunnel and needed facilities from New Jersey to The City. When the railroads couldn't agree on funding and participation, Port moved on to auto crossings. As you say, the container ports on Newark Bay were the nail in the coffin. The result is that New York is the most truck dependent city in the US.
I remember going to Penn Station and Grand Central as a kid. Penn Station was a dump. The Pennsy had let it go to pot long before they sold it and let it be demolished. Nostalgia for lost building ignores how bad the experience of going through Penn Station really was. The New York Central did much better at keeping up Grand Central (and their passenger trains) than the Pennsy. If any business deserved to die, it was the Pennsylvania Railroad. If Biden wants to do more than talk about "infrastructure" (which is unlikely), he can take a page from Ike's book. Ike built in the Interstate Highway System. The government should scrap the 19th century rail system and build a new, state of the art, high speed rail system. The railroads would operate over public rails just like trucks and buses operate over public highways and airlines operate over public airports and public ATC. Trivia: The original Madison Square Garden was also built out of an old train station.
The two track bottleneck sounds a lot like the situation we had in Stockholm up to a few years ago. Basically every passenger train in Sweden passes through Stockholm and the station only had two tracks south of it that had to take all regional long distance and commuter trains. They could do 28 trains an hour per track and that was really pushing it so they used 24 trains to have a margin and 16 of those where local commuter trains and only 8 trains could be regional or long distance which caused a huge bottleneck in the entire Swedish rail system. A few years ago the commuter trains where moved to an underground station with separate tracks which solved the situation. However what we see now are bottlenecks further out in the system which makes it hard to use the new capacity to it's full potential.
Well, that margin dried out on many days faster than Lake Aral ;) Never seen a proper train traffic jam before and after Stockholm. This project was so dearly needed for Pendeltåget. I can only imagine how bed it must be around Penn Station where tracks are not only extremely limited but the tunnels themeselves are barely fit for purpose anymore and the risk of major closures is hanging over everyone.
Ah yes, Penn Station.... it's really sad they tore down the old one - NYC has such a sad history with amazing buildings torn down to create architecturally cold structures. And when events are happening at Madison Square Garden it's just a pile of humans shuffling in and around Penn. Now that Moynihan is done it's still fairly empty because you need a ticket to go to certain places in there. Also looks nicer and reminds a bit of old Penn.
The improvements to Penn Station are definitely rolling in now. Ive been taking the train pretty frequently the past several months and even over the course of 2021 I’ve continued to notice more and more improvements. Moynihan obviously is a much nicer train hall, but isn’t really accommodating much of the travel yet. But it looks promising. They’ve also improved the various escalators and other entrances and exits to the tracks, which makes the flow of passengers a bit better. Still won’t tell us which track until the train arrives though…
"NJ trains cannot use LI tracks and Vice Versa" this is entirely false and has been for a long time (at least 2011). 3rd Rail is installed on tracks 5-21 (the tracks that can be accessed from Queens) and AC is installed on all tracks, however, 19-21 track is on its own breaker group which is turned off unless needed.
Great explanation. I only go to Penn Station to get on my trains to/from NJ and that's it. It's not a pleasant place to be. Btw, the Moyniham Train Hall you mentioned will not fully resolve the current issues at Penn Station as it will only handle 20% of the current traffic of 650,000. The only solution that would resolve the current situation is for MSG to be demolished and rebuild the old one. There is a movement to rebuild the old station & relocate MSG and it will cost $3.5 billion dollars. Sadly, greedy cooperate assholes are the reason why nothing is getting done cause in America, it's always money > people.
corporate assholes had nothing to do with it, incompetent city and state governments can take all of the blame and then some, PRR needed the money to keep operating. NJ, NY, and NYC are far greedier and bigger assholes than any corporate, oh well, there is GM.
@@henryostman5740 This is a total falsehood. From Wikipedia: "In February 1959, [American car manufacturer] Graham-Paige purchased a 40% interest in the Madison Square Garden for $4 million and later gained control. In November 1960, Graham-Paige president Irving Mitchell Felt purchased from the Pennsylvania Railroad the rights to build at Penn Station. To build the new facility, the above-ground portions of the original Pennsylvania Station were torn down." NJ, NYC, and NYS had nothing to do with it. In fact, no gov't entity took any control of NYC area transit until the Great Society in the mid 60s gave local and state gov'ts the funds to buy out ailing rail companies. Frankly, if PRR had held out only 5-10 more years, they would've been able to sell to the MCTA, the MTA, or the Port Authority which would've kept the train hall, just like they did with Grand Central.
1:52 lol this is the general American way of thinking wait until a issue becomes a problem then do the bare minimum then return to ignoring the problem
Of major train stations I've visited, I've been to Penn Station, 30th Street Station, Grand Central Terminal, Buffalo Central Terminal, Toronto Union Station and Washington Union Station. Penn is the worst I've been to. BCT hasn't hosted trains since the 70's and was absolutely trashed in the 90's by a developer who's name we will not mention and I'd rather go there than Penn Station.
To be fair, Phoenix is too remote to make good use of intercity rail. Maybe once that high speed line from LA to LV opens, it'll be of some use but right now, using rail to go to or from PHX just doesn't make sense for most ppl.
That project, while needed, is utterly ridiculous in execution and everything that is wrong with the City, the MTA and existence. What a fucking 20 year clown shoe they got going.
@@phuturephunk Well they are using existing infrastructure, cutting down on costs and speeding it up. I honestly don't see what's wrong with it. Penn Station is as crowded as is, and we need to open that up somehow for breathing room to improve the bottleneck that is the North and East River tunnels and other parts of the area.
Te first time I visited NY, also the first time I ever travelled completely by myself, and the first time to do so abroad (I'm from Spain) I entered the city through Penn Station, and it was depressing
In a similar manner as the Lake Shore Limited splits in Albany to New York City and Boston. The diner goes to one city while the lounge goes to the other city... The Empire Builder splits in Spokane with the diner going to Seattle while the lounge goes to Portland...
As a New Jersey resident, I don’t blame Christie for cancelling the ARC tunnel project as it was a flawed design. After the Penn Station Connector tunnel portion was shelved because of major construction and environmental challenges, the resulting design had the tunnels dead-end in a new station deep under 34th street with only pedestrian access to Penn Station. As such, they could be used only by NJ Transit and not Amtrak. The problem with the deterioration of the North Hudson tunnels used by Amtrak would still have to be addressed as would the 100 year-old Portal bridge on the approach. The Gateway Project is a far better and more comprehensive design as it calls for the new tunnels to terminate in Penn Station and replacement of the several drawbridges on the NJ side. Where Christie deserves massive blame is for using the money from ARC to shore up the NJ state transportation trust fund to put off raising gas tax and indirectly refurbish the Pulaski Skyway in Jersey City. The money should have been banked for the Gateway Project.
Wait! I think I've found a solution to Penn Station being over capacity! Just demolish a few hundred square miles of city and build a highway! Even better, you could just tear down the whole North East Corridor and build a 30 lane highway in it's place. You could name it "Induced Demand Memorial Highway". Your railway can't have a capacity problem if there is no railway.
Penn was not the first rail passenger connection between NY and NJ. That was the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad, or the McAdoo Tunnels, today called PATH. H&M predated Penn Station by about 10 years.
I remember getting off at Penn Station via NJ Transit or LIRR (I usually grabbed the ACE or 123 out with the fam), I remember asking my mom "Hey I wanna see what the outside of Penn Station looks like." And she said it's "It's really just stairs." Then on the way back from Macy's we cross over towards Madison Square and I see literally just see a big stairway reading "Pennsylvania Station" and I'm like "THAT'S IT???" And she like "Toldja!" 😂
In the same genre, in Paris France, there is the "chatelet-les halles" station (750,000 users / days during the week ~ 500,000 on weekends) This station interconnects 3 of the 5 regional lines (RER) and 5 of the 16 lines of the Paris metro as well as 16 bus lines. in addition 2 of the RER lines (the longest and the one serving the 2 Paris airports) use the same tunnel to cross Paris
While many points you bring up are valid, (actually all of them) I must say it’s hard to get things done with all the corruption in New Jersey. NJT has managed to not only fuck itself up, but also the state. My uncle, who does consulting for train companies, (LIRR, Some stuff in Europe, stuff in Iowa) said NJT is unfixable, and he has been in this business for decades.
I used to commute through Penn Station and it is truly dreadful. Even 30 years ago, there was talk of a big renovation, but it never got beyond fancy renderings and empty promises.
the penn station rush was one thing i noticed last time i used it, my friends and i were trying to find out where to wait for our train and it took us a while to realize we had to wait until just before the train got there to know which track it would be on
I just discovered your channel and you have put to words the exact underlying concerns I have felt regarding US public transportation. What makes this funnier for myself is that I am extremely familiar with a couple of the different stations you reference and have filmed at. I look forward to seeing more videos in my subscription feed.
I've heard there's a group trying to get the original station rebuilt from the ground up and before you say anything there are quite a few replica buildings that were rebuilt replace the originals which were destroyed
As an tourists in 2015 I went from NYC to DC by train. I found very strange to we needed to wait in the central hall before we could go to the platform. Never seen that anymore before
That seems to be the standard at large stations I’ve seen in the US. For some reason, Amtrak treats getting on the train like boarding an airplane, at least in New York, Philadelphia, and DC.
As someone who commutes through Penn Station, you failed to mention how it also doubles as NYC's homeless shelter in inclement weather. Because NYC does a shit job at addressing their homeless crisis, you get hundreds, if not thousands of homeless that you have to navigate around
Concerning the numbers: it might be the European in me, but 6 trains per hour on a single track to cross the river doesn't sound that much to me? That's only 1 train every 10 minutes...
@@qlder0284 1 train every 20 minutes / 3 trains per hour per direction. ... but the point is: it's not a major city or station, but I'm in a small village in a rural county, with only commuter trains stopping and all other trains just rushing through.
@@EnjoyFirefighting Ah I see. As an Australian that lives in outer suburban Melbourne, 1 train every 10 minutes is a very good amount of trains for a suburban station as far as I'm concerned. But I forgot to consider that this is between New York and New Jersey, in which case there should probably be MORE than that.
There actually was a new station headhouse for Penn station built in a post office near the station not too long ago. But its not as good as the original one.
The better fix would have made Penn Station a through station and put your terminal stations on Long Island and New Jersey. You would still need to make it roomier but your major infrastructure investment would have been where it is less congested.
In the meantime, if there's a problem on one of the tracks from Jersey to Penn Station, all NJT needs to do is stop trains at Newark or Hoboken and have people take PATH across the river (or ferry from Hoboken). Before the original Penn Station, that's what they did.
I think that could happen if MSG gets renovated. The first ten stories could be the train hall and then a revamped MSG could be built on top. neo-MSG could have a translucent ceiling and a floating court surface to let light pass through when the arena's not in use.
I agree. It would still be crowded but at least it felt a little classy. Penn station as it is feels like a good place to get mugged, especially if you are there later at night.
I used to think of Grand Central Station as "the largest train station in the world" (or at least in the West; I know they have some dang huge stations in Tokyo), but looking it up, Penn Station gets nearly twice as many passengers. For all its splendor and notability, Grand Central Terminal only sees about 20% more passengers than Oslo central station. Actually, it appears that only four stations in all of North America get more traffic than Oslo S, which is hardly a huge transport hub considering it mainly serves the population of east and south Norway. Also, Gare du Nord in Paris really pulls its weight. It gets three times as many passengers as Penn Station on a yearly basis. And then Tokyo's Shinjuku Station apparently takes five times as many as that again. Going there in rush hour must be an experience.
I think Grand Central isn't even the station with the most passenger tracks. If you count all the different companies and smaller stations that are interconnected with Shinjuku station it has 53 tracks vs. 44 for grand central. Shinjuku gets more than 2.6 million visitors a day. Believe me witnessing the morning rush there is something else. Even the main station where I live gets nearly half a million passengers a day and the metropolitan area where I live has less people than NYC alone.
MNRR has lower ridership numbers than LIRR, that's primarily why. LIRR services Queens, Nassau and Suffolk, which have much larger populations and rider numbers than points north of the city served by the three MNRR main lines that terminate into GCT. Also, I think GCT got that moniker because it has a very large number of terminal platforms that can receive trains. It's basically a huge double stacked fan of platforms.
@@remko2 Never got lost in Shinjuku but I once spent 40 minutes walking around in Ikebukuro station trying to find a specific exit. I gave up and took the long way around. At least google maps is able to help once you are outside. The labeling and wayfinding at Shinjuku is really good but there's only so much you can do with kilometers of halls, 200+ entrances and exits and half a dozen companies operating in the station.
@@lars7935 My sister and I only tried to get from the west side to the east side, for sure going to a platform wouldn't have been a problem ... but passing under it from west to east ... well, that proved to be a challenge. Luckily there was a very friendly elderly gentleman who pointed us in the right direction, and when he concluded we probably would get lost again, walked us all the way to the exit we needed .... which was quite a long way, we felt kinda guilty for having him guide us to be honest.
I’ve used Penn Station twice for Amtrak keystone services, once before the new Moynihan train hall, which was absolute hell in that confusing maze, and once after it Moynihan was built, which was significantly more pleasant. The first time around separated waiting areas for Amtrak, LIRR, and NJT, which doesn’t make any sense to me as someone who has mostly taken trains in Europe.
Having seen and gone through some of those Amshacks: They handle the traffic they get well enough, and they aren't ridiculously crowded and confusing. Some of them, at least from the train, look like they're sometimes even a bit of a source of pride for their tiny town. e.g. Newton, KS has in some ways a better station than Penn Station.
I remember visiting my sister on the east coast in Philadelphia. We took a train into New York, and stepping out of Penn Station and seeing a giant arena on top of me was definitely a WTF moment.
New York, Penn is the United States most well connected station. Theres bus, cabs, two 3 line subways that connect north and south from penn, plus two multi branch commuter services serving the station east and west, I agree with expanding station entrance rail tunnels to either 4 or 6 tracks for better train access allowing Amtrak to have it own dedicated right of way!
Lets not forget the generation of people who destroyed Penn Station is the same generation that thought it was smart to cover hardwood floors with linoleum or wall to wall carpet.
Penn Station is underground to break your spirits to get you ready for subway stations. (JK) Jokes aside, the High Rise is excellent, but be sure to pack sunscreen if you want to walk the entire length (which you should consider doing if you're in NYC). I didn't really think about the Penn Station rush, I just thought that was normal. I also want to point out that (at least it seemed to me) that the underground platforms seem smaller and cause slower foot traffic when exiting a platform. Also, talking about electrical problems: I'm not sure if this is a limitation of third-rail power, but power in carriages can sometimes be inconsistent, especially near stations with interchanges like Penn Station and Jamaica.
Yeah, the breaks in the power have to do with gaps in the third rails because of the switches. There is at least one gap in Penn Station that is so large that Amtrak will not allow a train with a single locomotive to run off third rail, lest it get stuck and require a rescue from another locomotive/train. Overhead power does not have this problem.
I remember the crass difference between the platform area (narrow steps, no escalator, no elevator, no aircondition, hot and stinky, no space like in a 3rd world country) and the pompous and spacious main area in grand central, new york... as if there were a portal between the main area and the platforms
The low ceiling sitch is here at Union Station in Chicago. The original headhouse was demolished in the 1970s so an insurance company could use it to house cubicles containing frantic/caustic/otherwise disgruntled human to perform tedious functions. As originally built, the area leading to the tracks had high ceilings with skylights. Fortunately, the waiting room has been restored to functional beauty. From what I've seen of Moynihan in videos, the refurbished post office was a great idea well executed. Someone gets urban planning! Hand him or her a cookie. Okay, a dozen.
Hey, I just rode the train to Penn Station a few days ago! My first time riding a real train (i guess the free trolley at hilton-waikoloa doesn't really count, but i loved to ride it as a kid)
Look at a PRR system timetable, say front 1938, and you'll find dense rail traffic that the system adequately handled. It serviced the LIRR and NJ commuter trains in addition to the number of long distance intercity trains greater than today's (some had multiple sections).
For a still-not-great but not-quite-as-bad combination of sports arena and train station, Boston has North Station, which is still kinda ugly and modern but at least functional while also being part of the Boston Garden complex (home of the Celtics and Bruins).
I went through penn station a couple months ago, and I thought it was so bizarre how people were frantically trying to get onto the train once the platform was announced. I guess it's not an uncommon occurrence at that station, but I haven't experienced it any other time in my limited experience
Hi, I like your vids. You could probably reach a wider audience if you did a little backstory on (old) Penn Station first, we know what it was, but most people don't.
Here's a way to get politicians to actually listen and invest in railway infrastructure: Rail Strike Week(s) So all the railway staff go on strike for an entire week (or even a few weeks) and the politicians get to watch the transportation network crumble. I don't think this would ever be done because it would likely cause the railroad company to lose a ton of money. Though we'll never know. Maybe, someday, things get so bad that it actually happens...
I travelled to Grand Central Terminal on my visit to NY, not to catch a train, but to tour the place due to just how crazy the station is. Nobodys doing at Penn Station anymore ;-;
Bowling alleys in train stations was actually done to revitalize iconic train halls. Eventually that was abandoned in favor of turning them into the urban answer to shopping malls.
I can’t see a great deal wrong with the new parts of Penn Station. The main problems with it seem to be with the overcrowded platforms and the stairs leading down to them, and these parts are basically unchanged from the original station.
I used to commute to NYC from Philly and I hated PennStation and the bus terminal. I ended up Taking the Bolt Bus and got off on Broadway. At least there was daylight.
Honestly slightly similar to London's Euston station - nice old station and lovely (not an) arch demolished and replaced with a horrible brutalist structure with no natural light - at least in euston's case the demolishing served the purpose of increasing capacity unlike with Penn station.
Why did they ever move the long distance trains out of Grand Central? It does still have some class. Penn Station is little more than a subway station with pretensions.
Post-Amtrak (1991, actually): to connect with Northeast Corridor trains without having to do a transfer on the subway using two lines, or via taxi/bus service. Pre-Amtrak, the Pennsylvania owned and operated Penn Station, while NY Central built Grand Central. They were two separate rail operators that would often compete with each other that eventually merged into Penn Central in the late 1960s, which collapsed like a drunk Jenga game in 1970.
I would do anything to have the old station back. But hey at least we got the new train hall up and running. Doesn’t fix pen station but it does something.
Yes! Most of the projects that I wanted to upload never got past half way done. But I'm working on a series focused on how to fix different cities infrastructure starting with Philly! It should be out this month.
@@alanthefisher If you'd like to talk to a fellow urbanist and train-worshipper, who is also from Philly, try reaching out to Donoteat01 on youtube or twitter. I mean you probably already know about him seeing as you both have the same sad, nihilistic humor about US infrastructure, but if not check him out! Can't wait for more :D
Perhaps a tad off topic, but The WTC PATH station is definitely more aesthetically appealing than NY Penn. The architecture is gorgeous & it’s cheaper to take NJ transit to Newark Penn station and then the PATH into NYC anyway (though it does add about 15 minutes to the journey and puts you in a different part of the city that may or may not be closer to your destination).
I took the LIRR into penn every now and then when I lived on Long Island, and what I can say about Penn Station is that..... Well like... Uh, it's a station
How long has the station been over capacity people-wise? The station has been sufficient for many decades, even with the "new" Penn Station. Also, you neglected to mention how terrible the relatively new stairs and mezzanine that NJT opened for their commuters is. Think the idea of the rush to the train is bad? Try not bothering to put in waiting areas (or any major open areas) for the waiting passengers, and you've got passengers sitting on everything except chairs until the rush happens.
![F.HERO Ft. JSPKK x ลำไย ไหทองคำ x M-PEE - ไม่สนิทบิดหมด (Thai Riders Anthem) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kPJZ0UihBfk/mqdefault.jpg)
If you were forced to go to one, which one you would choose? Penn Station or Port Authority Bus Terminal?
Penn station, because at least that means I get to take a train....
Eventually I'll do a video on the port authority too, that's another black hole of problems to discuss.
@@alanthefisher Amen. Only good thing at the Bus Terminal is the deal Jersey Transit does where you can buy the ticket to Six Flags and a round trip bus ticket for like $80
Moynihan!
I'd choose Port Authority. It's a dump too but not as big as Penn Station. Penn station is dark, depressing and crowded. Once you know your way around be the bus terminal you can get out fast, plus Port Authority is closer to where I'm usually going. Grand Central Terminal is nice. I don't mind going there at all.
going to the bus terminal would force me to ride a bus, no thanks.
4:26 I was told that the reason train platforms are not announced until the train is pretty much already there is not because the station doesn't know (railroad dispatching is pretty organised and plans train movements well before they actually happen), but rather because the station doesn't want people _waiting_ out on platforms and blocking people who are trying to get to a train that is _already there_
Maybe because the platforms at Penn Station are so narrow
@@sammy96024 they’re removing some tracks to widen the platforms. This will hopefully help
It's kinda weird that NYC has both the best station (Grand Central) and the worst station (Penn) in the US.
Union Station in DC is very nice and probably makes money from the very many business that have locations in the building and they have done that without destroying the architectural greatness of the building itself. Union station in Chicago has not faired well and the station in Detroit is in shambles.
@@henryostman5740 The main purpose of a train station is to serve train travelers. I agree Union Station DC has nice restaurants, shops, architecture, art, but train service was awful when I was there. I know, I am spoiled as a European, but Union Station DC was truly awful, we treat cattle better.
And the trip to NY Penn was a bumpy ride... out of the 1950's, you cannot compare it to the ICE to Berlin, the Thalys to Paris or the Eurostar to London.
@@dutchman7623 The station is clean, friendly, and has a lot of services. Train ops are somebody else's job. I rode a Maryland commuter train out of here for 15+ years, I'm gland it was Union Sta and not the current Penn Sta. Train operations were spotty but too often lousy, the train crews worked hard but nobody in the head house gave a damn about us riders, problem was they were bus people and didn't understand trains, since they were a government agency they could do things even the mean old railroads couldn't get away with.
NYC has both the best and the worst everything in the USA.
@Miles Pulford
Yes, the metro is good in DC! No complaints whatsoever!
But I traveled from DC to NY with Amtrak.
Union Station is clean, pretty, nice with a lot of shops and restaurants.
I searched where I had to be for the train to NY, which was not very clearly indicated.
Showed my ticket and was directed into a small fenced area with many people packed up and too few seats.
After feeling very uncomfortable we, me and family, asked if we could wait in the more spacious hallway, to get some fresher air. We were permitted if we stayed close because the train was expected soon.
When the doors opened and we could go to the train, there was no platform! Only a gravel path next to the train.
We had to climb into the train! Imagine elderly people climbing into a train like hobo's... We had suitcases and backpacks, one who got up had to grab the others cases and pull them in.
This was NOT a very clean experience, not for our hands and clothing!
The train was dirty and smelly, and in direct need for refurbishment!
The ride to NY was bumpy, looking out through the dirty windows was risky because with every bump your head was smashed into the glass.
Nothing came close to any European standard.
And I traveled in Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Belgium, Luxembourg, Swiss, and of course the Netherlands, by train, and everywhere it was better.
Pennsylvania RR was effectively broke and was selling it’s assets and eventually sold itself.
Like the MGM studio selling off its assets in the late '60s...
@ConrailFan76 the demolition of penn station started in 1963, penn central was created in 1968
As a New Yorker who uses Amtrak I can confirm this
Please make more of these :((( I finally found a channel that discusses urban planning so interestingly/funnily/memely
I've just been super busy, but I'm actually working on a new video and it'll be out soon...
there should be a video about the Moynihan Train Hall! that would be really good
Similar to what happened with Euston station in London. Classic station killed by a hideous box, containing people who run for trains.
This is the problem with worshiping progress. The old and good gets buldozed and the new things are some good some bad as all new things are, so to achieve perfection utmost priority is to be placed on preserving the good only buldozing the bad in atemt to make something new and good so that in time more and more things are good as they are preserved while the bad get remade and remade till they are good.
despite just down the road you got kings cross thats the original station with a newer extention added onto the side and still looks nice.
Malta has 2 trains a day. The empire builder is split into two pieces in Washington state. So google includes both sections to not confuse people even though they did anyways 😂.
I expected Malta to be on either extreme no trains or a bunvh of trains, weird they built a train station on an island nation if they don't even use it fully.
fella also pluralises single point penalty @ poncey rankings
When they demolished the original station they were dreaming of cars and buses taking over, completely reducing the demand for train in the future.
The Pennsylvania Railroad wasn't dreaming of cars, it was living a nightmare created by others. State and federal policies built highways at minimal user cost and FHA/GI mortgages for white Christians underwrote suburban sprawl beyond reach of commuter rail. The profits from freight subsided the losses (even then) from passenger service, which lost 75% of its riders. Factories moved to suburbs with no rail access, and a huge decline in demand for minerals shipped by the Pennsy robbed it of freight revenue. With no help from government, they had no choice but to lease their most valuable asset.
@@dk50b By the 1960s the railroads no longer had enormous freight profits, high value freight had been siphoned off by the trucking industry using the new interstates and high taxes on the railroads real estate portfolio were eating into what little net revenue they had. The NY Central had closed it's Manhattan terminal facilities (known as the High Line and now a linear park). Ridership losses on the lines into NYC were not significant since there really wasn't an alternative in terms of time and cost. For most folks, driving into Manhattan isn't realistic since there isn't any place to park when you get there, a daily commuter can't afford the rates Manhattan garages charge (maybe the CEOs can) and the unreliability caused by the endless traffic jams. Housing moved out to suburban locations because land was available at reasonable prices and projects could be completed relatively quickly. Building anything in NYC takes forever and is very costly. The move out to suburban locations was one of long standing and had been going on since steam powered ferries entered service in the city, of course at one time the suburban locations were still inside the city. I might note that much of the wartime industry they had grown up on Long Island and even along the Brooklyn and Queens waterfront has moved out due to high expenses of doing business in the area and also due to the logistics problems of getting materials and goods into and out of the area. Ships used to dock in Brooklyn but you can't bring a container ship into that area and offload and load several thousand containers in a 24 hour period, that would totally jam up the highway network. There is no real effective mainline rail connection to Brooklyn or Queens or the rest of Long Island, what traffic there is comes by car float (barge) from the NJ railhead. Urban planners always talk about highways and traffic as a car problem with no recognition of having to move 'stuff', how do they think that 50 story office tower gets its toilet paper, by the mailman? You need to look at the logistics the city operates in simply moving garbage out of the the boroughs, and yes the city has 'all bus' traffic jams.
@@henryostman5740 A few observations. First, construction of the Lincoln Tunnel and it's connecting highways, coupled with explosive growth in areas too distant from its service, resulted in a 75% drop in postwar passengers at Penn Station. The Pennsylvania was losing $50 million/year on that service and $25/million on freight when it signed its first, unsuccessful air rights sale in 1954. It derived more of income from passengers than any other US railroad, amplifying the effect of this decline. They received no subsidy or tax break for Federally mandated passenger routes, with expenses of $1.2 billion in 1958. That same year, the Feds spent almost $11 billion on highway and airport construction. books.google.com/books?id=ZIK3zRHSx3cC&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&lpg=PP1&dq=the%20late%20great%20pennsylvania%20station&pg=PT468#v=onepage&q&f=false This decades long expenditure, with FHA/VA mortgages underwriting developments that otherwise wouldn't have happened, were the driving (pun intended) force behind the unprecedented expansion of suburbs. The percent of Americans living in suburbs went from 25% to 50% from 1950-2000, with nearly all population growth occurring there. It wasn't the difficulties of residential development in New York City, it was that Federal spending excluded the private market in all older cities. As for freight crossing the Hudson, the primary reason for establishing The Port of New York Authority 100 years ago was the construction of a rail freight tunnel and needed facilities from New Jersey to The City. When the railroads couldn't agree on funding and participation, Port moved on to auto crossings. As you say, the container ports on Newark Bay were the nail in the coffin. The result is that New York is the most truck dependent city in the US.
I remember going to Penn Station and Grand Central as a kid. Penn Station was a dump. The Pennsy had let it go to pot long before they sold it and let it be demolished. Nostalgia for lost building ignores how bad the experience of going through Penn Station really was. The New York Central did much better at keeping up Grand Central (and their passenger trains) than the Pennsy. If any business deserved to die, it was the Pennsylvania Railroad.
If Biden wants to do more than talk about "infrastructure" (which is unlikely), he can take a page from Ike's book. Ike built in the Interstate Highway System. The government should scrap the 19th century rail system and build a new, state of the art, high speed rail system. The railroads would operate over public rails just like trucks and buses operate over public highways and airlines operate over public airports and public ATC.
Trivia: The original Madison Square Garden was also built out of an old train station.
@@dk50b Those programs led to the establishment of many Jewish communities in the suburbs as well, Mr. Koenig.
Man I haven’t watched this in years and it’s quite a throwback. When I was first getting interested into transit this was one of my favorite videos.
The two track bottleneck sounds a lot like the situation we had in Stockholm up to a few years ago.
Basically every passenger train in Sweden passes through Stockholm and the station only had two tracks south of it that had to take all regional long distance and commuter trains.
They could do 28 trains an hour per track and that was really pushing it so they used 24 trains to have a margin and 16 of those where local commuter trains and only 8 trains could be regional or long distance which caused a huge bottleneck in the entire Swedish rail system.
A few years ago the commuter trains where moved to an underground station with separate tracks which solved the situation.
However what we see now are bottlenecks further out in the system which makes it hard to use the new capacity to it's full potential.
Well, that margin dried out on many days faster than Lake Aral ;)
Never seen a proper train traffic jam before and after Stockholm. This project was so dearly needed for Pendeltåget. I can only imagine how bed it must be around Penn Station where tracks are not only extremely limited but the tunnels themeselves are barely fit for purpose anymore and the risk of major closures is hanging over everyone.
Ah yes, Penn Station.... it's really sad they tore down the old one - NYC has such a sad history with amazing buildings torn down to create architecturally cold structures. And when events are happening at Madison Square Garden it's just a pile of humans shuffling in and around Penn. Now that Moynihan is done it's still fairly empty because you need a ticket to go to certain places in there. Also looks nicer and reminds a bit of old Penn.
The improvements to Penn Station are definitely rolling in now. Ive been taking the train pretty frequently the past several months and even over the course of 2021 I’ve continued to notice more and more improvements. Moynihan obviously is a much nicer train hall, but isn’t really accommodating much of the travel yet. But it looks promising. They’ve also improved the various escalators and other entrances and exits to the tracks, which makes the flow of passengers a bit better. Still won’t tell us which track until the train arrives though…
"NJ trains cannot use LI tracks and Vice Versa" this is entirely false and has been for a long time (at least 2011). 3rd Rail is installed on tracks 5-21 (the tracks that can be accessed from Queens) and AC is installed on all tracks, however, 19-21 track is on its own breaker group which is turned off unless needed.
Wow adding 2 (train) lanes to NJ/NYC transit actually solved traffic.
Great explanation. I only go to Penn Station to get on my trains to/from NJ and that's it. It's not a pleasant place to be. Btw, the Moyniham Train Hall you mentioned will not fully resolve the current issues at Penn Station as it will only handle 20% of the current traffic of 650,000. The only solution that would resolve the current situation is for MSG to be demolished and rebuild the old one. There is a movement to rebuild the old station & relocate MSG and it will cost $3.5 billion dollars.
Sadly, greedy cooperate assholes are the reason why nothing is getting done cause in America, it's always money > people.
I agree with everything that you've said. Eventually I'll make a second episode on Penn station, but I just haven't had much time recently.
That's basically capitalism for you: money>people
corporate assholes had nothing to do with it, incompetent city and state governments can take all of the blame and then some, PRR needed the money to keep operating. NJ, NY, and NYC are far greedier and bigger assholes than any corporate, oh well, there is GM.
Bring on the revolution--it's anarcho-syndicalism time!
@@henryostman5740 This is a total falsehood. From Wikipedia:
"In February 1959, [American car manufacturer] Graham-Paige purchased a 40% interest in the Madison Square Garden for $4 million and later gained control. In November 1960, Graham-Paige president Irving Mitchell Felt purchased from the Pennsylvania Railroad the rights to build at Penn Station. To build the new facility, the above-ground portions of the original Pennsylvania Station were torn down."
NJ, NYC, and NYS had nothing to do with it. In fact, no gov't entity took any control of NYC area transit until the Great Society in the mid 60s gave local and state gov'ts the funds to buy out ailing rail companies. Frankly, if PRR had held out only 5-10 more years, they would've been able to sell to the MCTA, the MTA, or the Port Authority which would've kept the train hall, just like they did with Grand Central.
1:52 lol this is the general American way of thinking wait until a issue becomes a problem then do the bare minimum then return to ignoring the problem
0:42 It only has 2 trains a day, but because the empire builder splits, amtrak registers it as 2 trains for some reason.
The point made at 2:22 made me wonder: what was the original Penn Station's layout like? Would it have handled train traffic differently? If so, how?
Finally someone who talks about nyc area trains I don’t have t watch Geoff marshal as much
Of major train stations I've visited, I've been to Penn Station, 30th Street Station, Grand Central Terminal, Buffalo Central Terminal, Toronto Union Station and Washington Union Station. Penn is the worst I've been to. BCT hasn't hosted trains since the 70's and was absolutely trashed in the 90's by a developer who's name we will not mention and I'd rather go there than Penn Station.
At least there is a station, in Phoenix we just have an abandoned rotting Amtrak station that doesn’t even have trains going to it today
To be fair, Phoenix is too remote to make good use of intercity rail. Maybe once that high speed line from LA to LV opens, it'll be of some use but right now, using rail to go to or from PHX just doesn't make sense for most ppl.
@@lozoft9 though the metro area has over 4 million people
At least we have East Side Access coming, so we can redirect LIRR into the chad older brother of Penn Station, Grand Central.
That project, while needed, is utterly ridiculous in execution and everything that is wrong with the City, the MTA and existence. What a fucking 20 year clown shoe they got going.
@@phuturephunk Well they are using existing infrastructure, cutting down on costs and speeding it up. I honestly don't see what's wrong with it. Penn Station is as crowded as is, and we need to open that up somehow for breathing room to improve the bottleneck that is the North and East River tunnels and other parts of the area.
it's always comming but like a LIRR train, it never gets there. don't hold yer breath.
Te first time I visited NY, also the first time I ever travelled completely by myself, and the first time to do so abroad (I'm from Spain) I entered the city through Penn Station, and it was depressing
I’ve been to the Moynihan train hall now and it’s beautiful!!
We went to Penn Station NY. This year 2022 and We loved it we taravel from N.Y to Orlando Fl. And it was wonderfull.
We want to go again next year.
Go when the homeless people camp out in the station in numbers. 😅
0:42 "Four trains a day" It's actually 2 trains a day, one in each direction; the route splits into two west of Spokane, WA.
In a similar manner as the Lake Shore Limited splits in Albany to New York City and Boston. The diner goes to one city while the lounge goes to the other city... The Empire Builder splits in Spokane with the diner going to Seattle while the lounge goes to Portland...
As a New Jersey resident, I don’t blame Christie for cancelling the ARC tunnel project as it was a flawed design. After the Penn Station Connector tunnel portion was shelved because of major construction and environmental challenges, the resulting design had the tunnels dead-end in a new station deep under 34th street with only pedestrian access to Penn Station. As such, they could be used only by NJ Transit and not Amtrak. The problem with the deterioration of the North Hudson tunnels used by Amtrak would still have to be addressed as would the 100 year-old Portal bridge on the approach. The Gateway Project is a far better and more comprehensive design as it calls for the new tunnels to terminate in Penn Station and replacement of the several drawbridges on the NJ side.
Where Christie deserves massive blame is for using the money from ARC to shore up the NJ state transportation trust fund to put off raising gas tax and indirectly refurbish the Pulaski Skyway in Jersey City. The money should have been banked for the Gateway Project.
Wait!
I think I've found a solution to Penn Station being over capacity!
Just demolish a few hundred square miles of city and build a highway!
Even better, you could just tear down the whole North East Corridor and build a 30 lane highway in it's place. You could name it "Induced Demand Memorial Highway".
Your railway can't have a capacity problem if there is no railway.
LOL
We had an amazing train station in Detroit that currently is in a prepretual state of preservation.
0:43: That is not 4 trains a day. It is 1 train in each direction which divides en-route to serve Washington and Oregon.
man I wished they rebuild the original station but upgraded to the current or even future loads of passengers
It would be nice to see your reaction to the new Moynihan Train Hall
Penn was not the first rail passenger connection between NY and NJ. That was the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad, or the McAdoo Tunnels, today called PATH. H&M predated Penn Station by about 10 years.
I remember getting off at Penn Station via NJ Transit or LIRR (I usually grabbed the ACE or 123 out with the fam), I remember asking my mom "Hey I wanna see what the outside of Penn Station looks like." And she said it's "It's really just stairs." Then on the way back from Macy's we cross over towards Madison Square and I see literally just see a big stairway reading "Pennsylvania Station" and I'm like "THAT'S IT???" And she like "Toldja!" 😂
In the same genre, in Paris France, there is the "chatelet-les halles" station (750,000 users / days during the week ~ 500,000 on weekends)
This station interconnects 3 of the 5 regional lines (RER) and 5 of the 16 lines of the Paris metro as well as 16 bus lines.
in addition 2 of the RER lines (the longest and the one serving the 2 Paris airports) use the same tunnel to cross Paris
***Birmingham New Street flashbacks intensify***
While many points you bring up are valid, (actually all of them) I must say it’s hard to get things done with all the corruption in New Jersey. NJT has managed to not only fuck itself up, but also the state. My uncle, who does consulting for train companies, (LIRR, Some stuff in Europe, stuff in Iowa) said NJT is unfixable, and he has been in this business for decades.
Do you have any examples
@@ap1765 examples for which part?
Anything.
For years NJ Transit has been used for either political patronage do nothing jobs, or for a slush fund to raid for easy cash to balance the budget.
I used to commute through Penn Station and it is truly dreadful. Even 30 years ago, there was talk of a big renovation, but it never got beyond fancy renderings and empty promises.
the penn station rush was one thing i noticed last time i used it, my friends and i were trying to find out where to wait for our train and it took us a while to realize we had to wait until just before the train got there to know which track it would be on
I commute (at least, before the pandemic) everyday to Penn Station, but I never knew why all these problems existed. Really informational video!
I just discovered your channel and you have put to words the exact underlying concerns I have felt regarding US public transportation. What makes this funnier for myself is that I am extremely familiar with a couple of the different stations you reference and have filmed at. I look forward to seeing more videos in my subscription feed.
You deserve more subscribers!!!
I've heard there's a group trying to get the original station rebuilt from the ground up and before you say anything there are quite a few replica buildings that were rebuilt replace the originals which were destroyed
It’s the worst. And with all the money I pay for LIRR why can’t I have Wi-Fi on the train?
As an tourists in 2015 I went from NYC to DC by train. I found very strange to we needed to wait in the central hall before we could go to the platform. Never seen that anymore before
That seems to be the standard at large stations I’ve seen in the US. For some reason, Amtrak treats getting on the train like boarding an airplane, at least in New York, Philadelphia, and DC.
As someone who commutes through Penn Station, you failed to mention how it also doubles as NYC's homeless shelter in inclement weather. Because NYC does a shit job at addressing their homeless crisis, you get hundreds, if not thousands of homeless that you have to navigate around
Oh yeah I remember Penn Station. I took the Acela Train there from DC. What a cluster.
Concerning the numbers: it might be the European in me, but 6 trains per hour on a single track to cross the river doesn't sound that much to me? That's only 1 train every 10 minutes...
You be right if the tunnels where short. They're about 9km long. And the speed limit in them ranges from 80mph to 30mph
@@alanthefisher thanks for the info, that puts the numbers in a different perspective
*Only* 1 train every 10 minutes? How many trains does your local station get?
@@qlder0284 1 train every 20 minutes / 3 trains per hour per direction. ... but the point is: it's not a major city or station, but I'm in a small village in a rural county, with only commuter trains stopping and all other trains just rushing through.
@@EnjoyFirefighting Ah I see. As an Australian that lives in outer suburban Melbourne, 1 train every 10 minutes is a very good amount of trains for a suburban station as far as I'm concerned. But I forgot to consider that this is between New York and New Jersey, in which case there should probably be MORE than that.
There actually was a new station headhouse for Penn station built in a post office near the station not too long ago. But its not as good as the original one.
It still has a similar style of the original station and in my opinion it looks beautiful
The better fix would have made Penn Station a through station and put your terminal stations on Long Island and New Jersey. You would still need to make it roomier but your major infrastructure investment would have been where it is less congested.
In the meantime, if there's a problem on one of the tracks from Jersey to Penn Station, all NJT needs to do is stop trains at Newark or Hoboken and have people take PATH across the river (or ferry from Hoboken). Before the original Penn Station, that's what they did.
We need to rebuild the original Penn Station.
I think that could happen if MSG gets renovated. The first ten stories could be the train hall and then a revamped MSG could be built on top. neo-MSG could have a translucent ceiling and a floating court surface to let light pass through when the arena's not in use.
I agree. It would still be crowded but at least it felt a little classy. Penn station as it is feels like a good place to get mugged, especially if you are there later at night.
The new train hall is nice. Hopefully it does the job well when everyone returns.
I used to think of Grand Central Station as "the largest train station in the world" (or at least in the West; I know they have some dang huge stations in Tokyo), but looking it up, Penn Station gets nearly twice as many passengers. For all its splendor and notability, Grand Central Terminal only sees about 20% more passengers than Oslo central station. Actually, it appears that only four stations in all of North America get more traffic than Oslo S, which is hardly a huge transport hub considering it mainly serves the population of east and south Norway.
Also, Gare du Nord in Paris really pulls its weight. It gets three times as many passengers as Penn Station on a yearly basis. And then Tokyo's Shinjuku Station apparently takes five times as many as that again. Going there in rush hour must be an experience.
I think Grand Central isn't even the station with the most passenger tracks. If you count all the different companies and smaller stations that are interconnected with Shinjuku station it has 53 tracks vs. 44 for grand central. Shinjuku gets more than 2.6 million visitors a day.
Believe me witnessing the morning rush there is something else.
Even the main station where I live gets nearly half a million passengers a day and the metropolitan area where I live has less people than NYC alone.
MNRR has lower ridership numbers than LIRR, that's primarily why. LIRR services Queens, Nassau and Suffolk, which have much larger populations and rider numbers than points north of the city served by the three MNRR main lines that terminate into GCT. Also, I think GCT got that moniker because it has a very large number of terminal platforms that can receive trains. It's basically a huge double stacked fan of platforms.
@@lars7935 and side note, when visiting Shinjuku, try not to get lost in the corridors ;)
@@remko2 Never got lost in Shinjuku but I once spent 40 minutes walking around in Ikebukuro station trying to find a specific exit. I gave up and took the long way around. At least google maps is able to help once you are outside.
The labeling and wayfinding at Shinjuku is really good but there's only so much you can do with kilometers of halls, 200+ entrances and exits and half a dozen companies operating in the station.
@@lars7935 My sister and I only tried to get from the west side to the east side, for sure going to a platform wouldn't have been a problem ... but passing under it from west to east ... well, that proved to be a challenge.
Luckily there was a very friendly elderly gentleman who pointed us in the right direction, and when he concluded we probably would get lost again, walked us all the way to the exit we needed .... which was quite a long way, we felt kinda guilty for having him guide us to be honest.
Man I’m so thankful that we got Moynihan Train Hall now, at least the renovations should do penn station justice
it has a major flaw: the stairs bring you to the very end of the platforms. so when your cab is located further front, you're screwed.
I’ve used Penn Station twice for Amtrak keystone services, once before the new Moynihan train hall, which was absolute hell in that confusing maze, and once after it Moynihan was built, which was significantly more pleasant. The first time around separated waiting areas for Amtrak, LIRR, and NJT, which doesn’t make any sense to me as someone who has mostly taken trains in Europe.
HOW I DISCOVERED THIS CHANNEL ONLY NOW?
>Worst station in the US
*Laughs in Midwestern Amshacks*
At least the Amshacks are outside compared to Penn
Having seen and gone through some of those Amshacks: They handle the traffic they get well enough, and they aren't ridiculously crowded and confusing. Some of them, at least from the train, look like they're sometimes even a bit of a source of pride for their tiny town. e.g. Newton, KS has in some ways a better station than Penn Station.
The LIRR has 5 tracks exclusively, 17 through 21. Hopefully it will also be able to send some of its trains to Grand Central in the next 2 to 3 years.
I remember visiting my sister on the east coast in Philadelphia. We took a train into New York, and stepping out of Penn Station and seeing a giant arena on top of me was definitely a WTF moment.
I went there and found out that 'Madison Square Garden' is not a garden, it's far from Madison avenue, and it is round.
New York, Penn is the United States most well connected station. Theres bus, cabs, two 3 line subways that connect north and south from penn, plus two multi branch commuter services serving the station east and west, I agree with expanding station entrance rail tunnels to either 4 or 6 tracks for better train access allowing Amtrak to have it own dedicated right of way!
That tiny town in Montana, gets more service than my station in PA, but soon they are increasing service. Yay
A quick note on the high line: It is stupid, that is all
Why?
@@keeganharris186 Public Transportation could of went there, the (7) train
@@artoismta they can have the L or LIRR regional rail style use it
@@artoismta I’m pretty sure they would’ve not done that because the High Line is overground and since it ends in a millionaire’s playground...
It’s time for an update
Lets not forget the generation of people who destroyed Penn Station is the same generation that thought it was smart to cover hardwood floors with linoleum or wall to wall carpet.
Penn Station is underground to break your spirits to get you ready for subway stations. (JK)
Jokes aside, the High Rise is excellent, but be sure to pack sunscreen if you want to walk the entire length (which you should consider doing if you're in NYC).
I didn't really think about the Penn Station rush, I just thought that was normal. I also want to point out that (at least it seemed to me) that the underground platforms seem smaller and cause slower foot traffic when exiting a platform.
Also, talking about electrical problems: I'm not sure if this is a limitation of third-rail power, but power in carriages can sometimes be inconsistent, especially near stations with interchanges like Penn Station and Jamaica.
Yeah, the breaks in the power have to do with gaps in the third rails because of the switches. There is at least one gap in Penn Station that is so large that Amtrak will not allow a train with a single locomotive to run off third rail, lest it get stuck and require a rescue from another locomotive/train. Overhead power does not have this problem.
I remember the crass difference between the platform area (narrow steps, no escalator, no elevator, no aircondition, hot and stinky, no space like in a 3rd world country) and the pompous and spacious main area in grand central, new york... as if there were a portal between the main area and the platforms
The low ceiling sitch is here at Union Station in Chicago. The original headhouse was demolished in the 1970s so an insurance company could use it to house cubicles containing frantic/caustic/otherwise disgruntled human to perform tedious functions. As originally built, the area leading to the tracks had high ceilings with skylights. Fortunately, the waiting room has been restored to functional beauty. From what I've seen of Moynihan in videos, the refurbished post office was a great idea well executed. Someone gets urban planning! Hand him or her a cookie. Okay, a dozen.
This is true. When I visited the station it was so hard to navigate and I’m from the west coast. I don’t why it is like a maze.
Hey, I just rode the train to Penn Station a few days ago! My first time riding a real train (i guess the free trolley at hilton-waikoloa doesn't really count, but i loved to ride it as a kid)
Look at a PRR system timetable, say front 1938, and you'll find dense rail traffic that the system adequately handled. It serviced the LIRR and NJ commuter trains in addition to the number of long distance intercity trains greater than today's (some had multiple sections).
For a still-not-great but not-quite-as-bad combination of sports arena and train station, Boston has North Station, which is still kinda ugly and modern but at least functional while also being part of the Boston Garden complex (home of the Celtics and Bruins).
The worst is when there's a basketball game and it's rush hour it's a nightmare
I went through penn station a couple months ago, and I thought it was so bizarre how people were frantically trying to get onto the train once the platform was announced. I guess it's not an uncommon occurrence at that station, but I haven't experienced it any other time in my limited experience
Hi, I like your vids. You could probably reach a wider audience if you did a little backstory on (old) Penn Station first, we know what it was, but most people don't.
Here's a way to get politicians to actually listen and invest in railway infrastructure: Rail Strike Week(s)
So all the railway staff go on strike for an entire week (or even a few weeks) and the politicians get to watch the transportation network crumble. I don't think this would ever be done because it would likely cause the railroad company to lose a ton of money. Though we'll never know. Maybe, someday, things get so bad that it actually happens...
Can you make an updated Pennsylvania Station video?
I travelled to Grand Central Terminal on my visit to NY, not to catch a train, but to tour the place due to just how crazy the station is. Nobodys doing at Penn Station anymore ;-;
You should do an update video about NYC trains now that Moynihan is open + other things!
I hate the rush I have trouble walking and it made it stressful to me
But when they built the Garden, they included a bowling alley. Score one for the new Penn Station. 🤣🤣🤣
Bowling alleys in train stations was actually done to revitalize iconic train halls. Eventually that was abandoned in favor of turning them into the urban answer to shopping malls.
Now there’s new station . It’s very modern and comfortable.
I can’t see a great deal wrong with the new parts of Penn Station. The main problems with it seem to be with the overcrowded platforms and the stairs leading down to them, and these parts are basically unchanged from the original station.
I used to commute to NYC from Philly and I hated PennStation and the bus terminal. I ended up Taking the Bolt Bus and got off on Broadway. At least there was daylight.
Honestly slightly similar to London's Euston station - nice old station and lovely (not an) arch demolished and replaced with a horrible brutalist structure with no natural light - at least in euston's case the demolishing served the purpose of increasing capacity unlike with Penn station.
Don't go to the High Line.
Why did they ever move the long distance trains out of Grand Central? It does still have some class. Penn Station is little more than a subway station with pretensions.
I too am curious about this
Post-Amtrak (1991, actually): to connect with Northeast Corridor trains without having to do a transfer on the subway using two lines, or via taxi/bus service.
Pre-Amtrak, the Pennsylvania owned and operated Penn Station, while NY Central built Grand Central. They were two separate rail operators that would often compete with each other that eventually merged into Penn Central in the late 1960s, which collapsed like a drunk Jenga game in 1970.
Can we get an update now that Moynihan train hall is open?
I would do anything to have the old station back. But hey at least we got the new train hall up and running. Doesn’t fix pen station but it does something.
Do a video in rethinknycs plan for penn station and sunnyside yards
Love the High-line. Penn Station has public bathrooms still at least...
do you plan to revive this series after a year? I'd love to see more videos
Yes! Most of the projects that I wanted to upload never got past half way done. But I'm working on a series focused on how to fix different cities infrastructure starting with Philly! It should be out this month.
@@alanthefisher If you'd like to talk to a fellow urbanist and train-worshipper, who is also from Philly, try reaching out to Donoteat01 on youtube or twitter. I mean you probably already know about him seeing as you both have the same sad, nihilistic humor about US infrastructure, but if not check him out! Can't wait for more :D
Perhaps a tad off topic, but The WTC PATH station is definitely more aesthetically appealing than NY Penn. The architecture is gorgeous & it’s cheaper to take NJ transit to Newark Penn station and then the PATH into NYC anyway (though it does add about 15 minutes to the journey and puts you in a different part of the city that may or may not be closer to your destination).
I took the LIRR into penn every now and then when I lived on Long Island, and what I can say about Penn Station is that..... Well like... Uh, it's a station
Destroying a Magnificent Train Hall for Madison Square Garbage, great job New York, great job
How long has the station been over capacity people-wise? The station has been sufficient for many decades, even with the "new" Penn Station. Also, you neglected to mention how terrible the relatively new stairs and mezzanine that NJT opened for their commuters is. Think the idea of the rush to the train is bad? Try not bothering to put in waiting areas (or any major open areas) for the waiting passengers, and you've got passengers sitting on everything except chairs until the rush happens.
Whenever I go to NYC, which is ALWAYS through Penn Station, the ONLY thing I want to do is get the hell out of NYC immediately.
From what I understand, there is a plan to gut everything below the court/rink level/5th floor of MSG and turn that into a Train hall.