A Train Derailed in East Palestine, Ohio; Why did that Happen?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มิ.ย. 2024
- Norfolk Southern what's your Function? Hotboxing trains on the business line.
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Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
0:42 An Overview
2:09 The Derailment
5:49 Talkin about Brakes
9:33 Policy
12:58 Outro
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I wanted to make this video double the length but I'm physically running out of time before I have to move apartments.
There is so much more to say and talk about ECP brakes, their implementation and the insane cost of applying them to every car. Maybe I'll make a second add on video to this one eventually...
Okay cool Alan Fisher
Okay cool Alan Fisher
If you make it longer the buffers wont be large enough to hold the videos!
@@butuskutyus843 did you seriously copy my comment
Just like with freight trains, sometimes two shorter videos are better than one long one.
Quick reminder that NS *LAID OFF ALL FIVE SIGNAL AND DETECTOR MAINTAINERS* in this NS district in the years before this disaster. The maintenance personell left only have time to perform the federally mandated tests.
Union should be all over the media with this!
Hm who woulda thunk that firing safety inspectors would negatively affect the safety of this operation 🤔
@@sillygrillbut line go up tho right?
The Ohio river supplies water for over 250,000 farms in the Mid-west. This will affect Americans nationwide with contaminated crops and food.
@@BoxOfMangoes There's not nearly enough chemicals for that to be a concern. This will be vastly diluted by the time it gets in anything. It's likely going to be even lower measurably than mercury in the air from burning coal. We're talking a single train with 115K gallons of chemicals. That's a lot yeah, but the Ohio River carries more than million 2.6 billion gallons of water at any second. This is less than a millionth a percentage and not even all of it went into the river with a large amount burned away.
Also you can't believe the water we have is perfectly clean. I live in a smaller city of 50K people, and wherever the small creeks have rocks, you can seem foam in the water. That's runoff from chemical, motor oil leaking from cars, and soap buds. This will have basically zero effect on people, it's being incredibly overly exaggerated. I don't think people realize how contaminated everything is around us yet we call it "clean".
Thank you for bringing up the hotbox detectors. I seriously don't understand how a clearly burning car wouldn't have been caught by a detector and it was driving me nuts that nobody in the news was bringing them up.
Are these detectors ever inspected or tested to make sure they are working? I'll bet that the detectors closest to this derailment were inoperable.
@@Bobrogers99 I have no clue, which is why they need to be a focal point of the investigation.
@@Bobrogers99 Considering it wasn't a yard it passed through thats possible....
@@Bobrogers99 If the train crew received no response from the detector (as it will also give you a "no defects detected" recording), then the crew should assume the detector has failed and stop the train and report the failure to the train dispatcher. More than likely the conductor will either have to walk the entire length of the rain or inspect the train from the ground while it rolls by at 5 mph.
@@WAL_DC-6B I suspect that the railroads are short-handed, and some of these "required" inspections don't happen.
You're also supposed to stop your freight train if a detector fails to give you a "no defects recording" as that could indicate the detector has failed or your train could be derailed (yet still moving) and ran over the detector and destroyed it. This is what we were taught at the RR I worked at.
For ours, it depends on the type of detector. Talk on entrance only? Keep going. Talk on defect only? Keep going. Talk on exit? Tell dispatcher, they contact detector desk and you follow whatever instructions they give you
@@josephjoestar3275 Admittedly, I've been retired from the railroad industry for nearly five years. But I recall the detectors we had at that time had a recording telling you the location of the detector, your axle count and if your train had a defect and which axle(s). Otherwise, you heard the detector location, your axle count, "no defects" and "think safety ... out."
@@WAL_DC-6B "Safety First, Always. Detector Out."
@@josephjoestar3275 We had "think safety" at the time, but perhaps it's changed to what you hear.
Sitting 200 yards from a detector right now. All it has said for the last 3 trains is detector and mile post. No direction, no speed, no axle count, no detector out nothing like when you went over them 5 years ago. Yes it is a hotbox and dragging equipment detector.
I did not know that hot box is what caused the derailment, and frankly now that I know that it makes things so much worse. This was such a preventable disaster.
Really? I'd heard that a few days ago.
Because I am online too much.😳😭
@@grmpEqweer a lot of the media coverage has focused on the brakes and the political blame game
@@tonywalters7298 Which is rather hilarious given that the one thing which is "political" that contributed to the state of the railroads is that congress can (and very publicly did) prevent railroad workers from striking for better pay and conditions.
Hot box detectors merely look for wheel bearing temperatures that are anomalous. If the wheel bearing gets too hot, lubricant overheats, the bearing seizes and falls apart, causing the axle to fail. Happens in your automobile, bicycle, skateboard, anything having wheels or rotating parts.
On most RRs, hot box detectors are spaced every 10 mi / 16 km or so. On this particular line segment, it sounds like these detectors are spaced out a bit more. It also sounds like the alarm is triggered only by the temperature exceeded a certain level, not by exceeding a rate of change of temperature. It appears the train crew did the right thing, brought the train to a stop, alerted the authorities, and proceeded to get the locomotives (and themselves) to a safe distance.
In 2008, a horrific train on train collision, in LA, gave Congress the backbone to mandate positive train control. But, it took a horrific accident, of which there had been many before. And it had to happen in a major city, where there was enough political power to demand improvement. It sux to need a horrific thing to happen before things change.
From what I understood in this video, a hot box isn't something that caused the derailment but something that didn't prevent it when it probably should have.
I would love to add, from what I've heard from ex-NS employees is that the hotbox detectors likely did catch the bearing failure, but didn't reach the temperature to alert the crew. Dispatch likely had been notified and was monitoring it. NS detectors have a temperature monitoring level that alerts dispatch but not the train crew or sometimes only notifies dispatch relying on dispatch to pass the message. I might imagine that dispatch is so used to hearing those that they have kind of mentally tuned it out
so basically almost every single thing which could go wrong, went wrong - prime US moment
Yep, confirmed as per the preliminary report released earlier this morning by the NTSB.
Train 32N was operating with a dynamic brake application as the train passed a wayside defect detector on the east side of Palestine, Ohio, at milepost (MP) 49.81. [4] The wayside defect detector, or hot bearing detector (HBD), transmitted a critical audible alarm message instructing the crew to slow and stop the train to inspect a hot axle. The train engineer increased the dynamic brake application to further slow and stop the train. During this deceleration, an automatic emergency brake application initiated, and train 32N came to a stop.
On the Fort Wayne Line of the Keystone Division, NS has equipped their rail network with HBD systems to assess the temperature conditions of wheel bearings while en route. The function of the HBD is to detect overheated bearings and provide audible real-time warnings to train crews. Train 32N passed three HBD systems on its trip before the derailment. At MP 79.9, the suspect bearing from the 23rd car had a recorded temperature of 38°F above ambient temperature. When train 32N passed the next HBD, at MP 69.01, the bearing’s recorded temperature was 103°F above ambient. The third HBD, at MP 49.81, recorded the suspect bearing’s temperature at 253°F above ambient. NS has established the following HBD alarm thresholds (above ambient temperature) and criteria for bearings:
Between 170°F and 200°F, warm bearing (non-critical); stop and inspect
A difference between bearings on the same axle greater than or equal to 115°F (non-critical); stop and inspect
Greater than 200°F (critical); set out railcar
www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/RRD23MR005.aspx
I've also seen other comments saying that NS had laid off the 5 signal/depector inspectors for the region in the years before this happened, and remaining maintenance workers only had time for federally mandated inspections and the like.
NS's hotbox temp threshold is higher than most other railroads.
@@alexphillips4325 And yet the derailment still happened.
My engineering capstone in college was creating a cart that rode tracks to inspect rails for surface defects with machine vision. The biggest thing our team learned from reading the FRA regulations was they heavily restrict progress that involves putting requirements on private company inspectors to do more or use new technologies. Also, the local railroad we were working with as a stakeholder told us that most problems come from large rail companies setting standards of inspection for things like cars. These standards include how often, what components, and how long inspection crews have per train car.
Large companies in canada and the US have slowly decreased the time their workers are allowed to spend per car as well as cheated FRA regulations by inspecting cars every 9,000 to 14,000 miles instead of the traditional 3500 miles of use. The railway inspector we talked to even asked if we could make a system to scan the underside of rail cars, so that private companies inspectors would actually be able to fully check cars in the dumb 90 seconds they are given currently.
As reference, a Canadian railway steadily shortened the time they gave inspectors to check each car from 180 seconds to 115 seconds and they said it would save on the costs compared to the estimated number of derailments they would expect.
So that Canadian railroad is factoring in the economic costs of derailments vs mandated inspections. I wonder if the cost of the derailments included something like Lac Megantic where the oil train ran away and incinerated half of the town and it's residents?
@@markfryer9880 I guess people have dollar values instead of meaningful lives. The ethics of the bottom line.
I might be in favor of testing wheel adhesion with the bodies of people who make those kinds of "cost-based decisions". "Yep...those wheels weren't phased by that guy at all. Pass!"
💯
@@ScotHarkins You have to catch and condem such people first Scot and you know what Admin types are like, they protect themselves with layers of jargon and double talk, not to mention legal loophole protections and golden parachutes.
@@markfryer9880The problem with things like this is, they don’t become a problem until they become a problem!
4:13 holy hell I’ve never seen a train bounce so much.
haha my thought exactly, coming from gemany this looks so absurd :D
Our oligarchy is oozing us into a third world authoritarian hellhole, with a dazzling facade of democracy and affluence. Cheers.
Yeah I was looking at this and thinking ‘is the cameraman gonna be ok?’ So the lesson I meant today is; don’t open a glass factory in the states.
Smoothest NS track conditions
These are harmless compared to some other tracks, btw.
Retired CSX locomotive engineer and NE Ohio resident here. I've been gone for nearly 15 years, so some of my experiences are outdated, especially regarding the now absolutely massive size and weight of freight trains in the last 7 or so years. I've had mixed trains that were 10K ft. or so in length, but they always had a lot of empty cars in them and rarely exceeded 10K tons. The only trains I ever ran that got to 18K tons were unit coal trains, and they were about 7K to 8K ft. long. A 9,300 ft. long mixed cargo train that weighed 18,000 tons is a ginormous train to me. The longest train I personally know about in NE Ohio recently was on CSX, and it was 16,000' long. As far as I've heard the train in the wreck did not have any DPUs further back in the train or on the rear, which might have been a good thing, since one pushing on the rear after the derailment started, but before the break in the train air reached the end of the train would have still been shoving the rear into the pileup longer. As for the figures on train air; service air (normal braking action) moves at ~400 ft/sec., and emergency air moves at ~900 ft./sec., so if the derailment started around 4,000' into the train and had a little over 5,000' to dump the air to the last car, that would have taken around 6-7 seconds. Plenty of time for the mayhem we see to have occurred.
As for the hot bearing, Defect Detectors (DDs) are not perfect, which is why there are an entire set of rules for dealing with them in the rule books. There are usually two types of detectors (at least used by CSX). Type I detectors give a greeting and results, and type II detectors give results only. My understanding is that NS only uses type II detectors. The major difference between how you deal with them are the rules about when to stop and inspect a train between the two types of detectors, and are stricter for type I detectors, meaning there are more chances you might have to stop and inspect with type I detectors, so why use them in the first place, right? So, it is possible that the first detector at West Salem, Ohio missed the beginnings of that bearing overheating, and since the next DD was about 20 miles away, that was enough time for the wreck to become inevitable by the time they tripped the detector at East Palestine. I think one of the recommendations that the NTSB will (should) make in their report will be to start placing DDs closer together, say 10-15 miles apart instead of 15-20 miles apart. I didn't know until this happened that there is not a federal rule about the placement of DDs, it's just up to the company to decide. I also think (hope) that this wreck sets back one man crews at least a decade.
Not to be too picky, but the map you drew as to the route of the train was a little off. My understanding is that the train re-crewed in Toledo, so further north than you showed. There are two ways for it to get from there to East Palestine, and NS has refused so far to say which way it went, possibly to avoid further stirring up the politicians, because the one way (and most likely routing) would have taken it through some very large and prosperous white suburbs and major urban areas, like Cleveland, Macedonia, and Hudson, Ohio, the richest community in Summit County (Akron). Dump that mess in the middle of Hudson and NS would have been facing bankruptcy level lawsuits.
One other thing that apparently has changed in the last 15 years are the definitions for types of hazmat trains. When I was there, the only special designation for hazmats was the term "Key Train" (I do not know if this was only a CSX term, or a legal national term). A Key Train being any train with 20 or more placarded hazmat cars or 5 or more Poison Inhalation Hazard (PIH) cars (like chlorine). I know the number of PIH cars that trigger that designation has now been reduced to ONE. So this train should have been a Key Train, even if it wasn't a "High-Hazard Flammable" one, if the Key Train designation still exists. The designation triggered actions that needed to be taken in case of certain problems, and also required certain placement in train restrictions (like not putting certain flammable loads next to poisonous ones), and where it could operate (not on "Excepted Track" - the worst maintained track that is legal to use). When a crew had a Key Train, their paperwork was clearly headed "This is a Key Train". Also, in case of a wreck like this, the conductor is supposed to give his paperwork to the proper first responders to note what kind of nasty sh*t they are dealing with (after they get to safety themselves). I did not sign up to die (or go to jail) for CSX when I was there.
I confirmed this evening that this 32N did operate via Cleveland, Macedonia, Hudson and Ravenna (Amtrak route of the "Capitol Ltd.") before it derailed in East Palestine. Can you imagine the uproar if it had derailed in one of those communities, or if it had derailed while passing Amtrak? Talk about tragedy avoided.
Additionally, I also learned at the railroad club meeting I attended Friday evening that since I worked in the industry, Norfolk Southern (and maybe other carriers) has created a Defect Detector "Help Desk" that decides when an indicated hot box is hot enough for the crew to actually stop and inspect, instead of stopping to inspect every time a detector alerts a defect. A supervisor in Atlanta can look at data from every detector on the system, showing the temperature of the offending axle. They decide if it is far enough above the ambient air temperature at that location to warrant stopping the train to have the conductor inspect it. Previously, a conductor physically walked the train to the indicated hot axle, and used a device called a temp stick (looks like a cheap tire pressure gauge) with a stick of a waxy substance that melts at a predetermined temperature to swipe the indicated bearing to see if it is hot enough to set out from the train. If the check does not show that bearing to be too hot, he then has to inspect every axle five cars either side of the indicated one, since the detectors are not perfect and do make mistakes. If no hot axle was found he had to tag the indicated axle, and if another detector alerted to it, the car had to be set out, even if it still passed the stick test. Now, there are often false alarms with these detectors (maybe half the time?), so there is some logic to doing this. The question is how much of a chance the company is willing to take that it's a false alarm? 32N tripped two previous detectors, and the crew was told to keep going, the axle wasn't hot enough to stop and inspect. The first detector it tripped showed the offending axle was 40 degrees above ambient air temperature, and the second detector showed 103 degrees above. The detector at East Palestine showed it was 253 degrees above ambient air temperature, at which point the Help Desk instructed the crew to stop and inspect the train, moments before the axle failed and started the derailment. NS rolled the dice and came up snake eyes. This just might be the end of the Defect Detector "Help Desk", if there is any common sense left in the World, and the beginning of federal rules governing defect detectors, which currently do not exist.
@@paulw.woodring7304 Just to confirm, but when you say "degrees", you mean Fahrenheit?
@@deidryt9944 Yes, I'm an ugly American who still uses Fahrenheit.
At last one person with experience with the actual time required to fully activate the air brakes under service and emergency modes for a train around this length. It is true that any braking system would not prevent a derailment but it is about controlling the pile on effect of the following cars and engines that, being able to release the air electronically from all cars and DPU's means all brakes can be applied that much faster in train lengths common these days. Basically going from two modes to apply the brakes to service, emergency and "shift your pants now!!!".
The issue is not the brakes. The issue is an industry that puts profit way, way, way above safety.
As a European, when I see these shots of trains hobbling over hilly tracks, I'm amazed that trains are still running there at all.
If there’s a slight bounce on a level crossing it’ll get picked up by a measurement train and then they’ll fix the track next time they do maintenance. Instead of “eh the train is still on the tracks, f it”
Railroad companies in America are lazy. They are pretty goofy one might say, they do however have cool looking trains
@@OumuamuaOumuamua The railroad company I worked 26 years for was in no way "lazy" nor any of the other railroads I would take transfer trains to in the Chicago area. They were very strict with safety so much to the point that we use to say, "this is the only industry that as soon as they hire you, they look for a way to fire you for some rules infraction." Let me give you an example. The Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) come up with a rule forbidding the use of cell phones by crew members while operating a train. My company went one step further when it made it against the rules to use a cell phone while inside a locomotive ever if you were on a break. One crew member didn't think this applied to him when he used his cell phone on an engine during the crew's lunch break. He got caught in the act by two trainmasters and the entire crew (three people) were fired that day. Pretty much everyone "got religion" in the railroad with the use of their cell phones after that.
@@WAL_DC-6B I will read this message later, however I see you like classic Douglas aircraft so rock on
@@OumuamuaOumuamua This is true and especially the Lockheed Constellation.
you forgot one policy: ALLOWING THEM TO STRIKE
I'm obviously biased but I fully believe this would've been prevented if this country had any respect for organized labour
@@jacobgasque7699
D@mn right.
How can they even prevent a strike?
Seems pretty difficult to me.
Even if it's illegal to strike, you aren't going to get much work out of a man/women that doesn't want to work. ;)
@Robbedem Biden signed a bill that would they be charged under the Espionage act if they strike
@@Robbedem Congress voted to outlaw the strike, which was an implicit threat that they would send in the cops/other grunts with guns to break a possible strike
I'm a civil engineer who worked on commuter rail systems for 2+ decades, in addition to another decade+ on other trans modes. That video of the racing freight train starting at 4:09 is just very scary but also very very routine & is a common track bed situation before & after grade crossings, of which there are multiple small ones in that location. The road bed of the roadway is of a different material, thickness, configuration than the base material of the rail bed, thus can lead to differential settlement & even differential "stiffness" in the road bed depending on depth to groundwater, soil type beneath, temperature of soil, temperature & humidity of the air. In this case, you can see the entire train, especially the locomotives, jumping like a set of bucking bronco's, as they navigate the differences in sub base conditions associated with these very simple very basic grade crossings. I see this in "foamer" video's on YT all the time, as they are usually filming at grade crossings. Now, is this "dangerous"? Apparently not that much, considering it's so very very very common everywhere. But given that train speeds are increasing, along with lengths & weight, it's definitely a "problem in waiting". Certainly if an axle or other component was near failure, this extreme cyclical loading could be the "straw that breaks the camel's back".
I couldn't help but imagine it making comical "boinnngg" noises.
It looked like it was designed to get air. I bet the crew doesn't go "whee!" as they jank over the transitions.
Practical Engineering recently did a video on bridge ramps, transitions, settlement, and load requirements. If such transitions are not properly planned they create added wear on vehicles and infrastructure, and can easily lead to accelerated degradation and potentially catastrophic failure. It's bad enough we let bomb trains roll with little in the way of safety inspections, adding crappy grade and transition planning and maintenance just invites disaster.
But, hey, saving on rolling stock and stuff makes the company stock go up, so yay?
Indeed, at major structures, such as bridges, major road grade crossings, "interlockings" (crossovers between multiple tracks), even the approaches to maintenance shops in yards, "transitions" are well planned for via subsurface design. It's these small ones that are problematic, again, depending on subsurface conditions. This is a really extreme example - high speed combined w/a series of little crossings. Good thing it's on a straightaway.
If you don't want to insult railfans then say railfan, don't call them foamers, in quotes. Yes many of them get a bit excited, but most of them know more about trains and railroading than 99% of the population.
@@larrybolhuis1049 I'm a foamer, as well as worked on railroads. I can take a joke. Aimed at myself. Pull the stick out of your ass. I'm also HIgh Functioning Autistic / "Asperger's", so "knowing more than 99% of the population" about just about anything is the story of my life. But no one cares, until their toilet backs up, or a bridge randomly collapses. I'm still a Foamer.
NATIONALIZE RAIL!!!
Yes
yes comrade…
Yeah sure, the American government will act in the interest of the people and not businesses.
cheaper amtrak tickets first
@@renz3 Unlike private businesses, which do act in the interest of people and not businesses?
A great overview of the incident. It's kind of crazy how big this story blew up that non-train people are talking about it. I hope now the nation's spotlight is on freight railroads, there can be more reforms to improve the system and treat the workers better.
Then again, there's a lot of people whose response to this event has been that we should stop using trains. *sigh*
non train people are talking about it because it has been politicized. seems blaming this on Trump is what all the talk has been, and of course blaming this on corporate greed. it's almost as if trains never derail except this one time and it HAS to be blamed on some overarching plot be some evil transgressor. can't be that bearings fail and the results are this.
the very same people would have lost their minds in the 1970's with major derailments every week.
Yeah I agree craftyfox if the railroads take this as a warning to maintain their rail cars then crashes won’t happen again
But... But... "ThE uSa HaS tHe MoSt EfFiCiEnT aNd EfFecTiVe RaIl FrEiGhT sYsTeM"
It doesn't...
The swiss are the ones who do.
Hey now, if you want a hopper of gravel delivered two weeks late because it was stuck in a yard one city over you're not gonna find it anywhere else than here!
Nope
Sr Electrical Engineer at [unnamed big passenger railroad]: We tested ECP on literally one train a few years back. Haven't heard much about any other railroads testing ECP, but I think making that the law of the land just adds more complex systems with more failure points for NS to not inspect.
How did the ECP perform?
All I can figure as an electrician is also more points of failure as well. Not that I'm nearly as well educated, real world experience says more points of failure, fail more.
I'm a retired locomotive engineer. In fact, my old route from Mansfield OH to Conway PA went through East Palestine. While I generally agree with your conclusions, I have some serious differences with your take on ECP brakes. You imply that they are new and untested technology. They have been in use safely in more enlightened countries for over twenty years. They are tried and tested technology. As you say, the difference in set up time is just a few to a dozen or so seconds depending on the length of the train, even a few extra seconds can significantly lesson the impact of 10 or 20 thousand tons slamming into those stopped cars. I agree that having shorter trains will lesson that impact too, but you can do both. Engineers are taught to use dynamic brakes first and only use the air brakes when absolutely necessary because air brakes have a tendency to kick, or go into emergency just from normal use. That's not the case with ECP. With ECP engineers could brake the entire train, instead of just the head end, giving them much better control of the train. Another advantage of ECP is that you could add links to sensors to the cable bundle for the brakes. You could put a heat sensor in each set of wheels which would let the engineer know if a wheel was heating up, instead of having to wait twenty miles or so to the next detector.
Your worst error was the claim that having a unit in the middle of the train help speed up braking application. Mid-train units are electronically controlled to ease the pulling strain on long and heavy trains, but their brakes are cut out. If their brakes were cut in, you would have to have someone on the engine to bail off the engine brakes every time the engineer ion the lead locomotive used the air brakes. As far as speed of brake application, they are no different than any other car in the consist. So yes, we need to regulate the length and weight of trains and we need have more car and track inspectors. But we also need ECP brakes.
According to the NTSB's preliminary report, the hotbox detector in Salem, OH reported that the wheel bearing's temperature was 103 degrees Fahrenheit above the ambient temperature. Norfolk Southern's policy states that you are only required to stop the train and inspect a hot bearing once it is 170 degrees Fahrenheit above the ambient temperature. There's more to these regulations than this, and I encourage everyone to read the preliminary report for more information. However, that's one policy that needs to be looked at in my opinion.
I hope Ohio still lets trains go through them. But if it doesn’t, then we need Conrail to come back from the dead and take over freight. This channel is very Conrail friendly, so we can all agree that Conrail needs to come back to solve the situation
As NS already has the right of way, I don't think Ohio could stop them, as states can't interfere with interstate commerce
@@chessiesystem613 nice
The whole rail system should be public and turned into Conrail.
Ohio can't do anything. Rail lines are private land and thus have all the protection the constitution provides for private land. Ohio could try to eminent domain the rail lines but thats going to involve a lengthy and expensive legal fight with NS
@@TheUrbanGaze This is actually being tested in the supreme court right now, including ironically enough Ohio who wants the right to fine trains that block intersections
I think public ownership of a strategically linked interstate mainline rail system would be good in a lot of ways. Rails should have an interstate system that aren't privately owned.
Oh like the post office 😂
@@Dog.soldier1950 not exactly .. but yeah . There are private carriers and the public owns an option. I don't think every single rail line and loco needs to be public... But there ought to be a way to send a railcar across the country without having to use a private line.
Imagine if every road was owned by one of four companies. Owning a bunch of line would give regulators and Amtrak the ability to improve things.
actual working regulation would do the job. basically, owner of the rail can charge depending of the quality. any company can run trains. it's basically what we have here in switzerland. the former national railroad (sbb) owns most of the track, but anyone can run trains on them. passenger trains have priority. transport contracts for public transport are given away every few years (government (federal, state, local) define the service) and any company can bid on them. freight contracts tracks rights are bid on shorter notice.
the main point is: companies are contract bound and not at liberty to do as they please (neither is the government, they can't slash down service on a short term whim). either side doesn't fulfill => penalties are applied. if you simply replace the quadruply (or whatever it is) with a monopoly (even non-profit) you probably don't get better results. monopoly's only would work, if you completely change the internal way things are run (you basically have to have a internal mechanism to ensure efficiency). otherwise you generally end up with a non-working system, especially in a very corrupt place like the US. It's gonna be the nephew of the president, with the same skill of bankrupting stuff, which runs it...
Reminds me of a debate over why my country's only Olympic-standard skating rink is in a privately-owned shopping mall that's now going to be replaced by an apartment tower. So our athletes may now have to go overseas for training
My cousins are from Casselton, and I remember when the oil train there exploded. That was really my first realization around how bad rail was getting in the US.
Where a BNSF oil train Collided with a derailed grain hopper car
Thanks for making this video. I live 45 miles southeast of East Palestine OH. I'm worried that my water and air is contaminated here even though our Local news (Pittsburgh) had said on repeat that only Beaver County PA should be worried.
Check the wind from th days of the accident for where it blew, and where surface and groundwater flows in the area
@@the_retag There is a testing area very close to me by the Allegheny County Health Department and it is normal here so far. The good news is that the water and air is normal. So far.
Yeah, you don't need to be worried about East Palestine if you are outside Beaver and Lawrence counties. Most of the air pollutants ended up going north and they would disipate and dilute by that point. And the Allegheny and Mon are upriver from East Palestine as well.
What you do need to be concerned about is Pittsburgh's own problems with at least a dozen polluting sites in its own right and a water system that is broken in many places.
Actually, the Defect Detector in Salem Ohio did go off. According to the NTSB the Salem detector was performing to all specifications. Reportedly the wheel hadn't gotten hot enough yet for it to report a critical alarm, and the crew didn't get one until well after it was too late...
So if the bearing was visibly on fire at the time, it could be a fault in the detector design? If your detector is working as intended and reading low, while the bearing is on fire, that's no bueno.
@@professorspark2361 I am not sure myself. All I do know is the defect detector at Salem performed to the specifications that it was designed to do
@@professorspark2361nothing wrong with the detector, the companies just put the critical temperature higher so there is less stoppages, they care more about profit than safety
@@deeznoots6241 I think, that if the temperature set point is high enough that the bearing being actively on fire did not trip it, they may have set it too high.
Regardless of if it functioned as intended, it did not stop the accident, and so it failed the intended purpose.
You forgot that the End of train device can also adjust brake pressure. Coming from a friend who used to work at CSX
Also EOTDs can be used to dump air on the rear of the train in an emergency to apply the brakes faster. They are absolutely necessary on long trains without a DPU on the rear.
All the time I operated freight trains for a class 1 railroad I never had a hind end marker (smart one) that could reduce the air pressure to set the brakes from the rear of the train (versus the front). The end of train markers gave you the brake line air pressure on the rear and you could also "dump" the air for an emergency brake application (in fact, "dumping the rear marker" is part of an air brake test before the train departs the yard.
Bring back the Caboose
Man, that clip of mine from 2009 of 8300 really gets some mileage these days LOL
To be honest, I wish you spent more time talking about the policy stuff. This was a very preventable disaster. Yes there were no immediate deaths from the incident, but it has effectively ruined the lives of thousands of people, traumatized them, and more likely than not given them serious long term health complications. You went really easy on the media in my opinion. I don't believe there was a coverup, but it's absolutely worth outrage that it took over a week for mainstream media to actually start giving the disaster major coverage and not even high quality coverage. Also with Buttigieg, even if he is very limited in what he can do, shouldn't we at least expect him to be out talking about the policy changes you propose in this video rather than throwing his hands up and saying there's nothing DOT can do about it?
What do you expect from a liberal, they love the mainstream media. Let's all be honest if this happened under a conservative administration or if it took place in a blue area of the country it would be one of the biggest stories of the year
There us huge danger in listening to those that want to act like they are objective experts who want to ignore policy and politics. As a train person you have to understand your interest IS political and crushing the rail workers strike months back was an example. Just because brakes or workers rights didn't CAUSE this disaster there's huge danger in poo pooing discussion of those reforms too while national and regulatory attention is on the subject
There absolutely was an attempt at a cover up, NS tried their hardest to downplay the situation, say its safe and be the ones responsible for home water testing (with signing a waiver nullifying NS of any liability of the accident), everyone said no to it for good reason. That and they kept fibbing about how much hazardous material actually was on that train, and was found out it was way more than what they originally said.
I dunno about the news being in on it but i do think some of the districts absolutely were, railways have a lot of power in Ohio.
45000+ animals dead, millions of people affected by their air and water, etc, impact analysis is sorely lacking by these train companies.
Right on
I think there should be enough support to Nationalise Norfolk Southern just out of spite for what these criminals have done to the workers and the townspeople. at least Ohio should nationalise ALL it's railways just so this doesn't happen again
So, if an airline has a fatal accident through its own fault, it too should be "nationalized?"
@@WAL_DC-6B "As the name suggests, false equivalence logical fallacies are a cognitive bias by which events, ideas or situations are compared as if they are the same when the differences are substantial"
You can't do that. This isn't communist country.
@@titan-x9913 You get my point.
@@LeahK2018 i wish it were
I’m so glad you made this video. I live 20 minutes from East Palestine and I was actually in town the night it happened. I wanted to know why it happened and everyone has been hung up on calling it “America’s Chernobyl” or calling it a coverup instead of blaming NS.
Now there are some people that want all trains gone.
Imagine if same company had to hire 100 truck drivers to deliver the same load on roads. Not only it would contribute to damage of those roads, we would have so many more accidents like that.
Closer to 1000.
@@kitchin2 there were 150 cars on that train, and idk the frequency it drives (assumed lower tha once a day) or how much each car carries compared to semitrailer (assumed around as much, while it's 5x)...
I am perhaps wrong on both, but either way. nobody want's to crash into chemical truck.
I think this can be summed up in this one sentence: "Norfolk Southern put profits before safety, and could have been prevented."
This is why public rail is better than private rail
I was a field manager for NS for 6 years. In general, a railroad operation has SO MANY moving parts. Especially train handling issues, mechanical problems and track related.
After all this PSR implementation, the more eyes that are on the railroad operation, the better. NS had been slashing the operations folks in the field for years. That was definitely a contributing factor. Someone could've caught this possibly.
Amazing video! Since this happened I've been trying to learn more about American Rail.
Looks like there's tons to learn!
Trains fight such an uphill battle even from their own freight companies here it’s insane. And now we have a clear demonstration that it’s also deadly
Thanks so much! Finally, some factual based reporting of this problem.
Really hope to see you on the Well there's your Problem episode about this disaster
Seconded.
That parody of “Conjunction Junction” at the beginning brought memories flooding back.
2:38 FYI, crowdsourced defect detector net map shows DD at Salem, Columbiana, East Palestine 3:25 DD discussion 4:35 hotboxes pick up overheating bearings, axles 5:18 Salem DD, if not earlier, should have alerted 32N to stop, investigate. 5:55 air brakes 101. 6:33 even on longest train, all brakes should be applied in seconds. 9:39 policy prescriptions. FRA has less oversight power, control points than FAA over aviation. FRA needs inspector funding. 10:56 at least 2-person crews. 11:44 defect detector standardization (presumably, calibration, testing protocols) 12:01 PSR 2x, 3x longer trains. 12:22 to-do list summary. 12:29 public ownership 12:39 Norfolk Southern a terrible railroad ☹️
I think the first claim about it not seeming newsworthy in the mainstream isn't really entirely correct. A huge explosion of toxic chemicals causing a mushroom cloud in a town is something they'd usually lap up, but it wasn't really clearly politically advantageous for one party and the clear enemy was a huge corporation so it's possible there was very little motivation to cover it. However it already became a huge news story bc of independent media, tons of Americans had heard of it and we're very concerned so MSM was kind of forced in a competitive way to begin covering the story that has gripped the nation
Exactly, that's my read, too. One party is big on railroad and in charge of federal oversight, the other is against regulations and in charge of state government, therefore nobody has an interest to ask the awkward questions that could lead to actual change.
When you’re able, please elaborate on why you think Buttigieg was “mostly” powerless in doing anything to help prevent or rectify this situation. Thanks!
Hands cuffed by the lobbies the Fed have been bending the knee to since the BN acquisition
Great video. Can't wait for the four hour WTYPP ep on this and hearing Roz's wonderfully exasperated tone.
ILLINOISE, my favorite Sufjan Stevens album
One personal experience I had in regards to defect detectors occurred about seven years ago. I was on a train that had already traversed over 600 miles of territory, and had gone over several defect detectors. A conductor standing on the ground doing a roll by reported sparks coming from the wheels of cars just ahead of our cut in DPUs. My conductor went back, and released the hand brake on the cars someone had missed. My conductor mentioned that the wheels had turned dark purple from the heat.
“No it wasn’t a coverup, it had media coverage”
The only reason it got media coverage is because of the internet blowing up the subject and they were like “oh fuck we can’t hide this anymore”
If anybody wants to learn more about the derailment, and specifically about why people have been so concerned about some of the chemicals (like vinyl chloride) that the train was transporting, I highly recommend That Chemist's video on the derailment (his channel is literally called 'That Chemist'). He does a good job of boiling everything down such that it's concise and easy to understand for those that don't know a lot about chemistry.
For what I've read, the train crew actually received an alert of a "hot axle" and brake to stop, but it was too late.
this is literally the reason why we need railway nationalization. (havent finished the video)
Yeah, and let's "nationalize" the trucking industry when you consider all the fatal "big rig" accidents in the U.S. every day.
@@WAL_DC-6B or just remove a lot of them by improving our trains, plus roads are already nationalized mostly and have to be up to some standards
@@WAL_DC-6B
You definitely could. Certainly could make sure some companies aren't putting total fools on the road.
Too, a lot of companies use exploitive lease arrangements that mean a new driver works for practically nothing.
That is B.S.
@@WAL_DC-6BAmerica needs better rail, and that would alleviate a lot of trucking problems. So that's correct.
@@TheBlawdfire No, I'm not referring to the highways, but the companies that own the trucks themselves.
FWIW I worked for NS briefly back in the 2010s and frankly it wasn't a great place to work. They did spend a lot of time talking about safety but perhaps it was mostly just talk. I do remember while I was there there was a sign in the break room saying something like "N days since last fatal accident" and N went to zero at one point. (As a recall, one worker was killed by a mudslide while walking the tracks to check for flood damage.)
2:10 I didn't know this was turning into a secret episode of WTYP
Nobody ever expects the Rocz.
Very interresting video. Thanks for explaining all the important things that happened.
You are a source I trust.
Finally people are seeing what happens when the wrong industries get privatized , private run companies have one goal Profits and keeping investors happy. Even at the cost of safety and lives. As the country grows it needs someone to make sure this doesn't happen if private industry can't be trusted what other options are there? I can only see 2 one public ownership, two regulation that the private sector will fear if they start cutting corners . I have family that worked for the rail both recently and decades ago. They Told me all kinds of stories about how the RR will hush things.
Thanks for the great work, just wanted to point out a minor detail, when you mention North Dakota's Casselton derailment, at ~11:23 you call them ethanol cars, the cars were carrying crude oil
I have heard many wrong assumptions in my 40 years of railroading Allan but it does no good to talk down to people when they point to the need for ECP brakes. We developed this at AAR research and test in Chicago back in the 80's and people's frustration in this regard has more to do with how long the industry resists adopting improvements, and this would include ECP brakes that can dramatically reduce stopping distances under many scenarios. Humility is an asset.
Very well put together
4:30 if you hadn't told me your friend, Brian, goes by they them I wouldn't have known how to refer to your friend, Brian. Very appreciated, and highly relevant for the video. 👍
Thanks for making a video on this, I live in the area and we go to a camp each summer only 20 minutes away from East Palestine. Its kinda scary with all of the stuff that’s been happening, we had to buy a bunch of bottled water in case the tap was contaminated.
I love this channel's mix of transportation and old school vulf
I was in Miamisburg a few weeks ago and saw a train that was also exceedingly long, about 120 cars, maybe longer. I didn't think about it at the time, but that train was probably under the same conditions for possible failure as the East Palestine derailment, it just hasn't happened yet. Reading more up on derailments, it's obvious the precision railroading thing has been the reason trains derailed so much in the past 30 years.
The fact that no one physically saw the car that was on fire and reported it
It is not 'normal' that trains derail
Last year were 64 derailments in all of the EU...
Your Infrastructure is awful
And they weren't fatal at all, so that is also a thing.
The background footage of the train bouncing and jumping over the janky rails was fucking terrifying to me
It’s not the governments fault (well only partly) it’s the fault of the private companies giving the middle finger to maintenance and normal operations because: “muh profits” and “muh investors”
Does that 64 include britain?
I know there was atleast 1 cement train that fell down a bank.
I was so confused about this story. People acting like its normal or not a big deal. Im Dutch and ive never heard of an incident like this. Especially with these goods on board; this shouldn't have happened
You don't hear about them because Europe doesn't do freight rail. Less than 10% of freight in Europe is transported by train in the US over 40% of freight is moved by train
@@AdamSmith-gs2dv oh wow. I wonder why that is. I know in Europe many warehouses have rail connention. Even some ikeas i believe. Imma look into that. I know freight trains are the cheapest method for transport in the US, but i wonder what explains that difference
@@tijmen5355 Varies by country. The Swiss have a LOT of freight rail, it's pretty fantastic
@@AdamSmith-gs2dv Switzerland outperforms the US in freight but go on...
@@Joesolo13 it's an illusion. the typical train length in Switzerland is 2,500 feet and they can't run double stacks so this means more short trains on a rather small rail network. the total system is only 3,300 miles; Wisconsin has about the same rail miles. Switzerland hauled 7 billion ton miles by rail, 35% less than by road. in that same year, 2019, the US hauled 1.5 trillion ton miles. i think your understanding of "a lot" is distorted a tad by seeing lots of short trains zipping about.
Thanks for the info and the insight. I learned more here than I did via national news and talk radio. You're doing the job the media SHOULD be doing!
Apparently NS only stopped the train when the temperature was around 250f above the ambient temp , so it was detected three times, but they only decided to stop when the temp got REALLY hot, which really isn't good enough.
Even when Conrail was a private company, (from what I know) they didn't have so many derailments as NS currently does. Plus, they always had the slogan "Conrail Quality". NS? Not so much. So we need Conrail back, public company or private company. And in the meantime, we should probably bring the SP & some other companies back too.
We need the USRA back
The Ohio derailment is a carbon copy of the Mississauga derailment of 1979. Read up on that one for the trains, the part that failed, and the toxic chemicals involved. They are completely different in how the media and politicians responded. Even the Canadian rail company handled it better.
CP rail gigachads
Thank you for posting this, great content as usual
Thank you for the lesson will.
Bring back the caboose!
Great video as always!
I actually haven't read anything on this incident and was waiting for a channel like this to do a video on it to learn what happened.
Also you know things are bad when conrail gets praise.
What are you talking about? Conrail was wonderful, it was a golden age of American rail.
Granted I only know about Conrail from this channel so watch his videos on Conrail
@@danielscalera6057 Sorry I think I was confusing it with penn central.
Nicely done, thanks!
Love the video and that Outro was amazing we need another conrail mix soon
Minnesota is currently working on passing a two man crew minimum for class 1 and 2 railroads!
It is being covered up, well at least it’s not being taken seriously enough, a mushroom cloud and contaminated water, maybe I’m stupid but it’s at least not being taken seriously enough
It’s hard to cover up something that’s both extremely public, and can be leaked by the average Joe with a camera, or professionals willing to do research on the ground
I would say not being taken seriously enough
It's a bit of it's not being taken seriously enough but also it's not as bad as it could be. We've seen worse ecological disasters, and some of them have been from similar incidents. And the emergency response was swift and appropriate; scary as it may look with proper efforts this isn't going to scar the land for long. The issue is there's not much for laypeople to talk about unless they're willing to understand why rail is where it is, and that's no good for capital. This leaves news agencies treading water talking about how often trains derail in the US and how scary the effects of this look without being able to go into detail or meaningful discussion.
@@tonywalters7298 yeah
@@jtgd well at least it’s not being taken seriously
thank you so much for this video i love 15 minutes away from east palestine and have a lot of friends from the town and the entire event has been blown WAY out of proportion.
The lesson here is to Never compromise on safety processes. It's necessary to modernize and update them, and don't ever give up on them. If you do, then it will bite back hard at some point. The freight railroad Execs. have been skimping on safety to prioritize profits, and that's now biting back hard. Safety includes inspecting the rails as well as the trains themselves.
Here in Canada, hot boxes currently have to be a maximum of 60 miles apart which I always thought is wildly far apart considering how fast a problem bearing would fail and how much is at stake if the failure is not detected. I should also mention, detectors are often different depending on where you are. Some always talk. Some only talk if there is an alarm. Many of them are configured so they talk differently. Some only measure bearing temp. Some measure speed and axle count. There is no consistency. I should also mention that locomotives are quite loud to work in and not very comfortable at all. There are many factors that could've distracted the crew as there are sometimes a lot of instructions to comply with. It can be completely overwhelming, especially if you are not properly rested or having to run the train on your own. This job is much more difficult and stressful than most people realize and it is made quite dangerous thanks to the rail companies themselves and the ridiculous lack of regulation.
Hey Alan, great video coverage on the tragedy in Ohio. I was wondering if you could dedicate a video to the failures in the policy decisions governing the Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) service.
California seems intent on thinking that gutting it further because a transportation service isn't turning a profit is a good thing and I'm finding it difficult to explain to folks why that logic is incredibly shortsighted (like most things under capitalism :/)
BART needs to go to driverless operation
Nationalized systems are terribly run
Please make a video on the train crash in Greece!!! There was an accident with ~40 dead and 85 injured. (tip: the train sector was privatised 3 years ago)
Great job NS. Great job.
We disagree on several policy positions, Alan, including electrification and nationalization, but I must commend you on the quality of your railroad videos. You're obviously very knowledgeable about the subject and the sound, graphics, and video footage are excellent. But most impressive is your narration. This video is one of your best. Keep up the good work. And thanks for the effort that goes into every production.
You don't think rail lines need to be nationalized?
@@utterbullspit
No...I do NOT think nationalization is a desirable option. There is no justification for turning an efficient, profitable industry into an inefficient, money losing government entity like the U.S. Postal Service.
@@michaeljones7927 So you think its a bad idea that the government doesn't maintain the rail infrastructure and control who may use it? Alot of disasters are preventable with proper maintence.
@@Mgameing123 I have no confidence in the ability of government to efficiently operate and maintain our national rail system. I was part of the government railroad regulatory apparatus for much of my career and observed widespread mediocrity. I liked my fellow employees, but cannot imagine any of them managing a railroad.
the US post office only loses money because Republicans rewrote policy to lose money in the first place. not to mention services are not supposed to make money if the first place.
The Westinghouse brakes are still pretty good.
There were lots of policy changes that allow these railroads to haul toxic chemicals with fewer safeguards, andchanging the classification of these chemicals to get around strict requirements.
Yes they are better than shouting from car to car. But with wireless communication, good understanding of the physics, and some smart programming, it should be possible to stop a train without piling up.
Thanks for making this timeline
Great video as always but man that intro is powerful. I'm in awe.
I remember me and my friends laughing our ass off when we learned about a train derailment in OHIO. We kept on saying only in Ohio💀💀💀
I’m aware of the meme…but for context Ohio has the most track mileage of any state other than Illinois and Texas…and it’s geographically smaller than both. So if trains are gonna wreck, it’s gonna be Ohio, Illinois, or Texas. If it’s gonna be ugly, chances are best it’ll be in Ohio because of the number of small towns and cities everywhere…most of Texas and Illinois is pretty empty by comparison…and just about every train stops in Chicago.
But then you have Lac Megantic in Quebec
@@AMT1345 it’s cool that you mentioned Québec because that’s were I was born
@@thehm6580 i was born there aswell
Amazing work. Really appreciate you recognizing areas you don’t know as well yourself and platforming friends of yours who can better speak to certain things… it sure would be cool if journalists did more of that in covering news events involving issues or topics they’re totally unfamiliar with!
Very interesting!
Been waiting for this video. This is your moment, Alan.
I've heard that that Arizona is proposing how long freight trains can b
Fingers crossed everywhere else follows suit.
As someone who is currently studying chemistry, it's also been really frustrating to see all the journalists, politicians, and terminally online keyboard warriors suddenly become experts in chemistry when they're criticizing how the officials handled the derailment by setting the vinyl chlorine on fire. There were two big problems with the derailed cars which made the situation extremely dangerous and which demanded their immediate action: number one was that pressure was building up inside the containers, basically turning them into giant bombs. If this pressure built up too much then the containers would've exploded, sending shrapnel and vinyl chlorine everywhere, which easily could've gotten into the water table and into people's lungs. The other problem is the flash point of vinyl chlorine is very low (-78 C, about -108 F). The flash point is used to measure how flammable a chemical is, and it's defined as the temperature where a liquid vaporizes into a flammable gas. I've seen people asking "why didn't they just isolate the tanks and cool them down to prevent the explosion?" and other questions along those lines - it's because there was no time to bring the equipment required to cool VC down to below -78 C out to East Palestine. So to summarize: if the officials hadn't responded the way they did, what most likely would have happened was that the tanks would have exploded, sending shrapnel everywhere and covering East Palestine in a vapor cloud of vinyl chlorine gas, which could have been ignited by any kind of spark, and which would have turned the entire town into a giant fireball of phosgene gas. So yeah, the controlled burn and getting rid of the vinyl chlorine as fast as possible was the best (and basically only) option, regardless of what the discord users are saying in #politics. I'm not trying to claim that I'm an expert, and there could be some information that I'm missing or an alternate solution I don't know about, but this is my take as someone who knows chemistry.
Hey, thanks for explaining that.
I wasn't sure whether a controlled burn was necessary, OR if the company just wanted to get rid of a bunch of toxic chemicals (that they may or may not have been 100% honest about at first), in a quick and dirty way.
Companies are never forthcoming.
@@grmpEqweer Yeah it could've been the case that Norfolk Southern just wanted to get rid of the chemicals as fast as possible and would've done the burn even if there was a better option, but I'd like to think that at least one person on the team behind the burn knew what they were doing. It'll be interesting to see if NF will try to dodge paying for the cleanup though, that could give some more insight into what they think about the disaster.
@@charliewilson8782 I heard they reopened the line without doing a proper clean-up first. They have to break up the track now to remove all of the contaminated soil.
On the other hand, a big phosphene gas fireball over a random town in ohio does sound like it would make for a good album cover...
Thanks for such a level headed take on this. I could easily share this with casual friends and family as a great summary.
It still makes me all really mad though.
Fantastic video as always Alan 👏
Alan, thank you so much for making this. I'm from (and currently living in) Ohio and I have several friends from East Palestine. I've super pissed about the derailment mainly because it was preventable by y'know good practice by the railroads. I've been wanting to do more research into the specifics of the policy that let this happen, and you just gave me the directions I needed.
Thanks for the video, especially the policy suggestions. The other day, I was on the way to the grocery store here in town, and a Norfolk Southern tanker unit train was going through town, and tankers all had flammable material placards on them. I live about 200 yards from the railroad tracks, and I really hope we don’t have a derailment here. I think I’m going to write my representatives , and urge them to take action to keep these railroads safe. I am a big fan of using railroads to carry both freight and passengers, and even have had friends in the industry. I believe with the proper regulations and safety procedures on the part of the railroads, they can become again one of the safest ways to carry goods.
From the moment I heard about the disaster, I'd been waiting for this video.
Thank you for an informative and candid presentation of the affair ... I like your last cut "Conrail never put a train on the ground for a hot box" ...
Great video, I am glad you talked about the breaking systems as that seems to be the go to media talking point. It's a much bigger issue and we have run on "trust us bro" regulation model with far too many industries.
Very informative..The railroads were the original "robber barons", still are. The class ones should force to divest of their main line ROW....it would could be publicly owned or sold to a non-profit company. The railroads would have to pay tolls to use the system and any operator could go anywhere...Open access. principle.
The same principle by which the state forces you to take a dick in the ass but makes the dick owner pay them $1.00 for the privilege
Looking forward to the Well There's Your Problem episode on this
I love the intro song for this video. Parodying a song from children’s media but with distorted vocals just perfectly captures the dystopian hellscape of it all