That potential train map for South NJ covered all the towns I've ever lived in...I can't even imagine how awesome that would be...and how much less traffic there would be, like holy crap. Car companies are why we can't have nice things!
... And we now needlessly must forget about that! What you are proposing is now impossible (no collective willpower left; too strongly addicted to 'pettifoggingly-'inefficient urban/sub-regional bus transportation or, preferably, over-the-expressway car transportation; *and,* disgustingly, not even a *thought* from anyone to simply improve all of the PATCO High-Speed Line so that it and existing tracks on and entire deck of the Benjamin Franklin Bridge will very supportively accommodate any 'heavy' or regular Diesel-locomotive-hauled and/or single-coach 'Doodlebug' and DMU trains as well as third-rail-dependent electric trains like those in use on all three of MTA of New York's and the New York City Transit Authority's rail systems - NYCTA (subways and the elevated, intermediate-type Staten Island Railway), Long Island Railroad, and Metro-North - as well as any Washington, DC Metrorail type suburban and urban subway and elevated-subway trains *and* PATCO's still-currently-running trains... AND to then consider extending the PATCO Line's tunnel from its current Fifteenth Street off Walnut, Philadelphia, terminus to CSX Transportation's yards alongside the Schuylkill River, from which all train traffic would head north into Fairmount Park in order to use CSX's Baltimore and Ohio Railroad- bequeathed Columbia Bridge across the river in order to use the formerly multiple-carrier (defunct Reading, Baltimore and Ohio, ultimate successor CSX, now-likewise-defunct Conrail, and Norfolk Southern)-shared track within the western side of the park in order to continue en route to Thirtieth Street Station and, accordingly, its extant Amtrak''and SEPTA services there )!
Not only car companies, but the fifties. Many countries built like crazy after WW2, but most realized it's not sustainable and changed their course. Enter the US, which doesn't seem to have a plan what to do with the sprawl it created in 1950's.
? we cant have nice things in philly because its a Ghetto Shithole ...how bout the Girl who was raped on a El car (chicken bone express) noone called 911 they jus filmed it
Car companies aren't the problem; neoconservatives are. If you aren't willing to vote like you should, and you don't vote enough (or you sabotage good POTUS's like Barack Obama) said neocons will always be running things in the United States and pushing for car centred solutions.
As a native Philadelphian, I’m eager to hear your thoughts…12 seconds in and I’m already pleased with the channel 6 entry tune, remind me of days with my Grand 😀😀😀
Interesting. Not only am I a life-long railroad enthusiast, I also was an Amtrak OBS employee in the corridor in the '80s and '90s, and then a CSX T&E employee out of Baltimore in the '00s. I was very familiar with the Atlantic City service, having worked the Amtrak version of it for the last 3 1/2 years they operated it. I also was a qualified CSX conductor and engineer on the Philly and Trenton Lines, and down to S. Philly yard. I could see the possibilities and problems with what you propose. Needing truckloads of money would just be the beginning. Before the '08 crash and the current pandemic, the High Line was kind of a bottleneck for CSX and NS, which also uses it to access their rights into S. Philly. The bridge to S. Philly that is single-tracked over the Schuylkill River, would have to at least be extensively rebuilt, perhaps totally replaced, to allow for multiple tracks. I know I used to spend hours sitting at the end of the double-track at the south end of the bridge waiting to get across and down the road to Baltimore. Surprisingly, this stretch of railroad, from where the High Line cuts off of the former Reading on the North end to near where it joins the CSX Philly Sub near 58th St., and down to Broad St. on the S. Philly branch still has an operating cab signal system. Also, there is no longer any physical connection between the High Line and any other rail line at Zoo Interlocking. Extensive, but not impossible work would be needed.
Thanks for the insight. I thought that the highlight was alittle redundant, mainly because of the tracks paralleling the Schuylkill River on the opposite side with the tunnel under the art museum, but I guess that it would be hard to leave the yard and to head south from there without the highline. And regarding using it for transit, I honestly need to make another Philly video and include a caveat about the highline saying that it would probably be better used for a light rail or metro type train that would be physically lighter, mainly because of the age of the bridge.
Another reason the Atlantic City line didn't work is that they put the station in Bum***k Nowhere. Not the beach, not the hotels, not the casinos. It's in an industrial wasteland. PRSL went a lot closer to where people wanted to go. AC has a real crime problem. I hiked it a couple times; I'd say it's about a mile to the boardwalk. But I wouldn't do it after dark. Yeah, I know there's some kind of bus connection, but studies have shown that if you force an en route transfer, your ridership decreases by HALF.
As someone who grew up in Reading, we've been waiting for a rail line to Philly forever. Lancaster had a line to Philly put in and it did wonders for the city (Lancaster, that is)
I grew up in Phila in the 60's / 70's, lived in Wissinoming, then Fox Chase, then Rydal. Rode the Newtown line when it was still active. Got a degree in Civil Engineering in the early 80's, moved to CT, & worked extensively for decades on the commuter & intercity systems there (Metro-North, Amtrak, & CT's own startup services). So with that background, here are some thoughts: SEPTA is indeed a broken system. My CT job focused on maintenance facilities (when I started in the mid '80's, CT had basically none, we have built & are building several first class complexes, mainly in New Haven, which is now a locus for CT's commuter rail system). During early stages of development, we, honestly, had no fucking idea what we were doing. We were basically a start up, & I was a young train nerd ("foamer"). We went on extensive field trips to other agencies throughout the northeast (MBTA Boston, Metro-North Hudson/Harmon lines, LIRR, NJTransit, & SEPTA) to look at their maintenance facilities - shops, yards, specialized facilities like wheel mills & car washes. I can say, unequivocally, that SEPTA was literally the type of system you'd expect to see in a 3rd world country, in terms of infrastructure, management, employee training, & morale. Like, a half century behind anywhere else. Since retirement 4 yrs ago, I travel between CT & Phila to visit friends/ relatives quite a bit, & being a cheapskate & train buff, I take all the various commuter lines rather than Amtrak. So I transfer NJTransit to SEPTA in Trenton. Again, that is literally like stepping into another era / world. So here are my thoughts on SEPTA's initial problems: - LACK OF HIGH LEVEL PLATFORMS ON THE FORMER READING LINES!!!!!!!! This is Elementary. The Trenton line is the worst. You have many many elderly folks using this line, & they have to climb the steep slippery stairs. It's like loading a cattle car. Each stop takes FOREVER!!!! Most of the stations are just a slab of pavement next to the track. This is the NE Corridor. This is entirely UNACCEPTABLE!!!! I know other lines like the West Trenton, where I grew up, STILL don't have high level platforms too. There aren't very many systems in the northeast that don't. We prioritized that in CT & now only 1 minor branch still has low platforms (Waterbury). Low level platforms are also labor intensive (need conductors at each doorway to raise/lower the stairs, help people on), & dangerous (I bet SEPTA gets sued for "slip & fall" all the fuckin' time). It's especially vexing when a line has both types (there are a few newer stations on the Trenton line w/high level platforms). - LACK OF RESTROOMS ON THE TRAINS!!!!!!! You will never be able to extend any of the lines until your trains have toilets. Now yes, this requires increased infrastructure - toilet dump stations in the yards (we actually designed a model system since adopted by other railroads - yes Shit is my Claim to Fame as an engineer). But it's sure better than the reek of urine prevalent on the train cars from fucked up drunks & junkies who literally whip it out & pee in public right on the floor (I've seen this many times). Not to mention the urine soaked nightmare the downtown tunnel stations are. - LACK OF MAINTENANCE / ALLOWING STATIONS TO TURN INTO HOMELESS ENCAMPMENTS!!!! You want people to feel safe & clean in order to encourage usage. The 3 downtown stations are just an absolute nightmare. I'm a big guy & I feel threatened walking through any of them. Yes, I know, homelessness is a tragedy & deserves "harm reduction" measures to address, that's a separate topic. It's something that NYC & Boston have done well, to keep their big downtown stations from becoming urine soaked mad max dungeons. Phila/SEPTA = EPIC FAIL!!! - CENTER DOORS ON FUTURE TRAIN SET PURCHASES!!!!! - This goes with high level platforms. End doors are set up for low platforms with stairs & they are steep & narrow, taking forever for passenger loading/unloading. This is another "Third World" situation. Some agencies have both (NJ Transit). I don't know why SEPTA doesn't. Utter Incompetence ?!?!? My thoughts on enhancements: I'm not in favor of your South Jersey proposal. For a tunnel ALL those lines you proposed would have to be electrified. Plus a 3-way junction tying in at Jefferson? I guess? Way too Expensive. You already have PATCO & River Line. S Jersey just doesn't have the population density to justify this. Instead, I'd do these: The Atlantic City Line should stop at North Philadelphia, to provide better transfer opportunities to SEPTA system, & expand service (right now it's really only am & pm peaks, mid day there's 1 train). North Phila station is another crime infested hell hole that needs better policing for this to work, & needs better ped access to adjacent W Trenton branch station, which would benefit Atl City line patrons. Expand the PATCO line, add branches, & improve transfers to River line - The Camden transfer is another place you have to run an obstacle course of crackheads & junkies as you walk down long corridors dodging piles of human shit, then try to avoid getting your wallet ripped out of your hands as you try to pay for your fare in a hopelessly outdated fare system. The new Pennsauken station between River Line & Atl City Line at the Del Riv bridge is a nice feature I use all the time. I also don't see the point in the "high line". The Broad St subway line already provides this access. That old High Line bridge is probably way beyond it's service life. & if you think century old catenary structures are still good, well, ha ha ha ha!!!!! Making a high level station at 30th St. that's ADA compliant - yeah, good luck! I guess it could be done as a light rail type system as it wouldn't have to tie to the rest of the system. Or you could do street level light rail to serve all those areas. I would also not bring back Newtown service. Like south Jersey, it just doesn't run thru dense enough population areas. It was also never electrified, so there's got to be bridges that would need to be raised (or track bed lowered). Also way too many grade crossings/ curves & not enough passing sidings - that was always a low speed operation. I would definitely add service to the old line to Reading. Many large communities along it that are not served (Phoenixville, etc). Some other lines could be extended farther north/ west into areas where exurbs have developed since the 70's. This is already too long, not gonna try to get into all of them. I would add service on the old West Trenton Bypass (freight only line that roughly parallels PA Turnpike), an east-west route which crosses many north-south routes. This would provide a leg of a "ring" service to encourage inter-suburbs commuting. This could even be done w/o electrification since it wouldn't pass thru the center city tunnels. OK that's it. I will say Phila has a HUGE advantage over Boston in having completed the center city tunnel linking both systems. Boston has 2 separate systems & will never be able to connect them thru downtown, the "Big Dig" highway project literally Cock Blocked any possibility of that ever happening.
& Oh Yeah you Got Me with the old school Action News intro music at the beginning. "Move closer to your world my friend". Made me nostalgic for the "Fresh Fuckin' Pressels" they hawked at concerts when we took the Broad St subway to the old Spectrum (we named "The Rectum")
Great info and insights, I agree with most things that you've said too. And regarding the South jersey tunnel, that was mainly a "what if" regarding truly miracle levels of funding.
@@alanthefisher Sure. My Engineer brain kicked in = "if I had that much money here's all the other things I could do with it that I think are more beneficial"
@@alanthefisher Oh here's an idea I thought of today: How about expanding the River Line (much cheaper / easier / more versatile than expanding PATCO), then tying the River Line tracks directly into the PATCO line where it crosses the Ben Franklin Bridge, so both services could provide direct service into Phila? I believe the 2 track system on the bridge / Phila side has extra capacity, it was originally built for a multi - branch trolley system that served greater Camden. There are abandoned tunnels in Phila that could be renewed into add'l staging sidings for add'l train sets. I'd think only 1 set of 2 tracks in each direction tying in from the south would be needed as most expansion would be to the south (Glassboro / Vineland). Of course there are challenges: New River Line vehicles purchased for the expansion would have to be dual powered (Diesel & DC 3rd rail). Metro-North already runs diesel/DC hybrids like this on the Harmon & Hudson lines into Grand Central. They are engines pulling dead coaches but I'm pretty sure the same tech could be made to work on trolley vehicles. They would have to be up to full FRA crash test standards to run on same tracks as the PATCO heavy rail vehicles (I believe this was a big issue for the existing River Line, & a compromise of some sort was worked out separating freight traffic from the lighter diesel trolleys). & of course the physical connection would be difficult but short & probably not insurmountable. The trolley vehicles can turn sharp horizontal & vertical curve radii, much like the Green Line in Boston. Far cheaper than an entire new tunnel system under the river. I did check, both systems are standard gauge (that would be a deal breaker, I know the "Market-Frankfort El"/"Broadway Subway" system isn't standard - maybe 5'-0"?). The tie in could possibly happen just outside Camden. I have to look at Google Maps . . . A vastly improved pedestrian connection between the 2 systems in downtown Camden is still needed. Only a limited number of trains would feed directly into downtown Phila, as much as spare capacity allows. This is not much different than NJ Transit, where less than half their trains terminate directly into Penn Station NY, due to capacity limits of the Hudson Tunnels. I'd say light rail service is more appropriate for the population densities of South Jersey, & could get way more "Bang for the Buck" with more branches serving more areas. Of course the capacity limit of the system going into Phila will cap that.
Thought about this a little more & did some research. Both systems (PATCO & River Line) actually parallel each other for a few blocks in downtown Camden (albeit PATCO in a tunnel & River Line on the surface) - probably not the ideal location for crossovers but . . . A major sticking point is probably hi level (PATCO) vs low level (River Line) platforms. It would be difficult to accommodate low level River Line trains in hi level PATCO tunnels in Phila. I read a bit about other "hybrid" subway/ surface lines - Phila having a few (10, 11, 13, 34, 36 lines) which parallel the Market - Frankfort line underground then fan out into the west end of the city streets. Then there's the Green Line in Boston. Both of these systems have all low level platforms, even underground. Then there's San Francisco's MUNI system, which does have a combo of hi & low level platforms throughout their system. This has been "made to work" as it's a Legacy system pasted together from old subway & surface trolley lines. They have cars with both hi & low level doors. It sounds like this system is a Byzantine mess of confusing lines & stations, some hi level, some low, some both, leaving tourists / new / casual users very confused. They also had huge problems with new car procurement, the cars being too long, too heavy, etc. I'd think all those doors uses up passenger capacity too. Not ideal. MUNI sounds like it's about as incompetently managed as SEPTA. Literally everything they try to do gets FUBARED to the Nth degree. I have to wonder if the River Line expansion to Glassboro would simply pick up at the end of the current line at the Camden concert amphitheatre or would tie in elsewhere. I'll have to research that study if it's online . ..
I just found out the other day that on weekends, SEPTA only runs (very crowded) regional rail once every 2 hours on the paoli line. Even though my destination was literally next to a train station I had to take a bus that would take twice as long or wait 90+ minutes for the soonest train
i take the norristown, market-frankford, and wilmington-newark lines every single day to work. if they extend the train service to west chester i think i'd cry tears of joy because i'd be able to move back there again.
i know you mentioned it for like 3 seconds but an Allentown extension would be HUGE - the valley has about 800k - 1m people which is a ton - there's literally an ALREADY EXISTING row from landsdale to quakertown, the some of the rest of the row has been converted to a rail trail - driving from Allentown to Philly is just on the cusp of being an annoying hassle, but its also close enough to philly to be super sensible to include into septa honestly septa really should do an Allentown extension
Agreed, only having the AC line, patco and the riverline as the main rail lines in south jersey is not enough. more needs to be done to have southern new jersey to be connected by rail especially to communities that are further away from Philly like more remote or less populated parts of Cape May, Atlantic, Salem, and Cumberland Counties where public transit is either limited or non existant.
Septa Regional rail and lack of cheap parking in downtown Philly, actually prevented sprawl. Yes, compare Philly to the sprawl found in Orlando Florida or Phoenix Arizona. Orlando abandoned Commuter rail in the sixties. Exploding growth and sprawl made I-4 commuters go slowly crazy. Sun Rail was a throwdown. CSX decided to reroute rail traffic from inter-city to the R line. Sun Rail is a joy to commute and the tourists love it.
I think I read your position correlating expensive parking and sprawl by not saying what aspect of sprawl you mean. Orlando and Phoenix are entirely different cities both designed in modern times that are actually sprawling suburbs rather than cities. Philadelphia was chartered by the Crown in 1682 with William Penn probably having designed it long before. The city that he planned is now what is called Center City - you know - where all the tall buildings are with (once industrial) and residential neighborhoods sprawling around it which later incorporated such burrows as New York did. Today the need for work/office/living space is so great that skyscrapers are sprawling outside Penn's plan and being built taller than Billy Penn's hat, which has cased economic and quality-of-life issues on what you might be calling - sprawl. Now, the Philadelphia area is completely surrounded by millions of affluent people having automobiles that they bring into the city, many of which are too big for Philadelphia streets which should be charged an entrance fee for the likes of Escalades and Suburban's, every day to exploit rare parking spaces in my neighborhood and close by in town where they can more than afford to pay our parking prices and taxes - - only to leave at the end of the day to again clog the expressways like spoiled tourists.
Meanwhile in Pittsburgh! You have a two-line light rail system that only serves the downtown city and the "south hills" (formerly the rich area). Then there is one Amatrak station. That's it.
Having looked through the track layouts in Philadelphia, one of the biggest issues seems to be at-grade crossings between conflicting services. This would prevent SEPTA from running the super-high-frequency service through the central segment that you envision. In particular, there's a bottleneck in the junction between the Airport branch and the NEC. The tracks along the NEC are arranged as L/E/E/L (L=local, E=express), where the L lines are mostly used by SEPTA and the E lines are mostly used by Amtrak. But where the SEPTA services split off to head into the tunnel, the tracks are arranged as E/E/L/L. So eastbound SEPTA services have to cross both directions of Amtrak traffic at-grade. The Airport line can currently avoid this conflict by running eastbound on the (theoretically) westbound overpass over the NEC, but of course such a single track operation limits the line's frequency. Double-tracking this overpass would address conflicts between the two directions of Airport Line service, but wouldn't address the conflicts between the Airport line service and the Newark Line, nor the conflicts between the Newark Line and Amtrak. Long story short, what's needed is a flyover or flyunder to bring the eastbound NEC local track across the two express tracks, somewhere between the junctions for the Airport line and the city center tunnel. This would provide fully grade-separated routes for SEPTA trains, allowing for increased frequency and reliability on SEPTA and Amtrak alike.
I'm a Philly native currently studying abroad in Madrid. At worst, trains comes every 8-10 mins, but usually around 4 mins and I don't know the schedule, so that's nice
Thanks for your views on improving the commuter rail service. As noted in the video I had ridden the line to Newtown, Reading, and Bethlehem - Allentown. It was better than driving and was good to use in bad winter weather. One of the problems with the extensions is that Allentown-Bethlehem and Reading are outside the SEPTA service area and would need support and cooperation with the transit agencies in those areas. As for south Jersey added lines as noted many of the right of ways still exist but would require major upgrades to restore passenger service. While a tunnel from New Jersey to Philadelphia would be nice to provide a one seat ride into Philadelphia. It would add major costs to any effort to restore service. I rode the old PRSL RDC’s to Atlantic City, Ocean City, Wildwood and Cape May and at that time had to transfer to PATCO to get into Philadelphia. While it did make the ride less desirable than a one seat ride, many people did ride the old service. So it could start up without a direct connection to Philadelphia. As for the note the existing Atlantic City is slow using the Delair bridge I never considered it that bad. Yes there could be problems due to the bridge having to open or Amtrak conflicts at the northeast junction I generally did not experience any long delays. And once on the northeast trackage the train usually ran as fast as Amtrak intercity trains since there are no intermediate station stops on the way to 30th Street Station.
Imagine my disappointment as a college student in West Chester, just becoming more interested in using transit (especially having grown up in the main line using the R5 train), and realizing the Media/Elwyn line used to run all the way to West Chester and service would maybe be restored... in 2040. It's hard not to be sad about the trains we lost, but your videos give me optimism that rail transit can be restored to its former glory in the US
There was also an interurban trolley line that ran from West Chester to Upper Darby where passengers could change to the El. In the early 1950s the aptly-named PA Department of Highways took the ROW so that West Chester Pike could be widened for "modern, convenient" autos.
I visit friends in the area two or three times a year. As I continually tell them, you don't realize what a good public transit system you have. I take regional rail from Warminster into Center City, ride the subway to whatever destination is on for the day. A great thing about begin over 65 is that SEPTA is free. Woo hoo.
Just to clarify. Regional Rail for travel to/from stations located in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is Free. However it's Half Fare (50% of the Weekday Fare) for travel to/from New Jersey and the State of Delaware.
@@OldSchool-dr5ql They've also tightened restrictions. You used to be able to use a driver's license, PA senior ID card, etc. to ride. Now you need a special SEPTA Senior Key card. Try getting one of those in anything less than a couple of weeks.
Try getting a PATCO senior fare card. Last I looked you had to show up in person at Camden during a period of several hours on a Monday. Sounds like a Republican voter-registration system.
I`ve heard a rumour that MARC, the outfit that handles rail service in Maryland, is thinking about extending their Penn Line, which currently stops at Perryville, Maryland, all the way to Newark and Wilmington, Delaware......the thing about that is it would give riders in Washington, D.C. a chance to potentially travel all the way to NYC without using AMTRAK ,since SEPTA runs trains all the way to Wilmington and Newark in Delaware.
This would be pretty much how the majority of German regional services work. The end point of one system is the start of the next, so you can in theory traverse the entire country on regional rail. This obviously is rather pointless traveling from city center to city center, besides the lower cost. But, since these trains usually have spare capacity outside of rush hour, they introduced affordable group day passes valid after 9:00 and on weekends to encourage regional leisure travel on these services and it has been rather successful. In many cases you’re origin and/or destination won’t be the city center long distance stations, so by avoiding backtracking regional rail can become rather competitive, if not faster on some journeys, especially for people living further away from the main cities. In both my current and last city it’s faster to go to the state capitol by regional express train from my local station (mind you, a station within city limits), then by parallel non-stop high speed trains, because just by eliminating the need to go the central station they can make up their slower speeds and higher amount of stops. This obviously gets more attractive, the further people live outside the city. At a certain point backtracking just eats up all the time advantage you might have by using express/ highspeed services. And don’t tell me „oh, but the distances are soooo much longer“. We’re talking about the northeast corridor. The distance between DC-Baltimore-Wilmington-Philly-Trenton-NY isn’t that different from Karlsruhe-Stuttgart-Ulm-Augsburg-Munich. Both have a direct highspeed service at a little under 3h. But here in Germany the same trip can also be made by three regional trains in under 5h for 72€ for 5 people while the highspeed ICE will set you back around 60€ per person. Especially for people not traveling the entire route this can make the regional trains a viable option. And more demand means better service for people who live along the routes.
Newtown is my hometown, when my dad purchased our house back in the early 1980s, he was excited because the station was a short walk away. But alas, the station was closed not even a year after moving in :( Today a good portion of what remains of the line has been converted into a very pleasant and very long paved bike/pedestrian path with deep woods surrounding it, a perfect place for a mid autumn hike. Best part of this path is how it passes right by Bryn Athyn, with its glorious cathedral and museum.
I visited Lancaster a few September’s ago and I was baffled about how Septa didn’t serve the what should have been four track station (and it’s electrified!) this is a great vid and I agree with these points, even as a non Philly resident
There's a problem with restoring some of the lines, that being quite a bit of the unrestored lines (especially a large portion of the Fox Chase line) have been turned into parklands or demolished and built over. I can see a return of the media Elwyn trains going to west Chester though, and maybe a partial extension of the Warminster line. the LDL not all the way to Bethlehem but it can be extended to Quakertown.
Also to offer some constructive criticism, I think some more background would be nice, I appreciate Well There's You're Problem, but some additional explanation of what SEPTA's failing are and what good systems should look like would improve this I think.
They used to be. And Scranton to NYC via the Lackawanna Cutoff. That line is and has been looked at for full restoration. NJT has rebuilt some of that line in NJ, and Amtrak has it on their 2035 system map all the way to Scranton. Other proposals extend the line farther west, so this line still has attention. As for the Lehigh Valley, the SEPTA main line from Bethlehem to Philly still exists. Bucks county has been vocal in getting this line reactivated, and I'm hopeful Montgomery and the Lehigh/Northampton County area would support this. SEPTA still owns the track all the way up and through Hellertown, ending at the yard entrance. The rails exist from Philly to just short of a now-removed crossing on California Rd, located NW of Quakertown just north of Pumping Station Rd (near PA 309). North of Lansdale, the rails are in real bad shape, with 5 mph speed limits, so full replacement will be required the entire length, and arches added to install overhead catenary wire. No land acquisition would be needed, making the project that much cheaper. Money would be needed for the last couple miles through the yard. I don't know if the original bridge over the Lehigh River, or the terminal in Bethlehem still exist, or would have to be replaced.
@@dtvjho Not sure if the rails are still in place above Coopersburg. Good luck putting track back on the with the NIMBYs in $aucon Valley... On a positive note, No bridge over the Lehigh required. The Reading and SEPTA Philly/Allentown trains stopped at Union Station in South Bethlehem. Beautifully restored, used as medical offices. The ex-Lehigh Valley main line on the south side of the river is used to access Allentown Union Station (still there, but empty).
There's a wiki article about a tunnel proposed around the time the Ben opened. I'm not able to post a link, but the name of the article is New_Jersey_Route_44T
While speaking of proposed routes, the Roosevelt Subway comes to mind. An article on the Broad St Subway may be needed, as the original engineers in the 1920s put in 3 provisions for extensions. One in south Philly, one just north of Erie for Roosevelt Blvd, and a 3rd north of Olney meant to go up Stenton Ave. The Roosevelt line consistently sits at the top of the federal DOT's list of new starts that would bring in the most ridership, and separately the City has proposed sinking the two inner drives to convert them to an extension of the US 1 expressway in Bucks. No one has tried to combine the two, but with the Boulevard's 300ft right of way and configuration of 4 roadways (each 3 lanes wide), if the two inner roadways can become the expressway, the 4-track subway can be split so that 2 northbound tracks get placed under the northbound local roadway, and do the same on the southbound side. The entire project needs to run the entire length of Northeast Philly and terminate at the Neshaminy Mall so the Turnpike and Street Road (PA 132) can both be tied in (park and ride).
I'm from Glassboro - hyper familiar with that station. My grandfather used to say that you could hop on a train in Pitman and go anywhere in the United States. It's a tragedy what we've done to this landmark infrastructure. I'm glad that the States are starting to realize this and make changes. Trains are not antiquated, they're a beautiful middle ground between the cost of planes and the freedom of cars. Just moved down to Tennessee and experienced the immense underwhelming nature of the Music City Star - it's due for a major upgrade.
having grown up in Levittown, my first response to the start of this video was: "Where the hell's his accent?" this elicited an automatic retort: "Jay, where's /your/ accent?" the scars I've been left with seem largely to be emotional. that makes me feel as happy as the delaware valley's leading news program
The Pennsylnavia used to run down the high line from Arsenal for the Army-Navy games. Poking around on the internet will find old pictures of the trains in South Philly. Much more built up down there now, but not an impossible venture. Would also love to see the addition of some suburban ‘radial’ lines to run east-west and connect the spokes. Annoying to have to go all the way into town to go 10 miles west. Unlikely to ever happen as it would be horribly expensive - but we were dreaming anyway…
14:02 - The old trains of South Jersey never used the Delair Bridge to Philadelphia. The trains of South Jersey terminated at a ferry in Camden, after passing through Camden on a 'wall'. Either catch a ferry or transfer to the Ben Franklin bridge line at Broadway.
Interesting. I heard the Market-Frankford had a spur past the 2nd St station that went a bit south on Penns Landing for that ferry. It was ripped out in the 1950s.
Loved the video. I can't explain how much time I have spent thinking about the same thing for North East Ohio. Crazy what we used to have and now I would be excited for anything that creates an option to not drive.
I watched a few of your videos but this one made me subscribe. I live along the Bethlehem branch and there are two problems that prevent it from being restored to Bethlehem. The first is that the line is cut past Quakertown is no longer a right of way. The second is the c Perkasie tunnel.
The Perkasie tunnel is in bad shape it needs to be religned. It is also single tracked and cannot be easily double tracked. Widening the tunnel would require blasting and as they have now built a development over there tunnel I doubt that they would be allowed to blast.
As someone who’s lived in the Lehigh valley my whole life, I’ve been wanting restoration of regional rail line to allentown for a while. I live close to the bucks county line, so anytime I go to the city I drive down to colmar to catch a train. Last time my friends and I met up in Philly, it was the weekend, and by the time we parted ways, it was an hour wait for the next train on the lansdale/doylestown line. But of course that next train didn’t go beyond lansdale, so I had to wait another hour to catch a train back to colmar. So agreed that frequency could be improved. Thankfully it was free comic book day so I had a lot to keep me occupied while I waited lol
12:20 You have an eagle eye! I also noticed how no R-numbered routes ran into NJ over the Delair Bridge. Even SEPTA itself doesn't run services into NJ, except for the R7's terminus in Trenton. That alone needs to change, and that requires changes to PA laws to change SEPTA's board. (SEPTA dropped the R-numbers a few years ago but that didn't happen without criticism.) You noticed the lack of infrastructure in south Jersey?? That's been ongoing for over 60 years. North Jersey has long received the benefits and south Jersey feels neglected. Even NJ route 55 still hasn't been extended to the Jersey Shore, in spite of strong support from SJ counties and state legislators for decades. North Jersey keeps voting itself the money. In the 1980s SJ even thought of seceding from the north, it was that bad. 12:48 Yup, NJ's connection to each big city is just 2 tracks. We should be looking at a modern 6-track tunnel for NYC and 4 into Philly. Again politics, not a lack of money, keeps the antiques running. 16:19 That is the first time I've seen a tunnel proposal in that area, and I believe it would work! The only tunnels I've heard proposed would extend the Broad St Subway south under the river to National Park NJ, which is rural and not close to the population centers on the NJ side - your tunnel is perfectly situated!
You pointed out the two things that I knew was a problem with this 😊 High fares fairs and low-frequency They have a downtown tunnel and 100% electrification. Changing the two above things could basically turn it in to what the Germans see has an S-Bohn, and what I see as a short distance commuter rail that acts like a Metro in the downtown
The idea about the service to stadiums and navy yard with the CSX/SEPTA is pure genius! Because SEPTA keeps talking about extending the (orange line) subway from patterson Ave to the navy yard by extending the tunnel. Which is very expensive. About two miles of
Which is about two miles of drilling and wasted money. When already have an excellent infrastructure in place already. You just add some catenary wire, couple stations offer fast regular service from naval center city on a daily basis and express when the stadium have games and concerts. Imagine fast regional rail service from south Philly to center city to connect to wherever you need to go! You should send your idea to SEPTA ASPA!
I live in Newtown and I can tell you that restoring SEPTA service to here after 40 years would be revolutionary to the town. Right now Newtown residents have to drive down to Woodbourne station if they want to take the train into the city. Sadly I don't think the Newtown line will ever be restored; even though Newtown, Holland, Southampton, and Churchville all want it, places further down the line are blocking it, and portions of the route are already being converted into rail trails and the like.
it makes the most sense- giving rail access to philly , less cars on the roads -an extra way for people to get home when they close a line for weather- -and running electric as well
These are good ideas but the Center City Commuter Tunnel could not handle all these rail improvements. It been a known issue ttat the commuter tunnel is a choke point on the system. And makes it really hard for system expansion. Especially if you add a South Jersey rail system to the mix.
The tunnel itself can handle plenty of trains with upgraded signalling, but the issue that there are too many at-grade conflicts between trains on either end of the tunnel. There need to be more grade-separated junctions in order to physically run S-Bahn levels of service.
I've been through that tunnel myself and I see what you mean especially since its a meeting point for all the lines on the regional rail so tons of bottlenecking. I dont really think a tunnel is essential for the delaware river like which was pointed out in this video but perhaps another bridge built near where the Delair bridge or replacing it entirely with more tracks. From there, a few other stops especially the north philadelphia stop or one stopping at girard ave and serving the philadelphia zoo or faimount park. just my perspective on this idea.
stumbled upon your channel out of nowhere, and given your subscriber count it seems like the algorithm has given you a jump. really good content, keep it up.
Loved the reference to Wawa and the new station... But oddly you did get one detail wrong.... There IS a Wawa at the new station and it may have played a serious roll in getting the political Wii to build that station. You see behind the trees in the artists rendition, maybe 2/10s mile walk away is Wawa the convince store corporate offices. And I know they have been interested in getting that station setup as a way to attract more young urban workers from Philly. Having a train stop so close to the office is definitely a plus.
Amazing video. When I travel to Philadelphia, I drive from the Lehigh Valley to Colmar station. It would really be wonderful to take a train to Philadelphia from Bethlehem.
i remember my first time on the train from septa. they accidently forgot to switch the track and went the wrong way. the power went out and sat in the dark for like 30 minutes.
Little known fact, there is a station that never came to be under the Ben Franklin Bridge's Philly side, for trollies though, but that could work as a station
The Atlantic City Line was once an inter city rail line operated by Amtrak but that was a failure. That's why NJ Transit re-established it as a commuter rail line.
I remember when my sister lived in hatboro and my nephew was sick. I didn't have a car and had to depend on the regional rail. It was mainly hit and miss.
As a train commuter for the past twelve years I could go on and on about improvements but I’d settle for trains more often than once an hour and refunds for when trains are cancelled or late. Either way it’s still better than sitting on 95 or the schuylkill expressway every day.
There are a lot of thought provoking ideas here. The two I like best are: 1) increased trains; 2) extending the Norristown line and others. Running more trains wouldn't cost much, and it would generate more ridership. I and others don't use public transit simply because it's NOT CONVENIENT! Even if it goes where I want to, it oftentimes doesn't go when I want to. As for expanding the system, I'd say extending the Norristown and other electric lines would be easiest and cheapest to do.; as you pointed out, many of the catenary poles are still there.
I lived on Astor Street adjacent to the end of the Norristown line. Used to take it to Philly for the Thanksgiving parade and my favorite part was honestly looking at all of the decaying railroads and rail loading docks along the Norristown line. Would love to see the line extended again. It's just a too bad a ton of these closed rails are being pulled up, passenger or commercial.
You are right about out-of-date but the system works and probably better than most, as you will see how a world-class city shines while having so little. I am glad to see somebody seeking something of Philadelphia than relating to a fake boxer. So cityplanner - what city have you planned?
Hey Alan. Recently found your channel and have been thoroughly enjoying the content. Keep up the great work! Have a request: when/if you have time, can you please make a video on the decline of WMATA (the DC metro), especially Metrorail? Having lived in northern Virginia for about 8 years, it is baffling and infuriating how bad the public transit system is around here. I've regularly travelled to Philly, NYC and Chicago over the years, and despite their own shortcomings, these cities are miles ahead of what passes for a subway system here in the nation's capital.
Great points Re tunnel connections! The stadium line is a no brainer though. Where I’m from in Australia, we have a 5 year old stadium. It was designed with heavy rail in mind to move 80% of the spectators. A massive 8 platform station was built with high capacity signaling. There is very limited parking lots and any that are there, are purposely expensive. It’s designed to move 40,000 people within 45 minutes after the finish of the game. Trains are then sent onto dedicated platforms for different lines. No need to change trains in the CBD either.
I've been stewing over many things that would benefit that area. One of the things that has been on my mind, in particular, was separating SEPTA and Amtrak lines between Wilmington, Overbrook and Holmesburg Junction. Like how roadways can concur except there are designated sides between SEPTA Local lines and Amtrak (+NJT) intercity lines. Between those areas, it seems inefficient with all the interlocking that has to happen in order for SEPTA to work its way to and from the outer tracks within the city. If they were separate there, lines such as Chestnut Hill West, Airport, and Cynwyd Lines can deal with interlocking and not interfere with Amtrak's operations when joining up with the main lines. Considering the spaghetti trackage that either consist of flyovers and switches at Holmes, Zoo, Arsenal, Overbrook, and Holly Interlockings where trains enter, leave, cross over, or terminate.
I totally agree with you that there needs to be better frequency to the regional rail system. I think that the biggest issue preventing that from happening comes from the Federal Railroad Administration. That being that the FRA's rulebooks have failed to keep up with the needs of heavy-rail passenger services across the US, especially for those that operate on non-freight right of ways. I think that the FRA's books need to be tossed out the window and brought up to the 21st century, not the mid 20th.
I like this video about Philadelphia and South Jersey rail services. Lets see if their is a solution to fix these rail services including the Cape May rail line.
Very interesting, but I want to highlight that you have under Small Fixes: go from 1tph to 3-4+tph. Tripling/quadrupling the number of trains you have on a line would be a massive and costly undertaking.
Yeah I've gotten multiple comments on this. I assume if something like this ever did happen they'd either make more adjacent tracks or stub tracks into Jefferson station and not continue to 30th Street.
@@alanthefisher Suburban station has 8 tracks, so if the link to Market East were ever expanded, SEPTA could build 2 more tracks on the north side and have immediate tie-ins at Suburban.
Septa owns the line, the West Chester Railroad leases it, the New Hope and Ivyland owns the line from New Hope to Warminster. The Fox Chase line would have issues because there are buildings and such in the way for the right of way to even get out of Fox Chase, other than that great video!
Actually the fox chase line ROW still exists as single track all the way into Newtown. Of course tracks are largely gone, & many grade crossings and dilapidated bridges are cost prohibitive.
I always wondered if Atlantic City could be re-fitted from gambling to an inter-modal ship / rail / truck industry...ROW's could be adapted for container freight, and NJ could bypass the shared Port Authority and flip off NY's cut of the action. But environmentalist's eyes would start twitching and they'd have a conniption if "dredging" is uttered.
German train (S-Bahn) operator here: I kinda laughed at the quote at 4:44. I thought our S-Bahn system is kinda dumb because we have some lines on wich trains arrive in 30 minute intervals outside of the city center. (at least in cities like Frankfurt/Main and Stuttgart wich do not even have a million inhabitants) But I looked up the population of Philadelphia. You have 1,5 million people living there? Unbelievable!
This is what was left after the really, really dark era that was the 1950s-1980s for US public transportation systems. In some cities much worse stuff happened, like the complete end of all commuter rail services, owing to non-viability. But increasingly, this is beginning to be reversed. Unfortunately, in the US, we are out of practice when it comes to building things cost-efficiently and reasonably close to schedule. But we are building out more networks, bit by bit, because it is what people want. People are not learning to drive and often do not trust autonomous cars, and are too cheap for cars anyway.
The warminster extended to...Delaware? It does already, that's the Newark/Marcus Hook line? Also, the issue with restoring service is that the WaWa project costs hundreds of millions for all of a couple miles. They also replaced all the catenary in the process.
So i like this but me working at csx will tell you that they wont allow the extension into south philly. Intermodal is about to expand and they’re getting autoracks soon. So more volume. Also conrail is still active and owns the high line which allows the NS to come down to delaware from abrams in KOP. I like the idea but the port expanding and more car imports means its gonna be unlikely
A lot of the small fixes are already in the works, and some of the larger fixes might actually be in the works, too. But the biggest of all might need some political persuasion.
What is the elevated station shown between 4:38 and 5:31? It is the first time I've seen a vertical curve (implying a non-level surface) on a major elevated station. Also, what are the grades on either side of the vertical curve? The only other major station I know has a vertical curve and non-level surface is the Pennsylvania Station in New York. It has a vertical curve in the center right under Madison Square Garden with grades of +/-0.4% on either side.
Tbh I wasn't aware of that. But I still wonder when septa re-expanses all the way to West Chester will they just exist together? Or will the WCRR have to move?
@@alanthefisher I grew up in Philly and worked for septa RRD for 8 years as an engineer, I can safely say septa will never go to west chester ago. Back in 2000 when I first hired there, they been talking about going to wawa and 20 years later, the tracks still haven't been extended 3 miles to wawa.
@@ghostengineer Thanks for the information, and that's really neat that you where an engineer for septa! I know its hard to believe, but they have made progress rebuilding the wawa extension. I do agree with you that it will take awhile before any thought of rebuilding the rest of the tracks to West Chester happen. Here's a video of the recent construction at the new Wawa station: th-cam.com/video/G4vWU7jypEw/w-d-xo.html
You need to look at Thameslink in the UK to see how regional transport works. I'm 25 miles North of London, trains into the City of London every 7 minutes, dual voltage 25KAC overhead and 750VDC 3rd. rail South of the River.
About time
I've been looking forward to this moment
Union shill
That potential train map for South NJ covered all the towns I've ever lived in...I can't even imagine how awesome that would be...and how much less traffic there would be, like holy crap. Car companies are why we can't have nice things!
Can you IMAGINE if all the shore traffic was in trains instead? NJT plz
... And we now needlessly must forget about that! What you are proposing is now impossible (no collective willpower left; too strongly addicted to 'pettifoggingly-'inefficient urban/sub-regional bus transportation or, preferably, over-the-expressway car transportation; *and,* disgustingly, not even a *thought* from anyone to simply improve all of the PATCO High-Speed Line so that it and existing tracks on and entire deck of the Benjamin Franklin Bridge will very supportively accommodate any 'heavy' or regular Diesel-locomotive-hauled and/or single-coach 'Doodlebug' and DMU trains as well as third-rail-dependent electric trains like those in use on all three of MTA of New York's and the New York City Transit Authority's rail systems - NYCTA (subways and the elevated, intermediate-type Staten Island Railway), Long Island Railroad, and Metro-North - as well as any Washington, DC Metrorail type suburban and urban subway and elevated-subway trains *and* PATCO's still-currently-running trains... AND to then consider extending the PATCO Line's tunnel from its current Fifteenth Street off Walnut, Philadelphia, terminus to CSX Transportation's yards alongside the Schuylkill River, from which all train traffic would head north into Fairmount Park in order to use CSX's Baltimore and Ohio Railroad- bequeathed Columbia Bridge across the river in order to use the formerly multiple-carrier (defunct Reading, Baltimore and Ohio, ultimate successor CSX, now-likewise-defunct Conrail, and Norfolk Southern)-shared track within the western side of the park in order to continue en route to Thirtieth Street Station and, accordingly, its extant Amtrak''and SEPTA services there )!
Not only car companies, but the fifties. Many countries built like crazy after WW2, but most realized it's not sustainable and changed their course.
Enter the US, which doesn't seem to have a plan what to do with the sprawl it created in 1950's.
? we cant have nice things in philly because its a Ghetto Shithole ...how bout the Girl who was raped on a El car (chicken bone express) noone called 911 they jus filmed it
Car companies aren't the problem; neoconservatives are. If you aren't willing to vote like you should, and you don't vote enough (or you sabotage good POTUS's like Barack Obama) said neocons will always be running things in the United States and pushing for car centred solutions.
As a native Philadelphian, I’m eager to hear your thoughts…12 seconds in and I’m already pleased with the channel 6 entry tune, remind me of days with my Grand 😀😀😀
reminds me of my grandparents too! first thing i thought of when it started playing :-)
The intro was a part of my childhood
Omg the Channel 6 tune brings me back
Move closer to your world, indeed.
The action news channel 6 theme.
Interesting. Not only am I a life-long railroad enthusiast, I also was an Amtrak OBS employee in the corridor in the '80s and '90s, and then a CSX T&E employee out of Baltimore in the '00s. I was very familiar with the Atlantic City service, having worked the Amtrak version of it for the last 3 1/2 years they operated it. I also was a qualified CSX conductor and engineer on the Philly and Trenton Lines, and down to S. Philly yard. I could see the possibilities and problems with what you propose. Needing truckloads of money would just be the beginning. Before the '08 crash and the current pandemic, the High Line was kind of a bottleneck for CSX and NS, which also uses it to access their rights into S. Philly. The bridge to S. Philly that is single-tracked over the Schuylkill River, would have to at least be extensively rebuilt, perhaps totally replaced, to allow for multiple tracks. I know I used to spend hours sitting at the end of the double-track at the south end of the bridge waiting to get across and down the road to Baltimore. Surprisingly, this stretch of railroad, from where the High Line cuts off of the former Reading on the North end to near where it joins the CSX Philly Sub near 58th St., and down to Broad St. on the S. Philly branch still has an operating cab signal system. Also, there is no longer any physical connection between the High Line and any other rail line at Zoo Interlocking. Extensive, but not impossible work would be needed.
Thanks for the insight. I thought that the highlight was alittle redundant, mainly because of the tracks paralleling the Schuylkill River on the opposite side with the tunnel under the art museum, but I guess that it would be hard to leave the yard and to head south from there without the highline.
And regarding using it for transit, I honestly need to make another Philly video and include a caveat about the highline saying that it would probably be better used for a light rail or metro type train that would be physically lighter, mainly because of the age of the bridge.
Nobody expects to have such plans done in 10 years. That doesn't happen , even in Asia.
Thing is, the US needs to at least have a plan…
Another reason the Atlantic City line didn't work is that they put the station in Bum***k Nowhere. Not the beach, not the hotels, not the casinos. It's in an industrial wasteland. PRSL went a lot closer to where people wanted to go. AC has a real crime problem. I hiked it a couple times; I'd say it's about a mile to the boardwalk. But I wouldn't do it after dark. Yeah, I know there's some kind of bus connection, but studies have shown that if you force an en route transfer, your ridership decreases by HALF.
As someone who grew up in Reading, we've been waiting for a rail line to Philly forever. Lancaster had a line to Philly put in and it did wonders for the city (Lancaster, that is)
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I grew up in Phila in the 60's / 70's, lived in Wissinoming, then Fox Chase, then Rydal. Rode the Newtown line when it was still active. Got a degree in Civil Engineering in the early 80's, moved to CT, & worked extensively for decades on the commuter & intercity systems there (Metro-North, Amtrak, & CT's own startup services). So with that background, here are some thoughts:
SEPTA is indeed a broken system. My CT job focused on maintenance facilities (when I started in the mid '80's, CT had basically none, we have built & are building several first class complexes, mainly in New Haven, which is now a locus for CT's commuter rail system). During early stages of development, we, honestly, had no fucking idea what we were doing. We were basically a start up, & I was a young train nerd ("foamer"). We went on extensive field trips to other agencies throughout the northeast (MBTA Boston, Metro-North Hudson/Harmon lines, LIRR, NJTransit, & SEPTA) to look at their maintenance facilities - shops, yards, specialized facilities like wheel mills & car washes. I can say, unequivocally, that SEPTA was literally the type of system you'd expect to see in a 3rd world country, in terms of infrastructure, management, employee training, & morale. Like, a half century behind anywhere else.
Since retirement 4 yrs ago, I travel between CT & Phila to visit friends/ relatives quite a bit, & being a cheapskate & train buff, I take all the various commuter lines rather than Amtrak. So I transfer NJTransit to SEPTA in Trenton. Again, that is literally like stepping into another era / world.
So here are my thoughts on SEPTA's initial problems:
- LACK OF HIGH LEVEL PLATFORMS ON THE FORMER READING LINES!!!!!!!! This is Elementary. The Trenton line is the worst. You have many many elderly folks using this line, & they have to climb the steep slippery stairs. It's like loading a cattle car. Each stop takes FOREVER!!!! Most of the stations are just a slab of pavement next to the track. This is the NE Corridor. This is entirely UNACCEPTABLE!!!! I know other lines like the West Trenton, where I grew up, STILL don't have high level platforms too. There aren't very many systems in the northeast that don't. We prioritized that in CT & now only 1 minor branch still has low platforms (Waterbury). Low level platforms are also labor intensive (need conductors at each doorway to raise/lower the stairs, help people on), & dangerous (I bet SEPTA gets sued for "slip & fall" all the fuckin' time). It's especially vexing when a line has both types (there are a few newer stations on the Trenton line w/high level platforms).
- LACK OF RESTROOMS ON THE TRAINS!!!!!!! You will never be able to extend any of the lines until your trains have toilets. Now yes, this requires increased infrastructure - toilet dump stations in the yards (we actually designed a model system since adopted by other railroads - yes Shit is my Claim to Fame as an engineer). But it's sure better than the reek of urine prevalent on the train cars from fucked up drunks & junkies who literally whip it out & pee in public right on the floor (I've seen this many times). Not to mention the urine soaked nightmare the downtown tunnel stations are.
- LACK OF MAINTENANCE / ALLOWING STATIONS TO TURN INTO HOMELESS ENCAMPMENTS!!!! You want people to feel safe & clean in order to encourage usage. The 3 downtown stations are just an absolute nightmare. I'm a big guy & I feel threatened walking through any of them. Yes, I know, homelessness is a tragedy & deserves "harm reduction" measures to address, that's a separate topic. It's something that NYC & Boston have done well, to keep their big downtown stations from becoming urine soaked mad max dungeons. Phila/SEPTA = EPIC FAIL!!!
- CENTER DOORS ON FUTURE TRAIN SET PURCHASES!!!!! - This goes with high level platforms. End doors are set up for low platforms with stairs & they are steep & narrow, taking forever for passenger loading/unloading. This is another "Third World" situation. Some agencies have both (NJ Transit). I don't know why SEPTA doesn't. Utter Incompetence ?!?!?
My thoughts on enhancements:
I'm not in favor of your South Jersey proposal. For a tunnel ALL those lines you proposed would have to be electrified. Plus a 3-way junction tying in at Jefferson? I guess? Way too Expensive. You already have PATCO & River Line. S Jersey just doesn't have the population density to justify this. Instead, I'd do these: The Atlantic City Line should stop at North Philadelphia, to provide better transfer opportunities to SEPTA system, & expand service (right now it's really only am & pm peaks, mid day there's 1 train). North Phila station is another crime infested hell hole that needs better policing for this to work, & needs better ped access to adjacent W Trenton branch station, which would benefit Atl City line patrons. Expand the PATCO line, add branches, & improve transfers to River line - The Camden transfer is another place you have to run an obstacle course of crackheads & junkies as you walk down long corridors dodging piles of human shit, then try to avoid getting your wallet ripped out of your hands as you try to pay for your fare in a hopelessly outdated fare system. The new Pennsauken station between River Line & Atl City Line at the Del Riv bridge is a nice feature I use all the time.
I also don't see the point in the "high line". The Broad St subway line already provides this access. That old High Line bridge is probably way beyond it's service life. & if you think century old catenary structures are still good, well, ha ha ha ha!!!!! Making a high level station at 30th St. that's ADA compliant - yeah, good luck! I guess it could be done as a light rail type system as it wouldn't have to tie to the rest of the system. Or you could do street level light rail to serve all those areas.
I would also not bring back Newtown service. Like south Jersey, it just doesn't run thru dense enough population areas. It was also never electrified, so there's got to be bridges that would need to be raised (or track bed lowered). Also way too many grade crossings/ curves & not enough passing sidings - that was always a low speed operation.
I would definitely add service to the old line to Reading. Many large communities along it that are not served (Phoenixville, etc). Some other lines could be extended farther north/ west into areas where exurbs have developed since the 70's. This is already too long, not gonna try to get into all of them.
I would add service on the old West Trenton Bypass (freight only line that roughly parallels PA Turnpike), an east-west route which crosses many north-south routes. This would provide a leg of a "ring" service to encourage inter-suburbs commuting. This could even be done w/o electrification since it wouldn't pass thru the center city tunnels.
OK that's it. I will say Phila has a HUGE advantage over Boston in having completed the center city tunnel linking both systems. Boston has 2 separate systems & will never be able to connect them thru downtown, the "Big Dig" highway project literally Cock Blocked any possibility of that ever happening.
& Oh Yeah you Got Me with the old school Action News intro music at the beginning. "Move closer to your world my friend". Made me nostalgic for the "Fresh Fuckin' Pressels" they hawked at concerts when we took the Broad St subway to the old Spectrum (we named "The Rectum")
Great info and insights, I agree with most things that you've said too. And regarding the South jersey tunnel, that was mainly a "what if" regarding truly miracle levels of funding.
@@alanthefisher Sure. My Engineer brain kicked in = "if I had that much money here's all the other things I could do with it that I think are more beneficial"
@@alanthefisher Oh here's an idea I thought of today:
How about expanding the River Line (much cheaper / easier / more versatile than expanding PATCO), then tying the River Line tracks directly into the PATCO line where it crosses the Ben Franklin Bridge, so both services could provide direct service into Phila? I believe the 2 track system on the bridge / Phila side has extra capacity, it was originally built for a multi - branch trolley system that served greater Camden. There are abandoned tunnels in Phila that could be renewed into add'l staging sidings for add'l train sets. I'd think only 1 set of 2 tracks in each direction tying in from the south would be needed as most expansion would be to the south (Glassboro / Vineland). Of course there are challenges:
New River Line vehicles purchased for the expansion would have to be dual powered (Diesel & DC 3rd rail). Metro-North already runs diesel/DC hybrids like this on the Harmon & Hudson lines into Grand Central. They are engines pulling dead coaches but I'm pretty sure the same tech could be made to work on trolley vehicles. They would have to be up to full FRA crash test standards to run on same tracks as the PATCO heavy rail vehicles (I believe this was a big issue for the existing River Line, & a compromise of some sort was worked out separating freight traffic from the lighter diesel trolleys).
& of course the physical connection would be difficult but short & probably not insurmountable. The trolley vehicles can turn sharp horizontal & vertical curve radii, much like the Green Line in Boston. Far cheaper than an entire new tunnel system under the river. I did check, both systems are standard gauge (that would be a deal breaker, I know the "Market-Frankfort El"/"Broadway Subway" system isn't standard - maybe 5'-0"?). The tie in could possibly happen just outside Camden. I have to look at Google Maps . . .
A vastly improved pedestrian connection between the 2 systems in downtown Camden is still needed. Only a limited number of trains would feed directly into downtown Phila, as much as spare capacity allows. This is not much different than NJ Transit, where less than half their trains terminate directly into Penn Station NY, due to capacity limits of the Hudson Tunnels.
I'd say light rail service is more appropriate for the population densities of South Jersey, & could get way more "Bang for the Buck" with more branches serving more areas. Of course the capacity limit of the system going into Phila will cap that.
Thought about this a little more & did some research. Both systems (PATCO & River Line) actually parallel each other for a few blocks in downtown Camden (albeit PATCO in a tunnel & River Line on the surface) - probably not the ideal location for crossovers but . . .
A major sticking point is probably hi level (PATCO) vs low level (River Line) platforms. It would be difficult to accommodate low level River Line trains in hi level PATCO tunnels in Phila. I read a bit about other "hybrid" subway/ surface lines - Phila having a few (10, 11, 13, 34, 36 lines) which parallel the Market - Frankfort line underground then fan out into the west end of the city streets. Then there's the Green Line in Boston. Both of these systems have all low level platforms, even underground. Then there's San Francisco's MUNI system, which does have a combo of hi & low level platforms throughout their system. This has been "made to work" as it's a Legacy system pasted together from old subway & surface trolley lines. They have cars with both hi & low level doors. It sounds like this system is a Byzantine mess of confusing lines & stations, some hi level, some low, some both, leaving tourists / new / casual users very confused. They also had huge problems with new car procurement, the cars being too long, too heavy, etc. I'd think all those doors uses up passenger capacity too. Not ideal. MUNI sounds like it's about as incompetently managed as SEPTA. Literally everything they try to do gets FUBARED to the Nth degree.
I have to wonder if the River Line expansion to Glassboro would simply pick up at the end of the current line at the Camden concert amphitheatre or would tie in elsewhere. I'll have to research that study if it's online . ..
I just found out the other day that on weekends, SEPTA only runs (very crowded) regional rail once every 2 hours on the paoli line. Even though my destination was literally next to a train station I had to take a bus that would take twice as long or wait 90+ minutes for the soonest train
Same for the Warminster/Airport line!..SEPTA get it together!
That's crazy because my Metro North stop has trains stopping a few minutes.
They need more funding for that. @@bobsdaughter2594
i take the norristown, market-frankford, and wilmington-newark lines every single day to work. if they extend the train service to west chester i think i'd cry tears of joy because i'd be able to move back there again.
That is already basically done. Elwyn line has been extended and been being worked on for the past two years or so
i know you mentioned it for like 3 seconds but an Allentown extension would be HUGE
- the valley has about 800k - 1m people which is a ton
- there's literally an ALREADY EXISTING row from landsdale to quakertown, the some of the rest of the row has been converted to a rail trail
- driving from Allentown to Philly is just on the cusp of being an annoying hassle, but its also close enough to philly to be super sensible to include into septa
honestly septa really should do an Allentown extension
Not going to happen
It's great to know that I'm not the only one who's interested in south jersey rail improvements! Hopefully we can get this project moving soon!
Agreed, only having the AC line, patco and the riverline as the main rail lines in south jersey is not enough. more needs to be done to have southern new jersey to be connected by rail especially to communities that are further away from Philly like more remote or less populated parts of Cape May, Atlantic, Salem, and Cumberland Counties where public transit is either limited or non existant.
“And if that don’t work… use more tunnel.“
I see you Alan. MEDIC!!!
The best change would be to go to Allentown. Thats where all the commuters go.
Septa Regional rail and lack of cheap parking in downtown Philly, actually prevented sprawl. Yes, compare Philly to the sprawl found in Orlando Florida or Phoenix Arizona. Orlando abandoned Commuter rail in the sixties. Exploding growth and sprawl made I-4 commuters go slowly crazy. Sun Rail was a throwdown. CSX decided to reroute rail traffic from inter-city to the R line. Sun Rail is a joy to commute and the tourists love it.
I think I read your position correlating expensive parking and sprawl by not saying what aspect of sprawl you mean. Orlando and Phoenix are entirely different cities both designed in modern times that are actually sprawling suburbs rather than cities. Philadelphia was chartered by the Crown in 1682 with William Penn probably having designed it long before. The city that he planned is now what is called Center City - you know - where all the tall buildings are with (once industrial) and residential neighborhoods sprawling around it which later incorporated such burrows as New York did. Today the need for work/office/living space is so great that skyscrapers are sprawling outside Penn's plan and being built taller than Billy Penn's hat, which has cased economic and quality-of-life issues on what you might be calling - sprawl. Now, the Philadelphia area is completely surrounded by millions of affluent people having automobiles that they bring into the city, many of which are too big for Philadelphia streets which should be charged an entrance fee for the likes of Escalades and Suburban's, every day to exploit rare parking spaces in my neighborhood and close by in town where they can more than afford to pay our parking prices and taxes - - only to leave at the end of the day to again clog the expressways like spoiled tourists.
I live in Center City and I was born and raised in Philly so I definitely need to see this
Meanwhile in Pittsburgh! You have a two-line light rail system that only serves the downtown city and the "south hills" (formerly the rich area). Then there is one Amatrak station. That's it.
I’m from South Jersey. You are 100% right we are lacking transit options. The best (only) way to Philly now is to drive to Woodcrest and take PATCO.
Having looked through the track layouts in Philadelphia, one of the biggest issues seems to be at-grade crossings between conflicting services. This would prevent SEPTA from running the super-high-frequency service through the central segment that you envision. In particular, there's a bottleneck in the junction between the Airport branch and the NEC.
The tracks along the NEC are arranged as L/E/E/L (L=local, E=express), where the L lines are mostly used by SEPTA and the E lines are mostly used by Amtrak. But where the SEPTA services split off to head into the tunnel, the tracks are arranged as E/E/L/L. So eastbound SEPTA services have to cross both directions of Amtrak traffic at-grade. The Airport line can currently avoid this conflict by running eastbound on the (theoretically) westbound overpass over the NEC, but of course such a single track operation limits the line's frequency. Double-tracking this overpass would address conflicts between the two directions of Airport Line service, but wouldn't address the conflicts between the Airport line service and the Newark Line, nor the conflicts between the Newark Line and Amtrak.
Long story short, what's needed is a flyover or flyunder to bring the eastbound NEC local track across the two express tracks, somewhere between the junctions for the Airport line and the city center tunnel. This would provide fully grade-separated routes for SEPTA trains, allowing for increased frequency and reliability on SEPTA and Amtrak alike.
LOVE the use of the Action News opening! The soundtrack of my childhood! … & the Mummers string band music! Love it!
I'm a Philly native currently studying abroad in Madrid. At worst, trains comes every 8-10 mins, but usually around 4 mins and I don't know the schedule, so that's nice
Thanks for your views on improving the commuter rail service. As noted in the video I had ridden the line to Newtown, Reading, and Bethlehem - Allentown. It was better than driving and was good to use in bad winter weather. One of the problems with the extensions is that Allentown-Bethlehem and Reading are outside the SEPTA service area and would need support and cooperation with the transit agencies in those areas. As for south Jersey added lines as noted many of the right of ways still exist but would require major upgrades to restore passenger service. While a tunnel from New Jersey to Philadelphia would be nice to provide a one seat ride into Philadelphia. It would add major costs to any effort to restore service. I rode the old PRSL RDC’s to Atlantic City, Ocean City, Wildwood and Cape May and at that time had to transfer to PATCO to get into Philadelphia. While it did make the ride less desirable than a one seat ride, many people did ride the old service. So it could start up without a direct connection to Philadelphia. As for the note the existing Atlantic City is slow using the Delair bridge I never considered it that bad. Yes there could be problems due to the bridge having to open or Amtrak conflicts at the northeast junction I generally did not experience any long delays. And once on the northeast trackage the train usually ran as fast as Amtrak intercity trains since there are no intermediate station stops on the way to 30th Street Station.
yes
Imagine my disappointment as a college student in West Chester, just becoming more interested in using transit (especially having grown up in the main line using the R5 train), and realizing the Media/Elwyn line used to run all the way to West Chester and service would maybe be restored... in 2040. It's hard not to be sad about the trains we lost, but your videos give me optimism that rail transit can be restored to its former glory in the US
There was also an interurban trolley line that ran from West Chester to Upper Darby where passengers could change to the El. In the early 1950s the aptly-named PA Department of Highways took the ROW so that West Chester Pike could be widened for "modern, convenient" autos.
As a Pats fan that "Philly Special" part hurt lmao. But great video!
I visit friends in the area two or three times a year. As I continually tell them, you don't realize what a good public transit system you have. I take regional rail from Warminster into Center City, ride the subway to whatever destination is on for the day. A great thing about begin over 65 is that SEPTA is free. Woo hoo.
Just to clarify. Regional Rail for travel to/from stations located in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is Free. However it's Half Fare (50% of the Weekday Fare) for travel to/from New Jersey and the State of Delaware.
@@OldSchool-dr5ql They've also tightened restrictions. You used to be able to use a driver's license, PA senior ID card, etc. to ride. Now you need a special SEPTA Senior Key card. Try getting one of those in anything less than a couple of weeks.
Try getting a PATCO senior fare card. Last I looked you had to show up in person at Camden during a period of several hours on a Monday. Sounds like a Republican voter-registration system.
I lived right next to the glassboro station during college. I had a lot of people ask me about the schedule and sadly had to tell them there was none.
I`ve heard a rumour that MARC, the outfit that handles rail service in Maryland, is thinking about extending their Penn Line, which currently stops at Perryville, Maryland, all the way to Newark and Wilmington, Delaware......the thing about that is it would give riders in Washington, D.C. a chance to potentially travel all the way to NYC without using AMTRAK ,since SEPTA runs trains all the way to Wilmington and Newark in Delaware.
That does give them the option but because of how slow the service would be they wouldn’t want to do that. Amtrak would offer a faster nonstop option
If it were cheaper than Amtrak, it could work for broke people who have the time.
This would be pretty much how the majority of German regional services work. The end point of one system is the start of the next, so you can in theory traverse the entire country on regional rail. This obviously is rather pointless traveling from city center to city center, besides the lower cost. But, since these trains usually have spare capacity outside of rush hour, they introduced affordable group day passes valid after 9:00 and on weekends to encourage regional leisure travel on these services and it has been rather successful.
In many cases you’re origin and/or destination won’t be the city center long distance stations, so by avoiding backtracking regional rail can become rather competitive, if not faster on some journeys, especially for people living further away from the main cities.
In both my current and last city it’s faster to go to the state capitol by regional express train from my local station (mind you, a station within city limits), then by parallel non-stop high speed trains, because just by eliminating the need to go the central station they can make up their slower speeds and higher amount of stops. This obviously gets more attractive, the further people live outside the city. At a certain point backtracking just eats up all the time advantage you might have by using express/ highspeed services.
And don’t tell me „oh, but the distances are soooo much longer“. We’re talking about the northeast corridor. The distance between DC-Baltimore-Wilmington-Philly-Trenton-NY isn’t that different from Karlsruhe-Stuttgart-Ulm-Augsburg-Munich. Both have a direct highspeed service at a little under 3h. But here in Germany the same trip can also be made by three regional trains in under 5h for 72€ for 5 people while the highspeed ICE will set you back around 60€ per person. Especially for people not traveling the entire route this can make the regional trains a viable option. And more demand means better service for people who live along the routes.
Newtown is my hometown, when my dad purchased our house back in the early 1980s, he was excited because the station was a short walk away. But alas, the station was closed not even a year after moving in :( Today a good portion of what remains of the line has been converted into a very pleasant and very long paved bike/pedestrian path with deep woods surrounding it, a perfect place for a mid autumn hike. Best part of this path is how it passes right by Bryn Athyn, with its glorious cathedral and museum.
Beautiful community that's so full of NIMBY they closed the Newtown line.
newtown line needs to be reopened ASAP
Thanks Armchair Urbanist! I am using this video in my class to discuss Philly Transit that goes with a Harvard Business Review case study. Great job!
I visited Lancaster a few September’s ago and I was baffled about how Septa didn’t serve the what should have been four track station (and it’s electrified!) this is a great vid and I agree with these points, even as a non Philly resident
yeah either septa should extend to Harrisburg or Harrisburg should have its own commuter rail line that (at minimum) goes to Lancaster
@@alanthefisher Amtraks pennsylvanian line basically serves that purpose
There's a problem with restoring some of the lines, that being quite a bit of the unrestored lines (especially a large portion of the Fox Chase line) have been turned into parklands or demolished and built over.
I can see a return of the media Elwyn trains going to west Chester though, and maybe a partial extension of the Warminster line. the LDL not all the way to Bethlehem but it can be extended to Quakertown.
5:30 ahhh, so the railway basics that American railways are only 100 years behind getting to grips with!
Also to offer some constructive criticism, I think some more background would be nice, I appreciate Well There's You're Problem, but some additional explanation of what SEPTA's failing are and what good systems should look like would improve this I think.
I agree more background would be nice for the viewers that don't know Septa. Let's just say Septa could do better!
Cant believe Allentown/Bethlehem/easton isnt connected to Philly nor NJ&NYC
Damn
It's in the Amtrak wish list map to connect it to NYC
Yeah you have to take a bus. Used to do it occasionally but it costs $50
They used to be. And Scranton to NYC via the Lackawanna Cutoff. That line is and has been looked at for full restoration. NJT has rebuilt some of that line in NJ, and Amtrak has it on their 2035 system map all the way to Scranton. Other proposals extend the line farther west, so this line still has attention. As for the Lehigh Valley, the SEPTA main line from Bethlehem to Philly still exists. Bucks county has been vocal in getting this line reactivated, and I'm hopeful Montgomery and the Lehigh/Northampton County area would support this. SEPTA still owns the track all the way up and through Hellertown, ending at the yard entrance. The rails exist from Philly to just short of a now-removed crossing on California Rd, located NW of Quakertown just north of Pumping Station Rd (near PA 309). North of Lansdale, the rails are in real bad shape, with 5 mph speed limits, so full replacement will be required the entire length, and arches added to install overhead catenary wire. No land acquisition would be needed, making the project that much cheaper. Money would be needed for the last couple miles through the yard. I don't know if the original bridge over the Lehigh River, or the terminal in Bethlehem still exist, or would have to be replaced.
@@dtvjho Not sure if the rails are still in place above Coopersburg. Good luck putting track back on the with the NIMBYs in $aucon Valley... On a positive note, No bridge over the Lehigh required. The Reading and SEPTA Philly/Allentown trains stopped at Union Station in South Bethlehem. Beautifully restored, used as medical offices. The ex-Lehigh Valley main line on the south side of the river is used to access Allentown Union Station (still there, but empty).
There's a wiki article about a tunnel proposed around the time the Ben opened. I'm not able to post a link, but the name of the article is New_Jersey_Route_44T
thanks! I actually didn't know about this.
I watched this video a while ago. It talks about the proposal of a tunnel before the bridge was built.
th-cam.com/video/eNkPmVIUVow/w-d-xo.html
While speaking of proposed routes, the Roosevelt Subway comes to mind. An article on the Broad St Subway may be needed, as the original engineers in the 1920s put in 3 provisions for extensions. One in south Philly, one just north of Erie for Roosevelt Blvd, and a 3rd north of Olney meant to go up Stenton Ave. The Roosevelt line consistently sits at the top of the federal DOT's list of new starts that would bring in the most ridership, and separately the City has proposed sinking the two inner drives to convert them to an extension of the US 1 expressway in Bucks. No one has tried to combine the two, but with the Boulevard's 300ft right of way and configuration of 4 roadways (each 3 lanes wide), if the two inner roadways can become the expressway, the 4-track subway can be split so that 2 northbound tracks get placed under the northbound local roadway, and do the same on the southbound side. The entire project needs to run the entire length of Northeast Philly and terminate at the Neshaminy Mall so the Turnpike and Street Road (PA 132) can both be tied in (park and ride).
nasty amount of parking around those stadiums oh lord
Agreed. Also if you want to join in on ranting about terrible urban planning, we do have a discord!
I'm from Glassboro - hyper familiar with that station. My grandfather used to say that you could hop on a train in Pitman and go anywhere in the United States. It's a tragedy what we've done to this landmark infrastructure. I'm glad that the States are starting to realize this and make changes. Trains are not antiquated, they're a beautiful middle ground between the cost of planes and the freedom of cars. Just moved down to Tennessee and experienced the immense underwhelming nature of the Music City Star - it's due for a major upgrade.
having grown up in Levittown, my first response to the start of this video was: "Where the hell's his accent?" this elicited an automatic retort: "Jay, where's /your/ accent?" the scars I've been left with seem largely to be emotional. that makes me feel as happy as the delaware valley's leading news program
The Pennsylnavia used to run down the high line from Arsenal for the Army-Navy games. Poking around on the internet will find old pictures of the trains in South Philly. Much more built up down there now, but not an impossible venture.
Would also love to see the addition of some suburban ‘radial’ lines to run east-west and connect the spokes. Annoying to have to go all the way into town to go 10 miles west. Unlikely to ever happen as it would be horribly expensive - but we were dreaming anyway…
14:02 - The old trains of South Jersey never used the Delair Bridge to Philadelphia. The trains of South Jersey terminated at a ferry in Camden, after passing through Camden on a 'wall'. Either catch a ferry or transfer to the Ben Franklin bridge line at Broadway.
Interesting. I heard the Market-Frankford had a spur past the 2nd St station that went a bit south on Penns Landing for that ferry. It was ripped out in the 1950s.
16:05 ..the battleship NJ is huge.
16:45 ..you need a connection to Lakehurst, so we can get those transatlantic airship passengers.
Says one passenger to another on the Hindenberg, "Got a match?"
Loved the video. I can't explain how much time I have spent thinking about the same thing for North East Ohio. Crazy what we used to have and now I would be excited for anything that creates an option to not drive.
Great informative video. Most people don't know regional rail used to go all those places like , Quakertown and Newtown and Reading .
I watched a few of your videos but this one made me subscribe.
I live along the Bethlehem branch and there are two problems that prevent it from being restored to Bethlehem. The first is that the line is cut past Quakertown is no longer a right of way. The second is the c
Perkasie tunnel.
The Perkasie tunnel is in bad shape it needs to be religned. It is also single tracked and cannot be easily double tracked. Widening the tunnel would require blasting and as they have now built a development over there tunnel I doubt that they would be allowed to blast.
As someone who’s lived in the Lehigh valley my whole life, I’ve been wanting restoration of regional rail line to allentown for a while. I live close to the bucks county line, so anytime I go to the city I drive down to colmar to catch a train. Last time my friends and I met up in Philly, it was the weekend, and by the time we parted ways, it was an hour wait for the next train on the lansdale/doylestown line. But of course that next train didn’t go beyond lansdale, so I had to wait another hour to catch a train back to colmar. So agreed that frequency could be improved. Thankfully it was free comic book day so I had a lot to keep me occupied while I waited lol
7:12 The store Wawa was founded in Wawa PA, and the station is supposed to be close to company HQ. There actually is a connection here :-)
12:20 You have an eagle eye! I also noticed how no R-numbered routes ran into NJ over the Delair Bridge. Even SEPTA itself doesn't run services into NJ, except for the R7's terminus in Trenton. That alone needs to change, and that requires changes to PA laws to change SEPTA's board. (SEPTA dropped the R-numbers a few years ago but that didn't happen without criticism.) You noticed the lack of infrastructure in south Jersey?? That's been ongoing for over 60 years. North Jersey has long received the benefits and south Jersey feels neglected. Even NJ route 55 still hasn't been extended to the Jersey Shore, in spite of strong support from SJ counties and state legislators for decades. North Jersey keeps voting itself the money. In the 1980s SJ even thought of seceding from the north, it was that bad. 12:48 Yup, NJ's connection to each big city is just 2 tracks. We should be looking at a modern 6-track tunnel for NYC and 4 into Philly. Again politics, not a lack of money, keeps the antiques running. 16:19 That is the first time I've seen a tunnel proposal in that area, and I believe it would work! The only tunnels I've heard proposed would extend the Broad St Subway south under the river to National Park NJ, which is rural and not close to the population centers on the NJ side - your tunnel is perfectly situated!
And here I thought a Philly Special was when you hit someone in the head with a D-cell battery.
You pointed out the two things that I knew was a problem with this 😊
High fares fairs and low-frequency
They have a downtown tunnel and 100% electrification. Changing the two above things could basically turn it in to what the Germans see has an S-Bohn, and what I see as a short distance commuter rail that acts like a Metro in the downtown
The idea about the service to stadiums and navy yard with the CSX/SEPTA is pure genius! Because SEPTA keeps talking about extending the (orange line) subway from patterson Ave to the navy yard by extending the tunnel. Which is very expensive. About two miles of
Which is about two miles of drilling and wasted money. When already have an excellent infrastructure in place already. You just add some catenary wire, couple stations offer fast regular service from naval center city on a daily basis and express when the stadium have games and concerts. Imagine fast regional rail service from south Philly to center city to connect to wherever you need to go! You should send your idea to SEPTA ASPA!
The extension to Reading _IS_ happening, with an Amtrak Train.
I live in Newtown and I can tell you that restoring SEPTA service to here after 40 years would be revolutionary to the town. Right now Newtown residents have to drive down to Woodbourne station if they want to take the train into the city. Sadly I don't think the Newtown line will ever be restored; even though Newtown, Holland, Southampton, and Churchville all want it, places further down the line are blocking it, and portions of the route are already being converted into rail trails and the like.
it makes the most sense- giving rail access to philly , less cars on the roads -an extra way for people to get home when they close a line for weather- -and running electric as well
These are good ideas but the Center City Commuter Tunnel could not handle all these rail improvements. It been a known issue ttat the commuter tunnel is a choke point on the system. And makes it really hard for system expansion. Especially if you add a South Jersey rail system to the mix.
Theoretically it can. The tunnel can handle up to 60 trains an hour with the proper signal systems
This is bs. Problem with centre tunnel is, that it doesn’t have a proper signaling system.
@@justsamoo3480 thus making it a choke point as stated
The tunnel itself can handle plenty of trains with upgraded signalling, but the issue that there are too many at-grade conflicts between trains on either end of the tunnel. There need to be more grade-separated junctions in order to physically run S-Bahn levels of service.
I've been through that tunnel myself and I see what you mean especially since its a meeting point for all the lines on the regional rail so tons of bottlenecking. I dont really think a tunnel is essential for the delaware river like which was pointed out in this video but perhaps another bridge built near where the Delair bridge or replacing it entirely with more tracks. From there, a few other stops especially the north philadelphia stop or one stopping at girard ave and serving the philadelphia zoo or faimount park. just my perspective on this idea.
stumbled upon your channel out of nowhere, and given your subscriber count it seems like the algorithm has given you a jump. really good content, keep it up.
Same deal for me.
Loved the reference to Wawa and the new station... But oddly you did get one detail wrong.... There IS a Wawa at the new station and it may have played a serious roll in getting the political Wii to build that station. You see behind the trees in the artists rendition, maybe 2/10s mile walk away is Wawa the convince store corporate offices. And I know they have been interested in getting that station setup as a way to attract more young urban workers from Philly. Having a train stop so close to the office is definitely a plus.
That into music was oh, so, on spot.
it is crazy to me that only four years ago you only had 350 or so subs. you've come far in not that long
I love the use of the Action News theme song to start this video!
Went to grad school in Philadelphia. It was so nice having trains go everywhere I ever needed.
Amazing video. When I travel to Philadelphia, I drive from the Lehigh Valley to Colmar station. It would really be wonderful to take a train to Philadelphia from Bethlehem.
Or even Quakertown to save you some time on 309.
funny enough your chad lightrail vs virgin buses popped up on my recommended yesterday and then you post a new video, what could this mean?
I came from the same video
lol
The channel 6 theme song intro was honestly the best ever for a video from our area.
i remember my first time on the train from septa. they accidently forgot to switch the track and went the wrong way. the power went out and sat in the dark for like 30 minutes.
Little known fact, there is a station that never came to be under the Ben Franklin Bridge's Philly side, for trollies though, but that could work as a station
* "trolleys". Yeah, wierd, but that's the plural.
The Atlantic City Line was once an inter city rail line operated by Amtrak but that was a failure. That's why NJ Transit re-established it as a commuter rail line.
I remember when my sister lived in hatboro and my nephew was sick. I didn't have a car and had to depend on the regional rail. It was mainly hit and miss.
As a train commuter for the past twelve years I could go on and on about improvements but I’d settle for trains more often than once an hour and refunds for when trains are cancelled or late. Either way it’s still better than sitting on 95 or the schuylkill expressway every day.
There are a lot of thought provoking ideas here. The two I like best are: 1) increased trains; 2) extending the Norristown line and others. Running more trains wouldn't cost much, and it would generate more ridership. I and others don't use public transit simply because it's NOT CONVENIENT! Even if it goes where I want to, it oftentimes doesn't go when I want to. As for expanding the system, I'd say extending the Norristown and other electric lines would be easiest and cheapest to do.; as you pointed out, many of the catenary poles are still there.
I lived on Astor Street adjacent to the end of the Norristown line. Used to take it to Philly for the Thanksgiving parade and my favorite part was honestly looking at all of the decaying railroads and rail loading docks along the Norristown line. Would love to see the line extended again. It's just a too bad a ton of these closed rails are being pulled up, passenger or commercial.
I actually really want to go to Philadelphia within the next few years just for a blast from the past on SEPTA's amazingly out-of-date system.
You are right about out-of-date but the system works and probably better than most, as you will see how a world-class city shines while having so little. I am glad to see somebody seeking something of Philadelphia than relating to a fake boxer. So cityplanner - what city have you planned?
Hey Alan. Recently found your channel and have been thoroughly enjoying the content. Keep up the great work!
Have a request: when/if you have time, can you please make a video on the decline of WMATA (the DC metro), especially Metrorail? Having lived in northern Virginia for about 8 years, it is baffling and infuriating how bad the public transit system is around here. I've regularly travelled to Philly, NYC and Chicago over the years, and despite their own shortcomings, these cities are miles ahead of what passes for a subway system here in the nation's capital.
Great points Re tunnel connections!
The stadium line is a no brainer though. Where I’m from in Australia, we have a 5 year old stadium. It was designed with heavy rail in mind to move 80% of the spectators. A massive 8 platform station was built with high capacity signaling. There is very limited parking lots and any that are there, are purposely expensive. It’s designed to move 40,000 people within 45 minutes after the finish of the game. Trains are then sent onto dedicated platforms for different lines. No need to change trains in the CBD either.
I've been stewing over many things that would benefit that area. One of the things that has been on my mind, in particular, was separating SEPTA and Amtrak lines between Wilmington, Overbrook and Holmesburg Junction. Like how roadways can concur except there are designated sides between SEPTA Local lines and Amtrak (+NJT) intercity lines. Between those areas, it seems inefficient with all the interlocking that has to happen in order for SEPTA to work its way to and from the outer tracks within the city. If they were separate there, lines such as Chestnut Hill West, Airport, and Cynwyd Lines can deal with interlocking and not interfere with Amtrak's operations when joining up with the main lines. Considering the spaghetti trackage that either consist of flyovers and switches at Holmes, Zoo, Arsenal, Overbrook, and Holly Interlockings where trains enter, leave, cross over, or terminate.
I totally agree with you that there needs to be better frequency to the regional rail system. I think that the biggest issue preventing that from happening comes from the Federal Railroad Administration. That being that the FRA's rulebooks have failed to keep up with the needs of heavy-rail passenger services across the US, especially for those that operate on non-freight right of ways. I think that the FRA's books need to be tossed out the window and brought up to the 21st century, not the mid 20th.
Can’t wait for the Philly Subway video
You earned my subscription for featuring the Action News music.
Welcome to America, where the freight trains are spectacularly long and the passenger trains are spectacularly short
I like this video about Philadelphia and South Jersey rail services. Lets see if their is a solution to fix these rail services including the Cape May rail line.
Very interesting, but I want to highlight that you have under Small Fixes: go from 1tph to 3-4+tph. Tripling/quadrupling the number of trains you have on a line would be a massive and costly undertaking.
Yeah I've gotten multiple comments on this. I assume if something like this ever did happen they'd either make more adjacent tracks or stub tracks into Jefferson station and not continue to 30th Street.
@@alanthefisher Suburban station has 8 tracks, so if the link to Market East were ever expanded, SEPTA could build 2 more tracks on the north side and have immediate tie-ins at Suburban.
I always wondered why NJT NEC service doesn't run directly to Philly. Can someone explain that to me?
That just would not be practical.
Septa owns the line, the West Chester Railroad leases it, the New Hope and Ivyland owns the line from New Hope to Warminster. The Fox Chase line would have issues because there are buildings and such in the way for the right of way to even get out of Fox Chase, other than that great video!
Actually the fox chase line ROW still exists as single track all the way into Newtown. Of course tracks are largely gone, & many grade crossings and dilapidated bridges are cost prohibitive.
I always wondered if Atlantic City could be re-fitted from gambling to an inter-modal ship / rail / truck industry...ROW's could be adapted for container freight, and NJ could bypass the shared Port Authority and flip off NY's cut of the action. But environmentalist's eyes would start twitching and they'd have a conniption if "dredging" is uttered.
Another overlooked aspect is developing the Atlantic City airport and having a high-speed line into Philly.
Itd be interesting to see videos on UTAX and DART/TM/TEXrail/TRe
Donoteat01 subscriber here. Oh boi i'm loving this channel.
15:31
engie gneer
" Spy's sappi'n my tunnel! "
" Tunnel down! "
German train (S-Bahn) operator here: I kinda laughed at the quote at 4:44. I thought our S-Bahn system is kinda dumb because we have some lines on wich trains arrive in 30 minute intervals outside of the city center. (at least in cities like Frankfurt/Main and Stuttgart wich do not even have a million inhabitants) But I looked up the population of Philadelphia. You have 1,5 million people living there? Unbelievable!
This is what was left after the really, really dark era that was the 1950s-1980s for US public transportation systems. In some cities much worse stuff happened, like the complete end of all commuter rail services, owing to non-viability. But increasingly, this is beginning to be reversed. Unfortunately, in the US, we are out of practice when it comes to building things cost-efficiently and reasonably close to schedule. But we are building out more networks, bit by bit, because it is what people want. People are not learning to drive and often do not trust autonomous cars, and are too cheap for cars anyway.
The warminster extended to...Delaware? It does already, that's the Newark/Marcus Hook line?
Also, the issue with restoring service is that the WaWa project costs hundreds of millions for all of a couple miles. They also replaced all the catenary in the process.
So i like this but me working at csx will tell you that they wont allow the extension into south philly. Intermodal is about to expand and they’re getting autoracks soon. So more volume. Also conrail is still active and owns the high line which allows the NS to come down to delaware from abrams in KOP. I like the idea but the port expanding and more car imports means its gonna be unlikely
A lot of the small fixes are already in the works, and some of the larger fixes might actually be in the works, too. But the biggest of all might need some political persuasion.
Why has there never really been a direct rail line to Tom's River?
OMG, The Philly news sounder, I've been out of the area for 22 years, it's a homesickness to hear.
Hey I've a suggestion. Make a video about the economy of a railway and how efficient it is compared to other forms of transporters @Alan Fisher
Our family lived in Warminster until 76 and I can't believe I remember that jingle.
Has the quarantine spurred on some creativity into my third most favorite public transport channel ?
Happy to see you back in action :)
I joke in the title screen at the very end that it only required a pandemic to finish this.
What is the elevated station shown between 4:38 and 5:31? It is the first time I've seen a vertical curve (implying a non-level surface) on a major elevated station. Also, what are the grades on either side of the vertical curve? The only other major station I know has a vertical curve and non-level surface is the Pennsylvania Station in New York. It has a vertical curve in the center right under Madison Square Garden with grades of +/-0.4% on either side.
Taking SEPTA to Wawa Station is possibly the most Philly thing ever, short of flinging a D-cell battery at Santa Claus.
The West Chester railroad does NOT own the line. They lease the rails from septa. SEPTA owns the entire line to West Chester
Tbh I wasn't aware of that. But I still wonder when septa re-expanses all the way to West Chester will they just exist together? Or will the WCRR have to move?
@@alanthefisher I grew up in Philly and worked for septa RRD for 8 years as an engineer, I can safely say septa will never go to west chester ago. Back in 2000 when I first hired there, they been talking about going to wawa and 20 years later, the tracks still haven't been extended 3 miles to wawa.
@@ghostengineer Thanks for the information, and that's really neat that you where an engineer for septa! I know its hard to believe, but they have made progress rebuilding the wawa extension. I do agree with you that it will take awhile before any thought of rebuilding the rest of the tracks to West Chester happen.
Here's a video of the recent construction at the new Wawa station: th-cam.com/video/G4vWU7jypEw/w-d-xo.html
@@alanthefisher I was fishing Chester creek right there a few months back, there definitely doing work.
You need to look at Thameslink in the UK to see how regional transport works. I'm 25 miles North of London, trains into the City of London every 7 minutes, dual voltage 25KAC overhead and 750VDC 3rd. rail South of the River.
13:08 God Alan you have a gift for making stuff entertaining and at the same time informative
A lot of electric vehicles types in Philly without battery power.